-----Original Message-----
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Dave
Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2009 7:13 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: photos by Jean-Michel Berts
It's easy to see how anyone can be confused. We're using terminology
that's appropriate for film and paper, but entirely inadequate for
digital processing.
When we burned in the darkroom, we were increasing exposure to the
paper. When we dodged, we were lessening, or holding back exposure to
the paper. In a program like Lightroom, the terminology just doesn't
work because in effect, we're working on a direct positive. Applying a
local adjustment that's meant to darken an area requires the user to
select a lower exposure value for that tool, whereas lightening an
area is done by increasing the exposure value.
For those of us that spent a good part of our lives locked in a little
room, working on our images far from the light of day, the transition
comes a little easier - exposure control became an innate skill. We
thought about lightening and darkening by using our timers, our hands,
and whatever scraps of cardboard or paper were laying around the
darkroom at the time. There were no menus - no digital burning and
dodging tools to pick from a palette. We just did what we did - words
really didn't enter into it.
For my part, I think we need to drop the old terminology. Burning and
dodging don't exist outside of the darkroom - we need to talk about
local darkening and lightening.
Just my $0.02.
All best,
Dave
http://davereichertphoto.com/
On Nov 21, 2009, at 4:55 PM, E.Neilsen wrote:
> Jacob, It sounds to me that you are really confused. Burn is to
> darken,
> dodge is to lighten. Whether you are in PS or the darkroom, a burn
> makes
> what your working on darker, and a dodge makes it lighter. I don't
> think the
> noise reduction in LR is still adequate and many of the plug in are
> still
> superior to Adobe in either LR or PS. Bracketing in digital is NOT
> the same
> as zone system in film as the sensor doesn't really change. The film
> is a
> real hard object with real changes built into it. Digital sensors
> change the
> interpretation of the data, but the sensor does not really change.
> Sure
> there are differences in it, but they are not like film.
>
> Eric
>
> Eric Neilsen
>
> Eric Neilsen Photography
>
> 4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9
>
> Dallas, TX 75226
>
> <http://www.ericneilsenphotography.com> www.ericneilsenphotography.com
>
> skype me with ejprinter
>
> _____
>
> From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
> Jacob
> Sent: Friday, November 20, 2009 1:13 PM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: photos by Jean-Michel Berts
>
> Eric,
>
> you are right. I'm still not used to the difference between negative
> processing and positive one.
>
> We used to burn shadows when we had dark spots on the negative and we
> covered all picture leaving open the dark spots to allow more light
> there.
> In Photoshop we dodge shadows because it's positive process like
> slide. I
> actually never used this tool.
>
> Sure any exposure manipulation increases noise which brings us back to
> bracketing. But if you do it in Lightroom (especially in new beta
> version
> which is so good in noise reduction and sharpening) the penalty is
> not so
> bad.
>
> I've printed size 30"x40" from a picture taken with ISO 800 and with
> exposure correction 1 stop and the quality (noise and sharpness) is
> pretty
> good.
>
> Jacob Mann
> http://www.photo3da <http://www.photo3dart.com> rt.com
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhit
> <mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint%40yahoogroups.com>
> eThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "E.Neilsen" <e.neilsen2@...> wrote:
> >
> > Jacob, You said, "And if you burn dark shadows they will have a
> lot of
> noise
> > and not enough details." You do mean dodge here right?
> >
> > I would also caution user that use the luminance tool in Lightroom
> to
> darken
> > a color, specifically skies, that an increase in noise can be a
> problem. I
> > find that I have just one filter with me when I shoot digital; a
> polarizer.
> > The fill light to open shadows is the biggest culprit to un wanted
> noise.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Eric
> >
> >
> >
> > Eric Neilsen
> >
> > Eric Neilsen Photography
> >
> > 4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9
> >
> > Dallas, TX 75226
> >
> >
> >
> > www.ericneilsenphotography.com
> >
> > skype me with ejprinter
> >
> >
> >
> > _____
> >
> > From: DigitalBlackandWhit
> <mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint%40yahoogroups.com>
> eThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> > [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhit
> <mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint%40yahoogroups.com>
> eThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jacob
> > Sent: Friday, November 20, 2009 7:48 AM
> > To: DigitalBlackandWhit
> <mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint%40yahoogroups.com>
> eThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [Digital BW] Re: photos by Jean-Michel Berts
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Thank you Tony.
> > I do only digital. My current camera is Nikon D700 with Nikon
> 17-35mm
> lens.
> > I use bracketing shooting 3 times with 1 stop difference in
> exposure using
> > evaluative metering. I shoot in uncompressed raw.
> >
> > I don't do any dodging and burning. If I get blown highlights or
> dark
> > shadows I will try to save the image first in Lightroom using
> 'recovery'
> > slider to save highlights and 'fill light' and 'blacks' to open
> shadows. I
> > may also use brush for local changes.
> >
> > If it's still not enough I will take my bracketing shots to
> Photoshop and
> > join them as layers in one image using layer masks. This way I can
> use
> > highlights from underexposed image and shadows from overexposed
> image.
> > It gives much better quality than dodging and burning because if
> highlights
> > are blown there is just no information captured and dodging will
> give you
> > just gray area. And if you burn dark shadows they will have a lot
> of noise
> > and not enough details.
> >
> > Tony, at this point there is no question you can get beautiful
> images with
> > digital camera, just make sure you have a good camera and lens and
> doing
> all
> > technical stuff right: exposure, focusing, ISO.
> >
> > One more advise: shoot in color - not in black and white. Then in
> Lightroom
> > after converting to b&w you can use color sliders to adjust tones of
> > different colors. This is very powerful tool, you can make local
> changes
> > without selections. And this tool has incredible range because it
> works on
> > raw data. It makes it also unnecessary to use filters while
> shooting - you
> > can always darken the sky with blue slider (if it has enough blue
> in it)
> or
> > lighten the leaves with 'green' slider.
> >
> > So Tony, there are no secrets to good digital pictures, just hard
> work, we
> > have to learn to use strong points of digital and to find our way
> around
> > weak points, develop a workflow specific to our needs.
> >
> > I hope this helps. If you have more questions please contact me
> either on
> > the group or directly.
> >
> > Jacob Mann
> > http://www.photo3da <http://www.photo3da <http://www.photo3dart.com>
> rt.com> rt.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > .
> >
> >
> > <http://geo.yahoo.
>
<http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=3702311/grpspId=1705019182/msgId
> > com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=3702311/grpspId=1705019182/msgId
> > =98236/stime=1258724911/nc1=3848621/nc2=4507179/nc3=5689698>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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