Digital BW, The Print

I noticed that at Photo Expo and other demos,Epson makes their gallery 
prints, including b&w, on Premium Luster - a paper no one here seems to 
mention. Anyone have any comments?

Evan

most of the people here seem to prefer matte surfaces. On the 2400,  
premium luster is a really good paper.
I still like as much as Innova fibaprint f-type, and semi-matte.  
looks great behind glass as well as in the hand.
Gloss diferential is mimimal, about the same as the innova papers.  
Also it has no issues going thru the printer.
Comes in lots of sizes too, and not too expensive. I hear it has good  
numbers for fade resistance etc...
DM


On Jun 26, 2007, at 2:36 PM, Evan Wolarsky wrote:

> I noticed that at Photo Expo and other demos,Epson makes their gallery
> prints, including b&w, on Premium Luster - a paper no one here  
> seems to
> mention. Anyone have any comments?
>
> Evan
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I use Premium Lustre with excellent results with MIS UT-2 inks in a 1280 with QTR, and with Lyson Fotonic dyes on another 1280..In all cases I spray with 2 coats of  Premiere solvent based  protectant..

Eddie 

  From: Douglas meeuwsen 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2007 6:23 PM
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Epson Premium Luster


  most of the people here seem to prefer matte surfaces. On the 2400, 
  premium luster is a really good paper.
  I still like as much as Innova fibaprint f-type, and semi-matte. 
  looks great behind glass as well as in the hand.
  Gloss diferential is mimimal, about the same as the innova papers. 
  Also it has no issues going thru the printer.
  Comes in lots of sizes too, and not too expensive. I hear it has good 
  numbers for fade resistance etc...
  DM

  On Jun 26, 2007, at 2:36 PM, Evan Wolarsky wrote:

  > I noticed that at Photo Expo and other demos,Epson makes their gallery
  > prints, including b&w, on Premium Luster - a paper no one here 
  > seems to
  > mention. Anyone have any comments?
  >
  > Evan
  >

  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



   

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

It is my RC paper of choice!

Gene

I use Epson premium luster and semigloss exclusively for both B&W and
color. D-max is outstanding. I use it loosely mounted as well as dry
mounted. Totally satisfied.

I have never had a soul complain that the paper is RC by viewers or
buyers (photographers and non-photographers), but I do mat all of my
work and it is not in loose folios.

Also in our critique group that has been going for 50 years (started by
Minor White interestingly enough)many people use this paper exclusively
as well. Hope all of this helps you feel comfortable with your choice.

www.ScottJonesPhoto.com

I always liked the heft of EPL, and the price, but it apparently has 
OBAs unlike PG and PSG.  So I go for PSG these days.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Evan Wolarsky" 
<wolarsky@...> wrote:
>
> I noticed that at Photo Expo and other demos,Epson makes their 
gallery 
> prints, including b&w, on Premium Luster - a paper no one here seems 
to 

> mention. Anyone have any comments?
> 
> Evan
>

All of the Epson papers have OBAs except for UltraSmooth Fine Art.

Eric

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Andy"
<andyj1011@...> wrote:

>
> I always liked the heft of EPL, and the price, but it apparently has 
> OBAs unlike PG and PSG.  So I go for PSG these days.
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Evan Wolarsky" 
> <wolarsky@> wrote:
> >
> > I noticed that at Photo Expo and other demos,Epson makes their 
> gallery 
> > prints, including b&w, on Premium Luster - a paper no one here seems 
> to 
> > mention. Anyone have any comments?
> > 
> > Evan
> >
>

Hi, I'm kind of new in this amazing world of inkjet papers, what does
PG and PSG stand for?

Thanks,

Perla

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Andy"
<andyj1011@...> wrote:

>
> I always liked the heft of EPL, and the price, but it apparently has 
> OBAs unlike PG and PSG.  So I go for PSG these days.
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Evan Wolarsky" 
> <wolarsky@> wrote:
> >
> > I noticed that at Photo Expo and other demos,Epson makes their 
> gallery 
> > prints, including b&w, on Premium Luster - a paper no one here seems 
> to 
> > mention. Anyone have any comments?
> > 
> > Evan
> >
>

Check out the new Red River Ultrapro Satin 2.0. QUITE a bit warmer
(less OBA'S)than most luster papers I've been testing. It's acid free 
and I'm REALLY liking the look with K3 inks. It's running about 
$.30/sheet in a 100sht box, very reasonable. The 260gsm weight gives 
it a nice feel.
Lou

> > >
> >
>

Premium Glossy and Premium SemiGloss
Diana L. York
Hawk Mountain Archival Inkjet Papers for Photographs and Fine Art 
We Soar Above the Rest!
866-409-4598 or 866-526-5642
www.hawkmtpaper.com

-----Original Message-----
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
p_copernik
Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2007 9:32 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Epson Premium Luster

Hi, I'm kind of new in this amazing world of inkjet papers, what does
PG and PSG stand for?

Thanks,

Perla

In a message dated 7/3/2007 12:39:01 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
p_copernik@... writes:

Hi, I'm  kind of new in this amazing world of inkjet papers, what does
PG and PSG  stand for?

Thanks,

Perla



Epson's Premium Glossy and Premium Semi Gloss papers.
 
Richard (Brooklyn)



************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Lou

This sounds a lot like what I've been searching for-have you had a 
chance to test it for yellowing? And_would you mind posting a link to 
the exact page? Thanks

Steve Karafyllakis

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "lou4photo" 
<lmeluso@...> wrote:

>
> Check out the new Red River Ultrapro Satin 2.0. QUITE a bit warmer
> (less OBA'S)than most luster papers I've been testing. It's acid free 
> and I'm REALLY liking the look with K3 inks. It's running about 
> $.30/sheet in a 100sht box, very reasonable. The 260gsm weight gives 
> it a nice feel.
> Lou
> 
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

Hi Steve:
Here's the link:
http://www.redrivercatalog.com/browse/cat=1&prod=20.htm

After receiving a mini sampler of their new papers, I requested some 
full sized sample sheets of the new satin. I have only printed a 
couple of my test charts and a few test images but the early results 
are encouraging. My standard luster is Ilford Smooth Pearl which 
prints beautifully but is not listed as an acid-free base, and is 
quite bright white. My office is littered with paper sample boxes 
from various paper companies trying to find one that prints as nice 
as ISP but warmer,acid free AND reasonably priced. So far the RRUPS 
2.0 has been the best of the lot. About 2 shades warmer. RR states 
specifically that this paper has less OBA's. Most papers are either 
cooler or had Gloss DIff problems with K3 inks.  ISP has a 
unique "stipple" to its surface that hard to match. This paper 
doesn't match it exactly (more satin-like), but the ink lay down is 
quite attractive with minimal GD. I did not measure but Dmax seemed 
comparable to ISP. Anyhoo give them a shout and get some samples and 
let us know what you think. I'm going to order myself a 50sheet box 
($18.50) to test with further. 
Cheers,
Lou

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Steven 
Karafyllakis" <stevekphoto@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Lou
> 
> This sounds a lot like what I've been searching for-have you had a 
> chance to test it for yellowing? And_would you mind posting a link 
to 
> the exact page? Thanks
> 
> Steve Karafyllakis
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "lou4photo" 
> <lmeluso@> wrote:
> >
> > Check out the new Red River Ultrapro Satin 2.0. QUITE a bit warmer
> > (less OBA'S)than most luster papers I've been testing. It's acid 
free 
> > and I'm REALLY liking the look with K3 inks. It's running about 
> > $.30/sheet in a 100sht box, very reasonable. The 260gsm weight 
gives 

> > it a nice feel.
> > Lou
> > 
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

> Check out the new Red River Ultrapro Satin 2.0. QUITE a bit warmer
> (less OBA'S)than most luster papers I've been testing. It's acid free 
> and I'm REALLY liking the look with K3 inks. It's running about 
> $.30/sheet in a 100sht box, very reasonable. The 260gsm weight gives 
> it a nice feel.

Hi Lou, RR's UP Satin 2.0 _is_ a nice paper, but it's not acid-free.
The base itself is acid-free, but the coating is acidic. 

(The only paper that I'm aware of that takes PK inks, is completely
OBA-free and acid-free is Crane Museo Silver Rag.)

Eric

Pictorico Velvety is another that is acid free (base and coating).   
Nice surface but I'd prefer a heavier basis weight.
http://www.pictorico.com/category/13-Velvety-Paper.htm

Carl

On Jul 5, 2007, at 11:58 AM, Eric Chan wrote:

>> Check out the new Red River Ultrapro Satin 2.0. QUITE a bit warmer
>> (less OBA'S)than most luster papers I've been testing. It's acid free
>> and I'm REALLY liking the look with K3 inks. It's running about
>> $.30/sheet in a 100sht box, very reasonable. The 260gsm weight gives
>> it a nice feel.
>
> Hi Lou, RR's UP Satin 2.0 _is_ a nice paper, but it's not acid-free.
> The base itself is acid-free, but the coating is acidic.
>
> (The only paper that I'm aware of that takes PK inks, is completely
> OBA-free and acid-free is Crane Museo Silver Rag.)
>
> Eric
>
>
>
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Thanks, Lou, I checked it out and ordered some, I'll let you know 
what I think of it.

Steve Karafyllakis


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "lou4photo" 
<lmeluso@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Steve:
> Here's the link:
> http://www.redrivercatalog.com/browse/cat=1&prod=20.htm
> 
> After receiving a mini sampler of their new papers, I requested 
some 
> full sized sample sheets of the new satin. I have only printed a 
> couple of my test charts and a few test images but the early 
results 
> are encouraging. My standard luster is Ilford Smooth Pearl which 
> prints beautifully but is not listed as an acid-free base, and is 
> quite bright white. My office is littered with paper sample boxes 
> from various paper companies trying to find one that prints as nice 
> as ISP but warmer,acid free AND reasonably priced. So far the RRUPS 
> 2.0 has been the best of the lot. About 2 shades warmer. RR states 
> specifically that this paper has less OBA's. Most papers are either 
> cooler or had Gloss DIff problems with K3 inks.  ISP has a 
> unique "stipple" to its surface that hard to match. This paper 
> doesn't match it exactly (more satin-like), but the ink lay down is 
> quite attractive with minimal GD. I did not measure but Dmax seemed 
> comparable to ISP. Anyhoo give them a shout and get some samples 
and 
> let us know what you think. I'm going to order myself a 50sheet box 
> ($18.50) to test with further. 
> Cheers,
> Lou
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Steven 
> Karafyllakis" <stevekphoto@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Lou
> > 
> > This sounds a lot like what I've been searching for-have you had 
a 
> > chance to test it for yellowing? And_would you mind posting a 
link 
> to 
> > the exact page? Thanks
> > 
> > Steve Karafyllakis
> > 
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "lou4photo" 
> > <lmeluso@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Check out the new Red River Ultrapro Satin 2.0. QUITE a bit 
warmer
> > > (less OBA'S)than most luster papers I've been testing. It's 
acid 

> free 
> > > and I'm REALLY liking the look with K3 inks. It's running about 
> > > $.30/sheet in a 100sht box, very reasonable. The 260gsm weight 
> gives 
> > > it a nice feel.
> > > Lou
> > > 
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

I did notice they said that. At least they're bieng straight with us on 
that point. As for the remaining OBA's, some seem to hold up better 
than others. Photo Rag has OBA's, and and you pointed out many other 
papers, but a number of them don't yellow over time the way some RC 
papers do. I'd be curious to know if that's a function of the OBA's not 
burning off as quickly, or simply not yellowing as they do burn off.
For me the test is going to be the very scientific (NOT!) but brutal 
Florida Room test. It's warm, humid, and brightly (but indirectly) lit; 
if a paper makes it a month in here without yellowing, it's worth 
further testing. So far my champ in RC papers has been Sunset semi-
matte, sold by Lexjet; It has outlasted E-prem. semi-matte, which 
generally gets pretty high Wilhelm numbers. Problem is, the base color 
is very cold, in a particulalry bothersome cyan-blue direction, so I'm 
still looking.

Regards,

Steven Karafyllakis

> 
> Hi Lou, RR's UP Satin 2.0 _is_ a nice paper, but it's not acid-free.
> The base itself is acid-free, but the coating is acidic. 
> 
> (The only paper that I'm aware of that takes PK inks, is completely
> OBA-free and acid-free is Crane Museo Silver Rag.)
> 
> Eric
>

Why does anyone like "E" surface..which was specifically sold to labs
in the beginning as something to please your grandmother and allow
labs to use cheaper less-well-trained technicians...it didn't show
fingerprints. I remember that intro very clearly, when KODAK rolled it
out, followed closely by Ilford's disgusting (!)"Pearl" surface. 

Folks learned to love it, much like Paris Hilton, just as they got
used to film damage by minilabs...now they actively like that surface,
and even like RC paper...Red River's quite open about why they're
selling E.

On the other hand, their N surface RC is CHEAP, which is a big value.
Can't imagine it rivals alpha-cellulose matte for beauty, but again,
some folks do like RC for their own reasons. ECCCH!

John


 --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Steven
Karafyllakis" <stevekphoto@...> wrote:

>
> I did notice they said that. At least they're bieng straight with us on 
> that point. As for the remaining OBA's, some seem to hold up better 
> than others. Photo Rag has OBA's, and and you pointed out many other 
> papers, but a number of them don't yellow over time the way some RC 
> papers do. I'd be curious to know if that's a function of the OBA's not 
> burning off as quickly, or simply not yellowing as they do burn off.
> For me the test is going to be the very scientific (NOT!) but brutal 
> Florida Room test. It's warm, humid, and brightly (but indirectly) lit; 
> if a paper makes it a month in here without yellowing, it's worth 
> further testing. So far my champ in RC papers has been Sunset semi-
> matte, sold by Lexjet; It has outlasted E-prem. semi-matte, which 
> generally gets pretty high Wilhelm numbers. Problem is, the base color 
> is very cold, in a particulalry bothersome cyan-blue direction, so I'm 
> still looking.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Steven Karafyllakis
> 
>  
> > 
> > Hi Lou, RR's UP Satin 2.0 _is_ a nice paper, but it's not acid-free.
> > The base itself is acid-free, but the coating is acidic. 
> > 
> > (The only paper that I'm aware of that takes PK inks, is completely
> > OBA-free and acid-free is Crane Museo Silver Rag.)
> > 
> > Eric
> >
>

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "djon43" 
<djon43@...> wrote:
>
> Why does anyone like "E" surface..which was specifically sold to 
labs
> in the beginning as something to please your grandmother and allow
> labs to use cheaper less-well-trained technicians...it didn't show
> fingerprints. I remember that intro very clearly, when KODAK rolled 
it
> out, followed closely by Ilford's disgusting (!)"Pearl" surface. 
> 
> Folks learned to love it, much like Paris Hilton, just as they got
> used to film damage by minilabs...now they actively like that 
surface,
> and even like RC paper...Red River's quite open about why they're
> selling E.
> 
> On the other hand, their N surface RC is CHEAP, which is a big 
value.
> Can't imagine it rivals alpha-cellulose matte for beauty, but again,
> some folks do like RC for their own reasons. ECCCH!
> 
> John
> 
A bit stridently put, but I can understand that point of view 
perfectly well. Notice I said 'semi-matte', as in no stipple texture, 
which is my preference.  It makes a great deal of difference what 
your final presentation will be, as I'm sure you realize. I've found 
that under glass, surface texture is minimized, but a color mismatch 
with your matboard is still perfectly obvious, so I'm willing to try 
an E surface paper to get a better match. 

My favorite of the PK papers so far is Innova's Ultrasmooth Gloss 
which is billed as 'bright white' as well as very glossy. I consider 
it neither: it is warmer than most RC papers, and has a very pleasing 
soft gloss and texture that is to my eye as close to air-dried fiber 
glossy as I will ever need to come. But at 1.80 a sheet I will 
reserve it for my higher priced prints. I also have an ongoing need 
for cheap prints that will hold up well, though not necessarily to 
full archival standards. I'm still searching....

Steven Karafyllakis

P.S. SOME people may have gotten used to Paris Hilton and her 
shenanigans, but don't count me among them!!!

Steve...I'm confused...are you saying you're using Ultrapro Satin E in
some situations? Are you saying their E is NOT stippled or are you
using a different Ultrapro surface? 

More confusion...are you saying Innova's Ultrasmooth Gloss is an RC
paper or are you saying you like it better than RC papers? 

What printer/ink are you using? Have you compared to Kirkland Glossy?

I don't think Kirkland is RC (am I mistaken?). It's certainly among
the whitest papers I've used or seen, though not as white as my
favored cheap matte, the old Moab Kayenta, which is now being renamed
something else and enjoying a price drop. 

John  

(sorry for the hyperventillation about E... I do hate that surface
almost as much as "canvas," though I realize there's utility... :-)



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Steven
Karafyllakis" <stevekphoto@...> wrote:

>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "djon43" 
> <djon43@> wrote:
> >
> > Why does anyone like "E" surface..which was specifically sold to 
> labs
> > in the beginning as something to please your grandmother and allow
> > labs to use cheaper less-well-trained technicians...it didn't show
> > fingerprints. I remember that intro very clearly, when KODAK rolled 
> it
> > out, followed closely by Ilford's disgusting (!)"Pearl" surface. 
> > 
> > Folks learned to love it, much like Paris Hilton, just as they got
> > used to film damage by minilabs...now they actively like that 
> surface,
> > and even like RC paper...Red River's quite open about why they're
> > selling E.
> > 
> > On the other hand, their N surface RC is CHEAP, which is a big 
> value.
> > Can't imagine it rivals alpha-cellulose matte for beauty, but again,
> > some folks do like RC for their own reasons. ECCCH!
> > 
> > John
> > 
> A bit stridently put, but I can understand that point of view 
> perfectly well. Notice I said 'semi-matte', as in no stipple texture, 
> which is my preference.  It makes a great deal of difference what 
> your final presentation will be, as I'm sure you realize. I've found 
> that under glass, surface texture is minimized, but a color mismatch 
> with your matboard is still perfectly obvious, so I'm willing to try 
> an E surface paper to get a better match. 
> 
> My favorite of the PK papers so far is Innova's Ultrasmooth Gloss 
> which is billed as 'bright white' as well as very glossy. I consider 
> it neither: it is warmer than most RC papers, and has a very pleasing 
> soft gloss and texture that is to my eye as close to air-dried fiber 
> glossy as I will ever need to come. But at 1.80 a sheet I will 
> reserve it for my higher priced prints. I also have an ongoing need 
> for cheap prints that will hold up well, though not necessarily to 
> full archival standards. I'm still searching....
> 
> Steven Karafyllakis
> 
> P.S. SOME people may have gotten used to Paris Hilton and her 
> shenanigans, but don't count me among them!!!
>

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "djon43" 
<djon43@...> wrote:
>
> Steve...I'm confused...are you saying you're using Ultrapro Satin E 
in
> some situations? 

No, I haven't tried the Ultrapro yet in any surface. I'm currently 
using Lexjet Sunset semi-mat which has almost no texture (which I 
like) but is too cold, which I don't like. I'm saying, that 
considering most if not all of my work gets displayed under glass, 
all other things being (more or less) equal I'm willing to put up 
with the stipple of an E surface in exchange for a warmer base color 
that matches matt board better.
> 
> More confusion...are you saying Innova's Ultrasmooth Gloss is an RC
> paper or are you saying you like it better than RC papers?

No, of course its not an RC paper, I'm just noting that it has (to my 
eyes) the most attractive surface of any PK paper, RC or cotton.
> 
> What printer/ink are you using? Have you compared to Kirkland 
Glossy?

An R1800 with MIS K4 inks, and a 3800 with the OEM inks. Yes, I've 
tried Kirkland, who hasn't at this point? For B&W work it 
doesn't 'ring my bell' but I use a lot of it to proof my commercial 
work, with MIS dye inks in an R340.
> 
> I don't think Kirkland is RC (am I mistaken?).

Yes, it's an RC, it simply has a thicker cellulose base and thinner 
resin coating than some, so it feels less 'plasticky'

> It's certainly among
> the whitest papers I've used or seen, though not as white as my
> favored cheap matte, the old Moab Kayenta, which is now being 
renamed
> something else and enjoying a price drop. 

That bright-white is exactly what I'm trying to get away from, or at 
least the bluish bright-white of RC with excessive OBAs. We'll see 
how it turns out with the Ultrapro-who knows, maybe they have a semi-
matte or soft gloss in the pipeline at Red River.


Steven Karafyllakis

Hello All,

A big problem with these kinds of discussions is that there are so
many broad assumptions underlying the questions and statements.  For
example, there is the assumption that "OBAs make paper whiter", and
from that we get "all papers with OBAs will yellow with time".  In
fact, neither of these is necessarily true.  There are different kinds
of OBAs and they can have different effects and different longevity. 
HPR has OBAs in the coating but it is not a white paper.  It's bright,
but not white.  "White" and "bright" are not the same thing.

Diana York of Hawk Mtn Paper has stated (at least once in this forum
and several times during phone conversations with me when I was
researching my "Great Paper Chase" article) that for their white
papers they use a paper base that is already white to begin with and
doesn't need additional whitening.  Indeed, from my own experience
with Condor BW (very bright and white), when I compared a fresh sheet
with a print that had been hanging here unprotected for over a year, I
could tell that it had lost a bit of brightness, but had not yellowed.  

In addition, there are different kinds of coatings.  Some are clear
and the color we see is the paper color, and some are opaque and what
we see is the coating color.  All of these things affect what kinds of
OBAs are used, if any.

So there are issues of how much OBA is used, what type, and whether
it's in the paper, the coating, or both.  Hahnemuhle has stated that
the amount of OBAs in HPR (in the coating only) is very small.  I've
compared fresh HPR sheets with prints that are several years old, and
like Condor, are slightly less bright but not more yellow.  

When I was researching the article I had a number of phone
conversations and email correspondence with several paper vendors
about various subjects, including OBAs.  It's too much to repeat here,
but a summary of it (including a complete statement from Diana York) 
can be read in more detail in the Paper Chase article (#5 at the link
below - go to the Contents and look for the link to the OBA section).

Further, (this seems to need repeating now and then), I've got
darkroom prints from 20 years ago on papers such as Oriental Seagull
that are alpha cellulose OBA papers that are still very bright and
very white.

The point of all this is that it's a mistake to assume that OBAs are
always a kiss of doom and that all OBA containing papers will yellow,
even ones that are truly white papers. I know this makes everything
less convenient, but each paper needs to be evaluated individually.


Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Nice Job Clayton!!! 

 

Actually now that technology has grown ( Hahnemuhle Has 10 Yr Old technology
and Its still the standard) New Coatings and bases are being developed all
the time.. The Latest That I Understand is the they are putting pigment into
the pulp or Cotton ( Base) to make it whiter and its suppose to have even
longer longevity than OBA�s.. So Its changinging everday just stay foucesed
on the paper quality and Image and use Henry�s Guidline.. It�s the best we
have.. For sure

 

Cheers

 

Jim Doyle

 

Shades Of Paper

600 Deer Rd Unit 4

Cherry Hill NJ 08034

856-795-7780

HYPERLINK "http://www.shadesofpaper.com/"www.shadesofpaper.com

 

 

 

   _____  

From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Clayton
Jones
Sent: Friday, July 06, 2007 10:11 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Paper With OBAs

 

Hello All,

A big problem with these kinds of discussions is that there are so
many broad assumptions underlying the questions and statements. For
example, there is the assumption that "OBAs make paper whiter", and
from that we get "all papers with OBAs will yellow with time". In
fact, neither of these is necessarily true. There are different kinds
of OBAs and they can have different effects and different longevity. 
HPR has OBAs in the coating but it is not a white paper. It's bright,
but not white. "White" and "bright" are not the same thing.

Diana York of Hawk Mtn Paper has stated (at least once in this forum
and several times during phone conversations with me when I was
researching my "Great Paper Chase" article) that for their white
papers they use a paper base that is already white to begin with and
doesn't need additional whitening. Indeed, from my own experience
with Condor BW (very bright and white), when I compared a fresh sheet
with a print that had been hanging here unprotected for over a year, I
could tell that it had lost a bit of brightness, but had not yellowed. 

In addition, there are different kinds of coatings. Some are clear
and the color we see is the paper color, and some are opaque and what
we see is the coating color. All of these things affect what kinds of
OBAs are used, if any.

So there are issues of how much OBA is used, what type, and whether
it's in the paper, the coating, or both. Hahnemuhle has stated that
the amount of OBAs in HPR (in the coating only) is very small. I've
compared fresh HPR sheets with prints that are several years old, and
like Condor, are slightly less bright but not more yellow. 

When I was researching the article I had a number of phone
conversations and email correspondence with several paper vendors
about various subjects, including OBAs. It's too much to repeat here,
but a summary of it (including a complete statement from Diana York) 
can be read in more detail in the Paper Chase article (#5 at the link
below - go to the Contents and look for the link to the OBA section).

Further, (this seems to need repeating now and then), I've got
darkroom prints from 20 years ago on papers such as Oriental Seagull
that are alpha cellulose OBA papers that are still very bright and
very white.

The point of all this is that it's a mistake to assume that OBAs are
always a kiss of doom and that all OBA containing papers will yellow,
even ones that are truly white papers. I know this makes everything
less convenient, but each paper needs to be evaluated individually.

Regards,
Clayton

Info on black and white digital printing at 
HYPERLINK
"http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm"http://www.cjcom.-net/digiprnarts.-htm

 


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I've almost settled on Moab Entrada Natural as my paper of choice.

But that still leaves me with a question of heavy (300) or light 
(190).  I'm interested in your preferences.

If I were selling loose prints, just in clear bags without any mat or 
backing, then using heavy paper would make sense.  But I'm not.

Heavy paper takes longer to uncurl from the rolls, but seems to lie 
flatter.  The 190 seems to bubble up a little.  From my experience, 
the printing characteristics of the two papers appear to be identical.

- - -

Another question:  Is there another very inexpensive natural paper 
(no OBA), with roughly the same look and feel of the Entrada?  I'm 
thinking of using it for cards and some other uses ... not as a 
proofing paper (so it doesn't need to be identical).

Thanks much,


Arthur Fink


	A r t h u r  .  F i n k  .  P h o t o g r a p h y
	-------------------------------------------------
	Ten New Island Avenue         . land 207.766.5722
	Peaks Island, Maine 04108     . cell 207.615.5722
	www.arthurfinkphoto.com  . af@...

	More dance images  www.f64gallery.com/arthur.html

Clayton Jones wrote:
> The point of all this is that it's a mistake to assume that OBAs are
> always a kiss of doom and that all OBA containing papers will yellow,
> even ones that are truly white papers. I know this makes everything
> less convenient, but each paper needs to be evaluated individually.
Yup. What Clayton said.
--
Bruce Watson

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Eric Chan" 
<madmanchan2000@...> wrote:
>
> All of the Epson papers have OBAs except for UltraSmooth Fine Art.
> 
> Eric
 Actually EPSG does NOT have brighteners. This debate of course has 
been mentioned many times on this board. Sigh.............

Arthur

Check out Red River Aurora Natural.

Phil

or HawkMountain Merlin Natural

On Jul 7, 2007, at 1:47 PM, brouwerkent wrote:

> Arthur
>
> Check out Red River Aurora Natural.
>
> Phil

What is your point

Vinny
www.wulfsden.com


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "djon43"
<djon43@...> wrote:
>
> Why does anyone like "E" surface..which was specifically sold to labs
> in the beginning as something to please your grandmother and allow
> labs to use cheaper less-well-trained technicians...it didn't show
> fingerprints. I remember that intro very clearly, when KODAK rolled it
> out, followed closely by Ilford's disgusting (!)"Pearl" surface. 
> 
> Folks learned to love it, much like Paris Hilton, just as they got
> used to film damage by minilabs...now they actively like that surface,
> and even like RC paper...Red River's quite open about why they're
> selling E.
> 
> On the other hand, their N surface RC is CHEAP, which is a big value.
> Can't imagine it rivals alpha-cellulose matte for beauty, but again,
> some folks do like RC for their own reasons. ECCCH!
> 
> John
> 
> 
>  --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Steven
> Karafyllakis" <stevekphoto@> wrote:
> >
> > I did notice they said that. At least they're bieng straight with
us on 
> > that point. As for the remaining OBA's, some seem to hold up better 
> > than others. Photo Rag has OBA's, and and you pointed out many other 
> > papers, but a number of them don't yellow over time the way some RC 
> > papers do. I'd be curious to know if that's a function of the
OBA's not 
> > burning off as quickly, or simply not yellowing as they do burn off.
> > For me the test is going to be the very scientific (NOT!) but brutal 
> > Florida Room test. It's warm, humid, and brightly (but indirectly)
lit; 
> > if a paper makes it a month in here without yellowing, it's worth 
> > further testing. So far my champ in RC papers has been Sunset semi-
> > matte, sold by Lexjet; It has outlasted E-prem. semi-matte, which 
> > generally gets pretty high Wilhelm numbers. Problem is, the base
color 
> > is very cold, in a particulalry bothersome cyan-blue direction, so
I'm 

> > still looking.
> > 
> > Regards,
> > 
> > Steven Karafyllakis
> > 
> >  
> > > 
> > > Hi Lou, RR's UP Satin 2.0 _is_ a nice paper, but it's not acid-free.
> > > The base itself is acid-free, but the coating is acidic. 
> > > 
> > > (The only paper that I'm aware of that takes PK inks, is completely
> > > OBA-free and acid-free is Crane Museo Silver Rag.)
> > > 
> > > Eric
> > >
> >
>

Vinny, I made my point. An earlier response was coherent.



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Vincent Orlando"
<orlandovl@...> wrote:

>
> 
> What is your point
> 
> Vinny
> www.wulfsden.com
>