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2005-11-26 by markketzler
If best BW print quality, in a dedicated Epson environment (can be a BW only printer) were the objective would you go with: ABW, Imageprint or Cone dedicate BW inks. Regardless of cost or effort in producing the print what would you use for a new BW printing setup. If personal preferences is an issue make it have superb tonal scale and look just like vintage Agfa 118 warm matte fiber!
2005-11-26 by hogarth@snappydsl.net
I did make this choice, and went with Cone's inks and the StudioPrint RIP. The question you are posing, however, seems to be full of gaps. Do you need to print color and grayscale from the same printer? Do you need to print on non-matte paper? Do you need to match exactly a particular shade - a warm-ish neutral? A colder selenium tone? Consider also the MIS inks, such as the UT7 inkset, especially if you want to print on non-matte surfaces. -- Bruce Watson markketzler wrote:
> If best BW print quality, in a dedicated Epson environment (can be a > BW only printer) were the objective would you go with: ABW, Imageprint > or Cone dedicate BW inks. Regardless of cost or effort in producing > the print what would you use for a new BW printing setup. If personal > preferences is an issue make it have superb tonal scale and look just > like vintage Agfa 118 warm matte fiber!
2005-11-26 by markketzler
Just to close any gaps: I do not need to print in color on the same printer, I would be printing on photorag 308 or similar matte, ideally My goal is to match vintage Agfa 118 warm matte fiber, but I have not seen any output on inkjet that did - yet. thanks again, --mark --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, hogarth@s... wrote: > > I did make this choice, and went with Cone's inks and the StudioPrint RIP.
> > The question you are posing, however, seems to be full of gaps. Do you > need to print color and grayscale from the same printer? Do you need to > print on non-matte paper? Do you need to match exactly a particular > shade - a warm-ish neutral? A colder selenium tone? > > Consider also the MIS inks, such as the UT7 inkset, especially if you > want to print on non-matte surfaces. > -- > Bruce Watson > > > markketzler wrote: > > > If best BW print quality, in a dedicated Epson environment (can be a > > BW only printer) were the objective would you go with: ABW, Imageprint > > or Cone dedicate BW inks. Regardless of cost or effort in producing > > the print what would you use for a new BW printing setup. If personal > > preferences is an issue make it have superb tonal scale and look just > > like vintage Agfa 118 warm matte fiber! >
2005-11-26 by Wendel White
I like the Cone inks and ImagePrint which works quite well for me. I have never tried to reproduce an appearance from analogue printing as a goal for my digital prints. Having said that I would think that a creamier paper like William Turner would be more suitable since Portriga was more of a warm tone image on a warm white (or cream) base. Anyway, with Agfa 118 as a goal I think you'll have to find the right paper first. Wendel
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] ABW vs. Cone vs. Imagprint > > Just to close any gaps: I do not need to print in color on the same > printer, I would be printing on photorag 308 or similar matte, ideally > My goal is to match vintage Agfa 118 warm matte fiber, but I have not > seen any output on inkjet that did - yet. > > thanks again, > > --mark
2005-11-26 by Paul Roark
> My goal is to match vintage Agfa 118 warm matte fiber, but I have not > seen any output on inkjet that did - yet. Can you describe the finish on that? The tone/hue of carbon inks come very close to some of the old prints I've seen, and carbon is the most lightfast there is according to my testing. Paul www.PaulRoark.com
2005-11-26 by scott_now_coming
I think you should try the ABW first, since it's included with hte printer and doesn't cost you extra money. If after using ABW for awhile you aren't happy with the results, then look for an alternative. At first, I wasn't impressed with the results I was getting with ABW on my 4800. But after a little "guidence" from this thread, I really like the results. I have to "settings" I use: One neutral and one warm. Scott --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "markketzler" <markketzler@y...> wrote: > > Just to close any gaps: I do not need to print in color on the same > printer, I would be printing on photorag 308 or similar matte, ideally > My goal is to match vintage Agfa 118 warm matte fiber, but I have not > seen any output on inkjet that did - yet. > > thanks again, > > --mark > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, hogarth@s... wrote: > > > > I did make this choice, and went with Cone's inks and the > StudioPrint RIP. > > > > The question you are posing, however, seems to be full of gaps. Do you > > need to print color and grayscale from the same printer? Do you need to > > print on non-matte paper? Do you need to match exactly a particular > > shade - a warm-ish neutral? A colder selenium tone? > > > > Consider also the MIS inks, such as the UT7 inkset, especially if you > > want to print on non-matte surfaces. > > -- > > Bruce Watson > > > > > > markketzler wrote: > > > > > If best BW print quality, in a dedicated Epson environment (can be a > > > BW only printer) were the objective would you go with: ABW, Imageprint > > > or Cone dedicate BW inks. Regardless of cost or effort in producing > > > the print what would you use for a new BW printing setup. If personal > > > preferences is an issue make it have superb tonal scale and look just
> > > like vintage Agfa 118 warm matte fiber! > > >
2005-11-26 by john dean
If I remember correctly that Agfa 118 paper was a silver rich warm toned matte paper with a slight luster finish. I actually like it because it looked kind of like leather. One of my teachers Esther Parada used it a lot and toned it slightly sepia. However that paper was not a good choice for a really long tonal range. It fell rather flat and dull in the shadow and dark midtone range, like most if not all matte silver papers. You might consider the Hahnemuhle Photrag Satin for something similar. Many people like it exactly for its surface and good tonal qualities. I have't used it. Now if you are trying to achieve a similar look to Agfa Portriga Rapid, the paper I used for many years, you may very well be in luck. We have been discussing this new type of inkjet paper by Crane that is about to be released called Silver Rag. You should do a search on this list and especially the yahoo large format Epson list to learn more about it. It is a 100% rag paper that has the surface of an air dried glossy silver print and a color tone just very, very slightly warm in the highlights. Shades Of Paper dot com will be carrying it when it is realeased. I don't have any samples yet. It apparently has a huge dmax and was designed for the Photo Black ink, although some have tested it with the Piezzotone inks with a rip with good results. How good will be someting I'm very interested in seeing myself since I hate changing out blacks on big machines. From everything I have read, after Christmas you are going to hear a lot of people talking about his paper with the new K3 inkset which already has excellent results with the glossy rc papers in regard to smoothness, neutrality, and density. I have always hated rc papers for anything and this new media with these new inksets may very well change this anti-glossy mindset for me, and probaly a lot of others as well. We'll see. I am very optimistic about these new possibilities. John --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" <paul.roark@v...> wrote: > > > > My goal is to match vintage Agfa 118 warm matte fiber, but I have not > > seen any output on inkjet that did - yet. > > Can you describe the finish on that? > > The tone/hue of carbon inks come very close to some of the old prints I've
> seen, and carbon is the most lightfast there is according to my testing. > > Paul > www.PaulRoark.com >
2005-11-27 by Tyler Boley
--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "john dean" <deanwork2003@y...> wrote: > > ...Agfa Portriga > Rapid, the paper I used for many years... John, you do have excellent taste. My favorite paper for years. A bit of benzetriazole in the developer to make it a bit more neutral, and a slight selenium toning to move a bit awawy fron green, and it's pure warm glowing silver magic. My favorite was a dense neg on grade one. Tyler
2005-11-27 by BKPhoto@aol.com
The old Portriga Rapid--with a bit of benzo in the developer!--gold toned. Some of the most beautiful prints I've ever seen. Wet or digital darkroom. Bill K.
-----Original Message----- From: Tyler Boley <tyler@tylerboley.com> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sun, 27 Nov 2005 04:41:37 -0000 Subject: Re: [Digital BW] ABW vs. Cone vs. Imagprint --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "john dean" <deanwork2003@y...> wrote: > > ...Agfa Portriga > Rapid, the paper I used for many years... John, you do have excellent taste. My favorite paper for years. A bit of benzetriazole in the developer to make it a bit more neutral, and a slight selenium toning to move a bit awawy fron green, and it's pure warm glowing silver magic. My favorite was a dense neg on grade one. Tyler Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as they are often being updated. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page. Please follow these basic guidelines: - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short. - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership without notice. - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the membership. - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files section: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/ BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP. Yahoo! Groups Links
2005-11-27 by john dean
Tyler, That is so interesting. I used to have a quart of that Benetrizole right beside my tray to cool it off a little too before I completed the procedure with selenium (in the Hypo Clearing Agent). Then it was perfect. I often used the Beers developer where you could create your own mono color with the blend of anti-foggants. As I'm sure you know,that yunky green cast came from the developing agents,like in Dektol, etc. Later when the Ilford developer, Bromophen, came out it has much better color tonality for an off the shelf product. What I am hoping is that his kind of surface,color tone, and dmax is now going to be possible with the Silver Rag inkjet media when it is available. It certainly wouldn't entice me to abandon my love of more natural surface rag papers, but is sure is going to extend our possibilities. Related to all this, do you guys remember the beautiful Afgacolor fiber based type c papers they had out in the 70's. I was just a kid but I still remember their qualities before Kodak and rc changed it all. Now we just may for the first time be moving toward that color-fiber semi gloss capability with this Crane paper, with Ultrachrome and K3. And, they will be much more alterable than what they had in the 70's. See, pixel technology IS an improvement. John --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Tyler Boley" <tyler@t...> wrote: > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "john dean" <deanwork2003@y...> > wrote: > > > > ...Agfa Portriga > > Rapid, the paper I used for many years... > > John, you do have excellent taste. My favorite paper for years. A bit of benzetriazole in the > developer to make it a bit more neutral, and a slight selenium toning to move a bit awawy > fron green, and it's pure warm glowing silver magic. My favorite was a dense neg on grade
> one. > Tyler >
2005-11-27 by Tyler Boley
Bill and John, we sure are coming off like reminiscing codgers. Bromophen! Yes! Turned on to it for Portriga by Michael Burns, one of the best printers I've ever known. Agfacolor fiber, yes to that too. My first color prints were on it, processed in trays in near total darkness. Now, they are faded, I don't think they lasted long. These surfaces have a beautiful quality very different from the coated rag papers we now love. I too look forward to having that look available for inkjet as well, hopefully it's around the corner. The more creative option at hand, the better. Tyler --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "john dean" <deanwork2003@y...> wrote:
> > Tyler, > > That is so interesting. I used to have a quart of that Benetrizole > right beside my tray to cool it off a little too before I completed > the procedure with selenium (in the Hypo Clearing Agent). Then it was > perfect. I often used the Beers developer where you could create your > own mono color with the blend of anti-foggants. As I'm sure you > know,that yunky green cast came from the developing agents,like in > Dektol, etc. Later when the Ilford developer, Bromophen, came out it > has much better color tonality for an off the shelf product. > > What I am hoping is that his kind of surface,color tone, and dmax is > now going to be possible with the Silver Rag inkjet media when it is > available. It certainly wouldn't entice me to abandon my love of more > natural surface rag papers, but is sure is going to extend our > possibilities. > > Related to all this, do you guys remember the beautiful Afgacolor > fiber based type c papers they had out in the 70's. I was just a kid > but I still remember their qualities before Kodak and rc changed it > all. Now we just may for the first time be moving toward that > color-fiber semi gloss capability with this Crane paper, with > Ultrachrome and K3. And, they will be much more alterable than what > they had in the 70's. See, pixel technology IS an improvement. > > John > > > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Tyler Boley" > <tyler@t...> wrote: > > > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "john dean" > <deanwork2003@y...> > > wrote: > > > > > > ...Agfa Portriga > > > Rapid, the paper I used for many years... > > > > John, you do have excellent taste. My favorite paper for years. A > bit of benzetriazole in the > > developer to make it a bit more neutral, and a slight selenium > toning to move a bit awawy > > fron green, and it's pure warm glowing silver magic. My favorite was > a dense neg on grade > > one. > > Tyler > > >
2005-11-27 by john dean
I know, we're lucky to still be alive. What is happening now is what I dreamed of then (in the days of Henry Fox Talbot) - total black and white tonal cuve control on the fly, along with unlimited dodging and burning capability on things called layer copies, and permanent color. But just as significant as those things is the fact that we have the best of both of the worlds, the printmaking worlds materials and the photo worlds materials, even the cibachrome surface. This year I think we are going to have it all in one place and without all the poisons of past eras. It will be a fun year even without Portriga, rest her soul. John --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Tyler Boley" <tyler@t...> wrote: > > Bill and John, we sure are coming off like reminiscing codgers. Bromophen! Yes! Turned on > to it for Portriga by Michael Burns, one of the best printers I've ever known. > Agfacolor fiber, yes to that too. My first color prints were on it, processed in trays in near > total darkness. Now, they are faded, I don't think they lasted long. > These surfaces have a beautiful quality very different from the coated rag papers we now > love. I too look forward to having that look available for inkjet as well, hopefully it's
> around the corner. The more creative option at hand, the better. > Tyler > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "john dean" > <deanwork2003@y...> wrote: > > > > Tyler, > > > > That is so interesting. I used to have a quart of that Benetrizole > > right beside my tray to cool it off a little too before I completed > > the procedure with selenium (in the Hypo Clearing Agent). Then it was > > perfect. I often used the Beers developer where you could create your > > own mono color with the blend of anti-foggants. As I'm sure you > > know,that yunky green cast came from the developing agents,like in > > Dektol, etc. Later when the Ilford developer, Bromophen, came out it > > has much better color tonality for an off the shelf product. > > > > What I am hoping is that his kind of surface,color tone, and dmax is > > now going to be possible with the Silver Rag inkjet media when it is > > available. It certainly wouldn't entice me to abandon my love of more > > natural surface rag papers, but is sure is going to extend our > > possibilities. > > > > Related to all this, do you guys remember the beautiful Afgacolor > > fiber based type c papers they had out in the 70's. I was just a kid > > but I still remember their qualities before Kodak and rc changed it > > all. Now we just may for the first time be moving toward that > > color-fiber semi gloss capability with this Crane paper, with > > Ultrachrome and K3. And, they will be much more alterable than what > > they had in the 70's. See, pixel technology IS an improvement. > > > > John > > > > > > > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Tyler Boley" > > <tyler@t...> wrote: > > > > > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "john dean" > > <deanwork2003@y...> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > ...Agfa Portriga > > > > Rapid, the paper I used for many years... > > > > > > John, you do have excellent taste. My favorite paper for years. A > > bit of benzetriazole in the > > > developer to make it a bit more neutral, and a slight selenium > > toning to move a bit awawy > > > fron green, and it's pure warm glowing silver magic. My favorite was > > a dense neg on grade > > > one. > > > Tyler > > > > > >
2005-11-27 by BKPhoto@aol.com
I'll drink to that. BK
-----Original Message-----
From: john dean <deanwork2003@...>
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sun, 27 Nov 2005 19:41:37 -0000
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] ABW vs. Cone vs. Imagprint
I know, we're lucky to still be alive. What is happening now is what
I
dreamed of then (in the days of Henry Fox Talbot) - total black and
white tonal cuve control on the fly, along with unlimited dodging and
burning capability on things called layer copies, and permanent color.
But just as significant as those things is the fact that we have the
best of both of the worlds, the printmaking worlds materials and the
photo worlds materials, even the cibachrome surface. This year I think
we are going to have it all in one place and without all the poisons
of past eras. It will be a fun year even without Portriga, rest her
soul.
John
--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Tyler Boley"
<tyler@t...> wrote:
>
> Bill and John, we sure are coming off like reminiscing codgers.
Bromophen! Yes! Turned on
> to it for Portriga by Michael Burns, one of the best printers I've
ever known.
> Agfacolor fiber, yes to that too. My first color prints were on it,
processed in trays in near
> total darkness. Now, they are faded, I don't think they lasted long.
> These surfaces have a beautiful quality very different from the
coated rag papers we now
> love. I too look forward to having that look available for inkjet as
well, hopefully it's
> around the corner. The more creative option at hand, the better.
> Tyler
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "john dean"
> <deanwork2003@y...> wrote:
> >
> > Tyler,
> >
> > That is so interesting. I used to have a quart of that Benetrizole
> > right beside my tray to cool it off a little too before I completed
> > the procedure with selenium (in the Hypo Clearing Agent). Then it
was
> > perfect. I often used the Beers developer where you could create
your
> > own mono color with the blend of anti-foggants. As I'm sure you
> > know,that yunky green cast came from the developing agents,like in
> > Dektol, etc. Later when the Ilford developer, Bromophen, came out it
> > has much better color tonality for an off the shelf product.
> >
> > What I am hoping is that his kind of surface,color tone, and dmax is
> > now going to be possible with the Silver Rag inkjet media when it is
> > available. It certainly wouldn't entice me to abandon my love of
more
> > natural surface rag papers, but is sure is going to extend our
> > possibilities.
> >
> > Related to all this, do you guys remember the beautiful Afgacolor
> > fiber based type c papers they had out in the 70's. I was just a kid
> > but I still remember their qualities before Kodak and rc changed it
> > all. Now we just may for the first time be moving toward that
> > color-fiber semi gloss capability with this Crane paper, with
> > Ultrachrome and K3. And, they will be much more alterable than what
> > they had in the 70's. See, pixel technology IS an improvement.
> >
> > John
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Tyler Boley"
> > <tyler@t...> wrote:
> > >
> > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "john dean"
> > <deanwork2003@y...>
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > ...Agfa Portriga
> > > > Rapid, the paper I used for many years...
> > >
> > > John, you do have excellent taste. My favorite paper for years. A
> > bit of benzetriazole in the
> > > developer to make it a bit more neutral, and a slight selenium
> > toning to move a bit awawy
> > > fron green, and it's pure warm glowing silver magic. My favorite
was
> > a dense neg on grade
> > > one.
> > > Tyler
> > >
> >
>
Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources
as they
are often being updated.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this
same page.
Please follow these basic guidelines:
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to
keep them
short.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
Hostile,
aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership
without
notice.
- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed
from the
membership.
- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
guidelines,
and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and
Moderators. See
"Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files section:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE
PRINT YAHOO!
GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND
"MODERATORS" OF
DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY
DIRECT,
INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES,
INCLUDING BUT
NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR
OTHER
INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW,
THE
PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH
DAMAGES),
RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE
PRINT
YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR
TRANSMISSIONS OR
DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW,
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PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW,
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