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wits end... pls help.

wits end... pls help.

2004-03-26 by kirkdegiorgio

OK.

I've tried to solve this problem without involving any forum members
but I'm at my wits end and would appreciate advice.

My system comprises of 2 1999 build Oakland panels and 1 2001
Hartland panel. My problems are with Panel 1.

Panel 1 is as follows:

CVI-NTO-PCO-NOI-MIX2-ADSR-UAP

About 3 years ago my PCO started wavering in pitch. I immediately
emailed Rex and he immediately mailed me a replacement VCO board with
instructions for a tech to follow to replace.

I didn't ever get a tech to fit this because a few days later the PCO
started working 100% again. Then a few weeks later the problem
appeared again - and then disappeared, etc. Then a weird thing
started happening. If the PCO was stable, the NTO would become
unstable - displaying identical behaviour - wavering pitch from all
OUTPUTS. Then they would swap again - the NTO would be rock solid -
the PCO unstable. Now the NTO is stable 95% of the time and only
occasionally becomes unstable. The PCO is therefore almost always
unusable.

For the past 3 yrs - due to a heavy and continuous work schedule -
and the Serge being my primary sound source since I sold my Waldorf
Wave, I have had to make do without the PCO. I have another NTO and
PCO on Panel 3 so not too much of a loss - although annoying to know
I had a $3k panel that was faulty.

Then a few months back I heard some crackling as I played the Serge.
I checked all cables and tried different mixer/interface inputs, etc.
Still occasional crackles out of both UAP OUTS. This problem got
worse until it crackled continually and became unusable.

Again - due to work deadlines I found a workaround and used the top
section of Panel 2's wave Multiplier as my VCA. Interestingly - if I
fed audio into the UAP and turned the GAIN up to hear it continuously
it would not crackle - it was only if I turned down the GAIN and
opened the UAP using voltage from an ADSR or DSG that the crackles
would appear.

Then I needed to use the Portamento IN of my NTO's for a patch. The
NTO on Panel 1 had a dead PORTAMENTO IN. With so many problems I
decided to email Rex again. He replied immediately and asked me to
ship the Panel to CA where somebody would have a look at it. He also
asked for a US cheque for this "repair". The repair amount was
considerable and added to the cost of insured shipping came to an
amount I was reluctant to pay. I asked Rex to reconsider but no
reply - I hope I didn't offend him.

So, I sent the panel to a modular manufacturer here in the UK. He
couldn't get the NTO or PCO to waver in pitch. He couldn't get the
UAP to crackle. He did say however that the PORTAMENTO IN was simply
a wire which had become detached and was flapping around loose
inside. An easy fix. He also noticed the LED on the PS4 was
flickering and found another loose connection which he removed
(a "loose VDR from the transformer primary").

He also found the VARIABLE WAVE POT o the NTO had "intermittent
connectivity to the +12V power rail" and replaced the pot.

He also found that when tuning the NTO and PCO close together they
would lock on to each other 'soft sync' style - he put this down to
panel design.

He gave it the all-clear and returned it to me. I powered it up and
within 3 hours the PCO began wavering and the UAP crackling
continuously. You can imagine my frustration.

This time I made a 500 mile round trip and took the whole system to
him and luckily the problems started within an hour of Power Up. This
time the NTO was unstable - the PCO stable, but the UAP was crackling
intermittently and getting progressively worse as the system warmed
up.

We tried evrything - gently flexing the front panel - wiggling the
power cables - checking them for kinks or breaks, I even tried a
different Power Distribution Board which I had spare from Rex when I
had a 4th panel. The only way we could stop the NTO wavering was to
turn the Freq knob fully CCW and use the CV offset source from Panel
3's Dual Processor to control the Freq via the V/OCT socket. This
indicated a faulty pot. So we ordered replacement pots for the NTO
Freq. PCO Freq and UAP GAIN -I stayed overnight in a hotel and next
day the tech replaced the 3 pots and all seemed well.

I've had the system powered up for 18 hours now - no crackles from
the UAP but the PCO is wavering all over the place again.

Does anybody know what the hell is going on with my panel?

and pls - I just want practical advice on how to get this fixed - no
discussion about what the tech has done or Rex' attitude towards the
repair, etc. These things can get very personal and political and I'm
really not interested - I just want my Serge 100% again.

regards

KD

Re: wits end... pls help.

2004-03-26 by John P

Kirk - saw your post, there's a lot to digest. Will offer some
suggestions later.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>K.
>
>

Re: wits end... pls help.

2004-03-26 by Peter Grenader

kirkdegiorgio wrote:

> About 3 years ago my PCO started wavering in pitch.


I fixed this problem on the six panel system of Darrel Johansens and on
another four panel system by simply squirting a (small) bit of Deox-it on
the freq pots. Now that doing this, you will be signing up to a never
ending term of periodic re-squirts, but this isn't a bad thing by any means.
Before I did this however, the wavering was severe.

Although....it sounds to me that you've got a PSU issue. Check the
linearity of the voltage coming off the supplies first - then check the
solder joints to the wires used in the power buss on that panel.

<<The repair amount was considerable and added to the cost of insured
shipping came to an amount I was reluctant to pay. I asked Rex to
reconsider but no reply - I hope I didn't offend him.>>

Offend him? How about he offending you? I know you said to not mention
it, but it accounts for a lot of your (justified) frustration. For the
outlay required to get one of these to begin with, and the fact that he's
using 'space-age' testing procedures (or whatever he calls it) - why aren't
you all getting a lifetime warranty?

thx guys...

2004-03-26 by kirkdegiorgio

John - any help is much appreciated... tearing my hair out...post
when you have time...

Peter - many thx for your help - I would like to try the things you
suggested but I'm really not experienced at all in electronics and
have never opened up stuff myself... and yes - I was expecting it to
be a return to STS repair job and me just pay for shipping kind of
deal.

I'm sure the tech checked the PSU voltage, etc - (he initially
suggested a beefed up supply might cure the problems as my Panels are
fairly stacked but the problems were still present when I disconnected
Panel's 2 & 3 so it can't be overloading the PSU).



KD
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> kirkdegiorgio wrote:
>
> > About 3 years ago my PCO started wavering in pitch.
>
>
> I fixed this problem on the six panel system of Darrel Johansens
and on
> another four panel system by simply squirting a (small) bit of Deox-
it on
> the freq pots. Now that doing this, you will be signing up to a
never
> ending term of periodic re-squirts, but this isn't a bad thing by
any means.
> Before I did this however, the wavering was severe.
>
> Although....it sounds to me that you've got a PSU issue. Check the
> linearity of the voltage coming off the supplies first - then check
the
> solder joints to the wires used in the power buss on that panel.
>
> <<The repair amount was considerable and added to the cost of
insured
> shipping came to an amount I was reluctant to pay. I asked Rex to
> reconsider but no reply - I hope I didn't offend him.>>
>
> Offend him? How about he offending you? I know you said to not
mention
> it, but it accounts for a lot of your (justified) frustration. For
the
> outlay required to get one of these to begin with, and the fact
that he's
> using 'space-age' testing procedures (or whatever he calls it) -
why aren't
> you all getting a lifetime warranty?

Re: wits end... pls help.

2004-03-26 by John P

I think you have a grounding problem going on in the neighborhood of the
NTO and PCO boards.

Examples: problem with grounding wire that runs from board to board, a
solder blob/metal sliver making contact against the INSIDE of the front
panel and some electronic part.. Check for any insulation
cracking/defects in the board-board power wiring and
board/jack/switch/pot wiring.
Try touching all the board-to-board power supply wiring & see what
happens. Carefully take the whole panel out and unscrew/unfold the
panel-rack assembly so you can see what's going on with the wiring.

Also, try a can of dust-off carefully on the boards and inside of the
front panel.

With the panel opened, hold it upright and tap it gently with a hard
object - see if any tiny thing falls out.

Another, more remote possibility, an electrolytic coupling cap or
semiconductor going bad.
You may try to isolate the problem by disconnecting the PCO or NTO from
the power lines - this is more difficult technically since everything's
daisy chained but it may reveal the true culprit.

The pots aren't the problem - you replaced them.
The PS4 isn't the problem - your other panels are working fine, right?
The PCO & NTO should not be soft-syncing unless you patch them that way.

Re: wits end... pls help.

2004-03-26 by kirkdegiorgio

--- In SergeModular@yahoogroups.com, John P <johnp299792@a...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> I think you have a grounding problem going on in the neighborhood
of the
> NTO and PCO boards.
>
> Examples: problem with grounding wire that runs from board to
board, a
> solder blob/metal sliver making contact against the INSIDE of the
front
> panel and some electronic part.. Check for any insulation
> cracking/defects in the board-board power wiring and
> board/jack/switch/pot wiring.
> Try touching all the board-to-board power supply wiring & see what
> happens. Carefully take the whole panel out and unscrew/unfold the
> panel-rack assembly so you can see what's going on with the wiring.
>
> Also, try a can of dust-off carefully on the boards and inside of
the
> front panel.
>
> With the panel opened, hold it upright and tap it gently with a
hard
> object - see if any tiny thing falls out.
>
> Another, more remote possibility, an electrolytic coupling cap or
> semiconductor going bad.
> You may try to isolate the problem by disconnecting the PCO or NTO
from
> the power lines - this is more difficult technically since
everything's
> daisy chained but it may reveal the true culprit.
>
> The pots aren't the problem - you replaced them.
> The PS4 isn't the problem - your other panels are working fine,
right?

correct... no problems

> The PCO & NTO should not be soft-syncing unless you patch them that
way.

that's what I thought too...

I'll try these out tomorrow... thx for taking time out to help :-)

KD

Thanks, Rx

2004-03-26 by Peter Grenader

For your vote of confidence.

Re: Thanks, Rx

2004-03-26 by kirkdegiorgio

> For your vote of confidence.

and please let me explain this comment if I may.

Now - can anybody tell me if they thought my post requesting help
regarding my faulty Serge panel could in *any* way be construed as
offensive to Rex?

After the helpful replies from Peter and John I recieved a private
email from Rex stating simply:

"Kirk,
Send all repairs to Peter Grenader from now on."

I asked him to explain and he simply replied:

"I have full faith, as you should, in Peter Grenader.
Please contact him for all your serge needs,
Thank you for your co-operation."

I think you can judge from the tone of Rex' replies that
he no longer wants my business or is interested in helping
get this panel repaired.

I'm completely baffled and upset about this. My 4 panels cost
a total of £8000+ to import to the UK and I have always tried to
positively contribute to all things Serge related. I never hassled
Rex when he took longer than expected building my 4th panel and have
always enjoyed a good relationship with him via phone until
these panel problems surfaced.

Peter's comments regarding testing procedure and a lifetime guarantee
are *his* opinions... I thought I was very diplomatic in my response
to his opinion and simply stated I was expecting a 'return to base -
shipping cost only type repair service'.


Added to that my ADSR on the faulty panel is now sending out
irregular CV amounts - if I set it to a short click it sometimes
opens more than it should - randomly.. does this give anybody any
further indication of what's wrong with the panel?

sigh...

KD

Re: wits end... pls help.

2004-03-27 by kirkdegiorgio

OK - back to the matter in hand.

Since the ADSR started sending out irregular voltages, the PCO is now
100% stable again. So it seems as if the modules are taking it in
turn to malfunction.

Any further thoughts?

KD

Re: wits end... pls help.

2004-03-27 by John P

Do you use the ADSR a lot? Are you sure it's being troublesome only now
and not long before?

kirkdegiorgio wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>OK - back to the matter in hand.
>
>Since the ADSR started sending out irregular voltages, the PCO is now
>100% stable again. So it seems as if the modules are taking it in
>turn to malfunction.
>
>Any further thoughts?
>
>KD
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Keep on Patchin'!
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Re: wits end... pls help.

2004-03-27 by kirkdegiorgio

I can say for certain that *yes* it has done this before. I mentioned
it to Rex whebn I listed the faults. But it hasn't done it for
awhile - at least I haven't noticed it for a year or so.

But it may well have been doing it more often cos this is the first
time in a long while that I've patched up short percussive sounds -
so maybe I haven't noticed it on the sounds using longer envelopes.
Easier to spot on the short snappy sounds.

I have mp3's of all these faults if it would help diagnosis.

KD


:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> Do you use the ADSR a lot? Are you sure it's being troublesome
only now
> and not long before?
>
> kirkdegiorgio wrote:
>
> >OK - back to the matter in hand.
> >
> >Since the ADSR started sending out irregular voltages, the PCO is
now
> >100% stable again. So it seems as if the modules are taking it in
> >turn to malfunction.
> >
> >Any further thoughts?
> >
> >KD
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Keep on Patchin'!
> >
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >

Re: Thanks, Rx

2004-03-27 by Peter Grenader

I don't blame Rex at all for saying what he did.

While I take full responsibility for my comments, please remember they are
my opinions and nothing more. Synth prices aren't regulated by the
government and neither are the business practices of their manufacturers or
the reaction of the customer base to them.

Please understand however - I've got nothing against Serge's designs. They
are fine musical instruments and I've never intended my comments to be taken
that way.




kirkdegiorgio wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
>> For your vote of confidence.
>
> and please let me explain this comment if I may.
>
> Now - can anybody tell me if they thought my post requesting help
> regarding my faulty Serge panel could in *any* way be construed as
> offensive to Rex?
>
> After the helpful replies from Peter and John I recieved a private
> email from Rex stating simply:
>
> "Kirk,
> Send all repairs to Peter Grenader from now on."
>
> I asked him to explain and he simply replied:
>
> "I have full faith, as you should, in Peter Grenader.
> Please contact him for all your serge needs,
> Thank you for your co-operation."
>
> I think you can judge from the tone of Rex' replies that
> he no longer wants my business or is interested in helping
> get this panel repaired.
>
> I'm completely baffled and upset about this. My 4 panels cost
> a total of £8000+ to import to the UK and I have always tried to
> positively contribute to all things Serge related. I never hassled
> Rex when he took longer than expected building my 4th panel and have
> always enjoyed a good relationship with him via phone until
> these panel problems surfaced.
>
> Peter's comments regarding testing procedure and a lifetime guarantee
> are *his* opinions... I thought I was very diplomatic in my response
> to his opinion and simply stated I was expecting a 'return to base -
> shipping cost only type repair service'.
>
>
> Added to that my ADSR on the faulty panel is now sending out
> irregular CV amounts - if I set it to a short click it sometimes
> opens more than it should - randomly.. does this give anybody any
> further indication of what's wrong with the panel?
>
> sigh...
>
> KD
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Keep on Patchin'!
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>

Re: Thanks, Rx

2004-03-27 by James R. Coplin

A couple of thoughts...

I mean, there is a warrantee period but it isn't infinite. Things go wrong,
break, get weird, in anything. Why are we surprised it happens in our Serge?
Also, not to throw rocks, but it does sound like you took a long time to
getting around to bringing it to the attention of either Rex or a tech. I
understand life is busy but that's surely not Rex's fault. I've had plenty
of gear that I was negligent on getting it into a shop and the problems went
from small annoyances to major problems. The fact they didn't get the
attention they deserved is certainly my fault, not the manufacturers.

Also, I don't see a problem with Rex having someone else doing repair. We
are talking about a miniscule company here. Rex has one guy doing assembly
with Rex doing everything else. This makes a whopping 2 employee company.
What's wring with having Peter do the repair work? I'd be happy to send my
stuff to Peter for repair. I didn't realize he took in Serges. I'm glad to
hear it if its true.

Finally, I have had a couple of issues with my SSG on my system and Rex went
*way* out of his way to help me out and get me back running. If it had ended
up with me having to send the panel somewhere Rex recommended I wouldn't
have minded. I understand being in England makes this more of a hassle but
again, I don't see how where you live is Rex's fault. I reread the email you
quoted from Rex and I don't see anything to suggest that Rex was annoyed or
pissed off. Email is so emotion neutral that we often read far more into it
then we should. Think of all the flame wars and discussing gone awry based
on a misinterpreted word and you'll know what I mean. Probably just like
this mail will be interpreted. Somehow :) just doesn't seem to cut it.

James R. Coplin
***************
If anyone asks of my whereabouts,
simply tell them i've gone out the window
for a spot of tea and am not
expected back any time soon.
***************
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> -----Original Message-----
> From: kirkdegiorgio [mailto:kirk.degiorgio@...]
> Sent: Friday, March 26, 2004 6:43 PM
> To: SergeModular@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [SergeModular] Re: Thanks, Rx
>
>
> > For your vote of confidence.
>
> and please let me explain this comment if I may.
>
> Now - can anybody tell me if they thought my post requesting help
> regarding my faulty Serge panel could in *any* way be construed as
> offensive to Rex?
>
> After the helpful replies from Peter and John I recieved a private
> email from Rex stating simply:
>
> "Kirk,
> Send all repairs to Peter Grenader from now on."
>
> I asked him to explain and he simply replied:
>
> "I have full faith, as you should, in Peter Grenader.
> Please contact him for all your serge needs,
> Thank you for your co-operation."
>
> I think you can judge from the tone of Rex' replies that
> he no longer wants my business or is interested in helping
> get this panel repaired.
>
> I'm completely baffled and upset about this. My 4 panels cost
> a total of £8000+ to import to the UK and I have always tried to
> positively contribute to all things Serge related. I never hassled
> Rex when he took longer than expected building my 4th panel and have
> always enjoyed a good relationship with him via phone until
> these panel problems surfaced.
>
> Peter's comments regarding testing procedure and a lifetime guarantee
> are *his* opinions... I thought I was very diplomatic in my response
> to his opinion and simply stated I was expecting a 'return to base -
> shipping cost only type repair service'.
>
>
> Added to that my ADSR on the faulty panel is now sending out
> irregular CV amounts - if I set it to a short click it sometimes
> opens more than it should - randomly.. does this give anybody any
> further indication of what's wrong with the panel?
>
> sigh...
>
> KD
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Keep on Patchin'!
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

Re: Thanks, Rx

2004-03-27 by kirkdegiorgio

Hi James

> A couple of thoughts...
>
> I mean, there is a warrantee period but it isn't infinite. Things go wrong,
> break, get weird, in anything. Why are we surprised it happens in our Serge?

who is surprised? Every synth I've ever owned has gone wrong. Was somebody surprised?

> Also, not to throw rocks, but it does sound like you took a long time to
> getting around to bringing it to the attention of either Rex or a tech. I
> understand life is busy but that's surely not Rex's fault.

I reported the faulty PCO immediately and Rex express delivered 'free of charge' a
replacement board with instructions for a tech - great service. However, both the NTO &
PCO then started wavering alternately (taking turns monthly) so replacing a single VCO
board wasn't going to solve the problem. My work schedule then took precedence, moved
house, had a baby boy, etc. I proceeded with 1 VCO less for 2 yrs.

Now the NTO, PCO, UAP and ADSR are all faulty a repair is unavoidable.

I've had plenty
> of gear that I was negligent on getting it into a shop and the problems went
> from small annoyances to major problems. The fact they didn't get the
> attention they deserved is certainly my fault, not the manufacturers.

Why - did somebody say this was the manufacturers fault?
>
> Also, I don't see a problem with Rex having someone else doing repair.

Nor do I... who said they did have a problem with this?

We
> are talking about a miniscule company here. Rex has one guy doing assembly
> with Rex doing everything else. This makes a whopping 2 employee company.
> What's wring with having Peter do the repair work? I'd be happy to send my
> stuff to Peter for repair. I didn't realize he took in Serges. I'm glad to
> hear it if its true.

Great - that's 2 recommendations for Peter to repair my panel. That is helpful because
until today I knew nothing about Peter except his Milton sequencer. But I don't
understand. Rex didn't recommend me send the panel to Peter when I listed the faults
recently. He asked me to mail it to Kevin in CA (the assembler?) with a cheque for $$$
for the repair.

> Finally, I have had a couple of issues with my SSG on my system and Rex went
> *way* out of his way to help me out and get me back running. If it had ended
> up with me having to send the panel somewhere Rex recommended I wouldn't
> have minded.

I wouldn't have minded either... it was the request for a US cheque for a significant amount
of $$$ to be sent with the panel before any diagnosis of the problem that I thought
unreasonable. Even then I politely asked Rex if this amount was negotiable to which I
recieved no reply.


I understand being in England makes this more of a hassle but
> again, I don't see how where you live is Rex's fault. I reread the email you
> quoted from Rex and I don't see anything to suggest that Rex was annoyed or
> pissed off.

Good. Then I wrongly interpreted that Rex is no longer willing for his 'assembler' to fix the
problem, is not interested in discussing the upfront repair payment and is on the contrary
being extremely helpful by recommending me somebody he knows can get the job done.
Great - apologies allround.

Now - do you have any suggestions about what is happening with my faulty panel?

KD

Re: Thanks, Rx

2004-03-27 by Bill Sequeira

A couple of additional thoughts in terms of repair alternatives.

Kevin Fortune is one of the most qualified (if not *the* most qualified) to
service Serge panels.

Then there is Kevin Lightner, very highly qualified as well.

Seems to me that there are repair choices other than STS to do the work -
that is, if the real issue in all this thread is the cost of repairing the
panel. Overseas shipping costs are unavoidable if the panel has to be sent
to this side of the pond.

Regards,

Bill
______________________________________________________________________
Bill Sequeira, Ph.D.
Principal, Axon Hillock
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> From: "James R. Coplin" <moog@...>
> Reply-To: SergeModular@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 19:53:03 -0600
> To: SergeModular@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [SergeModular] Re: Thanks, Rx
>
> A couple of thoughts...
>
> I mean, there is a warrantee period but it isn't infinite. Things go wrong,
> break, get weird, in anything. Why are we surprised it happens in our Serge?
> Also, not to throw rocks, but it does sound like you took a long time to
> getting around to bringing it to the attention of either Rex or a tech. I
> understand life is busy but that's surely not Rex's fault. I've had plenty
> of gear that I was negligent on getting it into a shop and the problems went
> from small annoyances to major problems. The fact they didn't get the
> attention they deserved is certainly my fault, not the manufacturers.
>
> Also, I don't see a problem with Rex having someone else doing repair. We
> are talking about a miniscule company here. Rex has one guy doing assembly
> with Rex doing everything else. This makes a whopping 2 employee company.
> What's wring with having Peter do the repair work? I'd be happy to send my
> stuff to Peter for repair. I didn't realize he took in Serges. I'm glad to
> hear it if its true.
>
> Finally, I have had a couple of issues with my SSG on my system and Rex went
> *way* out of his way to help me out and get me back running. If it had ended
> up with me having to send the panel somewhere Rex recommended I wouldn't
> have minded. I understand being in England makes this more of a hassle but
> again, I don't see how where you live is Rex's fault. I reread the email you
> quoted from Rex and I don't see anything to suggest that Rex was annoyed or
> pissed off. Email is so emotion neutral that we often read far more into it
> then we should. Think of all the flame wars and discussing gone awry based
> on a misinterpreted word and you'll know what I mean. Probably just like
> this mail will be interpreted. Somehow :) just doesn't seem to cut it.
>
> James R. Coplin
> ***************
> If anyone asks of my whereabouts,
> simply tell them i've gone out the window
> for a spot of tea and am not
> expected back any time soon.
> ***************
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: kirkdegiorgio [mailto:kirk.degiorgio@...]
>> Sent: Friday, March 26, 2004 6:43 PM
>> To: SergeModular@yahoogroups.com
>> Subject: [SergeModular] Re: Thanks, Rx
>>
>>
>>> For your vote of confidence.
>>
>> and please let me explain this comment if I may.
>>
>> Now - can anybody tell me if they thought my post requesting help
>> regarding my faulty Serge panel could in *any* way be construed as
>> offensive to Rex?
>>
>> After the helpful replies from Peter and John I recieved a private
>> email from Rex stating simply:
>>
>> "Kirk,
>> Send all repairs to Peter Grenader from now on."
>>
>> I asked him to explain and he simply replied:
>>
>> "I have full faith, as you should, in Peter Grenader.
>> Please contact him for all your serge needs,
>> Thank you for your co-operation."
>>
>> I think you can judge from the tone of Rex' replies that
>> he no longer wants my business or is interested in helping
>> get this panel repaired.
>>
>> I'm completely baffled and upset about this. My 4 panels cost
>> a total of £8000+ to import to the UK and I have always tried to
>> positively contribute to all things Serge related. I never hassled
>> Rex when he took longer than expected building my 4th panel and have
>> always enjoyed a good relationship with him via phone until
>> these panel problems surfaced.
>>
>> Peter's comments regarding testing procedure and a lifetime guarantee
>> are *his* opinions... I thought I was very diplomatic in my response
>> to his opinion and simply stated I was expecting a 'return to base -
>> shipping cost only type repair service'.
>>
>>
>> Added to that my ADSR on the faulty panel is now sending out
>> irregular CV amounts - if I set it to a short click it sometimes
>> opens more than it should - randomly.. does this give anybody any
>> further indication of what's wrong with the panel?
>>
>> sigh...
>>
>> KD
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Keep on Patchin'!
>>
>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Keep on Patchin'!
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>

Re: Thanks, Rx

2004-03-27 by Chris Whitten

Bill and other Serge members,
One or two points on this that come to my mind.
Wasn't there an issue with STS refusing to release schematics?
I could be wrong here, but I always assumed from speaking to Rex that he
advised strongly against having any technical work carried out by non STS
staff. Hence Kirk's surprise (in my opinion) at being diverted away from STS
on this occasion.
It would now serve as a warning to non US Serge owners, that any Serge
repairs are going to be costly, especially as all the repair persons so far
listed are on the wrong side of the pond (as far as we are concerned).
It was always my impression from speaking to Rex that Serge panels were
built by highly qualified engineers with the highest quality components.
It's therefore surprising (although I admit not particularly Rex's fault)
that Kirk has experienced such catastrophic failures so early into his
ownership.
I've been to Kirk's studio and I can tell you he treats his gear with kid
gloves. The studio is spotless and Kirk himself is fastidious, to the point
of obsession, in keeping all his gear pristine and well looked after and
maintained.
I know Kirk has done a lot to spread the Serge faith throughout Europe (and
to whomever he's run into in the course of his work). He's also a Serge user
who has regular commercial releases and it's therefore a big bummer that he
feels let down either by the instrument, the after sales care by STS, or by
Rex's comments.
Don't attribute this last comment to him. This is just the impression I get
from reading his last few postings to the group.

Serge repairs

2004-03-27 by Peter Grenader

Although STS does not distribute schematics to service people, there are
plenty enough to go around through the standard channels. The system at Cal
arts' had 24 serious problems across six panels involving 20 or so modules
and there's wasn't one schematic I couldn't find, although I will not
distribute what I have, as they are not my property.

Troubleshooting and repair however is a logical process and any qualified
technician will have no problem with the Serge circuits. While sending a
unit to STS will afford the benefit of quick replacement of some of the key
components, there wasn't one instance in which either the original or a
acceptable substitute was unobtainable to me through Mouser - and many of
them are what Phil Gallo refers to as '2AM parts', meaning you can find them
at your local Radio Shack or electronics store. It's not like the Buchla
which is littered with obsoletes.

For any listening, technicians working on Serge instruments should look at
the CA3080s and LM3900's first when troubleshooting, as I found these were
by far the two most replaced components on the two systems I repaired.
Next, the pots, especially if the unit you're working with has the blue
'sealed' Allen Bradleys. Also remember that many of the older units out
there were kits - so solder joints should be of concern as well.

Hope that helps,

P




Chris Whitten wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> Bill and other Serge members,
> One or two points on this that come to my mind.
> Wasn't there an issue with STS refusing to release schematics?
> I could be wrong here, but I always assumed from speaking to Rex that he
> advised strongly against having any technical work carried out by non STS
> staff. Hence Kirk's surprise (in my opinion) at being diverted away from STS
> on this occasion.
> It would now serve as a warning to non US Serge owners, that any Serge
> repairs are going to be costly, especially as all the repair persons so far
> listed are on the wrong side of the pond (as far as we are concerned).
> It was always my impression from speaking to Rex that Serge panels were
> built by highly qualified engineers with the highest quality components.
> It's therefore surprising (although I admit not particularly Rex's fault)
> that Kirk has experienced such catastrophic failures so early into his
> ownership.
> I've been to Kirk's studio and I can tell you he treats his gear with kid
> gloves. The studio is spotless and Kirk himself is fastidious, to the point
> of obsession, in keeping all his gear pristine and well looked after and
> maintained.
> I know Kirk has done a lot to spread the Serge faith throughout Europe (and
> to whomever he's run into in the course of his work). He's also a Serge user
> who has regular commercial releases and it's therefore a big bummer that he
> feels let down either by the instrument, the after sales care by STS, or by
> Rex's comments.
> Don't attribute this last comment to him. This is just the impression I get
> from reading his last few postings to the group.
>
>
>
> Keep on Patchin'!
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>

Re: Serge repairs

2004-03-27 by Scott Stites

Just curious, Peter - were you among the original builders of the Serge when
it was still a 'Synth for the People'?

Cheers,
Scott


----- Original Message -----
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: "Peter Grenader" <peter@...>
To: <SergeModular@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2004 10:37 AM
Subject: [SergeModular] Serge repairs


> Although STS does not distribute schematics to service people, there are
> plenty enough to go around through the standard channels. The system at
Cal
> arts' had 24 serious problems across six panels involving 20 or so modules
> and there's wasn't one schematic I couldn't find, although I will not
> distribute what I have, as they are not my property.
>
> Troubleshooting and repair however is a logical process and any qualified
> technician will have no problem with the Serge circuits. While sending a
> unit to STS will afford the benefit of quick replacement of some of the
key
> components, there wasn't one instance in which either the original or a
> acceptable substitute was unobtainable to me through Mouser - and many of
> them are what Phil Gallo refers to as '2AM parts', meaning you can find
them
> at your local Radio Shack or electronics store. It's not like the Buchla
> which is littered with obsoletes.
>
> For any listening, technicians working on Serge instruments should look at
> the CA3080s and LM3900's first when troubleshooting, as I found these were
> by far the two most replaced components on the two systems I repaired.
> Next, the pots, especially if the unit you're working with has the blue
> 'sealed' Allen Bradleys. Also remember that many of the older units out
> there were kits - so solder joints should be of concern as well.
>
> Hope that helps,
>
> P
>
>
>
>
> Chris Whitten wrote:
>
> > Bill and other Serge members,
> > One or two points on this that come to my mind.
> > Wasn't there an issue with STS refusing to release schematics?
> > I could be wrong here, but I always assumed from speaking to Rex that he

> > advised strongly against having any technical work carried out by non
STS
> > staff. Hence Kirk's surprise (in my opinion) at being diverted away from
STS
> > on this occasion.
> > It would now serve as a warning to non US Serge owners, that any Serge
> > repairs are going to be costly, especially as all the repair persons so
far
> > listed are on the wrong side of the pond (as far as we are concerned).
> > It was always my impression from speaking to Rex that Serge panels were
> > built by highly qualified engineers with the highest quality components.
> > It's therefore surprising (although I admit not particularly Rex's
fault)
> > that Kirk has experienced such catastrophic failures so early into his
> > ownership.
> > I've been to Kirk's studio and I can tell you he treats his gear with
kid
> > gloves. The studio is spotless and Kirk himself is fastidious, to the
point
> > of obsession, in keeping all his gear pristine and well looked after and
> > maintained.
> > I know Kirk has done a lot to spread the Serge faith throughout Europe
(and
> > to whomever he's run into in the course of his work). He's also a Serge
user
> > who has regular commercial releases and it's therefore a big bummer that
he
> > feels let down either by the instrument, the after sales care by STS, or
by
> > Rex's comments.
> > Don't attribute this last comment to him. This is just the impression I
get
> > from reading his last few postings to the group.
> >
> >
> >
> > Keep on Patchin'!
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> Keep on Patchin'!
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>

Re: Thanks, Rx (the Synth Nazi)

2004-03-27 by khtippet

I really can't believe what I am reading in this group.

Kirk writes what seems to me to be an extremely inoffensive letter
asking for help. He's obviously already terrified of offending
Rex, because he says over and over again that he doesn't want to
offend him. Then Peter says that he would be justified in being
angry. Kirk, still afraid to piss off Rex, says that he expected
better service. Next thing you know, Kirk is "cut off" by Rex, and
Peter starts backtracking, by saying he doesn't blame Rex for doing
it.

Plainly, this Rex character is lurking on this group. But, when he
reveals himself, it isn't to offer a helpful suggestion, its to tell
Kirk to look elsewhere for all his Serve needs. Its like Seinfeld
("No more soup for you!) except that its not funny because you guys
have spent so much on your machines

I joined this group because I was seriously contemplating a large
investment in Serge equipment. However, reading the posts on this
group has thoroughly convinced me to have nothing to do with the
company. And you guys are the "true believers." God knows what I'd
hear from the disaffected. Its probably just as well I have now
lost interest since this Rex guy is probably reading this post and
will now refuse to sell to me.

There are plenty of great machines made by people who are not such
fascist primma donnas. I plan to take my business to one of them.




--- In SergeModular@yahoogroups.com, Peter Grenader <peter@b...>
wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> For your vote of confidence.

Re: Thanks, Rx (the Synth Nazi)

2004-03-28 by John P

Rex cut Kirk off not on some whim, but rather after 3 years of
communications and other efforts that didn't go anywhere.
Tell me, how much time & money is he supposed to spend to support a unit
out of warranty?
Has anybody had any dealings with Rex re service where he *didn't* go an
extra mile or ten?

Re: Serge repairs

2004-03-28 by Peter Grenader

I was there for about a four to five month period after Serge had left the
school Arts and was on Western Blvd in Hollywood after I graduated from Cal
Arts. I did some work for Serge not related to that effort, but it was
minimal (laminating faceplates and helping pulling kits mostly). Gary
Chang, Jill Fraser, Kevin Braheny and Darrel Johanson were there in a much
more full time basis at the time - with Gary, Jill, Darrel and I being
school chums from Cal Arts.

This was during the Allen Bradley sealed pot period when the TBK was just
being prototyped and Darrel did the Equal Power panners. Darrel was making
some great changes in the company - first with a modernization of the
faceplate graphics and then taking them away for the bumper stickers
altogether. His experience brought some great professionalism to the group
as he knew how electronic assembly should operate.





Scott Stites wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> Just curious, Peter - were you among the original builders of the Serge when
> it was still a 'Synth for the People'?
>
> Cheers,
> Scott
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Peter Grenader" <peter@...>
> To: <SergeModular@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2004 10:37 AM
> Subject: [SergeModular] Serge repairs
>
>
>> Although STS does not distribute schematics to service people, there are
>> plenty enough to go around through the standard channels. The system at
> Cal
>> arts' had 24 serious problems across six panels involving 20 or so modules
>> and there's wasn't one schematic I couldn't find, although I will not
>> distribute what I have, as they are not my property.
>>
>> Troubleshooting and repair however is a logical process and any qualified
>> technician will have no problem with the Serge circuits. While sending a
>> unit to STS will afford the benefit of quick replacement of some of the
> key
>> components, there wasn't one instance in which either the original or a
>> acceptable substitute was unobtainable to me through Mouser - and many of
>> them are what Phil Gallo refers to as '2AM parts', meaning you can find
> them
>> at your local Radio Shack or electronics store. It's not like the Buchla
>> which is littered with obsoletes.
>>
>> For any listening, technicians working on Serge instruments should look at
>> the CA3080s and LM3900's first when troubleshooting, as I found these were
>> by far the two most replaced components on the two systems I repaired.
>> Next, the pots, especially if the unit you're working with has the blue
>> 'sealed' Allen Bradleys. Also remember that many of the older units out
>> there were kits - so solder joints should be of concern as well.
>>
>> Hope that helps,
>>
>> P
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Chris Whitten wrote:
>>
>>> Bill and other Serge members,
>>> One or two points on this that come to my mind.
>>> Wasn't there an issue with STS refusing to release schematics?
>>> I could be wrong here, but I always assumed from speaking to Rex that he
>
>>> advised strongly against having any technical work carried out by non
> STS
>>> staff. Hence Kirk's surprise (in my opinion) at being diverted away from
> STS
>>> on this occasion.
>>> It would now serve as a warning to non US Serge owners, that any Serge
>>> repairs are going to be costly, especially as all the repair persons so
> far
>>> listed are on the wrong side of the pond (as far as we are concerned).
>>> It was always my impression from speaking to Rex that Serge panels were
>>> built by highly qualified engineers with the highest quality components.
>>> It's therefore surprising (although I admit not particularly Rex's
> fault)
>>> that Kirk has experienced such catastrophic failures so early into his
>>> ownership.
>>> I've been to Kirk's studio and I can tell you he treats his gear with
> kid
>>> gloves. The studio is spotless and Kirk himself is fastidious, to the
> point
>>> of obsession, in keeping all his gear pristine and well looked after and
>>> maintained.
>>> I know Kirk has done a lot to spread the Serge faith throughout Europe
> (and
>>> to whomever he's run into in the course of his work). He's also a Serge
> user
>>> who has regular commercial releases and it's therefore a big bummer that
> he
>>> feels let down either by the instrument, the after sales care by STS, or
> by
>>> Rex's comments.
>>> Don't attribute this last comment to him. This is just the impression I
> get
>>> from reading his last few postings to the group.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Keep on Patchin'!
>>>
>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Keep on Patchin'!
>>
>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
> Keep on Patchin'!
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>

Re:

2004-03-28 by Chris Whitten

> Rex cut Kirk off not on some whim, but rather after 3 years of
> communications and other efforts that didn't go anywhere.
> Tell me, how much time & money is he supposed to spend to support a unit
> out of warranty?
John,
You're talking like this was a weekly phone call.
I heard from Kirk about two or three times a year that he was having
problems with his Serge. I would not be surprised if Rex was contacted as
infrequently. My impression was that Kirk was trying to soldier
on......mainly because his Serge is his main instrument and his business can
not withstand several months of inactivity.
Don't let your love of Rex and all things Serge get in the way of the facts.
CW

Re: Thanks, Rx (the Synth Nazi)

2004-03-28 by Peter Grenader

Great letter, well said.

My assersion of not blaming Rex was not meant as a backtrack, but only a
clarification which comes after 2 years of my public dissatisfaction and
frankly, because of that I don't blame Rex for his sarcasm yesterday - I'd
do the same thing. But one must read between the lines in my thanks for his
vote of confidence.

I did want to be clear however that I've never had a problem with the
machine STS is manufacturing - and this is heartfelt and out of my respect
for Serge Tcherepnin, which runs deep.

P





khtippet wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> I really can't believe what I am reading in this group.
>
> Kirk writes what seems to me to be an extremely inoffensive letter
> asking for help. He's obviously already terrified of offending
> Rex, because he says over and over again that he doesn't want to
> offend him. Then Peter says that he would be justified in being
> angry. Kirk, still afraid to piss off Rex, says that he expected
> better service. Next thing you know, Kirk is "cut off" by Rex, and
> Peter starts backtracking, by saying he doesn't blame Rex for doing
> it.
>
> Plainly, this Rex character is lurking on this group. But, when he
> reveals himself, it isn't to offer a helpful suggestion, its to tell
> Kirk to look elsewhere for all his Serve needs. Its like Seinfeld
> ("No more soup for you!) except that its not funny because you guys
> have spent so much on your machines
>
> I joined this group because I was seriously contemplating a large
> investment in Serge equipment. However, reading the posts on this
> group has thoroughly convinced me to have nothing to do with the
> company. And you guys are the "true believers." God knows what I'd
> hear from the disaffected. Its probably just as well I have now
> lost interest since this Rex guy is probably reading this post and
> will now refuse to sell to me.
>
> There are plenty of great machines made by people who are not such
> fascist primma donnas. I plan to take my business to one of them.
>
>
>
>
> --- In SergeModular@yahoogroups.com, Peter Grenader <peter@b...>
> wrote:
>> For your vote of confidence.
>
>
>
> Keep on Patchin'!
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>

Re: Thanks, Rx

2004-03-28 by Chris Whitten

>> Kirk writes what seems to me to be an extremely inoffensive letter
>> asking for help. He's obviously already terrified of offending
>> Rex, because he says over and over again that he doesn't want to
>> offend him. Then Peter says that he would be justified in being
>> angry. Kirk, still afraid to piss off Rex, says that he expected
>> better service. Next thing you know, Kirk is "cut off" by Rex, and
>> Peter starts backtracking, by saying he doesn't blame Rex for doing
>> it.
It does seem a weird way to go about business.
CW

Re: Thanks, Rx

2004-03-28 by cuari7

Tough situation.
As a Serge owner (and lover) I feel compelled to give my twopence
worth: We are all aware that Sound Transform Systems has undergone a
significant downscaling over the last 2-3 years; Rex has always told
us so. They went from a five? people outfit that would meet a
promised lead time of 6 wks. per panel to the minute, to just Rex
and a very unreliable and informal builder. I've been constantly
aware of this, and have waited a long time for a custom panel to be
completed, and yet have chosen to place even another order for
another custom panel. Why? Because I love the product. Period. And
out of this love for the synth I accept the imperfections of the
company, and reset my expectations from it at a lower level. In all
fairness to Rex, when I asked him for a estimated lead time for
these latest orders, he replied: "I don't know." And it was cool
with me.
One thing is undeniable: Mr. Probe is a very helpful and reasonable
individual, and has always provided ME with excellent service (long
lead times notwithstanding). Last custom panel I purchased had a
little quirk with the quadrature oscillator in its freq. shifter (it
would not put out a sine wave). I sent it back, they checked it and
found it was working perfectly (just like Kirk's temperamental
panel); still, they replaced the quad. oscillator, and I've had no
problems whatsoever with this baby.
The bottom line is: this ain't Yamaha or Korg, guys. It's a tiny,
boutique-shop company with a product which I think is not for
everybody. For immediate modular gratification I would suggest
Doepfer or ASys (or a nice Cwejman!). Otherwise, if you want a Serge
that badly, be aware of the limitations of the company. I know about
them, and yet continue to have Serge as the main modular system in
my studio.

J. Diaz, aka cuari

Re: Thanks, Rx

2004-03-28 by kirkdegiorgio

--- In SergeModular@yahoogroups.com, John P <johnp299792@a...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> Rex cut Kirk off not on some whim, but rather after 3 years of
> communications and other efforts that didn't go anywhere.
> Tell me, how much time & money is he supposed to spend to support a unit
> out of warranty?
> Has anybody had any dealings with Rex re service where he *didn't* go an
> extra mile or ten?

Hi John

the nature of the faults is partly to blame for me "stalling" on getting
the panel looked at. The other factor is my work schedule.

The faults are maddeningly intermittent. I would be all set to ship the panel
to Rex and then the problems would disappear. It was only when the ADSR and
UAP on the same panel began erratic that the situation became critical.

I previously contacted Rex "twice" about the faults. First time he mailed me the VCO board
- which turned out wouldn't be the solution as the other faults developed soon after.

Second time he asked me to ship to Kevin. Due to workload I didn't do this
for 18 months - then the faults became critical hence my last request for the shipping
details as I could no longer work around the problems.

On all 3 occasions Rex replied immediately and showed willing to get the panel looked at
as quickly as possible. No complaints here. The loss of contact came when I queried the
request for an upfront payment for the repair.

This example will demonstrate how the nature of the faults have complicated matters -last
week a well respected tech inspected the panel and after 2 days
returned the panel to me because he could not find the faults I listed. The
VCO's, ADSR, UAP all behaved perfectly at his workshop.

The problems then returned 3 hours after I got it back home.

I personally drove the system to this tech for a second time and this time the
problems did appear.

Can you see how frustrating this has been for 3 years? Bear in mind these problems
would only sometimes arise in a complex patch - I'm a relative novice in Modular synth
terms and sometimes I could never be sure if the panel was actually faulty or whether
I was doing some weird modulating in the patch, etc.

As for how much time and money I would expect from STS for an out of warranty unit?
That's completely up to Rex.. as a customer I just expect people to be courteous and
reasonable, as I try to be.

KD

Re: Thanks, Rx

2004-03-28 by kirkdegiorgio

Cuari

I pretty much agree with everything you've said - I even put in an order for my
Hartland build panel knowing I had an intermittent problem with one of my Oakland
panels. Why? Cos I love the product too - I had every faith that I was in good hands
regarding my faulty panel. I had made Rex aware of the problems and when either the
problems got serious and permanent (rather than intermittent) or my work schedule
slowed down I thought I would be able to get the panel looked at properly so long as Rex
was still in business.

When you returned your panel did Rex ask you for an upfront
payment to cover the repair?

KD

Re: Thanks, Rx

2004-03-28 by John P

Hi Kirk,

I understand that since this problem is intermittent makes it terribly
frustrating to solve, for both you and any tech that might look at it.
This is true for anything, synthesizers, cars, dishwashers....
That's why I offered some advice fwiw earlier.
I also believe that your life is a busy one - you didn't delay repairs
out of laziness.
Outside of that, I don't have any experience with STS fixing panels...
I've heard they're not cheap.
Seeing that no gear lasts forever, and you apparently depend on it, you
really do need a qualified tech, be willing to be without the gear for a
while, and be willing to pay.
Or am I overstaing the obvious?
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>Hi John
>
>the nature of the faults is partly to blame for me "stalling" on getting
>the panel looked at. The other factor is my work schedule.
>
>The faults are maddeningly intermittent. I would be all set to ship the panel
>to Rex and then the problems would disappear. It was only when the ADSR and
>UAP on the same panel began erratic that the situation became critical.
>
>
>

Re: Thanks, Rx

2004-03-28 by Chris Whitten

> Seeing that no gear lasts forever, and you apparently depend on it, you
> really do need a qualified tech, be willing to be without the gear for a
> while, and be willing to pay.
> Or am I overstaing the obvious?
Nope.
Bare in mind this was a relatively new panel.
Maybe a year or two old.
All I would say (not speaking on Kirk's behalf) was I thought you unfairly
implied Kirk had pestered Rex, that's why Rex 'cut him off'.
FWIW, I think the current price of new panels demands a high build quality
and a friendly and efficient after sales service.
None of us are asking to get repairs done for free.
I believe Kirk was surprised that a demand for xxx amount of dollars was
made in advance of anybody knowing what the fault was. That's unusual I
suspect. Speaking personally, I was surprised that when Kirk questioned the
up front payment he was told to take his business elsewhere.
Maybe I'm reading this wrong......
CW

Re: Thanks, Rx

2004-03-28 by cuari7

KD asks:
> When you returned your panel did Rex ask you for an upfront
> payment to cover the repair?
>


Nope. It was a brand-new panel. Paid only to ship it back to them.
What I liked most about the incident is that, although the defect
was not seen by them, they still listened to my concerns and went
ahead with the repair anyway.

Re: Thanks, Rx

2004-03-28 by kirkdegiorgio

> Nope. It was a brand-new panel. Paid only to ship it back to them.
> What I liked most about the incident is that, although the defect
> was not seen by them, they still listened to my concerns and went
> ahead with the repair anyway.

that's exactly the kind of service I was expecting... obviously
I somehow managed to piss Rex off by stalling on shipping it
due the intermittent nature of the fault and my work schedule.

At least that seems clear to me now.

Thanks to everyone for the many private emails of support and advice
regarding the problem... special mention to Paul Schreiber who offered
some tech advice and also gently reminded me that my comment 'every
synth I've ever owned has gone wrong' did not apply to my MOTM system
LOL... (FWIW Paul offers a back to base $5 repair on ANY faulty module and has
a workforce of 1).

I'll be mailing the panel to a tech shortly - for those interested in what the
faults turn out to be, I'll keep the group informed. It may turn out to be helpful.


KD

Re: Thanks, Rx

2004-03-28 by Chris Whitten

> for those interested in what the
> faults turn out to be, I'll keep the group informed. It may turn out to be
> helpful.
Yeah, that would be interesting.
Good luck.

Re: Thanks, Rx

2004-03-28 by cuari7

>>.. special mention to Paul Schreiber who offered
> some tech advice and also gently reminded me that my
comment 'every
> synth I've ever owned has gone wrong' did not apply to my MOTM
system
> LOL... (FWIW Paul offers a back to base $5 repair on ANY faulty
module and has
> a workforce of 1).<<

He, he. Paul, you sneaky devil, couldn't spare us the commercial,
huh? (I'm gonna seek Peake on ya'! ;-P)
But joke aside, I must recognize that Paul does provide excellent
support AND a fantastic product (the cleanest one by far, and some
of the best-sounding filters around). The problem (at least for me)
with MOTM is its bulk. Takes up twice the space of an equally-dense
Serge. It is my goal to eventually have a small-to-mid size MOTM
system to complement my Serge, but not 'till I buy a new house.
I also wish Paul sold his modules with optional banana jacks.....

Re: Thanks, Rx

2004-03-28 by kirkdegiorgio

Hehe - yeah I know it was a joke but Paul mailed that privately to me
so I was advertising on his behalf ;-)

I love my MOTM - my only complaint is the build time... but Paul
is always upfront about this so it just comes down to a straight
'can I wait that long?' choice... and so long as that is clear there
really is no problem.

The 440 filters are IMO the best (for my type of sound anyway)
out there.. I route my Serge patches to the 440's and then back into
the Serge for final shaping, etc. Banana option would make this
easier for me too I guess... the adapter module looks damn ugly!

KD
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> He, he. Paul, you sneaky devil, couldn't spare us the commercial,
> huh? (I'm gonna seek Peake on ya'! ;-P)
> But joke aside, I must recognize that Paul does provide excellent
> support AND a fantastic product (the cleanest one by far, and some
> of the best-sounding filters around). The problem (at least for me)
> with MOTM is its bulk. Takes up twice the space of an equally-dense
> Serge. It is my goal to eventually have a small-to-mid size MOTM
> system to complement my Serge, but not 'till I buy a new house.
> I also wish Paul sold his modules with optional banana jacks.....

Re: Thanks, Rx

2004-03-28 by Peter Grenader

Believe it or not, the shielding that the non-banana format provides is
worth the hassle of mults. Serge gets around this somewhat by a
comparatively low signal level. Problem is, you've got to run it hot to
compensate for that. Problem is then - like anything else you run hot -
you start to get system noise.

The most interesting mutation of this was the Steiner-Parker modular system.
It used 1/8 inch jacks, but shields were floating (he might as well have
used banana's). There are no grounds connected to any of the jacks, the
cables braided housings served as a faraday shield only.






cuari7 wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>>> .. special mention to Paul Schreiber who offered
>> some tech advice and also gently reminded me that my
> comment 'every
>> synth I've ever owned has gone wrong' did not apply to my MOTM
> system
>> LOL... (FWIW Paul offers a back to base $5 repair on ANY faulty
> module and has
>> a workforce of 1).<<
>
> He, he. Paul, you sneaky devil, couldn't spare us the commercial,
> huh? (I'm gonna seek Peake on ya'! ;-P)
> But joke aside, I must recognize that Paul does provide excellent
> support AND a fantastic product (the cleanest one by far, and some
> of the best-sounding filters around). The problem (at least for me)
> with MOTM is its bulk. Takes up twice the space of an equally-dense
> Serge. It is my goal to eventually have a small-to-mid size MOTM
> system to complement my Serge, but not 'till I buy a new house.
> I also wish Paul sold his modules with optional banana jacks.....
>
>
>
>
> Keep on Patchin'!
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>

Re: Thanks, Rx

2004-03-28 by Peter Grenader

Kirk -

Exactly what is on this panel (modules). I need to make sure I have all the
schematics.

Thanks,

Peter


kirkdegiorgio wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> Hehe - yeah I know it was a joke but Paul mailed that privately to me
> so I was advertising on his behalf ;-)
>
> I love my MOTM - my only complaint is the build time... but Paul
> is always upfront about this so it just comes down to a straight
> 'can I wait that long?' choice... and so long as that is clear there
> really is no problem.
>
> The 440 filters are IMO the best (for my type of sound anyway)
> out there.. I route my Serge patches to the 440's and then back into
> the Serge for final shaping, etc. Banana option would make this
> easier for me too I guess... the adapter module looks damn ugly!
>
> KD
>
>> He, he. Paul, you sneaky devil, couldn't spare us the commercial,
>> huh? (I'm gonna seek Peake on ya'! ;-P)
>> But joke aside, I must recognize that Paul does provide excellent
>> support AND a fantastic product (the cleanest one by far, and some
>> of the best-sounding filters around). The problem (at least for me)
>> with MOTM is its bulk. Takes up twice the space of an equally-dense
>> Serge. It is my goal to eventually have a small-to-mid size MOTM
>> system to complement my Serge, but not 'till I buy a new house.
>> I also wish Paul sold his modules with optional banana jacks.....
>
>
>
>
> Keep on Patchin'!
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>

Re: Thanks, Rx

2004-03-28 by John P

I read this before and don't quite get it. What do you mean exactly
when you say ' low signal level' and 'hot' I thought they meant the
same thing but not the way you use it here. The Serge signals start @
several volts p-p and that's what you see all the way thru. The only
time I've had significant noise was with a grounding problem. AFAIK I
don't get RFI either.


Peter Grenader wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>Believe it or not, the shielding that the non-banana format provides is
>worth the hassle of mults. Serge gets around this somewhat by a
>comparatively low signal level. Problem is, you've got to run it hot to
>compensate for that. Problem is then - like anything else you run hot -
>you start to get system noise.
>
>The most interesting mutation of this was the Steiner-Parker modular system.
>It used 1/8 inch jacks, but shields were floating (he might as well have
>used banana's). There are no grounds connected to any of the jacks, the
>cables braided housings served as a faraday shield only.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>cuari7 wrote:
>
>
>
>>>>.. special mention to Paul Schreiber who offered
>>>>
>>>>
>>>some tech advice and also gently reminded me that my
>>>
>>>
>>comment 'every
>>
>>
>>>synth I've ever owned has gone wrong' did not apply to my MOTM
>>>
>>>
>>system
>>
>>
>>>LOL... (FWIW Paul offers a back to base $5 repair on ANY faulty
>>>
>>>
>>module and has
>>
>>
>>>a workforce of 1).<<
>>>
>>>
>>He, he. Paul, you sneaky devil, couldn't spare us the commercial,
>>huh? (I'm gonna seek Peake on ya'! ;-P)
>>But joke aside, I must recognize that Paul does provide excellent
>>support AND a fantastic product (the cleanest one by far, and some
>>of the best-sounding filters around). The problem (at least for me)
>>with MOTM is its bulk. Takes up twice the space of an equally-dense
>>Serge. It is my goal to eventually have a small-to-mid size MOTM
>>system to complement my Serge, but not 'till I buy a new house.
>>I also wish Paul sold his modules with optional banana jacks.....
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>Keep on Patchin'!
>>
>>Yahoo! Groups Links
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>Keep on Patchin'!
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Re: Thanks, Rx

2004-03-28 by kirkdegiorgio

LEFT TO RIGHT:

CVI - NTO - PCO - NOI - MIX2 - ADSR - UAP

(MIX2 being Dual Audio Mixer)

KD
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> Kirk -
>
> Exactly what is on this panel (modules). I need to make sure I have
all the
> schematics.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Peter
>
>
> kirkdegiorgio wrote:
>
> > Hehe - yeah I know it was a joke but Paul mailed that privately
to me
> > so I was advertising on his behalf ;-)
> >
> > I love my MOTM - my only complaint is the build time... but Paul
> > is always upfront about this so it just comes down to a straight
> > 'can I wait that long?' choice... and so long as that is clear
there
> > really is no problem.
> >
> > The 440 filters are IMO the best (for my type of sound anyway)
> > out there.. I route my Serge patches to the 440's and then back
into
> > the Serge for final shaping, etc. Banana option would make this
> > easier for me too I guess... the adapter module looks damn ugly!
> >
> > KD
> >
> >> He, he. Paul, you sneaky devil, couldn't spare us the commercial,
> >> huh? (I'm gonna seek Peake on ya'! ;-P)
> >> But joke aside, I must recognize that Paul does provide excellent
> >> support AND a fantastic product (the cleanest one by far, and
some
> >> of the best-sounding filters around). The problem (at least for
me)
> >> with MOTM is its bulk. Takes up twice the space of an equally-
dense
> >> Serge. It is my goal to eventually have a small-to-mid size MOTM
> >> system to complement my Serge, but not 'till I buy a new house.
> >> I also wish Paul sold his modules with optional banana jacks.....
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Keep on Patchin'!
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >

Re: Thanks, Rx

2004-03-28 by Peter Grenader

What I meant was the Serge's I've either owned or have recently put on a
scope have a relatively low signal level (amplitude) of about 2.25 volts
(5.5 volts RMS) - right about line level. Now - please remember all of
these were over 20 years old and possibly this has changed since. Compare
this to other (newer) modulars (Doepfer, MOTM, etc etc) , and the Serge's
are about half the amplitude, and in some cases, less than half than this
'new breed' which run between 5 to 8 volts (10-16 p to p).

So, to get a healthy record level you've got to run them hot - you have to
turn the volume up high(er than you would than with these other systems).
And like any audio device, the higher the signal level, the more susceptible
you are to system noise.

Now, an interesting tidbit that I've noticed - when I had the Serge's here
and also with the non shielded Steiner - if I'm using the system and just so
happen to turn my stove on (my kitchen is adjacent to my studio), I will
actually hear the electronic spark ignition through my speakers coming form
the outputs of the synth (unplug it, the ignition goes away)! This doesn't
happen with the other equipment that uses shielded cabling. Is this due to
a non shielded architecture? - not sure, but probably. Is this particular
anomaly a reason for concern? Absolutely not - unless of course you come up
with a sonic brainstorm when you just so happen to be frying an egg or
something.





John P wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> I read this before and don't quite get it. What do you mean exactly
> when you say ' low signal level' and 'hot' I thought they meant the
> same thing but not the way you use it here. The Serge signals start @
> several volts p-p and that's what you see all the way thru. The only
> time I've had significant noise was with a grounding problem. AFAIK I
> don't get RFI either.
>
>
> Peter Grenader wrote:
>
>> Believe it or not, the shielding that the non-banana format provides is
>> worth the hassle of mults. Serge gets around this somewhat by a
>> comparatively low signal level. Problem is, you've got to run it hot to
>> compensate for that. Problem is then - like anything else you run hot -
>> you start to get system noise.
>>
>> The most interesting mutation of this was the Steiner-Parker modular system.
>> It used 1/8 inch jacks, but shields were floating (he might as well have
>> used banana's). There are no grounds connected to any of the jacks, the
>> cables braided housings served as a faraday shield only.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> cuari7 wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>>> .. special mention to Paul Schreiber who offered
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> some tech advice and also gently reminded me that my
>>>>
>>>>
>>> comment 'every
>>>
>>>
>>>> synth I've ever owned has gone wrong' did not apply to my MOTM
>>>>
>>>>
>>> system
>>>
>>>
>>>> LOL... (FWIW Paul offers a back to base $5 repair on ANY faulty
>>>>
>>>>
>>> module and has
>>>
>>>
>>>> a workforce of 1).<<
>>>>
>>>>
>>> He, he. Paul, you sneaky devil, couldn't spare us the commercial,
>>> huh? (I'm gonna seek Peake on ya'! ;-P)
>>> But joke aside, I must recognize that Paul does provide excellent
>>> support AND a fantastic product (the cleanest one by far, and some
>>> of the best-sounding filters around). The problem (at least for me)
>>> with MOTM is its bulk. Takes up twice the space of an equally-dense
>>> Serge. It is my goal to eventually have a small-to-mid size MOTM
>>> system to complement my Serge, but not 'till I buy a new house.
>>> I also wish Paul sold his modules with optional banana jacks.....
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Keep on Patchin'!
>>>
>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Keep on Patchin'!
>>
>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
> Keep on Patchin'!
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>

Planner is back!

2004-03-29 by James R. Coplin

After a long absence, the Serge planner is back up!

The version currently on the server is the old one but I'm actively in the
code for the new version currently. I'm not promising any dates but I am
back to working on it. So, if you want any new features, you better ask now
because I seriously doubt that after this update I will be adding anything
new besides to keep it running. I believe I have complete graphics now for
all the modules so that will be making an appearance. Later.

James R. Coplin
***************
If anyone asks of my whereabouts,
simply tell them i've gone out the window
for a spot of tea and am not
expected back any time soon.
***************

Move to quarantaine

This moves the raw source file on disk only. The archive index is not changed automatically, so you still need to run a manual refresh afterward.