Digital BW, The Print

Mitch,

For the dye inks I would stick to the Epson papers. It has long been
understood that the chemicals used to buffer archival papers and mat board
would damage color dye materials such as dye transfer prints or textiles
dyed with vegetable dyes.

The Hahnemuhle papers appear to be fully buffered to a pH of 8.0+ and this
buffering, while extremely good for the life of the paper, may be harmful to
the life of the color dye image.

While the carbon pigment inks in theory are immune to the effects of the
buffering agents, I wonder if that is the reason prints on H. papers warm
more than on EAM.

There is also the nature and pH of the coatings used on inkjet papers and
how they interact with the inks. All of this is proprietary information and
we really don't know what will happen over the long haul.

Martin Wesley

http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html



----- Original Message -----
From: "Mitch Alland" <malland@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2002 6:32 PM
Subject: [Digital BW] Photo Rag longevity versus EHM with Epson dye inks?


> [Although this question concerns color inks, I am posting it here as I had
no response on the Epson printer color forum.]
>
> In the Sep 28, 2001 "newsletter" on www.inkjetart.com there was a report
based on Epson information that the life of Epson 1280 (dye) inks on Epson
Heavyweight Matte was much longer (25 years) than on Epson Archival Matte
(10 years), as the latter works better with pigment inks.
>
> Does anyone know what is the situation with Epson 1280 dye inks with
Hahnemuehle Photo Rag: is the lonegevity shorter than with Epson Heavyweight
Matte, along the lines of  Epson Archival Matte?
>
> --Mitch/Bangkok
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
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> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
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> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
"flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.

>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Martin, which epson papers would be good for the 1280 dye inks (26 year
life)? Heavyweight matte isn't nearly heavy enough, and it is too ivory
colored to be useful.

Jerry





Martin Wesley wrote:

> 
> Mitch,
> 
> For the dye inks I would stick to the Epson papers. It has long been
> understood that the chemicals used to buffer archival papers and mat board
> would damage color dye materials such as dye transfer prints or textiles
> dyed with vegetable dyes.
> 
> The Hahnemuhle papers appear to be fully buffered to a pH of 8.0+ and this
> buffering, while extremely good for the life of the paper, may be harmful to
> the life of the color dye image.
> 
> While the carbon pigment inks in theory are immune to the effects of the
> buffering agents, I wonder if that is the reason prints on H. papers warm
> more than on EAM.
> 
> There is also the nature and pH of the coatings used on inkjet papers and
> how they interact with the inks. All of this is proprietary information and
> we really don't know what will happen over the long haul.
> 
> Martin Wesley
> 
> http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mitch Alland" <malland@...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2002 6:32 PM
> Subject: [Digital BW] Photo Rag longevity versus EHM with Epson dye inks?
> 
> > [Although this question concerns color inks, I am posting it here as I had
> no response on the Epson printer color forum.]
> >
> > In the Sep 28, 2001 "newsletter" on www.inkjetart.com there was a report
> based on Epson information that the life of Epson 1280 (dye) inks on Epson
> Heavyweight Matte was much longer (25 years) than on Epson Archival Matte
> (10 years), as the latter works better with pigment inks.
> >
> > Does anyone know what is the situation with Epson 1280 dye inks with
> Hahnemuehle Photo Rag: is the lonegevity shorter than with Epson Heavyweight
> Matte, along the lines of  Epson Archival Matte?
> >
> > --Mitch/Bangkok
> >
> >
> >
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
> other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > - Include your full name with your message.
> > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
> "flames."
> > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> resources on the homepage.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Has anyone tried any of the Ilford Gallerie papers with quadtones?

Any of them work - glossy, pearl?

(I'd love to have even just one glossy paper that worked with out having to
spray it, or it smudged etc - even if it didn't last for ever!)

tim

I have used the Ilford Classic Pearl Paper with FS inks and piezo driver.
I spray it with Krylon. It is my favorite semi-gloss/pearl paper so far
after trying Contech, EPSON, Brightcube, HP, and Kodak Ultima semigloss
papers. It also doesn't seem to smudge as much either but I still spray
it.

Next time I'm going to try their other pearl paper.

-Todd Morton 

On Fri, 12 Jul 2002, Tim Atherton wrote:

> Has anyone tried any of the Ilford Gallerie papers with quadtones?
> 
> Any of them work - glossy, pearl?
> 
> (I'd love to have even just one glossy paper that worked with out having to
> spray it, or it smudged etc - even if it didn't last for ever!)
> 
> tim
> 
>

Friday, July 12, 2002, 11:44:39 AM, Todd Morton wrote:


TM> I have used the Ilford Classic Pearl Paper with FS inks and piezo driver.
TM> I spray it with Krylon. It is my favorite semi-gloss/pearl paper so far
TM> after trying Contech, EPSON, Brightcube, HP, and Kodak Ultima semigloss
TM> papers. It also doesn't seem to smudge as much either but I still spray
TM> it.

TM> Next time I'm going to try their other pearl paper.

TM> -Todd Morton 


Todd,

I have both Ilford Classic Pearl and Smooth Pearl and may want to try
this.  Which spray do you recommend and how to spray?  Do I need to
spray immediately after it prints or wait for it to dry first?  Also,
how does it look to you?

Best regards,
 Richard  

mailto:richard@...

The prints made with either classic or smooth pearl are really soft compared
to what you can get with Brightcube Semi-Matte or Generations Prophoto
Luster.  These papers, while still needing to be sprayed, are sharp and much
easier to handle until sprayed.  They are unfortunately not quite as heavy
(or cheap) as the Illford papers...but the performance difference is really
large.  The Illford papers are very similar in performance to Kodak Ultima
Satin.  My comments are for MIS FS-N, Conetech PiezoBW inks and Piezotone
inks.  See past posts under the thread "Glossy Paper Screen" and "Brightcube
Semi-Matte".

Robert

On 7/12/02 11:44 AM, "Todd Morton" <toddm@...> wrote:

> 
> I have used the Ilford Classic Pearl Paper with FS inks and piezo driver.
> I spray it with Krylon. It is my favorite semi-gloss/pearl paper so far
> after trying Contech, EPSON, Brightcube, HP, and Kodak Ultima semigloss
> papers. It also doesn't seem to smudge as much either but I still spray
> it.
> 
> Next time I'm going to try their other pearl paper.
> 
> -Todd Morton 
> 
> 
> On Fri, 12 Jul 2002, Tim Atherton wrote:
> 
>> Has anyone tried any of the Ilford Gallerie papers with quadtones?
>> 
>> Any of them work - glossy, pearl?
>> 
>> (I'd love to have even just one glossy paper that worked with out having to
>> spray it, or it smudged etc - even if it didn't last for ever!)
>> 
>> tim
>>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jerry Olson" <jerryolson@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, July 12, 2002 8:53 AM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Photo Rag longevity versus EHM with Epson dye
inks?


> Martin, which epson papers would be good for the 1280 dye inks (26 year
> life)? Heavyweight matte isn't nearly heavy enough, and it is too ivory
> colored to be useful.
>
Jerry,

I really don't know on that one. I would probably stick to Epson's
recommendations since it is their ink. I have been using Epson's ColorLife
paper for the family snapshots but I don't know if you would like the RC
pearl type finish. Maybe someone on the Archical Color group has some
suggestions.

Martin Wesley

http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html



>
>
> Martin Wesley wrote:
> >
> > Mitch,
> >
> > For the dye inks I would stick to the Epson papers. It has long been
> > understood that the chemicals used to buffer archival papers and mat
board
> > would damage color dye materials such as dye transfer prints or textiles
> > dyed with vegetable dyes.
> >
> > The Hahnemuhle papers appear to be fully buffered to a pH of 8.0+ and
this
> > buffering, while extremely good for the life of the paper, may be
harmful to
> > the life of the color dye image.
> >
> > While the carbon pigment inks in theory are immune to the effects of the
> > buffering agents, I wonder if that is the reason prints on H. papers
warm
> > more than on EAM.
> >
> > There is also the nature and pH of the coatings used on inkjet papers
and
> > how they interact with the inks. All of this is proprietary information
and
> > we really don't know what will happen over the long haul.
> >
> > Martin Wesley
> >
> > http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Mitch Alland" <malland@...>
> > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2002 6:32 PM
> > Subject: [Digital BW] Photo Rag longevity versus EHM with Epson dye
inks?
> >
> > > [Although this question concerns color inks, I am posting it here as I
had
> > no response on the Epson printer color forum.]
> > >
> > > In the Sep 28, 2001 "newsletter" on www.inkjetart.com there was a
report
> > based on Epson information that the life of Epson 1280 (dye) inks on
Epson
> > Heavyweight Matte was much longer (25 years) than on Epson Archival
Matte
> > (10 years), as the latter works better with pigment inks.
> > >
> > > Does anyone know what is the situation with Epson 1280 dye inks with
> > Hahnemuehle Photo Rag: is the lonegevity shorter than with Epson
Heavyweight
> > Matte, along the lines of  Epson Archival Matte?
> > >
> > > --Mitch/Bangkok
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls
and
> > other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> > >
> > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> > >
> > > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > > - Include your full name with your message.
> > > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> > > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to
keep
> > them short.
> > > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject
header.
> > > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
> > "flames."
> > > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> > > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the
various
> > resources on the homepage.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > - Include your full name with your message.
> > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to
keep them short.
> > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject
header.
> > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
"flames."
> > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
"flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.

>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

I'm not Todd, but I spray almost straight away. I've not had any bronzing
yet.

Julian
----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Sintchak" <richard@...>
To: "Todd Morton" <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, July 12, 2002 9:34 PM
Subject: Re[2]: [Digital BW] Ilford papers - any tried them?


> Friday, July 12, 2002, 11:44:39 AM, Todd Morton wrote:
>
>
> TM> I have used the Ilford Classic Pearl Paper with FS inks and piezo
driver.
> TM> I spray it with Krylon. It is my favorite semi-gloss/pearl paper so
far
> TM> after trying Contech, EPSON, Brightcube, HP, and Kodak Ultima
semigloss
> TM> papers. It also doesn't seem to smudge as much either but I still
spray
> TM> it.
>
> TM> Next time I'm going to try their other pearl paper.
>
> TM> -Todd Morton
>
>
> Todd,
>
> I have both Ilford Classic Pearl and Smooth Pearl and may want to try
> this.  Which spray do you recommend and how to spray?  Do I need to
> spray immediately after it prints or wait for it to dry first?  Also,
> how does it look to you?
>
> Best regards,
>  Richard
>
> mailto:richard@...
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
"flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.

>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Richard,

I also spray them right away with Kraylon - give plenty of air it has
toluene (very bad) in it. BTW do any of the other sprays that give good
results not have toluene?

WRT Robert's comments. I get much different and, IMHO, better results with
these papers than Ultima Satin. I have only tried a couple Brightcube
samples. There doesn't seem to be a Conetech profile that does well with
it and I don't have time to fool around with curves - this is not my real
job :-)

-Todd Morton

On Fri, 12 Jul 2002, Richard Sintchak wrote:

> Friday, July 12, 2002, 11:44:39 AM, Todd Morton wrote:
> 
> 
> TM> I have used the Ilford Classic Pearl Paper with FS inks and piezo driver.
> TM> I spray it with Krylon. It is my favorite semi-gloss/pearl paper so far
> TM> after trying Contech, EPSON, Brightcube, HP, and Kodak Ultima semigloss
> TM> papers. It also doesn't seem to smudge as much either but I still spray
> TM> it.
> 
> TM> Next time I'm going to try their other pearl paper.
> 
> TM> -Todd Morton 
> 
> 
> Todd,
> 
> I have both Ilford Classic Pearl and Smooth Pearl and may want to try
> this.  Which spray do you recommend and how to spray?  Do I need to
> spray immediately after it prints or wait for it to dry first?  Also,
> how does it look to you?
> 
> Best regards,
>  Richard  
> 
> mailto:richard@...
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various resources on the homepage. 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> 
> 
>

Nope, I absolutely hate  the rc look. Tacky Tacky Tacky!!! Cheap!
Commercial! Ugh!

(In my humble opinion, of course.).

Brightcube says Eclipse satine is good with dyes or pigments. That and
the Photo Matte are what I use most often. Photo Rag is indeed
wonderful, but too expensive for me.

Jerry

Martin Wesley wrote:

> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jerry Olson" <jerryolson@...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, July 12, 2002 8:53 AM
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Photo Rag longevity versus EHM with Epson dye
> inks?
> 
> > Martin, which epson papers would be good for the 1280 dye inks (26 year
> > life)? Heavyweight matte isn't nearly heavy enough, and it is too ivory
> > colored to be useful.
> >
> Jerry,
> 
> I really don't know on that one. I would probably stick to Epson's
> recommendations since it is their ink. I have been using Epson's ColorLife
> paper for the family snapshots but I don't know if you would like the RC
> pearl type finish. Maybe someone on the Archical Color group has some
> suggestions.
> 
> Martin Wesley
> 
> http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html
> 
> >
> >
> > Martin Wesley wrote:
> > >
> > > Mitch,
> > >
> > > For the dye inks I would stick to the Epson papers. It has long been
> > > understood that the chemicals used to buffer archival papers and mat
> board
> > > would damage color dye materials such as dye transfer prints or textiles
> > > dyed with vegetable dyes.
> > >
> > > The Hahnemuhle papers appear to be fully buffered to a pH of 8.0+ and
> this
> > > buffering, while extremely good for the life of the paper, may be
> harmful to
> > > the life of the color dye image.
> > >
> > > While the carbon pigment inks in theory are immune to the effects of the
> > > buffering agents, I wonder if that is the reason prints on H. papers
> warm
> > > more than on EAM.
> > >
> > > There is also the nature and pH of the coatings used on inkjet papers
> and
> > > how they interact with the inks. All of this is proprietary information
> and
> > > we really don't know what will happen over the long haul.
> > >
> > > Martin Wesley
> > >
> > > http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Mitch Alland" <malland@...>
> > > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > > Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2002 6:32 PM
> > > Subject: [Digital BW] Photo Rag longevity versus EHM with Epson dye
> inks?
> > >
> > > > [Although this question concerns color inks, I am posting it here as I
> had
> > > no response on the Epson printer color forum.]
> > > >
> > > > In the Sep 28, 2001 "newsletter" on www.inkjetart.com there was a
> report
> > > based on Epson information that the life of Epson 1280 (dye) inks on
> Epson
> > > Heavyweight Matte was much longer (25 years) than on Epson Archival
> Matte
> > > (10 years), as the latter works better with pigment inks.
> > > >
> > > > Does anyone know what is the situation with Epson 1280 dye inks with
> > > Hahnemuehle Photo Rag: is the lonegevity shorter than with Epson
> Heavyweight
> > > Matte, along the lines of  Epson Archival Matte?
> > > >
> > > > --Mitch/Bangkok
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls
> and
> > > other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> > > >
> > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> > > >
> > > > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > > > - Include your full name with your message.
> > > > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> > > > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to
> keep
> > > them short.
> > > > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject
> header.
> > > > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
> > > "flames."
> > > > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> > > > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the
> various
> > > resources on the homepage.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
> other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> > >
> > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> > >
> > > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > > - Include your full name with your message.
> > > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> > > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to
> keep them short.
> > > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject
> header.
> > > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
> "flames."
> > > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> > > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> resources on the homepage.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
> other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > - Include your full name with your message.
> > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
> "flames."
> > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> resources on the homepage.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

On 7/13/02 8:04 AM, "Todd Morton" <toddm@...> wrote:

> 
> Richard,
> 
> I also spray them right away with Kraylon - give plenty of air it has
> toluene (very bad) in it. BTW do any of the other sprays that give good
> results not have toluene?

Dry them for 24 hours in a rack and then spray...otherwise you may wind up
with long term fogging of the image...I've seen this on several prints.

> WRT Robert's comments. I get much different and, IMHO, better results with
> these papers than Ultima Satin. I have only tried a couple Brightcube
> samples. There doesn't seem to be a Conetech profile that does well with
> it and I don't have time to fool around with curves - this is not my real
> job :-)

The dmax is better on the Ilford Smooth Pearl than on the Ultima...but the
image softness is similar.  The Ilford classic smooth is made for pigments,
the classic is for dyes.

The Brightcube Semi-Matte gives slightly lower dmax than the Ilford Smooth
Pearl...but the sprayed dmax is the same and the images are much sharper.
The paper is also infinitely easier to handle...you can literally blow the
quad inks off of the Ilford.  None of the cone profiles are perfect for any
of these papers...in fact his profiles for the gloss papers he does support
(e.g., Epson Premium Gloss and Luster) are not good on those papers...but
with a custom dot density curve you can make them work.  I've printed quads
on every major gloss/semigloss paper and the best one with the quad inks are
Brightcube Semi-Matte and Generations Prophoto Lustre.  This takes into
account dmax, image sharpness and handling ease.  There is a significant
need for good profiles though...but Cone doesn't seem to be interested
because the papers need to be sprayed.

My 2 cents,

Robert

> 
> On Fri, 12 Jul 2002, Richard Sintchak wrote:
> 
>> Friday, July 12, 2002, 11:44:39 AM, Todd Morton wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> TM> I have used the Ilford Classic Pearl Paper with FS inks and piezo driver.
>> TM> I spray it with Krylon. It is my favorite semi-gloss/pearl paper so far
>> TM> after trying Contech, EPSON, Brightcube, HP, and Kodak Ultima semigloss
>> TM> papers. It also doesn't seem to smudge as much either but I still spray
>> TM> it.
>> 
>> TM> Next time I'm going to try their other pearl paper.
>> 
>> TM> -Todd Morton
>> 
>> 
>> Todd,
>> 
>> I have both Ilford Classic Pearl and Smooth Pearl and may want to try
>> this.  Which spray do you recommend and how to spray?  Do I need to
>> spray immediately after it prints or wait for it to dry first?  Also,
>> how does it look to you?
>> 
>> Best regards,
>>  Richard  
>>

On 7/13/02 8:24 AM, "Jerry Olson" <jerryolson@...> wrote:

> Nope, I absolutely hate  the rc look. Tacky Tacky Tacky!!! Cheap!
> Commercial! Ugh!
> 
> (In my humble opinion, of course.).
> 
> Brightcube says Eclipse satine is good with dyes or pigments.

"good"...now there's an interesting word.  Is that like 3 Wilhelm years or
30 or 300...or isn't there any difference...or does it depend on the gamut
of the ink set?  I know the folks at Brightcube and they definitely don't
see dye inks on their paper as any type of archival option...now the inks do
look nice...as they do on Museo.  Great for birthday cards or a temporary
commercial portfolio.

Robert

> Martin Wesley wrote:
>> 
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Jerry Olson" <jerryolson@...>
>> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
>> Sent: Friday, July 12, 2002 8:53 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Photo Rag longevity versus EHM with Epson dye
>> inks?
>> 
>>> Martin, which epson papers would be good for the 1280 dye inks (26 year
>>> life)? Heavyweight matte isn't nearly heavy enough, and it is too ivory
>>> colored to be useful.
>>> 
>> Jerry,
>> 
>> I really don't know on that one. I would probably stick to Epson's
>> recommendations since it is their ink. I have been using Epson's ColorLife
>> paper for the family snapshots but I don't know if you would like the RC
>> pearl type finish. Maybe someone on the Archical Color group has some
>> suggestions.
>> 
>> Martin Wesley
>> 
>> http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html
>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Martin Wesley wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Mitch,
>>>> 
>>>> For the dye inks I would stick to the Epson papers. It has long been
>>>> understood that the chemicals used to buffer archival papers and mat
>> board
>>>> would damage color dye materials such as dye transfer prints or textiles
>>>> dyed with vegetable dyes.
>>>> 
>>>> The Hahnemuhle papers appear to be fully buffered to a pH of 8.0+ and
>> this
>>>> buffering, while extremely good for the life of the paper, may be
>> harmful to
>>>> the life of the color dye image.
>>>> 
>>>> While the carbon pigment inks in theory are immune to the effects of the
>>>> buffering agents, I wonder if that is the reason prints on H. papers
>> warm
>>>> more than on EAM.
>>>> 
>>>> There is also the nature and pH of the coatings used on inkjet papers
>> and
>>>> how they interact with the inks. All of this is proprietary information
>> and
>>>> we really don't know what will happen over the long haul.
>>>> 
>>>> Martin Wesley
>>>> 
>>>> http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html
>>>> 
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Mitch Alland" <malland@...>
>>>> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
>>>> Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2002 6:32 PM
>>>> Subject: [Digital BW] Photo Rag longevity versus EHM with Epson dye
>> inks?
>>>> 
>>>>> [Although this question concerns color inks, I am posting it here as I
>> had
>>>> no response on the Epson printer color forum.]
>>>>> 
>>>>> In the Sep 28, 2001 "newsletter" on www.inkjetart.com there was a
>> report
>>>> based on Epson information that the life of Epson 1280 (dye) inks on
>> Epson
>>>> Heavyweight Matte was much longer (25 years) than on Epson Archival
>> Matte
>>>> (10 years), as the latter works better with pigment inks.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Does anyone know what is the situation with Epson 1280 dye inks with
>>>> Hahnemuehle Photo Rag: is the lonegevity shorter than with Epson
>> Heavyweight
>>>> Matte, along the lines of  Epson Archival Matte?
>>>>> 
>>>>> --Mitch/Bangkok
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls
>> and
>>>> other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>>>>> 
>>>>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>>>>> 
>>>>> Please follow these basic guidelines:
>>>>> - Include your full name with your message.
>>>>> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
>>>>> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to
>> keep
>>>> them short.
>>>>> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject
>> header.
>>>>> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
>>>> "flames."
>>>>> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
>>>>> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the
>> various
>>>> resources on the homepage.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jerry Olson" <jerryolson@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, July 13, 2002 8:24 AM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Photo Rag longevity versus EHM with Epson dye
inks?


> Nope, I absolutely hate  the rc look. Tacky Tacky Tacky!!! Cheap!
> Commercial! Ugh!
>
> (In my humble opinion, of course.).

Jerry,

That's about what I thought you would say. <G>
>
> Brightcube says Eclipse satine is good with dyes or pigments. That and
> the Photo Matte are what I use most often. Photo Rag is indeed
> wonderful, but too expensive for me.

Give it a try and let me know what you think.

Martin
>
>
> Martin Wesley wrote:
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Jerry Olson" <jerryolson@...>
> > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Friday, July 12, 2002 8:53 AM
> > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Photo Rag longevity versus EHM with Epson dye
> > inks?
> >
> > > Martin, which epson papers would be good for the 1280 dye inks (26
year
> > > life)? Heavyweight matte isn't nearly heavy enough, and it is too
ivory
> > > colored to be useful.
> > >
> > Jerry,
> >
> > I really don't know on that one. I would probably stick to Epson's
> > recommendations since it is their ink. I have been using Epson's
ColorLife
> > paper for the family snapshots but I don't know if you would like the RC
> > pearl type finish. Maybe someone on the Archical Color group has some
> > suggestions.
> >
> > Martin Wesley
> >
> > http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > Martin Wesley wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Mitch,
> > > >
> > > > For the dye inks I would stick to the Epson papers. It has long been
> > > > understood that the chemicals used to buffer archival papers and mat
> > board
> > > > would damage color dye materials such as dye transfer prints or
textiles
> > > > dyed with vegetable dyes.
> > > >
> > > > The Hahnemuhle papers appear to be fully buffered to a pH of 8.0+
and
> > this
> > > > buffering, while extremely good for the life of the paper, may be
> > harmful to
> > > > the life of the color dye image.
> > > >
> > > > While the carbon pigment inks in theory are immune to the effects of
the
> > > > buffering agents, I wonder if that is the reason prints on H. papers
> > warm
> > > > more than on EAM.
> > > >
> > > > There is also the nature and pH of the coatings used on inkjet
papers
> > and
> > > > how they interact with the inks. All of this is proprietary
information
> > and
> > > > we really don't know what will happen over the long haul.
> > > >
> > > > Martin Wesley
> > > >
> > > > http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Mitch Alland" <malland@...>
> > > > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > > > Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2002 6:32 PM
> > > > Subject: [Digital BW] Photo Rag longevity versus EHM with Epson dye
> > inks?
> > > >
> > > > > [Although this question concerns color inks, I am posting it here
as I
> > had
> > > > no response on the Epson printer color forum.]
> > > > >
> > > > > In the Sep 28, 2001 "newsletter" on www.inkjetart.com there was a
> > report
> > > > based on Epson information that the life of Epson 1280 (dye) inks on
> > Epson
> > > > Heavyweight Matte was much longer (25 years) than on Epson Archival
> > Matte
> > > > (10 years), as the latter works better with pigment inks.
> > > > >
> > > > > Does anyone know what is the situation with Epson 1280 dye inks
with
> > > > Hahnemuehle Photo Rag: is the lonegevity shorter than with Epson
> > Heavyweight
> > > > Matte, along the lines of  Epson Archival Matte?
> > > > >
> > > > > --Mitch/Bangkok
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks,
Polls
> > and
> > > > other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> > > > >
> > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> > > > >
> > > > > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > > > > - Include your full name with your message.
> > > > > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> > > > > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages
to
> > keep
> > > > them short.
> > > > > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject
> > header.
> > > > > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
> > > > "flames."
> > > > > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> > > > > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the
> > various
> > > > resources on the homepage.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls
and
> > other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> > > >
> > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> > > >
> > > > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > > > - Include your full name with your message.
> > > > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> > > > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages
to
> > keep them short.
> > > > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject
> > header.
> > > > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
> > "flames."
> > > > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> > > > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the
various
> > resources on the homepage.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > >
> > > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls
and
> > other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> > >
> > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> > >
> > > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > > - Include your full name with your message.
> > > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> > > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to
keep
> > them short.
> > > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject
header.
> > > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
> > "flames."
> > > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> > > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the
various
> > resources on the homepage.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > - Include your full name with your message.
> > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to
keep them short.
> > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject
header.
> > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
"flames."
> > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
"flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.

>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Martin, I have 25 sheets of photo rag, and I have tried it. It is
magnificent. But even at Media street under Royal renaissance it is too
expensive for everyday use. It is fine, of course for photos that I sell.

It prints as well as any hahnemuhle paper, and a little blacker than
most, it seems. Wells river is gorgeous in TONES but the flaking is just
unreal with this paper.

What do you think of the Photo rag for epson 1280 color inks?  I'm
looking for a really nice paper that will last at least as long as the
26 years claimed by epson for their 1280 color inkset. I have run fade
tests with this ink, south window, etc, and it doesn't fade at all to
the eye, even after 2 months in the sun. So it should really be good for
26 years under glass, I would think. Anyway, at the low prices I sell
for, I'm not going to worry about it, as I don't sell a lot of color.
The Recommended Epson heavyweight matte is not nearly heavy enough for me.

jerry

Martin Wesley wrote:

> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jerry Olson" <jerryolson@...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Saturday, July 13, 2002 8:24 AM
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Photo Rag longevity versus EHM with Epson dye
> inks?
> 
> > Nope, I absolutely hate  the rc look. Tacky Tacky Tacky!!! Cheap!
> > Commercial! Ugh!
> >
> > (In my humble opinion, of course.).
> 
> Jerry,
> 
> That's about what I thought you would say. <G>
> >
> > Brightcube says Eclipse satine is good with dyes or pigments. That and
> > the Photo Matte are what I use most often. Photo Rag is indeed
> > wonderful, but too expensive for me.
> 
> Give it a try and let me know what you think.
> 
> Martin
> >
> >
> > Martin Wesley wrote:
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Jerry Olson" <jerryolson@...>
> > > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > > Sent: Friday, July 12, 2002 8:53 AM
> > > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Photo Rag longevity versus EHM with Epson dye
> > > inks?
> > >
> > > > Martin, which epson papers would be good for the 1280 dye inks (26
> year
> > > > life)? Heavyweight matte isn't nearly heavy enough, and it is too
> ivory
> > > > colored to be useful.
> > > >
> > > Jerry,
> > >
> > > I really don't know on that one. I would probably stick to Epson's
> > > recommendations since it is their ink. I have been using Epson's
> ColorLife
> > > paper for the family snapshots but I don't know if you would like the RC
> > > pearl type finish. Maybe someone on the Archical Color group has some
> > > suggestions.
> > >
> > > Martin Wesley
> > >
> > > http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Martin Wesley wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Mitch,
> > > > >
> > > > > For the dye inks I would stick to the Epson papers. It has long been
> > > > > understood that the chemicals used to buffer archival papers and mat
> > > board
> > > > > would damage color dye materials such as dye transfer prints or
> textiles
> > > > > dyed with vegetable dyes.
> > > > >
> > > > > The Hahnemuhle papers appear to be fully buffered to a pH of 8.0+
> and
> > > this
> > > > > buffering, while extremely good for the life of the paper, may be
> > > harmful to
> > > > > the life of the color dye image.
> > > > >
> > > > > While the carbon pigment inks in theory are immune to the effects of
> the
> > > > > buffering agents, I wonder if that is the reason prints on H. papers
> > > warm
> > > > > more than on EAM.
> > > > >
> > > > > There is also the nature and pH of the coatings used on inkjet
> papers
> > > and
> > > > > how they interact with the inks. All of this is proprietary
> information
> > > and
> > > > > we really don't know what will happen over the long haul.
> > > > >
> > > > > Martin Wesley
> > > > >
> > > > > http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html
> > > > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: "Mitch Alland" <malland@...>
> > > > > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2002 6:32 PM
> > > > > Subject: [Digital BW] Photo Rag longevity versus EHM with Epson dye
> > > inks?
> > > > >
> > > > > > [Although this question concerns color inks, I am posting it here
> as I
> > > had
> > > > > no response on the Epson printer color forum.]
> > > > > >
> > > > > > In the Sep 28, 2001 "newsletter" on www.inkjetart.com there was a
> > > report
> > > > > based on Epson information that the life of Epson 1280 (dye) inks on
> > > Epson
> > > > > Heavyweight Matte was much longer (25 years) than on Epson Archival
> > > Matte
> > > > > (10 years), as the latter works better with pigment inks.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Does anyone know what is the situation with Epson 1280 dye inks
> with
> > > > > Hahnemuehle Photo Rag: is the lonegevity shorter than with Epson
> > > Heavyweight
> > > > > Matte, along the lines of  Epson Archival Matte?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --Mitch/Bangkok
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks,
> Polls
> > > and
> > > > > other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > > > > > - Include your full name with your message.
> > > > > > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> > > > > > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages
> to
> > > keep
> > > > > them short.
> > > > > > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject
> > > header.
> > > > > > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
> > > > > "flames."
> > > > > > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> > > > > > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the
> > > various
> > > > > resources on the homepage.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls
> and
> > > other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
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> > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> > > > >
> > > > > Please follow these basic guidelines:
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> various
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> keep
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> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
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> > >
> > >
> > > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
> other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
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> > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> > >
> > > Please follow these basic guidelines:
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Jerry Olson" <jerryolson@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, July 13, 2002 2:40 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Photo Rag longevity versus EHM with Epson dye
inks?


> Martin, I have 25 sheets of photo rag, and I have tried it. It is
> magnificent. But even at Media street under Royal renaissance it is too
> expensive for everyday use. It is fine, of course for photos that I sell.
>
> It prints as well as any hahnemuhle paper, and a little blacker than
> most, it seems. Wells river is gorgeous in TONES but the flaking is just
> unreal with this paper.
>
> What do you think of the Photo rag for epson 1280 color inks?  I'm
> looking for a really nice paper that will last at least as long as the
> 26 years claimed by epson for their 1280 color inkset. I have run fade
> tests with this ink, south window, etc, and it doesn't fade at all to
> the eye, even after 2 months in the sun. So it should really be good for
> 26 years under glass, I would think. Anyway, at the low prices I sell
> for, I'm not going to worry about it, as I don't sell a lot of color.
> The Recommended Epson heavyweight matte is not nearly heavy enough for me.
>
Jerry,

Well if it lasted 2 months in a sunny window that sounds pretty good to me.
I have seen standard color photos fade faster than that under those kind of
conditions. Hard to argue with first hand data. How that will project into
long term life? I have no idea.

I have been using the ColorLife because the wife likes the surface and I
figured it should keep the images on the paper for family snapshots at least
as long as I am around. If I was serious about color as "fine art" I would
be looking at one of the pigment sets and using Photo Rag.

Martin

>
> Martin Wesley wrote:
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Jerry Olson" <jerryolson@...>
> > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Saturday, July 13, 2002 8:24 AM
> > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Photo Rag longevity versus EHM with Epson dye
> > inks?
> >
> > > Nope, I absolutely hate  the rc look. Tacky Tacky Tacky!!! Cheap!
> > > Commercial! Ugh!
> > >
> > > (In my humble opinion, of course.).
> >
> > Jerry,
> >
> > That's about what I thought you would say. <G>
> > >
> > > Brightcube says Eclipse satine is good with dyes or pigments. That and
> > > the Photo Matte are what I use most often. Photo Rag is indeed
> > > wonderful, but too expensive for me.
> >
> > Give it a try and let me know what you think.
> >
> > Martin
> > >
> > >
> > > Martin Wesley wrote:
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Jerry Olson" <jerryolson@...>
> > > > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > > > Sent: Friday, July 12, 2002 8:53 AM
> > > > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Photo Rag longevity versus EHM with Epson
dye
> > > > inks?
> > > >
> > > > > Martin, which epson papers would be good for the 1280 dye inks (26
> > year
> > > > > life)? Heavyweight matte isn't nearly heavy enough, and it is too
> > ivory
> > > > > colored to be useful.
> > > > >
> > > > Jerry,
> > > >
> > > > I really don't know on that one. I would probably stick to Epson's
> > > > recommendations since it is their ink. I have been using Epson's
> > ColorLife
> > > > paper for the family snapshots but I don't know if you would like
the RC
> > > > pearl type finish. Maybe someone on the Archical Color group has
some
> > > > suggestions.
> > > >
> > > > Martin Wesley
> > > >
> > > > http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Martin Wesley wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Mitch,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > For the dye inks I would stick to the Epson papers. It has long
been
> > > > > > understood that the chemicals used to buffer archival papers and
mat
> > > > board
> > > > > > would damage color dye materials such as dye transfer prints or
> > textiles
> > > > > > dyed with vegetable dyes.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The Hahnemuhle papers appear to be fully buffered to a pH of
8.0+
> > and
> > > > this
> > > > > > buffering, while extremely good for the life of the paper, may
be
> > > > harmful to
> > > > > > the life of the color dye image.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > While the carbon pigment inks in theory are immune to the
effects of
> > the
> > > > > > buffering agents, I wonder if that is the reason prints on H.
papers
> > > > warm
> > > > > > more than on EAM.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > There is also the nature and pH of the coatings used on inkjet
> > papers
> > > > and
> > > > > > how they interact with the inks. All of this is proprietary
> > information
> > > > and
> > > > > > we really don't know what will happen over the long haul.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Martin Wesley
> > > > > >
> > > > > > http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > From: "Mitch Alland" <malland@...>
> > > > > > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > > Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2002 6:32 PM
> > > > > > Subject: [Digital BW] Photo Rag longevity versus EHM with Epson
dye
> > > > inks?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > [Although this question concerns color inks, I am posting it
here
> > as I
> > > > had
> > > > > > no response on the Epson printer color forum.]
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > In the Sep 28, 2001 "newsletter" on www.inkjetart.com there
was a
> > > > report
> > > > > > based on Epson information that the life of Epson 1280 (dye)
inks on
> > > > Epson
> > > > > > Heavyweight Matte was much longer (25 years) than on Epson
Archival
> > > > Matte
> > > > > > (10 years), as the latter works better with pigment inks.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Does anyone know what is the situation with Epson 1280 dye
inks
> > with
> > > > > > Hahnemuehle Photo Rag: is the lonegevity shorter than with Epson
> > > > Heavyweight
> > > > > > Matte, along the lines of  Epson Archival Matte?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --Mitch/Bangkok
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
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Jerry,

this isn't quite on your topic of Epson dye inks, but I can tell you 
that I am stoked by the results of using Hahnemühle Photo Rag 308 and 
the MIS Archival pigment inks with the substitution of extended 
yellow in their standard color inkset.  Blacks are wonderful, colors 
match the screen...This combination I use for my fine art printing. 
Your right, it is expensive, however I expect that it is easily in 
excess of 100 years under glass on the wall with no direct sunlight. 
The EHM is fine for the everyday snapshots to friends printing...and 
much more cost effective...and I might add should last as long as 
conventional color prints.

I got the curves for the ink/paper combo by using my EyeOne Spectro.

Bill
-- 

b i l l  a g e e  s t u d i o
c a p i s t r a n o  b e a c h  c a l i f o r n i a

billagee@...
http://www.redsilver.com

Did you try them also on Museo Bill? I'm wondering whether the 
blotchiness Paul was bothered by with the VM quad tones is also a 
problem with the pigmented color ink sets?

Thanks.

Sam

>Jerry,
>
>this isn't quite on your topic of Epson dye inks, but I can tell you
>that I am stoked by the results of using Hahnemühle Photo Rag 308 and
>the MIS Archival pigment inks with the substitution of extended
>yellow in their standard color inkset.  Blacks are wonderful, colors
>match the screen...This combination I use for my fine art printing.
>Your right, it is expensive, however I expect that it is easily in
>excess of 100 years under glass on the wall with no direct sunlight.
>The EHM is fine for the everyday snapshots to friends printing...and
>much more cost effective...and I might add should last as long as
>conventional color prints.
>
>I got the curves for the ink/paper combo by using my EyeOne Spectro.
>
>Bill
>--
>
>b i l l  a g e e  s t u d i o
>c a p i s t r a n o  b e a c h  c a l i f o r n i a
>
>billagee@...
>http://www.redsilver.com

On 7/13/02 2:40 PM, "Jerry Olson" <jerryolson@...> wrote:

> What do you think of the Photo rag for epson 1280 color inks?  I'm
> looking for a really nice paper that will last at least as long as the
> 26 years claimed by epson for their 1280 color inkset. I have run fade
> tests with this ink, south window, etc, and it doesn't fade at all to
> the eye, even after 2 months in the sun. So it should really be good for
> 26 years under glass, I would think. Anyway, at the low prices I sell
> for, I'm not going to worry about it, as I don't sell a lot of color.
> The Recommended Epson heavyweight matte is not nearly heavy enough for me.

To the best of my knowledge no other matte paper has lasted 25 Wihelm years
with the 1270/1280 inks...Heavyweight Matte is your only option for a
"certified" longevity in this range.  I would just print some color targets
on a couple of different papers and put them in window with a heavy weight
matte print.  I think that Archival Matte gets 10 years with the dyes...so
you could use that as another calibration point for your fade test.

Robert

Jerry,

Completely forgot about this one:

http://www.brightcube.com/products/paper/details/gel.php

Gelatin art might be worth a look...it is a rag 300gm paper made for dyes.
I believe that John Nollendorfs suggested that he got good results with his
dyes...but I doubt it will make it 25 years...nonetheless the prints will
look fantastic.  It used to be called Xtreme Gamut Gelatin.  I have some and
will fire it up with 1280 dyes when I get a chance.  It has pretty heavy
texture, though.

Robert

PS This is rather off topic for the BW list...you might want to ask this
question on the archival color list...just be aware that there are many
people on that list who do not view the 1280 inks in any way archival.
----------------------
Robert Morrison
rmorrison@...

310-397-2704

4131 Bledsoe Ave.
Los Angeles, CA 90066

On 7/14/02 2:21 PM, "Robert Morrison" <rmorrison@...> wrote:

> On 7/13/02 2:40 PM, "Jerry Olson" <jerryolson@...> wrote:
> 
>> What do you think of the Photo rag for epson 1280 color inks?  I'm
>> looking for a really nice paper that will last at least as long as the
>> 26 years claimed by epson for their 1280 color inkset. I have run fade
>> tests with this ink, south window, etc, and it doesn't fade at all to
>> the eye, even after 2 months in the sun. So it should really be good for
>> 26 years under glass, I would think. Anyway, at the low prices I sell
>> for, I'm not going to worry about it, as I don't sell a lot of color.
>> The Recommended Epson heavyweight matte is not nearly heavy enough for me.
> 
> To the best of my knowledge no other matte paper has lasted 25 Wihelm years
> with the 1270/1280 inks...Heavyweight Matte is your only option for a
> "certified" longevity in this range.  I would just print some color targets
> on a couple of different papers and put them in window with a heavy weight
> matte print.  I think that Archival Matte gets 10 years with the dyes...so
> you could use that as another calibration point for your fade test.
> 
> Robert
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
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> 
> 
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