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Eboni-6 tones, etc.

Eboni-6 tones, etc.

2008-01-08 by pr_roark

I thought some might like to see a graph of the Lab A & B values that
I'm getting from a 21-step test strip printed with an R220 and the
Eboni-6 inkset on Premier Art Smooth BW paper.  I've posted  a Jpeg of
the Lab A & B graph, as well as small samples from 1600 dpi scans to
compare smoothness.

See http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/220-Eb6-PA-BW-Lab.jpg
<http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/220-Eb6-PA-BW-Lab.jpg>

The base for dilution here was 35% glycerin, 55% distilled water and 10%
Kodak Photo Flo.

Home darkroom work might take an interesting twist here.  Just like the
developer days, different mixes cause different reactions to the tone of
the print -- with pure carbon and just these safe, readily available
substances.  One tradeoff is also smoothness v. tone.   There are
interesing variables here that allow the tuning of a 100% carbon inkset
to a particular paper for a particular tone and printer.



Paul

www.PaulRoark.com <http://www.PaulRoark.com>





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Eboni-6 tones, etc.

2008-01-08 by Mark Gilvey

Hi Paul,

Please educate me on what I'm looking at or point me to information  
on what your are doing. I'm absolutely stunned by the photo on your  
home page so I suppose I could stand for some educating on what your  
are doing. I don't have a printer yet but my ears and mind are open.

Mark



On Jan 8, 2008, at 5:35 PM, pr_roark wrote:

>
> I thought some might like to see a graph of the Lab A & B values that
> I'm getting from a 21-step test strip printed with an R220 and the
> Eboni-6 inkset on Premier Art Smooth BW paper. I've posted a Jpeg of
> the Lab A & B graph, as well as small samples from 1600 dpi scans to
> compare smoothness.
>
> See http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/220-Eb6-PA-BW-Lab.jpg
> <http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/220-Eb6-PA-BW-Lab.jpg>
>
> The base for dilution here was 35% glycerin, 55% distilled water  
> and 10%
> Kodak Photo Flo.
>
> Home darkroom work might take an interesting twist here. Just like the
> developer days, different mixes cause different reactions to the  
> tone of
> the print -- with pure carbon and just these safe, readily available
> substances. One tradeoff is also smoothness v. tone. There are
> interesing variables here that allow the tuning of a 100% carbon  
> inkset
> to a particular paper for a particular tone and printer.
>
> Paul
>
> www.PaulRoark.com <http://www.PaulRoark.com>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Eboni-6 tones, etc.

2008-01-09 by pr_roark

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Mark Gilvey
<mark@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Paul,
>
> Please educate me on what I'm looking at ...

  http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/220-Eb6-PA-BW-Lab.jpg
<http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/220-Eb6-PA-BW-Lab.jpg>

My push for a 100% carbon pigment printing workflow for my 7500, as well
as a project to make a "workable" carbon inkset for a watercolorist,
ended up with an inkset that is not workable with water and a brush
(despite not having a binder in the dilution base), but much more
neutral and versatile than I expected.  I currently think this approach
will work in all of the large dot Epsons (all but the 1.5 pl models that
don't need the dilute inks -- like the 1800 3-MK workflow).

See http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Eboni-6.pdf
<http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Eboni-6.pdf>  for more information
about the inkset.

The original Eboni-6 is still in beta, but I'm publishing the
information that I currently think is needed for a home brew B&W digital
darkroom to develop.  This feels analogous to what many of us did with
B&W film developers, etc.  I think there is a small niche of B&W workers
who will enjoy the controls at this level, not to mention the results
and economy.

Paul

www.PaulRoark.com <http://www.PaulRoark.com>







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Eboni-6 tones, etc.

2008-01-09 by Mark Gilvey

Seems to me we made our own developer in Photography school once...or  
maybe we just added stuff to change it. Sounds like you are breaking  
uncharted ground here. I think I better keep it simple for now. I am  
interested in your pdf and your site though, I'll give it a read.

Mark


On Jan 8, 2008, at 7:05 PM, pr_roark wrote:

>
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Mark Gilvey
> <mark@...> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Paul,
> >
> > Please educate me on what I'm looking at ...
>
> http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/220-Eb6-PA-BW-Lab.jpg
> <http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/220-Eb6-PA-BW-Lab.jpg>
>
> My push for a 100% carbon pigment printing workflow for my 7500, as  
> well
> as a project to make a "workable" carbon inkset for a watercolorist,
> ended up with an inkset that is not workable with water and a brush
> (despite not having a binder in the dilution base), but much more
> neutral and versatile than I expected. I currently think this approach
> will work in all of the large dot Epsons (all but the 1.5 pl models  
> that
> don't need the dilute inks -- like the 1800 3-MK workflow).
>
> See http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Eboni-6.pdf
> <http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Eboni-6.pdf> for more information
> about the inkset.
>
> The original Eboni-6 is still in beta, but I'm publishing the
> information that I currently think is needed for a home brew B&W  
> digital
> darkroom to develop. This feels analogous to what many of us did with
> B&W film developers, etc. I think there is a small niche of B&W  
> workers
> who will enjoy the controls at this level, not to mention the results
> and economy.
>
> Paul
>
> www.PaulRoark.com <http://www.PaulRoark.com>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Eboni-6 tones, etc.

2008-01-09 by pr_roark

> I think I better keep it simple for now. 

MIS will probably market a version of it that will be very simple.  
It's in beta testing.  For now, most should stay with existing, 
established inksets.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Re: Eboni-6 tones, etc.

2008-01-09 by dlruckus

Hi Paul.
Can I assume correctly that the change in glycerin % from your old
ratio is in order to match a viscosity target?

Regards
Duane



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "pr_roark"
<pr_roark@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>> 
> The base for dilution here was 35% glycerin, 55% distilled water and 10%
> Kodak Photo Flo.
> 

> Paul
> 
> www.PaulRoark.com <http://www.PaulRoark.com>

Re: [Digital BW] Eboni-6 tones, etc.

2008-01-09 by Roger

Paul,

I'm new to this users list, so here's a couple questions:

1. What is BO printing?
2. On your chart, is the Y axis something like a difference from 
expected value in db, or some other unit?.

thanks,
Roger
Palmer Lake, CO

pr_roark wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> 
> 
> 
> I thought some might like to see a graph of the Lab A & B values that
> I'm getting from a 21-step test strip printed with an R220 and the
> Eboni-6 inkset on Premier Art Smooth BW paper. I've posted a Jpeg of
> the Lab A & B graph, as well as small samples from 1600 dpi scans to
> compare smoothness.
> 
> See http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/220-Eb6-PA-BW-Lab.jpg 
> <http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/220-Eb6-PA-BW-Lab.jpg>
> <http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/220-Eb6-PA-BW-Lab.jpg 
> <http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/220-Eb6-PA-BW-Lab.jpg>>
> 
> The base for dilution here was 35% glycerin, 55% distilled water and 10%
> Kodak Photo Flo.
> 
> Home darkroom work might take an interesting twist here. Just like the
> developer days, different mixes cause different reactions to the tone of
> the print -- with pure carbon and just these safe, readily available
> substances. One tradeoff is also smoothness v. tone. There are
> interesing variables here that allow the tuning of a 100% carbon inkset
> to a particular paper for a particular tone and printer.
> 
> Paul
> 
> www.PaulRoark.com <http://www.PaulRoark.com <http://www.PaulRoark.com>>
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
>

Re: Eboni-6 tones, etc.

2008-01-10 by pr_roark

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "dlruckus"
<dlruckus@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Paul.
> Can I assume correctly that the change in glycerin % from your old
> ratio is in order to match a viscosity target?
>


Yes.  I'm not sure why, but the last time I checked the 4:3 mix it was
too high.  I'd switched to a different source for the glyerin (San Jose
Chemical).  Hopefully there is not that much difference, but the new
source is said to be more pure.

Also, Photo Flo raises the viscosity.  So, adding it requires the
glyerin/water ratio to be changed.

Truth is, the Epson printers are rather tolerant of viscosity
differences.

Paul

www.PaulRoark.com <http://www.PaulRoark.com>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: Eboni-6 tones, etc.

2008-01-10 by dlruckus

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "pr_roark"
<pr_roark@...> wrote:
>> 
> Truth is, the Epson printers are rather tolerant of viscosity
> differences.
> 
Thanks. Yes, I have noticed that in my own experiments but didn't know
if it might be a bit more critical with printers such as the 1800 with
a much smaller dot size than mine.

Regards
Duane

Re: [Digital BW] Eboni-6 tones, etc.

2008-01-10 by pr_roark

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Roger 
<user1@...> wrote:
>
> Paul,
> 
> I'm new to this users list, so here's a couple questions:
> 
> 1. What is BO printing?

"Black ink only" printing; some Epson drivers have this option, and 
some people printed B&W that way.  I use medium format Technical Pan 
film to get the very smoothest images, so that workflow never 
appealed to me -- until I found the small 1.5 picoliter drop of the 
R1800 could, if used in 3 channels, produce a very smooth print.  
Some still call that "BO" printing, although it's very different than 
how the term has usually been used.  The Eboni-6 approach is even 
further away from "BO" in that it uses dilute inks as well as the 
standard Eboni matte black.


> 2. On your chart, is the Y axis something like a difference from 
> expected value in db, or some other unit?

The Y axis shows the Lab A and B units.  Positive Lab A values 
indicate red (more of a magenta-red to me), and negative Lab A values 
indicate green.  Positive Lab B values are yellow, negative blue.

Someone with more color expertise than I will have to explain how the 
units were derived, but suffice it to say that the higher the 
absolute values, the stronger the color.  

At Lab A and B = 0, the print is technially neutral.  Visually and 
perceptually, I think that is usually true also.  However, I think we 
usually want a positive Lab A to avoid a greenish look.  I'm not sure 
why we prefer that, but a slightly elevated Lab A was typical of the 
selenium toned silver prints many of us favored.  Note that the paper 
manufacturers also seem to have opted for a slightly positive Lab A 
value.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com


> pr_roark wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > I thought some might like to see a graph of the Lab A & B values 
that
> > I'm getting from a 21-step test strip printed with an R220 and the
> > Eboni-6 inkset on Premier Art Smooth BW paper. I've posted a Jpeg 
of
> > the Lab A & B graph, as well as small samples from 1600 dpi scans 
to
> > compare smoothness.
> > 
> > See http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/220-Eb6-PA-BW-Lab.jpg 
> > <http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/220-Eb6-PA-BW-Lab.jpg>
> > <http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/220-Eb6-PA-BW-Lab.jpg 
> > <http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/220-Eb6-PA-BW-Lab.jpg>>
> > 
> > The base for dilution here was 35% glycerin, 55% distilled water 
and 10%
> > Kodak Photo Flo.
> > 
> > Home darkroom work might take an interesting twist here. Just 
like the
> > developer days, different mixes cause different reactions to the 
tone of
> > the print -- with pure carbon and just these safe, readily 
available
> > substances. One tradeoff is also smoothness v. tone. There are
> > interesing variables here that allow the tuning of a 100% carbon 
inkset
> > to a particular paper for a particular tone and printer.
> > 
> > Paul
> > 
> > www.PaulRoark.com <http://www.PaulRoark.com 
<http://www.PaulRoark.com>>
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> > 
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > 
> >
>

Re: Eboni-6 tones, etc.

2008-01-10 by pr_roark

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "dlruckus" 
<dlruckus@...> wrote:
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "pr_roark"
> <pr_roark@> wrote:
> >> 
> > Truth is, the Epson printers are rather tolerant of viscosity
> > differences.
> > 
> Thanks. Yes, I have noticed that in my own experiments but didn't know
> if it might be a bit more critical with printers such as the 1800 with
> a much smaller dot size than mine.
> 

I think the 1800 might be more sensitive to several variables.  For 
example, with respect to varying the amount of wetting agent, on the 
1800 I was never able to get as smooth a print with my glycerin-Photo 
Flo base as the commercial bases.  On the 220 it's visually equal.  So, 
I really do not recommend my base for the 1800.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Re: [Digital BW] Eboni-6 tones, etc.

2008-01-10 by Roger

Paul, thank you very much. Very helpful.

All,

I am thinking these carbon inks are a solution to a major problem I've 
observed with the UltraChrome inks, to wit, even with UV protective 
glass, a few minutes in sun causes the ink to outgas a haze which 
condenses on the glass. The image changes in a way that resembles 
bronzing. This has happened to me at two different shows (Crested Butte 
and Teton Village) at relatively high altitude, but I took care to make 
sure the sun was only at a glancing angle--didn't seem to help. One 
additional piece of info is that both images were color.

Fortunately, the condensed haze evaporated after the framed print was in 
  the dark for a couple of days. These images had been printed for two 
months before they were framed.

1. Will the glycerin suspension in the Eboni-6 ink cause the same problem?
2. Are there 3rd party ink cartridges or CIS systems for the Epson 7600 
that will accomodate the Eboni-6 ink?
3. Is it a plausible idea to buy a used 7600 to dedicate to the Eboni-6 ink?

I've got a 4800 using the standard Epson ink and profiles that I'm quite 
pleased with, as long as the images are protected inside and away from 
the sun. I like to do some color printing, but the majority of my work 
is B&W.

Roger
Palmer Lake, CO
www.mindseyephoto.com


pr_roark wrote:
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
> <mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint%40yahoogroups.com>, Roger
> <user1@...> wrote:
>  >
>  > Paul,
>  >
>  > I'm new to this users list, so here's a couple questions:
>  >
>  > 1. What is BO printing?
> 
> "Black ink only" printing; ...
> 
>  > 2. On your chart, is the Y axis something like a difference from
>  > expected value in db, or some other unit?
> 
> The Y axis shows the Lab A and B units. Positive Lab A values
> indicate red (more of a magenta-red to me), and negative Lab A values
> indicate green. Positive Lab B values are yellow, negative blue.

whoa! I was way off in the concept!
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>

Re: Eboni-6 tones, etc.

2008-01-10 by dlruckus

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "pr_roark"
<pr_roark@...> wrote:
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "dlruckus" 
> <dlruckus@> wrote:
> >
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "pr_roark"
> > <pr_roark@> wrote:
> > >> 
> > > Truth is, the Epson printers are rather tolerant of viscosity
> > > differences.
> > > 
> > Thanks. Yes, I have noticed that in my own experiments but didn't know
> > if it might be a bit more critical with printers such as the 1800 with
> > a much smaller dot size than mine.
> > 
> 
> I think the 1800 might be more sensitive to several variables.  For 
> example, with respect to varying the amount of wetting agent, on the 
> 1800 I was never able to get as smooth a print with my glycerin-Photo 
> Flo base as the commercial bases.  On the 220 it's visually equal.  So, 
> I really do not recommend my base for the 1800.
> 
>
As I think back to my days in the dark it comes to mind that photoflow
had somewhat strange properties. It seemed to be susceptible to
forming long chains of gunk easily. A rinse using it had to be made
with distilled water and was quickly contaminated from ordinary
process wash water. I had a still because of the need for so much
distilled H2O. I wonder if something such as surfynal(sp?) might work
also. I believe I read somewhere that Kodak has stopped production of
Photoflow.

Duane

Re: [Digital BW] Eboni-6 tones, etc.

2008-01-10 by Mark Gilvey

I just got a comment from a member of the Epson Wide Format group  
that he places a sheet of paper on top of his prints and lets them  
"gasout" and replaces the paper when curls with a fresh piece...if  
understood correctly. I think he does this after spraying but I'm  
still waiting to hear back on that.

Mark


On Jan 9, 2008, at 10:55 PM, Roger wrote:

> Paul, thank you very much. Very helpful.
>
> All,
>
> I am thinking these carbon inks are a solution to a major problem I've
> observed with the UltraChrome inks, to wit, even with UV protective
> glass, a few minutes in sun causes the ink to outgas a haze which
> condenses on the glass. The image changes in a way that resembles
> bronzing. This has happened to me at two different shows (Crested  
> Butte
> and Teton Village) at relatively high altitude, but I took care to  
> make
> sure the sun was only at a glancing angle--didn't seem to help. One
> additional piece of info is that both images were color.
>
> Fortunately, the condensed haze evaporated after the framed print  
> was in
> the dark for a couple of days. These images had been printed for two
> months before they were framed.
>
> 1. Will the glycerin suspension in the Eboni-6 ink cause the same  
> problem?
> 2. Are there 3rd party ink cartridges or CIS systems for the Epson  
> 7600
> that will accomodate the Eboni-6 ink?
> 3. Is it a plausible idea to buy a used 7600 to dedicate to the  
> Eboni-6 ink?
>
> I've got a 4800 using the standard Epson ink and profiles that I'm  
> quite
> pleased with, as long as the images are protected inside and away from
> the sun. I like to do some color printing, but the majority of my work
> is B&W.
>
> Roger
> Palmer Lake, CO
> www.mindseyephoto.com
>
> pr_roark wrote:
> >
> >
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> > <mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint%40yahoogroups.com>, Roger
> > <user1@...> wrote:
> > >
> > > Paul,
> > >
> > > I'm new to this users list, so here's a couple questions:
> > >
> > > 1. What is BO printing?
> >
> > "Black ink only" printing; ...
> >
> > > 2. On your chart, is the Y axis something like a difference from
> > > expected value in db, or some other unit?
> >
> > The Y axis shows the Lab A and B units. Positive Lab A values
> > indicate red (more of a magenta-red to me), and negative Lab A  
> values
> > indicate green. Positive Lab B values are yellow, negative blue.
>
> whoa! I was way off in the concept!
>
> >
> > Paul
> > www.PaulRoark.com
> >
>
> 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Eboni-6 tones, etc.

2008-01-10 by Ernst Dinkla

Roger wrote:
> Paul, thank you very much. Very helpful.
> 
> All,
> 
> I am thinking these carbon inks are a solution to a major problem I've 
> observed with the UltraChrome inks, to wit, even with UV protective 
> glass, a few minutes in sun causes the ink to outgas a haze which 
> condenses on the glass. The image changes in a way that resembles 
> bronzing. This has happened to me at two different shows (Crested Butte 
> and Teton Village) at relatively high altitude, but I took care to make 
> sure the sun was only at a glancing angle--didn't seem to help. One 
> additional piece of info is that both images were color.
> 
> Fortunately, the condensed haze evaporated after the framed print was in 
>   the dark for a couple of days. These images had been printed for two 
> months before they were framed.
> 
> 1. Will the glycerin suspension in the Eboni-6 ink cause the same problem?
> 2. Are there 3rd party ink cartridges or CIS systems for the Epson 7600 
> that will accomodate the Eboni-6 ink?
> 3. Is it a plausible idea to buy a used 7600 to dedicate to the Eboni-6 ink?
> 
> I've got a 4800 using the standard Epson ink and profiles that I'm quite 
> pleased with, as long as the images are protected inside and away from 
> the sun. I like to do some color printing, but the majority of my work 
> is B&W.
> 
> Roger
> Palmer Lake, CO
> www.mindseyephoto.com

I have mentioned the possible advantage in "glass haze" 
reduction of BO printing with the 1800. The black ink used 
in total is frugal, the droplets very fine, 1.5 PL, so some 
evaporation may happen in mid air and the total will dry 
much faster. But the multi head BO printing mentioned so far 
has been with Eboni and that's a black for matte inks and 
matte papers are not problematic in frames with glass. At 
least in my experience and what has been reported on 
problems was with gloss papers. So a multi head PK BO may 
proof to be better at preventing "glass haze" but is 
off-topic in this thread.

The Eboni-6 is for matte as well I guess. But in this case 
translating it to PK black will not give the same advantage. 
With diluted PK in larger droplet machines and the use of 
glycerin for dilution I doubt that there is any advantage. 
I have always thought that glycerine's is the actual  haze 
medium and not the glycols. The last are probably involved 
in transporting the glycerines from the warm print  to the 
cool glass. The term BO for that inkset would be confusing 
too, there's less difference with normal quad ink sets other 
than that the pigment used is the same in all  inks and 
there is also a partitioning used in the driver while a true 
multi head BO will have parallel and equal  separation per head.

-- 
Met vriendelijke groeten,  Ernst


|  Dinkla Grafische Techniek  |
|     www.pigment-print.com    |
|             ( unvollendet )            |

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Eboni-6 tones, etc.

2008-01-10 by Tony Sleep

On 10/01/2008 dlruckus wrote:
> As I think back to my days in the dark it comes to mind that photoflow
> had somewhat strange properties. It seemed to be susceptible to
> forming long chains of gunk easily. 

Yes, I always found Photoflo a bit smeary/greasy if used at anything like 
the recommended dilution. I had lots of trouble with it, especially the 
more concentrated 500 version. I remember I had to throw away most of an 
expensive 5L container because it had formed soapy solids in little 
sheets. After that I switched to Ifotol wetting agent which was much 
cleaner working and behaved perfectly.

-- 
Regards

Tony Sleep
http://tonysleep.co.uk

Re: Eboni-6 tones, etc.

2008-01-10 by djon43

...as to Photo Flo, I'm always surprised when anybody has used it at
more than 3 drops per 500cc...that's been recommended forever. 


...as to glycerine...it will inherently evaporate completely. 

If it's required to adhere pigment to glossy paper, or if it's
required for gloss component of pigment, it will be a problem. 

If its serving a purpose other than short-term lubrication, it'll
actively be some sort of problem.

Re: Eboni-6 tones, etc.

2008-01-10 by Paul Whiting

Paul, I think you've answered a question that I've been thinking of
posting on this forum... my thread subject line would have read
something like 'There's BO printing and then there's also BO printing'!

I first encountered the term when learning this technique from Clayton
Jones, it can mean, as you say, printing only with the black
cartridge. But apparently it can also mean printing in black only but
using the K position and various color positions filled with different
shades of black.

Sometimes it's hard to follow a discussion because it's not always
clear to me, a newbie at this, which technique we're talking about.
Your comments here have helped clear this up for me, thank you!

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "pr_roark"
<pr_roark@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> 
> "Black ink only" printing; some Epson drivers have this option, and 
> some people printed B&W that way.  I use medium format Technical Pan 
> film to get the very smoothest images, so that workflow never 
> appealed to me -- until I found the small 1.5 picoliter drop of the 
> R1800 could, if used in 3 channels, produce a very smooth print.  
> Some still call that "BO" printing, although it's very different than 
> how the term has usually been used.  The Eboni-6 approach is even 
> further away from "BO" in that it uses dilute inks as well as the 
> standard Eboni matte black.

Re: [Digital BW] Eboni-6 tones, etc.

2008-01-10 by pr_roark

> Roger wrote:
> ...
> > I am thinking these carbon inks are a solution to a major problem
I've
> > observed with the UltraChrome inks, to wit, even with UV protective
> > glass, a few minutes in sun causes the ink to outgas a haze which
> > condenses on the glass. ...


> > 1. Will the glycerin suspension in the Eboni-6 ink cause the same
problem?

I'm not sure.  However, I think of outgassing as a glossy "barrier
paper" problem. In matte papers it does not happen, in part, I'm told,
because the paper holds the glycols -- virtually forever.  Cellulose
apparently has a great affinity for glycol, which I've been told is the
main culprit.  The barrier of polyethlene in glossy papers stops the
paper from accomplishing this.

Whether glycol is really the culprit as opposed to glycerin is somehting
I don't know.  However, glycerin is also the main ingredient in Epson
inks besides water, so I'd think the Eboni-6 mix would react the same as
UC inks.  When I have the time, I'll try to test this.

> > 2. Are there 3rd party ink cartridges or CIS systems for the Epson
7600
> > that will accomodate the Eboni-6 ink?

I would think the 7600 would be easy to find carts for.  MIS and some
others made CISs for the large format printers, but I've never used
them.  I just refill the carts myself.  I'd expect hte 7600 to produce
results much like the 220 results I posted -- on that Premier Art Smooth
BW paper.  Be sure to see how Eboni-6 looks of other papers at
http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Eboni-6.pdf
<http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Eboni-6.pdf>


> > 3. Is it a plausible idea to buy a used 7600 to dedicate to the
Eboni-6 ink?

Very plausible.  My original target was me 7500, with the 7600 #2.  My
goal was to get a large format 100% carbon printing workflow going
because the R1800 3-MK workflow is limited to 13" paper.  I need large
format prints for my display prints.



Ernst Dinkla wrote:

>
> So a multi head PK BO may
> proof to be better at preventing "glass haze" but is
> off-topic in this thread.

As an aside, I have not found a PK that will produce the relatively
neutral prints I'm aiming for.  It looks like, in addition to the form
of carbon used, the base contents are a major factor in the typical
carbon warm tone.  The more "stuff" in the base, the warmer the image. 
Much of what is going on with -- and into -- inks these days appears to
be to get a better glossy image.


>
> The Eboni-6 is for matte as well I guess.

Yes.

> I have always thought that glycerine's is the actual haze
> medium and not the glycols.

While we know glycerol (aka glycerin & glycerine) is in Epson inks, they
actually do not say there is any glycol in them.  It may be hidden in
the "proprietary" materiels that are disclosed.  However, since glycerol
is disclosed and is a major part of the Epson inks, I think the Eboni-6
will probably react much the same as the Epson inks with respect to
fogging.

> The term BO for that inkset would be confusing
> too, there's less difference with normal quad ink sets other
> than that the pigment used is the same in all inks ...

I agree.  The Eboni-6 is actually most like Piezo K6 setups.

Paul

www.PaulRoark.com <http://www.PaulRoark.com>







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Digital BW] Re: Eboni-6 tones, etc.

2008-01-10 by pr_roark

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Tony Sleep
<TonySleep@...> wrote:
>
> On 10/01/2008 dlruckus wrote:
> > ... photoflow ... seemed to be susceptible to
> > forming long chains of gunk easily.
>
> Yes, I always found Photoflo a bit smeary/greasy if used at anything
like
> the recommended dilution. ...

Photo Flo has glycol in it.  That could be where some this comes from. 
It feels a lot like the inks.  I always used it at less than the
recommended dilution.  The good news is that the 30+ year old negatives
I have where it was used are in perfect condition.

> After that I switched to Ifotol wetting agent which was much
> cleaner working and behaved perfectly.


It sounds like I -- we -- ought to try some of that.

Let me be clear that I hope others join me in exploring the possibility
of a darkroom style carbon ink mixing approach.  My position now with
respect to the MIS supplier is that the ball is in their court to match
what I've done.  I doubt they'll bother to come up with anything special
because this market is considered too small.  I hope they are wrong. 
I'm not sure how many old "Photogarphers Formulary" types there are out
there, but that is the B&W group I think this "Eboni-6" mixing will
appeal to.  From what I've seen so far, it appears to me that there is a
good chance we're going to have a similar niche in the inkjet era.  I
personally find the concept very appealing.

Paul

www.PaulRoark.com <http://www.PaulRoark.com>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Eboni-6 tones, etc.

2008-01-10 by John Labovitz

On Jan 10, 2008, at 8:28 AM, pr_roark wrote:

> Let me be clear that I hope others join me in exploring the  
> possibility
> of a darkroom style carbon ink mixing approach.

I'm with you!

My old 7500 has been gathering dust here for a while, and needs a  
thorough cleaning and workover.  Once that's done, though, I'm looking  
forward to trying out some of these techniques.

I've been using inkjet for photo printing for over a decade.  It's  
wonderful that the latest Epson/Canon/HP printers/inks/papers have  
reached a level where excellent color & monochrome prints are doable  
without the hassles we all used to go through.  At the same time, I  
dislike the attitude of consumerism, mass-production, and idealistic  
perfection.

Just like photographers are rediscovering film and alternative process  
printing, it's about time that inkjet-oriented photographers develop  
alternative methods that can be worked with the artistic process (eg,  
by hand).  I had a great time recently producing a set of images that  
were printed on InkAid-coated washi (rice) paper, and mounted on a  
clear mylar backing, to be hung against a sunny window for  
backlighting.  The inkjet printing itself was such a tiny part of the  
overall process, and it felt good to be doing so much with my hands  
besides clicking the mouse. ;)

Speaking of process, could you explain your physical setup of your  
testing environment?  In your whitepapers, you've explained a bit  
about testing density, etc.  I'm curious how you actually mix and load  
these inks into your printers.  Do you use funnel carts?  CIS  
systems?  Something else?  How do you clear out one test ink in  
preparation for another?  How do you handle the waste ink?

--John

[Digital BW] Re: Eboni-6 tones, etc.

2008-01-10 by pr_roark

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Tony Sleep
<TonySleep@...> wrote:
>...After that I switched to Ifotol wetting agent which was much
> cleaner working and behaved perfectly.


I just ordered some from B&H.  Even Samy's in L.A. didn't stock it any
more.

Among the wetting agents we used in the darkroom, Photo Flo 600 is going
to be the cheapest.  It's about 3 times more concentrated than the
consumer versions.  It's also toxic.  Whereas the consumer version --
Photo Flo 200 -- uses propylene glycol, the industrial strength 600 uses
ethylene glycol.  They use the same wetting agent p-tert-octylphenoxy
polyethoxyethyl alcohol.

I could not find the ingredients of Ilfotol.

Paul

www.PaulRoark.com <http://www.PaulRoark.com>





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Eboni-6 tones, etc.

2008-01-10 by Ajay Jhaveri

Paul
Will you be at the PMA show in Vegas at the end of the month

Ajay



Argentum Photo Lab, Inc
6650 Sunset Blvd
Hollywood, CA 90028

323.461.2775
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Thursday, January 10, 2008, at 11:19AM, "pr_roark" <pr_roark@...> wrote:
>
>
>--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Tony Sleep
><TonySleep@...> wrote:
>>...After that I switched to Ifotol wetting agent which was much
>> cleaner working and behaved perfectly.
>
>
>I just ordered some from B&H.  Even Samy's in L.A. didn't stock it any
>more.
>
>Among the wetting agents we used in the darkroom, Photo Flo 600 is going
>to be the cheapest.  It's about 3 times more concentrated than the
>consumer versions.  It's also toxic.  Whereas the consumer version --
>Photo Flo 200 -- uses propylene glycol, the industrial strength 600 uses
>ethylene glycol.  They use the same wetting agent p-tert-octylphenoxy
>polyethoxyethyl alcohol.
>
>I could not find the ingredients of Ilfotol.
>
>Paul
>
>www.PaulRoark.com <http://www.PaulRoark.com>
>
>
>
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>

[Digital BW] Re: Eboni-6 tones, etc.

2008-01-10 by pr_roark

John Labovitz wrote:
>
> On Jan 10, 2008, at 8:28 AM, pr_roark wrote:
>
> >  I hope others join me in exploring the  possibility
> > of a darkroom style carbon ink mixing approach.
>
> I'm with you!
>
> My old 7500 has been gathering dust here for a while, ...

Mine is now pumping out nice carbon prints. These old workhorses,
hopefully, have a lot of life left in them for these specialized
purposes.  I think these old machines are getting rather cheap also if
one can find them in good condition.

...

> Speaking of process, could you explain your physical setup of your
> testing environment?

It's actually rather simple and I'm sure from a chemist's perspective,
very crude and unsophisticated.

A good digital gram scales that can read to 0.1 gram is important.  To
mix large volumes of base, being able to read up to a reasonable level
is also important.  I'm using an OHaus Scout II that reads from 0.1 to
1200 grams.   http://www.americanweigh.com/
<http://www.americanweigh.com/>  shows a whole range of scales that
gives an idea of what one can get at different price points.  B&H has
one that they've probably found is appropriate for darkroom work.  Don't
limit the top side so much that you can't mix a decent amount of base at
a time.

My viscosity measuring device will particularly amuse the sophisticated.
http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Viscosity_Comparisons.pdf
<http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Viscosity_Comparisons.pdf>


>  Do you use funnel carts?

No.  First, I do my testing on a smaller desktop unit.  Then after I'm
convinced the mix is good enough I load a traditional 7500 cart.  They
can be rinsed and re-used easily.

For the desktop testing, the easy-refill types of carts for the 220,
1800, 2400, C88, etc. are the easiest to experiement with because they
can be re-used many times.  I used a 2200 for testing for a while, but
ran out of sponge-type carts, which cannot be rinsed and re-used
effectively.  I then started to test on the 1800, which worked OK, but
it is not very representative of most Epson printers due to the small
drop size.  Now I'm using a 220, which is close to ideal, but no longer
made.  The C88+ is still made, apparently.  That is a cheap and easy
test bed, even if not so good for seeing what densities will work best
in a hextone print, since the C88 is a quad.

Actually, though, I do most of my testing on just the LLK density,
because that is the one that affects the tone the most.  With a
magnifying hood, 1600 dpi scanner and spectro, I can see smoothness and
tones rather well with just that one mix.  When I have a mix that looks
very good, then I take it to the full hextone mix in the 220, profile
and print for a while to see if I like the results.

I've been using a hextone dilution system that gives me the
"traditional" densities we've been using for some time now.  However,
I'm thinking of abandoning that and going to one that is the easiest to
mix and would be easy to test and use on a quad, but with 2 densities
omitted, of course.

> How do you handle the waste ink?


That raises an interesting question that I don't know the answer to. 
Since I test with 20 gram mixes, there isn't that much volume.  The main
ingredients are water and glycerol, which should be harmless.  The
darkroom chemicals may be the worst.  I'm on a sewer system and dealt
with the city sewer people when I put in the darkroom.  They concluded
that small volumes of what I was using, including Photo Flo, were not a
problem.   The Microdol-X MSDS bothered them the most, and I had to
agree not to develop more than 3 rolls per day using that developer in
order to get the permit and dump the chemicals into their sewer system.
So, I think I'm probably within what the city seemed to think was
harmless to their system, but if I were doing this on a commercial
scale, I suspect I'd have to have a chemical disposal system that was
other than the sewer system.

Paul

www.PaulRoark.com <http://www.PaulRoark.com>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Eboni-6 tones, etc.

2008-01-11 by Tony Sleep

On 10/01/2008 pr_roark wrote:
> I could not find the ingredients of Ilfotol.

I am surprised it still exists, given it's an Ilford product.

There was another wetting agent called Cascade, which used to be very well 
regarded. I have no idea who manufactured it - May & Baker possibly, but 
if so I think they are long defunct (Amfix etc).

-- 
Regards

Tony Sleep
http://tonysleep.co.uk

RE: [Digital BW] Re: Eboni-6 tones, etc.

2008-01-11 by stephengledhill

Tony,
 
I'm sure Ilford would be distressed to see your comment. See their November
2007 product availability list.  P15 for Ilfotol -
http://www.ilfordphoto.com/Webfiles/200711714387916.pdf
 
I get the impression that both of the separated parts of the old company
(now IlfordPhoto/Harman and Ilford Imaging) are thriving - or at least have
adjusted to the new world of ink.
 
Steve Gledhill
 <http://www.virtuallygrey.co.uk/> http://www.virtuallygrey.co.uk

On 10/01/2008 pr_roark wrote:
> I could not find the ingredients of Ilfotol.

I am surprised it still exists, given it's an Ilford product.

There was another wetting agent called Cascade, which used to be very well 
regarded. I have no idea who manufactured it - May & Baker possibly, but 
if so I think they are long defunct (Amfix etc).
-- 
Regards

Tony Sleep



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: Eboni-6 tones, etc.

2008-01-19 by pr_roark

MIS (and its supplier) have matched my glycerin base with one that is
smoother.  The graph of the Lab A & B for the MIS base PA Smooth BW
print is at http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Eb-6-220-MIS-Base-PA-BW.jpg
<http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Eb-6-220-MIS-Base-PA-BW.jpg>   The
tones are essentiall identical to those obtained with the home brew
glycerin base.  See the URL below.  It's also said by the supplier to be
essentially the same as what I've had in the 7500 for months (working
perfectly) and to be compatible with Eboni.  It is not, however,
compatible with Ultrachrome inks.  So, they must be flushed from a
system before the dilute Eboni-6 inks are installed.

With this news, I'm putting my home brew base on the back burner, and I
expect MIS to be able to start supplying the inks soon.

I think this is very good news.

Paul

www.PaulRoark.com <http://www.PaulRoark.com>

> ...graph of the Lab A & B values that
> I'm getting from a 21-step test strip printed with an R220 and the
> Eboni-6 inkset on Premier Art Smooth BW paper. ...

>
> See http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/220-Eb6-PA-BW-Lab.jpg
<http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/220-Eb6-PA-BW-Lab.jpg>
> The base for dilution here was 35% glycerin, 55% distilled water and
10%
> Kodak Photo Flo.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: Eboni-6 tones, etc.

2008-01-19 by Sarah Renkes

That's excellent news. It's coming together much sooner than I expected. Will the inks be 
available only in bulk?

Thanks, Paul!

Sarah



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "pr_roark" <pr_roark@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> 
> MIS (and its supplier) have matched my glycerin base with one that is
> smoother.  The graph of the Lab A & B for the MIS base PA Smooth BW
> print is at http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Eb-6-220-MIS-Base-PA-BW.jpg
> <http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Eb-6-220-MIS-Base-PA-BW.jpg>   The
> tones are essentiall identical to those obtained with the home brew
> glycerin base.  See the URL below.  It's also said by the supplier to be
> essentially the same as what I've had in the 7500 for months (working
> perfectly) and to be compatible with Eboni.  It is not, however,
> compatible with Ultrachrome inks.  So, they must be flushed from a
> system before the dilute Eboni-6 inks are installed.
> 
> With this news, I'm putting my home brew base on the back burner, and I
> expect MIS to be able to start supplying the inks soon.
> 
> I think this is very good news.
> 
> Paul
> 
> www.PaulRoark.com <http://www.PaulRoark.com>
> 
> > ...graph of the Lab A & B values that
> > I'm getting from a 21-step test strip printed with an R220 and the
> > Eboni-6 inkset on Premier Art Smooth BW paper. ...
> 
> >
> > See http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/220-Eb6-PA-BW-Lab.jpg
> <http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/220-Eb6-PA-BW-Lab.jpg>
> > The base for dilution here was 35% glycerin, 55% distilled water and
> 10%
> > Kodak Photo Flo.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Re: Eboni-6 tones, etc.

2008-01-19 by pr_roark

Sarah,

>... Will the inks be available only in bulk?

That's what I've recommeded initially just to get them out there for 
whoever wants to try it.  They may even stick a "beta" label on the 
inkset at first.  Frankly, I'm not sure who'll be interested or what 
printers will use it most.  I was targetting the large format, but it 
appears to work in most desktop Epsons.  I have it in a 220 and 7500, 
and I used it for a while in a 2200. 


Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 


 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "pr_roark" 
<pr_roark@> wrote:
> >
> > 
> > MIS ... matched my glycerin base with one that is
> > smoother.  The graph of the Lab A & B for the MIS 
> > base PA Smooth BW print is at 
> > http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Eb-6-220-MIS-Base-PA-BW.jpg 

...

Re: Eboni-6 tones, etc.

2008-01-19 by john dean

Paul will this inkset work for neutral prints on glossy fiber media 
with 6 channel Epson machines? In other words, does it incorporate a 
glop channel and enough ks to achieve smooth tonal rendition?

john


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "pr_roark" 
<pr_roark@...> wrote:
>
> Sarah,
> 
> >... Will the inks be available only in bulk?
> 
> That's what I've recommeded initially just to get them out there 
for 
> whoever wants to try it.  They may even stick a "beta" label on the 
> inkset at first.  Frankly, I'm not sure who'll be interested or 
what 
> printers will use it most.  I was targetting the large format, but 
it 
> appears to work in most desktop Epsons.  I have it in a 220 and 
7500, 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> and I used it for a while in a 2200. 
> 
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com 
> 
> 
>  
> > 
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "pr_roark" 
> <pr_roark@> wrote:
> > >
> > > 
> > > MIS ... matched my glycerin base with one that is
> > > smoother.  The graph of the Lab A & B for the MIS 
> > > base PA Smooth BW print is at 
> > > http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Eb-6-220-MIS-Base-PA-BW.jpg 
> 
> ...
>

Re: Eboni-6 tones, etc.

2008-01-20 by pr_roark

Hi John,


> Paul will this inkset work for neutral prints on glossy 
> fiber media with 6 channel Epson machines?

Eboni will not stick to the FB glossies.  Sprays do work however.  For 
example, on Ilford Gold Silk Eboni-6 makes a very interesting warm 
print with a maximum Lab B of a bit over 9, and a dmax of 2.2 after 
being sprayed.  Unlike the straight Eboni in the 1800 3-MK approach, 
the dilute Eboni is very warm on glossy FB types of papers.

> In other words, does it incorporate a 
> glop channel and enough ks to achieve smooth tonal rendition?

There is no Glop channel in the normal setup.  I can't be sure whether 
it would even work.  On a modern printer 5 channels is more than 
enough.  Whether a channel of glop will nail down the Eboni sufficintly 
and will be compatible is uncertain.  

The main thing that held this project up is the MIS (and supplier's) 
concern that the base I found that worked so well here is not 
compatible with UltraChrome inks.  They are worried about people 
combining the diluted Eboni with UC inks.  So they wanted me to use 
some other bases that simply didn't do the job from my perspective.  (I 
think my progress with the home brew base may have changed their minds.)

I have not received a sufficient response from the supplier to know if 
this incompatibility extends to the MIS UT inks and glop.  The only 
clear answers I have is that the base is compatible with Eboni (which I 
know from my own testing) and it's not compatible with UC inks -- not 
even on the parking pad (reminds me of the Eboni-dye problems that 
occured with the 1280).

I might pull a cart in the 220 and give Glop a try.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Re: Eboni-6 tones, etc.

2008-01-22 by pr_roark

The word from MIS is that the base used for Eboni-6 is compatible with 
MIS PK and Glop.  I don't know at this point whether there is a glossy 
paper that prints neutral.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "john dean" 
<deanwork2003@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> Paul will this inkset work for neutral prints on glossy fiber media 
> with 6 channel Epson machines? 
> In other words, does it incorporate a 
> glop channel and enough ks to achieve smooth tonal rendition?
> 
> john
>

Re: Eboni-6 tones, etc.

2008-01-22 by john dean

I'm surprised you aren't putting something together for his Paul with
all these new papers out there, like the reasonably priced Ilford Gold
barita.

 As shown by that series of Leonard Jazz images that the guys at
IJC/OPM did, it certainly can work. They had a "custom mix" of the
UT-3D inks with a glop in an old Epson 9000 if memory serves me right,
and they were spectacular on Silver Rag. I believe the 30x40's in
edition are selling for 20 grand each.

They adjusted the color to match old Ilford silver paper and it was
just to the warm side of a pure neutral, similar to Cone's K7. I
believe they used 4 or 5 values and a glop. Must have been MIS PK. I
don't think he told me he was spraying them. I lost his email and I
can't even remember the guys name. Those prints had people talking.

There certainly has to be something more impressive on the horizon
than Epson K3 and AB mode on these more tonally dynamic papers.

john



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "pr_roark"
<pr_roark@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> The word from MIS is that the base used for Eboni-6 is compatible with 
> MIS PK and Glop.  I don't know at this point whether there is a glossy 
> paper that prints neutral.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>

Re: Eboni-6 tones, etc.

2008-01-22 by pr_roark

john dean" wrote:
>
> I'm surprised you aren't putting something together for 
> this Paul with all these new papers out there, like the
> reasonably priced Ilford Gold barita.

I have printed the Eboni-6 on Ilford Gold -- it's very warm, sort of 
gives a new meaning to the name "gold."

...
> IJC/OPM ... had a "custom mix" of the
> UT-3D inks with a glop in an old Epson 9000 ...
> spectacular on Silver Rag. 

I worked with them on the mix for a Roland, I believe.  One of the 
tricks was to get a dual quad going on the machine for speed.  Given 
the number of square yards the show involved speed is a primary 
criteria for IJC (Joe Berndt).  That's why he's switching to Canon.

The inkset he used did use inks from the 3D set, but those inks are 
glossy compatible and have color inks in them.  My trip right now is 
seeing what I can do with no color inks.  The concentrated Eboni in an 
1800 makes a beautifully neutral print on Ilford Gold when sprayed.  
But, that glossy paper also increases the contrast of the dots, so it's 
not as smooth as the matte papers with that approach.

If I can find a base and paper combo that print neutral dilute carbon 
on gloss, it'll be very interesting.  However, it'll take a while.  I 
think, however, I've now matched the commercial bases with respect to 
smoothness -- it's the surfactant that matters.  I'm now testing an 
industrial strength Dow product.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Re: Eboni-6 tones, etc.

2008-01-22 by john dean

I see, the more carbon in the mix the more difficult the gloss diff
and bronzing, and the more complex the chemestry becomes. So far I've
never seen anything black and white that I would regard as beautiful
on these papers either. The HP and Canon are pretty good but not in
the range of silver prints. Color yes, black and white..so so. But
then I haven't worked with those printers myself either.

j
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> If I can find a base and paper combo that print neutral dilute carbon 
> on gloss, it'll be very interesting.  However, it'll take a while.  I 
> think, however, I've now matched the commercial bases with respect to 
> smoothness -- it's the surfactant that matters.  I'm now testing an 
> industrial strength Dow product.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>

Re: Eboni-6 tones, etc.

2008-01-22 by Greg

>  However, it'll take a while.  I 
> think, however, I've now matched the commercial bases with respect to 
> smoothness -- it's the surfactant that matters.  I'm now testing an 
> industrial strength Dow product.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>


Have you tried mixing the carbon particles in with the GLOP. I'm sure 
it is not that easy, but you should be able to get carbon in the 1 or 2 
micron range. That and some 3 micron filter material to make sure that 
you don't have any chunks should get the job done.

You may of course need an ultrasonic mixer of some kind to get things 
in suspension properly, I really doubt it is as simple as dumping 
particles into the base and mixing with a common stirring device.

Re: Eboni-6 tones, etc.

2008-01-22 by john dean

That is interesting Greg. That is exactly what Epson did with the K3
inkset, add a small amount of gloss inhibitor to the light black
channel. But I'm sure if it was easy Epson would have eliminated all
the gloss differential. Maybe with their next inkset they will. Of
course we don't know all of what goes into these inks that effect this
and that.

j
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> Have you tried mixing the carbon particles in with the GLOP. I'm sure 
> it is not that easy, but you should be able to get carbon in the 1 or 2 
> micron range. That and some 3 micron filter material to make sure that 
> you don't have any chunks should get the job done.
> 
> You may of course need an ultrasonic mixer of some kind to get things 
> in suspension properly, I really doubt it is as simple as dumping 
> particles into the base and mixing with a common stirring device.
>

Re: Eboni-6 tones, etc.

2008-01-22 by dgattarino

We tried diluting Eboni with GLOP. It was a disaster. The carbon
particles precipitate very quickly (1-2 days). However, MIS PK tested Ok.

Cheers,

  Daniela





--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Greg"
<dfaprinting@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> >  However, it'll take a while.  I 
> > think, however, I've now matched the commercial bases with respect to 
> > smoothness -- it's the surfactant that matters.  I'm now testing an 
> > industrial strength Dow product.
> > 
> > Paul
> > www.PaulRoark.com
> >
> 
> 
> Have you tried mixing the carbon particles in with the GLOP. I'm sure 
> it is not that easy, but you should be able to get carbon in the 1 or 2 
> micron range. That and some 3 micron filter material to make sure that 
> you don't have any chunks should get the job done.
> 
> You may of course need an ultrasonic mixer of some kind to get things 
> in suspension properly, I really doubt it is as simple as dumping 
> particles into the base and mixing with a common stirring device.
>

Re: Eboni-6 tones, etc.

2008-01-22 by pr_roark

>... So far I've
> never seen anything black and white that I would regard as beautiful
> on these papers either...

The sprayed 1800 3-MK on Ilford Gold is very impressive.  I think many 
would say "beautiful."  It's a satin finish with high dmax and almost 
no artifacts.  But, the graininess will limit its appeal for small 
prints and smooth midtones.  At 13 x 19, it can probably blow away most 
other prints in a non-glazed or very well spot-lighted setting and from 
normal viewing distance.  A totally water and fingerprint proof finish 
that can be displayed un-glazed definitely has its place.  I have a 
couple similar prints bonded to foamcore that that, in terms of impact, 
can easily steal the show from my normal matte under glass images on 
the walls.

But, I really don't want to mess with these sprays and the other 
difficulties of glossy media.  Matte behind glass, overall, is still my 
choice.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Re: Eboni-6 tones, etc.

2008-01-22 by pr_roark

> Have you tried mixing the carbon particles in with the GLOP...

People are actually inkjet printing with carbon nanotubes.  There's a 
big world out there. 

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Re: Eboni-6 tones, etc.

2008-01-22 by pr_roark

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "dgattarino" 
<dgattarino@...> wrote:
>
> We tried diluting Eboni with GLOP. It was a disaster. 

Concur.  I tried that also.  At least MIS says it con't make a mess on 
the parking pad, but I'm probably going to stay a purist here and avoid 
it.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Ink Base update (was Eboni-6 tones, etc.)

2008-01-22 by pr_roark

By the way, this is the latest ink base mix I've made. 

http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Ink-mixing.pdf 

I recommend staying with what MIS will make available, but this one 
appears to work and is totally open source.  

It's a good exercise to explore these alternatives.  The substances and 
basic knowhow are available, and most old darkroom workers would be 
comfortable doing this.  On the other hand, how much benefit can come 
from fine tuning a base to a specific matte paper is uncertain. As with 
my previous experiences with custom mixing of film developers, when 
Kodak or other company came out with a good, pre-mixed solution, I used 
it.  (Anyone want my old ingredients to mix POTA developer?)

Frankly, matte papers printed with older printers are easy to deal 
with.  The more serious work here is going into trying to cure glossy 
substrate artifacts and dealing with increasingly fast printing speeds 
with smaller nozzles.

Of course, the most interesting thing I ran into is the inkjet printing 
of carbon nanotubes for various purposes.  Even totally new types of 
heads that can work faster and with smaller droplets have been 
developed.  But nanotubes actually appear to be able to be printed with 
Epson printers using a base similar to the one outlined above. 

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Re: Eboni-6 tones, etc.

2008-01-23 by Tyler Boley

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "john dean"
<deanwork2003@...> wrote:
>
>  I see, the more carbon in the mix the more difficult the gloss diff
> and bronzing, and the more complex the chemestry becomes. So far I've
> never seen anything black and white that I would regard as beautiful
> on these papers either. The HP and Canon are pretty good but not in
> the range of silver prints....

well, you haven't gotten that package I'm sending yet...
Sorry, couldn't resist.
Tyler

Re: Eboni-6 tones, etc.

2008-01-23 by Greg

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "pr_roark"
<pr_roark@...> wrote:
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "dgattarino" 
> <dgattarino@> wrote:
> >
> > We tried diluting Eboni with GLOP. It was a disaster. 
> 
> Concur.  I tried that also.  At least MIS says it con't make a mess on 
> the parking pad, but I'm probably going to stay a purist here and avoid 
> it.
> 


Diluting Eboni with GLOP is not a good idea! Same goes for diluting
the glossy inks with the non-glossy base! Straight from the guy that
mixes these inks at Image Specialists (Walter).

If you were to try this you would really need to start with the dry
pigment and add it to the GLOP. There is probably a bigger world
market for the dry pigments than there is the inkjet bases. The
problem would be getting it in the smaller sizes. And I'm sure it is
not as simple as just mixing carbon with a base and calling it ink,
especially for the lighter shades. I'm not sure how large the
particles from Lamp Black really are,  but if it was smaller than 3
microns, it should go through the older printers just fine.

And if you really want pure carbon in a glossy base, you are probably
going to have to mix it yourself. And even then the binder may or may
not work depending on the type of carbon particle you are using.

Re: Eboni-6 tones, etc.

2008-01-23 by pr_roark

>... if you really want pure carbon in a glossy base, you are probably
> going to have to mix it yourself. And even then the binder may or may
> not work depending on the type of carbon particle you are using.
>

I think the IS glossy black PK and LK that MIS sells are pure carbon.

The "problem" with them from my perspective is that they are also very 
warm.  The question is whether there is a way to get a neutral glossy 
100% carbon print.  I can with a spray and the 3-MK process, but I have 
not found a glossy paper that prints neutrally with the dilute Eboni-6 
approach.

The question was also whether Glop could be in another jet and used 
to "nail down" or fix the Eboni.  Even though Glop is not appropriate 
as a base for Eboni, MIS says that in a separate jet it will not cause 
problems.  Glop has been used in the 1800 with K4 (glossy) inks also 
installed for some time, and there do not appear to have been serious 
problems.

So, if a neutral glossy paper can be found, then we have a shot at Glop 
being able to fix it, particularly if there is a PK in the printer so 
that the 100% patch does not have to be fixed with the Glop.  The 
neutral glossy paper with dilute Eboni is the main issue and the thing 
I'll be looking for.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Re: Eboni-6 tones, etc.

2008-01-23 by Greg

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "pr_roark"  not > 
> The "problem" with them from my perspective is that they are also 
very 
> warm.  

I think it is time to look into different forms of the carbon matrix. 
There most be a form of pure carbon that does not have the too warm 
coloration. We've joked about this in the past, but it may very well 
prove to be the solution. The Nanotubes is an interesting idea that I 
still need to research, but I'm not sure if they are able to produce 
the quantity needed for an ink pigment in mass scale. Buckey Balls 
still seems like a good idea to me, but until they can be made in 
enough quantity and tried we may never know.

Re: Eboni-6 tones, etc. - neutral black

2008-01-23 by john dean

Epson has done just that in their 11880. The black inks are no longer
brown. This has a friend of mine jumping for joy with his.

This will certainly trickle down to Epson's other machines this fall.
Hp's Z3100 black channels similarly are neutral. This is a new acrylic
encapsulated formulaton also with better dmax than Epson because it
also combines their photo black if needed. What they have in the mix I
don't think anyone knows. Saying they have "dye" in the black is a
chemical over simplificatioin these days. At any rate the Vivera
Wilhelm permenence is rated at >275 years in daylight under glass
without additonal uv coating.

Don't know how the 11880 is going to rate becaue the numbers aren't up
yet. The 9880 used the original blacks from everything I've heard?

John





--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Greg"
<dfaprinting@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "pr_roark"  not > 
> > The "problem" with them from my perspective is that they are also 
> very 
> > warm.  
> 
> I think it is time to look into different forms of the carbon matrix. 
> There most be a form of pure carbon that does not have the too warm 
> coloration. We've joked about this in the past, but it may very well 
> prove to be the solution. The Nanotubes is an interesting idea that I 
> still need to research, but I'm not sure if they are able to produce 
> the quantity needed for an ink pigment in mass scale. Buckey Balls 
> still seems like a good idea to me, but until they can be made in 
> enough quantity and tried we may never know.
>

Re: Ink Base update (was Eboni-6 tones, etc.)

2008-01-23 by dgattarino

Hello Paul,

  going through a large amount of literature (mostly patents by Epson
or similar ink related firms), it appears that inks require tipically
two different kinds of surfactant. We also found that Simple Green
composition has exactly two of the right kind, in more or less, the
correct proportion. Infact, the components of SIMPLE GREEN are, by
weight, about 5.8% glycol ether ethylene glycol monobutyl ether, sold
commercially as BUTYL CELLOSOLVE, about 3.75% nonylphenol ethoxylate,
about 1.5% tetrapotassium pyrophosphate, and about 88.95% water.

We have tried Simple green in our base once, but amount was incorrect.
The surface tension was lowered to a point that the imk was
spontaneously dripping from the head in the printer. We are a very
small studio and do not have enough time and resources  to make many
tests. May be you are willing to take over those tests and complete
your very nice work by also trying a couple of formulae including
Simple Green as surfactant?

Thank you very much. Cheers,

 Daniela 



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "pr_roark"
<pr_roark@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> By the way, this is the latest ink base mix I've made. 
> 
> http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Ink-mixing.pdf 
> 
> I recommend staying with what MIS will make available, but this one 
> appears to work and is totally open source.  
> 
> It's a good exercise to explore these alternatives.  The substances and 
> basic knowhow are available, and most old darkroom workers would be 
> comfortable doing this.  On the other hand, how much benefit can come 
> from fine tuning a base to a specific matte paper is uncertain. As with 
> my previous experiences with custom mixing of film developers, when 
> Kodak or other company came out with a good, pre-mixed solution, I used 
> it.  (Anyone want my old ingredients to mix POTA developer?)
> 
> Frankly, matte papers printed with older printers are easy to deal 
> with.  The more serious work here is going into trying to cure glossy 
> substrate artifacts and dealing with increasingly fast printing speeds 
> with smaller nozzles.
> 
> Of course, the most interesting thing I ran into is the inkjet printing 
> of carbon nanotubes for various purposes.  Even totally new types of 
> heads that can work faster and with smaller droplets have been 
> developed.  But nanotubes actually appear to be able to be printed with 
> Epson printers using a base similar to the one outlined above. 
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>

Re: Ink Base update (was Eboni-6 tones, etc.)

2008-01-23 by pr_roark

Hi Daniela,


> ...  
> We have tried Simple green in our base once, 
> but amount was incorrect.
> The surface tension was lowered to a point that the imk was
> spontaneously dripping from the head in the printer.

This even though the viscosity was OK?  That must be a very effective 
surfactant.  

The Dow product I used seems to be used in lots of cleaning products.

>...
> May be you are willing to take over those tests and complete
> your very nice work by also trying a couple of formulae including
> Simple Green as surfactant?

I'll keep it in mind.  Simple Green is definitely easier for most to 
obtain.

Frankly, my incentives to do this work vary with my views as to 
whether MIS is going to make what I want.  Regardless of MIS's 
actions, I do think there should be an open source approach.  On the 
other hand, I don't want to discourage MIS and others in the business 
of making these products from doing so and successfully competing 
with the big guys.  I also think the vast majority of people are 
going to be more comfortable using a product that a reputable company 
produces and stands behind. 

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Re: Ink Base update (was Eboni-6 tones, etc.)

2008-01-23 by dgattarino

> 
> This even though the viscosity was OK?  That must be a very effective 
> surfactant.  
> 
To my understanding, viscosity and surface tension are correlated. You
need to make both right. For example, water has very low viscosity but
very high surface tension. Therefore, it would not drip from the
printer head. However, is unsuitable as base because the viscosity is
wrong.

> The Dow product I used seems to be used in lots of cleaning products.
> 
Yes. The question is if it is available in small (retail) quantities
to us.


> >...
> > May be you are willing to take over those tests and complete
> > your very nice work by also trying a couple of formulae including
> > Simple Green as surfactant?
> 
> I'll keep it in mind.  Simple Green is definitely easier for most to 
> obtain.

Thanks.

> 
> Frankly, my incentives to do this work vary with my views as to 
> whether MIS is going to make what I want.  Regardless of MIS's 
> actions, I do think there should be an open source approach.  On the 
> other hand, I don't want to discourage MIS and others in the business 
> of making these products from doing so and successfully competing 
> with the big guys. 

Fully agree regarding inks. Not for the base, that you can  homebrew
as most people did until not so long ago in their darkrooms with some
developers and/or fixers. MIS and other producers charge way too much
for their bases, taking into account what it contains (as you mention,
mostly glycerine or glycols and water).
In our case, our studio is looking for the most archival, low reacting
  ink and we like to keep under control what's in the base (hoping
that Eboni is mostly carbon and glycerols/glycol). Therefore, we are
experimenting with simple components, with low reactivity, for the base.

Cheers,

  Daniela

Re: Ink Base update (was Eboni-6 tones, etc.)

2008-01-24 by dlruckus

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "pr_roark"
<pr_roark@...> wrote:
>
> Of course, the most interesting thing I ran into is the inkjet printing 
> of carbon nanotubes for various purposes.  Even totally new types of 
> heads that can work faster and with smaller droplets have been 
> developed.  But nanotubes actually appear to be able to be printed with 
> Epson printers using a base similar to the one outlined above. 
> 

 I saw a recent news item that referenced the blackest black yet
achieved by utilizing carbon nanotubes. It might be pretty nifty with
matt papers:)

Regards
Duane

Re: Ink Base update (was Eboni-6 tones, etc.)

2008-01-24 by pr_roark

Hi Daniela,

>... 
> > The Dow product I used seems to be used in lots 
> > of cleaning products.
 
> Yes. The question is if it is available in small (retail) 
> quantities to us.

Yes, I found it on the internet.  I must say, however, the sample Dow 
sent to me will probably last me for many years.

> ...
>  the base, that you can  homebrew as most people did 
> until not so long ago in their darkrooms with some
> developers and/or fixers. MIS and other producers charge 
> way too much for their bases, taking into account what 
> it contains (as you mention, mostly glycerine or glycols 
> and water). 

> In our case, our studio is looking for the most archival, 
> low reacting ink and we like to keep under control what's 
> in the base (hoping
> that Eboni is mostly carbon and glycerols/glycol). 
> Therefore, we are experimenting with simple components, 
> with low reactivity, for the base.

I'll continue to pursue the issue.

By the way, at least for low load inks a 20% glycerin viscosity mix 
appears to keep Eboni in solution and runs in Canon dye printers.

I read that the 1900 has little ball bearings in the reservoir to 
keep the inks mixed.  That may mean they've gone to a lower viscosity 
ink to get it through those tiny nozzles at higher speeds.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Re: Ink Base update (was Eboni-6 tones, etc.)

2008-01-24 by pr_roark

>...it appears that inks require typically 
> two different kinds of surfactant. ...

Surfactants differ in the extent to which they form miscelles or 
monolayers -- that turn into bi-layers on some surfaces like inkjet 
nozzles.  Some are hybrids.  Which characteristic one goes for 
affects how the ink responds in different situations.  It's one of 
the variables that we may be able to "tune" for different papers and 
inkjets.  So, if one has 2 surfactants with differetn HLB values (a 
measure of this characteristic), their ratios may be able to swing 
from one end of the scale to the other.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micelles for a visual of these 
structures.

I -- for sure -- have not sorted out all the variables and effects of 
these characteristics, but this is definitely one of the variables 
that could affect, for example, your desire to hold bleed on un-
coated papers to a minimum.  What is optimal for the nozzle may not 
be optimal for the paper fibers and wicking of the ink out on that 
fiber.  The ability to tailor inks for different combinations of head 
technology and paper is one thing that may be accessible to us.



Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Re: Ink Base update (was Eboni-6 tones, etc.)

2008-01-25 by dgattarino

I have found the formula of Simple Green here:

http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/5856289-description.html

Do not worry about the colorant and fragrance. We have used in an R220
for about 8 months an ink diluted with a base made with automotive
antifreeze (97.5 % ethylene glycol and the rest is unknown) with a
blue colorant. Worked perfectly and could not see any effect of the
colorant on the paper. The printer is still OK.

Daniela





pr_roark <pr_roark@...> wrote:

    "Ingredients - What are the ingredients in Simple GreenĀ®?
    Simple Green All Purpose Cleaner is made of water, surfactants
(surface-
    active-agents), wetting agents, emulsifiers, green colorant and
    fragrance. Simple Green does not contain chlorine (bleach), ammonia,
    formaldehyde, TSP or petroleum distillates."

    http://www.simplegreen.com/solutions_faqs.php?
   
faq_id=50&search_query=ingredients&search_query_backup=ingredients&btnSh
    owAll=Show%20All

    I worry a bit about the green colorant and materials that make the
    fragrance.

    Paul

Re: Ink Base update (was Eboni-6 tones, etc.)

2008-01-25 by Greg

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "dgattarino" 
<dgattarino@...> wrote:
>
> I have found the formula of Simple Green here:
> 
> http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/5856289-description.html
> 
> Do not worry about the colorant and fragrance. We have used in an R220
> for about 8 months an ink diluted with a base made with automotive
> antifreeze (97.5 % ethylene glycol and the rest is unknown) with a
> blue colorant. Worked perfectly and could not see any effect of the
> colorant on the paper. The printer is still OK.
> 
> Daniela
> 


Shine a black light on those prints and you should see the green color 
flourese. This may also show up as a green color cast in the Sun.

Re: Ink Base update (was Eboni-6 tones, etc.)

2008-01-25 by dgattarino

Hello Paul,

> What is optimal for the nozzle may not 
> be optimal for the paper fibers and wicking of the ink out on that 
> fiber.  The ability to tailor inks for different combinations of head 
> technology and paper is one thing that may be accessible to us.
> 

we absolutely agree with your statement which, infact, corresponds to
our findings. Uncoated papers requires a different ink than inkjet papers.
We also found that fine art paper requires an ink base depending of
the use they are made for. For example, some of our bases tested ok on
watercolor paper but not ok for printmaking or etching papers and
viceversa.

Cheers.

Daniela

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Ink Base update (was Eboni-6 tones, etc.)

2008-01-25 by John Labovitz

On Jan 25, 2008, at 9:51 AM, dgattarino wrote:

> we absolutely agree with your statement which, infact, corresponds to
> our findings. Uncoated papers requires a different ink than inkjet  
> papers.
> We also found that fine art paper requires an ink base depending of
> the use they are made for. For example, some of our bases tested ok on
> watercolor paper but not ok for printmaking or etching papers and
> viceversa.

It sounds like you're doing some fascinating work with inks and  
printing.  Do you mind describing what sorts of projects you're  
working on?  Are you printing for clients?  Producing your own work?   
I'd like to hear more about your decisions and choices for various  
mediums, especially from the point of view of making one's own inks.

--John

[Digital BW] Re: Ink Base update (was Eboni-6 tones, etc.)

2008-01-25 by dgattarino

Have a look at the following thread.

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/QuadtoneRIP/message/6020

Daniela




--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, John Labovitz
<johnl@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> On Jan 25, 2008, at 9:51 AM, dgattarino wrote:
> 
> > we absolutely agree with your statement which, infact, corresponds to
> > our findings. Uncoated papers requires a different ink than inkjet  
> > papers.
> > We also found that fine art paper requires an ink base depending of
> > the use they are made for. For example, some of our bases tested ok on
> > watercolor paper but not ok for printmaking or etching papers and
> > viceversa.
> 
> It sounds like you're doing some fascinating work with inks and  
> printing.  Do you mind describing what sorts of projects you're  
> working on?  Are you printing for clients?  Producing your own work?   
> I'd like to hear more about your decisions and choices for various  
> mediums, especially from the point of view of making one's own inks.
> 
> --John
>

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Ink Base update (was Eboni-6 tones, etc.)

2008-01-28 by Ernst Dinkla

> I read that the 1900 has little ball bearings in the reservoir to 
> keep the inks mixed.  That may mean they've gone to a lower viscosity 
> ink to get it through those tiny nozzles at higher speeds.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com 


Paul,

I once considered to use the usual lab magnetic stirrer 
method to keep pigment inks suspended in my CIS bottles but 
I guess this is something else than having some SS balls 
running circles at the bottom of a bottle ?

-- 
Met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst


|  Dinkla Grafische Techniek  |
|     www.pigment-print.com    |
|             ( unvollendet )            |

[Digital BW] Re: Ink Base update (was Eboni-6 tones, etc.)

2008-01-28 by Greg

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Ernst Dinkla 
<E.Dinkla@...> wrote:
> Paul,
> 
> I once considered to use the usual lab magnetic stirrer 
> method to keep pigment inks suspended in my CIS bottles but 
> I guess this is something else than having some SS balls 
> running circles at the bottom of a bottle ?
> 


I've considered the same, that and ultrasonic devices. Never have tried 
anything though.

Magnetic Stirrer: Dont (was) Ink Base update (was Eboni-6 tones, etc.)

2008-01-28 by Shilesh Jani

I would not use teflon coated magnetic stirrers in Nalgene bottles. 
The constant abrasion will produce polyethylene particles in the 5 
to 20 micron size range. Glass bottles would be better. Better yet, 
just use a small lab shaker.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Greg" 
<dfaprinting@...> wrote:
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Ernst Dinkla 
> <E.Dinkla@> wrote:
> > Paul,
> > 
> > I once considered to use the usual lab magnetic stirrer 
> > method to keep pigment inks suspended in my CIS bottles but 
> > I guess this is something else than having some SS balls 
> > running circles at the bottom of a bottle ?
> > 
> 
> 
> I've considered the same, that and ultrasonic devices. Never have 
tried 
> anything though.
>

Re: Magnetic Stirrer: Dont (was) Ink Base update (was Eboni-6 tones, etc.)

2008-01-29 by Greg

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Shilesh Jani"
<shileshjani@...> wrote:
>
> I would not use teflon coated magnetic stirrers in Nalgene bottles. 
> The constant abrasion will produce polyethylene particles in the 5 
> to 20 micron size range. Glass bottles would be better. Better yet, 
> just use a small lab shaker.
> 

I was thinking more like a small DC motor with an off center flywheel.
One on each ink box would probably be fine for my 9500. When I get it
going again I may do this.

Move to quarantaine

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