Re: [Digital BW] Re: PrintFIX PRO 2.0 with MIS UT7 inks
2006-11-30 by CDTobie@aol.com
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2006-11-30 by CDTobie@aol.com
In a message dated 11/30/06 12:15:14 PM, ausdlk@... writes: > > How important is a custom profile, any profile, to printing in ABW mode with > K3 inks? > AWB is a non-ICC process; no profiles possible, not previews possible, no matching one device to another possible. Thats why I print my Epson B&W via color model using ICC profiles to control it... C. David Tobie Product Technology Manager ColorVision Business Unit Datacolor Inc. CDTobie@... www.colorvision.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2006-11-30 by Roy Harrington
ABW is only non-ICC in that Epson does not supply any grayscale ICC profiles and none of the "biggies" in color management support grayscale profiling. However the QTR-Create-ICC tool does all of that -- creates grayscale ICC profile for use in softproofing and ICC printing to match the embedded profile and the printer device. This raises the ABW workflow to a complete ICC workflow. Roy --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, CDTobie@... wrote:
> > > In a message dated 11/30/06 12:15:14 PM, ausdlk@... writes: > > > > > > How important is a custom profile, any profile, to printing in ABW mode with > > K3 inks? > > > > AWB is a non-ICC process; no profiles possible, not previews possible, no > matching one device to another possible. Thats why I print my Epson B&W via color > model using ICC profiles to control it... > > C. David Tobie > Product Technology Manager > ColorVision Business Unit > Datacolor Inc. > CDTobie@... > www.colorvision.com > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >
2006-11-30 by CDTobie@aol.com
In a message dated 11/30/06 3:46:58 PM, roy@... writes: > ABW is only non-ICC in that Epson does not supply any grayscale ICC > profiles > and none of the "biggies" in color management support grayscale profiling. > ColorVision chose to use full 3D Look UpTable profiling instead, as it offers so much more control. You could run PrintFIX PRO through the AWB mode, I suppose, but all you'd get is linearization. Thats all you can really do to AWB: linearize it, and take a snapshot of the result. > > However the QTR-Create-ICC tool does all of that -- creates grayscale ICC > profile for use in softproofing and ICC printing to match the embedded > profile > and the printer device. This raises the ABW workflow to a complete ICC > workflow. > There would seem to be some rather large gaps there. Tonal control is missing, that still has to be done via the dartboard in AWB. Preview; does that cover tonalities, and by way of what tonal measurements? Wouldn't you have to profile every single tone of interest, and create a preview profile for each one, rather than having a 3D LUT profile that contains all possible tints and cross-tints in one profile? On the topic of cross-tints: I have found no method of creating them effectively in AWB. And tools for tinting and ramping? Again, I suspect this is being left to the dartboard. Gamut warnings? Not relevant. To me a complete ICC workflow also means I can match output on another media, or another printer, which is possible with 3D LUT profiles. I don't really see how this happens via AWB. So if a client loves a particular cross-tint, opps, no cross-tints... if they love a particular tint, how can I get that on another device or media, if its only available as an AWB value, which varies per media, and is only available on AWB-based devices? C. David Tobie Product Technology Manager ColorVision Business Unit Datacolor Inc. CDTobie@colorvision.com www.colorvision.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2006-11-30 by Roy Harrington
--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, CDTobie@... wrote: > > > In a message dated 11/30/06 3:46:58 PM, roy@... writes: > > > > ABW is only non-ICC in that Epson does not supply any grayscale ICC > > profiles > > and none of the "biggies" in color management support grayscale profiling. > > > ColorVision chose to use full 3D Look UpTable profiling instead, as it offers > so much more control. You could run PrintFIX PRO through the AWB mode, I > suppose, but all you'd get is linearization. Thats all you can really do to AWB: > linearize it, and take a snapshot of the result. Sure, a grayscale workflow is fundamentally different than a color workflow. I don't know whether or not PFP can do a grayscale workflow -- early on I used some Eye-One's i1Match software and it only sort of worked with grayscale data. > > > > However the QTR-Create-ICC tool does all of that -- creates grayscale ICC > > profile for use in softproofing and ICC printing to match the embedded > > profile > > and the printer device. This raises the ABW workflow to a complete ICC > > workflow. > > > There would seem to be some rather large gaps there. Tonal control is > missing, that still has to be done via the dartboard in AWB. That's a characteristic of grayscale -- there's no color in the image file. Preview; does that cover > tonalities, and by way of what tonal measurements? Wouldn't you have to > profile every single tone of interest, and create a preview profile for each one, > rather than having a 3D LUT profile that contains all possible tints and > cross-tints in one profile? That's true with all profiling -- if you change driver settings you must redo any profiles (or the correlary: you can only use a profile for the same driver settings). On the topic of cross-tints: I have found no method of > creating them effectively in AWB. Yes, AWB just doesn't support that. It could but they chose not to. And tools for tinting and ramping? Again, I > suspect this is being left to the dartboard. Gamut warnings? Not relevant. To > me a complete ICC workflow also means I can match output on another media, or > another printer, which is possible with 3D LUT profiles. I don't really see how > this happens via AWB. So if a client loves a particular cross-tint, opps, no > cross-tints... if they love a particular tint, how can I get that on another > device or media, if its only available as an AWB value, which varies per media, > and is only available on AWB-based devices? If you want color functionality then yes you should use a color workflow. But I think there's a very fundamental difference in using a grayscale workflow versus a color workflow with reduced gamut. I recently did a show of 20 or so images. As a show I wanted the all the images with the same split-tone hue. I much prefer that all my image files are grayscale -- the split tone for me is a printing issue not a source image file issue. The notion of converting all the files to RGB and trying to match the color tones isn't at all appealing. Since the files are all grayscale I can print with any number of printers and/or inks and get the same fundamental image -- be it neutral gray, sepia, split-tone etc. This is much more akin to what B&W photography has always been. Roy
> > C. David Tobie > Product Technology Manager > ColorVision Business Unit > Datacolor Inc. > CDTobie@... > www.colorvision.com > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >
2006-11-30 by Bruce Watson
Roy Harrington wrote: > If you want color functionality then yes you should use a color workflow. > > But I think there's a very fundamental difference in using a grayscale workflow versus a color workflow with reduced gamut. I recently did a show of 20 or so images. As a show I wanted the all the images with the same split-tone hue. I much prefer that all my image files are grayscale -- the split tone for me is a printing issue not a source image file issue. The notion of converting all the files to RGB and trying to match the color tones isn't at all appealing. Since the files are all grayscale I can print with any number of printers and/or inks and get the same fundamental image -- be it neutral gray, sepia, split-tone etc. This is much more akin to what B&W photography has always been. > > Roy And this is the way many (most?) of us would like to see it continue to be. Thanks for making some sense Roy. -- Bruce Watson / /
2006-12-01 by CDTobie@aol.com
In a message dated 11/30/06 5:35:19 PM, roy@... writes: > I recently did a show of 20 or so > images. As a show I wanted the all the images with the same split-tone hue. > I much prefer that all my image files are grayscale -- the split tone for me > is a > printing issue not a source image file issue. The notion of converting > all the > files to RGB and trying to match the color tones isn't at all appealing. > Since the files are all grayscale I can print with any number of printers > and/or inks > and get the same fundamental image -- be it neutral gray, sepia, split-tone > etc. > This is much more akin to what B&W photography has always been. > Which is why we build a "tinted profile" function into PrintFIX PRO 2.0. That means that users accustomed to printing grayscale images to a workflow that tints them for them on output can do exactly that. Just create any and all neutrals, tints, cross-tints, ramps to paper-tone etc, that you want; each is its own profile. Once you get them just the way you want them, you print your grayscale images to the profile of choice to get that same effect on all of them. As well as previewing your images to any of them, to be sure to get the one that best suits the set. So I don't think this workflow is losing anything for traditional users, just offering other functions as well. C. David Tobie Product Technology Manager ColorVision Business Division DataColor Inc. CDTobie@... www.colorvision.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2006-12-01 by Clayton Jones
Dave, Roy and CDavid, I think this last exchange has been an important one: -------------------------------------------------------- >...a grayscale workflow is fundamentally different than a color >workflow... > >...a characteristic of grayscale -- there's no color in the >image file. > >If you want color functionality then yes you should use a color >workflow. > >...there's a very fundamental difference in using a grayscale >workflow versus a color workflow...The notion of converting all >the files to RGB and trying to match the color tones isn't at all >appealing. Since the files are all grayscale I can print with any >number of printers and/or inks and get the same fundamental image >-- be it neutral gray, sepia, split-tone etc. > > This is much more akin to what B&W photography has always been. -------------------------------------------------------- This fundamental difference is one which often gets lost in the discussions. This exchange has illustrated it very nicely and I hope it has lots of readers. In the "dark age" BW practitioners fell into some well defined and understood categories, RC vs Fiber, for example. Amongst the fine art folks there were some finer gradations, such as Zoners vs Non-Zoners and Full Zoners vs Modified Zoners. And of course there were the formats: Small - Medium - Large. Individuals could, and did, fit into various combinations of these, but my point is that they were all well understood differences and it was relatively easy for beginners to make conscious choices as they progressed along the road of knowledge and experience. My perception right now is that the distinction between grayscale and color workflows is not so widely understood and articulated. When a beginner asks for advice on how to get started, the responses usually focus on the printers, inks, RIPs, degree of complexity, cost, etc. Even though it is an important choice, this workflow distinction is rarely ever mentioned (I guess we take it for granted). I think if we all were to make a point of adding references to this in our various posts (whenever appropriate, of course) it would over time raise this issue to a higher level of general awareness and understanding. And here's another thought about Roy's final point: >This is much more akin to what B&W photography has always been. This really resonates with me because I was a fiber based/Modified Zoner/mostly-medium-format darkroom practitioner for 20+ years and my simplified ABW grayscale workflow is very much simpatico with that way of conceptualizing and producing prints - I like it. What I'm wondering is how important this will be for someone coming into BW printing with no previous darkroom experience? Upon what basis will this theoretical person make a choice between a grayscale or color workflow? Regards, Clayton Info on black and white digital printing at http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
2006-12-01 by BKPhoto@aol.com
Clayton wrote:
>>What I'm wondering is how important this will be for someone coming into BW printing with no previous darkroom experience? Upon what basis will this theoretical person make a choice between a grayscale or color workflow?
You raise a very interesting point, Clayton; one that I've devoted considerable thought to because of the university curriculum we continue to develop at St. Edward's University (Austin, TX), and the workshops I teach, and I have a few observations to share with you.
First, the digital darkroom is fundamentally a color darkroom regardless of workflow, grayscale or color printing. Unless you're working on a monochromatic display, the grayscale pixels viewed on-screen are composed of RGB information. More importantly, all grayscale printing paths move data through the computer's and Photoshop's color engines, and ICC profiles are structured around color information. And, with rare exception, scanners and digital cameras are RGB devices. This is to say that some level of color expertise is important if a printer wants to move even marginally beyond plug and play (and most, sooner or later, do).
In the wet darkroom era, a black/white printer could easily avoid knowing much of anything about color theory. In the digital era, this would be a severly self-limiting mistake. Workflows are obviously important, but to concentrate on them at the expense of fostering an understanding of how an image making system works is potentially a mistake of the first order.
Essentially, photographers use technology to transform one kind of information into another. You can transform photonic energy into metal or dye particals using film and the wet darkroom; you can transform photonic energy into binary information and droplets of ink. It's been my experience that when young photographers (regardless of age) "get this", its easier for them to make informed decisions and choices. Creating workflows that support these decisions and choices is rightfully a result of this process. It puts the horse in front of the cart, in my opinion.
Second, I've found--much to my delight--that even those students who do not have wet darkroom experience gain from learning the digital darkroom by analogy to traditional wet darkroom practices. At the least, this builds a common working vocabulary, which is very important. This commonality, by the way, extends well beyond technique to include how images are critiqued and discussed.
Third, at the risk of being too obvious I'd distinguish between a "photographer" and and "printer." The photographer doesn't necessarily need to make prints--and thus, never needs to know much about how beautiful prints are made. They can hire someone else--who does understand the system, and has mastered the workflows--to make their prints for them. This has always been true, and the shift from wet darkroom to digital printing doesn't necessarily effect this in any meaningful way. If a photographer wants to also be a printer, and so many do, their apprenticeship to craft will be dictated by their need or ambition.
Bill Kennedy K2 Press Author of "The Photographer's Guide to the Digital Darkroom"
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]2006-12-01 by CDTobie@aol.com
In a message dated 11/30/06 11:03:12 PM, cj@... writes: > I think this last exchange has been an important one: > Perhaps, but it, and the other "traditionalist" responses to it seem to miss the point that a color workflow supports all that and more. If you only want to use fixed, 2d slices out of a 3d process, that works great. You simply aren't limited to that. C. David Tobie Product Technology Manager ColorVision Business Unit Datacolor Inc. CDTobie@... www.colorvision.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2006-12-01 by David Keenan
>Upon what basis will this theoretical person make a choice between a grayscale >or color workflow? Clayton -- These recent threads have revealed to me how little I really know about what I'm doing when it comes to digital b&w printing. The prints I make are decent, maybe even pretty good, using ABW on a R2400. I guess I am using a grayscale workflow that involves editing with CS2 and printing TIFF files from Qimage. The idea of using a color workflow (TIFFs saved in RGB mode) instead never crossed my mind. Adding another layer of software to print TIFF files saved in Qimage using QTR (which I tried awhile back) was just too much. (Anyone else use this CS2 -> Qimage -> QTR workflow?) I guess now I wonder how much better my prints could be if I explored other methods, inks. Dave. -- My Photography: http://www.david-keenan.com My Blog: http://www.david-keenan.com/euroblog [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2006-12-01 by John Moody
True, there are benefits, but what about any drawbacks? Do you suggest that color-ICC is now working wonderfully, and there is no reason to continue with "traditional" printing methods that reduce use of color inks, precisely manage luminance, etc. How many points, for each possible 2d slice is needed to implement a good 3d workflow, vs. how many is practical with our current tools? John
-----Original Message----- From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of CDTobie@... Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 9:31 AM To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Grayscale Vs Color (was PFP with UT7) In a message dated 11/30/06 11:03:12 PM, cj@... <mailto:cj%40cjcom.net> writes: > I think this last exchange has been an important one: > Perhaps, but it, and the other "traditionalist" responses to it seem to miss the point that a color workflow supports all that and more. If you only want to use fixed, 2d slices out of a 3d process, that works great. You simply aren't limited to that. C. David Tobie Product Technology Manager ColorVision Business Unit Datacolor Inc. CDTobie@... <mailto:CDTobie%40colorvision.com> www.colorvision.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2006-12-01 by john dean
As a post modern "traditionalist" I think it is really sad how this ) site has become primarily a blog for companies and photo salesmen selling the latest versions of their wares. It used to be totally different and much more creative venu. Oh, well. I guess all good things have to come to an end. RIP. John --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, CDTobie@... wrote: > > > In a message dated 11/30/06 11:03:12 PM, cj@... writes: > > > > I think this last exchange has been an important one: > > > > Perhaps, but it, and the other "traditionalist" responses to it seem to miss > the point that a color workflow supports all that and more. If you only want > to use fixed, 2d slices out of a 3d process, that works great. You simply
> aren't limited to that. > > C. David Tobie > Product Technology Manager > ColorVision Business Unit > Datacolor Inc. > CDTobie@... > www.colorvision.com > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >
2006-12-01 by Bruce Watson
john dean wrote: > As a post modern "traditionalist" I think it is really sad how this ) > site has become primarily a blog for companies and photo salesmen > selling the latest versions of their wares. It used to be totally > different and much more creative venu. Oh, well. I guess all good > things have to come to an end. RIP. > > John > Yep. Then we group members compound the problem by not defending the people who are actually bringing real world knowledge to this group. I should point out that some vendors do share knowledge with the group as opposed to constant shilling for their products. But the few who come here to constantly promote their product paint all the vendors with the same brush. These few are killing the goose that laid the golden egg. -- Bruce Watson / /
2006-12-01 by CDTobie@aol.com
In a message dated 12/1/06 11:07:57 AM, moodymz3@... writes: > True, there are benefits, but what about any drawbacks? > Do you suggest that color-ICC is now working wonderfully, and there is no > reason to continue with "traditional" printing methods that reduce use of > color inks, precisely manage luminance, etc. > There is certainly interest in continuing with both. I've been doing a fair amount of comparison between full color inks via the ICC approach, and ICC-compliant gray inks (MIS UT-3D) as a good way to seperate out what effects and results are based on color vs gray inks, and what on other components. Results there show a suprising amount of flexibility to both; though the ability to print both color and various tones of B&W on the same system would be the obvious selling point for the color inks, while the lack of color dots (their microscopic superiority, so to speak) would be the top virtue of the UT-3Ds. Precise luminance management is excellent with both, better than a lot of specialty B&W output that I see, so that wouldn't seem to be a negative point. I would have pointed out cost of entry as a limitation for this approach, but UT3Ds make it possible on sub-hundred dollar printers, so the only price issue remaining is the ICC-control system, in this case $499 for PrintFIX PRO. That would certainly be a barrier to many looking to enter the field for a minimal investment. > > How many points, for each possible 2d slice is needed to implement a good 3d > workflow, vs. how many is practical with our current tools? > Don't know exactly what you mean by "points" but I am not seeing any need to measure more than the standard 225 patch color target, plus the 238 patch gray target for creating composite color/gray profiles for use with color ink, and the 225 patches alone, with grayscale inks. I'll see if I can distinguish any advantages to adding the extended grays for gray inks, but as I don't see anything yet that I would want adding that target to fix, I'm not in too much of a hurry to test fixing it. C. David Tobie Product Technology Manager ColorVision Business Unit Datacolor Inc. CDTobie@... www.colorvision.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2006-12-01 by Paul Roark
Bill Kennedy wrote, in part: > First, the digital darkroom is fundamentally a color darkroom > regardless of workflow, ... One could say this about traditional B&W photography also. I think we risk taking something away from "B&W" photography if we pile on too much color theory too early on. >... the grayscale pixels viewed on-screen are composed of RGB information. And our eyes are fundamentally RGB devices, but I still see a "B&W" photo when I look at one. > ... all grayscale printing paths move data through the > computer's and Photoshop's color engines, and ICC profiles > are structured around color information. The white light we exposed B&W film and paper with was also "RGB," and if one really wanted to understand filters for both taking B&W and printing with variable-tone papers, a little color knowledge helped. On the other hand, I'd guess that many B&W photographers simply knew that to darken the sky a red filter was used, without really knowing much about color theory. I did color and B&W -- film and wet darkroom printing -- and one of the major attractions of B&W for me is the lack of color, with all its distractions and complexities. By the way, here is a little "cheap sheet" image that helps visualize the RGB, CMY, Lab, and LCh systems: http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/RGB+Lab.jpg ... >Second, ... even those students who do not have wet darkroom >experience gain from learning the digital darkroom by > analogy to traditional wet darkroom practices. I agree. The aesthetics of what makes a good B&W print don't really change. >Third, at the risk of being too obvious I'd distinguish >between a "photographer" and a "printer." >The photographer doesn't necessarily need to make prints--... > They can hire someone else-- This seems to have been much more common with color photography than with B&W. I think much more of the art of B&W is in the darkroom than is the case with color photography. I'm not a photography historian, but most of the B&W masters seem to have done their own printing. But I'm probably just missing something here ... Paul www.PaulRoark.com
2006-12-01 by CDTobie@aol.com
In a message dated 12/1/06 12:41:35 PM, paul.roark@... writes: > >The photographer doesn't necessarily need to make prints--... > > They can hire someone else-- > > This seems to have been much more common with color photography than with > B&W. > Indeed. We see in color, so color is obliged to be 'realistic' to a large degree. We don't see in black and white, so its more free to be artistic, to represent what we want it to, not what we see. I often make 'corrections' to a color image, but 'enhancements' to the same image in B&W. If dogs did photography, they would be obliged to make their B&W realistic, and would be free to be artistic with their color! <G> C. David Tobie Product Technology Manager ColorVision Business Unit Datacolor Inc. CDTobie@... www.colorvision.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2006-12-01 by bwinkjet
John, Just wanted to say I enjoy your comments on the Yahoo forums, this one included. I also enjoy the comments of people who offer new ideas and promote different ways to reach that "perfect print." This is one of the reasons I bother to read these forums. Keep posting and don't get too disheartened if a little commercial stuff shows up. Paul --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "john dean" <deanwork2003@...> wrote: > > As a post modern "traditionalist" I think it is really sad how this )
> site has become primarily a blog for companies and photo salesmen > selling the latest versions of their wares. It used to be totally > different and much more creative venu. Oh, well. I guess all good > things have to come to an end. RIP. > > John
2006-12-02 by dlruckus
I don't think you are missing much at all, Paul. I also did and do both. I like both but I must say that, for me at least, B&W has always been an exacting taskmaster. It's also very rewarding when it works. The abstraction allows for expression beyond just eyesight and opens more subjective interpretations IMO. I also use tints and color based grays at times for particular effects. One of the things I haven't seen mentioned in this thread as yet however is the metamerism inherent in using too much color dot structure. I know CD speaks in terms of microdots and invisibility but I still see distinct differences, with varying lighting, between the gray inks versus color based B&W. It may very well be that the newer printers are helping to minimize the effect but it is still there. --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" <paul.roark@...> wrote: > > I did color and B&W -- film and wet darkroom printing -- and one of the > major attractions of B&W for me is the lack of color, with all its > distractions and complexities. > Sort of like half of a photographer ;-} Maybe if someone else held the camera it could be reduced to a third and then billed as a collaborative effort. Or better yet just send someone else out to make the photos entirely...oh! That's called an editor or art director or something I think :) Actually nothing wrong with that in the workaday world. I made thousands of prints for others in the past. When it comes to objects d'art though, I would think the partial party doesn't deserve the full credit for the work. IMO of course. No. You're missing nothing. > > > >Third, at the risk of being too obvious I'd distinguish > >between a "photographer" and a "printer." > >The photographer doesn't necessarily need to make prints--... > > They can hire someone else-- > > This seems to have been much more common with color photography than with > B&W. I think much more of the art of B&W is in the darkroom than is the > case with color photography. I'm not a photography historian, but most of > the B&W masters seem to have done their own printing. But I'm probably just
> missing something here ... > > Paul > www.PaulRoark.com >
2006-12-02 by Paul Roark
>... One of the things I haven't seen mentioned in this > thread as yet however is the metamerism inherent in > using too much color dot structure. ... > I still see distinct differences, with varying lighting, > between the gray inks versus color based B&W. ... The fewer color inks in the image, the better. The 2400 Y = Carbon solution really helps with that printer, yellow being probably the worst offender when it comes to metamerism. What I have not really tested is whether a blended ink solution like the UT-3D inkset has less metamerism than an inkset that uses non-blended inks, but with the least amount of the colors, like the 5K+cm setup currently in my 2200. I'll have to make a couple of test strips and test that. (I will be doing a fade test comparison of the two approaches soon.) Paul www.PaulRoark.com
2006-12-02 by CDTobie@aol.com
In a message dated 12/2/06 1:05:27 AM, dlruckus@... writes: > I still see distinct differences, with varying lighting, between the > gray inks versus color based B&W. It may very well be that the newer > printers are helping to minimize the effect but it is still there. > Indeed, for any printers that do not have a light gray ink (light light black in Epson's terminology) there is significant metameric shift with differing light sources. This is very much minimized with the K3 printers, and other 'two-gray' printers. Should still see a bit more metameric consistancy with gray inksets, but I can't really distinguish it visually. C. David Tobie Product Technology Manager ColorVision Business Division DataColor Inc. CDTobie@... www.colorvision.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2006-12-03 by Claude
I've noticed that when I convert from RGB (24 bit) to Grayscale (8-bit) in Photoshop CS2 that the histogram shifts to the left, yet the monitor image stays the same. Has anyone found any differences between 2 prints from the same file printed with their favorite method as Grayscale vs. RGB?? Please elaborate on specific settings, etc. Claude
2006-12-03 by Claude
Very interesting thoughts from both gentlemen. I always thought of B&W as inherently abstract, to the human eye, since we do not see in shades of gray. Therefore B&W is essentially devoid of any color harmonies or inconguities with the real 4 Dimensional world (time matters as well). I have found that a B&W looks more "right" when converting from a color world when there is a greater increase of end-to-end, as well as local contrast. Since conversions of equal luminances of 2 spectrally opposite colors remove the color contrast, we must use pre or post processing color distortions to create a visually pleasing image WITH those contrasts (if that is the intent). It's also why Tmax 100, Tech. Pan, and Trix had completely different renderings of the same scene, without filters, exposed at the same Zone I threshold and developed to the same Contrast Index. I know I'm generalizing here, but B&W, as a visual medium, from the darkroom or lightroom, maintains it's inherent abstract properties nonetheless. It seems that any minute deviations from perceived "neutrality" is more readily apparent to the human tri-stimulus system in the B&W image vs. the color one. Why else would we be so sensitive to metameric issues? This, in part, explains the intelligence and intensity of this board and why some color scientists, technicians, and photographers (including this one) have such an avid interest in keeping up with it. Claude Jodoin Tech. Editor Rangefinder
2006-12-03 by Mike Johnston
I think when it is very dark we only see in grays. So possibly we do have some processing in our brains for B&W. Mike J.
-----Original Message----- From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Claude Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 5:09 PM To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Grayscale Vs Color (was PFP with UT7) Very interesting thoughts from both gentlemen. I always thought of B&W as inherently abstract, to the human eye, since we do not see in shades of gray. Therefore B&W is essentially devoid of any color harmonies or inconguities with the real 4 Dimensional world (time matters as well). I have found that a B&W looks more "right" when converting from a color world when there is a greater increase of end-to-end, as well as local contrast. Since conversions of equal luminances of 2 spectrally opposite colors remove the color contrast, we must use pre or post processing color distortions to create a visually pleasing image WITH those contrasts (if that is the intent). It's also why Tmax 100, Tech. Pan, and Trix had completely different renderings of the same scene, without filters, exposed at the same Zone I threshold and developed to the same Contrast Index. I know I'm generalizing here, but B&W, as a visual medium, from the darkroom or lightroom, maintains it's inherent abstract properties nonetheless. It seems that any minute deviations from perceived "neutrality" is more readily apparent to the human tri-stimulus system in the B&W image vs. the color one. Why else would we be so sensitive to metameric issues? This, in part, explains the intelligence and intensity of this board and why some color scientists, technicians, and photographers (including this one) have such an avid interest in keeping up with it. Claude Jodoin Tech. Editor Rangefinder
2006-12-03 by l33ry
--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, CDTobie@... wrote: > We see in color, so color is obliged to be 'realistic' to a large > degree. We don't see in black and white With all due respect, I think these statements are simply not true, at least from a physiological standpoint. Although it's likely I'm misunderstanding you, a matter of terminology and semantics. You probably mean that we understand the world in color. (Although, where does that leave the variously colorblind, btw?) But it's interesting to note that, as far as how we see (as I understand it), the human eye indeed has both black and white receptors (rods) and color receptors (cones). Furthermore, not only do the rods greatly outnumber the cones, they dominate, or exclusively sense, our peripheral and low-light vision; the color receptors, on the other hand, are fewer, concentrated at the center of our vision and are far more dependent on illumination. One could argue that, in a sense (no pun intended), black and white dominates our visual experience, even though our perception of that experience is colored. As for the notion that color is obliged to be "realistic", that's a very slippery one. As I am sure you are well aware, our perception of color is very dependent on expectations, color interactions, and aesthetics, to name three random factors off the top of my head. Our brains constantly play fast and loose with the colors we see to make them "right". So "realistic" color is rather psychological and subjective, and our idea of it is easily fooled; I'd say it's even a bit of an oxymoron. It should be pretty obvious to anyone surveying digital cameras (or film) that different people have rather different ideas of what's "right" or "realistic" re color. Etc., etc.--I'm sure you can think of many more examples. And I don't think I buy that our expectation of "realistic" luminance, or tonal value is any less demanding (or any less subjective) than our expectations for colors. I have no doubt that it's more of a challenge to meet/fool those expectations through artifice where color is concerned, as opposed to mere tonality, but it does not follow that because there are technical inequities, our expectations are unequal. I don't think it's going too far to say that our expectations of color in photographs or artwork are no more exacting or rigid than are our expectations of tonal values in such situations. Having said all this, I have an inkling that we consider black and white more artistic and less representational (no argument there), not just because of novelty or abstraction, but also because it resonates with our peripheral, subliminal, and darker visual experience--the world seen by the rods--the mysterious world seen in the corner of your eye, in the shadows, in the darkness. By its nature, much good still photography intrigues us by, among other things, showing us a world we see but can't or won't notice or contemplate outside of temporal experience. I think black and white goes a bit further, by allowing our focused, conscious vision to see the world as it might be seen by our peripheral, unconscious, and more primal vision. Bob L P.S. A nice overview of the human eye and how it works: http://thalamus.wustl.edu/course/eyeret.html
2006-12-03 by Clayton Jones
Hello Bob L, >Having said all this, I have an inkling that we consider black and >white more artistic and less representational (no argument there), >not just because of novelty or abstraction, but also because it >resonates with our peripheral, subliminal, and darker visual >experience--the world seen by the rods--the mysterious world seen in >the corner of your eye, in the shadows, in the darkness. By its >nature, much good still photography intrigues us by, among other >things, showing us a world we see but can't or won't notice or >contemplate outside of temporal experience. I think black and white >goes a bit further, by allowing our focused, conscious vision to see >the world as it might be seen by our peripheral, unconscious, and more >primal vision. Very thoughtful and interesting post. Thanks very much. Regards, Clayton Info on black and white digital printing at http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
2006-12-03 by Ernst Dinkla
There's a much longer history of (artistic) monochrome representation of the world around us than the one with multi colors. Say 40.000 years against 4000 years. In no technology I can recall there has been multi-color first and monochrome later. So I think it must be baked in our genes meanwhile despite the fact that we see in colors. While it may be more abstract it isn't alien to our system, the translation is made without that abstraction coming to mind. Could well be that the latest generations bombarded with full color see it as more abstract than my generation and the ones before do, but you don't wash 40000 years from your system that fast. This doesn't imply that there are no physiological reasons, we are much more sensitive to tonal differences and tonal contrast than to color differences and contrast. If that hadn't been the case we wouldn't have accepted the primitive multi-color representations in early photography and movies at all, much of that was a B&W skeleton draped with one, two or three colors and they were the rage of their time. In contrast: strip a modern movie of its tonal content and there's little left, much more abstract than we can get used to. A friend made some paintings like that 35 years ago, interesting but not for a wider public. There are other examples. Most sharpening techniques in digital color are based on tonal contrast only (for more reasons) and it works without question. I do not know the development of the visual system in species but I would be surprised if it didn't start somewhere as a monochrome one, say 1 bit quality. I just find it strange that B&W photography isn't set in that history of the monochrome representation of the world. It got its place there long before we started discussions about color control on B&W images. Come to think of it. If I go to an old B&W movie like Polanski's Repulsion, Cul de Sac, Cassevete's Shadows, whatever from that period when color was available but not affordable for everyone, you don't think about abstraction after the first 10 seconds. Deneuve, Pleasence, become as real as they were in color movies. Met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst | Dinkla Grafische Techniek | | www.pigment-print.com | | ( unvollendet ) |
2006-12-03 by CDTobie@aol.com
In a message dated 12/2/06 7:17:57 PM, claudej1@... writes: > Since conversions of equal luminances of 2 spectrally > opposite colors remove the color contrast, we must use pre or post > processing color distortions to create a visually pleasing image WITH > those contrasts > Yes, I used to use a color image of cows in a pasture under lilacs as a sample image for students to convert to B&W. The B&W Holstein cows converted nicely by they would always be quite suprised when the lilacs diappeared into the foliage on conversion. Getting them to work with channel blending (or more recently CameraRAW channel adjustments) to bring out contrast between the lilacs and the foliage was a good way to get them thinking about the relationships involved. Another tutorial I find effective is to slide the CameraRAW saturation slider all the way to desaturated. Then adjust the master curve to offer effective black and white global and local contrasts. Now resaturate the image, and see what those adjustments do to the color image... C. David Tobie Product Technology Manager ColorVision Business Unit Datacolor Inc. CDTobie@... www.colorvision.com C. David Tobie Product Technology Manager ColorVision Business Unit Datacolor Inc. CDTobie@... www.colorvision.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2006-12-03 by CDTobie@aol.com
In a message dated 12/2/06 8:08:06 PM, wpajohnson@... writes: > I think when it is very dark we only see in grays. > So possibly we do have some processing in our brains for B&W. > We have two entire image processing systems: Red, Green, and Blue sensitive cones for color, and monochrome rods for B&W. Being "unfiltered" the rods are more sensitive, so we depend on them for night vision, when our color vision fails. The rods see things as quite cool (blue), so when the two types of vision mix, the rods add a blue component. This is why at low room light you calibrate a low luminance CRT to a much yellower 5000k whitebalance ( to compensate for this blueness), and at moderate room lighting, you can calibrate a much brighter LCD to a 6500k whitebalance, for similar visual results. That is one of the factors that the ambient light feature in Spyder2PRO adjusts for... C. David Tobie Product Technology Manager ColorVision Business Unit Datacolor Inc. CDTobie@... www.colorvision.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2006-12-03 by CDTobie@aol.com
In a message dated 12/2/06 8:29:49 PM, l33ry@... writes: > One could argue that, in a sense (no > pun intended), black and white dominates our visual experience, even > though our perception of that experience is colored. > In the dark yes, in the daylight, no... and I even dream at night in color, though that doesn't prove much, we have a webmaster than sometimes dreams in HTML... <G> C. David Tobie Product Technology Manager ColorVision Business Unit Datacolor Inc. CDTobie@... www.colorvision.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2006-12-03 by Steve Gledhill
Not to sure how close this is to the primary purpose of this Group, nor quite what point I'm making - but for me this was fascinating ... Ernst's comment reminded me of an experience in 1965 that left a lasting impression on me. When I was 16 year old schoolboy I visited Russia for 2 weeks (from the UK). An amazing trip with many strong memories. But the overwhelming memory was to discover that Russia was in colour! It was almost a shock. Everything I'd seen about Russia up to that point was via B&W TV and newspapers. Colour TV was only just starting to appear at that time and there was no colour in newspapers for many more years. B&W had been my norm as far as my notions of what the place would be like; indeed of what much of the world was like. I wonder whether that 'grounding' in our formative years in B&W media experiences sets us older folks apart in some way from those who are younger for whom colour has been really been the norm in all of the media. I doubt it - but I do wonder. Steve Gledhill http://www.virtuallygrey.co.uk/ Ernst Dinkla wrote: > > ... > > Come to think of it. If I go to an old B&W movie like > Polanski's Repulsion, Cul de Sac, Cassevete's Shadows, > whatever from that period when color was available but not > affordable for everyone, you don't think about abstraction > after the first 10 seconds. Deneuve, Pleasence, become as real > as they were in color movies. > > > > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
2006-12-03 by lou4photo
Hello John: I don't get the sense from Mr. Tobie's input that he is giving a sales pitch as much as sharing information about a workflow that his products help accomplish. There are other ways to achieve a CM workflow without his products as I discovered back in March (see post #74990)and found it to be a viable approach for me though I knew it would not meet everyones needs. It's clear that often a "vendor" may slant his information toward the products they sell. My guess is, in addition to potential economic gains, they simply know alot more about those products and related workflows. One must do research and compare methods and products and make purchase selections based on that research but,so as long as shamless shilling isn't the intent, more information on methods that work and detailed info on products that work is good to know. On a more personal note, Mr.Tobie has been quite generous in sharing his extensive knowledge on printing with me and I have never bought a thing from him. Lou Meluso DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "john dean" <deanwork2003@...> wrote: > > As a post modern "traditionalist" I think it is really sad how this )
> site has become primarily a blog for companies and photo salesmen > selling the latest versions of their wares. It used to be totally > different and much more creative venu. Oh, well. I guess all good > things have to come to an end. RIP. > > John >
2006-12-03 by CDTobie@aol.com
In a message dated 12/3/06 10:46:59 AM, stephengledhill@... writes: > I wonder > whether that 'grounding' in our formative years in B&W media experiences > sets us older folks apart in some way from those who are younger for > whom colour has been really been the norm in all of the media. I doubt > it - but I do wonder. > In competitive architectural presentations, color was more or less mandatory on the West Coast of the US years earlier than it was on the East Coast. You could chalk this up to being less conservative, more exposed to modern media, and a number of other concepts, but whatever the reason, we reached a point where we just couldn't trust that a black and white presentation, even a lovely one, could grab the attention of potential clients the way that color could. Emotion was often thrown about as a factor, color added 'emotion' to presentations. Certainly architects were raised in a black and white tradition... but their clients may well have changed from that generation to the color-media-saturated generation(s) that followed; and that may have happened sooner on the West Coast, where younger people were in positions of power, than the East, where the previous generation continued to run things for longer. But here we are many years later talking about the emotive nature of B&W. I find that the color versions of some of my AC/DC capable images are much more emotive, and grab people instantly; where as the black and white version appeals to a much more cerebral, contemplative audience, or even the same person later, after more time. C. David Tobie Product Technology Manager ColorVision Business Unit Datacolor Inc. CDTobie@... www.colorvision.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2006-12-03 by CDTobie@aol.com
In a message dated 12/3/06 11:05:50 AM, lmeluso@... writes: > I don't get the sense from Mr. Tobie's input that he is giving a > sales pitch as much as sharing information about a workflow that his > products help accomplish. ... > We know what we work with, and what I work with is what I'm developing, so thats where my current thinking is centered, etc... > On a more personal note, Mr.Tobie has been > quite generous in sharing his extensive knowledge on printing with me > and I have never bought a thing from him. > Well, perhaps someday I'll develop something that will tempt you. Or not; that works too... I don't only shoot with photographers who use the brand of cameras I'm involved with either; I learn more detailed, specific stuff from those working with similar equipment, but broader stuff from those working differently. C. David Tobie Product Technology Manager ColorVision Business Unit Datacolor Inc. CDTobie@... www.colorvision.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2006-12-03 by john dean
Well said. The films of these guys are more "real" if you want to use a 10 cent word that has no "real" value in the "real" artworld. There is nothing missing in early Hitchcock. That is the highest form of visual expression accomplished in photography in over 100 years. Most people who are "real" artists and not techno marketers know that.
> > Come to think of it. If I go to an old B&W movie like > Polanski's Repulsion, Cul de Sac, Cassevete's Shadows, > whatever from that period when color was available but not > affordable for everyone, you don't think about abstraction > after the first 10 seconds. Deneuve, Pleasence, become as real > as they were in color movies. > > Met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst > > > | Dinkla Grafische Techniek | > | www.pigment-print.com | > | ( unvollendet ) | >
2006-12-03 by Bob Frost
Ernst, From what I have read, our predecessors had only black and white vision and rods in their eyes. At some time in our evolutionary history, cones developed and a color system was superimposed on top of the original B&W system (not in place of). So we have both. In dim light, our color vision doesn't work very well, so we see only luminance using the rods, while in the light the cones come into action overlaying color info, but the luminance measured during the day comes from summing the output of the rods and the cones, not just the output of the rods. A good book that explains all this in relation to the use of color in art is:- 'Vision and Art: the Biology of Seeing' by Margaret Livingstone, Professor of Neurobiology at Harvard. One quote: - "Some aspects of visual perception - such as object recognition, face recognition, and of course color perception - depend heavily on color, whereas other aspects of vision - such as motion perception, depth perception, figure/ground segregation, and receiving positional information - are colorblind." Bob Frost.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Ernst Dinkla" <E.Dinkla@...> There's a much longer history of (artistic) monochrome representation of the world around us than the one with multi colors. Say 40.000 years against 4000 years. In no technology I can recall there has been multi-color first and monochrome later. So I think it must be baked in our genes meanwhile despite the fact that we see in colors. ...............................
2006-12-03 by Bob Frost
David, Amazing how Spiders can creep into everything - even dreams! Mind you, I'm not sure the strange things you mention (do you use spellcheck?) qualify as Spiders! My book on Spiders says they have eight legs, and eight eyes, and evolved about 400 million years ago. So perhaps your three-legged, one-eyed one is an early evolutionary dead-end! ;) Spiders only see in B&W (back on topic!), and the jumping spider vibrates its retina so that it can collect more info with fewer sensors in the eye! NASA is working on this idea apparently. A camera that vibrates its sensor to increase resolution, not just to get rid of dust or the 'shakes'. Bob F.
----- Original Message ----- From: <CDTobie@...> and I even dream at night in color We have two entire image processing systems: Red, Green, and Blue sensitive cones for color, and monochrome rods for B&W. Being "unfiltered" the rods are more sensitive, so we depend on them for night vision, when our color vision fails. The rods see things as quite cool (blue), so when the two types of vision mix, the rods add a blue component. This is why at low room light you calibrate a low luminance CRT to a much yellower 5000k whitebalance ( to compensate for this blueness), and at moderate room lighting, you can calibrate a much brighter LCD to a 6500k whitebalance, for similar visual results. That is one of the factors that the ambient light feature in Spyder2PRO adjusts for...
2006-12-03 by l33ry
Hi, Clayton, Thanks, but it's an inspiring and provocative thread, don't you think? Just throwing in my .02. Been meaning to thank you for your R220 vari-tone setup and workflow, which I only just discovered and started messing around with (serves me right for not checking in here more frequently!). I had already begun to mix warm and neutral carts, but I don't know when, if ever, I would have stumbled on the idea of matching them to the color control sliders! Bob L
2006-12-04 by Greg
--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Frost" <bob@...> wrote: > NASA is working on this idea apparently. A camera that vibrates its sensor > to increase resolution, not just to get rid of dust or the 'shakes'. > Shouldn't be much work to be done, Jenoptik and Megavision (to name two) have had this for years with the micro scanning backs that shift the CCD by 1 pixel in up to each of the 4 directions, and results in up to 16 captures with the resulting image being higher resolution and true color (not what we get from the Bayer interpolation).
2006-12-04 by l33ry
But then, why not? I imagine sitting in a dark cave watching monochrome shadows dancing on a wall is also, as you say, "baked in our genes". ;) - Bob L --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Ernst Dinkla <E.Dinkla@...> wrote:
> Come to think of it. If I go to an old B&W movie like > Polanski's Repulsion, Cul de Sac, Cassevete's Shadows, > whatever from that period when color was available but not > affordable for everyone, you don't think about abstraction > after the first 10 seconds. Deneuve, Pleasence, become as real > as they were in color movies. > > Met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst > > > | Dinkla Grafische Techniek | > | www.pigment-print.com | > | ( unvollendet ) | >
2006-12-04 by Clayton Jones
>But here we are many years later talking about the emotive nature of >B&W. I find that the color versions of some of my AC/DC capable >images are much more emotive, and grab people instantly; where as the >black and white version appeals to a much more cerebral, >contemplative audience, or even the same person later, after more >time. Some years ago during an exhibition of my BW prints I received the following two comments: An elderly gentleman paying me his highest compliment: "I never knew there was so much color in black and white" Another, equally sincere but missing it: "Gee, these pictures are really nice. Too bad they're not in color" Regards, Clayton Info on black and white digital printing at http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
2006-12-04 by Clayton Jones
Hello Bob, >Thanks, but it's an inspiring and provocative thread, don't you think? Yes it's really interesting. What a great forum. >Been meaning to thank you for your R220 vari-tone setup and workflow, >which I only just discovered and started messing around with (serves >me right for not checking in here more frequently!). I had already >begun to mix warm and neutral carts, but I don't know when, if ever, I >would have stumbled on the idea of matching them to the color control >sliders! It was sort of an accident. If MIS hadn't sent me mislabeled carts I probably wouldn't have thought of it. It's a nice system, glad you like it. Regards, Clayton Info on black and white digital printing at http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
2006-12-05 by Rick Colson
Clayton - Years ago I produced an ad for AGFA's product line, Rodinal, Portriga, Brovira, etc., featuring an image in black and white of a grungy looking circus clown with a cigarette hanging from his mouth and the headline was "Put more color in your black and white." Rick
2006-12-05 by Kip Babington
When I switched to MIS EZ inks for my black and white printing, in the summer of 2004, I decided to do a little test of fade resistance comparing my new ink choice against my earlier inks, Lyson Quad Black (dyes). I printed the same image twice on the same page, once with an Epson C84 using EZ pigments and once with a Canon S9000 using Lyson dyes. I did this on two sheets, one of Ilford Heavyweight Matte, the paper I had been using with the Lyson inks, and one on Epson Enhanced Matte that I was going to use with the EZ inks. I covered half of each page with a very thick (1/8 inch) piece of cardboard, so that half of each image was exposed and the other half covered, taped the package together and stuck it in a south-facing window on 8/4/04, here in Missouri (38 degrees North latitude.) And forgot about it. The pages got direct sunlight during the winter months and part of the spring and fall (don't know exact dates, though) but during the warmer months the eaves of the roof gave some shade from direct sunlight. We do have trees in the yard, so even during the winter the images did not get direct sunlight all day. I came across the pages yesterday, 12/4/06. To my surprise, after 28 months neither of the paper bases showed any difference between where they had been covered and where they had been exposed to light, although the EEM had yellowed very slightly overall compared to a fresh sheet from a recently purchased box. I don't have any of the Ilford paper on hand to compare to. The part of the Lyson images exposed to sun showed moderate lightening but no change in tone on the Ilford paper and more dramatic lightening and a strong reddish/brownish tone on EEM. The EZ images showed NO fading or tone shift anywhere, on either paper. Not a scientific test by any means, but it certainly reinforces for me the choice of EZ inks. Most of my images end up bound into books and so have very little exposure to light. The slight yellowing of the EEM paper base is only noticeable (by me) in a side-by-side comparison to fresh paper, and does not detract from the image. Still, I'm trying some Red River matte paper this Christmas printing season, so I may try an EZ image on that paper in the window with an image on EEM for comparison. Cheers, Kip
2006-12-05 by Clayton Jones
Hello Kip, Thanks for the good report. It really speaks well for the MIS inks. I have an Eboni BO print in a similar wondowsill test and is 3+ years now with no sign of fading. Great stuff. Regards, Clayton Info on black and white digital printing at http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
2006-12-06 by Richard Smallfield
At 04:50 AM Wednesday 12/6/2006, you wrote: >I came across the pages yesterday, 12/4/06. To my surprise, after 28 >months neither of the paper bases showed any difference between where >they had been covered and where they had been exposed to light, although >the EEM had yellowed very slightly overall compared to a fresh sheet >from a recently purchased box. I live in New Zealand where there is a higher than usual amount of UV light. My bedroom gets no direct sunlight and I've been putting up proofs on the wall with pins - and after only three weeks the paper has gone markedly cream compared with a fresh sheet. Most alarming - it's not an option for use in my country it would seem. Richard -- http://smallfield.vze.com http://photos.smallfield.vze.com (Photos web site) http://warkworth.vze.com/ (Warkworth photo essay) "DO NOT WORRY ABOUT ANYTHING! Another 100 years and we won't even care." --Narayani Diorio
2006-12-06 by Steven Karafyllakis
Hi Richard; Your experience is closer to mine were EEM is concerned, but I have a question-did you pin the prints directly to the wall with no backing or barrier, and what kind of paint is on the wall? I've had indications that latex paint for one, will yellow inkjet paper faster. Steve Karafyllakis --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Richard Smallfield <r.smallfield@...> wrote: > > At 04:50 AM Wednesday 12/6/2006, you wrote: > >I came across the pages yesterday, 12/4/06. To my surprise, after 28 > >months neither of the paper bases showed any difference between where > >they had been covered and where they had been exposed to light, although > >the EEM had yellowed very slightly overall compared to a fresh sheet > >from a recently purchased box. > > I live in New Zealand where there is a higher than usual amount of UV light. My bedroom gets no direct sunlight and I've been putting up proofs on the wall with pins - and after only three weeks the paper has gone markedly cream compared with a fresh sheet. Most alarming - it's not an option for use in my country it would seem.
> > Richard > -- > http://smallfield.vze.com > http://photos.smallfield.vze.com (Photos web site) > http://warkworth.vze.com/ (Warkworth photo essay) > > > "DO NOT WORRY ABOUT ANYTHING! Another 100 years > and we won't even care." > --Narayani Diorio >
2006-12-06 by Richard Smallfield
At 02:15 AM Thursday 12/7/2006, you wrote: >Your experience is closer to mine were EEM is concerned, but I have a >question-did you pin the prints directly to the wall with no backing >or barrier, and what kind of paint is on the wall? I've had >indications that latex paint for one, will yellow inkjet paper faster. No backing, acrylic paint ... But! The same thing happens if they are just sitting on my desk which is plain wood. Rich -- http://smallfield.vze.com http://photos.smallfield.vze.com (Photos web site) http://warkworth.vze.com/ (Warkworth photo essay) We shall not cease from exploration And the end of all our exploring Will be to arrive where we started And know the place for the first time. --T.S. Eliot, Four Quartets, 'Little Gidding'
2006-12-06 by Paul Roark
Richard Smallfield wrote: >I live in New Zealand where there is a higher than usual >amount of UV light... >... and after only three weeks the paper [EEM] has gone markedly > cream compared with a fresh sheet... Why would there be more UV in NZ? Would this be latitude controlled? Paul www.PaulRoark.com
2006-12-06 by David Whistance
I may be out of date but I think it is because they have a hole in the ozone layer above them. The ozone layer is supposed to filter out much of the UV light. David Whistance
-----Original Message----- From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Paul Roark Sent: 06 December 2006 19:30 To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Informal Fade Test Richard Smallfield wrote: >I live in New Zealand where there is a higher than usual >amount of UV light... >... and after only three weeks the paper [EEM] has gone markedly > cream compared with a fresh sheet... Why would there be more UV in NZ? Would this be latitude controlled? Paul www.PaulRoark.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2006-12-06 by Paul Roark
A factor that is hard to track is indoor air quality issues. These can affect the fade tests, I believe. Indoor air pollution has browned wet process RC prints of mine in the past. In general, air borne acids and oxidizers, often in conjunction with humidity, seem to accelerate paper and image deterioration significantly. One thing that limits our ability to rely on Wilhelm or other accelerated aging tests is that they are based on an ideal environment, which is something we are not guaranteed. So, indoor air quality may be an issue that affects our various tests and results. Spray coatings may be able to help with some air quality issues. What I'd like to see for archival purposes is encapsulated carbon - humidity and pollution blocking barriers on both sides of an image sandwich. Inside, the coating companies need to compete for in terms of the zeolites, buffers and other defensive strategies to capture the airborne hazards. Paul www.PaulRoark.com <http://www.paulroark.com/> _____
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Richard Smallfield Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2006 7:59 AM To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Informal Fade Test At 02:15 AM Thursday 12/7/2006, you wrote: >Your experience is closer to mine were EEM is concerned, but I have a >question-did you pin the prints directly to the wall with no backing >or barrier, and what kind of paint is on the wall? I've had >indications that latex paint for one, will yellow inkjet paper faster. No backing, acrylic paint ... But! The same thing happens if they are just sitting on my desk which is plain wood. Rich -- http://smallfield. <http://smallfield.vze.com> vze.com http://photos. <http://photos.smallfield.vze.com> smallfield.vze.com (Photos web site) http://warkworth. <http://warkworth.vze.com/> vze.com/ (Warkworth photo essay) We shall not cease from exploration And the end of all our exploring Will be to arrive where we started And know the place for the first time. --T.S. Eliot, Four Quartets, 'Little Gidding' [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2006-12-06 by Steve Kale
Yup we¹ve been paying for all those US emissions for some time. Great place to go get a tan...
From: David Whistance <david.whistance@btopenworld.com> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 19:49:20 -0000 To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Informal Fade Test I may be out of date but I think it is because they have a hole in the ozone layer above them. The ozone layer is supposed to filter out much of the UV light. David Whistance -----Original Message----- From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com <mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com <mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint%40yahoogroups.com> ]On Behalf Of Paul Roark Sent: 06 December 2006 19:30 To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com <mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint%40yahoogroups.com> Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Informal Fade Test Richard Smallfield wrote: >I live in New Zealand where there is a higher than usual >amount of UV light... >... and after only three weeks the paper [EEM] has gone markedly > cream compared with a fresh sheet... Why would there be more UV in NZ? Would this be latitude controlled? Paul www.PaulRoark.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2006-12-06 by Greg
--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" <paul.roark@...> wrote: > > Richard Smallfield wrote: > > >I live in New Zealand where there is a higher than usual > >amount of UV light... > > >... and after only three weeks the paper [EEM] has gone markedly > > cream compared with a fresh sheet... > > Why would there be more UV in NZ? Would this be latitude controlled? > > Paul > www.PaulRoark.com > If testing at this time of the year the Earth is closest to the sun, and the Earth is tilted towards the Southern Hemishpere, so the sunlight is more direct on those continents than those of us that live in the northern half. They are approaching their longest day as we approach our shortest.
2006-12-07 by Richard Smallfield
At 08:49 AM Thursday 12/7/2006, you wrote: >I may be out of date but I think it is because they have a hole in the ozone >layer above them. The ozone layer is supposed to filter out much of the UV >light. That is correct - apparently there is a hole (or a thinning?) in the ozone layer above us. Richard -- http://smallfield.vze.com http://photos.smallfield.vze.com (Photos web site) http://warkworth.vze.com/ (Warkworth photo essay) "It's all right to have butterflies in your stomach. Just get them to fly in formation." --Rob Gilbert
2006-12-07 by Ken Carney
OK, I guess it's time for us to park the hole somewhere else for a while - just so long as I can keep my 350hp Charger that goes real fast and makes a cool sound...:))
> -----Original Message----- > From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com > [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Steve > Kale > Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2006 1:59 PM > To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Informal Fade Test > > Yup we¹ve been paying for all those US emissions for some time. Great > place > to go get a tan... > > > > From: David Whistance <david.whistance@...> > Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> > Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 19:49:20 -0000 > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> > Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Informal Fade Test > > > > > > I may be out of date but I think it is because they have a hole in the > ozone > layer above them. The ozone layer is supposed to filter out much of the > UV > light. > > David Whistance >
2006-12-07 by robert49brake
--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Ken Carney" <kcarney1@...> wrote: > > OK, I guess it's time for us to park the hole somewhere else for a while - > just so long as I can keep my 350hp Charger that goes real fast and makes a > cool sound...:)) The real problem is the leaking shaft seal in the Charger's air conditioning compressor that's been spewing CFCs into the ozone layer. That, and until recent laws in a few countries changed the habit, of dumping CFCs into the atmosphere instead of recycling them. Well then there was also idiot things like air horns that used CFCs for propellants.