Digital BW, The Print

I'm having the darnest time getting a comprehensive comparison of the
Nikon LS5000 and the Minolta 5400 compared to my Canon FS4000.  I know
the newer scanners have lots of new features, faster scanning, better
bit depth, ICE x 4, etc.

What I want to know is, do either of these scanners work better with
B&W negatives, OR pull better shadow detail with slides, than the Canon.

I already have the Canon and can live with its limitations.  But I'd
consider upgrading if the image quality were noticeably better.

All comments w/b appreciated!  Thanks!

Robert Ades

Robert,

Shortly after its announcement I had the opportunity to test and report on
the Minolta Dimage Scan Elite 5400, which appeared in Shutterbug magazine
some issues back. I also tested and reported on the Canon 4000FS some months
before. I have not reviewed a Nikon scanner for some time, not because I
have any issue with the scanner itself as it is very fine hardware, but
because the software is the worst in its class and the scanner is on that
basis grossly over-priced.

The one outstanding feature, especially applied to scanning B&W silver-based
film is the 5400dpi optical resolution. That is a distinct advantage not
just because it will natively support making 16x24 inch by 300dpi scans, but
the high resolution avoids a pattern interference problem with film grain,
particularly with grainier film processed with acutance developers (low
sodium sulfite formula¹s) like Acufine and particularly Rodinal. In
addition, the Minolta has a Grain Dissolver feature which is actually a very
fine diffusion filter, which combined with the scanners tube light source
that also reduces apparent graininess and avoids highlight blocking, which
can occur with some 35mm dedicated scanners with a more collimated light
source (like the difference printing with a diffusion versus and condenser
enlarger).

If it makes any difference, being an old f... With 3/4 of my film library in
B&W, my reaction after testing the Minolta was to ask for invoice sending
Minolta a check instead of returning the scanner.

Regards, David B. Brooks
Shutterbug Magazine
E-mail: fotografx@...




On 10/15/04 8:07 PM, "Robert" <la_native@...> wrote:

> 
> I'm having the darnest time getting a comprehensive comparison of the
> Nikon LS5000 and the Minolta 5400 compared to my Canon FS4000.  I know
> the newer scanners have lots of new features, faster scanning, better
> bit depth, ICE x 4, etc.
> 
> What I want to know is, do either of these scanners work better with
> B&W negatives, OR pull better shadow detail with slides, than the Canon.
> 
> I already have the Canon and can live with its limitations.  But I'd
> consider upgrading if the image quality were noticeably better.
> 
> All comments w/b appreciated!  Thanks!
> 
> Robert Ades
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
> they are often being updated.
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
> page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
> Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership
> without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
> printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the
> membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and
> Moderators. See “Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines” in the Files section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> 
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE “OWNER” AND
> “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU
> FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY
> DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL,
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> DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW,
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> 
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

There have been a number of threads recently comparing the 2 scanners on the
newsgroup comp.periphs.scanners and that would be the best place to ask
this.  The threads did not deal specifically with B&W scanning so it may
well result in some new information for members there.

Maris

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Robert" <la_native@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, October 15, 2004 10:07 PM
Subject: [Digital BW] Film Scanners




I'm having the darnest time getting a comprehensive comparison of the
Nikon LS5000 and the Minolta 5400 compared to my Canon FS4000.  I know
the newer scanners have lots of new features, faster scanning, better
bit depth, ICE x 4, etc.

What I want to know is, do either of these scanners work better with
B&W negatives, OR pull better shadow detail with slides, than the Canon.

David, thank you for your informative comments.  Given you positive
feelings about the Minolta, is there a noticeable difference compared
to the older Canon fs4000?  Yes, there's an additional 1,400dpi
resolution, but does that provide for better tonality?

With my Canon, the best film for scanning is the b&w chromogenics (TCN
and Xp-2).  Tri-x and most silver-based films don't look so great --
the grain tends to block up and mess with the tone transitions.

-Robert Ades

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "David B. Brooks"
<fotografx@m...> wrote:
> Robert,
> 
> Shortly after its announcement I had the opportunity to test and
report on
> the Minolta Dimage Scan Elite 5400, which appeared in Shutterbug
magazine
> some issues back. I also tested and reported on the Canon 4000FS
some months
> before. I have not reviewed a Nikon scanner for some time, not because I
> have any issue with the scanner itself as it is very fine hardware, but
> because the software is the worst in its class and the scanner is on
that
> basis grossly over-priced.
> 
> The one outstanding feature, especially applied to scanning B&W
silver-based
> film is the 5400dpi optical resolution. That is a distinct advantage not
> just because it will natively support making 16x24 inch by 300dpi
scans, but
> the high resolution avoids a pattern interference problem with film
grain,
> particularly with grainier film processed with acutance developers (low
> sodium sulfite formula¹s) like Acufine and particularly Rodinal. In
> addition, the Minolta has a Grain Dissolver feature which is
actually a very
> fine diffusion filter, which combined with the scanners tube light
source
> that also reduces apparent graininess and avoids highlight blocking,
which
> can occur with some 35mm dedicated scanners with a more collimated light
> source (like the difference printing with a diffusion versus and
condenser
> enlarger).
> 
> If it makes any difference, being an old f... With 3/4 of my film
library in
> B&W, my reaction after testing the Minolta was to ask for invoice
sending
> Minolta a check instead of returning the scanner.
> 
> Regards, David B. Brooks
> Shutterbug Magazine
> E-mail: fotografx@m...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On 10/15/04 8:07 PM, "Robert" <la_native@h...> wrote:
> 
> > 
> > I'm having the darnest time getting a comprehensive comparison of the
> > Nikon LS5000 and the Minolta 5400 compared to my Canon FS4000.  I know
> > the newer scanners have lots of new features, faster scanning, better
> > bit depth, ICE x 4, etc.
> > 
> > What I want to know is, do either of these scanners work better with
> > B&W negatives, OR pull better shadow detail with slides, than the
Canon.
> > 
> > I already have the Canon and can live with its limitations.  But I'd
> > consider upgrading if the image quality were noticeably better.
> > 
> > All comments w/b appreciated!  Thanks!
> > 
> > Robert Ades
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other
resources as
> > they are often being updated.
> > 
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> > 
> > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you
wish to
> > unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting
this same
> > page.
> > 
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages
to keep
> > them short.
> > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
flames.
> > Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
membership
> > without notice.
> > - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of
digital B&W
> > printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be
removed from the
> > membership.
> > - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
> > guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group
Owner and
> > Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files
section:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> > 
> > BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE
PRINT
> > YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND
> > "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE
LIABLE TO YOU
> > FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR
EXEMPLARY
> > DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF
PROFITS, GOODWILL,
> > USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  "OWNER" AND
"MODERATORS" OF
> > DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE
POSSIBILITY OF SUCH
> > DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE
DIGITAL BW,
> > THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION
OF YOUR
> > TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD
PARTY ON THE
> > DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER
RELATING TO THE
> > DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> >  
> >  ADVERTISEMENT
> >  
> >
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> >
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> > 
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<mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsub

> > scribe> 
> > *  
> > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
> > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Robert,

The extra 1400dpi for one does result in smoother, better tonality. And as I
mentioned regarding grain, the Minolta minimizes apparent graininess very
considerably. Most of the problems a lot of people have scanning silver
based B&W film comes from the fact the ramping algorithms in the driver
software for B&W film are not well developed ­ most of the R&D by scanner
companies has been applied to scanning color positives. My solution is to
scan silver-based black and white as a positive in 48-bit RAW files, which I
then correct in several steps before and after inverting from a negative
image to a positive. This technique I wrote up as a how-to in Shutterbug
magazine about 3 years ago.

I recently did a couple of hundred 17x22 prints testing the Epson Pro 4000,
and many of them were 35mm images scanned with the Minolta 5400 with the
image size printed set at 15x20 inches. When I did all my printing in a wet
darkroom I seldom printed 35mm larger than 11x14. Now some of those same
images look even better, larger, after scanning and printing digitally.

Regards, David B. Brooks
Shutterbug Magazine
E-mail: fotografx@...




On 10/15/04 10:12 PM, "Robert" <la_native@...> wrote:

> 
> David, thank you for your informative comments.  Given you positive
> feelings about the Minolta, is there a noticeable difference compared
> to the older Canon fs4000?  Yes, there's an additional 1,400dpi
> resolution, but does that provide for better tonality?
> 
> With my Canon, the best film for scanning is the b&w chromogenics (TCN
> and Xp-2).  Tri-x and most silver-based films don't look so great --
> the grain tends to block up and mess with the tone transitions.
> 
> -Robert Ades
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "David B. Brooks"
> <fotografx@m...> wrote:
>> > Robert,
>> > 
>> > Shortly after its announcement I had the opportunity to test and
> report on
>> > the Minolta Dimage Scan Elite 5400, which appeared in Shutterbug
> magazine
>> > some issues back. I also tested and reported on the Canon 4000FS
> some months
>> > before. I have not reviewed a Nikon scanner for some time, not because I
>> > have any issue with the scanner itself as it is very fine hardware, but
>> > because the software is the worst in its class and the scanner is on
> that
>> > basis grossly over-priced.
>> > 
>> > The one outstanding feature, especially applied to scanning B&W
> silver-based
>> > film is the 5400dpi optical resolution. That is a distinct advantage not
>> > just because it will natively support making 16x24 inch by 300dpi
> scans, but
>> > the high resolution avoids a pattern interference problem with film
> grain,
>> > particularly with grainier film processed with acutance developers (low
>> > sodium sulfite formula¹s) like Acufine and particularly Rodinal. In
>> > addition, the Minolta has a Grain Dissolver feature which is
> actually a very
>> > fine diffusion filter, which combined with the scanners tube light
> source
>> > that also reduces apparent graininess and avoids highlight blocking,
> which
>> > can occur with some 35mm dedicated scanners with a more collimated light
>> > source (like the difference printing with a diffusion versus and
> condenser
>> > enlarger).
>> > 
>> > If it makes any difference, being an old f... With 3/4 of my film
> library in
>> > B&W, my reaction after testing the Minolta was to ask for invoice
> sending
>> > Minolta a check instead of returning the scanner.
>> > 
>> > Regards, David B. Brooks
>> > Shutterbug Magazine
>> > E-mail: fotografx@m...
>> > 
>> > 
>> > 
>> > 
>> > On 10/15/04 8:07 PM, "Robert" <la_native@h...> wrote:
>> > 
>>> > > 
>>> > > I'm having the darnest time getting a comprehensive comparison of the
>>> > > Nikon LS5000 and the Minolta 5400 compared to my Canon FS4000.  I know
>>> > > the newer scanners have lots of new features, faster scanning, better
>>> > > bit depth, ICE x 4, etc.
>>> > > 
>>> > > What I want to know is, do either of these scanners work better with
>>> > > B&W negatives, OR pull better shadow detail with slides, than the
> Canon.
>>> > > 
>>> > > I already have the Canon and can live with its limitations.  But I'd
>>> > > consider upgrading if the image quality were noticeably better.
>>> > > 
>>> > > All comments w/b appreciated!  Thanks!
>>> > > 
>>> > > Robert Ades
>>> > > 
>>> > > 
>>> > > 
>>> > > 
>>> > > 
>>> > > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other
> resources as
>>> > > they are often being updated.
>>> > > 
>>> > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>>> > > 
>>> > > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you
> wish to
>>> > > unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting
> this same
>>> > > page.
>>> > > 
>>> > > Please follow these basic guidelines:
>>> > > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages
> to keep
>>> > > them short.
>>> > > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
> flames.
>>> > > Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
> membership
>>> > > without notice.
>>> > > - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of
> digital B&W
>>> > > printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be
> removed from the
>>> > > membership.
>>> > > - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
>>> > > guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group
> Owner and
>>> > > Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files
> section:
>>> > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
>>> > > 
>>> > > BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE
> PRINT
>>> > > YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND
>>> > > "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE
> LIABLE TO YOU
>>> > > FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR
> EXEMPLARY
>>> > > DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF
> PROFITS, GOODWILL,
>>> > > USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  "OWNER" AND
> "MODERATORS" OF
>>> > > DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE
> POSSIBILITY OF SUCH
>>> > > DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE
> DIGITAL BW,
>>> > > THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION
> OF YOUR
>>> > > TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD
> PARTY ON THE
>>> > > DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER
> RELATING TO THE
>>> > > DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
>>> > > 
>>> > > 
>>> > > 
>>> > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>>> > >  
>>> > >  ADVERTISEMENT
>>> > >  
>>> > >
> <http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=1290hofu6/M=315388.5497957.6576270.3001176/D=grou
>>> > >
> ps/S=1705019182:HM/EXP=1097982492/A=2372354/R=0/SIG=12id813k2/*https://www.orc
>>> > > hardbank.com/hcs/hcsapplication?pf=PLApply&media=EMYHNL40F21004SS>
>>> > > 
>>> > > 
>>> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
>>> > > * To visit your group on the web, go to:
>>> > > * http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/
>>> > > *  
>>> > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>>> > > * DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>>> > >
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>>> > > scribe> 
>>> > > *  
>>> > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
>>> > > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .
>>> > > 
>> > 
>> > 
>> > 
>> > 
>> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
> they are often being updated.
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
> page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
> Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership
> without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
> printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the
> membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and
> Moderators. See “Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines” in the Files section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> 
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE “OWNER” AND
> “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU
> FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY
> DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL,
> USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  “OWNER” AND “MODERATORS” OF
> DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH
> DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW,
> THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR
> TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE
> DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE
> DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> 
> 
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>  
>  ADVERTISEMENT
>  
> <http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=1296v6e5b/M=315388.5497957.6576270.3001176/D=grou
> ps/S=1705019182:HM/EXP=1097989966/A=2372354/R=0/SIG=12id813k2/*https://www.orc
> hardbank.com/hcs/hcsapplication?pf=PLApply&media=EMYHNL40F21004SS>
> 
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> * To visit your group on the web, go to:
> * http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/
> *  
> * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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> scribe> 
> *  
> * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
> <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .
> 




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

David, thank you so much for your input. This is the kind of 
information I have been looking all over for, as I am on the brink 
of buying the 5400 for B&W negatives. Perhaps you could elaborate a 
little on your workflow (or is it posted on Shutterbug web site?). 
Thanks again ...

Ed Metz
www.hwy90.com

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "David B. 
Brooks" <fotografx@m...> wrote:
> Robert,
> 
> The extra 1400dpi for one does result in smoother, better 
tonality. And as I
> mentioned regarding grain, the Minolta minimizes apparent 
graininess very
> considerably. Most of the problems a lot of people have scanning 
silver
> based B&W film comes from the fact the ramping algorithms in the 
driver
> software for B&W film are not well developed ­ most of the R&D
by 
scanner
> companies has been applied to scanning color positives. My 
solution is to
> scan silver-based black and white as a positive in 48-bit RAW 
files, which I
> then correct in several steps before and after inverting from a 
negative
> image to a positive. This technique I wrote up as a how-to in 
Shutterbug
> magazine about 3 years ago.
> 
> I recently did a couple of hundred 17x22 prints testing the Epson 
Pro 4000,
> and many of them were 35mm images scanned with the Minolta 5400 
with the
> image size printed set at 15x20 inches. When I did all my printing 
in a wet
> darkroom I seldom printed 35mm larger than 11x14. Now some of 
those same
> images look even better, larger, after scanning and printing 
digitally.

> 
> Regards, David B. Brooks
> Shutterbug Magazine
> E-mail: fotografx@m...
> 
>

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "David B. Brooks"
<fotografx@m...> wrote:

> then correct in several steps before and after inverting from a negative
> image to a positive. This technique I wrote up as a how-to in Shutterbug
> magazine about 3 years ago.

Hello David, inverting a positive scan seems to be what many people
recommend and what I already tried. Probably there is a lot to
improove in my technique, I looked on the Shutterbug website but did
not find your article - is it online? 

Thanks, bernie

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Bernie Ess"
<albatros-@g...> wrote:
> 
> improove in my technique, I looked on the Shutterbug website but did
> not find your article - is it online? 
> 
> Thanks, bernie

Here's what you're looking for:
http://www.shutterbug.net/features/0902sb_bw/index.html

David, I have avoided most of the problems many people have with B&W 
by using Vuescan, which AFAIK, has delivered great scans.  

My problem is with higher speed silver-based films like Tri-X and 
faster, where the grain becomes too clumpy and messes with 
tonaltiy.  My solution for the past few years has been to use 
chomogenic films like TCN and XP-2, which deliver really smooth, 
creamy results.

I gather that the newest Nikon scanners probably wouldn't improve 
the grain problem all that much, since they use LEDs as a light 
source.  But I wonder if the Minolta 5400 can do better.

I'm also curious if either scanner can pull better shadow details 
out of color slides than my Canon, which is quite lacking in that 
area.

Robert Ades

-- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "David B. 
Brooks" <fotografx@m...> wrote:
> Robert,
> 
> The extra 1400dpi for one does result in smoother, better 
tonality. And as I
> mentioned regarding grain, the Minolta minimizes apparent 
graininess very
> considerably. Most of the problems a lot of people have scanning 
silver
> based B&W film comes from the fact the ramping algorithms in the 
driver
> software for B&W film are not well developed ­ most of the R&D by 
scanner
> companies has been applied to scanning color positives. My 
solution is to
> scan silver-based black and white as a positive in 48-bit RAW 
files, which I
> then correct in several steps before and after inverting from a 
negative
> image to a positive. This technique I wrote up as a how-to in 
Shutterbug
> magazine about 3 years ago.
> 
> I recently did a couple of hundred 17x22 prints testing the Epson 
Pro 4000,
> and many of them were 35mm images scanned with the Minolta 5400 
with the
> image size printed set at 15x20 inches. When I did all my printing 
in a wet
> darkroom I seldom printed 35mm larger than 11x14. Now some of 
those same
> images look even better, larger, after scanning and printing 
digitally.
> 
> Regards, David B. Brooks
> Shutterbug Magazine
> E-mail: fotografx@m...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On 10/15/04 10:12 PM, "Robert" <la_native@h...> wrote:
> 
> > 
> > David, thank you for your informative comments.  Given you 
positive
> > feelings about the Minolta, is there a noticeable difference 
compared
> > to the older Canon fs4000?  Yes, there's an additional 1,400dpi
> > resolution, but does that provide for better tonality?
> > 
> > With my Canon, the best film for scanning is the b&w 
chromogenics (TCN
> > and Xp-2).  Tri-x and most silver-based films don't look so 
great --
> > the grain tends to block up and mess with the tone transitions.
> > 
> > -Robert Ades
> > 
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "David B. 
Brooks"
> > <fotografx@m...> wrote:
> >> > Robert,
> >> > 
> >> > Shortly after its announcement I had the opportunity to test 
and
> > report on
> >> > the Minolta Dimage Scan Elite 5400, which appeared in 
Shutterbug
> > magazine
> >> > some issues back. I also tested and reported on the Canon 
4000FS
> > some months
> >> > before. I have not reviewed a Nikon scanner for some time, 
not because I
> >> > have any issue with the scanner itself as it is very fine 
hardware, but
> >> > because the software is the worst in its class and the 
scanner is on
> > that
> >> > basis grossly over-priced.
> >> > 
> >> > The one outstanding feature, especially applied to scanning 
B&W
> > silver-based
> >> > film is the 5400dpi optical resolution. That is a distinct 
advantage not
> >> > just because it will natively support making 16x24 inch by 
300dpi
> > scans, but
> >> > the high resolution avoids a pattern interference problem 
with film
> > grain,
> >> > particularly with grainier film processed with acutance 
developers (low
> >> > sodium sulfite formula¹s) like Acufine and particularly 
Rodinal. In
> >> > addition, the Minolta has a Grain Dissolver feature which is
> > actually a very
> >> > fine diffusion filter, which combined with the scanners tube 
light
> > source
> >> > that also reduces apparent graininess and avoids highlight 
blocking,
> > which
> >> > can occur with some 35mm dedicated scanners with a more 
collimated light
> >> > source (like the difference printing with a diffusion versus 
and
> > condenser
> >> > enlarger).
> >> > 
> >> > If it makes any difference, being an old f... With 3/4 of my 
film
> > library in
> >> > B&W, my reaction after testing the Minolta was to ask for 
invoice
> > sending
> >> > Minolta a check instead of returning the scanner.
> >> > 
> >> > Regards, David B. Brooks
> >> > Shutterbug Magazine
> >> > E-mail: fotografx@m...
> >> > 
> >> > 
> >> > 
> >> > 
> >> > On 10/15/04 8:07 PM, "Robert" <la_native@h...> wrote:
> >> > 
> >>> > > 
> >>> > > I'm having the darnest time getting a comprehensive 
comparison of the
> >>> > > Nikon LS5000 and the Minolta 5400 compared to my Canon 
FS4000.  I know
> >>> > > the newer scanners have lots of new features, faster 
scanning, better
> >>> > > bit depth, ICE x 4, etc.
> >>> > > 
> >>> > > What I want to know is, do either of these scanners work 
better with
> >>> > > B&W negatives, OR pull better shadow detail with slides, 
than the
> > Canon.
> >>> > > 
> >>> > > I already have the Canon and can live with its 
limitations.  But I'd
> >>> > > consider upgrading if the image quality were noticeably 
better.
> >>> > > 
> >>> > > All comments w/b appreciated!  Thanks!
> >>> > > 
> >>> > > Robert Ades
> >>> > > 
> >>> > > 
> >>> > > 
> >>> > > 
> >>> > > 
> >>> > > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and 
other
> > resources as
> >>> > > they are often being updated.
> >>> > > 
> >>> > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >>> > > 
> >>> > > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, 
or you
> > wish to
> >>> > > unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by 
visiting
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> >>> > > page.
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> >> > 
> >> > 
> >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
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> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Bernie,

I responded to this question by direct e-mail.

Regards, David B. Brooks
Shutterbug Magazine
E-mail: fotografx@...




On 10/16/04 5:58 AM, "Bernie Ess" <albatros-@...> wrote:

> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "David B. Brooks"
> <fotografx@m...> wrote:
> 
>> > then correct in several steps before and after inverting from a negative
>> > image to a positive. This technique I wrote up as a how-to in Shutterbug
>> > magazine about 3 years ago.
> 
> Hello David, inverting a positive scan seems to be what many people
> recommend and what I already tried. Probably there is a lot to
> improove in my technique, I looked on the Shutterbug website but did
> not find your article - is it online?
> 
> Thanks, bernie
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
> they are often being updated.
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
> page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
> Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership
> without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
> printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the
> membership.
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> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and
> Moderators. See “Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines” in the Files section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> 
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> 




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Robert,

Sorry, but first of all O don¹t think much at all for VueScan, but then you
get what you pay for ­ nuff said. However, from my experience none of the
scanner software to date is really developed to deal with the unique
attributes of a scanned silver-based  B&W film negative. That¹s why I have
for some time now just done a RAW 48-bit scan direct to a TIFF file and then
do the correction and inversion in Photoshop.

I grant the chromogenic B&W C-41 processed films are easy to scan. But dye
clouds do not produce the fine acutance of a silver halide image.

Grainier silver 35mm B&W films are a real challenge to scan, almost
impossible with some dedicated 35mm scanners because the effect of the
optics and light source tend to block highlights and there is an
interference effect between grain and the pattern of pixels that exaggerates
apparent graininess, particularly with 2700/2800dpi scanners, but still with
4000dpi scanners.

Besides the advantage of 5400dpi optical resolution the Minolta Dimage Scan
Elite 5400 has a Grain Dissolver feature, which is a very fine diffuser in
the optical path which besides reducing graininess as a diffusion enlarger
does, it also reduces highlight blocking.

The higher Dmax of current 35mm scanners is a definite advantage in
obtaining as much shadow detail as there is in a slide image.

Regards, David B. Brooks
Shutterbug Magazine
E-mail: fotografx@mindspring.com




On 10/16/04 11:31 AM, "Robert" <la_native@...> wrote:

> 
> David, I have avoided most of the problems many people have with B&W
> by using Vuescan, which AFAIK, has delivered great scans.
> 
> My problem is with higher speed silver-based films like Tri-X and
> faster, where the grain becomes too clumpy and messes with
> tonaltiy.  My solution for the past few years has been to use
> chomogenic films like TCN and XP-2, which deliver really smooth,
> creamy results.
> 
> I gather that the newest Nikon scanners probably wouldn't improve
> the grain problem all that much, since they use LEDs as a light
> source.  But I wonder if the Minolta 5400 can do better.
> 
> I'm also curious if either scanner can pull better shadow details
> out of color slides than my Canon, which is quite lacking in that
> area.
> 
> Robert Ades
> 
> -- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "David B.
> Brooks" <fotografx@m...> wrote:
>> > Robert,
>> > 
>> > The extra 1400dpi for one does result in smoother, better
> tonality. And as I
>> > mentioned regarding grain, the Minolta minimizes apparent
> graininess very
>> > considerably. Most of the problems a lot of people have scanning
> silver
>> > based B&W film comes from the fact the ramping algorithms in the
> driver
>> > software for B&W film are not well developed ­ most of the R&D by
> scanner
>> > companies has been applied to scanning color positives. My
> solution is to
>> > scan silver-based black and white as a positive in 48-bit RAW
> files, which I
>> > then correct in several steps before and after inverting from a
> negative
>> > image to a positive. This technique I wrote up as a how-to in
> Shutterbug
>> > magazine about 3 years ago.
>> > 
>> > I recently did a couple of hundred 17x22 prints testing the Epson
> Pro 4000,
>> > and many of them were 35mm images scanned with the Minolta 5400
> with the
>> > image size printed set at 15x20 inches. When I did all my printing
> in a wet
>> > darkroom I seldom printed 35mm larger than 11x14. Now some of
> those same
>> > images look even better, larger, after scanning and printing
> digitally.
>> > 
>> > Regards, David B. Brooks
>> > Shutterbug Magazine
>> > E-mail: fotografx@m...
>> > 
>> > 
>> > 
>> > 
>> > On 10/15/04 10:12 PM, "Robert" <la_native@h...> wrote:
>> > 
>>> > > 
>>> > > David, thank you for your informative comments.  Given you
> positive
>>> > > feelings about the Minolta, is there a noticeable difference
> compared
>>> > > to the older Canon fs4000?  Yes, there's an additional 1,400dpi
>>> > > resolution, but does that provide for better tonality?
>>> > > 
>>> > > With my Canon, the best film for scanning is the b&w
> chromogenics (TCN
>>> > > and Xp-2).  Tri-x and most silver-based films don't look so
> great --
>>> > > the grain tends to block up and mess with the tone transitions.
>>> > > 
>>> > > -Robert Ades
>>> > > 
>>> > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "David B.
> Brooks"
>>> > > <fotografx@m...> wrote:
>>>>> > >> > Robert,
>>>>> > >> > 
>>>>> > >> > Shortly after its announcement I had the opportunity to test
> and
>>> > > report on
>>>>> > >> > the Minolta Dimage Scan Elite 5400, which appeared in
> Shutterbug
>>> > > magazine
>>>>> > >> > some issues back. I also tested and reported on the Canon
> 4000FS
>>> > > some months
>>>>> > >> > before. I have not reviewed a Nikon scanner for some time,
> not because I
>>>>> > >> > have any issue with the scanner itself as it is very fine
> hardware, but
>>>>> > >> > because the software is the worst in its class and the
> scanner is on
>>> > > that
>>>>> > >> > basis grossly over-priced.
>>>>> > >> > 
>>>>> > >> > The one outstanding feature, especially applied to scanning
> B&W
>>> > > silver-based
>>>>> > >> > film is the 5400dpi optical resolution. That is a distinct
> advantage not
>>>>> > >> > just because it will natively support making 16x24 inch by
> 300dpi
>>> > > scans, but
>>>>> > >> > the high resolution avoids a pattern interference problem
> with film
>>> > > grain,
>>>>> > >> > particularly with grainier film processed with acutance
> developers (low
>>>>> > >> > sodium sulfite formula¹s) like Acufine and particularly
> Rodinal. In
>>>>> > >> > addition, the Minolta has a Grain Dissolver feature which is
>>> > > actually a very
>>>>> > >> > fine diffusion filter, which combined with the scanners tube
> light
>>> > > source
>>>>> > >> > that also reduces apparent graininess and avoids highlight
> blocking,
>>> > > which
>>>>> > >> > can occur with some 35mm dedicated scanners with a more
> collimated light
>>>>> > >> > source (like the difference printing with a diffusion versus
> and
>>> > > condenser
>>>>> > >> > enlarger).
>>>>> > >> > 
>>>>> > >> > If it makes any difference, being an old f... With 3/4 of my
> film
>>> > > library in
>>>>> > >> > B&W, my reaction after testing the Minolta was to ask for
> invoice
>>> > > sending
>>>>> > >> > Minolta a check instead of returning the scanner.
>>>>> > >> > 
>>>>> > >> > Regards, David B. Brooks
>>>>> > >> > Shutterbug Magazine
>>>>> > >> > E-mail: fotografx@m...
>>>>> > >> > 
>>>>> > >> > 
>>>>> > >> > 
>>>>> > >> > 
>>>>> > >> > On 10/15/04 8:07 PM, "Robert" <la_native@h...> wrote:
>>>>> > >> > 
>>>>>>> > >>> > > 
>>>>>>> > >>> > > I'm having the darnest time getting a comprehensive
> comparison of the
>>>>>>> > >>> > > Nikon LS5000 and the Minolta 5400 compared to my Canon
> FS4000.  I know
>>>>>>> > >>> > > the newer scanners have lots of new features, faster
> scanning, better
>>>>>>> > >>> > > bit depth, ICE x 4, etc.
>>>>>>> > >>> > > 
>>>>>>> > >>> > > What I want to know is, do either of these scanners work
> better with
>>>>>>> > >>> > > B&W negatives, OR pull better shadow detail with slides,
> than the
>>> > > Canon.
>>>>>>> > >>> > > 
>>>>>>> > >>> > > I already have the Canon and can live with its
> limitations.  But I'd
>>>>>>> > >>> > > consider upgrading if the image quality were noticeably
> better.
>>>>>>> > >>> > > 
>>>>>>> > >>> > > All comments w/b appreciated!  Thanks!
>>>>>>> > >>> > > 
>>>>>>> > >>> > > Robert Ades
>>>>>>> > >>> > > 
>>>>>>> > >>> > > 
>>>>>>> > >>> > > 
>>>>>>> > >>> > > 
>>>>>>> > >>> > > 
>>>>>>> > >>> > > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and
> other
>>> > > resources as
>>>>>>> > >>> > > they are often being updated.
>>>>>>> > >>> > > 
>>>>>>> > >>> > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>>>>>>> > >>> > > 
>>>>>>> > >>> > > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest,
> or you
>>> > > wish to
>>>>>>> > >>> > > unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by
> visiting
>>> > > this same
>>>>>>> > >>> > > page.
>>>>>>> > >>> > > 
>>>>>>> > >>> > > Please follow these basic guidelines:
>>>>>>> > >>> > > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier
> messages
>>> > > to keep
>>>>>>> > >>> > > them short.
>>>>>>> > >>> > > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal
> attacks or
>>> > > flames.
>>>>>>> > >>> > > Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed
> from the
>>> > > membership
>>>>>>> > >>> > > without notice.
>>>>>>> > >>> > > - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of
>>> > > digital B&W
>>>>>>> > >>> > > printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may
> be
>>> > > removed from the
>>>>>>> > >>> > > membership.
>>>>>>> > >>> > > - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group
> rules and
>>>>>>> > >>> > > guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of
> the group
>>> > > Owner and
>>>>>>> > >>> > > Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the
> Files
>>> > > section:
>>>>>>> > >>> > > 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
>>>>>>> > >>> > > 
>>>>>>> > >>> > > BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL
> BW, THE
>>> > > PRINT
>>>>>>> > >>> > > YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT
> THE "OWNER" AND
>>>>>>> > >>> > > "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL
> NOT BE
>>> > > LIABLE TO YOU
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi David,

That's interesting, I found the 5400 to be unrelentingly hard (contrast and grain to the max) when scanning retained-silver B&W film, and the grain dissolver only seemed to make a slight improvement. I can't fault the sharpness and for colour film, notably Kodachrome, it's a fantastic unit, but I've found that with certain hard negs it's very difficult to get a good tonal range without some fairly murderous moves with curves. That then brings out any incipient noise and grain aliasing problems, so it's a catch 22. I have several negs that look considerably better scanned on an Epson 3200 flatbed than they do on the Minolta, in terms of tonality but of course not sharpness. I've often wondered if the less directional lightsource of the Nikons would be a bit better in this respect, but I've never had the opportunity to perform a back-to-back comparison. I guess a lot of it comes down to the kind of look you're after -- for someone seeking the grainy, contrasty reportage look,
then the Minolta might be just the ticket.

Best regards,

-= mike =-

-----Original Message-----
From: David B. Brooks [mailto:fotografx@...] 
Sent: 16 October 2004 05:32
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Cc: la_native@...
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Film Scanners


Robert,

Shortly after its announcement I had the opportunity to test and report on the Minolta Dimage Scan Elite 5400, which appeared in Shutterbug magazine some issues back. I also tested and reported on the Canon 4000FS some months before. I have not reviewed a Nikon scanner for some time, not because I have any issue with the scanner itself as it is very fine hardware, but because the software is the worst in its class and the scanner is on that basis grossly over-priced.

The one outstanding feature, especially applied to scanning B&W silver-based film is the 5400dpi optical resolution. That is a distinct advantage not just because it will natively support making 16x24 inch by 300dpi scans, but the high resolution avoids a pattern interference problem with film grain, particularly with grainier film processed with acutance developers (low sodium sulfite formula¹s) like Acufine and particularly Rodinal. In addition, the Minolta has a Grain Dissolver feature which is actually a very fine diffusion filter, which combined with the scanners tube light source that also reduces apparent graininess and avoids highlight blocking, which can occur with some 35mm dedicated scanners with a more collimated light source (like the difference printing with a diffusion versus and condenser enlarger).

If it makes any difference, being an old f... With 3/4 of my film library in B&W, my reaction after testing the Minolta was to ask for invoice sending Minolta a check instead of returning the scanner.

Regards, David B. Brooks
Shutterbug Magazine
E-mail: fotografx@...




On 10/15/04 8:07 PM, "Robert" <la_native@...> wrote:

> 
> I'm having the darnest time getting a comprehensive comparison of the 
> Nikon LS5000 and the Minolta 5400 compared to my Canon FS4000.  I know 
> the newer scanners have lots of new features, faster scanning, better 
> bit depth, ICE x 4, etc.
> 
> What I want to know is, do either of these scanners work better with 
> B&W negatives, OR pull better shadow detail with slides, than the Canon.
> 
> I already have the Canon and can live with its limitations.  But I'd 
> consider upgrading if the image quality were noticeably better.
> 
> All comments w/b appreciated!  Thanks!
> 
> Robert Ades

==============================================================================
This message is for the sole use of the intended recipient. If you received this message in error please delete it and notify us. If this message was misdirected, CSFB does not waive any confidentiality or privilege. CSFB retains and monitors electronic communications sent through its network. Instructions transmitted over this system are not binding on CSFB until they are confirmed by us. Message transmission is not guaranteed to be secure.
==============================================================================

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Nunan, Mike"
<mike.nunan@c...> wrote:

> That's interesting, I found the 5400 to be unrelentingly hard
(contrast and grain to the max) when scanning retained-silver B&W
film, and the grain dissolver only seemed to make a slight
improvement. I can't fault the sharpness and for colour film, notably 

The Minolta 5400 scanning software is contrasty by design. It is meant
to impress first time users. Vuescan might be a better solution.

André

David:
  I have a Nikon Super Coolscan 4000 ED. I've looked at Silverfast as
replacement software and it is high$$$ ... and it appears that you have to
order for a specific scanner. I also have a Microtek 6000. Is there, to your
knowledge, software that would work for both and avoid buying a separate
version for both? Or have I read the Silverfast website wrong?
  PS: I am one of your subscribers

  TIA.
  Joe


  Hi David,

  That's interesting, I found the 5400 to be unrelentingly hard (contrast
and grain to the max) when scanning retained-silver B&W film, and the grain
dissolver only seemed to make a slight improvement. I can't fault the
sharpness and for colour film, notably Kodachrome, it's a fantastic unit,
but I've found that with certain hard negs it's very difficult to get a good
tonal range without some fairly murderous moves with curves. That then
brings out any incipient noise and grain aliasing problems, so it's a catch
22. I have several negs that look considerably better scanned on an Epson
3200 flatbed than they do on the Minolta, in terms of tonality but of course
not sharpness. I've often wondered if the less directional lightsource of
the Nikons would be a bit better in this respect, but I've never had the
opportunity to perform a back-to-back comparison. I guess a lot of it comes
down to the kind of look you're after -- for someone seeking the grainy,
contrasty reportage look,
  then the Minolta might be just the ticket.

  Best regards,

  -= mike =-

  -----Original Message-----
  From: David B. Brooks [mailto:fotografx@...]
  Sent: 16 October 2004 05:32
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  Cc: la_native@...
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Film Scanners


  Robert,

  Shortly after its announcement I had the opportunity to test and report on
the Minolta Dimage Scan Elite 5400, which appeared in Shutterbug magazine
some issues back. I also tested and reported on the Canon 4000FS some months
before. I have not reviewed a Nikon scanner for some time, not because I
have any issue with the scanner itself as it is very fine hardware, but
because the software is the worst in its class and the scanner is on that
basis grossly over-priced.

  The one outstanding feature, especially applied to scanning B&W
silver-based film is the 5400dpi optical resolution. That is a distinct
advantage not just because it will natively support making 16x24 inch by
300dpi scans, but the high resolution avoids a pattern interference problem
with film grain, particularly with grainier film processed with acutance
developers (low sodium sulfite formula¹s) like Acufine and particularly
Rodinal. In addition, the Minolta has a Grain Dissolver feature which is
actually a very fine diffusion filter, which combined with the scanners tube
light source that also reduces apparent graininess and avoids highlight
blocking, which can occur with some 35mm dedicated scanners with a more
collimated light source (like the difference printing with a diffusion
versus and condenser enlarger).

  If it makes any difference, being an old f... With 3/4 of my film library
in B&W, my reaction after testing the Minolta was to ask for invoice sending
Minolta a check instead of returning the scanner.

  Regards, David B. Brooks
  Shutterbug Magazine
  E-mail: fotografx@...






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

-----Original Message-----

  From: Nunan, Mike [mailto:mike.nunan@csfb.com]
  Sent: Monday, October 18, 2004 11:43 AM
  To: 'DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com'
  Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Film Scanners


  Hi David,

  That's interesting, I found the 5400 to be unrelentingly hard (contrast
and grain to the max) when scanning retained-silver B&W film, and the grain
dissolver only seemed to make a slight improvement. I can't fault the
sharpness and for colour film, notably Kodachrome, it's a fantastic unit,
but I've found that with certain hard negs it's very difficult to get a good
tonal range without some fairly murderous moves with curves. That then
brings out any incipient noise and grain aliasing problems, so it's a catch
22. I have several negs that look considerably better scanned on an Epson
3200 flatbed than they do on the Minolta, in terms of tonality but of course
not sharpness. I've often wondered if the less directional lightsource of
the Nikons would be a bit better in this respect, but I've never had the
opportunity to perform a back-to-back comparison. I guess a lot of it comes
down to the kind of look you're after -- for someone seeking the grainy,
contrasty reportage look,
  then the Minolta might be just the ticket.

  Best regards,

  -= mike =-

  -----Original Message-----
  From: David B. Brooks [mailto:fotografx@...]
  Sent: 16 October 2004 05:32
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  Cc: la_native@...
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Film Scanners


  Robert,

  Shortly after its announcement I had the opportunity to test and report on
the Minolta Dimage Scan Elite 5400, which appeared in Shutterbug magazine
some issues back. I also tested and reported on the Canon 4000FS some months
before. I have not reviewed a Nikon scanner for some time, not because I
have any issue with the scanner itself as it is very fine hardware, but
because the software is the worst in its class and the scanner is on that
basis grossly over-priced.

  The one outstanding feature, especially applied to scanning B&W
silver-based film is the 5400dpi optical resolution. That is a distinct
advantage not just because it will natively support making 16x24 inch by
300dpi scans, but the high resolution avoids a pattern interference problem
with film grain, particularly with grainier film processed with acutance
developers (low sodium sulfite formula¹s) like Acufine and particularly
Rodinal. In addition, the Minolta has a Grain Dissolver feature which is
actually a very fine diffusion filter, which combined with the scanners tube
light source that also reduces apparent graininess and avoids highlight
blocking, which can occur with some 35mm dedicated scanners with a more
collimated light source (like the difference printing with a diffusion
versus and condenser enlarger).

  If it makes any difference, being an old f... With 3/4 of my film library
in B&W, my reaction after testing the Minolta was to ask for invoice sending
Minolta a check instead of returning the scanner.

  Regards, David B. Brooks
  Shutterbug Magazine
  E-mail: fotografx@...




  On 10/15/04 8:07 PM, "Robert" <la_native@...> wrote:

  >
  > I'm having the darnest time getting a comprehensive comparison of the
  > Nikon LS5000 and the Minolta 5400 compared to my Canon FS4000.  I know
  > the newer scanners have lots of new features, faster scanning, better
  > bit depth, ICE x 4, etc.
  >
  > What I want to know is, do either of these scanners work better with
  > B&W negatives, OR pull better shadow detail with slides, than the Canon.
  >
  > I already have the Canon and can live with its limitations.  But I'd
  > consider upgrading if the image quality were noticeably better.
  >
  > All comments w/b appreciated!  Thanks!
  >
  > Robert Ades


============================================================================
==
  This message is for the sole use of the intended recipient. If you
received this message in error please delete it and notify us. If this
message was misdirected, CSFB does not waive any confidentiality or
privilege. CSFB retains and monitors electronic communications sent through
its network. Instructions transmitted over this system are not binding on
CSFB until they are confirmed by us. Message transmission is not guaranteed
to be secure.

============================================================================
==



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

At 5:35 PM +0000 10/18/04, Andre wrote:
>[snip] The Minolta 5400 scanning software is contrasty by design ... 
>to impress first time users. [snip]

Why do you say so, Andre? Doesn't sound like a good marketing move to me.

Thanks.
--
Sam