Digital BW, The Print

I'm getting really good, consistent results w/ EEM.

I recall Clayton Jones talking about EEM turning yellow in time. However, I think that he was 
talking about this as related to BO printing.

w/ the 2400 K3 inks will you still see yellowing in the image itself (discounting white 
boarders)?

http://www.wilhelm-research.com/epson/R2400.html


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Kevin" 
<vinke@...> wrote:
>
> I'm getting really good, consistent results w/ EEM.
> 
> I recall Clayton Jones talking about EEM turning yellow in time. 
However, I think that he was 
> talking about this as related to BO printing.
> 
> w/ the 2400 K3 inks will you still see yellowing in the image itself 
(discounting white 
> boarders)?
>

That's for the inks and not the paper base which would turn yellow.  
Notice the Ozone test are all not finished. It's the environment that  
turns the paper yellow. Just put a piece of clear shipping tape on a  
sheet and watch.
Mark

On Aug 14, 2006, at 9:51 AM, Kevin wrote:

>
> http://www.wilhelm-research.com/epson/R2400.html
>
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Kevin"
> <vinke@...> wrote:
>>
>> I'm getting really good, consistent results w/ EEM.
>>
>> I recall Clayton Jones talking about EEM turning yellow in time.
> However, I think that he was
>> talking about this as related to BO printing.
>>
>> w/ the 2400 K3 inks will you still see yellowing in the image itself
> (discounting white
>> boarders)?
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Mark Savoia 
<mark@...> wrote:
>
> That's for the inks and not the paper base which would turn yellow.  
> Notice the Ozone test are all not finished. It's the environment 
that  
> turns the paper yellow. Just put a piece of clear shipping tape on a  
> sheet and watch.
> Mark
> 


The Plasticisers and or glue in the tape may turn the paper yellow, 
certain products do this to good Hahnemuhle papers after enough years 
go by.

and maybe I'm not reading it correctly, is "EEM w/ K3 inks 
using "Advanced B&W mode" for "Album/Dark Storage" which 
includes "Paper Yellowing" rated at 110 years.

Is this not a rating of the K3 ink used in combination w/ EEM paper?

Is ozone really going to effect my paper in a dark storage album?

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Mark Savoia 
<mark@...> wrote:
>
> That's for the inks and not the paper base which would turn yellow.  
> Notice the Ozone test are all not finished. It's the environment 
that  

> turns the paper yellow. Just put a piece of clear shipping tape on a  
> sheet and watch.
> Mark
> 
>

The atmosphere will turn a white sheet of man made materials Yellow, too.
It's not just paper.

gar

  -----Original Message-----
  From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Greg
  Sent: Monday, August 14, 2006 7:06 AM
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Found This and It Looks Promissing:


  --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Mark Savoia
  <mark@...> wrote:
  >
  > That's for the inks and not the paper base which would turn yellow.
  > Notice the Ozone test are all not finished. It's the environment
  that
  > turns the paper yellow. Just put a piece of clear shipping tape on a
  > sheet and watch.
  > Mark
  >

  The Plasticisers and or glue in the tape may turn the paper yellow,
  certain products do this to good Hahnemuhle papers after enough years
  go by.



  


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Kevin" <vinke@...> wrote:
>
> I'm getting really good, consistent results w/ EEM.
> 
> I recall Clayton Jones talking about EEM turning yellow in time. However, I think that he was 
> talking about this as related to BO printing.
> 
> w/ the 2400 K3 inks will you still see yellowing in the image itself (discounting white 
> boarders)?
>
I was working on setting up a color printer last week using EEM and I was struck by the 
visible yellowing in EEM in five days time.  I left a print out on a desk where the only light is 
from north facing windows.  I was printing the same image with some modifications on a 
fresh sheet of EEM from dark storage and before I could even look at the image I was struck 
by the difference in paper color in just those few days.  It was dramatic enough that I had to 
check that it was EEM on the first print (I'd been marking them as I had a number of papers 
out) and that I'd printed on the right side.  The yellowing showed up most dramatically in the 
evenings when the only light source was 5000k flourescent bulbs.  With the 2400 and K3 inks 
it would be a question of how much of your white is dependent on paper white showing 
through.

Hello Kevin,

>and maybe I'm not reading it correctly, is "EEM w/ K3 inks 
>using "Advanced B&W mode" for "Album/Dark Storage" which 
>includes "Paper Yellowing" rated at 110 years.
>Is this not a rating of the K3 ink used in combination w/ EEM paper?
>Is ozone really going to effect my paper in a dark storage album?

You are asking questions for which most of us I think do not have
answers.  Would be best to ask Wilhelm, since he wrote the report. 
The experience of most long time forum people (gathered from comments
here over several years) is that EEM turns yellow in a relatively
short time (a few months).  Perhaps in dark storage it delays
yellowing, but can you guarantee that nobody will open your photos and
expose them to light or atmosphere?  Epson used to call it "Archival
Matte" and got so much grief for it they finally changed it to
"Enhanced Matte".  No serious printer in his/her right mind considers
it an archival paper.  It's great proof paper and is widely used for that.

If you want to make final prints on it then go ahead and do it.  But
it goes against the experience and advice of many long time
practitioners.  A VFA box says "Acid Free" on the cover.  The EEM box
does not.  Someone here, Paul I think, was able to measure it's acid
content if I remember correctly.  My own experience is that it turns a
dingy pale yellow relatively quickly and then slowly continues
yellowing.  I have an EEM print on my windowsill almost 3 years now
that looks a bit yellower than another that's been hanging in my work
room for around two years, and both of them are much yellower than a
fresh sheet.  If you don't mind it changing rapidly and continually
and don't mind the dingy color then go ahead and use it.

The best route would be to conduct your own tests.  Make a print on it
and let it sit around for a few months.  Every week compare it to a
fresh piece and see what happens.  Then you can form your own opinions
of it and act accordingly.

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

This is what I was curious about. Thanks for the reply.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "robert49brake" 
<robert49brake@...> wrote:
.  With the 2400 and K3 inks 
> it would be a question of how much of your white is dependent on 
paper white showing 
> through.
>

Thanks for the detailed response Clayton.

I'll do a small test of my own.

You recommend Red River's Dourian and Aurora Art papers
 Is it safe 
to say that the yellowing problem is all but gone with these papers?

Do you think that the Dourian Art is closer in texture and output to 
EEM?

I'm printing about 50 – 100 images each month and filing them in 
Itoya Art folders. Naturally, I want these images to look good 50+ 
years from now.
 
At the rate I'm printing these papers are about as much as I can 
afford.

The Epson Ultra Smooth and Velvet are just too much $.



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clayton Jones" 
<cj@...> wrote:
>
> Hello Kevin,
> 
> >and maybe I'm not reading it correctly, is "EEM w/ K3 inks 
> >using "Advanced B&W mode" for "Album/Dark Storage" which 
> >includes "Paper Yellowing" rated at 110 years.
> >Is this not a rating of the K3 ink used in combination w/ EEM 
paper?
> >Is ozone really going to effect my paper in a dark storage album?
> 
> You are asking questions for which most of us I think do not have
> answers.  Would be best to ask Wilhelm, since he wrote the report. 
> The experience of most long time forum people (gathered from 
comments
> here over several years) is that EEM turns yellow in a relatively
> short time (a few months).  Perhaps in dark storage it delays
> yellowing, but can you guarantee that nobody will open your photos 
and
> expose them to light or atmosphere?  Epson used to call it "Archival
> Matte" and got so much grief for it they finally changed it to
> "Enhanced Matte".  No serious printer in his/her right mind 
considers
> it an archival paper.  It's great proof paper and is widely used 
for that.
> 
> If you want to make final prints on it then go ahead and do it.  But
> it goes against the experience and advice of many long time
> practitioners.  A VFA box says "Acid Free" on the cover.  The EEM 
box
> does not.  Someone here, Paul I think, was able to measure it's acid
> content if I remember correctly.  My own experience is that it 
turns a
> dingy pale yellow relatively quickly and then slowly continues
> yellowing.  I have an EEM print on my windowsill almost 3 years now
> that looks a bit yellower than another that's been hanging in my 
work
> room for around two years, and both of them are much yellower than a
> fresh sheet.  If you don't mind it changing rapidly and continually
> and don't mind the dingy color then go ahead and use it.
> 
> The best route would be to conduct your own tests.  Make a print on 
it
> and let it sit around for a few months.  Every week compare it to a
> fresh piece and see what happens.  Then you can form your own 
opinions

> of it and act accordingly.
> 
> Regards,
> Clayton
> 
> 
> Info on black and white digital printing at    
> http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
>

Mark's right. Don't belive it. I have way too many Enhanced Matt
proofs lying around that have yellowed in the border areas in just 5
years when exposed to normal room light and indoor atmosphere.

Fact is, regardless of what Wilhelm says (and I for one never
understood this rating and it bothers me that he says that), this is a
low quality paper with a lot of obas to burn out. If you look at the
back of a paper such as Enhanced Matte, Legion Matte (which is just as
poor quality cellulose) or some of the Red River papers, etc, you will
see the color that these prints will ultimately achieve, a warmish
yellowish off white. This is really not a bad way to quickly evaluate
a paper's base, look at the back. I've never seen a high quality
printmaking paper, coated or uncoated, made for any purpose that will
be significantly warmer on the back side than it is on front. 

I pretty much use Enanced Matt these days only for posters and
aligning my printer. It is easy to print on and the coating is nice
looking but I wouldn't send it to galleries.

John

Hello Kevin,

>You recommend Red River's Dourian and Aurora Art papers… Is it safe 
>to say that the yellowing problem is all but gone with these papers?

To the best of my knowledge these are both acid free papers and should
not have yellowing problems.


>Do you think that the Dourian Art is closer in texture and output to 
>EEM?

I wouldn't say that for texture.  It is a very close match in terms of
contrast, density and dmax.


 
>I'm printing about 50 – 100 images each month and filing them in 
>Itoya Art folders. Naturally, I want these images to look good 50+ 
>years from now.

Best to be certain these folders are acid free.


Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Well, they say that they are acid free. And for price and convenience 
they can't be beat (as far as I know):

http://www.artprofolio.com/Art_profolio.htm



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clayton Jones" 
<cj@...> wrote:
>
> Hello Kevin,
> 
> >You recommend Red River's Dourian and Aurora Art papers
 Is it 
safe 
> >to say that the yellowing problem is all but gone with these 
papers?
> 
> To the best of my knowledge these are both acid free papers and 
should
> not have yellowing problems.
> 
> 
> >Do you think that the Dourian Art is closer in texture and output 
to 
> >EEM?
> 
> I wouldn't say that for texture.  It is a very close match in terms 
of

> contrast, density and dmax.
> 
> 
>  
> >I'm printing about 50 – 100 images each month and filing them in 
> >Itoya Art folders. Naturally, I want these images to look good 50+ 
> >years from now.
> 
> Best to be certain these folders are acid free.
> 
> 
> Regards,
> Clayton
> 
> 
> Info on black and white digital printing at    
> http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
>

Well, thank John. 

What matte/art papers do you recommend for the 2400 and k3inks?

Price is a consideration for me.


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "john dean" 
<deanwork2003@...> wrote:
>
> Mark's right. Don't belive it. I have way too many Enhanced Matt
> proofs lying around that have yellowed in the border areas in just 5
> years when exposed to normal room light and indoor atmosphere.
> 
> Fact is, regardless of what Wilhelm says (and I for one never
> understood this rating and it bothers me that he says that), this 
is a
> low quality paper with a lot of obas to burn out. If you look at the
> back of a paper such as Enhanced Matte, Legion Matte (which is just 
as
> poor quality cellulose) or some of the Red River papers, etc, you 
will
> see the color that these prints will ultimately achieve, a warmish
> yellowish off white. This is really not a bad way to quickly 
evaluate
> a paper's base, look at the back. I've never seen a high quality
> printmaking paper, coated or uncoated, made for any purpose that 
will

> be significantly warmer on the back side than it is on front. 
> 
> I pretty much use Enanced Matt these days only for posters and
> aligning my printer. It is easy to print on and the coating is nice
> looking but I wouldn't send it to galleries.
> 
> John
>

I just checked EEM with the light impressions pH pen.  The front surface
you print on shows up a geeenish blue whereas the back side turns yellow.
The pH pen package shows yellow to be “high acid content”, green is “some
acid content”, and blue is “acid free”.  Good archival papers show blue on
both the front and back.  IMO it’s the acid content that is causing the
yellow like old newspapers which are pretty acidic due to the lignin
content.



I agree with Clayton – use EEM for proofing and not for prints that should
last for some time!  Use Velvet Fine Art for the good stuff with the same
tonal range as the EEM proofs.



My $0.02 worth.



Cheers,



TK



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

That is also my experience. It occured in only 3-4 days on EEM that
had been partly covered by other paper. You could see a distinct edge
between where it was covered and where it was not.

Regards
Duane




--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "robert49brake"
<robert49brake@...> wrote:
>
> I was working on setting up a color printer last week using EEM and
I was struck by the 
> visible yellowing in EEM in five days time.  I left a print out on a
desk where the only light is 
> from north facing windows.  I was printing the same image with some
modifications on a 
> fresh sheet of EEM from dark storage and before I could even look at
the image I was struck 
> by the difference in paper color in just those few days.  It was
dramatic enough that I had to 
> check that it was EEM on the first print (I'd been marking them as I
had a number of papers 
> out) and that I'd printed on the right side.  The yellowing showed
up most dramatically in the 
> evenings when the only light source was 5000k flourescent bulbs. 
With the 2400 and K3 inks 
> it would be a question of how much of your white is dependent on
paper white showing 
> through.
>

I had a new customer come in to my shop today that had wanted his prints on
that very BAD paper. I explained that I don't use it for this very reason;
IT yellows! I also pointed that out to the April print exchange group where
MANY of the prints were on that paper. Life is too short to make prints that
yellow in days. I use Red Rivers Polar matte and have yet to see it yellow. 

 

Happy printing

 

Eric   

 

Eric Neilsen Photography

4101 Commerce Street

Suite 9

Dallas, TX 75226

http://e.neilsen.home.att.net

http://ericneilsenphotography.com

 

  _____  

From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of dlruckus
Sent: Monday, August 14, 2006 7:29 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Epson Enhanced Matte & Turning Yellow?

 

That is also my experience. It occured in only 3-4 days on EEM that
had been partly covered by other paper. You could see a distinct edge
between where it was covered and where it was not.

Regards
Duane

--- In DigitalBlackandWhit
<mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint%40yahoogroups.com>
eThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "robert49brake"
<robert49brake@...> wrote:
>
> I was working on setting up a color printer last week using EEM and
I was struck by the 
> visible yellowing in EEM in five days time. I left a print out on a
desk where the only light is 
> from north facing windows. I was printing the same image with some
modifications on a 
> fresh sheet of EEM from dark storage and before I could even look at
the image I was struck 
> by the difference in paper color in just those few days. It was
dramatic enough that I had to 
> check that it was EEM on the first print (I'd been marking them as I
had a number of papers 
> out) and that I'd printed on the right side. The yellowing showed
up most dramatically in the 
> evenings when the only light source was 5000k flourescent bulbs. 
With the 2400 and K3 inks 
> it would be a question of how much of your white is dependent on
paper white showing 
> through.
>

 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Eric

Are you using the Polar Matte for proofing or some good stuff too?

I've used the Polar Matte in the past and I thought it was good, too.

Have you ever tried the Red River Aurora Art? I'm using it for the "good stuff" (double 
sided) and I find it nice, but I wish it were as smooth as the EEM. 

The sad truth is that I have to do some color work for my wife's scrapbooking, and I find 
that the Aurora Art just doesn't look as nice as the EEM. Maybe the Polar Matte would be a 
good choice for color scrapbooking images?



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Eric Neilsen" <e.neilsen2@...> 
wrote:

>
> I had a new customer come in to my shop today that had wanted his prints on
> that very BAD paper. I explained that I don't use it for this very reason;
> IT yellows! I also pointed that out to the April print exchange group where
> MANY of the prints were on that paper. Life is too short to make prints that
> yellow in days. I use Red Rivers Polar matte and have yet to see it yellow. 
> 
>  
> 
> Happy printing
> 
>  
> 
> Eric   
> 
>

Kevin, I use polar matte as a proofing paper. I have made calendars with it
and while that looked quite nice, I hardly expect to see them framed on
someone's wall. : ) 

 

I picked up some Aurora last time I stopped in to Red River. I am lucky to
have them close by to avoid shipping charges. I don't know why it doesn't
look as nice for you. Perhaps, you can try a little more sharpening or more
color saturation. I used it to test a digital capture that I made with a
friend's D1X of a butterfly that my daughter had found on our passion vines;
a magnet for butterflies and their eggs. 

 

I have not yet put it to any great tests for its double sided abilities.

Polar matte does stand up well to abrasion but no double sided printing. 

 

Eric 

 

Eric Neilsen Photography

4101 Commerce Street

Suite 9

Dallas, TX 75226

http://e.neilsen.home.att.net

http://ericneilsenphotography.com

 

  _____  

From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Kevin
Sent: Monday, August 14, 2006 8:54 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Epson Enhanced Matte & Turning Yellow?

 

Eric

Are you using the Polar Matte for proofing or some good stuff too?

I've used the Polar Matte in the past and I thought it was good, too.

Have you ever tried the Red River Aurora Art? I'm using it for the "good
stuff" (double 
sided) and I find it nice, but I wish it were as smooth as the EEM. 

The sad truth is that I have to do some color work for my wife's
scrapbooking, and I find 
that the Aurora Art just doesn't look as nice as the EEM. Maybe the Polar
Matte would be a 
good choice for color scrapbooking images?

--- In DigitalBlackandWhit
<mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint%40yahoogroups.com>
eThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Eric Neilsen" <e.neilsen2@...> 
wrote:
>
> I had a new customer come in to my shop today that had wanted his prints
on
> that very BAD paper. I explained that I don't use it for this very reason;
> IT yellows! I also pointed that out to the April print exchange group
where
> MANY of the prints were on that paper. Life is too short to make prints
that
> yellow in days. I use Red Rivers Polar matte and have yet to see it
yellow. 
> 
> 
> 
> Happy printing
> 
> 
> 
> Eric 
> 
> 

 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

tonight i tried some Aurora test color image using Epson EEM profile instead of the Red 
River profile for Aurora, and it actually printed w/ slightly richer, more saturated color.

i've had the 2400 for only a few days now and i'm very happy w/ the B&W, somewhat 
happy w/ the color.

by the way, Aurora w/ B&W is also slightly less saturated than w/ EEM. if i didn't have EEM 
for proofing i would probably never know the difference.

do you know a way that i can bump up saturation just a tad (ever so slight) at the printing 
source, rather than in CS2?

at the moment i'm using Clayton's easy B&W printing method for the 2400.

thanks for your feedback eric.

kevin

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Eric Neilsen" <e.neilsen2@...> 
wrote:

>
> Kevin, I use polar matte as a proofing paper. I have made calendars with it
> and while that looked quite nice, I hardly expect to see them framed on
> someone's wall. : ) 
> 
>  
> 
> I picked up some Aurora last time I stopped in to Red River. I am lucky to
> have them close by to avoid shipping charges. I don't know why it doesn't
> look as nice for you. Perhaps, you can try a little more sharpening or more
> color saturation. I used it to test a digital capture that I made with a
> friend's D1X of a butterfly that my daughter had found on our passion vines;
> a magnet for butterflies and their eggs. 
> 
>  
> 
> I have not yet put it to any great tests for its double sided abilities.
> 
> Polar matte does stand up well to abrasion but no double sided printing. 
> 
>  
> 
> Eric 
> 
>  
>

You question is good. I don't know of a lot of inexpensive quality
papers out there.


I've settled on Innova Smooth Cotton for "matte" work. It is 100% rag
and reasonable in price and has a very smooth and durable finish. The
Epson UltraSmooth is also a very good matte paper but with no obas at
all, it is more expensive but very high quality. It is outstanding for
color gamut and sharpness but the hues for black and white work can
come up cold and strange. That depends on your inkset.

I don't really test a lot of papers anymore. Would love to hear what
people are playing with these days. With the cost of my time and the
cost of ink and the wear and tear on the machines I wouldn't want to
fool around with something that I'm not fairly sure of. I did use the
Innova Fiba Print paper in place of EEMatte for awhile (before that
Legion Matt that isn't any better) and found it nice looking. I
wouldn't call it any more archival though. I had a batch of that that
couldn't hold dense blacks without motteling. That scared me off,
along with the fact that it was almost as expensive as much better
papers and I found it scratched very easily before outputting and
drying. In short, I was disappointed with it. Others may disagree
completely.

John

Has anyone tried Hawk Mountains's papers?  They are 100% cotton and 
acid-free.  Clayton identified three of their papers as category A 
papers.  I just printed a UT2 inkset print on their Peregrine Velvet 
250 and compared it to HPR.  I used QTR's EEM curves and the Peregrine 
had sharper details than HPR printed with the HPR curves.  The paper 
is ever so slightly cooler than HPR.  But it's major advantage to me 
is that it is significantly cheaper than HPR.  Their website is 
http://www.hawkmtnartpapers.com/.  They have a $20 sample pack and a 
free swatch book.  (I am not affiliated with them, just like the 
papers I've tried so far.)

Bob Marsolais

It seems to me that EEM just turns as yellow (or cream color) as 
Epson UltraSmooth is to start with.  The only problem is when I try 
to ship prints from inventory that are a bit more yellow than the 
fresh prints off the roll. (Not much inventory, though, unless I'm 
printing 16x20s and put 2 8x10s next to it.)  Although I only notice 
it in the margin, not in the image itself. By itself, the yellower 
print is not a problem to my eye - only in comparison.  Although EUS 
is yellow in the image, too - so much so that tinting using 
ImagePrint is not really acceptable, but I don't do enough EUS to try 
to work out the kinks - i.e. find the right tint settings.

I'm going through a 100' roll a week on my 7600, and at $0.05 per 
inch (24" wide), I don't know of any reasonably priced alternative - 
nor would I be temped to try one.  I'm printing for the retail 
market - i.e. 8x10 for $20, 11x14 for $30, up to 24x30 for $100 - all 
B&W, using ImagePrint gray profiles, and gold tone (50,50), rose tone 
(75,100), or blue tone (20,20) - Aubrey Bodine's favorite toning 
other than sepia which he used for Salon exhibition prints.  And all 
in all EEM is a heck of a lot better than the fading that happened on 
the 1280 using BO with OEM dye inks on Epson HeavyWeight Matte that I 
had the first two years in business.

Anybody see our 1/4 page ad in B&W Magazine this month?

What, specifically, are you doing for the retail business? Is this 
original photography, or are you just printing for them?

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Orban" 
<ro@...> wrote:
>
> It seems to me that EEM just turns as yellow (or cream color) as 
> Epson UltraSmooth is to start with.  The only problem is when I try 
> to ship prints from inventory that are a bit more yellow than the 
> fresh prints off the roll. (Not much inventory, though, unless I'm 
> printing 16x20s and put 2 8x10s next to it.)  Although I only 
notice 
> it in the margin, not in the image itself. By itself, the yellower 
> print is not a problem to my eye - only in comparison.  Although 
EUS 
> is yellow in the image, too - so much so that tinting using 
> ImagePrint is not really acceptable, but I don't do enough EUS to 
try 
> to work out the kinks - i.e. find the right tint settings.
> 
> I'm going through a 100' roll a week on my 7600, and at $0.05 per 
> inch (24" wide), I don't know of any reasonably priced alternative -
 
> nor would I be temped to try one.  I'm printing for the retail 
> market - i.e. 8x10 for $20, 11x14 for $30, up to 24x30 for $100 - 
all 
> B&W, using ImagePrint gray profiles, and gold tone (50,50), rose 
tone 
> (75,100), or blue tone (20,20) - Aubrey Bodine's favorite toning 
> other than sepia which he used for Salon exhibition prints.  And 
all 
> in all EEM is a heck of a lot better than the fading that happened 
on 
> the 1280 using BO with OEM dye inks on Epson HeavyWeight Matte that 
I 

> had the first two years in business.
> 
> Anybody see our 1/4 page ad in B&W Magazine this month?
>

Hi -

Our website is www.AAubreyBodine.com.  We sell note cards, matted 
note cards, and "reprints" of any of the A. Aubrey Bodine photographs 
in our collection on EEM, EUS and Primere Art Canvas.  There are 4000 
iamges posted on the website and another 8000 scanned but not posted 
yet.  We have about 120 retail locations carrying our cards and 
reprints.  We do about 1/3 of our sales direct via the website or 
phone.  That's what I meant by retail sales.

Although since our note card business has exploded - doing 1500 per 
week these days - I'm anticipating getting an HP Indigo 1050 digital 
press to take that printing back inhouse - mainly to control the 
schedule.  We've had about 35,000 note cards outsourced to a local 
print shop that has a Indigo Platinum (early generation 1050).  So 
I'm planning to do short run printing for other photographers - note 
cards and calendars - where "short run" means 250 note cards - either 
250 copies of one image or two copies of 125 images.  Seems to me 
this business model has escaped the notice of the entire print shop 
world.  Most print shops still think "offset press" and haven't 
adapted to digital offset yet.  Why in the world do they still price 
based on number of copies?  It's digital for heavens sake, every page 
can be different - at 4000 pages per hour.  They just don't get it.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Kevin" 
<vinket@...> wrote:
>
> What, specifically, are you doing for the retail business? Is this 
> original photography, or are you just printing for them?
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Richard 
Orban" 
> <ro@> wrote:
> > ... snip ...
  I'm printing for the retail 
> > market - i.e. 8x10 for $20, 11x14 for $30, up to 24x30 for $100 - 
> all 
> > B&W, using ImagePrint gray profiles, and gold tone (50,50), rose 
> tone 
> > (75,100), or blue tone (20,20) - Aubrey Bodine's favorite toning 
> > other than sepia which he used for Salon exhibition prints. 
... snip ...
> > Anybody see our 1/4 page ad in B&W Magazine this month?

Hey Bob

I might give Hawk Mountain a try as soon as I've saved some money and 
actually use up my current batch of paper. I've dropped a significant 
amount of money in past week on the new printer and additional inks.

In the meantime I've just figure out that Red River Aurora Art is 
nearly as economical as EEM for proofing. 

Fact is, RR's Aurora Art is only $0.51 per sheet. That it's double 
sided means it comes in at only $0.255 per side.

The one-sided EEM is $0.23 per sheet.

I already use the RR Aurora Art as my primary paper, so it just makes 
sense to use it for proofing, too. Also, most proofs turn out nice 
enough to file in a photo album or give away to family and friends. 
Those proofs might as well be on the better paper.

Kevin

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Marsolais" 
<bob@...> wrote:
>
> Has anyone tried Hawk Mountains's papers?  They are 100% cotton and 
> acid-free.  Clayton identified three of their papers as category A 
> papers.  I just printed a UT2 inkset print on their Peregrine 
Velvet 
> 250 and compared it to HPR.  I used QTR's EEM curves and the 
Peregrine 
> had sharper details than HPR printed with the HPR curves.  The 
paper 
> is ever so slightly cooler than HPR.  But it's major advantage to 
me 
> is that it is significantly cheaper than HPR.  Their website is 
> http://www.hawkmtnartpapers.com/.  They have a $20 sample pack and 
a 

> free swatch book.  (I am not affiliated with them, just like the 
> papers I've tried so far.)
> 
> Bob Marsolais
>

Very interesting, indeed. Does Jennifer still maintain the rights to 
the photographs?

Also, do you do your own photography and priting outside the business?

If so, then what kind of printer and paper are you using for your 
personal stuff?

 

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Orban" 
<ro@...> wrote:
>
> Hi -
> 
> Our website is www.AAubreyBodine.com.  We sell note cards, matted 
> note cards, and "reprints" of any of the A. Aubrey Bodine 
photographs 
> in our collection on EEM, EUS and Primere Art Canvas.  There are 
4000 
> iamges posted on the website and another 8000 scanned but not 
posted 
> yet.  We have about 120 retail locations carrying our cards and 
> reprints.  We do about 1/3 of our sales direct via the website or 
> phone.  That's what I meant by retail sales.
> 
> Although since our note card business has exploded - doing 1500 per 
> week these days - I'm anticipating getting an HP Indigo 1050 
digital 
> press to take that printing back inhouse - mainly to control the 
> schedule.  We've had about 35,000 note cards outsourced to a local 
> print shop that has a Indigo Platinum (early generation 1050).  So 
> I'm planning to do short run printing for other photographers - 
note 
> cards and calendars - where "short run" means 250 note cards - 
either 
> 250 copies of one image or two copies of 125 images.  Seems to me 
> this business model has escaped the notice of the entire print shop 
> world.  Most print shops still think "offset press" and haven't 
> adapted to digital offset yet.  Why in the world do they still 
price 
> based on number of copies?  It's digital for heavens sake, every 
page 
> can be different - at 4000 pages per hour.  They just don't get it.
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Kevin" 
> <vinket@> wrote:
> >
> > What, specifically, are you doing for the retail business? Is 
this 
> > original photography, or are you just printing for them?
> > 
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Richard 
> Orban" 
> > <ro@> wrote:
> > > ... snip ...
>   I'm printing for the retail 
> > > market - i.e. 8x10 for $20, 11x14 for $30, up to 24x30 for 
$100 - 
> > all 
> > > B&W, using ImagePrint gray profiles, and gold tone (50,50), 
rose 
> > tone 
> > > (75,100), or blue tone (20,20) - Aubrey Bodine's favorite 
toning 

> > > other than sepia which he used for Salon exhibition prints. 
> ... snip ...
> > > Anybody see our 1/4 page ad in B&W Magazine this month?
>

Premier Matte rolls are about the same price as EEM, and it's acid free.  On
some printers it actually matches H. Photo Rag dmax.  See
http://www.photowarehouse.biz/premier.html

EEM has about the same pH as vinegar according to one Epson rep I spoke
with.  Not only does the paper yellow, but the pigments in it are also
discolored more than those on a non-acidic surface.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

OK, thank you.

What do you think of Red River Aurora Art (white & natural)papers? 

These are economical enough that I could use it for proofing, too.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@...> wrote:
>
> Premier Matte rolls are about the same price as EEM, and it's acid 
free.  On
> some printers it actually matches H. Photo Rag dmax.  See
> http://www.photowarehouse.biz/premier.html
> 
> EEM has about the same pH as vinegar according to one Epson rep I 
spoke

> with.  Not only does the paper yellow, but the pigments in it are also
> discolored more than those on a non-acidic surface.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>

I'm not familiar with that paper.  I get a lot of paper samples and discard
those that don't reach a dmax of 1.6.  That, unfortunately, includes a lot
of papers, but I can't say that one you've named is one of them.

 

Paul

www.PaulRoark.com <http://www.paulroark.com/>  

 

 

  _____  

From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Kevin
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2006 12:48 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Epson Enhanced Matte & Turning Yellow?

 

OK, thank you.

What do you think of Red River Aurora Art (white & natural)papers? 

These are economical enough that I could use it for proofing, too.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhit
<mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint%40yahoogroups.com>
eThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@...> wrote:
>
> Premier Matte rolls are about the same price as EEM, and it's acid 
free. On
> some printers it actually matches H. Photo Rag dmax. See
> http://www.photowar <http://www.photowarehouse.biz/premier.html>
ehouse.biz/premier.html
> 
> EEM has about the same pH as vinegar according to one Epson rep I 
spoke
> with. Not only does the paper yellow, but the pigments in it are also
> discolored more than those on a non-acidic surface.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>

 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Per Clayton Jones, the Dmax is d4
http://www.cjcom.net/articles/digiprn5.htm

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@...> wrote:
>
> I'm not familiar with that paper.  I get a lot of paper samples and 
discard
> those that don't reach a dmax of 1.6.  That, unfortunately, includes 
a lot

> of papers, but I can't say that one you've named is one of them.
> 
>  
> 
> Paul
> 
> www.PaulRoark.com <http://www.paulroark.com/>  
> 
>

Hello Richard,

>Our website is www.AAubreyBodine.com.  We sell note cards, matted 
>note cards, and "reprints" of any of the A. Aubrey Bodine 
>photographs in our collection on EEM, EUS and Primere Art Canvas.  
>There are 4000 iamges posted on the website and another 8000 scanned 
>but not posted yet.  

I really like his work.  I stumbled on your web site last winter and
spent a good deal of time there late at night.  So many outstanding
photos.  What a wonderful life for a photographer, to have access to
such rich subject matter.


>I'm planning to do short run printing for other photographers - note 
>cards and calendars - where "short run" means 250 note cards - either 
>250 copies of one image or two copies of 125 images.  Seems to me 
>this business model has escaped the notice of the entire print shop 
>world.  

Sounds like a good idea.   Can you let us know when you're up and
running?  I may be able to steer some business your way.


Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Yes, the copyrights passed to Jennifer after her parents death.

And, although my own father was a professional photographer 
(commercial), and I pursued photography throughout high schoool as a 
photojournalist (and logged a lot of hours in the darkroom), I am a 
computer geek (for the last 41 years).  I've seen lots of Kodak papers 
and prints fade over the years, I'm quite satisfied with Epson's (and 
ImpagePrint's) products for all the photographic printing I do.  
Aubrey's grand daughter, our child, is (I think) photographically 
gifted, too. And I've printed some of her works on the 7600.  But the 
business is pretty much all-consuming.  I (as a technologist) am 
absolutely flabergasted by the power of art - to move people, to create 
a market, to generate sales.  I am seriously gettting active to promote 
art in our public schools.  It is so important!  I spend all my time 
with the AAubreyBodine.com business.  The history aspect alone is all 
consuming.  I learned a lot that could be of value to a lot of people.  
I'm happy to share.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Kevin" 
<vinket@...> wrote:

>
> Very interesting, indeed. Does Jennifer still maintain the rights to 
> the photographs?
> 
> Also, do you do your own photography and priting outside the business?
> 
> If so, then what kind of printer and paper are you using for your 
> personal stuff?
> 
>

Thank-you so much for your kind comments and offer.  I have the 
domain: ShortRunArtPrinting.com, but I don't have the digital press 
yet.  And, believe you me, the Indigo is not your typical desktop 
Epson.  I've watched "my" pressman work on his Indigo and it's pure 
artistry in motion.  And the results he gets are spectacular.  It's 
basically BO, so there are streaks and splotches, but for $2.50 
(retail) for a card, it is a knockout.  I'm drooling over trying 
duotone or quadtone, and for high volume, superior quality glossy 
note cards --- oh my, what a press. And for short run calendars and 
post cards.  Here's the thing - a press like this wants to work - 
it's like my 7600, it can tolerate an idle day or two, but if I can 
work it every day for at least an hour it is so happy and trouble 
free.  The Indigo likewise should be worked 6 hours a day.  And I 
don't have the volume yet, so that's the motivation for 
ShortRunArtPrinting.com.  It appears to me from the limited searches 
I've done that no other printers have this business model.  Their 
short runs are too long.  I see lots of up-side to this business 
model.

Ain't life grand?!

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clayton Jones" 
<cj@...> wrote:
>
> Hello Richard,
> 
> >Our website is www.AAubreyBodine.com.  We sell note cards, matted 
> >note cards, and "reprints" of any of the A. Aubrey Bodine 
> >photographs in our collection on EEM, EUS and Primere Art Canvas.  
> >There are 4000 iamges posted on the website and another 8000 
scanned 
> >but not posted yet.  
> 
> I really like his work.  I stumbled on your web site last winter and
> spent a good deal of time there late at night.  So many outstanding
> photos.  What a wonderful life for a photographer, to have access to
> such rich subject matter.
> 
> 
> >I'm planning to do short run printing for other photographers - 
note 
> >cards and calendars - where "short run" means 250 note cards - 
either 
> >250 copies of one image or two copies of 125 images.  Seems to me 
> >this business model has escaped the notice of the entire print 
shop 

> >world.  
> 
> Sounds like a good idea.   Can you let us know when you're up and
> running?  I may be able to steer some business your way.
> 
> 
> Regards,
> Clayton
> 
> 
> Info on black and white digital printing at    
> http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
>

Hello Kevin,

>I already use the RR Aurora Art as my primary paper, so it just 
>makes sense to use it for proofing, too. Also, most proofs turn 
>out nice enough to file in a photo album or give away to family 
>and friends. 
> Those proofs might as well be on the better paper.


These are valid points, but there are some other things you might want
to consider.  The contrast and density curves of EEM are close to what
seems like an average for many matte papers, and it also happens to be
such that it's fairly easy to achieve good WYSIWYG using the standard
options for the image and printer profiles (I don't think this is an
accident, I think the papers are designed that way).  Therefore using
EEM for proofing has some advantages:

- Good WYSIWYG, which means faster and more efficient work

- Any image proofed on EEM will print to a wider range of papers
without requiring major tweaking  (these are some of the reasons why
the simple workflows can be so effective)

- EEM is widely available in office supply stores and online.


It so happens that Aurora Art's contrast and density are different
enough from the average that a considerable adjustment curve is
required for both density and contrast when the image is proofed on
EEM.  You are right that proofing on the same paper as the final
prints is efficient, however you may be "painting yourself into a
corner" so to speak, if you ever want to print on other papers.

When you work up and proof an image, the image is largly adapted to
the proof paper.  If the images are proofed to Aurora, they may be
more difficult to print on other papers.  One of the reasons EEM is so
well liked as proof paper is because it is pretty much dead center in
the mainstream of contrast and density.  This insures that the images
are closer to what might be considered a standard.  Aurora is pretty
far away from that.

As you gain more experience it is likely the urge to try other papers
will rear it's head, and someday you might find one you like better. 
It would be a shame to discover that many images proofed on Aurora
will not print well on other papers.  

All of my images, going back over four years and across as many
printers, were all proofed on EEM using the same mainstream settings.
They can all be printed easily with either of my current printers
with a minimum of tweaking required.  Printers, inks and papers come
and go over time.  But I'm secure about that because all the
images are uniformly proofed.  I was ill at ease when I first got the
2400 last year, a completely different system.  But I was delighted to
find that almost all of my images printed as is, requiring little if
any adjustments.

If you really want to proof and print on the same paper, IMO Dourian
Art would be a better choice.  It is also 2-sided, and is very close,
nearly identical, to EEM in contrast and density.  It also has better
dmax than Aurora.  Dourian is a dead ringer for PhotoRag, arguably the
most popular mainstream paper that has set the standard for years.

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Kevin,

>Per Clayton Jones, the Dmax is d4

As explained in the article, that grading system is relative.  It's
purpose is to give a general idea how the various papers compare with
each other.  I don't have a densitometer and so can't give accurate
dmax figures.  I'm pretty sure that Aurora's dmax is less than the 1.6
cutoff that Paul uses.  Dourian Art, on the other hand (see my other
reply just posted re proof papers) is the same as Photo Rag, at the
upper end of dmax ratings.

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Kevin,

 

The standard readouts from densitometers and spectrophotometers are density
or Lab lightness readings.  I don't know how Clayton's ratings compare.  My
1.60 density cut-off point (must be more than 1.6 or less than Lab L=18) is
what I determined I'd use as a filter to cut through the huge number of
papers.  Others may really like the look of papers with less than this, but
as much for time savings as aesthetic reasons, I apply the 1.6 filter to
eliminate papers from my consideration. 

 

Paul

www.PaulRoark.com <http://www.paulroark.com/>  

 

  _____  

From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Kevin
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2006 1:43 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Epson Enhanced Matte & Turning Yellow?

 

Per Clayton Jones, the Dmax is d4
http://www.cjcom. <http://www.cjcom.net/articles/digiprn5.htm>
net/articles/digiprn5.htm

--- In DigitalBlackandWhit
<mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint%40yahoogroups.com>
eThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@...> wrote:
>
> I'm not familiar with that paper. I get a lot of paper samples and 
discard
> those that don't reach a dmax of 1.6. That, unfortunately, includes 
a lot
> of papers, but I can't say that one you've named is one of them.
> 
> 
> 
> Paul
> 
> www.PaulRoark.com <http://www.paulroar <http://www.paulroark.com/> k.com/>

> 
> 

 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thanks Clayton

I've used a box of the Dourian, and you are right...the dmax was better. But printing 50+ 
images per month! That's a minimum $63.00 for a Box of 50. But I suppose that's less 
than PR.

If memory serves me, I think that the Dorian was a bit smoother on the surface and results 
were closer to EEM proof. 


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clayton Jones" <cj@...> wrote:

> 
> If you really want to proof and print on the same paper, IMO Dourian
> Art would be a better choice.  It is also 2-sided, and is very close,
> nearly identical, to EEM in contrast and density.  It also has better
> dmax than Aurora.  Dourian is a dead ringer for PhotoRag, arguably the
> most popular mainstream paper that has set the standard for years.
> 
> Regards,
> Clayton
> 
> 
> Info on black and white digital printing at    
> http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
>

Thanks for the Clarification.


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clayton Jones" <cj@...> wrote:

>
> Kevin,
> 
> >Per Clayton Jones, the Dmax is d4
> 
> As explained in the article, that grading system is relative.  It's
> purpose is to give a general idea how the various papers compare with
> each other.  I don't have a densitometer and so can't give accurate
> dmax figures.  I'm pretty sure that Aurora's dmax is less than the 1.6
> cutoff that Paul uses.  Dourian Art, on the other hand (see my other
> reply just posted re proof papers) is the same as Photo Rag, at the
> upper end of dmax ratings.
> 
> Regards,
> Clayton
> 
> 
> Info on black and white digital printing at    
> http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
>

Clayton, I may be missing some of this thread, but are you seeing yellowing
of EEM? 

 

Eric Neilsen Photography

4101 Commerce Street

Suite 9

Dallas, TX 75226

http://e.neilsen.home.att.net

http://ericneilsenphotography.com

 

  _____  

From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Clayton
Jones
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2006 6:40 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Epson Enhanced Matte & Turning Yellow?

 

Kevin,

>Per Clayton Jones, the Dmax is d4

As explained in the article, that grading system is relative. It's
purpose is to give a general idea how the various papers compare with
each other. I don't have a densitometer and so can't give accurate
dmax figures. I'm pretty sure that Aurora's dmax is less than the 1.6
cutoff that Paul uses. Dourian Art, on the other hand (see my other
reply just posted re proof papers) is the same as Photo Rag, at the
upper end of dmax ratings.

Regards,
Clayton

Info on black and white digital printing at 
http://www.cjcom. <http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm> net/digiprnarts.htm

 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Eric Neilsen"
<e.neilsen2@...> wrote:
>
> Clayton, I may be missing some of this thread, but are you seeing
yellowing
> of EEM? 
> 
>  
> 


This is the spectral response of EEM paper white after about 2 weeks
exposure to sun. It gets more yellow as it gets older.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v329/Greg_E/EEMfade.gif

I don't know how it changes in printed areas, I've never really used
that paper because it has way too much brightener in for my tastes(the
hump at the blue end)!

Hello Eric,

>Clayton, I may be missing some of this thread, but are you seeing 
>yellowing of EEM? 

Yes, this is well established.  It is not an acid free paper.  If you
have some interest in this, just reading all of this thread will touch
on most of the issues about it (user reports, acidity tests, etc).

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

I have known about the yellowing problem for years. I didn't get into the
specific pH issues, but knew to stay away from it for final prints. I
thought that I read that you used it to proof? If so, why? While proofs
don't need to serve a purpose past a few days, I'd prefer not to be able to
refer back to it even months later. 

 

I'll post it again here but I have also seen mounted Photo Rag prints get
REALLY yellow. Before we knew better, I was at a portrait studio that was
making books. The prints were bound in leather. Later the prints were also
offered for sale like the silver gelatin prints. Those dry mounted with
color mount type tissue turn an intense shade of yellow. That is when I
realized that these ink jet papers were going to be a problem. By then I had
already seen the EEM turn yellow and that was just from sitting there. 

 

I have had long conversations with Hahnemuhle reps about the issues. I am
quite amazed that more of the paper doesn't turn red seeing how many people
are out here on the cutting edge : )  

 

 

 

 

Eric Neilsen Photography

4101 Commerce Street

Suite 9

Dallas, TX 75226

http://e.neilsen.home.att.net

http://ericneilsenphotography.com

 

  _____  

From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Clayton
Jones
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2006 11:52 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Epson Enhanced Matte & Turning Yellow?

 

Hello Eric,

>Clayton, I may be missing some of this thread, but are you seeing 
>yellowing of EEM? 

Yes, this is well established. It is not an acid free paper. If you
have some interest in this, just reading all of this thread will touch
on most of the issues about it (user reports, acidity tests, etc).

Regards,
Clayton

Info on black and white digital printing at 
http://www.cjcom. <http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm> net/digiprnarts.htm

 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Eric Neilsen" 
<e.neilsen2@...> wrote:
>  
> 
> I'll post it again here but I have also seen mounted Photo Rag 
prints get
> REALLY yellow. Before we knew better, I was at a portrait studio 
that was
> making books. The prints were bound in leather. Later the prints 
were also
> offered for sale like the silver gelatin prints. Those dry mounted 
with
> color mount type tissue turn an intense shade of yellow. That is 
when I
> realized that these ink jet papers were going to be a problem.

It all depends on the adhesive used. Also certain plasticizers will 
turn the papers yellow. I've only seen this with German Etching when 
I get down to the end of the roll where it is taped. And that was on 
a partial roll that I found in storage, it was about 5 years old at 
the time, and was only yellow where the adhesive was attached to the 
paper.

Greg, It is more than just adhesives to be concerned about. Anything that
can come in contact with the paper that has a pH much different than the
paper/coating is going to alter its appearance. I have seen that same yellow
mark on PhotoRag at the end of the rolls but I don't recall seeing it
lately. 

 

Eric Neilsen Photography

4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9

Dallas, TX 75226

214-827-8301

http://ericneilsenphotography.com

 

Skype : ejprinter

  _____  

From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Greg
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2006 10:20 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Epson Enhanced Matte & Turning Yellow?

 

--- In DigitalBlackandWhit
<mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint%40yahoogroups.com>
eThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Eric Neilsen" 
<e.neilsen2@...> wrote:
> 
> 
> I'll post it again here but I have also seen mounted Photo Rag 
prints get
> REALLY yellow. Before we knew better, I was at a portrait studio 
that was
> making books. The prints were bound in leather. Later the prints 
were also
> offered for sale like the silver gelatin prints. Those dry mounted 
with
> color mount type tissue turn an intense shade of yellow. That is 
when I
> realized that these ink jet papers were going to be a problem.

It all depends on the adhesive used. Also certain plasticizers will 
turn the papers yellow. I've only seen this with German Etching when 
I get down to the end of the roll where it is taped. And that was on 
a partial roll that I found in storage, it was about 5 years old at 
the time, and was only yellow where the adhesive was attached to the 
paper.

 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Eric Neilsen 
Photo " <e.neilsen2@...> wrote:
>
> Greg, It is more than just adhesives to be concerned about. Anything 
that
> can come in contact with the paper that has a pH much different than 
the
> paper/coating is going to alter its appearance. I have seen that same 
yellow
> mark on PhotoRag at the end of the rolls but I don't recall seeing it
> lately. 


I can tell you that after 3 years black TecNec gaffer tape has caused 
no damage to the German Etching hanging on the concrete block wall in 
my office at work ;-]

Hello Eric,

>I thought that I read that you used it to proof? If so, why? 

Because:
1) it's cheap
2) it is available everywhere, even in local stores, and is often on
sale whereupon I buy several boxes at a time
3) it has excellent dmax and shadow separation and is all around a
very good looking paper, equal in appearance to some of the best
archival papers, so it's a good paper on which to judge the image
during proofing.
4) it's contrast and density are dead center in the average of many of
the best papers.  
5) This means after an image is worked up it can be printed on many
other papers with minor adjustments, if any (Photo Rag, Dourian, VFA
and Kayenta in particular are closely matched).
6) it also means it's easy to get good WYSIWYG using the simple workflows
7) it also means the work over all is quicker and more efficient
8) because it's made by Epson and is ubiquitous and, seems to me,
there's a very good chance it will be around for the long haul and I
can count on it being available.

Great stuff.

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

For people who use pigment inks (i.e., waterproof) there is a sort of 
funky way to de-acidify EEM which actually works like a charm.  Namely, 
after printing the image immerse the paper in a solution of water and 
baking soda.  The exact concentration of sodium bicarbonate is not 
critical - a teaspoon of Arm & Hammer baking soda per gallon of water 
will do nicely.  (For non-cooks this benign chemical can be found in 
the baking supplies section of the supermarket.) The immersion time and 
the temperature of the water are not critical, either.  One minute at 
room temperature is fine.

   The trickiest part, and even this is not difficult, is carefully 
removing the paper from the water so it does not tear - EEM does not 
have the wet strength of silver gelatin photo papers.  The larger the 
paper the more care is needed.  8x10 sheets can be hung on a line to 
dry. 13x19 sheets are better put on a drying screen. Blotting them is a 
good idea if you have blotting paper.

   The dried paper will have some waviness but not nearly as much curl 
as air-dried fiber-based silver gelatin paper. This is the reason to 
de-acidify last - it's probably not a good idea to run wavy paper 
through your printer.  If you hot mount the print the waviness gets 
flattened, of course.  I expected a residue of white baking soda on the 
print but none is visible.  In any case you can give the surface a 
clean water rinse before drying to avoid residue. To verify that you 
are causing no harm dip and dry half a test print and compare.

   After this process the Light Impressions ph testing pen on EEM 
(front, back, and core) shows not merely blue, meaning no acid, but a 
brilliant blue characteristic of highly buffered paper.

    Loren Cambello

This is interesting and I might try it a couple of times. But as a father of three young kids 
I'm wondering if it's even worth the time? Fact is, i don't do any dry mounting. My prints 
are mostly filed in Itoya Art Portfolio folders and/or framed in a very simplistic fashion 
using some nice Light Impressions matte and Nielsen black aluminum frames.

This about all I have time for so I need a convenient workflow that yields above average 
results.

As I slowly learn more about inkjet printing w/ the new 2400 I will experiment with 
different papers. For now,  I'm getting what I'd consider to be good, archival prints w/ Red 
River Aurora Art paper.

Now the color that my wife insists on is really kicking my butt and the results aren't nearly 
so predictable.

Thanks for sharing your trick. In the meantime, I set two test prints in the window seal. 
One on EEM and the other on Aurora Art.





--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Laurence Campbell 
<basecamp@...> wrote:

>
>    For people who use pigment inks (i.e., waterproof) there is a sort of 
> funky way to de-acidify EEM which actually works like a charm.  Namely, 
> after printing the image immerse the paper in a solution of water and 
> baking soda.  The exact concentration of sodium bicarbonate is not 
> critical - a teaspoon of Arm & Hammer baking soda per gallon of water 
> will do nicely.  (For non-cooks this benign chemical can be found in 
> the baking supplies section of the supermarket.) The immersion time and 
> the temperature of the water are not critical, either.  One minute at 
> room temperature is fine.
> 
>    The trickiest part, and even this is not difficult, is carefully 
> removing the paper from the water so it does not tear - EEM does not 
> have the wet strength of silver gelatin photo papers.  The larger the 
> paper the more care is needed.  8x10 sheets can be hung on a line to 
> dry. 13x19 sheets are better put on a drying screen. Blotting them is a 
> good idea if you have blotting paper.
> 
>    The dried paper will have some waviness but not nearly as much curl 
> as air-dried fiber-based silver gelatin paper. This is the reason to 
> de-acidify last - it's probably not a good idea to run wavy paper 
> through your printer.  If you hot mount the print the waviness gets 
> flattened, of course.  I expected a residue of white baking soda on the 
> print but none is visible.  In any case you can give the surface a 
> clean water rinse before drying to avoid residue. To verify that you 
> are causing no harm dip and dry half a test print and compare.
> 
>    After this process the Light Impressions ph testing pen on EEM 
> (front, back, and core) shows not merely blue, meaning no acid, but a 
> brilliant blue characteristic of highly buffered paper.
> 
>     Loren Cambello
>

Hello Clayton,

Actually, that Dorian Art paper you mentioned here is what you printed
the samples on, that you sent me. I do like it... but it's a tad warm
for what I want to do now. It is very reminscent of Agfa Provira wet
darkroom paper, of which I still have a few boxes. So I do like that
look for some applications but wondering what you'd suggest for
something cooler. I've read your "Great Paper Chase" and the Condor BW
looks good.

I should add, btw, that I'm a convert to your BO printing... just
loaded up the driver for my new R220 and so far looking good. Once I
load an MIS black (Eboni or Black) cartridge in the black slot, can I
leave my OME color carts where they are for when I want to do color
prints? Will they be happy with this black cartridge "intruder"?

Thanks to you and Paul for all you do,

Paul

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clayton Jones"
<cj@...> wrote:

>
> Hello Kevin,
> 
> >I already use the RR Aurora Art as my primary paper, so it just 
> >makes sense to use it for proofing, too. Also, most proofs turn 
> >out nice enough to file in a photo album or give away to family 
> >and friends. 
> > Those proofs might as well be on the better paper.
> 
> 
> These are valid points, but there are some other things you might want
> to consider.  The contrast and density curves of EEM are close to what
> seems like an average for many matte papers, and it also happens to be
> such that it's fairly easy to achieve good WYSIWYG using the standard
> options for the image and printer profiles (I don't think this is an
> accident, I think the papers are designed that way).  Therefore using
> EEM for proofing has some advantages:
> 
> - Good WYSIWYG, which means faster and more efficient work
> 
> - Any image proofed on EEM will print to a wider range of papers
> without requiring major tweaking  (these are some of the reasons why
> the simple workflows can be so effective)
> 
> - EEM is widely available in office supply stores and online.
> 
> 
> It so happens that Aurora Art's contrast and density are different
> enough from the average that a considerable adjustment curve is
> required for both density and contrast when the image is proofed on
> EEM.  You are right that proofing on the same paper as the final
> prints is efficient, however you may be "painting yourself into a
> corner" so to speak, if you ever want to print on other papers.
> 
> When you work up and proof an image, the image is largly adapted to
> the proof paper.  If the images are proofed to Aurora, they may be
> more difficult to print on other papers.  One of the reasons EEM is so
> well liked as proof paper is because it is pretty much dead center in
> the mainstream of contrast and density.  This insures that the images
> are closer to what might be considered a standard.  Aurora is pretty
> far away from that.
> 
> As you gain more experience it is likely the urge to try other papers
> will rear it's head, and someday you might find one you like better. 
> It would be a shame to discover that many images proofed on Aurora
> will not print well on other papers.  
> 
> All of my images, going back over four years and across as many
> printers, were all proofed on EEM using the same mainstream settings.
> They can all be printed easily with either of my current printers
> with a minimum of tweaking required.  Printers, inks and papers come
> and go over time.  But I'm secure about that because all the
> images are uniformly proofed.  I was ill at ease when I first got the
> 2400 last year, a completely different system.  But I was delighted to
> find that almost all of my images printed as is, requiring little if
> any adjustments.
> 
> If you really want to proof and print on the same paper, IMO Dourian
> Art would be a better choice.  It is also 2-sided, and is very close,
> nearly identical, to EEM in contrast and density.  It also has better
> dmax than Aurora.  Dourian is a dead ringer for PhotoRag, arguably the
> most popular mainstream paper that has set the standard for years.
> 
> Regards,
> Clayton
> 
> 
> Info on black and white digital printing at    
> http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
>

Hello Paul,

>Actually, that Dorian Art paper...I do like it...but it's 
>a tad warm...wondering what you'd suggest for something cooler...
>Once I load an MIS black (Eboni or Black) cartridge...

Since you aren't using Eboni yet, I recommend withholding judgement on
the color until that's installed.  If it's still too warm then there
are several cooler papers that are real nice.  Peregrine Smooth (used
to be Merlin Smooth), Condor BW and Kayenta are my favorites (details
in the Paper Chase article).


>can I leave my OME color carts where they are...

Yes, they aren't used during BO printing.


>for when I want to do color prints? 
>Will they be happy with this black cartridge intruder"?

Well, they are dye inks, so they will fade quickly.  And since Eboni
is pigment it probably won't be a good match (try it and see what
happens).  Probably best to put in pigment color inks.  Or put in the
R2 inks and get another 220 for color.

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Clayton

I've heared you mention creating a contrast curve to make your Aurora print match the 
EEM proof.

Is it not possible to simply add/+1 or +2 to the Contrast Setting in 2400 ABW Color 
Management?

Or maybe -4 color density rather than -5?

My Aurora print is only a tad less saturated than the EEM proof.

Other than that I don't see much difference. 

Maybe the EEM is a bit cooler, too?



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clayton Jones" <cj@...> wrote:

>
> Hello Paul,
> 
> >Actually, that Dorian Art paper...I do like it...but it's 
> >a tad warm...wondering what you'd suggest for something cooler...
> >Once I load an MIS black (Eboni or Black) cartridge...
> 
> Since you aren't using Eboni yet, I recommend withholding judgement on
> the color until that's installed.  If it's still too warm then there
> are several cooler papers that are real nice.  Peregrine Smooth (used
> to be Merlin Smooth), Condor BW and Kayenta are my favorites (details
> in the Paper Chase article).
> 
> 
> >can I leave my OME color carts where they are...
> 
> Yes, they aren't used during BO printing.
> 
> 
> >for when I want to do color prints? 
> >Will they be happy with this black cartridge intruder"?
> 
> Well, they are dye inks, so they will fade quickly.  And since Eboni
> is pigment it probably won't be a good match (try it and see what
> happens).  Probably best to put in pigment color inks.  Or put in the
> R2 inks and get another 220 for color.
> 
> Regards,
> Clayton
> 
> 
> Info on black and white digital printing at    
> http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
>

Hello Kevin,

>I've heared you mention creating a contrast curve to make your 
>Aurora print match the EEM proof.
> 
>Is it not possible to simply add/+1 or +2 to the Contrast Setting 
>in 2400 ABW Color Management?

No this really doesn't do the job.  It's too linear - by that I mean
it applies a change according to a fixed formula of some sort that is
always the same may and may not match the needs of the image.  It's
not just a matter of more or less contrast.  Here's an example:

Say you work up an image on EEM and you are perfectly satisfied with
it.  You print it on Aurora and it looks lower in contrast in general,
and perhaps some midtone areas are a tad too dark.  Highlights look
ok. So you add an adjustment curve and attempt to make the A. print
look like the proof.  A typical contrast curve has an S shape, so you
pull the low end down a bit and raise the center a tad, then make a
new print.  Closer, but now some high zones have been raised too much.
 So you add another point up there and pull that back down and make
another print.  Ahh, much better.  You keep doing this until the A.
print is an exact or very close match to the proof (with experience
you get very good and quick at this, especially as you get familiar
with the response of papers you use regularly - you intuitively know
how much to move a curve point to get what you want).  

The curve you end up with is rarely symmetrical, and most likely very
different than the curve the driver contrast control would have
applied.  Not only that, but go through the same process with another
image and the curve will be different.  At the bottom of article #9 in
the section "Matching the Final Print to the Proof" there are two
screen shots with examples of these paper curves.  They are quite simple.

BTW, I save this curve with the image without merging it.  This keeps
the master image unchanged, and if you ever want to make another proof
just deactivate the curve and print on EEM.  If you ever want to print
it on another paper, say VFA, you can deactivate the Aurora curve
(make a new proof if you haven't saved one) and make a new curve for
VFA and go through the same process.  Save that curve as well (the
idea is you only do a paper curve once - no more test prints after
that).  Now you can print the image on either paper simply by
activating the appropriate curve.  Sometimes with certain papers a
print is so close to the proof you won't bother making a curve for it,
or maybe it needs a curve with just a very tiny change (often happens
on papers such as PR, Dourian and VFA which are close in contrast and
density to EEM).


 
>My Aurora print is only a tad less saturated than the EEM proof.
>Other than that I don't see much difference. 

However you define the difference is up to you.  That's where each
photographer's unique artistry enters the mix.  The idea is that with
the proof you have established how you want the prints to look.  The
proof is king.  If the Aurora print doesn't look the way you want then
you do the above procedure and make it match the proof as best you
can.  The proof is the standard which final prints should match, no
matter what the paper.  In reality, the various other paper attributes
affect how a print looks and it may not be possible to get an exact
match.  You can set your own tolerances for what degree of difference
is acceptable.

 
>Maybe the EEM is a bit cooler, too?

That's another matter, and with the 2400 (I think you said you use
one) the tone can be adjusted with the ABW controls.  The purpose of
the proof is to establish the contrast and density.  You may choose a
particular paper for the final print for many different reasons (ink
or paper color, texture, brightness, OBAs, etc).  


This stuff always sounds more complicated when you write about it.  In
practice it's pretty simple and intuitive.  Hope this helps.


Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

"Not only that, but go through the same process with another image and 
the curve will be different."

Great helpful and generous response as usual Clayton. I have been 
attempting to create one adjustment curve for the EPSG paper that I 
use with the aRGB to ABW process and use that for all future prints. 
Is that nuts? Looks like you are suggesting the generation a a new 
adjustment curve for each image even though you are using the same 
final paper. Have you found that to be really necessary? Is using a 
generic custom created curve not a reliable choice? Obviously our eyes 
will tell us, but I am interested in your thoughts and experience. 
Thanks again for continuing to help those of us who use the R2400 and 
like your particular type of work flow!

Yah, right you say!

After about 10 days of test prints it looks like I'm getting close to needing to replace some 
ink on the 2400 (see link).

http://www.pbase.com/vinke/image/65402069

What is your philosophy on changing inks in order minimize waste?

As a side note, I'm keeping the 2400 on 24/7.  I think that you do the same.

Additionally, after review EEM vs. Aurora I've concluded that the Aurora is cooler and the 
EEM is warmer.




--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clayton Jones" <cj@...> wrote:

>
> Hello Kevin,
> 
> >I've heared you mention creating a contrast curve to make your 
> >Aurora print match the EEM proof.
> > 
> >Is it not possible to simply add/+1 or +2 to the Contrast Setting 
> >in 2400 ABW Color Management?
> 
> No this really doesn't do the job.  It's too linear - by that I mean
> it applies a change according to a fixed formula of some sort that is
> always the same may and may not match the needs of the image.  It's
> not just a matter of more or less contrast.  Here's an example:
> 
> Say you work up an image on EEM and you are perfectly satisfied with
> it.  You print it on Aurora and it looks lower in contrast in general,
> and perhaps some midtone areas are a tad too dark.  Highlights look
> ok. So you add an adjustment curve and attempt to make the A. print
> look like the proof.  A typical contrast curve has an S shape, so you
> pull the low end down a bit and raise the center a tad, then make a
> new print.  Closer, but now some high zones have been raised too much.
>  So you add another point up there and pull that back down and make
> another print.  Ahh, much better.  You keep doing this until the A.
> print is an exact or very close match to the proof (with experience
> you get very good and quick at this, especially as you get familiar
> with the response of papers you use regularly - you intuitively know
> how much to move a curve point to get what you want).  
> 
> The curve you end up with is rarely symmetrical, and most likely very
> different than the curve the driver contrast control would have
> applied.  Not only that, but go through the same process with another
> image and the curve will be different.  At the bottom of article #9 in
> the section "Matching the Final Print to the Proof" there are two
> screen shots with examples of these paper curves.  They are quite simple.
> 
> BTW, I save this curve with the image without merging it.  This keeps
> the master image unchanged, and if you ever want to make another proof
> just deactivate the curve and print on EEM.  If you ever want to print
> it on another paper, say VFA, you can deactivate the Aurora curve
> (make a new proof if you haven't saved one) and make a new curve for
> VFA and go through the same process.  Save that curve as well (the
> idea is you only do a paper curve once - no more test prints after
> that).  Now you can print the image on either paper simply by
> activating the appropriate curve.  Sometimes with certain papers a
> print is so close to the proof you won't bother making a curve for it,
> or maybe it needs a curve with just a very tiny change (often happens
> on papers such as PR, Dourian and VFA which are close in contrast and
> density to EEM).
> 
> 
>  
> >My Aurora print is only a tad less saturated than the EEM proof.
> >Other than that I don't see much difference. 
> 
> However you define the difference is up to you.  That's where each
> photographer's unique artistry enters the mix.  The idea is that with
> the proof you have established how you want the prints to look.  The
> proof is king.  If the Aurora print doesn't look the way you want then
> you do the above procedure and make it match the proof as best you
> can.  The proof is the standard which final prints should match, no
> matter what the paper.  In reality, the various other paper attributes
> affect how a print looks and it may not be possible to get an exact
> match.  You can set your own tolerances for what degree of difference
> is acceptable.
> 
>  
> >Maybe the EEM is a bit cooler, too?
> 
> That's another matter, and with the 2400 (I think you said you use
> one) the tone can be adjusted with the ABW controls.  The purpose of
> the proof is to establish the contrast and density.  You may choose a
> particular paper for the final print for many different reasons (ink
> or paper color, texture, brightness, OBAs, etc).  
> 
> 
> This stuff always sounds more complicated when you write about it.  In
> practice it's pretty simple and intuitive.  Hope this helps.
> 
> 
> Regards,
> Clayton
> 
> 
> Info on black and white digital printing at    
> http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
>

Hello Scott,

>attempting to create one adjustment curve... and use that for all 
>future prints. Is that nuts? Looks like you are suggesting the 
>generation a a new adjustment curve for each image even though you 
>are using the same final paper. Have you found that to be really 
>necessary? Is using a generic custom created curve not a reliable 
>choice? Obviously our eyes will tell us, but I am interested in your 
>thoughts and experience. 

Good question.  In theory a universal curve ought to do the job.  I
think people who have densitometers and tightly calibrated systems and
carefully made paper profiles are doing that.  But I don't work that
way and so must do the best I can by eyeball.  In the beginning I
thought a single curve would do the job, but soon found that the curve
varies with each image.  They can be similar in shape, but differ
enough in the details to need changes.  The biggest differences are
with images such as high vs low key, high contrast vs lots of
midtones, etc.

My next thought was to save a curve for each paper and use that as a
starting point, and then do minor tweaks to fit each image.  That can
work, but I found in practice that I can make a new one from scratch
in about as much time, so I just drifted away from doing that.

Another thing I found is that the final results can vary with a new
batch of paper or ink.  On a couple of occasions I have modified some
of my saved curves to adjust for that.  I suppose people with
calibrated systems would have to make new profiles as well.

In actual practice making these curves is so quick and easy that it's
just not an issue.

>Thanks again for continuing to help those of us who use the R2400 and 
>like your particular type of work flow!

You're welcome.  Glad it's helpful.


Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Hello Kevin,

>What is your philosophy on changing inks in order minimize waste?

I wait until it quits with the red "X" warning.  Only if another color
is almost empty do I change it as well.

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

If other folks are anything like me, someone has to rip the print out
of their hand and say "Enough already.Let it go!". There is always
something I think could be better. Curves and profiles, even the very
best, can't account for that. If they could, no one would be talking
about master printers and photographers. We'd all just be using the
canned ones set up by previously aknowledged top dogs and that would
be the end of it.

Likewise, between thought and reality, there is often a disconnect and
what I think I see onscreen just isn't there yet in the print. No. I'm
not looking at an unmanaged scanner,screen or printer etc. Whenever I
think I have the numbers all dialed in, the output starts looking, to
me, like drugstore prints. Good ones to be sure but nothing special.
Something like the difference between a player piano and an
accomplished musician playing a piano.

Clayton is spot on about different photos requiring different
treatments. In my view there is no way it(the printing) can be totaly
mechanised in all it's infinite variations without losing something.
There is a good reason artists and those who print for them generaly
require proofing.

Regards
Duane





--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clayton Jones"
<cj@...> wrote:

>
> Hello Scott,
> 
> >attempting to create one adjustment curve... and use that for all 
> >future prints. Is that nuts? Looks like you are suggesting the 
> >generation a a new adjustment curve for each image even though you 
> >are using the same final paper. Have you found that to be really 
> >necessary? Is using a generic custom created curve not a reliable 
> >choice? Obviously our eyes will tell us, but I am interested in your 
> >thoughts and experience. 
> 
> Good question.  In theory a universal curve ought to do the job.  I
> think people who have densitometers and tightly calibrated systems and
> carefully made paper profiles are doing that.  But I don't work that
> way and so must do the best I can by eyeball.  In the beginning I
> thought a single curve would do the job, but soon found that the curve
> varies with each image.  They can be similar in shape, but differ
> enough in the details to need changes.  The biggest differences are
> with images such as high vs low key, high contrast vs lots of
> midtones, etc.
> 
> My next thought was to save a curve for each paper and use that as a
> starting point, and then do minor tweaks to fit each image.  That can
> work, but I found in practice that I can make a new one from scratch
> in about as much time, so I just drifted away from doing that.
> 
> Another thing I found is that the final results can vary with a new
> batch of paper or ink.  On a couple of occasions I have modified some
> of my saved curves to adjust for that.  I suppose people with
> calibrated systems would have to make new profiles as well.
> 
> In actual practice making these curves is so quick and easy that it's
> just not an issue.
> 
> >Thanks again for continuing to help those of us who use the R2400 and 
> >like your particular type of work flow!
> 
> You're welcome.  Glad it's helpful.
> 
> 
> Regards,
> Clayton
> 
> 
> Info on black and white digital printing at    
> http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
>

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clayton Jones"
<cj@...> wrote:
Hello Clayton,
 
> Since you aren't using Eboni yet, I recommend withholding judgement on
> the color until that's installed.  If it's still too warm then there
> are several cooler papers that are real nice.  Peregrine Smooth (used
> to be Merlin Smooth), Condor BW and Kayenta are my favorites (details
> in the Paper Chase article).

Good advice, thanks.
> 
> >can I leave my OME color carts where they are...
> 
> Yes, they aren't used during BO printing.
> 
> >for when I want to do color prints? 
> >Will they be happy with this black cartridge intruder"?
> 
> Well, they are dye inks, so they will fade quickly.  And since Eboni
> is pigment it probably won't be a good match (try it and see what
> happens).  Probably best to put in pigment color inks.  Or put in the
> R2 inks and get another 220 for color.

Yes, I've been reading about the drawbacks of dye inks. But am curious
about something... I've had the Epson PictureMate for some time, makes
beautiful 4 x 6 glossies, good for family snapshots. Epson claims 100
yr lifespan for prints displayed under light and 200 yrs for storage
in albums. But I'd be surprised if the ink in its cartridge (all six
colors are in one unit) were pigment... maybe it is. Do you happen to
know?

Regards,

Paul

Hello Paul,

>Yes, I've been reading about the drawbacks of dye inks. But am curious
>about something... I've had the Epson PictureMate for some time, makes
>beautiful 4 x 6 glossies, good for family snapshots. Epson claims 100
>yr lifespan for prints displayed under light and 200 yrs for storage
>in albums. But I'd be surprised if the ink in its cartridge (all six
>colors are in one unit) were pigment... maybe it is. Do you happen to
>know?

Sorry, I don't know anything about PictureMate.  Maybe someone else
here does.


Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm