Digital BW, The Print

A skeptic recently said to me, "Ansel Adams cannot be compressed into
256 shades of gray." I have seen plenty of literature that says we
cannot distinguish anything close to 256 different shades of gray
(I've seen the number 64 mentioned a couple times), making this
statement look a bit uninformed. But it nevertheless got me thinking:

How many discrete levels of gray (measured with a 12-bit scanner or
densitometer) do we get out of a quadtone inkjet? Can careful curve
mapping actually pull out a distinct 256 values? The answer "enough"
is good enough for the subjective viewer, but being curious...

Just wondering if anyone has done this, or if it should be my exercise
for this weekend. 

-Pieris

Pieris,

>How many discrete levels of gray ... do we get out of a quadtone inkjet?
...

I printed a 256 test chart with the C86 and EZ inks.  My X-Rite (DPT 22) was
able to measure the difference between all the steps with 2 exceptions.  The
top and bottom 2 steps were essentially the same. 

I was amazed at how well the little printer did.

A more interesting question might be whether the most expensive RIPs can
match the C86.

I, for sure, don't have the patience to see if one of the 16 bit printing
utilities (like IJC) can separate all those levels.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

But can our eye see anything like this number of steps?  J Vee

On 1/12/05 12:28 PM, "Paul Roark" <paul.roark@...> wrote:

> Pieris,
> 
>> >How many discrete levels of gray ... do we get out of a quadtone inkjet?
> ...
> 
> I printed a 256 test chart with the C86 and EZ inks.  My X-Rite (DPT 22) was
> able to measure the difference between all the steps with 2 exceptions.  The
> top and bottom 2 steps were essentially the same.
> 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

The short answer is yes, we can see them. The issue is how good are we at 
visually distinguishing closely related tonal values. Segmented tonal ramps are 
easier to use, for this reason, than continuos ramps. A 256 segmented tonal 
ramp isn't particularly useful as a visual aid, but its easier measured with a 
densitometer or spectrophotometer. The familiar 21-step tonal ramp is useful.

What really matters is how much tonal information is necessary to produce 
beautiful artifact free prints. It depends on subject matter and print size, 
among other issues. The short answer: as much tonal information as possible, 
preferably in 16-bit.



Bill Kennedy
Associate Professor of Photocommunications
St. Edward's University
512/448-8680


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dunno, but you would be hard pressed to display that many on a typical
monitor, even a pretty good one.  Unless you are running something like an
Artisan with a good video card, your profile will likely produce banding
that makes different shades appear the same.

Create a new working RGB document in photoshop that is say about 5 times
wider than your monitor, i.e. ~5000 pixels wide if your monitor is 1024
wide.  Paint in a horizontal black-to-white gradient, then select
image-adjustments-posterize and put in 128 for number of shades.  Zoom to
100%.  You should now have 128 bands of gray 5 pixels wide.  You will likely
see that your monitor is not capable of smooth transitions, and it's real
hard to discern the really dark ones.  Bummer.

Now, do the same thing, (leave the first one on screen) but instead of your
working RGB, create the new document in your working gray space.  Look at
the dark end of the gradient, wow that's cool..

John

-----Original Message-----
From: J Vee [mailto:j.vee@...]
Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2005 2:55 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] How many shades of gray

But can our eye see anything like this number of steps?  J Vee




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

This reminds me of the old audiophile arguements. Why have a system
that can reproduce a frequency range beyond our hearing? Another short
answer is- because it sounds better.
So, in spite of all the numbers about how many tones the human
eye/brain can distinguish I'd agree with Bill, as many as possible.
Great platinum prints, despite the limited demsity range, "seem" to
have more grays, seems to be infinite actually, even if it's just an
impression.
I've seen this dicussion many times over the years, and I can't help
but always conclude that there is no reason to say enough is enough.
We are dealing with a glorified half tone process here with our
inkjets, so we're not truly continuous tone to begin with, we are
implying continuous tone. Working toward more and more tones seems wise.
It gets down to making a print that is beautiful, and more available
tones is one factor moving in that direction.
Tyler

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, BKPhoto@a... wrote:
> The short answer is yes, we can see them. The issue is how good are
we at 
> visually distinguishing closely related tonal values. Segmented
tonal ramps are 
> easier to use, for this reason, than continuos ramps. A 256
segmented tonal 
> ramp isn't particularly useful as a visual aid, but its easier
measured with a 
> densitometer or spectrophotometer. The familiar 21-step tonal ramp
is useful.
> 
> What really matters is how much tonal information is necessary to
produce 
> beautiful artifact free prints. It depends on subject matter and
print size, 
> among other issues. The short answer: as much tonal information as
possible, 

> preferably in 16-bit.
> 
> 
> 
> Bill Kennedy
> Associate Professor of Photocommunications
> St. Edward's University
> 512/448-8680
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Tyler Boley wrote:

>
> This reminds me of the old audiophile arguements. Why have a system
> that can reproduce a frequency range beyond our hearing? Another short
> answer is- because it sounds better.
> So, in spite of all the numbers about how many tones the human
> eye/brain can distinguish I'd agree with Bill, as many as possible.
> Great platinum prints, despite the limited demsity range, "seem" to
> have more grays, seems to be infinite actually, even if it's just an
> impression.
> I've seen this dicussion many times over the years, and I can't help
> but always conclude that there is no reason to say enough is enough.
> We are dealing with a glorified half tone process here with our
> inkjets, so we're not truly continuous tone to begin with, we are
> implying continuous tone. Working toward more and more tones seems wise.
> It gets down to making a print that is beautiful, and more available
> tones is one factor moving in that direction.
> Tyler
>
That sums it up nicely I think.
--
Hogarth Hughes

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Pieris Berreitter" 
<pieris@y...> wrote:
> 
> A skeptic recently said to me, "Ansel Adams cannot be compressed into
> 256 shades of gray." I have seen plenty of literature that says we
> cannot distinguish anything close to 256 different shades of gray
> (I've seen the number 64 mentioned a couple times), making this
> statement look a bit uninformed. But it nevertheless got me thinking:
> 
> How many discrete levels of gray (measured with a 12-bit scanner or
> densitometer) do we get out of a quadtone inkjet? Can careful curve
> mapping actually pull out a distinct 256 values? The answer "enough"
> is good enough for the subjective viewer, but being curious...
> 
> Just wondering if anyone has done this, or if it should be my exercise
> for this weekend. 
> 
> -Pieris

I think studies have been done that put the number of distinguishable
grays on paper by the human eye somewhere near 100.   But you need
more than that because in a smooth gradation you don't want two
distinguishable grays right next to each other.  That would show a
transition.  To get a smooth transition you need at least a gray in between 
that doesn't appear distinguishable from either of the other two.
This probably puts you in the ballpark of 256 grays.

I think this is the main fuel for the ongoing debate of 8 bit vs 16 bit
workflow and image files.  This argument misses an important issue
I believe.   Sure 8 bits = 256 values, but any measurement of gray 
value contains many pixels or many ink dots on paper.  On an Epson
printer printing at 1440x720 a small 1/16 inch square is made up of
over 4000 potential dots of several inks.  How many different grays
you can measure has a lot more to do with the specs of the densitometer
rather than the 8 bit pixel data.  It may seem counter-intuitive but 
you can easily measure more that 256 grays with just an 8 bit file.

What is important if you do get to measuring grays is that they are 
reasonably even-spaced over the whole range.

Roy

Hm, so there are RIPs that print 16-bit images... I know QTR uses
8-bit TIFFs and I assumed the Epson printer driver is 8-bit only. I
had assumed 16-bit workflows are only useful during manipulation, and
I guess that's valid unless you have a 16-bit RIP.

Roy made a good point that I hadn't considered: you need to (at least)
double the number of grays we can distinguish between to prevent the
eye from seeing banding in continuous-tone regions.

"Metrology mania" aside, I have so far not seen a case of banding that
couldn't be tracked back to the image file.

-Pieris

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark"
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> Pieris,
> 
> >How many discrete levels of gray ... do we get out of a quadtone
inkjet?
> ...
> 
> I printed a 256 test chart with the C86 and EZ inks.  My X-Rite (DPT
22) was
> able to measure the difference between all the steps with 2
exceptions.  The
> top and bottom 2 steps were essentially the same. 
> 
> I was amazed at how well the little printer did.
> 
> A more interesting question might be whether the most expensive RIPs can
> match the C86.
> 
> I, for sure, don't have the patience to see if one of the 16 bit
printing

> utilities (like IJC) can separate all those levels.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com

I have seen banding in prints from 8 bit files several times. But
related to one of your comments- contrast manipulation of an 8 bit
original. It's worth noting that there is also loss when editing 16
bit files, it's just that you're usually still left with far more then
256 levels after the fact.
Banding that is not a file problem can occur as well, say from
imperfect partitioning for quads, basically any non linear workflow or
output system. I've seen banded color output caused by bad profiles.
Whether or not some drivers or RIPs actually utilize 16 bit in is
still not certain. Because they may accept it doesn't necessarly mean
they use it.
Tyler

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Pieris
Berreitter" <pieris@y...> wrote:
> 
> Hm, so there are RIPs that print 16-bit images... I know QTR uses
> 8-bit TIFFs and I assumed the Epson printer driver is 8-bit only. I
> had assumed 16-bit workflows are only useful during manipulation, and
> I guess that's valid unless you have a 16-bit RIP.
> 
> Roy made a good point that I hadn't considered: you need to (at least)
> double the number of grays we can distinguish between to prevent the
> eye from seeing banding in continuous-tone regions.
> 
> "Metrology mania" aside, I have so far not seen a case of banding that
> couldn't be tracked back to the image file.
> 
> -Pieris
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark"
> <paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> > Pieris,
> > 
> > >How many discrete levels of gray ... do we get out of a quadtone
> inkjet?
> > ...
> > 
> > I printed a 256 test chart with the C86 and EZ inks.  My X-Rite (DPT
> 22) was
> > able to measure the difference between all the steps with 2
> exceptions.  The
> > top and bottom 2 steps were essentially the same. 
> > 
> > I was amazed at how well the little printer did.
> > 
> > A more interesting question might be whether the most expensive
RIPs can

> > match the C86.
> > 
> > I, for sure, don't have the patience to see if one of the 16 bit
> printing
> > utilities (like IJC) can separate all those levels.
> > 
> > Paul
> > www.PaulRoark.com

>
>  Banding that is not a file problem can occur as well, say from
>  imperfect partitioning for quads, basically any non linear workflow or
>  output system. I've seen banded color output caused by bad profiles.
>
>  Tyler
>

I once corrected a banding problem on the original Cone Piezo system by 
resizing the file so that its  resolution no longer contained a 
decimal.

James

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Pieris
Berreitter" <pieris@y...> wrote:
> 
> Hm, so there are RIPs that print 16-bit images... I know QTR uses
> 8-bit TIFFs and I assumed the Epson printer driver is 8-bit only. I
> had assumed 16-bit workflows are only useful during manipulation, and
> I guess that's valid unless you have a 16-bit RIP.

The Profiles are 16-bit and so is the RIP so that it maps the 8bit
tiff smoothly.

> 
> Roy made a good point that I hadn't considered: you need to (at least)
> double the number of grays we can distinguish between to prevent the
> eye from seeing banding in continuous-tone regions.
> 
> "Metrology mania" aside, I have so far not seen a case of banding that
> couldn't be tracked back to the image file.

I have seen many cases of banding that are printer related.
The problem with a generalisation like this
is that it is almost certainly going to be wrong.

> 
> -Pieris
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark"
> <paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> > Pieris,
> > 
> > >How many discrete levels of gray ... do we get out of a quadtone
> inkjet?
> > ...
> > 
> > I printed a 256 test chart with the C86 and EZ inks.  My X-Rite (DPT
> 22) was
> > able to measure the difference between all the steps with 2
> exceptions.  The
> > top and bottom 2 steps were essentially the same. 
> > 
> > I was amazed at how well the little printer did.
> > 
> > A more interesting question might be whether the most expensive
RIPs can

> > match the C86.
> > 
> > I, for sure, don't have the patience to see if one of the 16 bit
> printing
> > utilities (like IJC) can separate all those levels.
> > 
> > Paul
> > www.PaulRoark.com

Now that is the question of the year for me! Since Photoshop CS came out I have done all 
my image alteraton in 16 bit and I have noticed a tonal difference is large files from drum 
scans especially, and even more so if I have to upsample a little as in working with smaller 
format originals ( big prints from 35). 

Does anyone know the answer to what Tyler just described???? Is it possible to send a 16 
bit file to the printer and not have the printer convert it to 8 bit on the fly? I guess this 
could be printer dependent, huh? I'm talking about the newer Epson large format 
machines. For me this seems to be the next big step for us if it is not yet possible to 
utilize 16 bit within the printing process.  We certanly need to be doing this. Roy are you 
listening,( you da man)?

John

> Whether or not some drivers or RIPs actually utilize 16 bit in is
> still not certain. Because they may accept it doesn't necessarly mean
> they use it.
> Tyler
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Pieris
> Berreitter" <pieris@y...> wrote:
> > 
> > Hm, so there are RIPs that print 16-bit images... I know QTR uses
> > 8-bit TIFFs and I assumed the Epson printer driver is 8-bit only. I
> > had assumed 16-bit workflows are only useful during manipulation, and
> > I guess that's valid unless you have a 16-bit RIP.
> > 
> > Roy made a good point that I hadn't considered: you need to (at least)
> > double the number of grays we can distinguish between to prevent the
> > eye from seeing banding in continuous-tone regions.
> > 
> > "Metrology mania" aside, I have so far not seen a case of banding that
> > couldn't be tracked back to the image file.
> > 
> > -Pieris
> > 
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark"
> > <paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> > > Pieris,
> > > 
> > > >How many discrete levels of gray ... do we get out of a quadtone
> > inkjet?
> > > ...
> > > 
> > > I printed a 256 test chart with the C86 and EZ inks.  My X-Rite (DPT
> > 22) was
> > > able to measure the difference between all the steps with 2
> > exceptions.  The
> > > top and bottom 2 steps were essentially the same. 
> > > 
> > > I was amazed at how well the little printer did.
> > > 
> > > A more interesting question might be whether the most expensive
> RIPs can
> > > match the C86.
> > > 
> > > I, for sure, don't have the patience to see if one of the 16 bit
> > printing
> > > utilities (like IJC) can separate all those levels.
> > > 
> > > Paul
> > > www.PaulRoark.com

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "john dean"
<deanwork2003@y...> wrote:
> 
> ...Is it possible to send a 16 
> bit file to the printer and not have the printer convert it to 8 bit
on the fly? I guess this 
> could be printer dependent, huh? I'm talking about the newer Epson
large format 
> machines.

It won't have anything to do with the specific printer. It'll be a
driver/RIP issue. 
Tyler

OPM/IJC from Bowhaus uses 16 bit for printing.

I quote from their website:

...All of IJC/OPM profiles and rendering algorithms operate in 16-
bit, over 65 million shades of gray, resulting in smoother gradations 
and transitions. IJC/OPM internally converts all 8-bit grayscale 
files to 16-bit during printing to take advantage of the 16-bit 
profiles and rendering algorithms (16-bit files remain 16-bit)....

Peter.

From:  "Pieris Berreitter" <pieris@y...>

>Roy made a good point that I hadn't considered: you need to (at >least)
>double the number of grays we can distinguish between to prevent the
>eye from seeing banding in continuous-tone regions.

I think he said at least twice as many as we can recognise between.
Something like the Nyquist(sp?) sampling theory.

-- "Tyler Boley" <tyler@t...> wrote:
> 

> I've seen this dicussion many times over the years, and I can't help
> but always conclude that there is no reason to say enough is enough.
> We are dealing with a glorified half tone process here with our
> inkjets, so we're not truly continuous tone to begin with, we are
> implying continuous tone. Working toward more and more tones seems wise.
> It gets down to making a print that is beautiful, and more available
> tones is one factor moving in that direction.
> Tyler

It would appear that continuous tone is also in the eye of the
beholder as even film is only continuous tone in appearance--ie: at
micro levels the image consists of small bits and clumps of silver or
dyes. Something like dots and dithering? ;)

The beautiful part says it all Tyler.

Duane

I'm getting out of my element here, but my understanding is that all
printer drivers make 16 bit ramps internally. Also, many profiles,
even color, use 16 bit LUTs. Of course IJC/OPM probably does not use
icc profiles in the strictest sense, but if their "profiles" use LUTs,
that's probably where that statement applies.
So some of this would not be extremely informative, until you see this-
"(16-bit files remain 16-bit)".
That answers the question.
Tyler

---- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "bwbonkers"
<PeterDLevis@a...> wrote:

> 
> OPM/IJC from Bowhaus uses 16 bit for printing.
> 
> I quote from their website:
> 
> ...All of IJC/OPM profiles and rendering algorithms operate in 16-
> bit, over 65 million shades of gray, resulting in smoother gradations 
> and transitions. IJC/OPM internally converts all 8-bit grayscale 
> files to 16-bit during printing to take advantage of the 16-bit 
> profiles and rendering algorithms (16-bit files remain 16-bit)....
> 
> Peter.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "dlruckus"
<dlruckus@y...> wrote:
...
> It would appear that continuous tone is also in the eye of the
> beholder as even film is only continuous tone in appearance--ie: at
> micro levels the image consists of small bits and clumps of silver or
> dyes. Something like dots and dithering? ;)

Right, my use of the term was dicey. However I believe (could be
wrong) that those clumps have a variable density based on exposure, so
it's not just single density dots utilizing spacing and size like inkjet.
Of course we also have more then one ink density being utilized.
Tyler

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "bwbonkers" 
<PeterDLevis@a...> wrote:
> 
> OPM/IJC from Bowhaus uses 16 bit for printing.
> 
> I quote from their website:
> 
> ...All of IJC/OPM profiles and rendering algorithms operate in 16-
> bit, over 65 million shades of gray, resulting in smoother gradations 

Looks like a typo -- 65 thousand not million.
Even that's somewhat of an exaggeration -- Photoshop maxes out
at half that.

> and transitions. IJC/OPM internally converts all 8-bit grayscale 
> files to 16-bit during printing to take advantage of the 16-bit 
> profiles and rendering algorithms (16-bit files remain 16-bit)....
> 
> Peter.

Hello Roy,

Your absolutely right, 16 bit greyscale is 65 thousand shades.

It is incorrect on our web site, will be fixing that.

( I wish we had 65 million shades to work with.)

Thank you.

Joe


On 1/13/05 12:52 PM, "Roy Harrington" <roy@...> wrote:

> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "bwbonkers"
> <PeterDLevis@a...> wrote:
>> > 
>> > OPM/IJC from Bowhaus uses 16 bit for printing.
>> > 
>> > I quote from their website:
>> > 
>> > ...All of IJC/OPM profiles and rendering algorithms operate in 16-
>> > bit, over 65 million shades of gray, resulting in smoother gradations
> 
> Looks like a typo -- 65 thousand not million.
> Even that's somewhat of an exaggeration -- Photoshop maxes out
> at half that.
> 
>> > and transitions. IJC/OPM internally converts all 8-bit grayscale
>> > files to 16-bit during printing to take advantage of the 16-bit
>> > profiles and rendering algorithms (16-bit files remain 16-bit)....
>> > 
>> > Peter.
> 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Tyler,

Yes, IJC/OPM is completely 16 bit,  image files that are 16 bit remain 16
bit and all 8 bit files are internally converted to 16bit .  We drive the
printer with this 16bit data.

OPM uses it¹s own method to connect and print to the printer,  it completely
by-passes the Epson driver  and all  system  related printing methods.

OPM actually opens a direct handle to the printer and steams the data
directly to it.  

Joe Berndt



On 1/13/05 10:46 AM, "Tyler Boley" <tyler@...> wrote:

> 
> I'm getting out of my element here, but my understanding is that all
> printer drivers make 16 bit ramps internally. Also, many profiles,
> even color, use 16 bit LUTs. Of course IJC/OPM probably does not use
> icc profiles in the strictest sense, but if their "profiles" use LUTs,
> that's probably where that statement applies.
> So some of this would not be extremely informative, until you see this-
> "(16-bit files remain 16-bit)".
> That answers the question.
> Tyler
> 
> ---- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "bwbonkers"
> <PeterDLevis@a...> wrote:
>> > 
>> > OPM/IJC from Bowhaus uses 16 bit for printing.
>> > 
>> > I quote from their website:
>> > 
>> > ...All of IJC/OPM profiles and rendering algorithms operate in 16-
>> > bit, over 65 million shades of gray, resulting in smoother gradations
>> > and transitions. IJC/OPM internally converts all 8-bit grayscale
>> > files to 16-bit during printing to take advantage of the 16-bit
>> > profiles and rendering algorithms (16-bit files remain 16-bit)....
>> > 
>> > Peter.
> 
> 
> 




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Joe Berndt <joeberndt@v...> 
wrote:

> Yes, IJC/OPM is completely 16 bit,  image files that are 16 bit remain 16
> bit and all 8 bit files are internally converted to 16bit .  We drive the
> printer with this 16bit data.
> 
> OPM uses it¹s own method to connect and print to the printer,  it completely
> by-passes the Epson driver  and all  system  related printing methods.
> 
> OPM actually opens a direct handle to the printer and steams the data
> directly to it.  
> 
> Joe Berndt
>

Joe, for newbies like me: is the OPM side of the program easy to operate with the 
canned profiles?  I think I would not use the IJC side for quite a while.

Thanks,

Martin

What LUT means ?

Thanks for your light.

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Tyler Boley 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2005 7:46 PM
  Subject: [Digital BW] Re: 16 bit and printer output -???



  I'm getting out of my element here, but my understanding is that all
  printer drivers make 16 bit ramps internally. Also, many profiles,
  even color, use 16 bit LUTs. Of course IJC/OPM probably does not use
  icc profiles in the strictest sense, but if their "profiles" use LUTs,
  that's probably where that statement applies.
  So some of this would not be extremely informative, until you see this-
  "(16-bit files remain 16-bit)".
  That answers the question.
  Tyler



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Martin asked:
> From: mxgo95747
> Joe, for newbies like me: is the OPM side of the program
> easy to operate with the canned profiles?  I think I would
> not use the IJC side for quite a while.

I'm not Joe -- but I've been working with IJC/OPM for a while, and I was
a beta tester.

I think you'll find OPM fairly easy to use, once you get your arms
around what's going on. This may not be obvious immediately, but you'll
probably be fine with it in an hour, more or less.

Richard Wolfson
Fine Art Photographer & Digital Imaging Consultant

look up table

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "sinwen"
<sinwen@f...> wrote:
> What LUT means ?
> 
> Thanks for your light.
> 
> 
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
>   From: Tyler Boley 
>   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
>   Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2005 7:46 PM
>   Subject: [Digital BW] Re: 16 bit and printer output -???
> 
> 
> 
>   I'm getting out of my element here, but my understanding is that all
>   printer drivers make 16 bit ramps internally. Also, many profiles,
>   even color, use 16 bit LUTs. Of course IJC/OPM probably does not use
>   icc profiles in the strictest sense, but if their "profiles" use LUTs,
>   that's probably where that statement applies.
>   So some of this would not be extremely informative, until you see
this-

>   "(16-bit files remain 16-bit)".
>   That answers the question.
>   Tyler
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

It makes good sense for the software to be completely 16 bit. That
means that profiles and image file are 16 bit. These are most usually
not floating point so that at the ends of the scale the relative
errors are large if 8 bit. Having only one meaningful limitation makes
the outcome far more predictable.

The only limitation that should be felt is that of the printer.

Here; it is not magic, a set of halftone paterns are enumerated and
appear, when covering a reasonably sized swatch to be one density or
another, but with different sqirt amounts and dot gain the enumerated
list of densities may not even be monotonic; let alone able to map the
full range of a 8 bit number. As well particulaly with pigment
printers there is an ink maximum past which the density decreases. The
 profiling software needs to be smart enough to reject some patterns
to get a stable monotonic function to use in printing.

From inspection of the Epson NCA grayscale one finds a flat black toe
so that even Epson is not finding sufficient enumerable patterns to
fill the 8 bit space. From the length of the toe for the 2200 there
are about 30 or so steps less than 255 available.

...John

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Joe Berndt
<joeberndt@v...> wrote:
> Tyler,
> 
> Yes, IJC/OPM is completely 16 bit,  image files that are 16 bit
remain 16
> bit and all 8 bit files are internally converted to 16bit .  We
drive the
> printer with this 16bit data.
> 
> OPM uses it¹s own method to connect and print to the printer,  it
completely
> by-passes the Epson driver  and all  system  related printing methods.
> 
> OPM actually opens a direct handle to the printer and steams the data
> directly to it.  
> 
> Joe Berndt
> 
> 
> 
> On 1/13/05 10:46 AM, "Tyler Boley" <tyler@t...> wrote:
> 
> > 
> > I'm getting out of my element here, but my understanding is that all
> > printer drivers make 16 bit ramps internally. Also, many profiles,
> > even color, use 16 bit LUTs. Of course IJC/OPM probably does not use
> > icc profiles in the strictest sense, but if their "profiles" use LUTs,
> > that's probably where that statement applies.
> > So some of this would not be extremely informative, until you see
this-
> > "(16-bit files remain 16-bit)".
> > That answers the question.
> > Tyler
> > 
> > ---- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "bwbonkers"
> > <PeterDLevis@a...> wrote:
> >> > 
> >> > OPM/IJC from Bowhaus uses 16 bit for printing.
> >> > 
> >> > I quote from their website:
> >> > 
> >> > ...All of IJC/OPM profiles and rendering algorithms operate in 16-
> >> > bit, over 65 million shades of gray, resulting in smoother
gradations

> >> > and transitions. IJC/OPM internally converts all 8-bit grayscale
> >> > files to 16-bit during printing to take advantage of the 16-bit
> >> > profiles and rendering algorithms (16-bit files remain 16-bit)....
> >> > 
> >> > Peter.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

John said:  "...From the length of the toe for the 2200 there are about 30 or so steps less than 255 available..."
 
I don't know about the 2200, but if you were addressing the 7600/9600 I would suggest that what you are seeing is a limitation of the Epson drivers and not the printer.
 
Tom Baker

johnglodge <john.lodge@...> wrote:


It makes good sense for the software to be completely 16 bit. That
means that profiles and image file are 16 bit. These are most usually
not floating point so that at the ends of the scale the relative
errors are large if 8 bit. Having only one meaningful limitation makes
the outcome far more predictable.

The only limitation that should be felt is that of the printer.

Here; it is not magic, a set of halftone paterns are enumerated and
appear, when covering a reasonably sized swatch to be one density or
another, but with different sqirt amounts and dot gain the enumerated
list of densities may not even be monotonic; let alone able to map the
full range of a 8 bit number. As well particulaly with pigment
printers there is an ink maximum past which the density decreases. The
profiling software needs to be smart enough to reject some patterns
to get a stable monotonic function to use in printing.

From inspection of the Epson NCA grayscale one finds a flat black toe
so that even Epson is not finding sufficient enumerable patterns to
fill the 8 bit space. From the length of the toe for the 2200 there
are about 30 or so steps less than 255 available.

...John

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Joe Berndt
wrote:
> Tyler,
> 
> Yes, IJC/OPM is completely 16 bit, image files that are 16 bit
remain 16
> bit and all 8 bit files are internally converted to 16bit . We
drive the
> printer with this 16bit data.
> 
> OPM uses it�s own method to connect and print to the printer, it
completely
> by-passes the Epson driver and all system related printing methods.
> 
> OPM actually opens a direct handle to the printer and steams the data
> directly to it. 
> 
> Joe Berndt
> 
> 
> 
> On 1/13/05 10:46 AM, "Tyler Boley" wrote:
> 
> > 
> > I'm getting out of my element here, but my understanding is that all
> > printer drivers make 16 bit ramps internally. Also, many profiles,
> > even color, use 16 bit LUTs. Of course IJC/OPM probably does not use
> > icc profiles in the strictest sense, but if their "profiles" use LUTs,
> > that's probably where that statement applies.
> > So some of this would not be extremely informative, until you see
this-
> > "(16-bit files remain 16-bit)".
> > That answers the question.
> > Tyler
> > 
> > ---- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "bwbonkers"
> > 
wrote:
> >> > 
> >> > OPM/IJC from Bowhaus uses 16 bit for printing.
> >> > 
> >> > I quote from their website:
> >> > 
> >> > ...All of IJC/OPM profiles and rendering algorithms operate in 16-
> >> > bit, over 65 million shades of gray, resulting in smoother
gradations
> >> > and transitions. IJC/OPM internally converts all 8-bit grayscale
> >> > files to 16-bit during printing to take advantage of the 16-bit
> >> > profiles and rendering algorithms (16-bit files remain 16-bit)....
> >> > 
> >> > Peter.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sorry I missed out on this conversation that I started.  To me it is significant, for the 
present as well as the future. I was teaching a class on post production tonight  where I 
just explained to the students that they should always try to capture and scan a file, and 
work on it in 16 bit but, that it was totally redundant and a time drag to ever send this file 
to the Epson printer as 16 bit because it would be converted to 8 bit at printing anyway. 
So? How far off am I? Tyler suggests that it is not doing this at output rip time.

I'm still confused - if you send a fine drum or digital camera file scan to the Epson printer ( 
without a rip or specialized software ) in 16 bit color, is there any difference visible 
difference between that print and the same file going to the printer as an 8 bit color file? 

My comment to the class is that we can scan in 16 bit, now we can do all the PS 
manipulations in 16 bit, but WE can't print from it with any added value? Is this true or 
not? I would think that outputting to film would be more of a process that could utilize it 
but ink on paper? Would you even see that extra data? 

My final question is: even with this specialized rip and profiling application that this 
company claims they have, that ya'll are refering to, is the printer mechanism capable of 
utilizing this extra color ( and tonal ) depth? From the comments below I would think not, 
but I'm very sure that I have no idea. Nor do I know if rips like Studio Print or Imageprint 
have the ability to utilize 16 bit is some different way that the generic Epson drivers do. To 
me this would seem like a major thing to consider these days with everything capturing in 
16 bit, but I never hear anyone discussing it.

John

> 
> It makes good sense for the software to be completely 16 bit. That
> means that profiles and image file are 16 bit. These are most usually
> not floating point so that at the ends of the scale the relative
> errors are large if 8 bit. Having only one meaningful limitation makes
> the outcome far more predictable.
> 
> The only limitation that should be felt is that of the printer.
> 
> Here; it is not magic, a set of halftone paterns are enumerated and
> appear, when covering a reasonably sized swatch to be one density or
> another, but with different sqirt amounts and dot gain the enumerated
> list of densities may not even be monotonic; let alone able to map the
> full range of a 8 bit number. As well particulaly with pigment
> printers there is an ink maximum past which the density decreases. The
>  profiling software needs to be smart enough to reject some patterns
> to get a stable monotonic function to use in printing.
> 
> From inspection of the Epson NCA grayscale one finds a flat black toe
> so that even Epson is not finding sufficient enumerable patterns to
> fill the 8 bit space. From the length of the toe for the 2200 there
> are about 30 or so steps less than 255 available.
> 
> ...John
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Joe Berndt
> <joeberndt@v...> wrote:
> > Tyler,
> > 
> > Yes, IJC/OPM is completely 16 bit,  image files that are 16 bit
> remain 16
> > bit and all 8 bit files are internally converted to 16bit .  We
> drive the
> > printer with this 16bit data.
> > 
> > OPM uses it¹s own method to connect and print to the printer,  it
> completely
> > by-passes the Epson driver  and all  system  related printing methods.
> > 
> > OPM actually opens a direct handle to the printer and steams the data
> > directly to it.  
> > 
> > Joe Berndt
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > On 1/13/05 10:46 AM, "Tyler Boley" <tyler@t...> wrote:
> > 
> > > 
> > > I'm getting out of my element here, but my understanding is that all
> > > printer drivers make 16 bit ramps internally. Also, many profiles,
> > > even color, use 16 bit LUTs. Of course IJC/OPM probably does not use
> > > icc profiles in the strictest sense, but if their "profiles" use LUTs,
> > > that's probably where that statement applies.
> > > So some of this would not be extremely informative, until you see
> this-
> > > "(16-bit files remain 16-bit)".
> > > That answers the question.
> > > Tyler
> > > 
> > > ---- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "bwbonkers"
> > > <PeterDLevis@a...> wrote:
> > >> > 
> > >> > OPM/IJC from Bowhaus uses 16 bit for printing.
> > >> > 
> > >> > I quote from their website:
> > >> > 
> > >> > ...All of IJC/OPM profiles and rendering algorithms operate in 16-
> > >> > bit, over 65 million shades of gray, resulting in smoother
> gradations
> > >> > and transitions. IJC/OPM internally converts all 8-bit grayscale
> > >> > files to 16-bit during printing to take advantage of the 16-bit
> > >> > profiles and rendering algorithms (16-bit files remain 16-bit)....
> > >> > 
> > >> > Peter.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "john dean"
<deanwork2003@y...> wrote:
> 
>...it was totally redundant and a time drag to ever send this file 
> to the Epson printer as 16 bit because it would be converted to 8
bit at printing anyway. 
> So? How far off am I? Tyler suggests that it is not doing this at
output rip time.

John, don't confuse the printer with the driver or RIP.
As posted here, IJC/OPM utilizes 16 bit input. To the same printer, we
know the Epson driver does not and PS will convert to 8 for it on the
fly. I'm not sure about other RIPs and drivers. StudioPrint accepts a
16 bit file, whether or not it takes full advantage of it I don't
know. Also, based on what Roy said, we know QTR does not utilize 16 bits.
This has nothing to do with the printer, but everything to do with the
driver or RIP being used.

> 
> I'm still confused - if you send a fine drum or digital camera file
scan to the Epson printer ( 
> without a rip or specialized software ) in 16 bit color, is there
any difference visible 
> difference between that print and the same file going to the printer
as an 8 bit color file? 

No, since you are using the Epson driver it will be converted to 8
anyway behind your back

> 
> My comment to the class is that we can scan in 16 bit, now we can do
all the PS 
> manipulations in 16 bit, but WE can't print from it with any added
value? Is this true or 
> not? I would think that outputting to film would be more of a
process that could utilize it 
> but ink on paper? Would you even see that extra data? 

That's what is up to all of us to determine for ourselves based on
particular methods, materials, and eyes.

> 
> My final question is: even with this specialized rip and profiling
application that this 
> company claims they have, that ya'll are refering to, is the printer
mechanism capable of 
> utilizing this extra color ( and tonal ) depth?

Concievably, the hardware's performance will always be improved by
better data. But in a practical sense it's still up to us to determine
if it's a visual improvement. Still, the printer will be getting the
same kind of data it always has, it's only in the processing of that
data in the driver that a possible benifit of hi bit comes into play.
Also, extra depth and color is not what will likely happen, but finer
distinction of the tones in gamut, the in betweens.

> From the comments below I would think not, 
> but I'm very sure that I have no idea. Nor do I know if rips like
Studio Print or Imageprint 
> have the ability to utilize 16 bit is some different way that the
generic Epson drivers do. To 
> me this would seem like a major thing to consider these days with
everything capturing in 
> 16 bit, but I never hear anyone discussing it.

How these products make use of bit depth internally seems to bring
little comment. Either something proprietory is going on there or they
are really utilizing 8. Or, as is often the case, it's difficult to
get any comments about these kinds of issues from any of them.
Frankly, drivers utilizing 8 bit like the Epson driver and QTR do such
a good job under most normal curcumstances that I'm not sure if it's a
determining issue when purchasing.
Interested people with testing time on their hands and IJC/OPM could
do some tests I suppose.
By the way, those using Cones profiles may benifit from high bit. The
conversion to print profile is yanking things around pretty good and
could be lossy. It turns out PS converts to 8 just before handing off
to the printer, so the profile conversion will occur in hi bit just
before.
Tyler

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Tyler Boley"
<tyler@t...> wrote:
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "john dean"
> <deanwork2003@y...> wrote:
> > 
> >...it was totally redundant and a time drag to ever send this file 
> > to the Epson printer as 16 bit because it would be converted to 8
> bit at printing anyway. 
> > So? How far off am I? Tyler suggests that it is not doing this at
> output rip time.
> 
> John, don't confuse the printer with the driver or RIP.

I am not all confused. You may implement the software in 16bit but
says nothing at all about the enumeration of ink patterns. You may
think you have fine distinctions in the ink patterns determined by
droplet size and placement but after dotgain has had its day etc., how
many real repeatably measurably different densities do you have.
Indeed as I have said if there is fine grain change is it even monotonic.

With just a simple thing as changing the size of a swatch down near
the black point I am seeing changes in L of about 4. 

> As posted here, IJC/OPM utilizes 16 bit input. To the same printer, we
> know the Epson driver does not and PS will convert to 8 for it on the
> fly. I'm not sure about other RIPs and drivers. StudioPrint accepts a
> 16 bit file, whether or not it takes full advantage of it I don't
> know. Also, based on what Roy said, we know QTR does not utilize 16
bits.

> This has nothing to do with the printer, but everything to do with the
> driver or RIP being used.
> 
> > 
> > I'm still confused - if you send a fine drum or digital camera file
> scan to the Epson printer ( 
> > without a rip or specialized software ) in 16 bit color, is there
> any difference visible 
> > difference between that print and the same file going to the printer
> as an 8 bit color file? 
> 
> No, since you are using the Epson driver it will be converted to 8
> anyway behind your back
> 
> > 
> > My comment to the class is that we can scan in 16 bit, now we can do
> all the PS 
> > manipulations in 16 bit, but WE can't print from it with any added
> value? Is this true or 
> > not? I would think that outputting to film would be more of a
> process that could utilize it 
> > but ink on paper? Would you even see that extra data? 
> 
> That's what is up to all of us to determine for ourselves based on
> particular methods, materials, and eyes.
> 
> > 
> > My final question is: even with this specialized rip and profiling
> application that this 
> > company claims they have, that ya'll are refering to, is the printer
> mechanism capable of 
> > utilizing this extra color ( and tonal ) depth?
> 
> Concievably, the hardware's performance will always be improved by
> better data. But in a practical sense it's still up to us to determine
> if it's a visual improvement. Still, the printer will be getting the
> same kind of data it always has, it's only in the processing of that
> data in the driver that a possible benifit of hi bit comes into play.
> Also, extra depth and color is not what will likely happen, but finer
> distinction of the tones in gamut, the in betweens.
> 
> > From the comments below I would think not, 
> > but I'm very sure that I have no idea. Nor do I know if rips like
> Studio Print or Imageprint 
> > have the ability to utilize 16 bit is some different way that the
> generic Epson drivers do. To 
> > me this would seem like a major thing to consider these days with
> everything capturing in 
> > 16 bit, but I never hear anyone discussing it.
> 
> How these products make use of bit depth internally seems to bring
> little comment. Either something proprietory is going on there or they
> are really utilizing 8. Or, as is often the case, it's difficult to
> get any comments about these kinds of issues from any of them.
> Frankly, drivers utilizing 8 bit like the Epson driver and QTR do such
> a good job under most normal curcumstances that I'm not sure if it's a
> determining issue when purchasing.
> Interested people with testing time on their hands and IJC/OPM could
> do some tests I suppose.
> By the way, those using Cones profiles may benifit from high bit. The
> conversion to print profile is yanking things around pretty good and
> could be lossy. It turns out PS converts to 8 just before handing off
> to the printer, so the profile conversion will occur in hi bit just
> before.
> Tyler

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "johnglodge"
<john.lodge@s...> wrote:
> ...
> > John, don't confuse the printer with the driver or RIP.
> 
> I am not all confused.

Sorry, I was addressing a different John...

> You may implement the software in 16bit but
> says nothing at all about the enumeration of ink patterns. You may
> think you have fine distinctions in the ink patterns determined by
> droplet size and placement but after dotgain has had its day etc., how
> many real repeatably measurably different densities do you have.
> Indeed as I have said if there is fine grain change is it even
monotonic.
> 
> With just a simple thing as changing the size of a swatch down near
> the black point I am seeing changes in L of about 4.

I don't have the knowledge to address some of the above. A list member
like Austin could, he has written printer drivers.
However, linearization, or good profiling, addresses some of your
points. Dot gain in particular.
Your comment about changing K with swatch size is interesting. I've
never seen that happen in my testing, and it sounds like something is
amiss.
Tyler
Tyler

Sorry to disturb this very interesting thread, from time to time I may ask some stupid question but it is the way to progress, so what do you call "swatch" here?

Many thanks

Michel

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Tyler Boley 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Friday, January 14, 2005 7:48 AM
  Subject: [Digital BW] Re: 16 bit and printer output -???



  --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "johnglodge"
  <john.lodge@s...> wrote:
  > ...
  > > John, don't confuse the printer with the driver or RIP.
  > 
  > I am not all confused.

  Sorry, I was addressing a different John...

  > You may implement the software in 16bit but
  > says nothing at all about the enumeration of ink patterns. You may
  > think you have fine distinctions in the ink patterns determined by
  > droplet size and placement but after dotgain has had its day etc., how
  > many real repeatably measurably different densities do you have.
  > Indeed as I have said if there is fine grain change is it even
  monotonic.
  > 
  > With just a simple thing as changing the size of a swatch down near
  > the black point I am seeing changes in L of about 4.

  I don't have the knowledge to address some of the above. A list member
  like Austin could, he has written printer drivers.
  However, linearization, or good profiling, addresses some of your
  points. Dot gain in particular.
  Your comment about changing K with swatch size is interesting. I've
  never seen that happen in my testing, and it sounds like something is
  amiss.
  Tyler
  Tyler





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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

-----Original Message-----

From: john dean [mailto:deanwork2003@...]
 Subject: [Digital BW] Re: 16 bit and printer output -???
<snip>
To me this would seem like a major thing to consider these days with
everything capturing in
16 bit, but I never hear anyone discussing it.


John, The files are 16 bit, but often the data is less. Digital cameras
typically capture in 12 bit, and desktop film scanners like the Nikon 8000
in 14 bit.  Still, 12 bits is much more resolution than 8, which I believe
was your point.

John


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thanks Tyler,

That explained it more clearly. Even if there is a difference that is measurable, it isn't 
necessarily visible to the eye. So, someone could claim there is a measurable difference 
but it might not help you in the real world. If that is the  case it has to be extremely subtle.

So, no one has convinced me yet that the work flow of working with a file size that is twice 
what is needed to output ( and store on a cd or dvd ) is worth this trouble. My contention 
is if you guys are not raving about the clear VISIBLE advantages of sending 16 bit files to a 
printer, even with specially created software, then it is clearly not worth the trouble. To me 
is seems that if it IS a significant advantage then we should all be calling Epson everyday 
and insisting that they upgrade their printer drivers to process it. They would probably 
tell us that you can't see it anyway, whether that is true or not. Of course it is alway best to
refine your captured file with as much data present as possible, whatever that turns out to 
be.

 It is certainly true that most files tagged as 16 bit are not even close to that much bit 
depth anyway, and so the advantages would be even less. That is a significant point. Also I 
thought that extra bit depth only had an effect on tonal subtlety and color content gamut, 
not resolution? Right? A higher bit size isn't going to make your files any sharper, right?

I'll let this drop for this month. Thanks for the insights.

John

> John, The files are 16 bit, but often the data is less. Digital cameras
> typically capture in 12 bit, and desktop film scanners like the Nikon 8000
> in 14 bit.  Still, 12 bits is much more resolution than 8, which I believe
> was your point.
> 
> John
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

john dean wrote:

>
> Thanks Tyler,
>
> That explained it more clearly. Even if there is a difference that is 
> measurable, it isn't
> necessarily visible to the eye. So, someone could claim there is a 
> measurable difference
> but it might not help you in the real world. If that is the  case it 
> has to be extremely subtle.
>
> So, no one has convinced me yet that the work flow of working with a 
> file size that is twice
> what is needed to output ( and store on a cd or dvd ) is worth this 
> trouble.

Why would you think any of us has signed up to convince you of anything? 
You are free to believe what you want, and do what you want. If you want 
to stay in 8 bit land, go for it.
--
Hogarth Hughes.

John said:  "...So, no one has convinced me yet that the work flow of working with a file size that is twice what is needed to output ( and store on a cd or dvd ) is worth this trouble..."
 
John  -
 
You're not confusing the need to work in 16 bit in Photoshop to preserve image quality, with the need, or not, of sending 16 bit files to the printer, are you?
 
Tom Baker




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "john dean"
<deanwork2003@y...> wrote:
...
> So, no one has convinced me yet that the work flow of working with a
file size that is twice 
> what is needed to output ( and store on a cd or dvd ) is worth this
trouble.

John, for me it's no trouble. Single channel files are still not that
big in hi bit, and storage gets cheaper and cheaper.
Rather than do a slurry of testing that may show different results
with different images hence a multitude of qualifiers to track down,
I'd rather just stay in hi bit the whole way.
Besides, the files may need further editing some day for different
output or whims.
Long ago, testing with a different RIP, I did see a difference,
sometimes. Since the RIP I use accepts hi bit in, I'll just stick with
it to make sure I'm getting the best possible for now.
It's working, and at some point it's more satisfying to make prints
than tests.
Tyler

Well said.

Especially the part about future advances in printing technology. Of COURSE I scan and 
work on everyting in high bit. and save the scans that way. Who wouldn't these days.Now 
you have just convinced me to save the Finished files that way too. When I produce a 200 
meg rgb file ( and some are much bigger) for a client then that becomes a 400 meg file on 
cd. And I save the scan and the final corrected file. But, I have a super drive so what the 
hell, I'll buy a ton of dvd's.

With your applicatons in greyscale your dealing with files 1/3 that size so it is definitely a 
no brainer. Right, there are too many things to test. That is why I was probing to see if 
someone else had done the work for us.

We can let it drop now. I'm even boring myself.

John

> John, for me it's no trouble. Single channel files are still not that
> big in hi bit, and storage gets cheaper and cheaper.
> Rather than do a slurry of testing that may show different results
> with different images hence a multitude of qualifiers to track down,
> I'd rather just stay in hi bit the whole way.
> Besides, the files may need further editing some day for different
> output or whims.
> Long ago, testing with a different RIP, I did see a difference,
> sometimes. Since the RIP I use accepts hi bit in, I'll just stick with
> it to make sure I'm getting the best possible for now.
> It's working, and at some point it's more satisfying to make prints
> than tests.
> Tyler

Hi,

If I understand correctly, the advantages of working in 16 bit mode are more
relevant during the editing of the image in PS. I can't remember where I
read it (might have been Dan Burkholder's digital negative book) but there's
an awful lot of pixel twisting and bending that will normally degrade the
image quality as you edit along. Having the files in 16 bit mode (more data
= more flexibility) helps keep the image well-preserved. But once all the
editing has been done, (with layers, always) I'm not so sure it matters so
much. I could be wrong...

José

-----Original Message-----
From: Tyler Boley [mailto:tyler@...] 
Sent: vendredi, 14. janvier 2005 17:26
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Tyler's comments Re: 16 bit and printer output



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "john dean"
<deanwork2003@y...> wrote:
...
> So, no one has convinced me yet that the work flow of working with a
file size that is twice 
> what is needed to output ( and store on a cd or dvd ) is worth this
trouble.

John, for me it's no trouble. Single channel files are still not that
big in hi bit, and storage gets cheaper and cheaper.
Rather than do a slurry of testing that may show different results
with different images hence a multitude of qualifiers to track down,
I'd rather just stay in hi bit the whole way.
Besides, the files may need further editing some day for different
output or whims.
Long ago, testing with a different RIP, I did see a difference,
sometimes. Since the RIP I use accepts hi bit in, I'll just stick with
it to make sure I'm getting the best possible for now.
It's working, and at some point it's more satisfying to make prints
than tests.
Tyler






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In a message dated 1/14/05 10:28:11 AM, tyler@... writes:


> Long ago, testing with a different RIP, I did see a difference,
> sometimes. Since the RIP I use accepts hi bit in, I'll just stick with
> it to make sure I'm getting the best possible for now.
> It's working, and at some point it's more satisfying to make prints
> than tests.
> 

Guys-

I've been following this thread and would like to mention something that 
dovetails with Tyler's comments.

Recently I've been testing a number of RIPs (ColorBurst, ImagePrint, Bowhause 
and Lyson's Daylight Darkroom based on Bowhaus, and QRT) on a 7600 and 4000, 
both with UC inks. My initial interest was to compare the supplied profiles. 
The idea was to establish a baseline: what kind of print do these applications 
produce out of the box (I've built custom profiles for the ColorBurst RIP, 
using the i1 spectrophotometer and MonacoProof and compared those to the "canned" 
profiles, as well).

I ran a series of test prints with a healthy 8-bit grayscale file, another 
with a good 16-bit grayscale file. Both had 21-step tonal ramps attached, which 
was very helpful.

As you might expect, each RIP produced distinctively different prints. They 
all did a good job; each is an improvement over the OEM print driver. However, 
I've noticed a difference in the 16-bit test prints made with IJP/OPM (made on 
the 4000). It seems to do a better job with local contrast. Similar or very 
close tonalities separate better, giving the print an improved sense of overall 
sharpness and depth. It is definitely noticeable to the eye.

I have no idea if this is directly attributable to IJP/OPM's internal 16-bit 
architecture, and I have no way to objectively test this, but it makes 
intuitive sense to me. Better data in, better data out provided each link in the 
imaging chain does it's job properly and is managed properly. There could be many 
other factors, of course. It could be that the IJP/OPM's canned profile 
happens to match-up well, with the printer, ink and paper combination I used. Maybe 
the planets were in alignment. However, I'd also say that the IJP/OPM print is 
at least as good as those made with my custom profile. Not bad, especially 
considering the difference in cost and the time one has to invest in the 
learning curve.



Bill Kennedy
Associate Professor of Photocommunications
St. Edward's University
512/448-8680


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Now that this has gone round and round several times.

1. 8 bit integer (which is what we are talking about) is quite coarse
in accuracy down at low values. 16 bit is a lot better and in the
print driver or RIP a profile is applied so that the same conditions
apply as in an image file being opened in PS or any other color
managed application. With 8 bit: funnies accumulate, with 16 bit:
there is more latitude.

2. When the printer is stripped back (with Epson piezo printers) to
the basics the ink onto paper process is not the function of a
continuous variable. In the combination of halftoning, dotgain, the
size of the ink drops that can be emitted: and even the total internal
reflection (of light) in the paper surface (particularly if it is
gloss) lead to a complex situation that may not be monotonic across
the spce of enumerated patterns and certainly is not a continuous
variable.

It is goodness for the software to be implemented in 16 bit: (all the
way) for both profiles and for the image files. This leaves only the
irregularity of the actual ink deposition process to have oddities.

There are most likely less than 256 effective levels in density scale
but it will take 16 bit software to fully exploit them and it will
take subtle profiling software to deal with the lack of monotonicity.

Taking the information that because there is likely less than 256
levels in the density and using it to suggest that only 8 bit software
is needed is the same argument that we are moving away from with the
image processing software. If there are multiple steps with rounding
errors, the resultant output will not be 8 significant bits with will
be more like 6 or 5. (The legendary rule of not going in and out of
Lab space in PS is of the same ilk, with 8 bit numbers the errors
build too fast).

The same situation exists with LCD displays. IF you look at the
information on the details of the excellent Eizo displays they have
(at least those meant for quality work) a 10bit internal LUT. That is
there are 256 entries in the LUT, but the table entries are 10bits
wide as is the DAC in the display. This is used for the same reasons
as for printers etc; the basic LCD response is sufficiently irregular
to need information to express the voltages needed. Even though only 
     
8bit changes in brightness are being expressed.

...have a good day all!  

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, José Miguel
Ferreira <jmf@j...> wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> If I understand correctly, the advantages of working in 16 bit mode
are more
> relevant during the editing of the image in PS. I can't remember where I
> read it (might have been Dan Burkholder's digital negative book) but
there's
> an awful lot of pixel twisting and bending that will normally
degrade the
> image quality as you edit along. Having the files in 16 bit mode
(more data
> = more flexibility) helps keep the image well-preserved. But once
all the
> editing has been done, (with layers, always) I'm not so sure it
matters so
> much. I could be wrong...
> 
> José
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tyler Boley [mailto:tyler@t...] 
> Sent: vendredi, 14. janvier 2005 17:26
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Digital BW] Tyler's comments Re: 16 bit and printer output
> 
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "john dean"
> <deanwork2003@y...> wrote:
> ...
> > So, no one has convinced me yet that the work flow of working with a
> file size that is twice 
> > what is needed to output ( and store on a cd or dvd ) is worth this
> trouble.
> 
> John, for me it's no trouble. Single channel files are still not that
> big in hi bit, and storage gets cheaper and cheaper.
> Rather than do a slurry of testing that may show different results
> with different images hence a multitude of qualifiers to track down,
> I'd rather just stay in hi bit the whole way.
> Besides, the files may need further editing some day for different
> output or whims.
> Long ago, testing with a different RIP, I did see a difference,
> sometimes. Since the RIP I use accepts hi bit in, I'll just stick with
> it to make sure I'm getting the best possible for now.
> It's working, and at some point it's more satisfying to make prints
> than tests.
> Tyler
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other
resources as
> they are often being updated.
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting
this same
> page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages
to keep
> them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
> Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
> membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
> printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed
from
> the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group
Owner and
> Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files
section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> 
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND
> "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE
LIABLE TO YOU
> FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR
EXEMPLARY
> DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS,
> GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  "OWNER" AND
> "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED
OF THE
> POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE
INABILITY
> TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED
ACCESS TO OR
> ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR
CONDUCT OF ANY

> THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER
> MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
>  
> Yahoo! Groups Links

Hi Bill,

Nice to see someone is trying real images.

You mention using both 8 bit and 16 bit files -- are they the same basic
data?  I.e. was all the image creation done in 16 bit and then just
at the end convert one copy to 8 bit in Photoshop?
Printing both of these with the same driver and same settings ought 
to tell you if the 16 bit version makes any visible difference.

Roy

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, BKPhoto@a... wrote:
> 
> In a message dated 1/14/05 10:28:11 AM, tyler@t... writes:
> 
> 
> > Long ago, testing with a different RIP, I did see a difference,
> > sometimes. Since the RIP I use accepts hi bit in, I'll just stick with
> > it to make sure I'm getting the best possible for now.
> > It's working, and at some point it's more satisfying to make prints
> > than tests.
> > 
> 
> Guys-
> 
> I've been following this thread and would like to mention something that 
> dovetails with Tyler's comments.
> 
> Recently I've been testing a number of RIPs (ColorBurst, ImagePrint, Bowhause 
> and Lyson's Daylight Darkroom based on Bowhaus, and QRT) on a 7600 and 4000, 
> both with UC inks. My initial interest was to compare the supplied profiles. 
> The idea was to establish a baseline: what kind of print do these applications 
> produce out of the box (I've built custom profiles for the ColorBurst RIP, 
> using the i1 spectrophotometer and MonacoProof and compared those to the 
"canned" 
> profiles, as well).
> 
> I ran a series of test prints with a healthy 8-bit grayscale file, another 
> with a good 16-bit grayscale file. Both had 21-step tonal ramps attached, which 
> was very helpful.
> 
> As you might expect, each RIP produced distinctively different prints. They 
> all did a good job; each is an improvement over the OEM print driver. However, 
> I've noticed a difference in the 16-bit test prints made with IJP/OPM (made on 
> the 4000). It seems to do a better job with local contrast. Similar or very 
> close tonalities separate better, giving the print an improved sense of overall 
> sharpness and depth. It is definitely noticeable to the eye.
> 
> I have no idea if this is directly attributable to IJP/OPM's internal 16-bit 
> architecture, and I have no way to objectively test this, but it makes 
> intuitive sense to me. Better data in, better data out provided each link in the 
> imaging chain does it's job properly and is managed properly. There could be many 
> other factors, of course. It could be that the IJP/OPM's canned profile 
> happens to match-up well, with the printer, ink and paper combination I used. 
Maybe 

> the planets were in alignment. However, I'd also say that the IJP/OPM print is 
> at least as good as those made with my custom profile. Not bad, especially 
> considering the difference in cost and the time one has to invest in the 
> learning curve.
> 
> 
> 
> Bill Kennedy
> Associate Professor of Photocommunications
> St. Edward's University
> 512/448-8680
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Roy-

That's an excellent point. No, the two image files were not the same. The 
8-bit file was provided by another photographer on this list. The 16-bit was 
mine. I've been concentrating on the 8-bit file and only pulled a few from the 
16-bit out of curiosity. That's when I discover the visual difference I mentioned 
in my earlier email.

I'm going to follow-up on your suggestion and will let you know what I see.

Incidentally, I'd like to personally thank you for QR. and your continued 
support through this list. In a field dominated by expensive software, QTR is a 
remarkable exception and much appreciated.



Bill Kennedy
Associate Professor of Photocommunications
St. Edward's University
512/448-8680


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thanks John and Bill for the excellent posts. By the way, it's very
difficult to create a real 16 bit grad test file in PS. Using the grad
tool, with dither, in 16 bit provided only 8189 unique levels, without
dither it was half that. Far fewer the the 65535 possible in a true
single chammel hi bit file. Of course PS is not true 16 bit, but
should provide much more.
There may be good source files out there somewhere for testing. But
I've gotten far more levels from hi bit scans of images, of course
they are much more complex then a grad.
How to determine unique levels? A cool little app (Mac, OS9 only) on
Bruce Linbloom's amazing site-
http://www.brucelindbloom.com/
Tyler

Tyler-

Lindbloom's site is amazing.

I use the tonal ramp to check for color shift and colorcast. I'm flying with 
my eyes open.



Bill Kennedy
Associate Professor of Photocommunications
St. Edward's University
512/448-8680


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

<http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/printers/4800-1st.shtml>

seems to me profoundly ambivalent about the new Epson printers, 
especially in re the 4800, as opposed to the 2400. Includes some 
interesting details about developments expected in the Imageprint RIP.
--
Sam

What are the ambivalent items because I cnnot see any.

Richard

> -----Original Message-----
> From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Sam
> McCandless
> Sent: Friday, July 01, 2005 6:15 PM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Digital BW] more 4800 first impressions
> 
> <http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/printers/4800-1st.shtml>
> 
> seems to me profoundly ambivalent about the new Epson printers,
> especially in re the 4800, as opposed to the 2400. Includes some
> interesting details about developments expected in the Imageprint RIP.
> --
> Sam
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
> they are often being updated.
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
> page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
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> them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
> Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
> membership without notice.
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> printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from
> the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner
> and Moderators. See Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines in the Files
> section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> 
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE OWNER AND
> MODERATORS OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO
> YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR
> EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF
> PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE
> OWNER AND MODERATORS OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN
> ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE
> OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii)
> UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii)
> STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE
> PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ---
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---
[This E-mail has been scanned for viruses but it is your responsibility 
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The ambivilence is over the change from having the Matte and Photo Black 
cartss in at the same time to having to switch them, at a healthy cost 
in Ink, thus losing one of the biggest advantages of the 4000.

-Adam



Richard wrote:

> What are the ambivalent items because I cnnot see any.
>
> Richard
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> > [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Sam
> > McCandless
> > Sent: Friday, July 01, 2005 6:15 PM
> > To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [Digital BW] more 4800 first impressions
> >
> > <http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/printers/4800-1st.shtml>
> >
> > seems to me profoundly ambivalent about the new Epson printers,
> > especially in re the 4800, as opposed to the 2400. Includes some
> > interesting details about developments expected in the Imageprint RIP.
> > --
> > Sam
> >
> >
> >
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
> resources as
> > they are often being updated.
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >
> > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
> > unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting 
> this same
> > page.
> >
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages 
> to keep
> > them short.
> > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
> > Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
> > membership without notice.
> > - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
> > printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed 
> from
> > the membership.
> > - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
> > guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner
> > and Moderators. See Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines in the Files
> > section:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> >
> > BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> > YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE OWNER AND
> > MODERATORS OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO
> > YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR
> > EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF
> > PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE
> > OWNER AND MODERATORS OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN
> > ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE
> > OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii)
> > UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; 
> (iii)
> > STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> > YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE
> > PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ---
> > [This E-mail has been scanned for viruses but it is your responsibility
> > to maintain up to date anti virus software on the device that you are
> > currently using to read this email. ]
> >
>
>
>
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> [This E-mail has been scanned for viruses but it is your responsibility
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>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
> resources as they are often being updated.
>
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> to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting 
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>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
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> LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, 
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> THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF 
> YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD 
> PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER 
> MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Several weeks ago I attended a presentation by Epson on the 4800 among other things.  I 
specifically asked an Epson field engineer about the allegations that it was so expensive to 
switch inks.  He said it shouldn't take more than 10-15ml of ink to switch on the 4800 
because it involved only the black and the line was relatively short.

I tend to believe that something is amiss.  Surely Epson is capable of giving an accurate 
answer about how much ink is lost in the switch.  Epson should respond to this subject.

Jim

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Adam Maas <mykroft@m...> 
wrote:
> The ambivilence is over the change from having the Matte and Photo Black 
> cartss in at the same time to having to switch them, at a healthy cost 
> in Ink, thus losing one of the biggest advantages of the 4000.
> 
> -Adam
> 
> 
> 
> Richard wrote:
> 
> > What are the ambivalent items because I cnnot see any.
> >
> > Richard
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> > > [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Sam
> > > McCandless
> > > Sent: Friday, July 01, 2005 6:15 PM
> > > To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> > > Subject: [Digital BW] more 4800 first impressions
> > >
> > > <http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/printers/4800-1st.shtml>
> > >
> > > seems to me profoundly ambivalent about the new Epson printers,
> > > especially in re the 4800, as opposed to the 2400. Includes some
> > > interesting details about developments expected in the Imageprint RIP.
> > > --
> > > Sam
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
> > resources as
> > > they are often being updated.
> > >
> > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> > >
> > > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
> > > unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting 
> > this same
> > > page.
> > >
> > > Please follow these basic guidelines:
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> > to keep
> > > them short.
> > > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
> > > Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
> > > membership without notice.
> > > - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
> > > printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed 
> > from
> > > the membership.
> > > - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
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> > > section:
> > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> > >
> > > BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> > > YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE OWNER AND
> > > MODERATORS OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO
> > > YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR
> > > EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF
> > > PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE
> > > OWNER AND MODERATORS OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN
> > > ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE
> > > OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii)
> > > UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; 
> > (iii)
> > > STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> > > YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE
> > > PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> > >
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> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
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> > [This E-mail has been scanned for viruses but it is your responsibility
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> >
> >
> >
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
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> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >
> > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish 
> > to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting 
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> >
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to 
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> > - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital 
> > B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be 
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> > - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and 
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> > Owner and Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the 
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> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> >
> > BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE 
> > PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" 
> > AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE 
> > LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, 
> > CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, 
> > DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE 
> > LOSSES (EVEN IF THE "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT 
> > YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), 
> > RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, 
> > THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF 
> > YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD 
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> > MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >

From experience it uses 89ml of ink to switch blacks.  The engineer you
spoke to has got it seriously wrong.

> From: jamesdsteele2001 <photographybysteele@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 19:19:44 -0000
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] more 4800 first impressions
> 
> Several weeks ago I attended a presentation by Epson on the 4800 among other
> things.  I 
> specifically asked an Epson field engineer about the allegations that it was
> so expensive to 
> switch inks.  He said it shouldn't take more than 10-15ml of ink to switch on
> the 4800 
> because it involved only the black and the line was relatively short.
> 
> I tend to believe that something is amiss.  Surely Epson is capable of giving
> an accurate 
> answer about how much ink is lost in the switch.  Epson should respond to this
> subject.
> 
> Jim

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale 
<stevekale@b...> wrote:
> From experience it uses 89ml of ink to switch blacks.  The engineer 
you
> spoke to has got it seriously wrong.
> 


Chris from inkjetart.com got a similar value, I think his was slightly 
higher than 89ml. Whatever it was, he calculated about $40 in waste for 
each switch.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Adam
> Maas
> Sent: Friday, July 01, 2005 7:47 PM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] more 4800 first impressions
> 
> The ambivilence is over the change from having the Matte and Photo Black
> cartss in at the same time to having to switch them, at a healthy cost
> in Ink, thus losing one of the biggest advantages of the 4000.

I cannot see how that makes the review ambivalent

Richard


---
[This E-mail has been scanned for viruses but it is your responsibility 
to maintain up to date anti virus software on the device that you are
currently using to read this email. ]

this is ridiculous. If there is some routine you can run through the
front panel that will allow it to accept the new black cart, you can
then simply print a bunch of solid K until the new has completely
replaced the old in the line.
We do this all the time with x600 printers using the "african" method.
Epson's routines are strictly for the naive, to sell more ink.
Tyler


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "dfaprinting"
<dfaprinting@y...> wrote:

> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale 
> <stevekale@b...> wrote:
> > From experience it uses 89ml of ink to switch blacks.  The engineer 
> you
> > spoke to has got it seriously wrong.
> > 
> 
> 
> Chris from inkjetart.com got a similar value, I think his was slightly 
> higher than 89ml. Whatever it was, he calculated about $40 in waste for 
> each switch.

Tyler

Arguably there is no reason why you couldn't turn the printer off, swap the
cartridge, delete it from Printer Setup (Mac), turn it on, then re-add it to
Printer Setup and do as you say.  I guess I naively thought that would use
the same amount of ink.  How much do you think is in the line from the
cartridge to the head etc?

Steve

> From: Tyler Boley <tyler@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 21:06:16 -0000
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: [Digital BW] K ink cahnge was more 4800 first impressions
> 
> this is ridiculous. If there is some routine you can run through the
> front panel that will allow it to accept the new black cart, you can
> then simply print a bunch of solid K until the new has completely
> replaced the old in the line.
> We do this all the time with x600 printers using the "african" method.
> Epson's routines are strictly for the naive, to sell more ink.
> Tyler

But how do you calculate the additional wear on the head from running the ink through it?  Is not an issue?
 
Tom Baker


Tyler Boley <tyler@tylerboley.com> wrote:
this is ridiculous. If there is some routine you can run through the
front panel that will allow it to accept the new black cart, you can
then simply print a bunch of solid K until the new has completely
replaced the old in the line.
We do this all the time with x600 printers using the "african" method.
Epson's routines are strictly for the naive, to sell more ink.
Tyler


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "dfaprinting"
wrote:
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale 
> wrote:
> > From experience it uses 89ml of ink to switch blacks. The engineer 
> you
> > spoke to has got it seriously wrong.
> > 
> 
> 
> Chris from inkjetart.com got a similar value, I think his was slightly 
> higher than 89ml. Whatever it was, he calculated about $40 in waste for 
> each switch.




Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as they are often being updated.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page.

Please follow these basic guidelines:
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership without notice.
- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the membership.
- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and Moderators. See “Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines” in the Files section:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/

BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE “OWNER” AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE “OWNER” AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.

Yahoo! Groups Links








[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I suppose, but it's generally around a 20x30 inch print, depending on
dot size settings etc..
So how much head life am I losing with one 20x30 print, and how does
that trade off against $40 per K ink change-over?
Your guess is as good as mine, but I'll bet the $40 is higher.
Tyler

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Tom Baker
<tbaker1328@s...> wrote:
> But how do you calculate the additional wear on the head from
running the ink through it?  Is not an issue?
>  
> Tom Baker
> 
> 
> Tyler Boley <tyler@t...> wrote:
> this is ridiculous. If there is some routine you can run through the
> front panel that will allow it to accept the new black cart, you can
> then simply print a bunch of solid K until the new has completely
> replaced the old in the line.
> We do this all the time with x600 printers using the "african" method.
> Epson's routines are strictly for the naive, to sell more ink.
> Tyler
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "dfaprinting"
> wrote:
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale 
> > wrote:
> > > From experience it uses 89ml of ink to switch blacks. The engineer 
> > you
> > > spoke to has got it seriously wrong.
> > > 
> > 
> > 
> > Chris from inkjetart.com got a similar value, I think his was
slightly 
> > higher than 89ml. Whatever it was, he calculated about $40 in
waste for 
> > each switch.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other
resources as they are often being updated.
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish
to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting
this same page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages
to keep them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from
the membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital
B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be
removed from the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group
Owner and Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the
Files section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> 
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE
PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER"
AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE
LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL,
CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO,
DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE
LOSSES (EVEN IF THE "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES),
RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW,
THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF
YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD
PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER
MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.

> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Make that £40...  :-(

> From: Tyler Boley <tyler@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 22:29:01 -0000
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] K ink cahnge was more 4800 first impressions
> 
> I suppose, but it's generally around a 20x30 inch print, depending on
> dot size settings etc..
> So how much head life am I losing with one 20x30 print, and how does
> that trade off against $40 per K ink change-over?
> Your guess is as good as mine, but I'll bet the $40 is higher.
> Tyler

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale
<stevekale@b...> wrote:
> Tyler
> 
> Arguably there is no reason why you couldn't turn the printer off,
swap the
> cartridge, delete it from Printer Setup (Mac), turn it on, then
re-add it to
> Printer Setup and do as you say.  I guess I naively thought that
would use
> the same amount of ink.  How much do you think is in the line from the
> cartridge to the head etc?
> 
> Steve

Well, I don't have a 4800 so am not sure. But based on my old 3000s it
can't be much, and surely far less than our 9600. We do the same when
changing over the 7600.
Sorry if the naive seemed aggressive, I would just assume that clever
users would hack ways around this unnecessary expense quickly.
Tyler

Ah, well, sorry. No idea what that is in USD. Maybe it's just fine then...
Tyler

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale
<stevekale@b...> wrote:

> Make that £40...  :-(
> 
> 
> > From: Tyler Boley <tyler@t...>
> > Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 22:29:01 -0000
> > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] K ink cahnge was more 4800 first impressions
> > 
> > I suppose, but it's generally around a 20x30 inch print, depending on
> > dot size settings etc..
> > So how much head life am I losing with one 20x30 print, and how does
> > that trade off against $40 per K ink change-over?
> > Your guess is as good as mine, but I'll bet the $40 is higher.
> > Tyler

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1013&message=14068956

$71 and not fine... I will at least try the procedure next swap.  It's kind
of interesting:  with the Epson changeover you know it's likely good (ie a
proper change) but conservative.  With the other method one might end up
being conservative in the black ink run out.  Where do you end up net net?
Who knows.  But you are likely right.  Out of interest, why is it called the
African method?

> From: Tyler Boley <tyler@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 22:37:00 -0000
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] K ink cahnge was more 4800 first impressions
> 
> Ah, well, sorry. No idea what that is in USD. Maybe it's just fine then...
> Tyler

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale
<stevekale@b...> wrote:
> ...why is it called the
> African method?

no idea, it's been around a while though, longer than I've used it. If
you do some searches on various Epson lists I'm sure you'll find more
info.
Tyler

>> ...why is it called the
>> African method?
>
>no idea, it's been around a while though, longer than I've
used it. If
>you do some searches on various Epson lists I'm sure you'll
find more
>info.
>Tyler

It was first posted by some guy from South Africa.

Regards, Walt

http://www.kauaiphotos.biz

On Jul 1, 2005, at 4:08 PM, Tyler Boley wrote:

> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale
>  <stevekale@b...> wrote:
>  > ...why is it called the
>  > African method?
>
>  no idea, it's been around a while though, longer than I've used it. If
>  you do some searches on various Epson lists I'm sure you'll find more
>  info.
>  Tyler

For next to no backstory, and the method spelled out succinctly (but 
thoroughly), go to Digital Outback Photo's Epson 9600 Diary by Alain 
Briot, go here and scroll down about 3/4 of the page to the 4/25/2004 
entry:

http://www.outbackphoto.com/printinginsights/pi013/Epson9600.html

To join another YahooGroup and access the method in it's original 
incarnation as it resides as a pdf found in the "files" section. Go 
here:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EpsonWideFormat/

Also, you could search the archives at EpsonWideFormat for the "African 
Method" and find more backstory than you may care to read.

Mark

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

It's ambivalent because it argues that there's a good reason to stick 
with the 4000 if you're willing to use a RIP and/or don't print much 
colour. It's certainly changed my desire to own a 4800. Thus the review 
goes from 'must buy' to 'recomended with reservations'. And for this 
group's use, given the amount of RIP users, I'd have to argue the review 
suggests we not buy the 4800 if we intend to swicth between matte and 
glossy paper.

-Adam



Richard wrote:

>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> > [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Adam
> > Maas
> > Sent: Friday, July 01, 2005 7:47 PM
> > To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] more 4800 first impressions
> >
> > The ambivilence is over the change from having the Matte and Photo Black
> > cartss in at the same time to having to switch them, at a healthy cost
> > in Ink, thus losing one of the biggest advantages of the 4000.
>
> I cannot see how that makes the review ambivalent
>
> Richard
>
>
> ---
> [This E-mail has been scanned for viruses but it is your responsibility
> to maintain up to date anti virus software on the device that you are
> currently using to read this email. ]
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
> resources as they are often being updated.
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish 
> to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting 
> this same page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to 
> keep them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or 
> flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from 
> the membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital 
> B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be 
> removed from the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and 
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group 
> Owner and Moderators. See \ufffdGroup Topic, Rules and Guidelines\ufffd in the 
> Files section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
>
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE 
> PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE \ufffdOWNER\ufffd 
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I didn't say it was "a miss," I said something was "amiss" in that there is a difference 
between the information provided to me by the Epson field engineer and the experiences 
of folks on this site.  I'm not calling into question the experiences of folks on this site.

I've had a 4000 for over a year and am extremely happy with it.  I was hoping that the 
7800 would simply be a 24" version of the 4000.  It seems to me that if all Epson wanted 
to do was solve the quality and metamerism issues with black and white, they should have 
teamed with Roy Harrington with QTR and kept the 7800/9800 printers to be wider 
versions of the 4000.  OTOH, Roy's doing such great stuff with QTR on his own, I'd hate to 
see Epson get involved and screw it up.

99% of what I do is black and white and I can probably live with matt only rather than 
switch, but I was hoping for something better as an upgrade to the 7600 other that just 
better black and white printing.  The black and white prints that I saw at the demo would 
have ended up in my waste basket.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Graham" <gebilwil@n...> 
wrote:
> Yes and no.  The Epson expert that I talked to had heard little from Espon at the time 
the 
> first 4800 shipped, and he wasn't getting his demo model until a couple of weeks later.
> 
> Hence, the person you heard was probably wrong for reasons related to the above.  He 
> said "shouldn't" based on what he had heard, not "doesn't" based on what he knew.
> 
> It only drains the black ink, but it charges all the inks on that side, using about 94 ml of 
> ink.
> 
> Amiss?  get a grip.  The printer has the added feature of a LLBlack in exchange for dual 
> "black blacks".  That is not amiss, it is a choice.  You can still buy a 4000, and 
depending 
> on your business model that may be the best choice. And recall that the "Man for all 
> Seasons" was beheaded, so "you" (Epson or whomever") can't win that way either.
> 
> Scott
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "jamesdsteele2001" 
> <photographybysteele@p...> wrote:
> > Several weeks ago I attended a presentation by Epson on the 4800 among other 
things.  
> I 
> > specifically asked an Epson field engineer about the allegations that it was so 
expensive 
> to 
> > switch inks.  He said it shouldn't take more than 10-15ml of ink to switch on the 
4800 
> > because it involved only the black and the line was relatively short.
> > 
> > I tend to believe that something is amiss.  Surely Epson is capable of giving an 
accurate 
> > answer about how much ink is lost in the switch.  Epson should respond to this 
subject.
> > 
> > Jim

It was pretty easy to fool older printers but not new ones. If anyone
figures out how to fool the new R1800 please let me know. The trick
that works on the 2200 sure doesn't work with this one. It will waste
your ink when you turn it back on. The only thing that might work is
do a page feed, unplug, refill your cart in a few seconds, plug the
SAME cart right back. I'm not even sure that this will work.

The only way to save ink with this beast is replace all carts at one
time instead of just the one that is running low.

--nick

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Tyler Boley"
<tyler@t...> wrote:

> ... I would just assume that clever users would hack ways around this 
> unnecessary expense quickly.
> Tyler

Or you simply buy two, one for matte printing and one for glossy. What's the 
problem? ;)

Bob Frost.

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "Adam Maas" <mykroft@...>


> It's ambivalent because it argues that there's a good reason to stick
> with the 4000 if you're willing to use a RIP and/or don't print much
> colour. It's certainly changed my desire to own a 4800. Thus the review
> goes from 'must buy' to 'recomended with reservations'. And for this
> group's use, given the amount of RIP users, I'd have to argue the review
> suggests we not buy the 4800 if we intend to swicth between matte and
> glossy paper.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Nick H. Nugent"
<nghin@p...> wrote:
> It was pretty easy to fool older printers but not new ones. If anyone
> figures out how to fool the new R1800 please let me know. The trick
> that works on the 2200 sure doesn't work with this one...

These sorts of tricks have always been more difficult with the desktop
models. The larger models have front panels with "hidden" service
menus that may allow some cheating.
Don't know anything about the 1800, but for the 4800, someone needs to
get their hands on a service manual and see what's up.
Tyler

Here's a postscript to the review linked in the quote below (only the 
link in my previous post is live):

>When I first published my Epson 4800 review a couple of days ago I 
>criticized Epson for the continuing poor quality of their Mac 
>printer driver. It has subsequently been brought to my attention 
>that the fault for this lies more heavily with Apple than with 
>Epson, so I removed that section from the review as being 
>counterproductive.
>
>I also have revisited the improvement in Dmax on Matte papers. My 
>initial comment was that it is not as noticeable as as with Glossy 
>papers, where the improvement is quite striking. On further 
>examination I must admit that I was too conservative in my initial 
>assessment. Blacks on matte paper are noticeably improved as well.
>
>The bottom line is that with the new K3 Epson printers one gets more 
>saturated colours, better Dmax, reduced bronzing and reduced 
>metamerism. All of these are good things. But with the 4800 these 
>come with a price, the lack of ability to change between glossy and 
>matte papers without a serious hit in lost ink. What Epson giveth, 
>Epson taketh away. But it is the best photographic printer - ever. I 
>wanted perfection - damnit.

That's from Michael Reichmann, the proprietor of Luminous Landscape.

With any luck, I guess the next updates/upgrades of our favorite 
RIP's will provide us with both better drivers and the black-only 
(BO) mode some of us very much want as an option?

Is the feasibility of the black-only (BO) mode enough in doubt to 
justify postponing the purchase of a 2400? If I had a 2100/2200, or 
maybe even an 1800, I think I'd be content to wait and see. But I 
don't, and I'm itchy.
--
Sam


><http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/printers/4800-1st.shtml>
>
>seems to me profoundly ambivalent about the new Epson printers,
>especially in re the 4800, as opposed to the 2400. Includes some
>interesting details about developments expected in the Imageprint RIP.
>--
>Sam

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

BTW the Epson driver still appears weak on matte paper.  Until QTR can drive
the 4800 I can't do specific tests but I found that dMax on Permajet Alpha
was weak at around L* 19.8.  Paul Roark can get much better results with IJC
(L* 15.9), more consistent with what I used to get with the 2100 and QTR.
HPR caps out at L* 17.8.  Epson still does not provide a mechanism for
increasing the ink limit.  This weak black ink load is such a disappointment
as one would expect it to be easily addresses.  Even their own Ultrasmooth
caps at L* 17.2.  A new driver was released Friday, together with new
firmware. But of course there are no release notes as to what has been
changed....

> From: Sam McCandless <samcc@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 08:46:53 -0700
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] more 4800 first impressions
> 
> Here's a postscript to the review linked in the quote below (only the
> link in my previous post is live):
> 
>> When I first published my Epson 4800 review a couple of days ago I
>> criticized Epson for the continuing poor quality of their Mac
>> printer driver. It has subsequently been brought to my attention
>> that the fault for this lies more heavily with Apple than with
>> Epson, so I removed that section from the review as being
>> counterproductive.
>> 
>> I also have revisited the improvement in Dmax on Matte papers. My
>> initial comment was that it is not as noticeable as as with Glossy
>> papers, where the improvement is quite striking. On further
>> examination I must admit that I was too conservative in my initial
>> assessment. Blacks on matte paper are noticeably improved as well.
>> 
>> The bottom line is that with the new K3 Epson printers one gets more
>> saturated colours, better Dmax, reduced bronzing and reduced
>> metamerism. All of these are good things. But with the 4800 these
>> come with a price, the lack of ability to change between glossy and
>> matte papers without a serious hit in lost ink. What Epson giveth,
>> Epson taketh away. But it is the best photographic printer - ever. I
>> wanted perfection - damnit.
> 
> That's from Michael Reichmann, the proprietor of Luminous Landscape.
> 
> With any luck, I guess the next updates/upgrades of our favorite
> RIP's will provide us with both better drivers and the black-only
> (BO) mode some of us very much want as an option?
> 
> Is the feasibility of the black-only (BO) mode enough in doubt to
> justify postponing the purchase of a 2400? If I had a 2100/2200, or
> maybe even an 1800, I think I'd be content to wait and see. But I
> don't, and I'm itchy.
> --
> Sam

Hello Sam,

Thanks for the update.

>With any luck, I guess the next updates/upgrades of our favorite 
>RIP's will provide us with both better drivers and the black-only 
>(BO) mode some of us very much want as an option?
> 
>Is the feasibility of the black-only (BO) mode enough in doubt to 
>justify postponing the purchase of a 2400? 

Hard to say.  I personally am not very optimistic.  We may end up
having to create our own BO curve for a RIP, or using a 2BO (2 blacks
only) approach that has yet to be perfected but shows promise.

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

MIS has posted instructions for accessing the service menu on the  
4000 and other UC printers:
http://www.inksupply.com/instructions/ff_install.cfm

Carl

On Jul 2, 2005, at 1:14 PM, Tyler Boley wrote:

> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Nick H. Nugent"
> <nghin@p...> wrote:
>
>> It was pretty easy to fool older printers but not new ones. If anyone
>> figures out how to fool the new R1800 please let me know. The trick
>> that works on the 2200 sure doesn't work with this one...
>>
>
> These sorts of tricks have always been more difficult with the desktop
> models. The larger models have front panels with "hidden" service
> menus that may allow some cheating.
> Don't know anything about the 1800, but for the 4800, someone needs to
> get their hands on a service manual and see what's up.
> Tyler



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]