Doepfer

hi group,

maybe i'm being a bit dense here, but given that the interesting bit
of a clock signal is the "on" bit (pun intended), what are people
doing to divide their clock signals? 

the a160 clock divider alone won't do it - since each output starts in
the "off" state. so i need to attach it to a bank of != modules (i.e.
a module that reverses the state of the gate). i generally use an a150
vcs, which is fine if i only need two subdivisions of the clock.

if i don't need gates but triggers, the a161 may do it. although to
use several subdivisions at the same time i'll need multiples and gate
combiners.

resetting the a190 cv to midi isn't really a practical option. and
amyway, there are other clock sources to be divided.

all of these solutions need a lot of modules to do something that is
very simple and fundamental to clocking a modular.

analogue solutions' master clock module seems to have disappeared from
the catalogue.

so am i missing something here? is there a doepfer solution that's so
obvious that i can't see it? be it gates or triggers, i'd really
appreciate your thoughts and patches on this.

(and now with trembling hands i press the "send" button)

stu

Ummm, what's the net effect that you're looking for?

When I look at splitting up a clock and dividing it, I'm looking to create 
something like a timed sequence of sweeps, or even using a divider as a 
subharmonic generator.

So, feed a square at, say, 120hz then pick a tap at 1/2 for once/second and 
feed that into an EG. Then pick a tap at 1/4 for once/2 seconds and feed 
that into another EG or an LFO reset, etc. The next effect in the patch is 
a number of sequenced "things" happening...

Are you looking to do something different?

------------
Stu Grimshaw (12:46 PM 2/27/2008) wrote:

 >hi group,
 >
 >maybe i'm being a bit dense here, but given that the interesting bit
 >of a clock signal is the "on" bit (pun intended), what are people
 >doing to divide their clock signals?
 >
 >the a160 clock divider alone won't do it - since each output starts in
 >the "off" state....

hallo mark,

there are different things that i'm after, but an easy one to follow
is having several envelopes, one of which should fire off at every
quarter, one of which at every bar etc. after a reset/start they
should all fire off on the 1, and then keep going at their respective
intervals. quite the opposite happens with the a190, since the all the
gates start off with "off".

to express it in binary terms, directly after a start i have 00000000
when what i need is 11111111.

this is the reverse of the a190's behaviour. dieter, can this be
hacked? very unlikely, i know, but if you don't ask you don't get :)

cheers,

stu

--- In Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com, Mark Pulver <mark@...> wrote:
>
> 
> Ummm, what's the net effect that you're looking for?
> 
> When I look at splitting up a clock and dividing it, I'm looking to
create 
> something like a timed sequence of sweeps, or even using a divider as a 
> subharmonic generator.
> 
> So, feed a square at, say, 120hz then pick a tap at 1/2 for
once/second and 
> feed that into an EG. Then pick a tap at 1/4 for once/2 seconds and
feed 
> that into another EG or an LFO reset, etc. The next effect in the
patch is 

> a number of sequenced "things" happening...
> 
> Are you looking to do something different?
>

why don't you delay the clock signal coming from the
a190? (with a A162 gate delay module)
that way you can make it to run exactly in time with
the midi clock (you just miss the first beat).
hoping this will help...?
best regards,
Bakis.


--- Stu Grimshaw <grimshaw@stugrimshaw.com> wrote:

> hallo mark,
> 
> there are different things that i'm after, but an
> easy one to follow
> is having several envelopes, one of which should
> fire off at every
> quarter, one of which at every bar etc. after a
> reset/start they
> should all fire off on the 1, and then keep going at
> their respective
> intervals. quite the opposite happens with the a190,
> since the all the
> gates start off with "off".
> 
> to express it in binary terms, directly after a
> start i have 00000000
> when what i need is 11111111.
> 
> this is the reverse of the a190's behaviour. dieter,
> can this be
> hacked? very unlikely, i know, but if you don't ask
> you don't get :)
> 
> cheers,
> 
> stu
> 
> --- In Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com, Mark Pulver
> <mark@...> wrote:
> >
> > 
> > Ummm, what's the net effect that you're looking
> for?
> > 
> > When I look at splitting up a clock and dividing
> it, I'm looking to
> create 
> > something like a timed sequence of sweeps, or even
> using a divider as a 
> > subharmonic generator.
> > 
> > So, feed a square at, say, 120hz then pick a tap
> at 1/2 for
> once/second and 
> > feed that into an EG. Then pick a tap at 1/4 for
> once/2 seconds and
> feed 
> > that into another EG or an LFO reset, etc. The
> next effect in the
> patch is 
> > a number of sequenced "things" happening...
> > 
> > Are you looking to do something different?
> > 
> 
> 
> 


Bakis Sirros - Parallel Worlds / Interconnected / Memory Geist
[Doepfer_a100] group owner
http://www.parallel-worlds-music.com
http://www.myspace.com/parallelworldsmusic
http://www.myspace.com/interconnectedmusic
http://www.myspace.com/memorygeist
http://www.DiN.org.uk
http://www.musicamaximamagnetica.com
http://www.shimarecords.co.uk
http://www.rubber.gr
Athens-Greece


      ____________________________________________________________________________________
Never miss a thing.  Make Yahoo your home page. 
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs

Hi Stuart,

I think, I know what you want to say.

The reality of a divider after reset is:
Stepnumber  1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
      clock .1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.
         /2 ...11..11..11..11
         /4 .......1111....11

But you want

Stepnumber  1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
      clock .1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.
         /2 .11..11..11..11..
         /4 .1111....1111....

And the best thing for percussion triggering would be

Stepnumber  1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
      clock .1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.
         /2 .1...1...1...1...
         /3 .1.....1.....1...
         /4 .1.......1.......

This would require a lot of hardware if it would be realised with 
standard logic chips, but should be a easy job with a PIC.

A long time ago I already asked in a poll for a multi purpose 
masterclock module.

Should have

Internal Clock,

MIDI-Clock-In/Out,

DIN-Sync-In/Out,

16th, 96th, 192th Clock In/Out,

Triggers out like in the last example above, with highest rate as 32th 
(if the master clock is fast enough) and longest should be 2 bars (in 4/4).
The trigger outs must be available all at the same time (not a single 
out with a rate selector).

Additionally the modul should provide a swing factor (but not as rough 
as in the jomox Xbases); this should be possible for all clock modes 
with the exception "slave of 16th-Clock in".




Florian


Stu Grimshaw wrote:

> hallo mark,
> 
> there are different things that i'm after, but an easy one to follow
> is having several envelopes, one of which should fire off at every
> quarter, one of which at every bar etc. after a reset/start they
> should all fire off on the 1, and then keep going at their respective
> intervals. quite the opposite happens with the a190, since the all the
> gates start off with "off".
> 
> to express it in binary terms, directly after a start i have 00000000
> when what i need is 11111111.
> 
> this is the reverse of the a190's behaviour. dieter, can this be
> hacked? very unlikely, i know, but if you don't ask you don't get :)
> 
> cheers,
> 
> stu
> 
> --- In Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com, Mark Pulver <mark@...> wrote:
> 
>>
>>Ummm, what's the net effect that you're looking for?
>>
>>When I look at splitting up a clock and dividing it, I'm looking to
> 
> create 
> 
>>something like a timed sequence of sweeps, or even using a divider as a 
>>subharmonic generator.
>>
>>So, feed a square at, say, 120hz then pick a tap at 1/2 for
> 
> once/second and 
> 
>>feed that into an EG. Then pick a tap at 1/4 for once/2 seconds and
> 
> feed 
> 
>>that into another EG or an LFO reset, etc. The next effect in the
> 
> patch is 
> 
>>a number of sequenced "things" happening...
>>
>>Are you looking to do something different?
>>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
> 

-- 
Florian Anwander                  |ConSol
Tel.   +49(89)45841-133           |Consulting&Solutions Software GmbH
Fax    +49(89)45841-111           |Franziskanerstr. 38, D-81669 München
email: florian.anwander@consol.de |http://www.consol.de

> But you want
> 
> Stepnumber  1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
>       clock .1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.
>          /2 .11..11..11..11..
>          /4 .1111....1111....

couldn't follow that (are the dots zeros?) but this...

> And the best thing for percussion triggering would be
> 
> Stepnumber  1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
>       clock .1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.
>          /2 .1...1...1...1...
>          /3 .1.....1.....1...
>          /4 .1.......1.......
 
...is what i mean. all gates (or trigers) are on when the start order
comes. if the clock is sending 16ths, then the /2 output is sending
8ths etc. 
why would this need a lot of hardware? the /2 output passes the first
click it gets, ignores the second, passes the third. the /4 output
passes the first and fifth etc. if a device is designed to go high on
the first trigger and low on the second, then all you need is a chain
of these devices, with a tap after each one for the relevant output.

bakis, a delay wouldn't help - are you maybe referring to that other
thread (a190 and sync) ?

florian's suggested clock module is more than i need, but i would most
certainly buy it. 

i assume, then, that there is no simple solution?

yours,

Puzzled of Dortmund 
:)

Hi Stuart

>>Stepnumber  1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
>>      clock .1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.
>>         /2 .11..11..11..11..
>>         /4 .1111....1111....
> couldn't follow that (are the dots zeros?) but this...
Yes. I used dots instead of zeros because its more readable.


>>And the best thing for percussion triggering would be
>>
>>Stepnumber  1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
>>      clock .1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.
>>         /2 .1...1...1...1...
>>         /3 .1.....1.....1...
>>         /4 .1.......1.......
> 
>  
> ...is what i mean. all gates (or trigers) are on when the start order
> comes. if the clock is sending 16ths, then the /2 output is sending
> 8ths etc. 
> why would this need a lot of hardware? 
you need for each stage an additional inverter and an AND.

> if a device is designed to go high on
> the first trigger and low on the second, then all you need is a chain
> of these devices, with a tap after each one for the relevant output.
Thats a nice thought, but thats not how these divider chips are built. 
That what you mean would require a dedicated RS-Flipflop with all 
outputs available for each stage. The divider ICs as used in the A-160 
have a chain of RS-Flipflops, but they are connected in the wrong way 
with each other (if its of interest I can post details). So you'd need 
eight Divider ICs plus two 4xAND-Chips for this, where the standard 
A-160 goes with one chip - and with that you still do not have the 
divide by three part.

Florian

> hallo mark,
>
> there are different things that i'm after, but an easy one to follow
> is having several envelopes, one of which should fire off at every
> quarter, one of which at every bar etc. after a reset/start they
> should all fire off on the 1, and then keep going at their respective
> intervals. quite the opposite happens with the a190, since the all the
> gates start off with "off".
>
> to express it in binary terms, directly after a start i have 00000000
> when what i need is 11111111.
>
> this is the reverse of the a190's behaviour. dieter, can this be
> hacked? very unlikely, i know, but if you don't ask you don't get :)
>
> cheers,
>
> stu

That's not a problem of the A-190 as it outputs only clock and start/stop
but has no trigger/gate outputs but the device controlled by the A-190 !

I know the problems you are talking about as I had many years ago a master
clock unit with a lot of trigger and gate outputs., positive and negative
edge triggered clock and reset inputs and many more. A bit similar to the
A-160 and and A-161 but even with inverted and trigger outputs, and inverted
clock/reset inputs. To emulate these functions several additional trigger
inverters are required (A-165).

If I understand your problem it could be solved by the A-161 and the A-186-1
as the A-161 has a separate gate output for each step available. To solve
the 000/111 problem simply use output #2 of the A-161 as the first gate. The
outputs of the A-161 can be combined by the A-186-1.

We could develop a master clock module (e.g. a copy of my old device) but
I'm not sure if there are sufficient inquiries.

Best wishes
Dieter Doepfer

A really versatile master clock nodule would be on my wish list.
 
David Salter
Senior Consultant
PSG 

Reuters Messaging: david.salter.reuters.com@reuters.net
(t) +44 (0)20 7542 2402 | (m) 07990562402 | (f) 52699 

Get the latest news at Reuters.com <http://www.reuters.com/> 

 

________________________________

From: Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of hardware@doepfer.de
Sent: 28 February 2008 14:07
To: Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com
Subject: AW: [Doepfer_a100] Re: clock division: am i missing something?



> hallo mark,
>
> there are different things that i'm after, but an easy one to follow
> is having several envelopes, one of which should fire off at every
> quarter, one of which at every bar etc. after a reset/start they
> should all fire off on the 1, and then keep going at their respective
> intervals. quite the opposite happens with the a190, since the all the
> gates start off with "off".
>
> to express it in binary terms, directly after a start i have 00000000
> when what i need is 11111111.
>
> this is the reverse of the a190's behaviour. dieter, can this be
> hacked? very unlikely, i know, but if you don't ask you don't get :)
>
> cheers,
>
> stu

That's not a problem of the A-190 as it outputs only clock and
start/stop
but has no trigger/gate outputs but the device controlled by the A-190 !

I know the problems you are talking about as I had many years ago a
master
clock unit with a lot of trigger and gate outputs., positive and
negative
edge triggered clock and reset inputs and many more. A bit similar to
the
A-160 and and A-161 but even with inverted and trigger outputs, and
inverted
clock/reset inputs. To emulate these functions several additional
trigger
inverters are required (A-165).

If I understand your problem it could be solved by the A-161 and the
A-186-1
as the A-161 has a separate gate output for each step available. To
solve
the 000/111 problem simply use output #2 of the A-161 as the first gate.
The
outputs of the A-161 can be combined by the A-186-1.

We could develop a master clock module (e.g. a copy of my old device)
but
I'm not sure if there are sufficient inquiries.

Best wishes
Dieter Doepfer



 


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Dieter

> If I understand your problem it could be solved by the A-161 and the A-186-1
> as the A-161 has a separate gate output for each step available. To solve
> the 000/111 problem simply use output #2 of the A-161 as the first gate. The
> outputs of the A-161 can be combined by the A-186-1.
No, This only works for one stage:

Step 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
  1/1 .1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.
  1/2 ...11..11..11..11..11..

Now you invert 1/2 and AND it with 1/1

Step 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
  1/1 .1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.
  1/2 .11..11..11..11..11..11
      .1...1...1...1...1...1. = 1AND2
Looks perfect. But only as long as you do not proceed with 1/4:

Original
Step 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
  1/1 .1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.
  1/2 ...11..11..11..11..11..
  1/4 .......1111....1111....

Now replace 1/2 by 1AND2 and invert 1/4 and do 2AND4

Step 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
  1/1 .1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.
      .1...1...1...1...1...1. = 1AND2
  1/4 .111111....1111....1111
      .1...1.......1.......1. = 2AND4

As you can see, the 1/4 starts with two 1/2-Steps and then goes to 1/4. 
This is because the RS-Flopflop in the counter is clocked by Q instead of /Q

The dividers are like
clock---S  Q---S  Q---...
         R /Q   R /Q

But we would need something like:
clock---S  Q +-S  Q +-...
         R /Q-+ R /Q-+

Florian

Florian,

I'll try to understand everything when I have the time. Probably a PIC could
do the job.

Currently I'm about to prepare our booth for the Frankfurt Musikmesse and
this takes a lot of time. Actually we did not want to go to Frankfurt this
year but we have the chance to exhibit within the "Analog Synthesizer
Sub-exhibition" at very low charges. So I could not refuse ...

Dieter

> -----Ursprungliche Nachricht-----
> Von: Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com]Im Auftrag von Florian Anwander
> Gesendet: Donnerstag, 28. Februar 2008 15:25
> An: Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com
> Betreff: Re: AW: [Doepfer_a100] Re: clock division: am i missing
> something?
>
>
> Hi Dieter
>
> > If I understand your problem it could be solved by the A-161
> and the A-186-1
> > as the A-161 has a separate gate output for each step
> available. To solve
> > the 000/111 problem simply use output #2 of the A-161 as the
> first gate. The
> > outputs of the A-161 can be combined by the A-186-1.
> No, This only works for one stage:
>
> Step 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
> 1/1 .1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.
> 1/2 ...11..11..11..11..11..
>
> Now you invert 1/2 and AND it with 1/1
>
> Step 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
> 1/1 .1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.
> 1/2 .11..11..11..11..11..11
> .1...1...1...1...1...1. = 1AND2
> Looks perfect. But only as long as you do not proceed with 1/4:
>
> Original
> Step 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
> 1/1 .1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.
> 1/2 ...11..11..11..11..11..
> 1/4 .......1111....1111....
>
> Now replace 1/2 by 1AND2 and invert 1/4 and do 2AND4
>
> Step 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
> 1/1 .1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.
> .1...1...1...1...1...1. = 1AND2
> 1/4 .111111....1111....1111
> .1...1.......1.......1. = 2AND4
>
> As you can see, the 1/4 starts with two 1/2-Steps and then goes to 1/4.
> This is because the RS-Flopflop in the counter is clocked by Q
> instead of /Q
>
> The dividers are like
> clock---S Q---S Q---...
> R /Q R /Q
>
> But we would need something like:
> clock---S Q +-S Q +-...
> R /Q-+ R /Q-+
>
> Florian
>
>

I'd love to have a master clock, but only if it can do odd divisions.

Say, from 1/64th notes to 4- or more whole notes, with the obvious  
1/4, 1/8, etc divisions as well as triplets and 1/3rd, 1/5th, etc  
divisions.

All divisions both with gate (preferably with duty cycle control) and  
trigger outputs.

Inverted outputs too.

Clock select: internal or external.

Both manual (pushbuttons) and gate inputs for Reset, Step (ext.Clk),  
Start, Stop and Run.

Internal clock needs to run well into the audio range (something like  
300bpm, or 240Hz).

Master clock needs to be Voltage Controlled (linear) !

Run mode (switch): Gate = clock runs when gate is high; Trig = clock  
starts/stops on alternate pulses.

Throw in some Logic Gates, and we're nearly there...



I used to run & sync my whole (analog, non-midi) studio on a similar  
home-built masterclock like this, erm, 25 years ago. Even put the main  
clock output on audio-tape sometimes, so I could re-sync the clock  
later, off tape. Morton Subotnick did similar things with his ghost  
tapes...



cheers,

Guy

> > hallo mark,
> >
> > there are different things that i'm after, but an easy one to follow
> > is having several envelopes, one of which should fire off at every
> > quarter, one of which at every bar etc. after a reset/start they
> > should all fire off on the 1, and then keep going at their  
> respective
> > intervals. quite the opposite happens with the a190, since the all  
> the
> > gates start off with "off".
> >
> > to express it in binary terms, directly after a start i have  
> 00000000
> > when what i need is 11111111.
> >
> > this is the reverse of the a190's behaviour. dieter, can this be
> > hacked? very unlikely, i know, but if you don't ask you don't get :)
> >
> > cheers,
> >
> > stu
>
> That's not a problem of the A-190 as it outputs only clock and start/ 
> stop
> but has no trigger/gate outputs but the device controlled by the  
> A-190 !
>
> I know the problems you are talking about as I had many years ago a  
> master
> clock unit with a lot of trigger and gate outputs., positive and  
> negative
> edge triggered clock and reset inputs and many more. A bit similar  
> to the
> A-160 and and A-161 but even with inverted and trigger outputs, and  
> inverted
> clock/reset inputs. To emulate these functions several additional  
> trigger
> inverters are required (A-165).
>
> If I understand your problem it could be solved by the A-161 and the  
> A-186-1
> as the A-161 has a separate gate output for each step available. To  
> solve
> the 000/111 problem simply use output #2 of the A-161 as the first  
> gate. The
> outputs of the A-161 can be combined by the A-186-1.
>
> We could develop a master clock module (e.g. a copy of my old  
> device) but
> I'm not sure if there are sufficient inquiries.
>
> Best wishes
> Dieter Doepfer

Hey Dieter that is wonderful news. I'll pop over and say hello on the
Friday.
 
Rgds
 
David
 
David Salter
Senior Consultant
PSG 

Reuters Messaging: david.salter.reuters.com@reuters.net
(t) +44 (0)20 7542 2402 | (m) 07990562402 | (f) 52699 

Get the latest news at Reuters.com <http://www.reuters.com/> 

 

________________________________

From: Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of hardware@doepfer.de
Sent: 28 February 2008 14:34
To: Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com
Subject: AW: AW: [Doepfer_a100] Re: clock division: am i missing
something?



Florian,

I'll try to understand everything when I have the time. Probably a PIC
could
do the job.

Currently I'm about to prepare our booth for the Frankfurt Musikmesse
and
this takes a lot of time. Actually we did not want to go to Frankfurt
this
year but we have the chance to exhibit within the "Analog Synthesizer
Sub-exhibition" at very low charges. So I could not refuse ...

Dieter

> -----Ursprungliche Nachricht-----
> Von: Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:Doepfer_a100%40yahoogroups.com> 
> [mailto:Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:Doepfer_a100%40yahoogroups.com> ]Im Auftrag von Florian Anwander
> Gesendet: Donnerstag, 28. Februar 2008 15:25
> An: Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:Doepfer_a100%40yahoogroups.com> 
> Betreff: Re: AW: [Doepfer_a100] Re: clock division: am i missing
> something?
>
>
> Hi Dieter
>
> > If I understand your problem it could be solved by the A-161
> and the A-186-1
> > as the A-161 has a separate gate output for each step
> available. To solve
> > the 000/111 problem simply use output #2 of the A-161 as the
> first gate. The
> > outputs of the A-161 can be combined by the A-186-1.
> No, This only works for one stage:
>
> Step 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
> 1/1 .1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.
> 1/2 ...11..11..11..11..11..
>
> Now you invert 1/2 and AND it with 1/1
>
> Step 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
> 1/1 .1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.
> 1/2 .11..11..11..11..11..11
> .1...1...1...1...1...1. = 1AND2
> Looks perfect. But only as long as you do not proceed with 1/4:
>
> Original
> Step 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
> 1/1 .1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.
> 1/2 ...11..11..11..11..11..
> 1/4 .......1111....1111....
>
> Now replace 1/2 by 1AND2 and invert 1/4 and do 2AND4
>
> Step 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
> 1/1 .1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.
> .1...1...1...1...1...1. = 1AND2
> 1/4 .111111....1111....1111
> .1...1.......1.......1. = 2AND4
>
> As you can see, the 1/4 starts with two 1/2-Steps and then goes to
1/4.
> This is because the RS-Flopflop in the counter is clocked by Q
> instead of /Q
>
> The dividers are like
> clock---S Q---S Q---...
> R /Q R /Q
>
> But we would need something like:
> clock---S Q +-S Q +-...
> R /Q-+ R /Q-+
>
> Florian
>
> 



 


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> Hey Dieter that is wonderful news. I'll pop over and say hello on the
> Friday.
> 
> Rgds
> 
> David

I'll be probably only on Wednesday and Saturday at the booth.

Dieter

Okay, NOW I see what you wanted Stu... Nice problem. :)

What you need (and the other folks) is to re-work Brice Hornback's business 
model and get the PSIM-1 back into production:

http://www.synthmodules.com/psim-1.htm

It was an AWESOME module, but Brice had (and still has) some serious 
business issues and only delivered 50 or so in 3+ years.

I'm lucky enough to have one, and it could easily handle what you're 
looking for.

Deiter - maybe you should contact Brice about acquiring the rights to the 
module and re-manufacturer it? :)

Mark

Well at least I'll get to see some of the new modules ;o)
 
David Salter
Senior Consultant
PSG 

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________________________________

From: Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of hardware@doepfer.de
Sent: 28 February 2008 15:49
To: Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com
Subject: AW: AW: [Doepfer_a100] Re: clock division: am i missing
something?



> Hey Dieter that is wonderful news. I'll pop over and say hello on the
> Friday.
> 
> Rgds
> 
> David

I'll be probably only on Wednesday and Saturday at the booth.

Dieter


 


This email was sent to you by Reuters, the global news and information company. 
To find out more about Reuters visit www.about.reuters.com

Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender, 
except where the sender specifically states them to be the views of Reuters Limited.

Reuters Limited is part of the Reuters Group of companies, of which Reuters Group PLC is the ultimate parent company.
Reuters Group PLC - Registered office address: The Reuters Building, South Colonnade, Canary Wharf, London E14 5EP, United Kingdom
Registered No: 3296375
Registered in England and Wales



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Mark

The psim was a nice module ideam, but as far as I see it would not work 
with external clock signals

Florian

Hey Florian;

I'm pretty sure there's code around to do what Stu's looking for. If not, 
it's pretty straight-forward to write.

Master clock comes in on IN-1, then the code sets gates on OUT-1 through -4 
as the stages. You could accept input on IN-2 through -4 to adjust the 
relative stage timing as well.

Mark
----
Florian Anwander (08:12 AM 2/28/2008) wrote:

 >Hi Mark
 >
 >The psim was a nice module idea, but as far as I see it would not work
 >with external clock signals
 >
 >Florian

Hi Mark

ouch sorry, my eyes get old: I only had a short look at the image and I 
read "cv" instead off "in".

So of course one should be able to achieve it with the PSIM 
(disregarding we want MORE!) ;-)

Florian

HAHAHH!!! No probs man, I suffer from similar issues. :)


The PSIM is a really cool little piece... SOOOOOOO simple in concept, just 
four ADCs -> Processor -> DACs. And having that proc be programmable from 
the outside in BASIC... dude. :)

I think this would be an AWESOME addition to anyone's rig. But like I (and 
you) said, Brice is kinda' outta' the picture these days and there are a 
bunch of folks pretty ticked off at him sitting on their cash.

C'mon Deiter! You gotta drop him a line after the Messe!

Mark
-------
Florian Anwander (08:33 AM 2/28/2008) wrote:

 >Hi Mark
 >
 >ouch sorry, my eyes get old: I only had a short look at the image and I
 >read "cv" instead off "in".
 >
 >So of course one should be able to achieve it with the PSIM
 >(disregarding we want MORE!) ;-)
 >
 >Florian

hey mark, thanks for that link. the logic-module of my dreams and you
can't get it any more ;(

it did however give me the idea of browsing through some
hobby-electronics catalogues. maybe i can find something with which i
could knoch together a similar module. the clock divider was only a
part of what i'm trying to get together, and a module like this one
would even make the divider superfluous.

i'd still buy a clock module, though.

stu

> The PSIM is a really cool little piece... SOOOOOOO simple in concept, just
> four ADCs -> Processor -> DACs. And having that proc be programmable from
> the outside in BASIC... dude. :)
>
> I think this would be an AWESOME addition to anyone's rig. But like I (and
> you) said, Brice is kinda' outta' the picture these days and there are a
> bunch of folks pretty ticked off at him sitting on their cash.
>
> C'mon Deiter! You gotta drop him a line after the Messe!

I don't think that this is necessary. We also have a module with several
ADCs -> Processor -> DACs in the waiting loop (universal AD/DA module).

But to speak the truth: I don't like modules that have to be programmed with
an external computer. We had and have such devices available that require an
editor software (e.g. Drehbank, Pocket Series, A-192). Apart from that I in
person don't like this mode of operation in principle we always had problems
to support all different operating systems (Windows 9x/2000/XP/Vista/Linux
distributions) or computer platforms (PC/Mac) or hardware combinations (e.g.
separate Midi interfaces, Midi interfaces of sound cards, driver problems
...). There is only one man in the company (Christian) who would have to
program the microcontroller, the editor software and to look after the
support for all possible hard/software combinations.

If we will offer such a module it should be a stand-alone device without the
need of an external computer to program it.
Maybe we will be able to expand the planned synced LFO module with some of
the functions you asked for.

Best wishes
Dieter Doepfer

>
> Maybe we will be able to expand the planned synced LFO module with some of
> the functions you asked for.
>
>   




wiwiwiwiwi !!!




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

...I´m SO much waiting and hoping for the multiple-synced LFO to show up!<html><div></div></html>


To: Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.comFrom: floppyscratcher@googlemail.comDate: Fri, 29 Feb 2008 11:19:07 +0100Subject: Re: AW: [Doepfer_a100] Re: clock division: am i missing something?




>> Maybe we will be able to expand the planned synced LFO module with some of> the functions you asked for.>> wiwiwiwiwi !!![Non-text portions of this message have been removed] 






_________________________________________________________________
Står karriären still? Låt någon annan hitta drömjobbet åt dig!
http://msn.jobbguiden.se/jobseeker/resumes/postresumenew/postresumestart.aspx?sc_cmp2=JS_INT_SEMSN_NLPCV

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

florian and dieter, you have both mentioned pics in this thread, and
i'm  sort of starting to check out now what they are, how they are
programmed etc. if either of you have any tips for a beginner -
products, shops, places to look or whatever - i'd be most grateful. At
the moment i'm browsing through the conrad catalogue, which assumes i
already know what i'm looking for. which of course i don't :)


cheers,

stu

Hopefully I am not spoiling the soup here, but an RS-232 interface
that accepts an ASCII configuration would eliminate the need for
client software. Not that that makes this proposition any more
attractive to anyone. ;)

Doug


--- In Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com, <hardware@...> wrote:
 
> But to speak the truth: I don't like modules that have to be
programmed with
> an external computer. We had and have such devices available that
require an
> editor software (e.g. Drehbank, Pocket Series, A-192). Apart from
that I in
> person don't like this mode of operation in principle we always had
problems
> to support all different operating systems (Windows
9x/2000/XP/Vista/Linux
> distributions) or computer platforms (PC/Mac) or hardware
combinations (e.g.
> separate Midi interfaces, Midi interfaces of sound cards, driver
problems

> ...). There is only one man in the company (Christian) who would have to
> program the microcontroller, the editor software and to look after the
> support for all possible hard/software combinations.
> 
>

--- In Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com, "Stu Grimshaw" <grimshaw@...> wrote:
>
> florian and dieter, you have both mentioned pics in this thread, and
> i'm  sort of starting to check out now what they are, how they are
> programmed etc. if either of you have any tips for a beginner -
> products, shops, places to look or whatever - i'd be most grateful. At
> the moment i'm browsing through the conrad catalogue, which assumes i
> already know what i'm looking for. which of course i don't :)
> 
> 
> cheers,
> 
> stu
>
If you're interested in dabbling with microcontrollers, you should
also check out the Arduino:
http://http://arduino.cc/

--- In Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com, "deastman2" <deastman2@...> wrote:
>
> --- In Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com, "Stu Grimshaw" <grimshaw@> wrote:
> >
> > florian and dieter, you have both mentioned pics in this thread, and
> > i'm  sort of starting to check out now what they are, how they are
> > programmed etc. if either of you have any tips for a beginner -
> > products, shops, places to look or whatever - i'd be most grateful. At
> > the moment i'm browsing through the conrad catalogue, which assumes i
> > already know what i'm looking for. which of course i don't :)
> > 
> > 
> > cheers,
> > 
> > stu
> >
> If you're interested in dabbling with microcontrollers, you should
> also check out the Arduino:
> http://http://arduino.cc/
>
Woops... mangled that url:  http://arduino.cc/

Hi Doug,

I think, the basic idea of Dieter is: "Do not make your product 
dependant on other products." And this would happen, when relying on 
computersoftware, which has to be compatible to new operating systems 
Try to run a software which talks to an RS232 on any Apple powerbook 
from the last four years and you know what I am talking about. I do not 
want to buy an additional USB to RS-232 converter, I do not want to add 
a driver for this. No I do not want have the hassle if this driver will 
be incompatible with the next version of the OS... I wrote five lines 
with only a few potential troubles and nowhere the name of Doepfer 
appeared.

I prefer the approach, where the A-100 system works as a standalone. Its 
enough that we are depending on the powerplants and on the PA systems...

Florian

Doug wrote:

> Hopefully I am not spoiling the soup here, but an RS-232 interface
> that accepts an ASCII configuration would eliminate the need for
> client software. Not that that makes this proposition any more
> attractive to anyone. ;)
> 
> Doug
> 
> 
> --- In Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com, <hardware@...> wrote:
>  
> 
>>But to speak the truth: I don't like modules that have to be
> 
> programmed with
> 
>>an external computer. We had and have such devices available that
> 
> require an
> 
>>editor software (e.g. Drehbank, Pocket Series, A-192). Apart from
> 
> that I in
> 
>>person don't like this mode of operation in principle we always had
> 
> problems
> 
>>to support all different operating systems (Windows
> 
> 9x/2000/XP/Vista/Linux
> 
>>distributions) or computer platforms (PC/Mac) or hardware
> 
> combinations (e.g.
> 
>>separate Midi interfaces, Midi interfaces of sound cards, driver
> 
> problems
> 
>>...). There is only one man in the company (Christian) who would have to
>>program the microcontroller, the editor software and to look after the
>>support for all possible hard/software combinations.
>>
>>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
> 

-- 
Florian Anwander                  |ConSol
Tel.   +49(89)45841-133           |Consulting&Solutions Software GmbH
Fax    +49(89)45841-111           |Franziskanerstr. 38, D-81669 München
email: florian.anwander@consol.de |http://www.consol.de

But... :)

Step back from the RS-232 side and swap in USB. Now look at all the MP3 
players on the market that are happy talking to a multitude of host 
platforms in order to get their content.

Point being... There _is_ a way to make this work. :)

The bummer is that there's code involved on one or both sides to make it 
happen, and I figure that Doepfer's not really in a position to start down 
the path of having an in-house embedded guy writing code. but that's solved 
by farming it out, many companies do it now. (Moog for example)

The host side is a bit trickier, even if you say "only Windows and Mac!". 
At this side you have two angles... a) write specific host code that is 
pretty and guides the user through changing the parameters of the device, 
or b) beef up the module side to have the brains, so that the host side is 
nothing more than a terminal app, possibly something that comes stock with 
the platform (terminal, telnet, ssh, etc).

If you beef the module side, now you're kinda'-pretty-much trapped into 
having only one rev of code to ever be in the module. It'll be hard to 
convince someone to sftp a new image from the host...

Spending quality time on the host side puts you now into needing not just 
an embedded coder to write the core of the module, but a Mac and Windows UI 
guy to do that side - or do the "portable" thing and come up with something 
cross-platform bloated in Java.

The coding headaches basically walk you down the path to the question of 
"do I spend less time on software and let the advanced/hacker customers 
rejoice" (that was Brice's focus with the PSIM) or "do I spend a boatload 
of resources on the software and possibly attract a larger customer base".

I would think that Doepfer isn't in the business position to have a 
small-run boutique module in the line up, which would mean that they'd go 
large and that translates to a significant outlay of resources _and_ more 
importantly, possibly shifting the direction of the company a hair. (e.g., 
they'd now have a generic _field programmable_ ADC->DAC module... what else 
can you do with it?? answer: a LOT)


I've lived with this decision point for years as a full time job. I'm an 
embedded coder that works with devices that have to interface to the 
outside world. It's a tough call to jump into something like this.

But, it goes without saying that the music geek in me would jump all over 
this in a heartbeat. The "geek that has to convince marketing" in me 
understands the other side though too. :)


Deiter, thank you for your response!

Mark
--------
Florian Anwander (07:30 AM 2/29/2008) wrote:

 >Hi Doug,
 >
 >I think, the basic idea of Dieter is: "Do not make your product
 >dependant on other products." And this would happen, when relying on
 >computersoftware, which has to be compatible to new operating systems
 >Try to run a software which talks to an RS232 on any Apple powerbook
 >from the last four years and you know what I am talking about. I do not
 >want to buy an additional USB to RS-232 converter, I do not want to add
 >a driver for this. No I do not want have the hassle if this driver will
 >be incompatible with the next version of the OS... I wrote five lines
 >with only a few potential troubles and nowhere the name of Doepfer
 >appeared.
 >
 >I prefer the approach, where the A-100 system works as a standalone. Its
 >enough that we are depending on the powerplants and on the PA systems...
 >
 >Florian
 >
 >Doug wrote:
 >
 >> Hopefully I am not spoiling the soup here, but an RS-232 interface
 >> that accepts an ASCII configuration would eliminate the need for
 >> client software. Not that that makes this proposition any more
 >> attractive to anyone. ;)
 >>
 >> Doug
 >>
 >>
 >> --- In Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com, <hardware@...> wrote:
 >>
 >>
 >>>But to speak the truth: I don't like modules that have to be
 >>
 >> programmed with
 >>
 >>>an external computer. We had and have such devices available that
 >>
 >> require an
 >>
 >>>editor software (e.g. Drehbank, Pocket Series, A-192). Apart from
 >>
 >> that I in
 >>
 >>>person don't like this mode of operation in principle we always had
 >>
 >> problems
 >>
 >>>to support all different operating systems (Windows
 >>
 >> 9x/2000/XP/Vista/Linux
 >>
 >>>distributions) or computer platforms (PC/Mac) or hardware
 >>
 >> combinations (e.g.
 >>
 >>>separate Midi interfaces, Midi interfaces of sound cards, driver
 >>
 >> problems
 >>
 >>>...). There is only one man in the company (Christian) who would have to
 >>>program the microcontroller, the editor software and to look after the
 >>>support for all possible hard/software combinations.

Yeup, I have one right here in front of me. It's a great platform.

Also, don't miss the Gumstix:

   http://gumstix.com/waysmalls.html

I have a couple of those laying around as well. :)

--------
deastman2 (07:57 AM 2/29/2008) wrote:

 >> If you're interested in dabbling with microcontrollers, you should
 >> also check out the Arduino:
 >> http://arduino.cc/

I've had headaches also trying to get ADSR's to fire in divided sync (A-
160) from either my A-190 or Kentons and it never was right.  

The final solution: The Flame Clockwork 
http://www.shelaq.de/flame/news_clockwork.htm

This box does it all.  Rock solid sync to midi and 3 gate outs that do 
regular beats, triptets and dotted. There's also a multi output that 
combines all three.  Plus, with CV outputs, LFO's, Random and a Midi to 
CV converter.  I've never had better timing before. This is the master 
clock we've been waiting for made for musicians.

> florian and dieter, you have both mentioned pics in this thread, and
> i'm sort of starting to check out now what they are, how they are
> programmed etc. if either of you have any tips for a beginner -
> products, shops, places to look or whatever - i'd be most grateful. At
> the moment i'm browsing through the conrad catalogue, which assumes i
> already know what i'm looking for. which of course i don't :)
>
> cheers,
>
> stu

I'm not the PIC specialist. I ask you to contact Christian Assall
(software@doepfer.de) off list. He knows all these details about PIC tools
(literature, assemblers, compilers, development boards/systems hard/software
emulators and so on).

Best wishes
Dieter Doepfer

> I'm not the PIC specialist. I ask you to contact Christian Assall
> (software@...) off list. He knows all these details about PIC tools
> (literature, assemblers, compilers, development boards/systems
hard/software
> emulators and so on).
> 
> Best wishes
> Dieter Doepfer
>

thanks dieter, i'll do that.

does anyone here have an opionion on the arduino boards? they're not
only popular with musicians but pretty cheap as well :) standalone use
is an important aspect, as well as timing and general reliability. and
the programming seems at first glance a little more intuitive than
assembler.

again, thanks for all the help,

stu