Digital BW, The Print

Wells River is NOT the same as william turner. It is very thin,
sandpaper like, very gritty, and flakes off like crazy. VERY deep
blacks, though.

Royal Jazz, Wells River, and Luminos Woven Fiber are the same paper.

If you try it, brush it down really good before printing on it.

Jerry



"Michael A. Schwarz" wrote:

> 
> A chart I picked up along the way somewhere claims that Hahnemule William
> Turner is rebranded and the same paper as ConeTech Wells River, Media
> Street Royal Jazz, and Luminos Woven. Can anyone confirm or dismiss this
> claim?
> 
> Michael A. Schwarz
> Corporate, Editorial and Documentary Photojournalism
> www.michaelschwarz.com
> ms@...
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
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Michael,

If you check the Files section of the group homepage you will find a cross
reference of many of the names H. papers are sold under. There is also a
large paper database there too if you have access to Filemaker.

Martin

----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael A. Schwarz" <ms@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2002 7:46 AM
Subject: [Digital BW] Hahnemule William Turner


> A chart I picked up along the way somewhere claims that Hahnemule William
> Turner is rebranded and the same paper as ConeTech Wells River, Media
> Street Royal Jazz, and Luminos Woven. Can anyone confirm or dismiss this
> claim?
>
> Michael A. Schwarz
> Corporate, Editorial and Documentary Photojournalism
> www.michaelschwarz.com
> ms@...
>
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.

>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Jerry,

We've gone over this before ;)  William Turner comes in two weights - 190
and 310... and ConeTech even admit to Wells River being WT 190 (to my
recollection anyhow!) Which is not to say that there haven't been some
surface tesxture problems with the paper in the past. Also, mould-made
papers do have surface texture changes over time as the moulds wear down...
this is normal.

I think it was about this time last year that several people raised issue
with Cone Wells River paper - I haven't heard any recently (apart from your
comments which I think are based on your 'historic' experience rather than
recent???)

Best regards,
nij

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jerry Olson [mailto:jerryolson@...]
> Sent: 10 April 2002 20:58
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Hahnemule William Turner
>
>
> Wells River is NOT the same as william turner. It is very thin,
> sandpaper like, very gritty, and flakes off like crazy. VERY deep
> blacks, though.
>
> Royal Jazz, Wells River, and Luminos Woven Fiber are the same paper.
>
> If you try it, brush it down really good before printing on it.
>
> Jerry

My bad!!!!

> Royal Jazz, Wells River, and Luminos Woven Fiber are the same paper.
> 
These are the ones that have no OB's...!  I tested Wells River.  What is
Hahnemuhle's name for these papers if it isn't William Turner?

Robert




> 
> "Michael A. Schwarz" wrote:
>> 
>> A chart I picked up along the way somewhere claims that Hahnemule William
>> Turner is rebranded and the same paper as ConeTech Wells River, Media
>> Street Royal Jazz, and Luminos Woven. Can anyone confirm or dismiss this
>> claim?
>> 
>> Michael A. Schwarz
>> Corporate, Editorial and Documentary Photojournalism
>> www.michaelschwarz.com
>> ms@...
>> 
>> 
>> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
>> other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>> 
>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>> 
>> Please follow these basic guidelines:
>> - Include your full name with your message.
>> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
>> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
>> them short.
>> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
>> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
>> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
>> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
>> resources on the homepage.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
> 

----------------------
Robert Morrison
rmorrison@...

310-397-2704

4131 Bledsoe Ave.
Los Angeles, CA 90066

Wells River IS William Turner. Wells river was the IJM name for the light
weigth WT.

Julian
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert G. Morrison" <rmorrison@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2002 12:15 AM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Hahnemule William Turner


> My bad!!!!
>
> > Royal Jazz, Wells River, and Luminos Woven Fiber are the same paper.
> >
> These are the ones that have no OB's...!  I tested Wells River.  What is
> Hahnemuhle's name for these papers if it isn't William Turner?
>
> Robert
>
>
>
>
> >
> > "Michael A. Schwarz" wrote:
> >>
> >> A chart I picked up along the way somewhere claims that Hahnemule
William
> >> Turner is rebranded and the same paper as ConeTech Wells River, Media
> >> Street Royal Jazz, and Luminos Woven. Can anyone confirm or dismiss
this
> >> claim?
> >>
> >> Michael A. Schwarz
> >> Corporate, Editorial and Documentary Photojournalism
> >> www.michaelschwarz.com
> >> ms@...
> >>
> >>
> >> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls
and
> >> other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> >>
> >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >>
> >> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> >> - Include your full name with your message.
> >> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> >> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to
keep
> >> them short.
> >> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject
header.
> >> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
"flames."
> >> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> >> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the
various
> >> resources on the homepage.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other
> > resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > - Include your full name with your message.
> > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to
keep
> > them short.
> > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject
header.
> > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
"flames."
> > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> > resources on the homepage.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
>
> ----------------------
> Robert Morrison
> rmorrison@...
>
> 310-397-2704
>
> 4131 Bledsoe Ave.
> Los Angeles, CA 90066
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.

>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Jerry there are two weights of William Turner, 190 and 300. Wells River is
the thin light weight - 190.
Julian
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jerry Olson" <jerryolson@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2002 9:58 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Hahnemule William Turner


> Wells River is NOT the same as william turner. It is very thin,
> sandpaper like, very gritty, and flakes off like crazy. VERY deep
> blacks, though.
>
> Royal Jazz, Wells River, and Luminos Woven Fiber are the same paper.
>
> If you try it, brush it down really good before printing on it.
>
> Jerry
>
>
>
> "Michael A. Schwarz" wrote:
> >
> > A chart I picked up along the way somewhere claims that Hahnemule
William
> > Turner is rebranded and the same paper as ConeTech Wells River, Media
> > Street Royal Jazz, and Luminos Woven. Can anyone confirm or dismiss this
> > claim?
> >
> > Michael A. Schwarz
> > Corporate, Editorial and Documentary Photojournalism
> > www.michaelschwarz.com
> > ms@...
> >
> >
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > - Include your full name with your message.
> > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to
keep them short.
> > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject
header.
> > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
"flames."
> > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.

>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Some people say that Wells River is the thinner version of William Turner.
Side by side, its obvious the surface is different. The wells river is
like fine sandpaper, and the William Turner is not. Royal Plush, William
Turner, Orwell,
Frankfurt, German Etching, are all very similar papers, and quite beautiful.

There have been a few on this list who have made charts that tell what
hahnemuhle papers are what, when rebranded. Anyone have an update on this?

Royal Plush is a gorgeous paper, but expensive, of course! I wouldn't
let optical brightners bother me. Even photo papers have them!

Jerry


Jerry

> > Royal Jazz, Wells River, and Luminos Woven Fiber are the same paper.
> >
> These are the ones that have no OB's...!  I tested Wells River.  What is
> Hahnemuhle's name for these papers if it isn't William Turner?

I don't believe it. I've had both side by side, and they are VERY
different surfaces.

Jerry


Julian Thomas wrote:

> 
> Wells River IS William Turner. Wells river was the IJM name for the light
> weigth WT.
> 
> Julian
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Robert G. Morrison" <rmorrison@...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2002 12:15 AM
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Hahnemule William Turner
> 
> > My bad!!!!
> >
> > > Royal Jazz, Wells River, and Luminos Woven Fiber are the same paper.
> > >
> > These are the ones that have no OB's...!  I tested Wells River.  What is
> > Hahnemuhle's name for these papers if it isn't William Turner?
> >
> > Robert
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > > "Michael A. Schwarz" wrote:
> > >>
> > >> A chart I picked up along the way somewhere claims that Hahnemule
> William
> > >> Turner is rebranded and the same paper as ConeTech Wells River, Media
> > >> Street Royal Jazz, and Luminos Woven. Can anyone confirm or dismiss
> this
> > >> claim?
> > >>
> > >> Michael A. Schwarz
> > >> Corporate, Editorial and Documentary Photojournalism
> > >> www.michaelschwarz.com
> > >> ms@...
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls
> and
> > >> other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> > >>
> > >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> > >>
> > >> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > >> - Include your full name with your message.
> > >> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> > >> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to
> keep
> > >> them short.
> > >> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject
> header.
> > >> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
> "flames."
> > >> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> > >> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the
> various
> > >> resources on the homepage.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > >
> > > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
> other
> > > resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> > >
> > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> > >
> > > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > > - Include your full name with your message.
> > > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> > > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to
> keep
> > > them short.
> > > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject
> header.
> > > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
> "flames."
> > > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> > > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> > > resources on the homepage.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > >
> >
> > ----------------------
> > Robert Morrison
> > rmorrison@...
> >
> > 310-397-2704
> >
> > 4131 Bledsoe Ave.
> > Los Angeles, CA 90066
> >
> >
> >
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
> other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > - Include your full name with your message.
> > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> resources on the homepage.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

BUT the SURFACES are NOT the same!!!

Jerry

Julian Thomas wrote:

> 
> Jerry there are two weights of William Turner, 190 and 300. Wells River is
> the thin light weight - 190.
> Julian
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jerry Olson" <jerryolson@...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2002 9:58 PM
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Hahnemule William Turner
> 
> > Wells River is NOT the same as william turner. It is very thin,
> > sandpaper like, very gritty, and flakes off like crazy. VERY deep
> > blacks, though.
> >
> > Royal Jazz, Wells River, and Luminos Woven Fiber are the same paper.
> >
> > If you try it, brush it down really good before printing on it.
> >
> > Jerry
> >
> >
> >
> > "Michael A. Schwarz" wrote:
> > >
> > > A chart I picked up along the way somewhere claims that Hahnemule
> William
> > > Turner is rebranded and the same paper as ConeTech Wells River, Media
> > > Street Royal Jazz, and Luminos Woven. Can anyone confirm or dismiss this
> > > claim?
> > >
> > > Michael A. Schwarz
> > > Corporate, Editorial and Documentary Photojournalism
> > > www.michaelschwarz.com
> > > ms@...
> > >
> > >
> > > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
> other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> > >
> > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> > >
> > > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > > - Include your full name with your message.
> > > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> > > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to
> keep them short.
> > > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject
> header.
> > > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
> "flames."
> > > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> > > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> resources on the homepage.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
> other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > - Include your full name with your message.
> > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> resources on the homepage.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Nij,

William Turner and Wells River are the same. In fact, if you look at William
Turner 300 and William Turner 190, the surfaces are not the same either. I
think this is where people including our collegue Jerry are becoming
confused.

So, let's put this issue to rest. Wells River and William Turner are the
Same Paper. Orwell and German Etching are the same paper as well.

Mike


----- Original Message -----
From: "Nij aoth44" <nigel@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2002 6:13 PM
Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Hahnemule William Turner


> Jerry,
>
> We've gone over this before ;)  William Turner comes in two weights - 190
> and 310... and ConeTech even admit to Wells River being WT 190 (to my
> recollection anyhow!) Which is not to say that there haven't been some
> surface tesxture problems with the paper in the past. Also, mould-made
> papers do have surface texture changes over time as the moulds wear
down...
> this is normal.
>
> I think it was about this time last year that several people raised issue
> with Cone Wells River paper - I haven't heard any recently (apart from
your
> comments which I think are based on your 'historic' experience rather than
> recent???)
>
> Best regards,
> nij
>
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Jerry Olson [mailto:jerryolson@...]
> > Sent: 10 April 2002 20:58
> > To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Hahnemule William Turner
> >
> >
> > Wells River is NOT the same as william turner. It is very thin,
> > sandpaper like, very gritty, and flakes off like crazy. VERY deep
> > blacks, though.
> >
> > Royal Jazz, Wells River, and Luminos Woven Fiber are the same paper.
> >
> > If you try it, brush it down really good before printing on it.
> >
> > Jerry
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.

>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

My daily rant...this is why I won't use Hahnemuhle papers...you never are
sure what you are getting!


Robert


On 4/10/02 4:24 PM, "Jerry Olson" <jerryolson@...> wrote:

> I don't believe it. I've had both side by side, and they are VERY
> different surfaces.
> 
> Jerry
> 
> 
> Julian Thomas wrote:
>> 
>> Wells River IS William Turner. Wells river was the IJM name for the light
>> weigth WT.
>> 
>> Julian
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Robert G. Morrison" <rmorrison@...>
>> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
>> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2002 12:15 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Hahnemule William Turner
>> 
>>> My bad!!!!
>>> 
>>>> Royal Jazz, Wells River, and Luminos Woven Fiber are the same paper.
>>>> 
>>> These are the ones that have no OB's...!  I tested Wells River.  What is
>>> Hahnemuhle's name for these papers if it isn't William Turner?
>>> 
>>> Robert
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> "Michael A. Schwarz" wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> A chart I picked up along the way somewhere claims that Hahnemule
>> William
>>>>> Turner is rebranded and the same paper as ConeTech Wells River, Media
>>>>> Street Royal Jazz, and Luminos Woven. Can anyone confirm or dismiss
>> this
>>>>> claim?
>>>>> 
>>>>> Michael A. Schwarz
>>>>> Corporate, Editorial and Documentary Photojournalism
>>>>> www.michaelschwarz.com
>>>>> ms@...
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls
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>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
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>>> 
>>> ----------------------
>>> Robert Morrison
>>> rmorrison@...
>>> 
>>> 310-397-2704
>>> 
>>> 4131 Bledsoe Ave.
>>> Los Angeles, CA 90066
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
>> other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
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>> 
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> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
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> 
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> 

----------------------
Robert Morrison
rmorrison@...

310-397-2704

4131 Bledsoe Ave.
Los Angeles, CA 90066

Does anyone have a sample of the 190 and 300 William Turner that they could
send me...I'd really like to test these to make sure that they perform the
same as the Wells River sample that I have.  Does the 300 William Turner
have the same gritty surface that Wells River does?  Does Media street sell
the 300g William Turner...and what is it called?

Robert


On 4/10/02 3:33 PM, "Julian Thomas" <julianthomas@...> wrote:

> Jerry there are two weights of William Turner, 190 and 300. Wells River is
> the thin light weight - 190.
> Julian
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jerry Olson" <jerryolson@...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2002 9:58 PM
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Hahnemule William Turner
> 
> 
>> Wells River is NOT the same as william turner. It is very thin,
>> sandpaper like, very gritty, and flakes off like crazy. VERY deep
>> blacks, though.
>> 
>> Royal Jazz, Wells River, and Luminos Woven Fiber are the same paper.
>> 
>> If you try it, brush it down really good before printing on it.
>> 
>> Jerry
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> "Michael A. Schwarz" wrote:
>>> 
>>> A chart I picked up along the way somewhere claims that Hahnemule
> William
>>> Turner is rebranded and the same paper as ConeTech Wells River, Media
>>> Street Royal Jazz, and Luminos Woven. Can anyone confirm or dismiss this
>>> claim?
>>> 
>>> Michael A. Schwarz
>>> Corporate, Editorial and Documentary Photojournalism
>>> www.michaelschwarz.com
>>> ms@...
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
> other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>>> 
>>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>>> 
>>> Please follow these basic guidelines:
>>> - Include your full name with your message.
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>>> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to
> keep them short.
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> header.
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> "flames."
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> resources on the homepage.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
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>> 
>> 
>> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
> other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
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>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>> 
>> Please follow these basic guidelines:
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>> 
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
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> 
> 

----------------------
Robert Morrison
rmorrison@...

310-397-2704

4131 Bledsoe Ave.
Los Angeles, CA 90066

Robert,

No, the William Turner 300 has a less gritty surface and does not have the
flaking problems that the 190 had. I say "had, because Hahnemuhle claims
they fixed the problem. Cone may still have an old supply, but I would think
by now he would have sold it all.

I sent you the Epson Papers today, Tomorrow I will send William Turner 300.

Mike


----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert G. Morrison" <rmorrison@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2002 9:33 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Hahnemule William Turner


> Does anyone have a sample of the 190 and 300 William Turner that they
could
> send me...I'd really like to test these to make sure that they perform the
> same as the Wells River sample that I have.  Does the 300 William Turner
> have the same gritty surface that Wells River does?  Does Media street
sell
> the 300g William Turner...and what is it called?
>
> Robert
>
>
> On 4/10/02 3:33 PM, "Julian Thomas" <julianthomas@...> wrote:
>
> > Jerry there are two weights of William Turner, 190 and 300. Wells River
is
> > the thin light weight - 190.
> > Julian
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Jerry Olson" <jerryolson@...>
> > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2002 9:58 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Hahnemule William Turner
> >
> >
> >> Wells River is NOT the same as william turner. It is very thin,
> >> sandpaper like, very gritty, and flakes off like crazy. VERY deep
> >> blacks, though.
> >>
> >> Royal Jazz, Wells River, and Luminos Woven Fiber are the same paper.
> >>
> >> If you try it, brush it down really good before printing on it.
> >>
> >> Jerry
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> "Michael A. Schwarz" wrote:
> >>>
> >>> A chart I picked up along the way somewhere claims that Hahnemule
> > William
> >>> Turner is rebranded and the same paper as ConeTech Wells River, Media
> >>> Street Royal Jazz, and Luminos Woven. Can anyone confirm or dismiss
this
> >>> claim?
> >>>
> >>> Michael A. Schwarz
> >>> Corporate, Editorial and Documentary Photojournalism
> >>> www.michaelschwarz.com
> >>> ms@...
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls
and
> > other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> >>>
> >>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >>>
> >>> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> >>> - Include your full name with your message.
> >>> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> >>> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to
> > keep them short.
> >>> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject
> > header.
> >>> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
> > "flames."
> >>> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> >>> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the
various
> > resources on the homepage.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >>
> >>
> >> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls
and
> > other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> >>
> >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >>
> >> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> >> - Include your full name with your message.
> >> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> >> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to
keep
> > them short.
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header.
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"flames."
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various
> > resources on the homepage.
> >>
> >>
> >>
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> >> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other
> > resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
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keep
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header.
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"flames."
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http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
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> >
>
> ----------------------
> Robert Morrison
> rmorrison@...
>
> 310-397-2704
>
> 4131 Bledsoe Ave.
> Los Angeles, CA 90066
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
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them short.
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> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.

>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Robert,

You will never know what you are missing. ;-)
And, it will leave more for the rest of us......

Mike

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "Robert G. Morrison" <rmorrison@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2002 9:33 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Hahnemule William Turner


> My daily rant...this is why I won't use Hahnemuhle papers...you never are
> sure what you are getting!
> 
> 
> Robert

I know, this sounded really contradictory, but although the surfaces are
different, they are the same paper. Go figure....

Mike
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Kravit" <michael.kravit@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2002 9:32 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Hahnemule William Turner


> Nij,
>
> William Turner and Wells River are the same. In fact, if you look at
William

> Turner 300 and William Turner 190, the surfaces are not the same either. I
> think this is where people including our collegue Jerry are becoming
> confused.
>
> So, let's put this issue to rest. Wells River and William Turner are the
> Same Paper. Orwell and German Etching are the same paper as well.
>
> Mike

Right, but the surfaces were far too different to be attributable to
"Moulds". 
There was something else afoot. The texture and feel of the two papers
were far apart. Could be mislabeled? Dunno, haven't tried it lately. 

Are you now saying that Wells river (william turner lite) is no longer
sandy, and has no flaking troubles?

Jerry


Nij aoth44 wrote:

> 
> Jerry,
> 
> We've gone over this before ;)  William Turner comes in two weights - 190
> and 310... and ConeTech even admit to Wells River being WT 190 (to my
> recollection anyhow!) Which is not to say that there haven't been some
> surface tesxture problems with the paper in the past. Also, mould-made
> papers do have surface texture changes over time as the moulds wear down...
> this is normal.
> 
> I think it was about this time last year that several people raised issue
> with Cone Wells River paper - I haven't heard any recently (apart from your
> comments which I think are based on your 'historic' experience rather than
> recent???)
> 
> Best regards,
> nij
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Jerry Olson [mailto:jerryolson@...]
> > Sent: 10 April 2002 20:58
> > To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Hahnemule William Turner
> >
> >
> > Wells River is NOT the same as william turner. It is very thin,
> > sandpaper like, very gritty, and flakes off like crazy. VERY deep
> > blacks, though.
> >
> > Royal Jazz, Wells River, and Luminos Woven Fiber are the same paper.
> >
> > If you try it, brush it down really good before printing on it.
> >
> > Jerry
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
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> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Mike, 

If they are the same, why is Wells River Paper very sandy, and flakes
badly, while William Turner is not sandy and does not flake? I'll admit
they did print the same, but they sure don't look or feel the same!

Jerry

It may be that Cone had a bad batch of Wells River. He buys in huge
quantities, so it could be quite a while before he sold it all.

Glad to hear they've fixed the problem!

Jerry

Michael Kravit wrote:

> 
> Robert,
> 
> No, the William Turner 300 has a less gritty surface and does not have the
> flaking problems that the 190 had. I say "had, because Hahnemuhle claims
> they fixed the problem. Cone may still have an old supply, but I would think
> by now he would have sold it all.
> 
> I sent you the Epson Papers today, Tomorrow I will send William Turner 300.
> 
> Mike
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Robert G. Morrison" <rmorrison@...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2002 9:33 PM
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Hahnemule William Turner
> 
> > Does anyone have a sample of the 190 and 300 William Turner that they
> could
> > send me...I'd really like to test these to make sure that they perform the
> > same as the Wells River sample that I have.  Does the 300 William Turner
> > have the same gritty surface that Wells River does?  Does Media street
> sell
> > the 300g William Turner...and what is it called?
> >
> > Robert
> >
> >
> > On 4/10/02 3:33 PM, "Julian Thomas" <julianthomas@...> wrote:
> >
> > > Jerry there are two weights of William Turner, 190 and 300. Wells River
> is
> > > the thin light weight - 190.
> > > Julian
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Jerry Olson" <jerryolson@...>
> > > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > > Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2002 9:58 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Hahnemule William Turner
> > >
> > >
> > >> Wells River is NOT the same as william turner. It is very thin,
> > >> sandpaper like, very gritty, and flakes off like crazy. VERY deep
> > >> blacks, though.
> > >>
> > >> Royal Jazz, Wells River, and Luminos Woven Fiber are the same paper.
> > >>
> > >> If you try it, brush it down really good before printing on it.
> > >>
> > >> Jerry
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> "Michael A. Schwarz" wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>> A chart I picked up along the way somewhere claims that Hahnemule
> > > William
> > >>> Turner is rebranded and the same paper as ConeTech Wells River, Media
> > >>> Street Royal Jazz, and Luminos Woven. Can anyone confirm or dismiss
> this
> > >>> claim?
> > >>>
> > >>> Michael A. Schwarz
> > >>> Corporate, Editorial and Documentary Photojournalism
> > >>> www.michaelschwarz.com
> > >>> ms@...
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls
> and
> > > other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> > >>>
> > >>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> > >>>
> > >>> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > >>> - Include your full name with your message.
> > >>> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> > >>> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to
> > > keep them short.
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> > >>> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
> > > "flames."
> > >>> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> > >>> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the
> various
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> > >>
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> > >> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls
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> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
> other
> > > resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> > >
> > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
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> > >
> >
> > ----------------------
> > Robert Morrison
> > rmorrison@...
> >
> > 310-397-2704
> >
> > 4131 Bledsoe Ave.
> > Los Angeles, CA 90066
> >
> >
> >
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
> other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
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> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
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> Please follow these basic guidelines:
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Hi Jerry,

Comparing recent samples of William Tunrer 190, 310 and and OLD sample of
ConeTech Wells River (from about this time last year), I would concur that
there are indeed three different textures and roughness in evidence. The
ConeTech was roughest, the WT190 next, and the WT 310 'smoothest'.

Aha - just found a recent sample of ConeTech Wells River... it is VERY
similar to the UK William Turner 190, perhaps slightly rougher, but nothing
I couldn't attribute to mould wearing. Also, the texture is very similar
also, and compared to the Wells River from Feb last year, is  quite
different. The newer Wells River 190 and the William Turner 190 also share a
very similar wire texture on the back... strangely the WT 310 is quite
different. The old Wells River did not just have a rough watercolour
texture, but it has just a hint of weave in the texture like Chelsea or
something.

By the way, I did have some flaking with the older Wells River, but it was
resolved when I started brushing the paper... I don't tend to use it much
though, on account of US paper sizes ;) Again, I haven't used the newer
stuff recently either, as I selected Photo Rag for my own personal use when
it came to doing 'real work' last Q4 last year.

Who knows? ;)

Hope this helps,
nij

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jerry Olson [mailto:jerryolson@...]
> Sent: 11 April 2002 03:00
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Hahnemule William Turner
>
>
> Right, but the surfaces were far too different to be attributable to
> "Moulds".
> There was something else afoot. The texture and feel of the two papers
> were far apart. Could be mislabeled? Dunno, haven't tried it lately.
>
> Are you now saying that Wells river (william turner lite) is no longer
> sandy, and has no flaking troubles?
>
> Jerry
>
>
> Nij aoth44 wrote:
> >
> > Jerry,
> >
> > We've gone over this before ;)  William Turner comes in two
> weights - 190
> > and 310... and ConeTech even admit to Wells River being WT 190 (to my
> > recollection anyhow!) Which is not to say that there haven't been some
> > surface tesxture problems with the paper in the past. Also, mould-made
> > papers do have surface texture changes over time as the moulds
> wear down...
> > this is normal.
> >
> > I think it was about this time last year that several people
> raised issue
> > with Cone Wells River paper - I haven't heard any recently
> (apart from your
> > comments which I think are based on your 'historic' experience
> rather than
> > recent???)
> >
> > Best regards,
> > nij

I've used most of them...wells river, orwell, torchon, photorag...and
honestly...they give nice BW prints (inferior color prints, however) but in
my opinion not that much better than the competition.  They also have
problems...like flaking...OB's...and poor coating properties.  So I've
decided to go another way where I can deal with suppliers (Crane &
Brightcube) who are very forthright about their papers.

Robert

On 4/10/02 6:36 PM, "Michael Kravit" <michael.kravit@...>
wrote:

> Robert,
> 
> You will never know what you are missing. ;-)
> And, it will leave more for the rest of us......
> 
> Mike
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Robert G. Morrison" <rmorrison@...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2002 9:33 PM
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Hahnemule William Turner
> 
> 
>> My daily rant...this is why I won't use Hahnemuhle papers...you never are
>> sure what you are getting!
>> 
>> 
>> Robert
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
> 

----------------------
Robert Morrison
rmorrison@...

310-397-2704

4131 Bledsoe Ave.
Los Angeles, CA 90066

Jerry I've got 4 boxes of william turner and 3 of wr. each box has a
different coating. Some are realy rough like sandpaper, others have a
smoother finish. When I asked IJM about this, Jon explained that as the
felts change in the batch run, the texture changes. For this reason when he
finds a batch that he likes he buys a pallet load, just to be consistent.

Julian
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jerry Olson" <jerryolson@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2002 1:23 AM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Hahnemule William Turner


> Some people say that Wells River is the thinner version of William Turner.
> Side by side, its obvious the surface is different. The wells river is
> like fine sandpaper, and the William Turner is not. Royal Plush, William
> Turner, Orwell,
> Frankfurt, German Etching, are all very similar papers, and quite
beautiful.
>
> There have been a few on this list who have made charts that tell what
> hahnemuhle papers are what, when rebranded. Anyone have an update on this?
>
> Royal Plush is a gorgeous paper, but expensive, of course! I wouldn't
> let optical brightners bother me. Even photo papers have them!
>
> Jerry
>
>
> Jerry
>
>
> > > Royal Jazz, Wells River, and Luminos Woven Fiber are the same paper.
> > >
> > These are the ones that have no OB's...!  I tested Wells River.  What is
> > Hahnemuhle's name for these papers if it isn't William Turner?
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.

>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

In a message dated 4/10/02 9:50:54 PM, michael.kravit@... writes:

<< Robert,

No, the William Turner 300 has a less gritty surface and does not have the
flaking problems that the 190 had. I say "had, because Hahnemuhle claims
they fixed the problem. Cone may still have an old supply, but I would think
by now he would have sold it all.

I sent you the Epson Papers today, Tomorrow I will send William Turner 300.

Mike >>

Hi Mike:

Not to be a naysayer, but with a bit of effort, the William Turner butterfly 
print from the last exchange has that somewhat fragile flaking issue.  It is 
far superior to the thinner William Turner and even a bit better than the 
German Etching I've used in the past.

I'm curious how you store the photographs after printing.

Do you wipe it down in any way before printing because I'd like to start 
using it if I know I can minimize problems.

All the best!

-Andry Darlow

Photography, Digital Print Consulting and Custom Editions
Andrew Darlow Images International, NYC www.andydarlow.com
Author: Inkjet Tip of the Month Club (newsletter) 
To subscribe, send e-mail to: Inkjettips-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

I would like to try the Wm Turner 310.

I would like to buy from Mediastreet or other supplier as they are 
far less expensive than Digital Art Supplies. (Unless it is worth 
paying the extra money for "Hahnemuhle" branded paper?)

I have looked at the excel sheet for Hahnemuhle naming 
equivalents.

There is no equivalent listed for the 310 paper (the 190 is called 
Royal Jazz, I believe).

?? What do I order from Mediastreet (or other supplier) to get the 
equivalent of the 310 William Turner??

Thanks (I know this has gone 'round and 'round)

Jeff Korte







--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., shashinka@a... wrote:
> 
> In a message dated 4/10/02 9:50:54 PM, michael.kravit@w... 
writes:
> 
> << Robert,
> 
> No, the William Turner 300 has a less gritty surface and does 
not have the
> flaking problems that the 190 had. I say "had, because 
Hahnemuhle claims
> they fixed the problem. Cone may still have an old supply, but I 
would think
> by now he would have sold it all.
> 
> I sent you the Epson Papers today, Tomorrow I will send 
William Turner 300.
> 
> Mike >>
> 
> Hi Mike:
> 
> Not to be a naysayer, but with a bit of effort, the William Turner 
butterfly 
> print from the last exchange has that somewhat fragile flaking 
issue.  It is 
> far superior to the thinner William Turner and even a bit better 
than the 
> German Etching I've used in the past.
> 
> I'm curious how you store the photographs after printing.
> 
> Do you wipe it down in any way before printing because I'd like 
to start 
> using it if I know I can minimize problems.
> 
> All the best!
> 
> -Andry Darlow
> 
> Photography, Digital Print Consulting and Custom Editions
> Andrew Darlow Images International, NYC 
www.andydarlow.com
> Author: Inkjet Tip of the Month Club (newsletter) 
> To subscribe, send e-mail to: Inkjettips-subscribe@y...

On 4/11/02 8:22 AM, "shashinka@..." <shashinka@...> wrote:

> Do you wipe it down in any way before printing because I'd like to start
> using it if I know I can minimize problems.

IMO you should thoroughly wipe down any coated inkjet paper with a drafting
brush before printing.  I imagine that Mike might have a drafting brush or
two lying about!  While the Hahnemuhle papers are the worst that I have seen
with respect to flaking, dust or loose particles can cause problems on other
papers as well.  I recently had a problem with Museo 365...but thoroughly
brushing before printing completely look care of the problem.

Robert

Thanks Nij,

I also love photo rag, and it is a bit less expensive at mediastreet
than from some other dealers. Legion photomatte is also a favorite, and
Eclipse, and I guess I'm through with epson papers. I just don't want
that watermark on the back. Still good for proofing though, and I have a
lot left, so will use it for that.

I wonder if I got a black and white profile for photomatte and eclipse,
if you could get deeper blacks? Can you even get a Black and white
profile? Right now, I'm using the VM inkset for black and white
printing, with the Generations Enhanced black in the black position, and
getting very good prints. If you get a perfect print on Epson's archival
matte, all you have to do to match it on the eclipse is reduce gamma in
a levels adjustment layer by 15 points.
This looks a little dark on the screen, but prints beautifully.

Jerry

Nij aoth44 wrote:

> 
> Hi Jerry,
> 
> Comparing recent samples of William Tunrer 190, 310 and and OLD sample of
> ConeTech Wells River (from about this time last year), I would concur that
> there are indeed three different textures and roughness in evidence. The
> ConeTech was roughest, the WT190 next, and the WT 310 'smoothest'.
> 
> Aha - just found a recent sample of ConeTech Wells River... it is VERY
> similar to the UK William Turner 190, perhaps slightly rougher, but nothing
> I couldn't attribute to mould wearing. Also, the texture is very similar
> also, and compared to the Wells River from Feb last year, is  quite
> different. The newer Wells River 190 and the William Turner 190 also share a
> very similar wire texture on the back... strangely the WT 310 is quite
> different. The old Wells River did not just have a rough watercolour
> texture, but it has just a hint of weave in the texture like Chelsea or
> something.
> 
> By the way, I did have some flaking with the older Wells River, but it was
> resolved when I started brushing the paper... I don't tend to use it much
> though, on account of US paper sizes ;) Again, I haven't used the newer
> stuff recently either, as I selected Photo Rag for my own personal use when
> it came to doing 'real work' last Q4 last year.
> 
> Who knows? ;)
> 
> Hope this helps,
> nij
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Jerry Olson [mailto:jerryolson@...]
> > Sent: 11 April 2002 03:00
> > To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Hahnemule William Turner
> >
> >
> > Right, but the surfaces were far too different to be attributable to
> > "Moulds".
> > There was something else afoot. The texture and feel of the two papers
> > were far apart. Could be mislabeled? Dunno, haven't tried it lately.
> >
> > Are you now saying that Wells river (william turner lite) is no longer
> > sandy, and has no flaking troubles?
> >
> > Jerry
> >
> >
> > Nij aoth44 wrote:
> > >
> > > Jerry,
> > >
> > > We've gone over this before ;)  William Turner comes in two
> > weights - 190
> > > and 310... and ConeTech even admit to Wells River being WT 190 (to my
> > > recollection anyhow!) Which is not to say that there haven't been some
> > > surface tesxture problems with the paper in the past. Also, mould-made
> > > papers do have surface texture changes over time as the moulds
> > wear down...
> > > this is normal.
> > >
> > > I think it was about this time last year that several people
> > raised issue
> > > with Cone Wells River paper - I haven't heard any recently
> > (apart from your
> > > comments which I think are based on your 'historic' experience
> > rather than
> > > recent???)
> > >
> > > Best regards,
> > > nij
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
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> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
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> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Hi Julian,

This doesn't say much for Hahnemuhle's quality control, does it? I can
envision situations
where if you couldn't duplicate a print on the same paper as the
original, the client would
be very upset!

Jerry


Julian Thomas wrote:

> 
> Jerry I've got 4 boxes of william turner and 3 of wr. each box has a
> different coating. Some are realy rough like sandpaper, others have a
> smoother finish. When I asked IJM about this, Jon explained that as the
> felts change in the batch run, the texture changes. For this reason when he
> finds a batch that he likes he buys a pallet load, just to be consistent.
>

Jerry I agree.I've stopped using WR/WT unless I sell the print framed. I've
been playing alot with wet prints a lot recently and inkjet is really
missing that deep black glow of a semi gloss paper. I'm going to try
coating. I think we need the option of a good glossy or matte finish
depending on the image. I've got some museo which Robert says gives a dmax
of 2.2 (I think!) and I'll start with that. if i can combine the deep
dmax/glow with the inkjet long greyscale range, I'll be REALLY happy.

Julian
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jerry Olson" <jerryolson@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2002 10:53 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Hahnemule William Turner


> Hi Julian,
>
> This doesn't say much for Hahnemuhle's quality control, does it? I can
> envision situations
> where if you couldn't duplicate a print on the same paper as the
> original, the client would
> be very upset!
>
> Jerry
>
>
> Julian Thomas wrote:
> >
> > Jerry I've got 4 boxes of william turner and 3 of wr. each box has a
> > different coating. Some are realy rough like sandpaper, others have a
> > smoother finish. When I asked IJM about this, Jon explained that as the
> > felts change in the batch run, the texture changes. For this reason when
he
> > finds a batch that he likes he buys a pallet load, just to be
consistent.
> >
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.

>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Inferior color prints?

Hmm, I don't do much fine art color, but all of the shops I know that do are
using Torchon in 35-3/4 x 47-3/4" sheets or H. Canvas.

I also like BrightCube.

Mike


----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Morrison" <rmorrison@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2002 12:45 AM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Hahnemule William Turner


> I've used most of them...wells river, orwell, torchon, photorag...and
> honestly...they give nice BW prints (inferior color prints, however) but
in
> my opinion not that much better than the competition.  They also have
> problems...like flaking...OB's...and poor coating properties.  So I've
> decided to go another way where I can deal with suppliers (Crane &
> Brightcube) who are very forthright about their papers.
>
> Robert
>
> On 4/10/02 6:36 PM, "Michael Kravit" <michael.kravit@...>
> wrote:
>
> > Robert,
> >
> > You will never know what you are missing. ;-)
> > And, it will leave more for the rest of us......
> >
> > Mike
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Robert G. Morrison" <rmorrison@...>
> > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2002 9:33 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Hahnemule William Turner
> >
> >
> >> My daily rant...this is why I won't use Hahnemuhle papers...you never
are
> >> sure what you are getting!
> >>
> >>
> >> Robert
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other
> > resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > - Include your full name with your message.
> > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to
keep
> > them short.
> > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject
header.
> > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
"flames."
> > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> > resources on the homepage.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
>
> ----------------------
> Robert Morrison
> rmorrison@...
>
> 310-397-2704
>
> 4131 Bledsoe Ave.
> Los Angeles, CA 90066
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.

>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Whoa,

I have been buying William Turner 300 for 2 years. I have never noticed a
difference in the texture. I guess once again it is The "Life according to
Jon" spin.

Mike


----- Original Message -----
From: "Julian Thomas" <julianthomas@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2002 4:38 AM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Hahnemule William Turner


> Jerry I've got 4 boxes of william turner and 3 of wr. each box has a
> different coating. Some are realy rough like sandpaper, others have a
> smoother finish. When I asked IJM about this, Jon explained that as the
> felts change in the batch run, the texture changes. For this reason when
he

> finds a batch that he likes he buys a pallet load, just to be consistent.
>
> Julian

Well I admit that I buy/bought mainly the 190 and I've seen huge differences
in texture. Some so coarse as to be unusable and some really nice. This was
all done through the piezo list...

Julian
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Kravit" <michael.kravit@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2002 11:19 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Hahnemule William Turner


> Whoa,
>
> I have been buying William Turner 300 for 2 years. I have never noticed a
> difference in the texture. I guess once again it is The "Life according to
> Jon" spin.
>
> Mike
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Julian Thomas" <julianthomas@...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2002 4:38 AM
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Hahnemule William Turner
>
>
> > Jerry I've got 4 boxes of william turner and 3 of wr. each box has a
> > different coating. Some are realy rough like sandpaper, others have a
> > smoother finish. When I asked IJM about this, Jon explained that as the
> > felts change in the batch run, the texture changes. For this reason when
> he
> > finds a batch that he likes he buys a pallet load, just to be
consistent.
> >
> > Julian
>
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.

>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Well, Museo and Eclipse blow away Hahnemuhle with both MIS color inks and
the Indelibles.  Blacks are .1 to .15 dmax better with the MIS double
density black.

> but all of the shops I know that do are
> using Torchon in 35-3/4 x 47-3/4" sheets or H. Canvas

Its the German mystique!

I can't believe anyone uses Torchon for anything...that is the weirdest
surface I've ever seen!  I haven't seen the canvas...but I know Brightcube's
canvas is fantastic with these inks and is a lot cheaper.

Robert




RobertOn 4/11/02 2:16 PM, "Michael Kravit" <michael.kravit@...>
wrote:

> Inferior color prints?
> 
> Hmm, I don't do much fine art color, but all of the shops I know that do are
> using Torchon in 35-3/4 x 47-3/4" sheets or H. Canvas.
> 
> I also like BrightCube.
> 
> Mike
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Robert Morrison" <rmorrison@...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2002 12:45 AM
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Hahnemule William Turner
> 
> 
>> I've used most of them...wells river, orwell, torchon, photorag...and
>> honestly...they give nice BW prints (inferior color prints, however) but
> in
>> my opinion not that much better than the competition.  They also have
>> problems...like flaking...OB's...and poor coating properties.  So I've
>> decided to go another way where I can deal with suppliers (Crane &
>> Brightcube) who are very forthright about their papers.
>> 
>> Robert
>> 
>> On 4/10/02 6:36 PM, "Michael Kravit" <michael.kravit@...>
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> Robert,
>>> 
>>> You will never know what you are missing. ;-)
>>> And, it will leave more for the rest of us......
>>> 
>>> Mike
>>> 
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Robert G. Morrison" <rmorrison@...>
>>> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2002 9:33 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Hahnemule William Turner
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> My daily rant...this is why I won't use Hahnemuhle papers...you never
> are
>>>> sure what you are getting!
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Robert
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
> other
>>> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>>> 
>>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>>> 
>>> Please follow these basic guidelines:
>>> - Include your full name with your message.
>>> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
>>> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to
> keep
>>> them short.
>>> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject
> header.
>>> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
> "flames."
>>> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
>>> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
>>> resources on the homepage.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
>> ----------------------
>> Robert Morrison
>> rmorrison@...
>> 
>> 310-397-2704
>> 
>> 4131 Bledsoe Ave.
>> Los Angeles, CA 90066
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
> other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>> 
>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>> 
>> Please follow these basic guidelines:
>> - Include your full name with your message.
>> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
>> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
>> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
>> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
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>> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> resources on the homepage.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
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>> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
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> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
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> 

----------------------
Robert Morrison
rmorrison@...

310-397-2704

4131 Bledsoe Ave.
Los Angeles, CA 90066

Julian,

Back to the wet darkroom, eh? Can't say I totally disagree, but a few weeks
when I said that the inkjet prints lacked that luninous glow I got severely
sun burned ;-).

I am seriously considering a wet darkroom for printing digital negatives
made on the 7000. I have seen Burkholders process and it is outstanding both
in Platinum and Silver.

Mike


----- Original Message -----
From: "Julian Thomas" <julianthomas@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2002 5:01 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Hahnemule William Turner


> Jerry I agree.I've stopped using WR/WT unless I sell the print framed.
I've

> been playing alot with wet prints a lot recently and inkjet is really
> missing that deep black glow of a semi gloss paper. I'm going to try
> coating. I think we need the option of a good glossy or matte finish
> depending on the image. I've got some museo which Robert says gives a dmax
> of 2.2 (I think!) and I'll start with that. if i can combine the deep
> dmax/glow with the inkjet long greyscale range, I'll be REALLY happy.
>
> Julian

Generations black is blacker than the double density black.

Jerry

Robert Morrison wrote:

> 
> Well, Museo and Eclipse blow away Hahnemuhle with both MIS color inks and
> the Indelibles.  Blacks are .1 to .15 dmax better with the MIS double
> density black.
> 
> > but all of the shops I know that do are
> > using Torchon in 35-3/4 x 47-3/4" sheets or H. Canvas
> 
> Its the German mystique!
> 
> I can't believe anyone uses Torchon for anything...that is the weirdest
> surface I've ever seen!  I haven't seen the canvas...but I know Brightcube's
> canvas is fantastic with these inks and is a lot cheaper.
> 
> Robert
> 
> RobertOn 4/11/02 2:16 PM, "Michael Kravit" <michael.kravit@...>
> wrote:
> 
> > Inferior color prints?
> >
> > Hmm, I don't do much fine art color, but all of the shops I know that do are
> > using Torchon in 35-3/4 x 47-3/4" sheets or H. Canvas.
> >
> > I also like BrightCube.
> >
> > Mike
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Robert Morrison" <rmorrison@...>
> > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2002 12:45 AM
> > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Hahnemule William Turner
> >
> >
> >> I've used most of them...wells river, orwell, torchon, photorag...and
> >> honestly...they give nice BW prints (inferior color prints, however) but
> > in
> >> my opinion not that much better than the competition.  They also have
> >> problems...like flaking...OB's...and poor coating properties.  So I've
> >> decided to go another way where I can deal with suppliers (Crane &
> >> Brightcube) who are very forthright about their papers.
> >>
> >> Robert
> >>
> >> On 4/10/02 6:36 PM, "Michael Kravit" <michael.kravit@...>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Robert,
> >>>
> >>> You will never know what you are missing. ;-)
> >>> And, it will leave more for the rest of us......
> >>>
> >>> Mike
> >>>
> >>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>> From: "Robert G. Morrison" <rmorrison@...>
> >>> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> >>> Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2002 9:33 PM
> >>> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Hahnemule William Turner
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> My daily rant...this is why I won't use Hahnemuhle papers...you never
> > are
> >>>> sure what you are getting!
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Robert
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
> > other
> >>> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> >>>
> >>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >>>
> >>> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> >>> - Include your full name with your message.
> >>> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> >>> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to
> > keep
> >>> them short.
> >>> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject
> > header.
> >>> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
> > "flames."
> >>> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> >>> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> >>> resources on the homepage.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >> ----------------------
> >> Robert Morrison
> >> rmorrison@...
> >>
> >> 310-397-2704
> >>
> >> 4131 Bledsoe Ave.
> >> Los Angeles, CA 90066
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
> > other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> >>
> >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >>
> >> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> >> - Include your full name with your message.
> >> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> >> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> > them short.
> >> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> >> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> >> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> >> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> > resources on the homepage.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
> > resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > - Include your full name with your message.
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> > them short.
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> > resources on the homepage.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> 
> ----------------------
> Robert Morrison
> rmorrison@...
> 
> 310-397-2704
> 
> 4131 Bledsoe Ave.
> Los Angeles, CA 90066
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
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> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Dead even on Eclipse and Museo, and the MIS is all pigment...the Gen 4 is
25% dye.  Gen4 is better on Hahnemuhle and EAM than Double density.

Robert

On 4/11/02 4:26 PM, "Jerry Olson" <jerryolson@...> wrote:

> Generations black is blacker than the double density black.
> 
> Jerry
> 
> Robert Morrison wrote:
>> 
>> Well, Museo and Eclipse blow away Hahnemuhle with both MIS color inks and
>> the Indelibles.  Blacks are .1 to .15 dmax better with the MIS double
>> density black.
>> 
>>> but all of the shops I know that do are
>>> using Torchon in 35-3/4 x 47-3/4" sheets or H. Canvas
>> 
>> Its the German mystique!
>> 
>> I can't believe anyone uses Torchon for anything...that is the weirdest
>> surface I've ever seen!  I haven't seen the canvas...but I know Brightcube's
>> canvas is fantastic with these inks and is a lot cheaper.
>> 
>> Robert
>> 
>> RobertOn 4/11/02 2:16 PM, "Michael Kravit" <michael.kravit@...>
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> Inferior color prints?
>>> 
>>> Hmm, I don't do much fine art color, but all of the shops I know that do are
>>> using Torchon in 35-3/4 x 47-3/4" sheets or H. Canvas.
>>> 
>>> I also like BrightCube.
>>> 
>>> Mike
>>> 
>>> 
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Robert Morrison" <rmorrison@...>
>>> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
>>> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2002 12:45 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Hahnemule William Turner
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> I've used most of them...wells river, orwell, torchon, photorag...and
>>>> honestly...they give nice BW prints (inferior color prints, however) but
>>> in
>>>> my opinion not that much better than the competition.  They also have
>>>> problems...like flaking...OB's...and poor coating properties.  So I've
>>>> decided to go another way where I can deal with suppliers (Crane &
>>>> Brightcube) who are very forthright about their papers.
>>>> 
>>>> Robert
>>>> 
>>>> On 4/10/02 6:36 PM, "Michael Kravit" <michael.kravit@...>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> Robert,
>>>>> 
>>>>> You will never know what you are missing. ;-)
>>>>> And, it will leave more for the rest of us......
>>>>> 
>>>>> Mike
>>>>> 
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Robert G. Morrison" <rmorrison@...>
>>>>> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2002 9:33 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Hahnemule William Turner
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>> My daily rant...this is why I won't use Hahnemuhle papers...you never
>>> are
>>>>>> sure what you are getting!
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Robert
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
>>> other
>>>>> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>>>>> 
>>>>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>>>>> 
>>>>> Please follow these basic guidelines:
>>>>> - Include your full name with your message.
>>>>> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
>>>>> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to
>>> keep
>>>>> them short.
>>>>> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject
>>> header.
>>>>> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
>>> "flames."
>>>>> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
>>>>> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
>>>>> resources on the homepage.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
>>> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> ----------------------
>>>> Robert Morrison
>>>> rmorrison@...
>>>> 
>>>> 310-397-2704
>>>> 
>>>> 4131 Bledsoe Ave.
>>>> Los Angeles, CA 90066
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
>>> other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>>>> 
>>>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>>>> 
>>>> Please follow these basic guidelines:
>>>> - Include your full name with your message.
>>>> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
>>>> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
>>> them short.
>>>> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
>>>> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
>>>> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
>>>> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
>>> resources on the homepage.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
>>> other
>>> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>>> 
>>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>>> 
>>> Please follow these basic guidelines:
>>> - Include your full name with your message.
>>> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
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>>> them short.
>>> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
>>> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
>>> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
>>> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
>>> resources on the homepage.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
>> ----------------------
>> Robert Morrison
>> rmorrison@...
>> 
>> 310-397-2704
>> 
>> 4131 Bledsoe Ave.
>> Los Angeles, CA 90066
>> 
>> 
>> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
>> other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>> 
>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>> 
>> Please follow these basic guidelines:
>> - Include your full name with your message.
>> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
>> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
>> them short.
>> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
>> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
>> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
>> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
>> resources on the homepage.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
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> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
> 

----------------------
Robert Morrison
rmorrison@...

310-397-2704

4131 Bledsoe Ave.
Los Angeles, CA 90066

I've been handling prints by Pablo Kolodny who really is a master printer.
He gave me some nudes to print/scan. These are images which go from deep
deep black to upper end skin tone - no white point!! I can't come close. If
I print on glossy I get close-ish. Its going to be a few weeks before i get
the time to start experimenting with coatings. I'm a better printer
digitally than I am 'wet' so I'm sticking with inkjet - also stop bath kills
my asthma!

Julian
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Kravit" <michael.kravit@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, April 12, 2002 12:36 AM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Hahnemule William Turner


> Julian,
>
> Back to the wet darkroom, eh? Can't say I totally disagree, but a few
weeks
> when I said that the inkjet prints lacked that luninous glow I got
severely
> sun burned ;-).
>
> I am seriously considering a wet darkroom for printing digital negatives
> made on the 7000. I have seen Burkholders process and it is outstanding
both
> in Platinum and Silver.
>
> Mike
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Julian Thomas" <julianthomas@...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2002 5:01 PM
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Hahnemule William Turner
>
>
> > Jerry I agree.I've stopped using WR/WT unless I sell the print framed.
> I've
> > been playing alot with wet prints a lot recently and inkjet is really
> > missing that deep black glow of a semi gloss paper. I'm going to try
> > coating. I think we need the option of a good glossy or matte finish
> > depending on the image. I've got some museo which Robert says gives a
dmax
> > of 2.2 (I think!) and I'll start with that. if i can combine the deep
> > dmax/glow with the inkjet long greyscale range, I'll be REALLY happy.
> >
> > Julian
>
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.

>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>