Digital BW, The Print

I'm in the market for a new display monitor. I know there has been a 
lot of debate in recent years about LCD vs. CRT, with high end CRTs, 
such as the Sony Artisan, considered by many professional 
photographers to be necessary for critical work. Are the newer LCDs, 
such as the Eizo ColorEdge and Apple Cinema HD, "good enough" now 
for either color or B&W work?

There is a lot of debate about this now. As far as the most critical color work is concerned, 
the best CRT's such as Lacie, Sony, and Mitsubishi Pro monitors still have a color gamut 
and contrast edge on LCD's. These are what I use. However, in my opinion, the Apple HD 
flat screens are certainly "good enough" for serious Photoshop color correction and high-
end retouching. In fact, a lot of very serious retouchers use them now and the Apple 22" 
or 32" screen will be my next monitor because of its great proportion and light weight . 
They take the place of two monitors for utilizing tools, etc. Size is very important in the 
long run.

If you are on a budget check into www.lacie.com and take advantage of one of the 19" or 
22" "refurbished"  crt monitors that are a real steal because not only do they have a 
warranty but also, the last I checked, included a $5.00 total shipping charge. Can't beat 
that. The Lacie monitors use Sony tubes and have very good software for color calibration 
and mine have lasted for years without loosing contrast.

John

> 
> I'm in the market for a new display monitor. I know there has been a 
> lot of debate in recent years about LCD vs. CRT, with high end CRTs, 
> such as the Sony Artisan, considered by many professional 
> photographers to be necessary for critical work. Are the newer LCDs, 
> such as the Eizo ColorEdge and Apple Cinema HD, "good enough" now 
> for either color or B&W work?

> From: craig_hanson_98110 [mailto:chanson@...]
>
> I'm in the market for a new display monitor. I know there has been a
> lot of debate in recent years about LCD vs. CRT, with high end CRTs,
> such as the Sony Artisan, considered by many professional
> photographers to be necessary for critical work. Are the newer LCDs,
> such as the Eizo ColorEdge and Apple Cinema HD, "good enough" now
> for either color or B&W work?

Those certainly are. The only disadvantage of them is limited resolution.
Unless your prepared to spend thousands, you won't find anything beyond UXGA
(1600x1200) or WUXGA (1920x1200).

--

Ciao,               Paul D. DeRocco
Paul                mailto:pderocco@...

>If you are on a budget check into www.lacie.com and take advantage of one of the 19" or 
>22" "refurbished"  crt monitors that are a real steal because not only do they have a 
>warranty but also, the last I checked, included a $5.00 total shipping charge. Can't beat 
>that. The Lacie monitors use Sony tubes and have very good software for color calibration 
>and mine have lasted for years without loosing contrast.
>
>John
>
>  
>
Don't!

Although I am a happy LaCie user (now) I have had 3 so called 
"refurbished" units to replace a broken LaCie. I ultimately demanded a 
brand new LaCie and got one. The rand new was perfect, the 3 
"refurbished" units all had serious flaws.

Oh yes, LaCie does not use Sony tubes but Diamondtron (Mitsubitshi) tubes.

This might be interesting though : 
http://www.lacie.com/be/products/product.htm?id=10137
http://www.photographyblog.com/comments.php?id=4022_0_1_0_C
-- 

Hans Van Rafelghem
http://www.vanrafelghem.com

IMHO no.
Mark

On Oct 31, 2004, at 10:36 PM, craig_hanson_98110 wrote:

>
>  I'm in the market for a new display monitor. I know there has been a
>  lot of debate in recent years about LCD vs. CRT, with high end CRTs,
>  such as the Sony Artisan, considered by many professional
>  photographers to be necessary for critical work. Are the newer LCDs,
>  such as the Eizo ColorEdge and Apple Cinema HD, "good enough" now
>  for either color or B&W work?
>
>
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
> resources as they are often being updated.
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I am pretty sure they are Mitsubishi tubes.
Mark

On Oct 31, 2004, at 11:46 PM, john dean wrote:

> The Lacie monitors use Sony tubes

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I don't think Sony make tubes any more - I seem to remember reading that 
they have gone over entirely to lcd's.

Bob Frost.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mark Savoia" <mark@...>



I am pretty sure they are Mitsubishi tubes.
Mark

On Oct 31, 2004, at 11:46 PM, john dean wrote:

> The Lacie monitors use Sony tubes

Bob Frost writes:

> I don't think Sony make tubes any more - I seem to remember reading that
> they have gone over entirely to lcd's.

Sure they do.  They make tubes for high-end CRTs and for professional
monitors, including the Sony Artisan.

Which has been discontinued.
Mark

On Nov 1, 2004, at 8:37 AM, Anthony G. Atkielski wrote:

> including the Sony Artisan

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sony has stopped production of their Artisan monitor <sigh>. A sign 
of the times? It may be we won't have much of a choice soon.

I have heard good things about Eizo's top of the line ColorEdge 
LCD's though. Better than Apple's from what I understand. Their 
ability to be precisely color profiled/managed and good shadow 
detail are strong points. Shadow detail has always been the LCD's 
weak point, but Eizo claims their ColorEdge LCD's have shadow detail 
equal to a CRT. Not cheap though -- about three grand for the 
ColorEdge CG21 21" monitor, almost twice the street price of the 
Artisan.

I have also heard the color gamut of LCD monitors is not as wide as 
a CRT (not a big issue for BW work) and this would need to be looked 
into, this may have changed by now. Finally, I've been noticing HUGE 
contrast ranges on LCD's spec'd out recently -- to the order of 
800:1. Contrast ranges like that make soft proofing very difficult 
because there's no way paper can ever approach that.

sanfo2003 writes:

> Sony has stopped production of their Artisan monitor <sigh>. A sign
> of the times? It may be we won't have much of a choice soon.

Since CRTs are still superior to flat panels, why did they stop?

Is it like digital in place of film?

Not sure, could be either they are hard to make or they were not 
selling enough of them. Too bad, I was waiting for the price to drop on 
them.
Mark

On Nov 1, 2004, at 9:56 AM, Anthony G. Atkielski wrote:

> sanfo2003 writes:
>
>  > Sony has stopped production of their Artisan monitor <sigh>. A sign
>  > of the times? It may be we won't have much of a choice soon.
>
>  Since CRTs are still superior to flat panels, why did they stop?
>
>  Is it like digital in place of film?
>
>
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
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> MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Anthony G. Atkielski wrote:

>sanfo2003 writes:
>
>  
>
>>Sony has stopped production of their Artisan monitor <sigh>. A sign
>>of the times? It may be we won't have much of a choice soon.
>>    
>>
>
>Since CRTs are still superior to flat panels, why did they stop?
>
>Is it like digital in place of film?
>
>
>
>  
>
IMHO, it's not about superior tech. It's about how to meet consumer 
demand while making the most profit. So yes, it's like digital in place 
of film. Consumers want it, and it's more profitable.

--
Hogarth Hughes

Craig

I got myself a Samsung SyncMaster 193P after reading very positive reviews
about it. This LCD is very good for the price and calibrates very well. I
also have a CRT but use the LCD for medical reasons (less strain on the
eyes).

Wish you luck

Nelson

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Paul D. DeRocco [mailto:pderocco@...] 
> Sent: segunda-feira, 1 de novembro de 2004 04:56
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [Digital BW] LCD vs. CRT
> 
> 
> 
> > From: craig_hanson_98110 [mailto:chanson@...]
> >
> > I'm in the market for a new display monitor. I know there 
> has been a 
> > lot of debate in recent years about LCD vs. CRT, with high 
> end CRTs, 
> > such as the Sony Artisan, considered by many professional 
> > photographers to be necessary for critical work. Are the 
> newer LCDs, 
> > such as the Eizo ColorEdge and Apple Cinema HD, "good 
> enough" now for 
> > either color or B&W work?
> 
> Those certainly are. The only disadvantage of them is limited 
> resolution. Unless your prepared to spend thousands, you 
> won't find anything beyond UXGA
> (1600x1200) or WUXGA (1920x1200).
> 
> --
> 
> Ciao,               Paul D. DeRocco
> Paul                mailto:pderocco@...
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor 
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> 
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> 
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> 
>

About a year ago I switched from using a Lacie 19" Blue III to a Apple 
studio display LCD and I would never go back!

I run a photo studio in Boston, MA. I specialize in reproducing artwork 
so all of my work is "color critical". I moved to the Apple display 
with all the reservation mentioned on the list but in reality have 
found the Apple display to outperform the Lacie in every way that is 
important to me. For color work I make Lightjet prints and have been 
able to achieve perfect soft proofing and WYSIWIG printing. For B&W 
work I print with and Epson 1280 and UT2 Inks. Again.. perfect soft 
proofing and WYSIWIG with the Apple display. Using the GretagMacbeth 
Eye-One I was able to get a better profile on the Apple display than on 
the Lacie. Perhaps because when profiling a LCD there are a lot less 
variables and they are much more neutral right out of the box.. at 
least my Apple studio display was.

Here are some other advantages I have found with the Apple LCD:

No warm up time - CRTs will take at least 15 min to warm up and display 
proper color.
Sharper - the LCD is so much sharper than the CRT and looks MUCH closer 
to the sharpness of the printed image.
Less eye strain after hours of use than the CRT. No CRT radiation.
The LCD is lightweight and easy to move around if necessary.

-Jeff

On Oct 31, 2004, at 10:36 PM, craig_hanson_98110 wrote:

>
>
> I'm in the market for a new display monitor. I know there has been a
> lot of debate in recent years about LCD vs. CRT, with high end CRTs,
> such as the Sony Artisan, considered by many professional
> photographers to be necessary for critical work. Are the newer LCDs,
> such as the Eizo ColorEdge and Apple Cinema HD, "good enough" now
> for either color or B&W work?
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
> resources as they are often being updated.
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish 
> to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting 
> this same page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to 
> keep them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or 
> flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from 
> the membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital 
> B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be 
> removed from the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and 
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group 
> Owner and Moderators. See “Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines” in the 
> Files section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
>
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE 
> PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE “OWNER” 
> AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE 
> LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, 
> CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, 
> DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE 
> LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  “OWNER” AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT 
> YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), 
> RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, 
> THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF 
> YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD 
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> MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

And your backlight bulb has not faded at all?
Mark

On Nov 1, 2004, at 11:20 AM, Jeff Magidson wrote:

>
> About a year ago I switched from using a Lacie 19" Blue III to a Apple
> studio display LCD and I would never go back!
>
> I run a photo studio in Boston, MA. I specialize in reproducing artwork
> so all of my work is "color critical". I moved to the Apple display
> with all the reservation mentioned on the list but in reality have
> found the Apple display to outperform the Lacie in every way that is
> important to me. For color work I make Lightjet prints and have been
> able to achieve perfect soft proofing and WYSIWIG printing. For B&W
> work I print with and Epson 1280 and UT2 Inks. Again.. perfect soft
> proofing and WYSIWIG with the Apple display. Using the GretagMacbeth
> Eye-One I was able to get a better profile on the Apple display than on
> the Lacie. Perhaps because when profiling a LCD there are a lot less
> variables and they are much more neutral right out of the box.. at
> least my Apple studio display was.
>
> Here are some other advantages I have found with the Apple LCD:
>
> No warm up time - CRTs will take at least 15 min to warm up and display
> proper color.
> Sharper - the LCD is so much sharper than the CRT and looks MUCH closer
> to the sharpness of the printed image.
> Less eye strain after hours of use than the CRT. No CRT radiation.
> The LCD is lightweight and easy to move around if necessary.
>
> -Jeff
>
>
>
> On Oct 31, 2004, at 10:36 PM, craig_hanson_98110 wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> I'm in the market for a new display monitor. I know there has been a
>> lot of debate in recent years about LCD vs. CRT, with high end CRTs,
>> such as the Sony Artisan, considered by many professional
>> photographers to be necessary for critical work. Are the newer LCDs,
>> such as the Eizo ColorEdge and Apple Cinema HD, "good enough" now
>> for either color or B&W work?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other
>> resources as they are often being updated.
>>
>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>>
>> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish
>> to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting
>> this same page.
>>
>> Please follow these basic guidelines:
>> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to
>> keep them short.
>> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
>> flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from
>> the membership without notice.
>> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital
>> B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be
>> removed from the membership.
>> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
>> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group
>> Owner and Moderators. See “Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines” in the
>> Files section:
>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
>>
>> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE
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>> AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE
>> LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL,
>> CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO,
>> DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE
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>> YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES),
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>> THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF
>> YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD
>> PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER
>> MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
>>
>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
> resources as they are often being updated.
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
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>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
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> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or 
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> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital 
> B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be 
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> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and 
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> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE 
> PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE “OWNER” 
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> LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, 
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> YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), 
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> THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF 
> YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD 
> PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER 
> MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Jeff Magidson writes:

> Here are some other advantages I have found with the Apple LCD:
>
> No warm up time - CRTs will take at least 15 min to warm up and display
> proper color.
> Sharper - the LCD is so much sharper than the CRT and looks MUCH closer
> to the sharpness of the printed image.
> Less eye strain after hours of use than the CRT. No CRT radiation.
> The LCD is lightweight and easy to move around if necessary.

And the price?

Were there any defective pixels?

Mark;

No. Over the one year that I have been using the display the output has 
change very little. Every 2 months I use the Eye-One to make a new 
profile and the changes have been minute. The only thing I have noticed 
on the negative side is the far corners don't look as good as the 
center anymore. But it is minor and easy to work around.

Also I forgot to mention on my first post. If Anyone in the Boston area 
wants to buy my Lacie at a good price, Email me off list!

-Jeff

On Nov 1, 2004, at 11:24 AM, Mark Savoia wrote:

>
> And your backlight bulb has not faded at all?
> Mark

At 05:20 AM Tuesday 11/2/04, you wrote:

>About a year ago I switched from using a Lacie 19" Blue III to a Apple 
>studio display LCD and I would never go back!

Sorry to display my ignorance, but must you be using a Mac to be able to plug an Apple LCD display into your box?

thanks,
Richard 
--
http://smallfield.vze.com
http://photos.smallfield.vze.com

   "A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth 
   has a chance to get its pants on." 
   --Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

Does anyone know about the 'new' Gallery Extreme Monitors from Fonmac?  Specs look good.  19 and 20 inch models, under $900us.
 
Tom Baker


 

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

At 04:57 AM Tuesday 11/2/04, you wrote:
>I got myself a Samsung SyncMaster 193P after reading very positive reviews
>about it. This LCD is very good for the price and calibrates very well. I
>also have a CRT but use the LCD for medical reasons (less strain on the
>eyes).

Hi Craig, you have me interested now in this Samsung. I'd been considering a Viewsonic G90f+ (I think) CRT monitor, but this unit of yours sounds very good. I'm just curious about where I can go to read the reviews.

thanks,
Richard

--
http://smallfield.vze.com
http://photos.smallfield.vze.com

   "I've had a wonderful time, but this wasn't it." 
   --Groucho Marx (1895-1977)

Richard

The post below is mine. I have the 193P. 

Do a gogle search with Samsung 193P review. You will find plenty of
material.

Good luck

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Richard Smallfield [mailto:r.smallfield@...] 
> Sent: segunda-feira, 1 de novembro de 2004 14:22
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [Digital BW] LCD vs. CRT
> 
> 
> 
> At 04:57 AM Tuesday 11/2/04, you wrote:
> >I got myself a Samsung SyncMaster 193P after reading very positive 
> >reviews about it. This LCD is very good for the price and calibrates 
> >very well. I also have a CRT but use the LCD for medical 
> reasons (less 
> >strain on the eyes).
> 
> Hi Craig, you have me interested now in this Samsung. I'd 
> been considering a Viewsonic G90f+ (I think) CRT monitor, but 
> this unit of yours sounds very good. I'm just curious about 
> where I can go to read the reviews.
> 
> thanks,
> Richard
> 
> --
> http://smallfield.vze.com
> http://photos.smallfield.vze.com
> 
>    "I've had a wonderful time, but this wasn't it." 
>    --Groucho Marx (1895-1977) 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
> resources as they are often being updated.
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or 
> you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership 
> preferences by visiting this same page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier 
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> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks 
> or flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be 
> removed from the membership without notice.
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> digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic 
> posts may be removed from the membership.
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> rules and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and 
> decisions of the group Owner and Moderators. See "Group 
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> THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO 
> THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
>  
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> 
>

Anthony G. Atkielski wrote:

>Bob Frost writes:
>
>  
>
>>I don't think Sony make tubes any more - I seem to remember reading that
>>they have gone over entirely to lcd's.
>>    
>>
>
>Sure they do.  They make tubes for high-end CRTs and for professional
>monitors, including the Sony Artisan.
>
>  
>
Production of Artisan has stopped.
-- 

Hans Van Rafelghem
http://www.vanrafelghem.com

OK, you were first :)

-- 

Hans Van Rafelghem
http://www.vanrafelghem.com

>Which has been discontinued.
>Mark
>
>On Nov 1, 2004, at 8:37 AM, Anthony G. Atkielski wrote:
>
>  
>
>>including the Sony Artisan
>>    
>>

No not with the new display range from Apple.

> From: Richard Smallfield <r.smallfield@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2004 06:10:16 +1300
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] LCD vs. CRT
> 
> 
> At 05:20 AM Tuesday 11/2/04, you wrote:
> 
>> About a year ago I switched from using a Lacie 19" Blue III to a Apple
>> studio display LCD and I would never go back!
> 
> Sorry to display my ignorance, but must you be using a Mac to be able to plug
> an Apple LCD display into your box?
> 
> thanks,
> Richard 
> --
> http://smallfield.vze.com
> http://photos.smallfield.vze.com
> 
>    "A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth
>    has a chance to get its pants on."
>    --Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

Richard;

The current crop of Apple displays have a DVI connector on them. So if 
your PC has a video card with a DVI interface you are good to go.

-Jeff

On Nov 1, 2004, at 12:10 PM, Richard Smallfield wrote:
>>
>
> Sorry to display my ignorance, but must you be using a Mac to be able 
> to plug an Apple LCD display into your box?
>
> thanks,
> Richard

Companies will make what sells.
Bob

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Anthony G. Atkielski" <anthony@...>
To: "sanfo2003" <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, November 01, 2004 9:56 AM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: LCD vs. CRT



sanfo2003 writes:

> Sony has stopped production of their Artisan monitor <sigh>. A sign
> of the times? It may be we won't have much of a choice soon.

Since CRTs are still superior to flat panels, why did they stop?

Is it like digital in place of film?






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Amen

> From: "Robert W. Shearer" <rwshearer@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 13:40:46 -0500
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: LCD vs. CRT
> 
> 
> Companies will make what sells.
> Bob

The main criticism of LCD screens has been their low contrast ratios versus CRTs. I can certainly see a huge difference between my wife's laptop screen and my Sony Trinitron monitor. When I last looked a few months ago, they were getting better. Do any LCD monitors match CRTs for image editing?
 
Don

"Anthony G. Atkielski" <anthony@...> wrote:
Jeff Magidson writes:

> Here are some other advantages I have found with the Apple LCD:
>
> No warm up time - CRTs will take at least 15 min to warm up and display
> proper color.
> Sharper - the LCD is so much sharper than the CRT and looks MUCH closer
> to the sharpness of the printed image.
> Less eye strain after hours of use than the CRT. No CRT radiation.
> The LCD is lightweight and easy to move around if necessary.

And the price?

Were there any defective pixels?




---------------------------------
Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Robert W. Shearer writes:

> Companies will make what sells.

Aren't people buying CRTs?  What about pros?

Contrast ratios are up to 400:1 but are still well behind plasma or CRT.
The big downfall of LCD is its poor black generation.  This is why it will
be a long time before plasma is pushed out of the living room/home theatre
environment. (Note even Apple's 16.7m colours is way off plasma's current
1070m and brightness also lags way behind plasma.  They do outperform in the
resolution stakes which is important for close-up, ie computer monitor,
viewing)  I think the over-riding sales advantage to LCD vs CRT is a better
form factor (space, style etc) and probably lower cost of
production/transportation/storage and higher retail margin.  The bottom line
is they look cool and are good enough to get the job done for most people so
they sell.  I would not want to rely on one to watch my DVD collection
though, let alone HDTV....But I can tell you there is a massive increase in
quality from an Apple laptop screen to one of their Cinema (now there's a
misnomer!) displays.

> From: Don Marcotte <dmarcot@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 14:41:04 -0500 (EST)
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] LCD vs. CRT
> 
> 
> The main criticism of LCD screens has been their low contrast ratios versus
> CRTs. I can certainly see a huge difference between my wife's laptop screen
> and my Sony Trinitron monitor. When I last looked a few months ago, they were
> getting better. Do any LCD monitors match CRTs for image editing?
>  
> Don
> 
> "Anthony G. Atkielski" <anthony@...> wrote:
> Jeff Magidson writes:
> 
>> Here are some other advantages I have found with the Apple LCD:
>> 
>> No warm up time - CRTs will take at least 15 min to warm up and display
>> proper color.
>> Sharper - the LCD is so much sharper than the CRT and looks MUCH closer
>> to the sharpness of the printed image.
>> Less eye strain after hours of use than the CRT. No CRT radiation.
>> The LCD is lightweight and easy to move around if necessary.
>

Antony,

 I use my Artisan for critical color work, but I use my Formac Gallery 21" 
lcd for everything else, including much of my printing which isn't 
absolutely critical in color terms. The LCD is far superior in everything, 
except it can't display an absolutely neutral grayscale. It's sharper, 
brighter, bigger, and just far more user-friendly than the Artisan. The new 
Eizo is even better I understand.

Bob Frost.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Anthony G. Atkielski" <anthony@...>


Since CRTs are still superior to flat panels, why did they stop?

Anthony,

For some things digital is better, and for some things film. Same for CRTs 
and LCDs.

Digital and LCDs advance every month or two. Films, scanners, and CRTs are 
rapidly becoming OT - old technology! They still have their uses, but the 
world moves on.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Anthony G. Atkielski" <anthony@...>

Is it like digital in place of film?

Hello jeff,

>LCD
>No warm up time -
>Sharper - 
>Less eye strain after hours of use -  
>No CRT radiation -
>The LCD is lightweight -

Amen on all!  Huge difference in eyestrain.  Add these to the list:

- Recover several square feet of work space (a major feature!)
- Less heat generated
- I think they also use less current (anyone know for sure?)

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

I switched this year from a Mitsubishi Diamond Pro to  A  Samsung 213t. LCD 
Its a beautiful display 21inches and calibrates very well 1200.00
Sharpness and everything is an upgrade from my prior CRT.
IMHO its would be a little nuts to by A CRT at this stage of the game unless 
its an absolute bargain and a temporary solution. 
I will never go back to a CRT, but people tend to love what they are using.
Steve M.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Yea, my girlfreind is a web designer and has one of those Samsung rotating LCDs, and I 
have to admit it looks pretty damn saturated and sharp, and takes up so little space. 
Tubes are so heay and fat, but this 22" Mistsubishi that I am using right now is 4.5 years 
old and still looks great. That surprised me. How long are the LCDs expected to last, 
realisticly?

john




--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, sdmey4@a... wrote:

> I switched this year from a Mitsubishi Diamond Pro to  A  Samsung 213t. LCD 
> Its a beautiful display 21inches and calibrates very well 1200.00
> Sharpness and everything is an upgrade from my prior CRT.
> IMHO its would be a little nuts to by A CRT at this stage of the game unless 
> its an absolute bargain and a temporary solution. 
> I will never go back to a CRT, but people tend to love what they are using.
> Steve M.
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In a message dated 11/1/2004 4:44:11 PM Pacific Standard Time, 
deanwork2003@... writes:

> How long are the LCDs expected to last, 
> realisticly?
> 
> john
> 
Good Question! I dunno? I think there worth it if they only last 3 years, 
they are only getting better and more affordable. In a couple years we can 
probably get nice 21's for 600.00
Steve M.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Clayton you have helped me with all your work on BO printing, paper 
information, profiles etc etc.  Consequently I have come to respect 
your opinion.  Therefore can you tell us what LCD display you are 
using and if you had to purchase a new one now what would you get?

Joe


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clayton Jones" 
<cj@c...> wrote:

> 
> Hello jeff,
> 
> >LCD
> >No warm up time -
> >Sharper - 
> >Less eye strain after hours of use -  
> >No CRT radiation -
> >The LCD is lightweight -
> 
> Amen on all!  Huge difference in eyestrain.  Add these to the list:
> 
> - Recover several square feet of work space (a major feature!)
> - Less heat generated
> - I think they also use less current (anyone know for sure?)
> 
> Regards,
> Clayton
> 
> 
> Info on black and white digital printing at    
> http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

It would seem not; image quality seems to be improving, the obvious 
advantage of space gained on the desk, steady down curve in pricing, weight. 
Just a few of the apparent reasons. Plus marketing!
Bob

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Anthony G. Atkielski" <anthony@...>
To: "Robert W. Shearer" <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, November 01, 2004 2:57 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: LCD vs. CRT



Robert W. Shearer writes:

> Companies will make what sells.

Aren't people buying CRTs?  What about pros?




Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as 
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GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  "OWNER" AND 
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Yahoo! Groups Links

IMNSHO, yes. ;-)

I work for a major national ad agency, and all of our 75+ art 
directors, designers and studio/production artists are on Apple Cinema 
Displays--and have been for 2 generations now.

Yes, we lease the monitors, so we don't have to deal with any pixel 
failure or other potential long-term issues. And yes, we pull high-end 
proofs from outside vendors to make sure color is dead-on for final 
reproduction. But before it gets to that point, we have to pull plenty 
of in-house prints for client approval. They (and our Creative 
Directors) expect those to look great now--and for the proof to confirm 
what they saw, not reinvent it.

I too err on the side of caution when it's my own money at risk. But 
from first-hand observation, the Apple LCD's are definitely "good 
enough" for companies with a lot more at stake financially and 
reputation-wise than my little ol' photography business.

Doug

>  Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 07:04:48 -0500
>    From: Mark Savoia <mark@...>
> Subject: Re: LCD vs. CRT
>
> IMHO no.
> Mark
>
> On Oct 31, 2004, at 10:36 PM, craig_hanson_98110 wrote:
>
>>
>>  I'm in the market for a new display monitor. I know there has been a
>>  lot of debate in recent years about LCD vs. CRT, with high end CRTs,
>>  such as the Sony Artisan, considered by many professional
>>  photographers to be necessary for critical work. Are the newer LCDs,
>>  such as the Eizo ColorEdge and Apple Cinema HD, "good enough" now
>>  for either color or B&W work?

Not to mention that some of the LCD's just plaing look cool sitting on the desk, even when they're not on.
 
Tom Baker






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Clayton Jones writes:

> - I think they also use less current (anyone know for sure?)

Yes, about 1/3 to 1/3 the current.

sdmey4@... writes:

> I switched this year from a Mitsubishi Diamond Pro to  A  Samsung 213t. LCD
> Its a beautiful display 21inches and calibrates very well 1200.00
> Sharpness and everything is an upgrade from my prior CRT.

Were there any defective pixels?

sdmey4@... writes:

> Good Question! I dunno? I think there worth it if they only last 3 years,
> they are only getting better and more affordable. In a couple years we can
> probably get nice 21's for 600.00

I've had two inexpensive (relatively) LCDs on my desk, on continuously,
for several years now, and they show no change that I can see.

Tom Baker writes:

> Not to mention that some of the LCD's just plaing look cool sitting
> on the desk, even when they're not on.

Now I understand why Hasselblad makes models with chrome trim.

http://www.apple.com/displays/environment.html

> From: Clayton Jones <cj@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2004 00:25:29 -0000
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] LCD vs. CRT
> 
> 
> 
> Hello jeff,
> 
>> LCD
>> No warm up time -
>> Sharper - 
>> Less eye strain after hours of use -
>> No CRT radiation -
>> The LCD is lightweight -
> 
> Amen on all!  Huge difference in eyestrain.  Add these to the list:
> 
> - Recover several square feet of work space (a major feature!)
> - Less heat generated
> - I think they also use less current (anyone know for sure?)
> 
> Regards,
> Clayton
> 
> 
> Info on black and white digital printing at
> http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

You guys might find this interesting....


http://www.ecinemasys.com/products/edp100/edp100_lcd_vs_crt.htm

At 3:56 pm +0100 11/1/04, Anthony G. Atkielski wrote:

>  > Sony has stopped production of their Artisan monitor <sigh>. A sign
>>  of the times? It may be we won't have much of a choice soon.
>
>Since CRTs are still superior to flat panels, why did they stop?
>
>Is it like digital in place of film?


Anthony --

The consumer preference for LCDs goes a lot deeper than the 
digital/film question: Anyone who has ever humped a 25" television up 
two flights of stairs is going to be a very hard sell for a 21" CRT 
monitor over a 23" LCD.

The relative mobility of LCDs (and their reduced desktop footprint, 
and the elimination of the narrow-desk-at-a-wall problem) far 
outweighs dMax considerations for most customers. And LCDs are 
getting better every day.

I've loved working with most of the quality CRTs we've had, but their 
color and maximum brightness changed a lot over the first few years; 
three or four years was about the limit of their color-critical 
usability for our purposes. I have yet to have those problems with 
our LCDs (though none of them are three years old yet...).

YMMV, but I can shift an ACD 30" by myself; moving around 21" CRTs 
was always an...adventure.... I would never be able to move a 30" CRT 
alone.


Best wishes,

-=-Dennis


p.s.: We've gone to LCD monitors, but I still believe that digital 
has a long way to go before it eclipses film FWIW.

At 1:14 pm -0500 11/1/04, Jeff Magidson wrote:

>The current crop of Apple displays have a DVI connector on them. So if
>your PC has a video card with a DVI interface you are good to go.

Note that the 30" ACHD requires a video card with a lot of horsepower 
to drive it. I don't think the 23" needs as much torque, but it might 
be best to see if your card can drive it before you order one.

Best wishes,

-=-Dennis

Call me crazy.
Mark

On Nov 1, 2004, at 7:34 PM, sdmey4@... wrote:

> its would be a little nuts to by A CRT

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

At 10:28 PM Tuesday 11/2/04, you wrote:
>> Amen on all!  Huge difference in eyestrain.  Add these to the list:
>> 
>> - Recover several square feet of work space (a major feature!)
>> - Less heat generated
>> - I think they also use less current (anyone know for sure?)

And the cat can't sit on them!

Richard

--
http://smallfield.vze.com
http://photos.smallfield.vze.com

   "When will I learn? The answers to life's problems aren't at the bottom of a
   bottle. They're on TV."
   --Homer Simpson

On 2 Nov 2004 at 4:13, Dennis W. Manasco wrote:

> 
> At 3:56 pm +0100 11/1/04, Anthony G. Atkielski wrote:
> 
> >  > Sony has stopped production of their Artisan monitor <sigh>. A sign
> >>  of the times? It may be we won't have much of a choice soon.
> >
> >Since CRTs are still superior to flat panels, why did they stop?
> >
> >Is it like digital in place of film?
> 
> 
> Anthony --
> 
> The consumer preference for LCDs goes a lot deeper than the 
> digital/film question: Anyone who has ever humped a 25" television up 
> two flights of stairs is going to be a very hard sell for a 21" CRT 
> monitor over a 23" LCD.
> 
> The relative mobility of LCDs (and their reduced desktop footprint, 
> and the elimination of the narrow-desk-at-a-wall problem) far 
> outweighs dMax considerations for most customers. And LCDs are 
> getting better every day.
> 
> I've loved working with most of the quality CRTs we've had, but their 
> color and maximum brightness changed a lot over the first few years; 
> three or four years was about the limit of their color-critical 
> usability for our purposes. I have yet to have those problems with 
> our LCDs (though none of them are three years old yet...).
> 
> YMMV, but I can shift an ACD 30" by myself; moving around 21" CRTs 
> was always an...adventure.... I would never be able to move a 30" CRT 
> alone.

I have always thought the biggest problem with CRTs is the fact that for every inch 
of diagonal measurement you get an inch of depth.  The 19" CRT I am viewing this 
on, is at least 19" from front to back.  It takes over the desk and part of the room as 
well......

Not to mention the weight, and the fact you need a lot of air space around one, for 
cooling. The reason the cat likes to sit on top of the TV or the monitor is the fact it's 
usually the warmest place in the room.  Funny thing is, I have 4 cats, and none of 
them has ever sat on either the monitor or the TV......

W

In a message dated 11/1/2004 11:05:37 PM Pacific Standard Time, 
anthony@... writes:

> >I switched this year from a Mitsubishi Diamond Pro to  A  Samsung 213t. 
> LCD
> >Its a beautiful display 21inches and calibrates very well 1200.00
> >Sharpness and everything is an upgrade from my prior CRT.
> 
> Were there any defective pixels?
> 
ZERO defective pixels, If I recall anything over 3 was a returnable display.
I ve seen alot of them(samsung 213t's) and I have not seen any dead pixels on 
any of them.
Steve M.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I'm with Steve M. and Anthony...the Samsung 213T is a wonderful screen. I installed one 
for a client a few months ago and he took one look at it and ordered another. Now he has 
dual LCDs.

Sharpness, color and quality is excellent. Profiles very well.

> anthony@a... writes: 
> > >I switched this year from a Mitsubishi Diamond Pro to  A  Samsung 213t. 
> I ve seen alot of them(samsung 213t's) and I have not seen any dead pixels on 
> any of them.
> Steve M.

sdmey4@... writes:

> ZERO defective pixels, If I recall anything over 3 was a returnable display.

I'm still waiting for manufacturers to commit to zero defective pixels.
Three defective pixels is not acceptable on a display, especially given
the price of most flat-panel displays.

One of the two $300 LCD displays I have has a dead pixel.  The other one
originally had a dead pixel, but it went away.  I don't use them for
critical work, but for an expensive, critical display, I want a
commitment to zero defective pixels.  I know it can be done, so no
excuse is acceptable.

John Vitollo writes:

> Sharpness, color and quality is excellent. Profiles very well.

How many defective pixels?

> > John Vitollo writes:
> > Sharpness, color and quality is excellent. Profiles very well.

<anthony@a...> wrote:
> How many defective pixels?

Zero...none...nada...zilith!

What do you expect for $300?  Buy quality.

> From: "Anthony G. Atkielski" <anthony@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 06:43:02 +0100
> To: "sdmey4@..." <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: LCD vs. CRT
> 
> 
> sdmey4@... writes:
> 
>> ZERO defective pixels, If I recall anything over 3 was a returnable display.
> 
> I'm still waiting for manufacturers to commit to zero defective pixels.
> Three defective pixels is not acceptable on a display, especially given
> the price of most flat-panel displays.
> 
> One of the two $300 LCD displays I have has a dead pixel.  The other one
> originally had a dead pixel, but it went away.  I don't use them for
> critical work, but for an expensive, critical display, I want a
> commitment to zero defective pixels.  I know it can be done, so no
> excuse is acceptable.
>

Steve Kale writes:

> What do you expect for $300?  Buy quality.

For $300 I can get a huge CRT monitor with no dead pixels.  So that's
not an excuse.

With its lower resolution, greater power consumption, radiation, size etc.
My point is there is a set of tradeoffs in considering this question but
comparing a good CRT with a cheap/poor LCD is inappropriate.  Yes a good LCD
costs more than a good CRT (with the price gap closing) but compare a
quality CRT with a quality LCD.  My 23in Apple CD display has had absolutely
no problems for the last year and half.  If it had one dead pixel I would
have sent it back to the supplier.  Oh and I can't describe how good it is
to have the large 16:9 space to work with.

> From: "Anthony G. Atkielski" <anthony@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 13:16:18 +0100
> To: Steve Kale <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: LCD vs. CRT
> 
> 
> Steve Kale writes:
> 
>> What do you expect for $300?  Buy quality.
> 
> For $300 I can get a huge CRT monitor with no dead pixels.  So that's
> not an excuse.

Steve Kale writes:

> With its lower resolution, greater power consumption, radiation, size etc.

CRTs are capable of higher resolutions than flat-panel displays; that's
one of the advantages of CRTs.

Power consumption is higher but neither CRTs nor flat panels are huge
consumers of electrical power.

There is no radiation problem.

Size is not too much of a problem, but weight is a serious issue with
CRTs, and that's one of the main reasons I'm considering flat panels.
But flat panels cost much more for much less, and they still don't match
CRTs for image quality (especially at prices that are only two or three
times those of CRTs).

> My point is there is a set of tradeoffs in considering this question but
> comparing a good CRT with a cheap/poor LCD is inappropriate.

Not if you're looking at price, which is a key factor in any buying
decision.

> Yes a good LCD costs more than a good CRT ...

Sometimes five times more, for equivalent image quality.

> ... but compare a quality CRT with a quality LCD.

Compare $1000 of CRT with $1000 of LCD.

Compare 20 kg of CRT with 20 kg of LCD.

Depending on which factor you compare, either technology might be
favored.

But you need to look at _all_ factors in order to decide which type to
buy.  LCDs have great advantages, but they have great disadvantages,
too.  That's why they still have not fully replaced CRTs.  And flat
panels have been around for forty years.

> My 23in Apple CD display has had absolutely
> no problems for the last year and half.

My CRT had no problem for the first 7-8 years or so.

> If it had one dead pixel I would have sent it back to the supplier.

And what would they have done?  Some suppliers refuse to take back a
flat panel that has less than a "minimum acceptable number" of dead
pixels (as if any number other than zero were acceptable).

> Oh and I can't describe how good it is to have the large 16:9
> space to work with.

The 16:9 ratio would a very awkward aspect ratio to work with, I should
think.  Hardly anything fits neatly within it.  I guess I could use the
sides for dialog boxes or something.  But I'd still need high resolution
and square pixels.

Well I am not about to reiterate the entire debate but I have posted links
to discussions about the resolving power of CRT vs LCD and CRT loses. It is
clear that in general LCDs are more expensive than their CRT forebears and
that to move a CRT it must be priced at a healthy discount. If you like your
CRT then stick with it. As for size and shape, only once you have
experienced the layout benefits of the wider aspect ratio and size can you
begin to appreciate it - and not only for PC CS work: try having both
Capture One screens up side by side in a studio, two pages of a page layout
doc side by side, Final Cut Pro etc etc.  Believe me, once you have worked
with the larger screen and wide aspect ratio you will not go back.


> From: "Anthony G. Atkielski" <anthony@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 14:04:59 +0100
> To: Steve Kale <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: LCD vs. CRT
> 
> 
> Steve Kale writes:
> 
>> With its lower resolution, greater power consumption, radiation, size etc.
> 
> CRTs are capable of higher resolutions than flat-panel displays; that's
> one of the advantages of CRTs.
> 
> Power consumption is higher but neither CRTs nor flat panels are huge
> consumers of electrical power.
> 
> There is no radiation problem.
> 
> Size is not too much of a problem, but weight is a serious issue with
> CRTs, and that's one of the main reasons I'm considering flat panels.
> But flat panels cost much more for much less, and they still don't match
> CRTs for image quality (especially at prices that are only two or three
> times those of CRTs).

In any environment where a desk is against a wall the size of a crt becomes
an issue.
> 
>> My point is there is a set of tradeoffs in considering this question but
>> comparing a good CRT with a cheap/poor LCD is inappropriate.
> 
> Not if you're looking at price, which is a key factor in any buying
> decision.
> 
>> Yes a good LCD costs more than a good CRT ...
> 
> Sometimes five times more, for equivalent image quality.
> 
>> ... but compare a quality CRT with a quality LCD.
> 
> Compare $1000 of CRT with $1000 of LCD.
> 
> Compare 20 kg of CRT with 20 kg of LCD.

No - compare the package:  each has a set of + and -
> 
> Depending on which factor you compare, either technology might be
> favored.
> 
> But you need to look at _all_ factors in order to decide which type to
> buy.

Yes - you contradict yourself within 5 sentences


> LCDs have great advantages, but they have great disadvantages,
> too.  That's why they still have not fully replaced CRTs.  And flat
> panels have been around for forty years.

I think the whole point of this discussion is that they have reached a
price/quality point where, as a result, they are replacing CRTs.

> 
>> My 23in Apple CD display has had absolutely
>> no problems for the last year and half.
> 
> My CRT had no problem for the first 7-8 years or so.

Well done - keep it then!

> 
>> If it had one dead pixel I would have sent it back to the supplier.
> 
> And what would they have done?  Some suppliers refuse to take back a
> flat panel that has less than a "minimum acceptable number" of dead
> pixels (as if any number other than zero were acceptable).

I do not care

> 
>> Oh and I can't describe how good it is to have the large 16:9
>> space to work with.
> 
> The 16:9 ratio would a very awkward aspect ratio to work with, I should
> think.  Hardly anything fits neatly within it.  I guess I could use the
> sides for dialog boxes or something.  But I'd still need high resolution
> and square pixels.

I think you would be very surprised but I do not know how you work - try it
and see.

Steve Kale writes:

> I think the whole point of this discussion is that they have reached a
> price/quality point where, as a result, they are replacing CRTs.

I think the whole point of this discussion is that it's not at all clear
which type of monitor someone should choose for photo work.

Right now I'm in exactly that position and there is no clear winner.  If
CRTs weren't so heavy, though, I'd probably go immediately with a CRT.

Hmmm do you not think that the proportion of LCDs in use by photo workers
has increased in recent years?  I do not have the stats but would certainly
bet that it has.  LCD market share, I suspect, is increasing - for all the
reasons we have tediously been debating here.  But hey - this forum is about
the print not the screen image and so I will end my debate there.

> From: "Anthony G. Atkielski" <anthony@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 14:34:24 +0100
> To: Steve Kale <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: LCD vs. CRT
> 
> 
> Steve Kale writes:
> 
>> I think the whole point of this discussion is that they have reached a
>> price/quality point where, as a result, they are replacing CRTs.
> 
> I think the whole point of this discussion is that it's not at all clear
> which type of monitor someone should choose for photo work.
> 
> Right now I'm in exactly that position and there is no clear winner.  If
> CRTs weren't so heavy, though, I'd probably go immediately with a CRT.
>

David Brooks, a recent contributer to this group, and someone whose advice I
have sought and recieved both through his articles over the years as well as
via personal email, has recently evaluated some high end LCDs specificly for
digital photography use. If anyone is interested I've pasted two links to
these articles below.


http://www.shutterbug.net/features/1104sb_lcd/index.html
http://www.shutterbug.net/test_reports/1001sb_lacie/index.html







---
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--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Anthony G. 
Atkielski" <anthony@a...> wrote:
> For $300 I can get a huge CRT monitor with no dead pixels.  So 
that's
> not an excuse.

Well, since no dead pixels play such an important role in your 
evaluations, it seems clear to me that the solution is for you to buy 
CRT monitors.  With the money you save you might purchase an extra 
back to replace the back you will damage lifting the CRT. 

Manufacturers could probably supply zero pixel defect LCD monitors at 
a price, a high price.  Most people would not pay that price.

Steve Kale writes:

> Hmmm do you not think that the proportion of LCDs in use by photo workers
> has increased in recent years?

I don't know.  I rarely visit them.  Last time I actually looked at the
workers at my local pro lab, they all had CRTs.

Bill Cheadle writes:


> David Brooks, a recent contributer to this group, and someone whose advice I
> have sought and recieved both through his articles over the years as well as
> via personal email, has recently evaluated some high end LCDs specificly for
> digital photography use. If anyone is interested I've pasted two links to
> these articles below.

The SDM-204B looks very nice--unfortunately it's terribly expensive.
(However, it's cheaper than my current Sony CRT was eight years ago,
when I bought it.)

Bailey Donnally writes:

> Well, since no dead pixels play such an important role in your
> evaluations, it seems clear to me that the solution is for you to buy 
> CRT monitors.

There must be some LCD manufacturer that is prepared to guarantee no
dead pixels.

> Manufacturers could probably supply zero pixel defect LCD monitors at
> a price, a high price.  Most people would not pay that price.

They can supply them at the current price.  All they have to do is
sacrifice part of their 60% margins.

Anthony,

I have been intrigued by this dialog, following each message. In general I 
have always favored CRTs as you do. However, the new Sony SDM-S204/B 20" LCD 
(I think you may have mentioned this one) is looking pretty favorable. And, 
though not a manufacturer--per se, they apparently do build and/or 
remanufacture their own monitors--I just found an online reseller today 
(monitorsdirect.com) that has a "No Dead Pixel" policy. They aren't the 
cheapest price around, but the dead pixel policy is, I suppose, worth 
something. And, if you're not satisfied, for any reason, for up to 30 days 
they provide a full refund, including one-way worth of shipping. They even 
supply free software for testing the monitor. Or, if you feel they can't be 
trusted this type of testing software is readily available on the 'net.

Alan Huntley

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "Anthony G. Atkielski" <anthony@...>
To: "Bailey Donnally" <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2004 12:22 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: LCD vs. CRT


>There must be some LCD manufacturer that is prepared to guarantee no
>dead pixels.

I know you all have been talking mostly about LCD, but looking over the monitorsdirect.com sit there seem to be a lot of reasonable priced CRT. What CRT would the best bet for the money. I am not sure I am ready to drop a $1000 dollars on a LCD if I can get a CRT for $350.

Thanks for you help.

Steve

<html><body>


<tt>
Anthony,<BR>
<BR>
I have been intrigued by this dialog, following each message. In general I <BR>
have always favored CRTs as you do. However, the new Sony SDM-S204/B 20" LCD <BR>
(I think you may have mentioned this one) is looking pretty favorable. And, <BR>
though not a manufacturer--per se, they apparently do build and/or <BR>
remanufacture their own monitors--I just found an online reseller today <BR>
(monitorsdirect.com) that has a "No Dead Pixel" policy. They aren't the <BR>
cheapest price around, but the dead pixel policy is, I suppose, worth <BR>
something. And, if you're not satisfied, for any reason, for up to 30 days <BR>
they provide a full refund, including one-way worth of shipping. They even <BR>
supply free software for testing the monitor. Or, if you feel they can't be <BR>
trusted this type of testing software is readily available on the 'net.<BR>
<BR>
Alan Huntley<BR>
<BR>
----- Original Message ----- <BR>

From: "Anthony G. Atkielski" <anthony@...><BR>
To: "Bailey Donnally" <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com><BR>
Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2004 12:22 PM<BR>
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: LCD vs. CRT<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>There must be some LCD manufacturer that is prepared to guarantee no<BR>
>dead pixels. <BR>
<BR>
</tt>

<br><br>
<tt>
Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as they are often being updated.<BR>
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</body></html>

Steve  -
 
The NEC-Mitsubishi FE991 (19") can be had for under $300.  I've been using mine for over two years (for b&w and color), and really like it.  There is also a Viewsonic version of this.  The NEC has a 3 year warranty, the Viewsonic is only 1 year I believe.
 
 
Tom Baker

Steve Schaefer <steve_schaefer@...> wrote:

I know you all have been talking mostly about LCD, but looking over the monitorsdirect.com sit there seem to be a lot of reasonable priced CRT. What CRT would the best bet for the money. I am not sure I am ready to drop a $1000 dollars on a LCD if I can get a CRT for $350.

Thanks for you help.

Steve



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thanks Tom

<html><body>


<tt>
 <BR>
Steve  -<BR>
 <BR>
The NEC-Mitsubishi FE991 (19") can be had for under $300.  I've been using mine for over two years (for b&w and color), and really like it.  There is also a Viewsonic version of this.  The NEC has a 3 year warranty, the Viewsonic is only 1 year I believe.<BR>
 <BR>
 <BR>
Tom Baker<BR>
<BR>
Steve Schaefer <steve_schaefer@...> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
I know you all have been talking mostly about LCD, but looking over the monitorsdirect.com sit there seem to be a lot of reasonable priced CRT. What CRT would the best bet for the money. I am not sure I am ready to drop a $1000 dollars on a LCD if I can get a CRT for $350.<BR>
<BR>
Thanks for you help.<BR>
<BR>
Steve<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]<BR>
<BR>
</tt>

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Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as they are often being updated.<BR>
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"There was an amazing lack of sophistication. People asked for autographs - thinking I was Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton and Don King. I didn't care. I signed them."

Rep. CHARLIE RANGEL, a Democrat, telling the New York Daily News about the reception he got at the Republican National Convention.

Hi Steve,

Out of the hundreds of CRTs available out there I really don't know much about most of 'em, however, I've read good things about the Sony G520P (or whatever its equivalent is nowadays.)

Good luck.

Alan Huntley

> 
> From: Steve Schaefer <steve_schaefer@...>
> Date: 2004/11/03 Wed PM 10:20:52 EST
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: LCD vs. CRT
> 
> 
> I know you all have been talking mostly about LCD, but looking over the monitorsdirect.com sit there seem to be a lot of reasonable priced CRT. What CRT would the best bet for the money. I am not sure I am ready to drop a $1000 dollars on a LCD if I can get a CRT for $350.
> 
> Thanks for you help.
> 
> Steve
> 
> <html><body>
> 
> 
> <tt>
> Anthony,<BR>
> <BR>
> I have been intrigued by this dialog, following each message. In general I <BR>
> have always favored CRTs as you do. However, the new Sony SDM-S204/B 20" LCD <BR>
> (I think you may have mentioned this one) is looking pretty favorable. And, <BR>
> though not a manufacturer--per se, they apparently do build and/or <BR>
> remanufacture their own monitors--I just found an online reseller today <BR>
> (monitorsdirect.com) that has a "No Dead Pixel" policy. They aren't the <BR>
> cheapest price around, but the dead pixel policy is, I suppose, worth <BR>
> something. And, if you're not satisfied, for any reason, for up to 30 days <BR>
> they provide a full refund, including one-way worth of shipping. They even <BR>
> supply free software for testing the monitor. Or, if you feel they can't be <BR>
> trusted this type of testing software is readily available on the 'net.<BR>
> <BR>
> Alan Huntley<BR>
> <BR>
> ----- Original Message ----- <BR>
> From: "Anthony G. Atkielski" <anthony@...><BR>
> To: "Bailey Donnally" <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com><BR>
> Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2004 12:22 PM<BR>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: LCD vs. CRT<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> >There must be some LCD manufacturer that is prepared to guarantee no<BR>
> >dead pixels. <BR>
> <BR>
> </tt>
> 
> <br><br>
> <tt>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as they are often being updated.<BR>
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I sort of agree with Steve on this.

The viewsonic E70f is pretty good buy - it looks better than the Philips
107S - the Trinitron tube unit. From specs the Samsung 17 look even better.

Despite what has been said about the advantages of LCD now - 2 things are
also true - a crt is cheaper by at least 1/3, can older graphics card drive
the lcd as it should be driven ? No point spending more for a lcd monitor to
find that you need to upgrade the card to drive it to that kind of quality.
When I get a new system it would most probably be an LCD but for a
replacement monitor that I am looking for now it most probably be a crt.
YMWV on this. Of course if money was no an issue ie some one else is paying
for it I'd gladly go with a 19 inch lcd.

  -----Original Message-----
  From: Steve Schaefer [mailto:steve_schaefer@mindspring.com]
  Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2004 9:41 PM
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: LCD vs. CRT


  Thanks Tom

  <html><body>


  <tt>
  <BR>
  Steve  -<BR>
  <BR>
  The NEC-Mitsubishi FE991 (19") can be had for under $300.  I've been using
mine for over two years (for b&w and color), and really like it.  There is
also a Viewsonic version of this.  The NEC has a 3 year warranty, the
Viewsonic is only 1 year I believe.<BR>
  <BR>
  <BR>
  Tom Baker<BR>
  <BR>
  Steve Schaefer <steve_schaefer@...> wrote:<BR>
  <BR>
  I know you all have been talking mostly about LCD, but looking over the
monitorsdirect.com sit there seem to be a lot of reasonable priced CRT. What
CRT would the best bet for the money. I am not sure I am ready to drop a
$1000 dollars on a LCD if I can get a CRT for $350.<BR>
  <BR>
  Thanks for you help.<BR>
  <BR>
  Steve<BR>
  <BR>
  <BR>
  <BR>
  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]<BR>
  <BR>
  </tt>

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  "There was an amazing lack of sophistication. People asked for
autographs - thinking I was Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton and Don King. I
didn't care. I signed them."

  Rep. CHARLIE RANGEL, a Democrat, telling the New York Daily News about the
reception he got at the Republican National Convention.


  Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
they are often being updated.

  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

My NEC FE991 SB is beginning to wobble after three years of heavy use,
but up until this last week it has held perfectly to calibration (both
the Spyder and latterly the Eye-One Photo spectrophotometer). A real
plus with this CRT is the downloadable free software from NEC which
operates from the Windows desktop (Win2K sp4 in my case). It permits
the user to turn the screen Contrast/Brightness *down* for non-image
work, and turn it back precisely to calibrated levels when needed for
images. This is a real boon, since image work requires light
intensities that hurt the eyes when the computer is turned to other
uses. I'll get another if I can find one in this benighted country.
Bob Bollini

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Schaefer
<steve_schaefer@m...> wrote:
> Thanks Tom
> 
> <html><body>
> 
> 
> <tt>
>  <BR>
> Steve  -<BR>
>  <BR>
> The NEC-Mitsubishi FE991 (19") can be had for under $300.  I've been
using mine for over two years (for b&w and color), and really like
it.  There is also a Viewsonic version of this.  The NEC has a 3 year
warranty, the Viewsonic is only 1 year I believe.<BR>
>  <BR>
>  <BR>
> Tom Baker<BR>
> <BR>
> Steve Schaefer <steve_schaefer@m...> wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> I know you all have been talking mostly about LCD, but looking over
the monitorsdirect.com sit there seem to be a lot of reasonable priced
CRT. What CRT would the best bet for the money. I am not sure I am
ready to drop a $1000 dollars on a LCD if I can get a CRT for
$350.<BR>
> <BR>
> Thanks for you help.<BR>
> <BR>
> Steve<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]<BR>
> <BR>
> </tt>
> 
> <br><br>
> <tt>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other
resources as they are often being updated.<BR>
> <BR>
> <a
href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackan
dWhiteThePrint">http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Digi
talBlackandWhiteThePrint</a><BR>
> <BR>
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this same page.<BR>
> <BR>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:<BR>
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages
to keep them short.<BR>
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from
the membership without notice.<BR>
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital
B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be
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PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE
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AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL
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LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL,
CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO,
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LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF
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> 
> "There was an amazing lack of sophistication. People asked for
autographs - thinking I was Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton and Don King. I
didn't care. I signed them."
> 
> Rep. CHARLIE RANGEL, a Democrat, telling the New York Daily News
about the reception he got at the Republican National Convention.

I prefer a dual monitor setup and bought two "reconditioned"  Lacie Electron
Blue IV CRTs for $199 each (Reg $379). Not all monitors on Lacies clearance
corner are indeed reconditioned. Some are returned inventory which cannot be
sold as new. My monitors were brand new with a 90 day warranty. Right now on
their site, they have 19's available for 199 and 22's for $499. I've been
more than happy. BTW, I'm talking aboti Lacie's website.
Thanks!
JOe

  -----Original Message-----
  From: Alan.Huntley@... [mailto:Alan.Huntley@...]
  Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2004 8:00 AM
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: Re: Re: [Digital BW] Re: LCD vs. CRT


  Hi Steve,

  Out of the hundreds of CRTs available out there I really don't know much
about most of 'em, however, I've read good things about the Sony G520P (or
whatever its equivalent is nowadays.)

  Good luck.

  Alan Huntley

  >
  > From: Steve Schaefer <steve_schaefer@...>
  > Date: 2004/11/03 Wed PM 10:20:52 EST
  > To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: LCD vs. CRT
  >
  >
  > I know you all have been talking mostly about LCD, but looking over the
monitorsdirect.com sit there seem to be a lot of reasonable priced CRT. What
CRT would the best bet for the money. I am not sure I am ready to drop a
$1000 dollars on a LCD if I can get a CRT for $350.
  >
  > Thanks for you help.
  >
  > Steve
  >
  > <html><body>
  >
  >
  > <tt>
  > Anthony,<BR>
  > <BR>
  > I have been intrigued by this dialog, following each message. In general
I <BR>
  > have always favored CRTs as you do. However, the new Sony SDM-S204/B 20"
LCD <BR>
  > (I think you may have mentioned this one) is looking pretty favorable.
And, <BR>
  > though not a manufacturer--per se, they apparently do build and/or <BR>
  > remanufacture their own monitors--I just found an online reseller today
<BR>
  > (monitorsdirect.com) that has a "No Dead Pixel" policy. They aren't the
<BR>
  > cheapest price around, but the dead pixel policy is, I suppose, worth
<BR>
  > something. And, if you're not satisfied, for any reason, for up to 30
days <BR>
  > they provide a full refund, including one-way worth of shipping. They
even <BR>
  > supply free software for testing the monitor. Or, if you feel they can't
be <BR>
  > trusted this type of testing software is readily available on the
'net.<BR>
  > <BR>
  > Alan Huntley<BR>
  > <BR>
  > ----- Original Message ----- <BR>
  > From: "Anthony G. Atkielski" <anthony@...><BR>
  > To: "Bailey Donnally" <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com><BR>
  > Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2004 12:22 PM<BR>
  > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: LCD vs. CRT<BR>
  > <BR>
  > <BR>
  > >There must be some LCD manufacturer that is prepared to guarantee
no<BR>
  > >dead pixels. <BR>
  > <BR>
  > </tt>
  >
  > <br><br>
  > <


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