Digital BW, The Print

Whenever I'm asked I always say better than colour and not as good as
selenium toned silver.

Julian
----- Original Message -----
From: "frankg_photo" <frank@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2001 2:24 PM
Subject: [Digital BW] print sales - longevity claims?


> when you sell your "carbon pigment" prints (MIS or Piez), what claims
> can you safely make regarding the archival issue.
>
> How long can you safely claim the print's integrity under 'normal"
> hanging conditions in a home environment (which I'd say is a fair mix
> of ambient(uv) & artificial (mostly tungsten) light.
>
> Dark storage, pollutant free, humidity controlled environments are,
> of course, a little different.
>
> I realise this would be specific depending on which paper has been
> used; but I'm just looking for some guidance- or a ballpark range.
>
> thanks
> frank
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
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frankg_photo wrote:
> 
> when you sell your "carbon pigment" prints (MIS or Piez), what claims
> can you safely make regarding the archival issue.
> 
> How long can you safely claim the print's integrity under 'normal"
> hanging conditions in a home environment (which I'd say is a fair mix
> of ambient(uv) & artificial (mostly tungsten) light.
> 
> Dark storage, pollutant free, humidity controlled environments are,
> of course, a little different.
> 
> I realise this would be specific depending on which paper has been
> used; but I'm just looking for some guidance- or a ballpark range.
> 
> thanks
> frank


I was thinking of telling clients is that their print life can be quite
prolonged by having them frame the print under UV plexi. From the
reports that I have heard UV is the main thing that causes these prints
to shift.

-Jeff

I'm uneasy with Julian's answer, partly because I don't think we 
should say anything on our own authority because I don't think we 
know. I think we should point people to credible independent testers 
such as RIT and Wilhelm. If we do, won't they find color prints with 
longer lifespans than BW? My guess is that's only because some ink 
manufacturers have been investing in the testing longer than others 
or have been testing color but not quadtones. I think it would take a 
fairly long and elaborate answer to include such interpretive notes, 
and an even longer and more elaborate one to say anything very 
encouraging about ink-and-paper combinations not tested by any third 
party. That would be good to do, I think, and might result in 
something useful as a handout or enclosure, but I'm afraid it's a 
major project.

Sam

>Whenever I'm asked I always say better than colour and not as good as
>selenium toned silver.
>
>Julian
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "frankg_photo" <frank@...>
>To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
>Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2001 2:24 PM
>Subject: [Digital BW] print sales - longevity claims?
>
>
> > when you sell your "carbon pigment" prints (MIS or Piez), what claims
> > can you safely make regarding the archival issue.
> >
> > How long can you safely claim the print's integrity under 'normal"
> > hanging conditions in a home environment (which I'd say is a fair mix
> > of ambient(uv) & artificial (mostly tungsten) light.
> >
> > Dark storage, pollutant free, humidity controlled environments are,
> > of course, a little different.
> >
> > I realise this would be specific depending on which paper has been
> > used; but I'm just looking for some guidance- or a ballpark range.
> >
> > thanks
> > frank

I'm not happy with it either, but what can you say?? There are no scientific
dates for Piezo. I normally elaborate saying I use X paper, mounted
archival, and duration depends on how they are kept, but it really isn't an
issue as this system is well excepted blah blah. I'm not in the big league
for sales, but I've never not made a sale because of piezo.

Julian
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sam A. McCandless" <samcc@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2001 4:12 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] print sales - longevity claims?


> I'm uneasy with Julian's answer, partly because I don't think we
> should say anything on our own authority because I don't think we
> know. I think we should point people to credible independent testers
> such as RIT and Wilhelm. If we do, won't they find color prints with
> longer lifespans than BW? My guess is that's only because some ink
> manufacturers have been investing in the testing longer than others
> or have been testing color but not quadtones. I think it would take a
> fairly long and elaborate answer to include such interpretive notes,
> and an even longer and more elaborate one to say anything very
> encouraging about ink-and-paper combinations not tested by any third
> party. That would be good to do, I think, and might result in
> something useful as a handout or enclosure, but I'm afraid it's a
> major project.
>
> Sam
>
>
> >Whenever I'm asked I always say better than colour and not as good as
> >selenium toned silver.
> >
> >Julian
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "frankg_photo" <frank@...>
> >To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> >Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2001 2:24 PM
> >Subject: [Digital BW] print sales - longevity claims?
> >
> >
> > > when you sell your "carbon pigment" prints (MIS or Piez), what claims
> > > can you safely make regarding the archival issue.
> > >
> > > How long can you safely claim the print's integrity under 'normal"
> > > hanging conditions in a home environment (which I'd say is a fair mix
> > > of ambient(uv) & artificial (mostly tungsten) light.
> > >
> > > Dark storage, pollutant free, humidity controlled environments are,
> > > of course, a little different.
> > >
> > > I realise this would be specific depending on which paper has been
> > > used; but I'm just looking for some guidance- or a ballpark range.
> > >
> > > thanks
> > > frank
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
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Did I really type 'excepted..??@ I need more coffee.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Julian Thomas" <julianthomas@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2001 4:21 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] print sales - longevity claims?


> I'm not happy with it either, but what can you say?? There are no
scientific
> dates for Piezo. I normally elaborate saying I use X paper, mounted
> archival, and duration depends on how they are kept, but it really isn't
an
> issue as this system is well excepted blah blah. I'm not in the big league
> for sales, but I've never not made a sale because of piezo.
>
> Julian
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Sam A. McCandless" <samcc@...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2001 4:12 PM
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] print sales - longevity claims?
>
>
> > I'm uneasy with Julian's answer, partly because I don't think we
> > should say anything on our own authority because I don't think we
> > know. I think we should point people to credible independent testers
> > such as RIT and Wilhelm. If we do, won't they find color prints with
> > longer lifespans than BW? My guess is that's only because some ink
> > manufacturers have been investing in the testing longer than others
> > or have been testing color but not quadtones. I think it would take a
> > fairly long and elaborate answer to include such interpretive notes,
> > and an even longer and more elaborate one to say anything very
> > encouraging about ink-and-paper combinations not tested by any third
> > party. That would be good to do, I think, and might result in
> > something useful as a handout or enclosure, but I'm afraid it's a
> > major project.
> >
> > Sam
> >
> >
> > >Whenever I'm asked I always say better than colour and not as good as
> > >selenium toned silver.
> > >
> > >Julian
> > >----- Original Message -----
> > >From: "frankg_photo" <frank@...>
> > >To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > >Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2001 2:24 PM
> > >Subject: [Digital BW] print sales - longevity claims?
> > >
> > >
> > > > when you sell your "carbon pigment" prints (MIS or Piez), what
claims
> > > > can you safely make regarding the archival issue.
> > > >
> > > > How long can you safely claim the print's integrity under 'normal"
> > > > hanging conditions in a home environment (which I'd say is a fair
mix
> > > > of ambient(uv) & artificial (mostly tungsten) light.
> > > >
> > > > Dark storage, pollutant free, humidity controlled environments are,
> > > > of course, a little different.
> > > >
> > > > I realise this would be specific depending on which paper has been
> > > > used; but I'm just looking for some guidance- or a ballpark range.
> > > >
> > > > thanks
> > > > frank
> >
> >
> >
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
> other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > - Include your full name with your message.
> > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to
keep
> them short.
> > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject
header.
> > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
"flames."
> > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> resources on the homepage.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
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> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.

>
>
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> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

I do as Julian does. Unfortunately I don't see independent tests for the
carbon quads, but I take these factors into account and do the best I can
with making something meaningful from them:

Enhanced Generations on Hahnemuhle paper is at 100 Wilhelm years and
counting, and they use a less stable black than the Piezo or MIS VM black.

100 W. years is longer than most color photographs are rated by W.

I base my claim on using carbon pigments on H. papers.

Color pigments are likely to be less stable than black carbon pigments, thus
carbon quads are likely to last longer than color pigs, which already test
longer than most color photographic materials (Perhaps dye transfer lasts
longer).

I know (know? well no I don't know) these prints won't last as long as
silver BW prints because I'm told conditions which fade these guys
appreciably don't budge silver prints.

So all told I feel Julian is about right in a ball park sense. At least it
shows it's in there among other collected mediums...

Todd

>> I'm uneasy with Julian's answer, partly because I don't think we
>> should say anything on our own authority because I don't think we
>> know. I think we should point people to credible independent testers
>> such as RIT and Wilhelm. If we do, won't they find color prints with
>> longer lifespans than BW? My guess is that's only because some ink
>> manufacturers have been investing in the testing longer than others
>> or have been testing color but not quadtones. I think it would take a
>> fairly long and elaborate answer to include such interpretive notes,
>> and an even longer and more elaborate one to say anything very
>> encouraging about ink-and-paper combinations not tested by any third
>> party. That would be good to do, I think, and might result in
>> something useful as a handout or enclosure, but I'm afraid it's a
>> major project.
>> 
>> Sam
>> 
>> 
>>> Whenever I'm asked I always say better than colour and not as good as
>>> selenium toned silver.
>>> 
>>> Julian
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "frankg_photo" <frank@...>
>>> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2001 2:24 PM
>>> Subject: [Digital BW] print sales - longevity claims?
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> when you sell your "carbon pigment" prints (MIS or Piez), what claims
>>>> can you safely make regarding the archival issue.
>>>> 
>>>> How long can you safely claim the print's integrity under 'normal"
>>>> hanging conditions in a home environment (which I'd say is a fair mix
>>>> of ambient(uv) & artificial (mostly tungsten) light.
>>>> 
>>>> Dark storage, pollutant free, humidity controlled environments are,
>>>> of course, a little different.
>>>> 
>>>> I realise this would be specific depending on which paper has been
>>>> used; but I'm just looking for some guidance- or a ballpark range.
>>>> 
>>>> thanks
>>>> frank
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
> other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>> 
>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>> 
>> Please follow these basic guidelines:
>> - Include your full name with your message.
>> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
>> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
>> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
>> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
>> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
>> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> resources on the homepage.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>> 
>> 
>> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
>

Why can't we just use a "Silver" pigmented ink?


----- Original Message -----
From: "Todd Flashner" <tflash@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2001 11:05 AM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] print sales - longevity claims?


> I do as Julian does. Unfortunately I don't see independent tests for the
> carbon quads, but I take these factors into account and do the best I can
> with making something meaningful from them:
>
> Enhanced Generations on Hahnemuhle paper is at 100 Wilhelm years and
> counting, and they use a less stable black than the Piezo or MIS VM black.
>
> 100 W. years is longer than most color photographs are rated by W.
>
> I base my claim on using carbon pigments on H. papers.
>
> Color pigments are likely to be less stable than black carbon pigments,
thus
> carbon quads are likely to last longer than color pigs, which already test
> longer than most color photographic materials (Perhaps dye transfer lasts
> longer).
>
> I know (know? well no I don't know) these prints won't last as long as
> silver BW prints because I'm told conditions which fade these guys
> appreciably don't budge silver prints.
>
> So all told I feel Julian is about right in a ball park sense. At least it
> shows it's in there among other collected mediums...
>
> Todd
>
> >> I'm uneasy with Julian's answer, partly because I don't think we
> >> should say anything on our own authority because I don't think we
> >> know. I think we should point people to credible independent testers
> >> such as RIT and Wilhelm. If we do, won't they find color prints with
> >> longer lifespans than BW? My guess is that's only because some ink
> >> manufacturers have been investing in the testing longer than others
> >> or have been testing color but not quadtones. I think it would take a
> >> fairly long and elaborate answer to include such interpretive notes,
> >> and an even longer and more elaborate one to say anything very
> >> encouraging about ink-and-paper combinations not tested by any third
> >> party. That would be good to do, I think, and might result in
> >> something useful as a handout or enclosure, but I'm afraid it's a
> >> major project.
> >>
> >> Sam
> >>
> >>
> >>> Whenever I'm asked I always say better than colour and not as good as
> >>> selenium toned silver.
> >>>
> >>> Julian
> >>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>> From: "frankg_photo" <frank@...>
> >>> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> >>> Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2001 2:24 PM
> >>> Subject: [Digital BW] print sales - longevity claims?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> when you sell your "carbon pigment" prints (MIS or Piez), what claims
> >>>> can you safely make regarding the archival issue.
> >>>>
> >>>> How long can you safely claim the print's integrity under 'normal"
> >>>> hanging conditions in a home environment (which I'd say is a fair mix
> >>>> of ambient(uv) & artificial (mostly tungsten) light.
> >>>>
> >>>> Dark storage, pollutant free, humidity controlled environments are,
> >>>> of course, a little different.
> >>>>
> >>>> I realise this would be specific depending on which paper has been
> >>>> used; but I'm just looking for some guidance- or a ballpark range.
> >>>>
> >>>> thanks
> >>>> frank
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls
and
> > other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> >>
> >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >>
> >> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> >> - Include your full name with your message.
> >> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> >> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to
keep
> > them short.
> >> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject
header.
> >> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
"flames."
> >> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> >> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the
various
> > resources on the homepage.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other
> > resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > - Include your full name with your message.
> > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to
keep
> > them short.
> > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject
header.
> > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
"flames."
> > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> > resources on the homepage.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
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>

The MoMA in NYC buys two color prints of each image they want 
in their collection.  One for display and one for dark storage.  If a 
buyer is nervous about print longevity, offer to sell him a second 
copy at a reduced fee for dark storage.  That's a win-win situation 
as we get a chance to sell more art.

Frank

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Scott Hendershot" 
<scott@p...> wrote:
> Why can't we just use a "Silver" pigmented ink?
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Todd Flashner" <tflash@e...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...>
> Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2001 11:05 AM
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] print sales - longevity claims?
> 
> 
> > I do as Julian does. Unfortunately I don't see independent 
tests for the
> > carbon quads, but I take these factors into account and do 
the best I can
> > with making something meaningful from them:
> >
> > Enhanced Generations on Hahnemuhle paper is at 100 
Wilhelm years and
> > counting, and they use a less stable black than the Piezo or 
MIS VM black.
> >
> > 100 W. years is longer than most color photographs are 
rated by W.
> >
> > I base my claim on using carbon pigments on H. papers.
> >
> > Color pigments are likely to be less stable than black carbon 
pigments,
> thus
> > carbon quads are likely to last longer than color pigs, which 
already test
> > longer than most color photographic materials (Perhaps dye 
transfer lasts
> > longer).
> >
> > I know (know? well no I don't know) these prints won't last as 
long as
> > silver BW prints because I'm told conditions which fade 
these guys
> > appreciably don't budge silver prints.
> >
> > So all told I feel Julian is about right in a ball park sense. At 
least it
> > shows it's in there among other collected mediums...
> >
> > Todd
> >
> > >> I'm uneasy with Julian's answer, partly because I don't 
think we
> > >> should say anything on our own authority because I don't 
think we
> > >> know. I think we should point people to credible 
independent testers
> > >> such as RIT and Wilhelm. If we do, won't they find color 
prints with
> > >> longer lifespans than BW? My guess is that's only 
because some ink
> > >> manufacturers have been investing in the testing longer 
than others
> > >> or have been testing color but not quadtones. I think it 
would take a
> > >> fairly long and elaborate answer to include such 
interpretive notes,
> > >> and an even longer and more elaborate one to say 
anything very
> > >> encouraging about ink-and-paper combinations not 
tested by any third
> > >> party. That would be good to do, I think, and might result in
> > >> something useful as a handout or enclosure, but I'm 
afraid it's a
> > >> major project.
> > >>
> > >> Sam
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>> Whenever I'm asked I always say better than colour and 
not as good as
> > >>> selenium toned silver.
> > >>>
> > >>> Julian
> > >>> ----- Original Message -----
> > >>> From: "frankg_photo" <frank@f...>
> > >>> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...>
> > >>> Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2001 2:24 PM
> > >>> Subject: [Digital BW] print sales - longevity claims?
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>> when you sell your "carbon pigment" prints (MIS or 
Piez), what claims
> > >>>> can you safely make regarding the archival issue.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> How long can you safely claim the print's integrity under 
'normal"
> > >>>> hanging conditions in a home environment (which I'd 
say is a fair mix
> > >>>> of ambient(uv) & artificial (mostly tungsten) light.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Dark storage, pollutant free, humidity controlled 
environments are,
> > >>>> of course, a little different.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> I realise this would be specific depending on which 
paper has been
> > >>>> used; but I'm just looking for some guidance- or a 
ballpark range.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> thanks
> > >>>> frank
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, 
Bookmarks, Polls
> and
> > > other resources as they are often being updated. The page 
is at:
> > >>
> > >> 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> > >>
> > >> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > >> - Include your full name with your message.
> > >> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> > >> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier 
messages to
> keep
> > > them short.
> > >> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change 
the subject
> header.
> > >> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal 
attacks or
> "flames."
> > >> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> > >> - Before posting a question, search the message 
archives and the
> various
> > > resources on the homepage.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > >
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I want platinum pigments...

> From: "Tim Spragens" <t.spragens@...>
> Reply-To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 19:33:09 +0100
> To: digitalblackandwhitetheprint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] print sales - longevity claims?
> 
> And some think that IJM inks are expensive...
> 
> Tim
> 
> 
>> Why can't we just use a "Silver" pigmented ink?
>> 
>> 
> 
> --
> Tim Spragens
> http://www.borderless-photos.com
> &
> http://www.borderless-photos.de
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
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> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
>

And some think that IJM inks are expensive...

Tim


> Why can't we just use a "Silver" pigmented ink?
> 
> 

--
Tim Spragens
http://www.borderless-photos.com
&
http://www.borderless-photos.de

Does anyone have a link to a good comparison of the 1280 and 2000P
performance specifications other than what Epson provides on its web site?
The seem to use apples and oranges in their comparisons.  For example, how
do the droplet sizes compare?  Epson quotes 4 picoliters for one and .1
micron for the other.  A picoliter is "10 raised to the negative 12" of a
liter and a micron is one millionth of a meter.  It has been a long time
since science class, but to me that means a picoliter is a measure of volume
and micron is a measure of length.

Thanks in advance,
Doug

What we can say is, I'm afraid, either so weak as to be worse than 
nothing, or too strong to be justifiable. So I think we should say to 
IJM that we need something from RIT or Wilhelm to which we can point. 
Even a single inkset on a single paper out of a single printer would 
I believe be a big help. I'm sure IJM doesn't want to spend the money 
but if MIS can afford it, I'd think IJM can.

Sam

>I'm not happy with it either, but what can you say?? There are no scientific
>dates for Piezo. [snip]
>
>Julian

I feel so too Todd, and feel so based on this same chain of 
reasoning. But while this persuades us, I don't think it's useful 
promo. In fact, I'm afraid that some people's eyes would glaze over 
and they would be reminded of the last car or computer sales person 
who talked too fast about technicalities they didn't understand. 
Especially if they heard from the Iris printer that actually the 
paper in the 100-year test wasn't Hahnemuhle at all and was coated 
with a different coating and here's a web site to prove it. We could 
try to explain that away, if we got a chance, but once you get in a 
position of having to explain things away, I think you've lost. So I 
wouldn't say what you and Julian say, not because I don't believe 
it's true, but because I think it's better to say too little than too 
much. What I do think we should say to IJM (and other vendors) is 
that we need test results at RIT or Wilhelm to which we can point.

Sam

>I do as Julian does. Unfortunately I don't see independent tests for the
>carbon quads, but I take these factors into account and do the best I can
>with making something meaningful from them:
>
>Enhanced Generations on Hahnemuhle paper is at 100 Wilhelm years and
>counting, and they use a less stable black than the Piezo or MIS VM black.
>
>100 W. years is longer than most color photographs are rated by W.
>
>I base my claim on using carbon pigments on H. papers.
>
>Color pigments are likely to be less stable than black carbon pigments, thus
>carbon quads are likely to last longer than color pigs, which already test
>longer than most color photographic materials (Perhaps dye transfer lasts
>longer).
>
>I know (know? well no I don't know) these prints won't last as long as
>silver BW prints because I'm told conditions which fade these guys
>appreciably don't budge silver prints.
>
>So all told I feel Julian is about right in a ball park sense. At least it
>shows it's in there among other collected mediums...
>
>Todd

I certainly agree and I wish you luck. You won't be the first who's
requested as much from IJM.

The other thing I told a gallery was that I'd bet my house that my prints
would outlast the Mixed Media prints they had hanging and were selling for
$700 ea. (about 11"x11"). These to my eye were an amalgam of offset press
materials (wrapping papers I think), inkjet, acrylics, and of course,
adhesives. I bet that artist wasn't even asked how long theirs would last...

Todd

> I feel so too Todd, and feel so based on this same chain of
> reasoning. But while this persuades us, I don't think it's useful
> promo. In fact, I'm afraid that some people's eyes would glaze over
> and they would be reminded of the last car or computer sales person
> who talked too fast about technicalities they didn't understand.
> Especially if they heard from the Iris printer that actually the
> paper in the 100-year test wasn't Hahnemuhle at all and was coated
> with a different coating and here's a web site to prove it. We could
> try to explain that away, if we got a chance, but once you get in a
> position of having to explain things away, I think you've lost. So I
> wouldn't say what you and Julian say, not because I don't believe
> it's true, but because I think it's better to say too little than too
> much. What I do think we should say to IJM (and other vendors) is
> that we need test results at RIT or Wilhelm to which we can point.
> 
> Sam
> 
> 
>> I do as Julian does. Unfortunately I don't see independent tests for the
>> carbon quads, but I take these factors into account and do the best I can
>> with making something meaningful from them:
>> 
>> Enhanced Generations on Hahnemuhle paper is at 100 Wilhelm years and
>> counting, and they use a less stable black than the Piezo or MIS VM black.
>> 
>> 100 W. years is longer than most color photographs are rated by W.
>> 
>> I base my claim on using carbon pigments on H. papers.
>> 
>> Color pigments are likely to be less stable than black carbon pigments, thus
>> carbon quads are likely to last longer than color pigs, which already test
>> longer than most color photographic materials (Perhaps dye transfer lasts
>> longer).
>> 
>> I know (know? well no I don't know) these prints won't last as long as
>> silver BW prints because I'm told conditions which fade these guys
>> appreciably don't budge silver prints.
>> 
>> So all told I feel Julian is about right in a ball park sense. At least it
>> shows it's in there among other collected mediums...
>> 
>> Todd
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
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> 
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> 
>

Forgot to add that what I said didn't matter, they wanted to speak with
other gallery friends, but hey, I had to say something.

"I don't know", "could be weeks, could be years", "don't ask me, ask
Wilhelm" etc., doesn't cut it either.

The first question the owner asked me was why I've chosen to work with these
materials; then how long they'll last. However flawed our logic or
predictions are in this matter, it's important we be in touch with why we do
use them, and what faith we do have in them. If I had no trust in them I
just wouldn't use them, like I don't use my 1270 inks for anything I care
about. If you do have faith in them I think there is no harm in stating it.
If you don't have faith in them, well, send them as postcards or keep 'em in
dark storage.

Todd

> I certainly agree and I wish you luck. You won't be the first who's requested
> as much from IJM.
> 
> The other thing I told a gallery was that I'd bet my house that my prints
> would outlast the Mixed Media prints they had hanging and were selling for
> $700 ea. (about 11"x11"). These to my eye were an amalgam of offset press
> materials (wrapping papers I think), inkjet, acrylics, and of course,
> adhesives. I bet that artist wasn't even asked how long theirs would last...
> 
> Todd
> 
>> I feel so too Todd, and feel so based on this same chain of
>> reasoning. But while this persuades us, I don't think it's useful
>> promo. In fact, I'm afraid that some people's eyes would glaze over
>> and they would be reminded of the last car or computer sales person
>> who talked too fast about technicalities they didn't understand.
>> Especially if they heard from the Iris printer that actually the
>> paper in the 100-year test wasn't Hahnemuhle at all and was coated
>> with a different coating and here's a web site to prove it. We could
>> try to explain that away, if we got a chance, but once you get in a
>> position of having to explain things away, I think you've lost. So I
>> wouldn't say what you and Julian say, not because I don't believe
>> it's true, but because I think it's better to say too little than too
>> much. What I do think we should say to IJM (and other vendors) is
>> that we need test results at RIT or Wilhelm to which we can point.
>> 
>> Sam

I haven't tried to sell any "carbon pigment" prints yet, but I've wondered 
whether it might be legitimate to answer this question by relating the 
materials to other accepted art media, especially watercolors.  For 
example, one could say "It is really impossible to predict a life span, 
because that depends on display conditions among other things.  But the 
pigments used are the same as (or "similar to") some of the most stable 
watercolor pigments and the paper is acid-free rag."  Perhaps this could be 
followed with a brief description of proper display conditions.  Is this 
satisfying?  Is it accurate?

There is a very "confuse the heck out of any non-technician" page on 
the MIS website regarding their fade testing 
http://www.inksupply.com/index.cfm?source=html/fading.html
I cant make out anything to help put a "number of years" claim to a 
print made with their quadtone inkset and hung under "normal" (mixed 
daylight & tungsten). Can anyone figure it out. 2-10-25-50-150 years??


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Christopher Patti 
<christopher.patti@u...> wrote:
> I haven't tried to sell any "carbon pigment" prints yet, but I've 
wondered 
> whether it might be legitimate to answer this question by relating 
the 
> materials to other accepted art media, especially watercolors.  For 
> example, one could say "It is really impossible to predict a life 
span, 
> because that depends on display conditions among other things.  But 
the 
> pigments used are the same as (or "similar to") some of the most 
stable 
> watercolor pigments and the paper is acid-free rag."  Perhaps this 
could be 
> followed with a brief description of proper display conditions.  Is 
this 
> satisfying?  Is it accurate?

Yes,

I do think that IJM inks are expensive. But, I don't think it is the Carbon
that makes them expensive. I wonder what it would take to make a
reduced-Silver ink?

Scott

----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim Spragens" <t.spragens@...>
To: <digitalblackandwhitetheprint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2001 1:33 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] print sales - longevity claims?


> And some think that IJM inks are expensive...
>
> Tim
>
>
> > Why can't we just use a "Silver" pigmented ink?
> >
> >
>
> --
> Tim Spragens
> http://www.borderless-photos.com
> &
> http://www.borderless-photos.de
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.

>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Very good question - I wonder if it could be held in suspension by 
anything that would flow well through an inkjet head. My comment was 
more that if someone came out with one, they'd likely charge an 
extreme premium for it.

Tim

> Yes,
> 
> I do think that IJM inks are expensive. But, I don't think it is the
> Carbon that makes them expensive. I wonder what it would take to make
> a reduced-Silver ink?
> 
> Scott
> 
> > And some think that IJM inks are expensive...
> >
> > Tim
> >
> >
> > > Why can't we just use a "Silver" pigmented ink?
> > >

--
Tim Spragens
http://www.borderless-photos.com
&
http://www.borderless-photos.de

I'm sure it would carry a premium as all of the other inks do. But imagine
an inkset with truely neutral tones and all of the longevity and density of
a Silver print. Maybe even the ability to selenium tone the prints. That
would be worth a premium to me. Not sure just how much of a premium, but I
would pay at least as much as the Piezography B&W inks.

Scott

----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim Spragens" <t.spragens@...>
To: <digitalblackandwhitetheprint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2001 6:14 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] print sales - longevity claims?


> Very good question - I wonder if it could be held in suspension by
> anything that would flow well through an inkjet head. My comment was
> more that if someone came out with one, they'd likely charge an
> extreme premium for it.
>
> Tim
>
> > Yes,
> >
> > I do think that IJM inks are expensive. But, I don't think it is the
> > Carbon that makes them expensive. I wonder what it would take to make
> > a reduced-Silver ink?
> >
> > Scott
> >
> > > And some think that IJM inks are expensive...
> > >
> > > Tim
> > >
> > >
> > > > Why can't we just use a "Silver" pigmented ink?
> > > >
>
> --
> Tim Spragens
> http://www.borderless-photos.com
> &
> http://www.borderless-photos.de
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
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> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.

>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Another option would be a post-printing treatment, one that would 
have a protecting effect similar to what selenium or gold toning have 
on silver prints. Do any of the protective spray manufacturer's make 
claims about their product increasing print longevity? According to 
MIS, their new Gloss Coat for pigmented prints, "has UV resistance 
and increases the archival life of glossy prints." An increase in 
print longevity appears to be a consequence of protection against UV 
rays, rather than a chemical change effected in the ink, which is 
what happens to silver that is selenium/gold toned (supposedly 
becoming more stable and resistent to chemical disturbance).

Chris Hargens 

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Scott Hendershot" 
<scott@p...> wrote:
> I'm sure it would carry a premium as all of the other inks do. But 
imagine
> an inkset with truely neutral tones and all of the longevity and 
density of
> a Silver print. Maybe even the ability to selenium tone the prints. 
That
> would be worth a premium to me. Not sure just how much of a 
premium, but I
> would pay at least as much as the Piezography B&W inks.
> 
> Scott
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Tim Spragens" <t.spragens@c...>
> To: <digitalblackandwhitetheprint@y...>
> Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2001 6:14 PM
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] print sales - longevity claims?
> 
> 
> > Very good question - I wonder if it could be held in suspension by
> > anything that would flow well through an inkjet head. My comment 
was
> > more that if someone came out with one, they'd likely charge an
> > extreme premium for it.
> >
> > Tim
> >
> > > Yes,
> > >
> > > I do think that IJM inks are expensive. But, I don't think it 
is the
> > > Carbon that makes them expensive. I wonder what it would take 
to make
> > > a reduced-Silver ink?
> > >
> > > Scott
> > >
> > > > And some think that IJM inks are expensive...
> > > >
> > > > Tim
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Why can't we just use a "Silver" pigmented ink?
> > > > >
> >
> > --
> > Tim Spragens
> > http://www.borderless-photos.com
> > &
> > http://www.borderless-photos.de
> >
> >
> >
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, 
Polls and
> other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > - Include your full name with your message.
> > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier 
messages to keep
> them short.
> > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject 
header.
> > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks 
or "flames."
> > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the 
various
> resources on the homepage.
> >
> >
> >
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> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to 
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >

Sam,

But no-one knows how RIT and Wilhelm's tests will stand-up in the long run
either! Many people suggest that attempting to extrapolate a 'display life'
from xx minutes under a strong lamp is just plain wrong. Well, I understand
it is inevitable that someone should do that - but I fear it leads to too
many assumptions on the part of the purchaser or even the person doing the
printing! Some longevity 'reports' do not even state clearly what paper they
were using - let alone all the other factors that are expected - or even
'batch number of ink tested' (if colours can drift slightly between batches,
and I would assume they can - what would the impact be on the longevity?) My
understanding is that ink tests now tend to be done on a single colour basis
(e.g. test the life of the Yellow ink separate from th Cyan ink) which is
great until you hear that mixing might occur of inks when you print a
photographic image, which could result in less stable compounds. e.g.
perhaps one ink prints a longer-lasting Red than another ink-set.

As little as 6 months ago - I would estimate that the general perception on
the groups I browse was that if an ink lasted well on one paper - it would
do so on another! Even this has now been taken away from us with the strong
differentiation between coatings for pigments and surfaces most appropriate
for dyes - and how having the wrong surface for the ink can negatively
effect longevity.

I think even some people who should know better would be surprised if their
'100+ year ink' didn't last on tissue paper ;)

BUT we also have to remember, whatever our own personal goals, that
Watercolours are going to fade... that dyed fabrics are going to fade (a
local framing shop recently started selling pictures made up from  many
different fabrics - I wonder how many people asked how long the colour on
them would last!)

So one point to make is  - you have to find a solution you are happy with
for now, that you can justify without being overly bullish about it's
probably lifetime... (i.e. self satisfaction)... and then you need to find a
way to 'sell' that decision to your customers who will probably just want to
be told something like a number of years expected! In that sense, RIT and
Wilhelm results are very useful, even though they tell only a small fraction
of the story, I am sure!

Best regards,
Nij

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Sam A. McCandless [mailto:samcc@...]
> Sent: 19 December 2001 15:13
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] print sales - longevity claims?
>
>
> I'm uneasy with Julian's answer, partly because I don't think we
> should say anything on our own authority because I don't think we
> know. I think we should point people to credible independent testers
> such as RIT and Wilhelm. If we do, won't they find color prints with
> longer lifespans than BW? My guess is that's only because some ink
> manufacturers have been investing in the testing longer than others
> or have been testing color but not quadtones. I think it would take a
> fairly long and elaborate answer to include such interpretive notes,
> and an even longer and more elaborate one to say anything very
> encouraging about ink-and-paper combinations not tested by any third
> party. That would be good to do, I think, and might result in
> something useful as a handout or enclosure, but I'm afraid it's a
> major project.
>
> Sam
>

In this month's B&W Magazine (I think that's what it's
called), they feature several photographers, three of
which use digital technology.  
 One of the artists called his prints "Carbon Pigment
Giclee."  He said there are tests that report 100+
year print life, but that "no one really knows for
sure" how long these prints will last.  All he really
said was that he felt extremely confident in his
prints.  They didn't mention which specific inks or
papers he uses.
 His approach was to site one(or some) test but then
freely admit the uncertainty of the whole thing and
close with a personal statement about longevity in
regards to his reputation.  I don't think that's a bad
approach.  I would probably put more weight on the
test and less on the "no one knows for sure" part, but
offer up both.  
 OTOH.. would it be valid to compare traditional photo
print test results with inkjet test results?  "Under
the same conditions, carbon prints lasted xx times
longer than xx traditional photo prints."  These are
entirely different chemicals, etc. under specific sets
of conditions..  ie. do we know of any conditions in
which a traditional photo print can outlast a carbon
print? 

  -daniel perez



--- Nij <nigel@...> wrote:
> Sam,
> 
> But no-one knows how RIT and Wilhelm's tests will
> stand-up in the long run
> either! Many people suggest that attempting to
> extrapolate a 'display life'
> from xx minutes under a strong lamp is just plain
> wrong. Well, I understand
> it is inevitable that someone should do that - but I
> fear it leads to too
> many assumptions on the part of the purchaser or
> even the person doing the
> printing! Some longevity 'reports' do not even state
> clearly what paper they
> were using - let alone all the other factors that
> are expected - or even
> 'batch number of ink tested' (if colours can drift
> slightly between batches,
> and I would assume they can - what would the impact
> be on the longevity?) My
> understanding is that ink tests now tend to be done
> on a single colour basis
> (e.g. test the life of the Yellow ink separate from
> th Cyan ink) which is
> great until you hear that mixing might occur of inks
> when you print a
> photographic image, which could result in less
> stable compounds. e.g.
> perhaps one ink prints a longer-lasting Red than
> another ink-set.
> 
> As little as 6 months ago - I would estimate that
> the general perception on
> the groups I browse was that if an ink lasted well
> on one paper - it would
> do so on another! Even this has now been taken away
> from us with the strong
> differentiation between coatings for pigments and
> surfaces most appropriate
> for dyes - and how having the wrong surface for the
> ink can negatively
> effect longevity.
> 
> I think even some people who should know better
> would be surprised if their
> '100+ year ink' didn't last on tissue paper ;)
> 
> BUT we also have to remember, whatever our own
> personal goals, that
> Watercolours are going to fade... that dyed fabrics
> are going to fade (a
> local framing shop recently started selling pictures
> made up from  many
> different fabrics - I wonder how many people asked
> how long the colour on
> them would last!)
> 
> So one point to make is  - you have to find a
> solution you are happy with
> for now, that you can justify without being overly
> bullish about it's
> probably lifetime... (i.e. self satisfaction)... and
> then you need to find a
> way to 'sell' that decision to your customers who
> will probably just want to
> be told something like a number of years expected!
> In that sense, RIT and
> Wilhelm results are very useful, even though they
> tell only a small fraction
> of the story, I am sure!
> 
> Best regards,
> Nij
> 
> 
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Sam A. McCandless [mailto:samcc@...]
> > Sent: 19 December 2001 15:13
> > To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] print sales - longevity
> claims?
> >
> >
> > I'm uneasy with Julian's answer, partly because I
> don't think we
> > should say anything on our own authority because I
> don't think we
> > know. I think we should point people to credible
> independent testers
> > such as RIT and Wilhelm. If we do, won't they find
> color prints with
> > longer lifespans than BW? My guess is that's only
> because some ink
> > manufacturers have been investing in the testing
> longer than others
> > or have been testing color but not quadtones. I
> think it would take a
> > fairly long and elaborate answer to include such
> interpretive notes,
> > and an even longer and more elaborate one to say
> anything very
> > encouraging about ink-and-paper combinations not
> tested by any third
> > party. That would be good to do, I think, and
> might result in
> > something useful as a handout or enclosure, but
> I'm afraid it's a
> > major project.
> >
> > Sam
> >
> 
> 
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Daniel,

Interesting points.

This past weekend, while visiting my parents we pulled out their 
photo albums and began looking at images that dated back to the 
1940's. Certainly not a long time but a lifetine nonetheless.

The black and white "snapshots" that interestingly were in 2x3 format 
looked a good as the day they were shot. No discoloration and no 
apparent fading. The color images that dated to the late 50's and 
60's I presume were all faded although they still retained a special 
character. I wonder if they really faded or the early color processes 
just resulted in less saturated and vivid image colors as we are 
acustomed to today.

I printed a Piezo Quadtone image last night and compared it to one I 
printed about 2 years ago when I first got MIS Quads and has been on 
display framed and hung in my office. The original image was a bit 
warmer than todays image with the FS inks, but all in all I could see 
no other significant deteriorization.

I think that as with any process care must be taken to display 
fragile artwork in accordance within the realm of good practice. I 
recently took an archivally prepared fiber base silver print and left 
it in direct sunlight for a week. The print paper turned yellow. It 
is all a matter of degree.

You would never place a fine water color painting in direct sunlight. 
The water color pigments are very sensitive to UV and will fade 
fairly quickly.

As with anything else, time will tell.

Mike

mkravit wrote:

>
> I think that as with any process care must be taken to display
> fragile artwork in accordance within the realm of good practice. I
> recently took an archivally prepared fiber base silver print and left
> it in direct sunlight for a week. The print paper turned yellow. It
> is all a matter of degree.
>

I suspect what you saw was the presence of optical brighteners in the photo paper.  In the past decade or so,
all the photo companies have loaded (even their 'fine art' papers) with OBs.

It is an unfortunate turn of events in the pursuit of whiter whites.

Harvey Ferdschneider
partner, SKID Photography, NYC


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

"Nij" <nigel@...> wrote:

>Sam,
>
>But no-one knows how RIT and Wilhelm's tests will stand-up in the long run
>either! Many people suggest that attempting to extrapolate a 'display life'
>from xx minutes under a strong lamp is just plain wrong. Well, I understand
>it is inevitable that someone should do that - but I fear it leads to too
>many assumptions on the part of the purchaser or even the person doing the
>printing! Some longevity 'reports' do not even state clearly what paper they
>were using - let alone all the other factors that are expected - or even
>'batch number of ink tested' (if colours can drift slightly between batches,
>and I would assume they can - what would the impact be on the longevity?) My
>understanding is that ink tests now tend to be done on a single colour basis
>(e.g. test the life of the Yellow ink separate from th Cyan ink) which is
>great until you hear that mixing might occur of inks when you print a
>photographic image, which could result in less stable compounds. e.g.
>perhaps one ink prints a longer-lasting Red than another ink-set.
>
>As little as 6 months ago - I would estimate that the general perception on
>the groups I browse was that if an ink lasted well on one paper - it would
>do so on another! Even this has now been taken away from us with the strong
>differentiation between coatings for pigments and surfaces most appropriate
>for dyes - and how having the wrong surface for the ink can negatively
>effect longevity.
>
>I think even some people who should know better would be surprised if their
>'100+ year ink' didn't last on tissue paper ;)
>
>BUT we also have to remember, whatever our own personal goals, that
>Watercolours are going to fade... that dyed fabrics are going to fade (a
>local framing shop recently started selling pictures made up from  many
>different fabrics - I wonder how many people asked how long the colour on
>them would last!)
>
>So one point to make is  - you have to find a solution you are happy with
>for now, that you can justify without being overly bullish about it's
>probably lifetime... (i.e. self satisfaction)... and then you need to find a
>way to 'sell' that decision to your customers who will probably just want to
>be told something like a number of years expected! In that sense, RIT and
>Wilhelm results are very useful, even though they tell only a small fraction
>of the story, I am sure!

and I agree both with his conclusion and with his thinking that we 
need to be concerned about expectations based on test reports. Still, 
I wish we had that problem with all our prints.

Sam

>I haven't tried to sell any "carbon pigment" prints yet, but I've wondered
>whether it might be legitimate to answer this question by relating the
>materials to other accepted art media, especially watercolors.  For
>example, one could say "It is really impossible to predict a life span,
>because that depends on display conditions among other things.  But the
>pigments used are the same as (or "similar to") some of the most stable
>watercolor pigments and the paper is acid-free rag."  Perhaps this could be
>followed with a brief description of proper display conditions.  Is this
>satisfying?  Is it accurate?

I don't know whether it's accurate, but I do think it's good to 
include advice about mounting, matting, framing, glazing, and 
display. Actually, I think the more of that you do for them the 
better. I asked a successful local photographer why he showed his 
prints already framed, and he told me that 70 percent of the prints 
he sold were sold framed, nearly all of them in the frame in which he 
showed them.

Sam