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Re: [Digital BW] Re: PrintFIX PRO 2.0 with MIS UT7 inks

Re: [Digital BW] Re: PrintFIX PRO 2.0 with MIS UT7 inks

2006-11-30 by CDTobie@aol.com

In a message dated 11/30/06 12:15:14 PM, ausdlk@... writes:


> 
> How important is a custom profile, any profile, to printing in ABW mode with
> K3 inks?
> 

AWB is a non-ICC process; no profiles possible, not previews possible, no 
matching one device to another possible. Thats why I print my Epson B&W via color 
model using ICC profiles to control it...

C. David Tobie
Product Technology Manager
ColorVision Business Unit
Datacolor Inc.
CDTobie@...
www.colorvision.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: PrintFIX PRO 2.0 with MIS UT7 inks

2006-11-30 by Roy Harrington

ABW is only non-ICC in that Epson does not supply any grayscale ICC profiles
and none of the "biggies" in color management support grayscale profiling.

However the QTR-Create-ICC tool does all of that -- creates grayscale ICC
profile for use in softproofing and ICC printing to match the embedded profile
and the printer device.   This raises the ABW workflow to a complete ICC workflow.

Roy


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, CDTobie@... wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> 
> In a message dated 11/30/06 12:15:14 PM, ausdlk@... writes:
> 
> 
> > 
> > How important is a custom profile, any profile, to printing in ABW mode with
> > K3 inks?
> > 
> 
> AWB is a non-ICC process; no profiles possible, not previews possible, no 
> matching one device to another possible. Thats why I print my Epson B&W via color 
> model using ICC profiles to control it...
> 
> C. David Tobie
> Product Technology Manager
> ColorVision Business Unit
> Datacolor Inc.
> CDTobie@...
> www.colorvision.com
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Re: [Digital BW] Re: PrintFIX PRO 2.0 with MIS UT7 inks

2006-11-30 by CDTobie@aol.com

In a message dated 11/30/06 3:46:58 PM, roy@... writes:


> ABW is only non-ICC in that Epson does not supply any grayscale ICC 
> profiles
> and none of the "biggies" in color management support grayscale profiling.
> 
ColorVision chose to use full 3D Look UpTable profiling instead, as it offers 
so much more control. You could run PrintFIX PRO through the AWB mode, I 
suppose, but all you'd get is linearization. Thats all you can really do to AWB: 
linearize it, and take a snapshot of the result.
> 
> However the QTR-Create-ICC tool does all of that -- creates grayscale ICC
> profile for use in softproofing and ICC printing to match the embedded 
> profile
> and the printer device.   This raises the ABW workflow to a complete ICC 
> workflow.
> 
There would seem to be some rather large gaps there. Tonal control is 
missing, that still has to be done via the dartboard in AWB. Preview; does that cover 
tonalities, and by way of what tonal measurements? Wouldn't you have to 
profile every single tone of interest, and create a preview profile for each one, 
rather than having a 3D LUT profile that contains all possible tints and 
cross-tints in one profile? On the topic of cross-tints: I have found no method of 
creating them effectively in AWB. And tools for tinting and ramping? Again, I 
suspect this is being left to the dartboard. Gamut warnings? Not relevant. To 
me a complete ICC workflow also means I can match output on another media, or 
another printer, which is possible with 3D LUT profiles. I don't really see how 
this happens via AWB. So if a client loves a particular cross-tint, opps, no 
cross-tints... if they love a particular tint, how can I get that on another 
device or media, if its only available as an AWB value, which varies per media, 
and is only available on AWB-based devices?

C. David Tobie
Product Technology Manager
ColorVision Business Unit
Datacolor Inc.
CDTobie@colorvision.com
www.colorvision.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: PrintFIX PRO 2.0 with MIS UT7 inks

2006-11-30 by Roy Harrington

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, CDTobie@... wrote:
>
> 
> In a message dated 11/30/06 3:46:58 PM, roy@... writes:
> 
> 
> > ABW is only non-ICC in that Epson does not supply any grayscale ICC 
> > profiles
> > and none of the "biggies" in color management support grayscale profiling.
> > 
> ColorVision chose to use full 3D Look UpTable profiling instead, as it offers 
> so much more control. You could run PrintFIX PRO through the AWB mode, I 
> suppose, but all you'd get is linearization. Thats all you can really do to AWB: 
> linearize it, and take a snapshot of the result.

Sure, a grayscale workflow is fundamentally different than a color workflow.
I don't know whether or not PFP can do a grayscale workflow -- early on I used
some Eye-One's  i1Match software and it only sort of worked with grayscale data.

> > 
> > However the QTR-Create-ICC tool does all of that -- creates grayscale ICC
> > profile for use in softproofing and ICC printing to match the embedded 
> > profile
> > and the printer device.   This raises the ABW workflow to a complete ICC 
> > workflow.
> > 
> There would seem to be some rather large gaps there. Tonal control is 
> missing, that still has to be done via the dartboard in AWB. 

That's a characteristic of grayscale -- there's no color in the image file.

Preview; does that cover 
> tonalities, and by way of what tonal measurements? Wouldn't you have to 
> profile every single tone of interest, and create a preview profile for each one, 
> rather than having a 3D LUT profile that contains all possible tints and 
> cross-tints in one profile? 

That's true with all profiling -- if you change driver settings you must redo any 
profiles (or the correlary:  you can only use a profile for the same driver settings).


On the topic of cross-tints: I have found no method of 
> creating them effectively in AWB. 

Yes, AWB just doesn't support that.  It could but they chose not to.

And tools for tinting and ramping? Again, I 
> suspect this is being left to the dartboard. Gamut warnings? Not relevant. To 
> me a complete ICC workflow also means I can match output on another media, or 
> another printer, which is possible with 3D LUT profiles. I don't really see how 
> this happens via AWB. So if a client loves a particular cross-tint, opps, no 
> cross-tints... if they love a particular tint, how can I get that on another 
> device or media, if its only available as an AWB value, which varies per media, 
> and is only available on AWB-based devices?

If you want color functionality then yes you should use a color workflow.

But I think there's a very fundamental difference in using a grayscale workflow
versus a color workflow with reduced gamut.   I recently did a show of 20 or so
images.  As a show I wanted the all the images with the same split-tone hue.
I much prefer that all my image files are grayscale -- the split tone for me is a
printing issue not a source image file issue.    The notion of converting all the
files to RGB and trying to match the color tones isn't at all appealing.
Since the files are all grayscale I can print with any number of printers and/or inks
and get the same fundamental image -- be it neutral gray, sepia, split-tone etc.
This is much more akin to what B&W photography has always been.

Roy
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> 
> C. David Tobie
> Product Technology Manager
> ColorVision Business Unit
> Datacolor Inc.
> CDTobie@...
> www.colorvision.com
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Re: [Digital BW] Re: PrintFIX PRO 2.0 with MIS UT7 inks

2006-11-30 by Bruce Watson

Roy Harrington wrote:
> If you want color functionality then yes you should use a color workflow.
>
> But I think there's a very fundamental difference in using a grayscale workflow versus a color workflow with reduced gamut. I recently did a show of 20 or so images. As a show I wanted the all the images with the same split-tone hue. I much prefer that all my image files are grayscale -- the split tone for me is a printing issue not a source image file issue. The notion of converting all the files to RGB and trying to match the color tones isn't at all appealing. Since the files are all grayscale I can print with any number of printers and/or inks and get the same fundamental image -- be it neutral gray, sepia, split-tone etc. This is much more akin to what B&W photography has always been.
>
> Roy
And this is the way many (most?) of us would like to see it continue to be.

Thanks for making some sense Roy.

-- 
Bruce Watson
/
















/

Re: [Digital BW] Re: PrintFIX PRO 2.0 with MIS UT7 inks

2006-12-01 by CDTobie@aol.com

In a message dated 11/30/06 5:35:19 PM, roy@... writes:


> I recently did a show of 20 or so
> images.  As a show I wanted the all the images with the same split-tone hue.
> I much prefer that all my image files are grayscale -- the split tone for me 
> is a
> printing issue not a source image file issue.    The notion of converting 
> all the
> files to RGB and trying to match the color tones isn't at all appealing.
> Since the files are all grayscale I can print with any number of printers 
> and/or inks
> and get the same fundamental image -- be it neutral gray, sepia, split-tone 
> etc.
> This is much more akin to what B&W photography has always been.
> 
Which is why we build a "tinted profile" function into PrintFIX PRO 2.0. That 
means that users accustomed to printing grayscale images to a workflow that 
tints them for them on output can do exactly that. Just create any and all 
neutrals, tints, cross-tints, ramps to paper-tone etc, that you want; each is its 
own profile. Once you get them just the way you want them, you print your 
grayscale images to the profile of choice to get that same effect on all of them. 
As well as previewing your images to any of them, to be sure to get the one 
that best suits the set.

So I don't think this workflow is losing anything for traditional users, just 
offering other functions as well.

C. David Tobie
Product Technology Manager
ColorVision Business Division
DataColor Inc.
CDTobie@...
www.colorvision.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Grayscale Vs Color (was PFP with UT7)

2006-12-01 by Clayton Jones

Dave, Roy and CDavid,

I think this last exchange has been an important one:

--------------------------------------------------------
>...a grayscale workflow is fundamentally different than a color 
>workflow...
>
>...a characteristic of grayscale -- there's no color in the 
>image file.
>
>If you want color functionality then yes you should use a color 
>workflow.
> 
>...there's a very fundamental difference in using a grayscale 
>workflow versus a color workflow...The notion of converting all 
>the files to RGB and trying to match the color tones isn't at all 
>appealing.  Since the files are all grayscale I can print with any 
>number of printers and/or inks and get the same fundamental image 
>-- be it neutral gray, sepia, split-tone etc.
>
> This is much more akin to what B&W photography has always been.
--------------------------------------------------------

This fundamental difference is one which often gets lost in the
discussions.  This exchange has illustrated it very nicely and I hope
it has lots of readers.

In the "dark age" BW practitioners fell into some well defined and
understood categories, RC vs Fiber, for example.  Amongst the fine art
folks there were some finer gradations, such as Zoners vs Non-Zoners
and Full Zoners vs Modified Zoners.  And of course there were the
formats: Small - Medium - Large.  Individuals could, and did, fit into
various combinations of these, but my point is that they were all
well understood differences and it was relatively easy for beginners
to make conscious choices as they progressed along the road of
knowledge and experience.

My perception right now is that the distinction between grayscale and
color workflows is not so widely understood and articulated.  When a
beginner asks for advice on how to get started, the responses usually
focus on the printers, inks, RIPs, degree of complexity, cost, etc. 
Even though it is an important choice, this workflow distinction is
rarely ever mentioned (I guess we take it for granted).  I think if we
all were to make a point of adding references to this in our various
posts (whenever appropriate, of course) it would over time raise this
issue to a higher level of general awareness and understanding.


And here's another thought about Roy's final point:

>This is much more akin to what B&W photography has always been.

This really resonates with me because I was a fiber based/Modified
Zoner/mostly-medium-format darkroom practitioner for 20+ years and my
simplified ABW grayscale workflow is very much simpatico with that way
of conceptualizing and producing prints - I like it.  What I'm
wondering is how important this will be for someone coming into BW
printing with no previous darkroom experience?  Upon what basis will
this theoretical person make a choice between a grayscale or color
workflow?


Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Re: [Digital BW] Grayscale Vs Color (was PFP with UT7)

2006-12-01 by BKPhoto@aol.com

Clayton wrote: 
 
      >>What I'm wondering is how important this will be for someone coming into BW printing with no previous darkroom experience? Upon what basis will this theoretical person make a choice between a grayscale or color workflow? 
 
  You raise a very interesting point, Clayton; one that I've devoted considerable thought to because of the university curriculum we continue to develop at St. Edward's University (Austin, TX), and the workshops I teach, and I have a few observations to share with you. 
 First, the digital darkroom is fundamentally a color darkroom regardless of workflow, grayscale or color printing. Unless you're working on a monochromatic display, the grayscale pixels viewed on-screen are composed of RGB information. More importantly, all grayscale printing paths move data through the computer's and Photoshop's color engines, and ICC profiles are structured around color information. And, with rare exception, scanners and digital cameras are RGB devices. This is to say that some level of color expertise is important if a printer wants to move even marginally beyond plug and play (and most, sooner or later, do). 
 In the wet darkroom era, a black/white printer could easily avoid knowing much of anything about color theory. In the digital era, this would be a severly self-limiting mistake. Workflows are obviously important, but to concentrate on them at the expense of fostering an understanding of how an image making system works is potentially a mistake of the first order. 
 Essentially, photographers use technology to transform one kind of information into another. You can transform photonic energy into metal or dye particals using film and the wet darkroom; you can transform photonic energy into binary information and droplets of ink. It's been my experience that when young photographers (regardless of age) "get this", its easier for them to make informed decisions and choices. Creating workflows that support these decisions and choices is rightfully a result of this process. It puts the horse in front of the cart, in my opinion.
  
  Second, I've found--much to my delight--that even those students who do not have wet darkroom experience gain from learning the digital darkroom by analogy to traditional wet darkroom practices. At the least, this builds a common working vocabulary, which is very important. This commonality, by the way, extends well beyond technique to include how images are critiqued and discussed. 
 Third, at the risk of being too obvious I'd distinguish between a "photographer" and and "printer." The photographer doesn't necessarily need to make prints--and thus, never needs to know much about how beautiful prints are made. They can hire someone else--who does understand the system, and has mastered the workflows--to make their prints for them. This has always been true, and the shift from wet darkroom to digital printing doesn't necessarily effect this in any meaningful way. If a photographer wants to also be a printer, and so many do, their apprenticeship to craft will be dictated by their need or ambition. 
 Bill Kennedy K2 Press Author of "The Photographer's Guide to the Digital Darkroom"
  
 
  
  
        
________________________________________________________________________
Check out the new AOL.  Most comprehensive set of free safety and security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, free AOL Mail and more.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Grayscale Vs Color (was PFP with UT7)

2006-12-01 by CDTobie@aol.com

In a message dated 11/30/06 11:03:12 PM, cj@... writes:


> I think this last exchange has been an important one:
> 

Perhaps, but it, and the other "traditionalist" responses to it seem to miss 
the point that a color workflow supports all that and more. If you only want 
to use fixed, 2d slices out of a 3d process, that works great. You simply 
aren't limited to that.

C. David Tobie
Product Technology Manager
ColorVision Business Unit
Datacolor Inc.
CDTobie@...
www.colorvision.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re:Grayscale Vs Color (was PFP with UT7)

2006-12-01 by David Keenan

>Upon what basis will this theoretical person make a choice between a
grayscale
>or color workflow?

Clayton --

These recent threads have revealed to me how little I really know about what
I'm doing when it comes to digital b&w printing.

The prints I make are decent, maybe even pretty good, using ABW on a R2400.
I guess I am using a grayscale workflow that involves editing with CS2 and
printing TIFF files from Qimage.

The idea of using a color workflow (TIFFs saved in RGB mode) instead never
crossed my mind.

Adding another layer of software to print TIFF files saved in Qimage using
QTR (which I tried awhile back) was just too much. (Anyone else use this CS2
-> Qimage -> QTR workflow?)

I guess now I wonder how much better my prints could be if I explored other
methods, inks.

Dave.

-- 
My Photography: http://www.david-keenan.com
My Blog: http://www.david-keenan.com/euroblog


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

RE: [Digital BW] Grayscale Vs Color (was PFP with UT7)

2006-12-01 by John Moody

True, there are benefits, but what about any drawbacks?
Do you suggest that color-ICC is now working wonderfully, and there is no
reason to continue with "traditional" printing methods that reduce use of
color inks, precisely manage luminance, etc.

How many points, for each possible 2d slice is needed to implement a good 3d
workflow, vs. how many is practical with our current tools?

John
Show quoted textHide quoted text
-----Original Message-----
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of
CDTobie@...
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 9:31 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Grayscale Vs Color (was PFP with UT7)


In a message dated 11/30/06 11:03:12 PM, cj@...
<mailto:cj%40cjcom.net>  writes:

> I think this last exchange has been an important one:
>

Perhaps, but it, and the other "traditionalist" responses to it seem to miss
the point that a color workflow supports all that and more. If you only want
to use fixed, 2d slices out of a 3d process, that works great. You simply
aren't limited to that.

C. David Tobie
Product Technology Manager
ColorVision Business Unit
Datacolor Inc.
CDTobie@... <mailto:CDTobie%40colorvision.com>
www.colorvision.com



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Grayscale Vs Color (was PFP with UT7)

2006-12-01 by john dean

As a post modern "traditionalist" I think it is really sad how this )
site has become primarily a blog for companies and photo salesmen
selling the latest versions of their wares. It used to be totally
different and much more creative venu. Oh, well. I guess all good
things have to come to an end. RIP.

John





--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, CDTobie@... wrote:
>
> 
> In a message dated 11/30/06 11:03:12 PM, cj@... writes:
> 
> 
> > I think this last exchange has been an important one:
> > 
> 
> Perhaps, but it, and the other "traditionalist" responses to it seem
to miss 
> the point that a color workflow supports all that and more. If you
only want 
> to use fixed, 2d slices out of a 3d process, that works great. You
simply 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> aren't limited to that.
> 
> C. David Tobie
> Product Technology Manager
> ColorVision Business Unit
> Datacolor Inc.
> CDTobie@...
> www.colorvision.com
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Re: [Digital BW] Grayscale Vs Color (was PFP with UT7)

2006-12-01 by Bruce Watson

john dean wrote:
> As a post modern "traditionalist" I think it is really sad how this )
> site has become primarily a blog for companies and photo salesmen
> selling the latest versions of their wares. It used to be totally
> different and much more creative venu. Oh, well. I guess all good
> things have to come to an end. RIP.
>
> John
>   
Yep. Then we group members compound the problem by not defending the 
people who are actually bringing real world knowledge to this group.

I should point out that some vendors do share knowledge with the group 
as opposed to constant shilling for their products. But the few who come 
here to constantly promote their product paint all the vendors with the 
same brush. These few are killing the goose that laid the golden egg.
-- 
Bruce Watson
/















/

Re: [Digital BW] Grayscale Vs Color (was PFP with UT7)

2006-12-01 by CDTobie@aol.com

In a message dated 12/1/06 11:07:57 AM, moodymz3@... writes:


> True, there are benefits, but what about any drawbacks?
> Do you suggest that color-ICC is now working wonderfully, and there is no
> reason to continue with "traditional" printing methods that reduce use of
> color inks, precisely manage luminance, etc.
> 
There is certainly interest in continuing with both. I've been doing a fair 
amount of comparison between full color inks via the ICC approach, and 
ICC-compliant gray inks (MIS UT-3D) as a good way to seperate out what effects and 
results are based on color vs gray inks, and what on other components. Results 
there show a suprising amount of flexibility to both; though the ability to 
print both color and various tones of B&W on the same system would be the obvious 
selling point for the color inks, while the lack of color dots (their 
microscopic superiority, so to speak) would be the top virtue of the UT-3Ds. 

Precise luminance management is excellent with both, better than a lot of 
specialty B&W output that I see, so that wouldn't seem to be a negative point. I 
would have pointed out cost of entry as a limitation for this approach, but 
UT3Ds make it possible on sub-hundred dollar printers, so the only price issue 
remaining is the ICC-control system, in this case $499 for PrintFIX PRO. That 
would certainly be a barrier to many looking to enter the field for a minimal 
investment.
> 
> How many points, for each possible 2d slice is needed to implement a good 3d
> workflow, vs. how many is practical with our current tools?
> 
Don't know exactly what you mean by "points" but I am not seeing any need to 
measure more than the standard 225 patch color target, plus the 238 patch gray 
target for creating composite color/gray profiles for use with color ink, and 
the 225 patches alone, with grayscale inks. I'll see if I can distinguish any 
advantages to adding the extended grays for gray inks, but as I don't see 
anything yet that I would want adding that target to fix, I'm not in too much of 
a hurry to test fixing it.

C. David Tobie
Product Technology Manager
ColorVision Business Unit
Datacolor Inc.
CDTobie@...
www.colorvision.com




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

RE: [Digital BW] Grayscale Vs Color (was PFP with UT7)

2006-12-01 by Paul Roark

Bill Kennedy wrote, in part:

> First, the digital darkroom is fundamentally a color darkroom 
> regardless of workflow, ...

One could say this about traditional B&W photography also.  I think we risk
taking something away from "B&W" photography if we pile on too much color
theory too early on.

>... the grayscale pixels viewed on-screen are composed of RGB information.

And our eyes are fundamentally RGB devices, but I still see a "B&W" photo
when I look at one.

> ... all grayscale printing paths move data through the 
> computer's and Photoshop's color engines, and ICC profiles 
> are structured around color information.

The white light we exposed B&W film and paper with was also "RGB," and if
one really wanted to understand filters for both taking B&W and printing
with variable-tone papers, a little color knowledge helped.  On the other
hand, I'd guess that many B&W photographers simply knew that to darken the
sky a red filter was used, without really knowing much about color theory.

I did color and B&W -- film and wet darkroom printing -- and one of the
major attractions of B&W for me is the lack of color, with all its
distractions and complexities. 

By the way, here is a little "cheap sheet" image that helps visualize the
RGB, CMY, Lab, and LCh systems: http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/RGB+Lab.jpg 

...

>Second, ... even those students who do not have wet darkroom 
>experience gain from learning the digital darkroom by 
> analogy to traditional wet darkroom practices.

I agree.  The aesthetics of what makes a good B&W print don't really change.


>Third, at the risk of being too obvious I'd distinguish 
>between a "photographer" and a "printer." 
>The photographer doesn't necessarily need to make prints--...
> They can hire someone else--

This seems to have been much more common with color photography than with
B&W.  I think much more of the art of B&W is in the darkroom than is the
case with color photography.  I'm not a photography historian, but most of
the B&W masters seem to have done their own printing.  But I'm probably just
missing something here ...

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Re: [Digital BW] Grayscale Vs Color (was PFP with UT7)

2006-12-01 by CDTobie@aol.com

In a message dated 12/1/06 12:41:35 PM, paul.roark@... writes:


> >The photographer doesn't necessarily need to make prints--...
> > They can hire someone else--
> 
> This seems to have been much more common with color photography than with
> B&W.
> 

Indeed. We see in color, so color is obliged to be 'realistic' to a large 
degree. We don't see in black and white, so its more free to be artistic, to 
represent what we want it to, not what we see. I often make 'corrections' to a 
color image, but 'enhancements' to the same image in B&W. If dogs did 
photography, they would be obliged to make their B&W realistic, and would be free to be 
artistic with their color! <G>

C. David Tobie
Product Technology Manager
ColorVision Business Unit
Datacolor Inc.
CDTobie@...
www.colorvision.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Grayscale Vs Color (was PFP with UT7)

2006-12-01 by bwinkjet

John,

Just wanted to say I enjoy your comments on the Yahoo forums, this 
one included.  I also enjoy the comments of people who offer new 
ideas and promote different ways to reach that "perfect print."  This 
is one of the reasons I bother to read these forums.  Keep posting 
and don't get too disheartened if a little commercial stuff shows up.

Paul

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "john dean" 
<deanwork2003@...> wrote:
>
> As a post modern "traditionalist" I think it is really sad how 
this )
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> site has become primarily a blog for companies and photo salesmen
> selling the latest versions of their wares. It used to be totally
> different and much more creative venu. Oh, well. I guess all good
> things have to come to an end. RIP.
> 
> John

Re: [Digital BW] Grayscale Vs Color (was PFP with UT7)

2006-12-02 by dlruckus

I don't think you are missing much at all, Paul.
I also did and do both. I like both but I must say that, for me at
least, B&W has always been an exacting taskmaster. It's also very
rewarding when it works. The abstraction allows for expression beyond
just eyesight and opens more subjective interpretations IMO.

I also use tints and color based grays at times for particular
effects. One of the things I haven't seen mentioned in this thread as
yet however is the metamerism inherent in using too much color dot
structure. I know CD speaks in terms of microdots and invisibility but
I still see distinct differences, with varying lighting, between the
gray inks versus color based B&W. It may very well be that the newer
printers are helping to minimize the effect but it is still there.


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark"
<paul.roark@...> wrote:
> 
> I did color and B&W -- film and wet darkroom printing -- and one of the
> major attractions of B&W for me is the lack of color, with all its
> distractions and complexities. 
> 


Sort of like half of a photographer ;-} Maybe if someone else held the
camera it could be reduced to a third and then billed as a
collaborative effort. Or better yet just send someone else out to make
the photos entirely...oh! That's called an editor or art director or
something I think :)

Actually nothing wrong with that in the workaday world. I made
thousands of prints for others in the past. When it comes to objects
d'art though, I would think the partial party doesn't deserve the full
credit for the work. IMO of course.

No. You're missing nothing.
> 
> 
> >Third, at the risk of being too obvious I'd distinguish 
> >between a "photographer" and a "printer." 
> >The photographer doesn't necessarily need to make prints--...
> > They can hire someone else--
> 
> This seems to have been much more common with color photography than
with
> B&W.  I think much more of the art of B&W is in the darkroom than is the
> case with color photography.  I'm not a photography historian, but
most of
> the B&W masters seem to have done their own printing.  But I'm
probably just
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> missing something here ...
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>

RE: [Digital BW] Grayscale Vs Color

2006-12-02 by Paul Roark

>... One of the things I haven't seen mentioned in this 
> thread as yet however is the metamerism inherent in 
> using too much color dot structure. ...
> I still see distinct differences, with varying lighting,
> between the gray inks versus color based B&W. ...

The fewer color inks in the image, the better.  The 2400 Y = Carbon solution
really helps with that printer, yellow being probably the worst offender
when it comes to metamerism.  What I have not really tested is whether a
blended ink solution like the UT-3D inkset has less metamerism than an
inkset that uses non-blended inks, but with the least amount of the colors,
like the 5K+cm setup currently in my 2200.  I'll have to make a couple of
test strips and test that.  (I will be doing a fade test comparison of the
two approaches soon.)

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Re: [Digital BW] Grayscale Vs Color (was PFP with UT7)

2006-12-02 by CDTobie@aol.com

In a message dated 12/2/06 1:05:27 AM, dlruckus@... writes:


> I still see distinct differences, with varying lighting, between the
> gray inks versus color based B&W. It may very well be that the newer
> printers are helping to minimize the effect but it is still there.
> 
Indeed, for any printers that do not have a light gray ink (light light black 
in Epson's terminology) there is significant metameric shift with differing 
light sources. This is very much minimized with the K3 printers, and other 
'two-gray' printers. Should still see a bit more metameric consistancy with gray 
inksets, but I can't really distinguish it visually.

C. David Tobie
Product Technology Manager
ColorVision Business Division
DataColor Inc.
CDTobie@...
www.colorvision.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re:Grayscale Vs Color (was PFP with UT7)

2006-12-03 by Claude

I've noticed that when I convert from RGB (24 bit) to Grayscale
(8-bit) in Photoshop CS2 that the histogram shifts to the left, yet
the monitor image stays the same.

Has anyone found any differences between 2 prints from the same file
printed with their favorite method as Grayscale vs. RGB??

Please elaborate on specific settings, etc.

Claude

Re: [Digital BW] Grayscale Vs Color (was PFP with UT7)

2006-12-03 by Claude

Very interesting thoughts from both gentlemen. I always thought of B&W
as inherently abstract, to the human eye, since we do not see in
shades of gray.

Therefore B&W is essentially devoid of any color harmonies or
inconguities with the real 4 Dimensional world (time matters as well).
I have found that a B&W looks more "right" when converting from a
color world when there is a greater increase of end-to-end, as well as
local contrast. Since conversions of equal luminances of 2 spectrally
opposite colors remove the color contrast, we must use pre or post
processing color distortions to create a visually pleasing image WITH
those contrasts (if that is the intent). It's also why Tmax 100, Tech.
Pan, and Trix had completely different renderings of the same scene,
without filters, exposed at the same Zone I threshold and developed to
the same Contrast Index.

I know I'm generalizing here, but B&W, as a visual medium, from the
darkroom or lightroom, maintains it's inherent abstract properties
nonetheless. It seems that any minute deviations from perceived
"neutrality" is more readily apparent to the human tri-stimulus system
in the B&W image vs. the color one. Why else would we be so sensitive
to metameric issues?

This, in part, explains the intelligence and intensity of this board
and why some color scientists, technicians, and photographers
(including this one) have such an avid interest in keeping up with it.

Claude Jodoin
Tech. Editor
Rangefinder

RE: [Digital BW] Grayscale Vs Color (was PFP with UT7)

2006-12-03 by Mike Johnston

I think when it is very dark we only see in grays.
So possibly we do have some processing in our brains for B&W.
Mike J.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
-----Original Message-----
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Claude
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 5:09 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Grayscale Vs Color (was PFP with UT7)


Very interesting thoughts from both gentlemen. I always thought of B&W
as inherently abstract, to the human eye, since we do not see in
shades of gray.

Therefore B&W is essentially devoid of any color harmonies or
inconguities with the real 4 Dimensional world (time matters as well).
I have found that a B&W looks more "right" when converting from a
color world when there is a greater increase of end-to-end, as well as
local contrast. Since conversions of equal luminances of 2 spectrally
opposite colors remove the color contrast, we must use pre or post
processing color distortions to create a visually pleasing image WITH
those contrasts (if that is the intent). It's also why Tmax 100, Tech.
Pan, and Trix had completely different renderings of the same scene,
without filters, exposed at the same Zone I threshold and developed to
the same Contrast Index.

I know I'm generalizing here, but B&W, as a visual medium, from the
darkroom or lightroom, maintains it's inherent abstract properties
nonetheless. It seems that any minute deviations from perceived
"neutrality" is more readily apparent to the human tri-stimulus system
in the B&W image vs. the color one. Why else would we be so sensitive
to metameric issues?

This, in part, explains the intelligence and intensity of this board
and why some color scientists, technicians, and photographers
(including this one) have such an avid interest in keeping up with it.

Claude Jodoin
Tech. Editor
Rangefinder

Re: Grayscale Vs Color (was PFP with UT7)

2006-12-03 by l33ry

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, CDTobie@... wrote:
> We see in color, so color is obliged to be 'realistic' to a large 
> degree. We don't see in black and white

With all due respect, I think these statements are simply not true, at
least from a physiological standpoint. Although it's likely I'm
misunderstanding you, a matter of terminology and semantics.

You probably mean that we understand the world in color. (Although,
where does that leave the variously colorblind, btw?) But it's
interesting to note that, as far as how we see (as I understand it),
the human eye indeed has both black and white receptors (rods) and
color receptors (cones). Furthermore, not only do the rods greatly
outnumber the cones, they dominate, or exclusively sense, our
peripheral and low-light vision; the color receptors, on the other
hand, are fewer, concentrated at the center of our vision and are far
more dependent on illumination. One could argue that, in a sense (no
pun intended), black and white dominates our visual experience, even
though our perception of that experience is colored.

As for the notion that color is obliged to be "realistic", that's a
very slippery one. As I am sure you are well aware, our perception of
color is very dependent on expectations, color interactions, and
aesthetics, to name three random factors off the top of my head. Our
brains constantly play fast and loose with the colors we see to make
them "right". So "realistic" color is rather psychological and
subjective, and our idea of it is easily fooled; I'd say it's even a
bit of an oxymoron. It should be pretty obvious to anyone surveying
digital cameras (or film) that different people have rather different
ideas of what's "right" or "realistic" re color. Etc., etc.--I'm sure
you can think of many more examples.

And I don't think I buy that our expectation of "realistic" luminance,
or tonal value is any less demanding (or any less subjective) than our
expectations for colors. I have no doubt that it's more of a challenge
to meet/fool those expectations through artifice where color is
concerned, as opposed to mere tonality, but it does not follow that
because there are technical inequities, our expectations are unequal.
I don't think it's going too far to say that our expectations of color
in photographs or artwork are no more exacting or rigid than are our
expectations of tonal values in such situations.

Having said all this, I have an inkling that we consider black and
white more artistic and less representational (no argument there), not
just because of novelty or abstraction, but also because it resonates
with our peripheral, subliminal, and darker visual experience--the
world seen by the rods--the mysterious world seen in the corner of
your eye, in the shadows, in the darkness. By its nature, much good
still photography intrigues us by, among other things, showing us a
world we see but can't or won't notice or contemplate outside of
temporal experience. I think black and white goes a bit further, by
allowing our focused, conscious vision to see the world as it might be
seen by our peripheral, unconscious, and more primal vision.

Bob L

P.S. A nice overview of the human eye and how it works:
http://thalamus.wustl.edu/course/eyeret.html

Re: Grayscale Vs Color (was PFP with UT7)

2006-12-03 by Clayton Jones

Hello Bob L,

>Having said all this, I have an inkling that we consider black and
>white more artistic and less representational (no argument there), 
>not just because of novelty or abstraction, but also because it 
>resonates with our peripheral, subliminal, and darker visual 
>experience--the world seen by the rods--the mysterious world seen in 
>the corner of your eye, in the shadows, in the darkness. By its 
>nature, much good still photography intrigues us by, among other 
>things, showing us a world we see but can't or won't notice or 
>contemplate outside of temporal experience. I think black and white 
>goes a bit further, by allowing our focused, conscious vision to see 
>the world as it might be seen by our peripheral, unconscious, and more
>primal vision.


Very thoughtful and interesting post.  Thanks very much.

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Grayscale Vs Color (was PFP with UT7)

2006-12-03 by Ernst Dinkla

There's a much longer history of (artistic) monochrome 
representation of the world around us than the one with multi 
colors. Say  40.000 years against 4000 years. In no technology 
I can recall there has been multi-color first and monochrome 
later. So I think it must be baked in our genes meanwhile 
despite the fact that we see in colors. While it may be more 
abstract it isn't alien to our system, the translation is made 
without that abstraction coming to mind. Could well be that 
the latest generations bombarded with full color see it as 
more abstract than my generation and the ones before do, but 
you don't wash 40000 years from your system that fast.

This doesn't imply that there are no physiological reasons, we 
are much more sensitive to tonal differences and tonal 
contrast than to color differences and contrast.  If that 
hadn't been the case we wouldn't have accepted the primitive 
multi-color representations in early photography and movies at 
all, much of that was a B&W skeleton draped with one, two or 
three colors and they were the rage of their time.  In 
contrast: strip a modern movie of its tonal content and 
there's little left, much more abstract than we can get used 
to. A friend made some paintings like that 35 years ago, 
interesting but not for a wider public. There are other 
examples. Most sharpening techniques in digital color are 
based on tonal contrast only (for more reasons) and it works 
without question. I do not know the development of the visual 
system in species but I would be surprised if it didn't start 
somewhere as a monochrome one,  say 1 bit quality.

I just find it strange that B&W photography isn't set in that 
history of the monochrome representation of the world. It got 
its place there long before we started discussions about color 
control on B&W images.

Come to think of it. If I go to an old B&W movie like 
Polanski's Repulsion, Cul de Sac, Cassevete's Shadows, 
whatever from that period when color was available but not 
affordable for everyone, you don't think about abstraction 
after the first 10 seconds. Deneuve, Pleasence, become as real 
as they were in color movies.

Met vriendelijke groeten,  Ernst


|  Dinkla Grafische Techniek  |
|     www.pigment-print.com    |
|             ( unvollendet )            |

Re: [Digital BW] Grayscale Vs Color (was PFP with UT7)

2006-12-03 by CDTobie@aol.com

In a message dated 12/2/06 7:17:57 PM, claudej1@... writes:


> Since conversions of equal luminances of 2 spectrally
> opposite colors remove the color contrast, we must use pre or post
> processing color distortions to create a visually pleasing image WITH
> those contrasts
> 

Yes, I used to use a color image of cows in a pasture under lilacs as a 
sample image for students to convert to B&W. The B&W Holstein cows converted nicely 
by they would always be quite suprised when the lilacs diappeared into the 
foliage on conversion. Getting them to work with channel blending (or more 
recently CameraRAW channel adjustments) to bring out contrast between the lilacs 
and the foliage was a good way to get them thinking about the relationships 
involved.

Another tutorial I find effective is to slide the CameraRAW saturation slider 
all the way to desaturated. Then adjust the master curve to offer effective 
black and white global and local contrasts. Now resaturate the image, and see 
what those adjustments do to the color image...

C. David Tobie
Product Technology Manager
ColorVision Business Unit
Datacolor Inc.
CDTobie@...
www.colorvision.com

C. David Tobie
Product Technology Manager
ColorVision Business Unit
Datacolor Inc.
CDTobie@...
www.colorvision.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Grayscale Vs Color (was PFP with UT7)

2006-12-03 by CDTobie@aol.com

In a message dated 12/2/06 8:08:06 PM, wpajohnson@... writes:


> I think when it is very dark we only see in grays.
> So possibly we do have some processing in our brains for B&W.
> 

We have two entire image processing systems: Red, Green, and Blue sensitive 
cones for color, and monochrome rods for B&W. Being "unfiltered" the rods are 
more sensitive, so we depend on them for night vision, when our color vision 
fails. The rods see things as quite cool (blue), so when the two types of vision 
mix, the rods add a blue component. This is why at low room light you 
calibrate a low luminance CRT to a much yellower 5000k whitebalance ( to compensate 
for this blueness), and at moderate room lighting, you can calibrate a much 
brighter LCD to a 6500k whitebalance, for similar visual results. That is one of 
the factors that the ambient light feature in Spyder2PRO adjusts for...

C. David Tobie
Product Technology Manager
ColorVision Business Unit
Datacolor Inc.
CDTobie@...
www.colorvision.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Grayscale Vs Color (was PFP with UT7)

2006-12-03 by CDTobie@aol.com

In a message dated 12/2/06 8:29:49 PM, l33ry@... writes:


> One could argue that, in a sense (no
> pun intended), black and white dominates our visual experience, even
> though our perception of that experience is colored.
> 

In the dark yes, in the daylight, no... and I even dream at night in color, 
though that doesn't prove much, we have a webmaster than sometimes dreams in 
HTML... <G>

C. David Tobie
Product Technology Manager
ColorVision Business Unit
Datacolor Inc.
CDTobie@...
www.colorvision.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Grayscale Vs Color (was PFP with UT7)

2006-12-03 by Steve Gledhill

Not to sure how close this is to the primary purpose of this Group, nor 
quite what point I'm making - but for me this was fascinating ...

Ernst's comment reminded me of an experience in 1965 that left a lasting 
impression on me.  When I was 16 year old schoolboy I visited Russia for 
2 weeks (from the UK).  An amazing trip with many strong memories.  But 
the overwhelming memory was to discover that Russia was in colour!  It 
was almost a shock.  Everything I'd seen about Russia up to that point 
was via B&W TV and newspapers.  Colour TV was only just starting to 
appear at that time and there was no colour in newspapers for many more 
years.  B&W had been my norm as far as my notions of what the place 
would be like; indeed of what much of the world was like.  I wonder 
whether that 'grounding' in our formative years in B&W media experiences 
sets us older folks apart in some way from those who are younger for 
whom colour has been really been the norm in all of the media.  I doubt 
it - but I do wonder.

Steve Gledhill
http://www.virtuallygrey.co.uk/

Ernst Dinkla wrote:
>
> ...
>
> Come to think of it. If I go to an old B&W movie like
> Polanski's Repulsion, Cul de Sac, Cassevete's Shadows,
> whatever from that period when color was available but not
> affordable for everyone, you don't think about abstraction
> after the first 10 seconds. Deneuve, Pleasence, become as real
> as they were in color movies.
>
>
>
>  
Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com

Re: [Digital BW] Grayscale Vs Color (was PFP with UT7)

2006-12-03 by lou4photo

Hello John:
I don't get the sense from Mr. Tobie's input that he is giving a 
sales pitch as much as sharing information about a workflow that his 
products help accomplish. There are other ways to achieve a CM 
workflow without his products as I discovered back in March (see post 
#74990)and found it to be a viable approach for me though I knew it 
would not meet everyones needs. It's clear that often a "vendor" may 
slant his information toward the products they sell. My guess is, in 
addition to potential economic gains, they simply know alot more 
about those products and related workflows. One must do research and 
compare methods and products and make purchase selections based on 
that research but,so as long as shamless shilling isn't the intent, 
more information on methods that work and detailed info on products 
that work is good to know. On a more personal note, Mr.Tobie has been 
quite generous in sharing his extensive knowledge on printing with me 
and I have never bought a thing from him.
Lou Meluso
 

  DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "john dean" 
<deanwork2003@...> wrote:
>
> As a post modern "traditionalist" I think it is really sad how 
this )
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> site has become primarily a blog for companies and photo salesmen
> selling the latest versions of their wares. It used to be totally
> different and much more creative venu. Oh, well. I guess all good
> things have to come to an end. RIP.
> 
> John
>

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Grayscale Vs Color (was PFP with UT7)

2006-12-03 by CDTobie@aol.com

In a message dated 12/3/06 10:46:59 AM, stephengledhill@... writes:


> I wonder
> whether that 'grounding' in our formative years in B&W media experiences
> sets us older folks apart in some way from those who are younger for
> whom colour has been really been the norm in all of the media.  I doubt
> it - but I do wonder.
> 

In competitive architectural presentations, color was more or less mandatory 
on the West Coast of the US years earlier than it was on the East Coast. You 
could chalk this up to being less conservative, more exposed to modern media, 
and a number of other concepts, but whatever the reason, we reached a point 
where we just couldn't trust that a black and white presentation, even a lovely 
one, could grab the attention of potential clients the way that color could. 
Emotion was often thrown about as a factor, color added 'emotion' to 
presentations. Certainly architects were raised in a black and white tradition... but 
their clients may well have changed from that generation to the 
color-media-saturated generation(s) that followed; and that may have happened sooner on the 
West Coast, where younger people were in positions of power, than the East, where 
the previous generation continued to run things for longer.

But here we are many years later talking about the emotive nature of B&W. I 
find that the color versions of some of my AC/DC capable images are much more 
emotive, and grab people instantly; where as the black and white version 
appeals to a much more cerebral, contemplative audience, or even the same person 
later, after more time.


C. David Tobie
Product Technology Manager
ColorVision Business Unit
Datacolor Inc.
CDTobie@...
www.colorvision.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Grayscale Vs Color (was PFP with UT7)

2006-12-03 by CDTobie@aol.com

In a message dated 12/3/06 11:05:50 AM, lmeluso@... writes:


> I don't get the sense from Mr. Tobie's input that he is giving a
> sales pitch as much as sharing information about a workflow that his
> products help accomplish. ...
> 
We know what we work with, and what I work with is what I'm developing, so 
thats where my current thinking is centered, etc...

> On a more personal note, Mr.Tobie has been
> quite generous in sharing his extensive knowledge on printing with me
> and I have never bought a thing from him.
> 
Well, perhaps someday I'll develop something that will tempt you. Or not; 
that works too... I don't only shoot with photographers who use the brand of 
cameras I'm involved with either; I learn more detailed, specific stuff from those 
working with similar equipment, but broader stuff from those working 
differently.

C. David Tobie
Product Technology Manager
ColorVision Business Unit
Datacolor Inc.
CDTobie@...
www.colorvision.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Digital BW] Re: Grayscale Vs Color (was PFP with UT7)

2006-12-03 by john dean

Well said. The films of these guys are more "real" if you want to use
a 10 cent word that has no "real" value in the "real" artworld. There
is nothing missing in early Hitchcock. That is the highest form of
visual expression accomplished in photography in over 100 years. Most
people who are "real" artists and not techno marketers know that.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> 
> Come to think of it. If I go to an old B&W movie like 
> Polanski's Repulsion, Cul de Sac, Cassevete's Shadows, 
> whatever from that period when color was available but not 
> affordable for everyone, you don't think about abstraction 
> after the first 10 seconds. Deneuve, Pleasence, become as real 
> as they were in color movies.
> 
> Met vriendelijke groeten,  Ernst
> 
> 
> |  Dinkla Grafische Techniek  |
> |     www.pigment-print.com    |
> |             ( unvollendet )            |
>

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Grayscale Vs Color (was PFP with UT7)

2006-12-03 by Bob Frost

Ernst,

From what I have read, our predecessors had only black and white vision and 
rods in their eyes. At some time in our evolutionary history, cones 
developed and a color system was superimposed on top of the original B&W 
system (not in place of). So we have both. In dim light, our color vision 
doesn't work very well, so we see only luminance using the rods, while in 
the light the cones come into action overlaying color info, but the 
luminance measured during the day comes from summing the output of the rods 
and the cones, not just the output of the rods.

A good book that explains all this in relation to the use of color in art 
is:-

'Vision and Art: the Biology of Seeing' by Margaret Livingstone, Professor 
of Neurobiology at Harvard.

One quote: -

"Some aspects of visual perception - such as object recognition, face 
recognition, and of course color perception - depend heavily on color, 
whereas other aspects of vision - such as motion perception, depth 
perception, figure/ground segregation, and receiving positional 
information - are colorblind."

Bob Frost.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Ernst Dinkla" <E.Dinkla@...>


There's a much longer history of (artistic) monochrome
representation of the world around us than the one with multi
colors. Say  40.000 years against 4000 years. In no technology
I can recall there has been multi-color first and monochrome
later. So I think it must be baked in our genes meanwhile
despite the fact that we see in colors. ...............................

Re: [Digital BW] Grayscale Vs Color (was PFP with UT7)

2006-12-03 by Bob Frost

David,

Amazing how Spiders can creep into everything - even dreams!   Mind you, I'm 
not sure the strange things you mention (do you use spellcheck?) qualify as 
Spiders! My book on Spiders says they have eight legs, and eight eyes, and 
evolved about 400 million years ago. So perhaps your three-legged, one-eyed 
one is an early evolutionary dead-end!  ;)

Spiders only see in B&W (back on topic!), and the jumping spider vibrates 
its retina so that it can collect more info with fewer sensors in the eye! 
NASA is working on this idea apparently. A camera that vibrates its sensor 
to increase resolution, not just to get rid of dust or the 'shakes'.

Bob F.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
----- Original Message ----- 
From: <CDTobie@...>

and I even dream at night in color

We have two entire image processing systems: Red, Green, and Blue sensitive
cones for color, and monochrome rods for B&W. Being "unfiltered" the rods 
are
more sensitive, so we depend on them for night vision, when our color vision
fails. The rods see things as quite cool (blue), so when the two types of 
vision
mix, the rods add a blue component. This is why at low room light you
calibrate a low luminance CRT to a much yellower 5000k whitebalance ( to 
compensate
for this blueness), and at moderate room lighting, you can calibrate a much
brighter LCD to a 6500k whitebalance, for similar visual results. That is 
one of
the factors that the ambient light feature in Spyder2PRO adjusts for...

Re: Grayscale Vs Color (was PFP with UT7)

2006-12-03 by l33ry

Hi, Clayton,

Thanks, but it's an inspiring and provocative thread, don't you think?
Just throwing in my .02.

Been meaning to thank you for your R220 vari-tone setup and workflow,
which I only just discovered and started messing around with (serves
me right for not checking in here more frequently!). I had already
begun to mix warm and neutral carts, but I don't know when, if ever, I
would have stumbled on the idea of matching them to the color control
sliders!

Bob L

Re: [Digital BW] Grayscale Vs Color (was PFP with UT7)

2006-12-04 by Greg

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Frost"
<bob@...> wrote:

> NASA is working on this idea apparently. A camera that vibrates its
sensor 
> to increase resolution, not just to get rid of dust or the 'shakes'.
> 


Shouldn't be much work to be done, Jenoptik and Megavision (to name
two) have had this for years with the micro scanning backs that shift
the CCD by 1 pixel in up to each of the 4 directions, and results in
up to 16 captures with the resulting image being higher resolution and
true color (not what we get from the Bayer interpolation).

[Digital BW] Re: Grayscale Vs Color (was PFP with UT7)

2006-12-04 by l33ry

But then, why not? I imagine sitting in a dark cave watching
monochrome shadows dancing on a wall is also, as you say, "baked in
our genes". ;)

- Bob L

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Ernst Dinkla
<E.Dinkla@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> Come to think of it. If I go to an old B&W movie like 
> Polanski's Repulsion, Cul de Sac, Cassevete's Shadows, 
> whatever from that period when color was available but not 
> affordable for everyone, you don't think about abstraction 
> after the first 10 seconds. Deneuve, Pleasence, become as real 
> as they were in color movies.
> 
> Met vriendelijke groeten,  Ernst
> 
> 
> |  Dinkla Grafische Techniek  |
> |     www.pigment-print.com    |
> |             ( unvollendet )            |
>

[Digital BW] Re: Grayscale Vs Color (was PFP with UT7)

2006-12-04 by Clayton Jones

>But here we are many years later talking about the emotive nature of 
>B&W. I find that the color versions of some of my AC/DC capable 
>images are much more emotive, and grab people instantly; where as the 
>black and white version appeals to a much more cerebral, 
>contemplative audience, or even the same person later, after more 
>time.

Some years ago during an exhibition of my BW prints I received the
following two comments:

An elderly gentleman paying me his highest compliment: "I never knew
there was so much color in black and white"

Another, equally sincere but missing it: "Gee, these pictures are
really nice.  Too bad they're not in color"



Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Re: Grayscale Vs Color (was PFP with UT7)

2006-12-04 by Clayton Jones

Hello Bob,

>Thanks, but it's an inspiring and provocative thread, don't you think?

Yes it's really interesting.  What a great forum.



>Been meaning to thank you for your R220 vari-tone setup and workflow,
>which I only just discovered and started messing around with (serves
>me right for not checking in here more frequently!). I had already
>begun to mix warm and neutral carts, but I don't know when, if ever, I
>would have stumbled on the idea of matching them to the color control
>sliders!

It was sort of an accident.  If MIS hadn't sent me mislabeled carts I
probably wouldn't have thought of it.  It's a nice system, glad you
like it.


Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Re: Grayscale Vs Color (was PFP with UT7)

2006-12-05 by Rick Colson

Clayton -

Years ago I produced an ad for AGFA's product line, Rodinal, Portriga,
Brovira, etc., featuring an image in black and white of a grungy looking
circus clown with a cigarette hanging from his mouth and the headline was
"Put more color in your black and white."

Rick

Informal Fade Test

2006-12-05 by Kip Babington

When I switched to MIS EZ inks for my black and white printing, in the 
summer of 2004, I decided to do a little test of fade resistance 
comparing my new ink choice against my earlier inks, Lyson Quad Black 
(dyes).  I printed the same image twice on the same page, once with an 
Epson C84 using EZ pigments and once with a Canon S9000 using Lyson 
dyes.  I did this on two sheets, one of Ilford Heavyweight Matte, the 
paper I had been using with the Lyson inks, and one on Epson Enhanced 
Matte that I was going to use with the EZ inks.

I covered half of each page with a very thick (1/8 inch) piece of 
cardboard, so that half of each image was exposed and the other half 
covered, taped the package together and stuck it in a south-facing 
window on 8/4/04, here in Missouri (38 degrees North latitude.)  And 
forgot about it.  The pages got direct sunlight during the winter months 
and part of the spring and fall (don't know exact dates, though) but 
during the warmer months the eaves of the roof gave some shade from 
direct sunlight.  We do have trees in the yard, so even during the 
winter the images did not get direct sunlight all day.

I came across the pages yesterday, 12/4/06.  To my surprise, after 28 
months neither of the paper bases showed any difference between where 
they had been covered and where they had been exposed to light, although 
the EEM had yellowed very slightly overall compared to a fresh sheet 
from a recently purchased box.  I don't have any of the Ilford paper on 
hand to compare to.

The part of the Lyson images exposed to sun showed moderate lightening 
but no change in tone on the Ilford paper and more dramatic lightening 
and a strong reddish/brownish tone on EEM.  The EZ images showed NO 
fading or tone shift anywhere, on either paper.

Not a scientific test by any means, but it certainly reinforces for me 
the choice of EZ inks.  Most of my images end up bound into books and so 
have very little exposure to light.  The slight yellowing of the EEM 
paper base is only noticeable (by me) in a side-by-side comparison to 
fresh paper, and does not detract from the image.  Still, I'm trying 
some Red River matte paper this Christmas printing season, so I may try 
an EZ image on that paper in the window with an image on EEM for comparison.

Cheers,
Kip

Re: Informal Fade Test

2006-12-05 by Clayton Jones

Hello Kip,

Thanks for the good report.  It really speaks well for the MIS inks. 
I have an Eboni BO print in a similar wondowsill test and is 3+ years
now with no sign of fading.  Great stuff.

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Re: [Digital BW] Informal Fade Test

2006-12-06 by Richard Smallfield

At 04:50 AM Wednesday 12/6/2006, you wrote:
>I came across the pages yesterday, 12/4/06. To my surprise, after 28 
>months neither of the paper bases showed any difference between where 
>they had been covered and where they had been exposed to light, although 
>the EEM had yellowed very slightly overall compared to a fresh sheet 
>from a recently purchased box. 

I live in New Zealand where there is a higher than usual amount of UV light. My bedroom gets no direct sunlight and I've been putting up proofs on the wall with pins - and after only three weeks the paper has gone markedly cream compared with a fresh sheet. Most alarming - it's not an option for use in my country it would seem.

Richard 
--
http://smallfield.vze.com
http://photos.smallfield.vze.com (Photos web site)
http://warkworth.vze.com/ (Warkworth photo essay)


   "DO NOT WORRY ABOUT ANYTHING! Another 100 years 
   and we won't even care."
   --Narayani Diorio

Re: [Digital BW] Informal Fade Test

2006-12-06 by Steven Karafyllakis

Hi Richard;

Your experience is closer to mine were EEM is concerned, but I have a 
question-did you pin the prints directly to the wall with no backing 
or barrier, and what kind of paint is on the wall? I've had 
indications that latex paint for one, will yellow inkjet paper faster.

Steve Karafyllakis


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Richard 
Smallfield <r.smallfield@...> wrote:
>
> At 04:50 AM Wednesday 12/6/2006, you wrote:
> >I came across the pages yesterday, 12/4/06. To my surprise, after 
28 
> >months neither of the paper bases showed any difference between 
where 
> >they had been covered and where they had been exposed to light, 
although 
> >the EEM had yellowed very slightly overall compared to a fresh 
sheet 
> >from a recently purchased box. 
> 
> I live in New Zealand where there is a higher than usual amount of 
UV light. My bedroom gets no direct sunlight and I've been putting up 
proofs on the wall with pins - and after only three weeks the paper 
has gone markedly cream compared with a fresh sheet. Most alarming - 
it's not an option for use in my country it would seem.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> 
> Richard 
> --
> http://smallfield.vze.com
> http://photos.smallfield.vze.com (Photos web site)
> http://warkworth.vze.com/ (Warkworth photo essay)
> 
> 
>    "DO NOT WORRY ABOUT ANYTHING! Another 100 years 
>    and we won't even care."
>    --Narayani Diorio
>

Re: [Digital BW] Informal Fade Test

2006-12-06 by Richard Smallfield

At 02:15 AM Thursday 12/7/2006, you wrote:
>Your experience is closer to mine were EEM is concerned, but I have a 
>question-did you pin the prints directly to the wall with no backing 
>or barrier, and what kind of paint is on the wall? I've had 
>indications that latex paint for one, will yellow inkjet paper faster.

No backing, acrylic paint ... But! The same thing happens if they are just sitting on my desk which is plain wood.

Rich

--
http://smallfield.vze.com
http://photos.smallfield.vze.com (Photos web site)
http://warkworth.vze.com/ (Warkworth photo essay)


   We shall not cease from exploration
   And the end of all our exploring
   Will be to arrive where we started
   And know the place for the first time.
   --T.S. Eliot, Four Quartets, 'Little Gidding'

RE: [Digital BW] Informal Fade Test

2006-12-06 by Paul Roark

Richard Smallfield wrote:

>I live in New Zealand where there is a higher than usual 
>amount of UV light...

>... and after only three weeks the paper [EEM] has gone markedly 
> cream compared with a fresh sheet... 

Why would there be more UV in NZ?  Would this be latitude controlled?

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

RE: [Digital BW] Informal Fade Test

2006-12-06 by David Whistance

I may be out of date but I think it is because they have a hole in the ozone
layer above them.  The ozone layer is supposed to filter out much of the UV
light.

David Whistance
Show quoted textHide quoted text
  -----Original Message-----
  From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Paul Roark
  Sent: 06 December 2006 19:30
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Informal Fade Test


  Richard Smallfield wrote:

  >I live in New Zealand where there is a higher than usual
  >amount of UV light...

  >... and after only three weeks the paper [EEM] has gone markedly
  > cream compared with a fresh sheet...

  Why would there be more UV in NZ? Would this be latitude controlled?

  Paul
  www.PaulRoark.com



  


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

RE: [Digital BW] Informal Fade Test

2006-12-06 by Paul Roark

A factor that is hard to track is indoor air quality issues.  These can
affect the fade tests, I believe. 

 

Indoor air pollution has browned wet process RC prints of mine in the past.


 

In general, air borne acids and oxidizers, often in conjunction with
humidity, seem to accelerate paper and image deterioration significantly.
One thing that limits our ability to rely on Wilhelm or other accelerated
aging tests is that they are based on an ideal environment, which is
something we are not guaranteed.  So, indoor air quality may be an issue
that affects our various tests and results.

 

Spray coatings may be able to help with some air quality issues.  

 

What I'd like to see for archival purposes is encapsulated carbon - humidity
and pollution blocking barriers on both sides of an image sandwich.  Inside,
the coating companies need to compete for in terms of the zeolites, buffers
and other defensive strategies to capture the airborne hazards.

 

Paul

www.PaulRoark.com <http://www.paulroark.com/>  

 

 

  _____  
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Richard
Smallfield
Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2006 7:59 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Informal Fade Test

 

At 02:15 AM Thursday 12/7/2006, you wrote:
>Your experience is closer to mine were EEM is concerned, but I have a 
>question-did you pin the prints directly to the wall with no backing 
>or barrier, and what kind of paint is on the wall? I've had 
>indications that latex paint for one, will yellow inkjet paper faster.

No backing, acrylic paint ... But! The same thing happens if they are just
sitting on my desk which is plain wood.

Rich

--
http://smallfield. <http://smallfield.vze.com> vze.com
http://photos. <http://photos.smallfield.vze.com> smallfield.vze.com (Photos
web site)
http://warkworth. <http://warkworth.vze.com/> vze.com/ (Warkworth photo
essay)

We shall not cease from exploration
And the end of all our exploring
Will be to arrive where we started
And know the place for the first time.
--T.S. Eliot, Four Quartets, 'Little Gidding'

 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Informal Fade Test

2006-12-06 by Steve Kale

Yup we¹ve been paying for all those US emissions for some time.  Great place
to go get a tan...
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: David Whistance <david.whistance@btopenworld.com>
Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 19:49:20 -0000
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Informal Fade Test

 
 
 

I may be out of date but I think it is because they have a hole in the ozone
layer above them.  The ozone layer is supposed to filter out much of the UV
light.

David Whistance

-----Original Message-----
 From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint%40yahoogroups.com> ]On Behalf Of Paul
Roark
 Sent: 06 December 2006 19:30
 To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint%40yahoogroups.com>
 Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Informal Fade Test

Richard Smallfield wrote:

>I live in New Zealand where there is a higher than usual
 >amount of UV light...

>... and after only three weeks the paper [EEM] has gone markedly
 > cream compared with a fresh sheet...

Why would there be more UV in NZ? Would this be latitude controlled?

Paul
 www.PaulRoark.com



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Informal Fade Test

2006-12-06 by Greg

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@...> wrote:
>
> Richard Smallfield wrote:
> 
> >I live in New Zealand where there is a higher than usual 
> >amount of UV light...
> 
> >... and after only three weeks the paper [EEM] has gone markedly 
> > cream compared with a fresh sheet... 
> 
> Why would there be more UV in NZ?  Would this be latitude controlled?
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>

If testing at this time of the year the Earth is closest to the sun, 
and the Earth is tilted towards the Southern Hemishpere, so the 
sunlight is more direct on those continents than those of us that live 
in the northern half. They are approaching their longest day as we 
approach our shortest.

RE: [Digital BW] Informal Fade Test

2006-12-07 by Richard Smallfield

At 08:49 AM Thursday 12/7/2006, you wrote:
>I may be out of date but I think it is because they have a hole in the ozone
>layer above them. The ozone layer is supposed to filter out much of the UV
>light.

That is correct - apparently there is a hole (or a thinning?) in the ozone layer above us.

Richard

--
http://smallfield.vze.com
http://photos.smallfield.vze.com (Photos web site)
http://warkworth.vze.com/ (Warkworth photo essay)


   "It's all right to have butterflies in your stomach. Just get them 
   to fly in formation."
   --Rob Gilbert

RE: [Digital BW] Informal Fade Test

2006-12-07 by Ken Carney

OK, I guess it's time for us to park the hole somewhere else for a while -
just so long as I can keep my 350hp Charger that goes real fast and makes a
cool sound...:))
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Steve
> Kale
> Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2006 1:59 PM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Informal Fade Test
> 
> Yup we¹ve been paying for all those US emissions for some time.  Great
> place
> to go get a tan...
> 
> 
> 
> From: David Whistance <david.whistance@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 19:49:20 -0000
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Informal Fade Test
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I may be out of date but I think it is because they have a hole in the
> ozone
> layer above them.  The ozone layer is supposed to filter out much of the
> UV
> light.
> 
> David Whistance
>

Re: [Digital BW] Informal Fade Test

2006-12-07 by robert49brake

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Ken Carney" 
<kcarney1@...> wrote:
>
> OK, I guess it's time for us to park the hole somewhere else for a 
while -
> just so long as I can keep my 350hp Charger that goes real fast and 
makes a
> cool sound...:))

The real problem is the leaking shaft seal in the Charger's air 
conditioning compressor that's been spewing CFCs into the ozone layer.  
That, and until recent laws in a few countries changed the habit, of 
dumping CFCs into the atmosphere instead of recycling them.  Well then 
there was also idiot things like air horns that used CFCs for 
propellants.

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