Digital BW, The Print

I'm shooting actor headshots.  I've got a Canon d60, Epson 1280, 
piezotone warm neutrals and... eh!  I'm waiting for "the paper" to 
arrive because thusfar, with the Epson Archival Matte, the results 
are just plain unacceptable.  The Hahnemühle Photo rag is on 
backorder, and I don't know if IT will satisfy whenever I finally 
ACTUALLY see the stuff.  It's such a crapshoot, I'm this close to 
returning to the darkroom.  Does the right paper REALLY exist?

Is anyone out there SO happy with their digital b&w production that 
will PLEASE ease my fears that I've dived into a technology that 
really hasn't gotten there yet?  Help me!!!  Is it possible to find 
b&w satisfaction in the digital world?  Can real b&w be achieved?

I'm at a point where I just want someone to say, "try this paper 
with that particular ink and printer and you'll get very good 
results".  Because so far, well... I'm tired of wasting money.

Thanks for any thoughts.

Treadwinkle

Treadwinkle,

A few specifics might help. Hows it coming up short?

Larry

-----Original Message-----
From: treadwinkle [mailto:VOLveeta@...]
Sent: Saturday, August 31, 2002 11:13 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Is anyone REALLY thrilled? Honestly?


I'm shooting actor headshots.  I've got a Canon d60, Epson 1280,
piezotone warm neutrals and... eh!  I'm waiting for "the paper" to
arrive because thusfar, with the Epson Archival Matte, the results
are just plain unacceptable.  The Hahnem\ufffdhle Photo rag is on
backorder, and I don't know if IT will satisfy whenever I finally
ACTUALLY see the stuff.  It's such a crapshoot, I'm this close to
returning to the darkroom.  Does the right paper REALLY exist?

Is anyone out there SO happy with their digital b&w production that
will PLEASE ease my fears that I've dived into a technology that
really hasn't gotten there yet?  Help me!!!  Is it possible to find
b&w satisfaction in the digital world?  Can real b&w be achieved?

I'm at a point where I just want someone to say, "try this paper
with that particular ink and printer and you'll get very good
results".  Because so far, well... I'm tired of wasting money.

Thanks for any thoughts.

Treadwinkle



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It's mostly coming up short in the transition from highlight to 
shadow.  The gradation (hoping that's the right term) is VERY harsh 
on almost all of my shots.

I really want to believe that the main problem is, I haven't found 
the right paper yet.  The printer is really trying and the inks, I'm 
convinced, have the potential.  But getting papers in western NC is 
impossible, I'll be dependant on ordering from far away and I'm 
really just looking for some great paper recommendations.  I want to 
beleive the paper is out there, but so far, nothing is satisfying 
me.  

It's just too harsh in the midtone areas.

Thanks for ANYTHING!

Treadwinkle

Saturday, August 31, 2002, 10:12:44 PM, treadwinkle wrote:

t> I'm shooting actor headshots.  I've got a Canon d60, Epson 1280, 
t> piezotone warm neutrals and... eh!  I'm waiting for "the paper" to 
t> arrive because thusfar, with the Epson Archival Matte, the results 
t> are just plain unacceptable.  The Hahnem\ufffdhle Photo rag is on 
t> backorder, and I don't know if IT will satisfy whenever I finally 
t> ACTUALLY see the stuff.  It's such a crapshoot, I'm this close to 
t> returning to the darkroom.  Does the right paper REALLY exist?

t> Is anyone out there SO happy with their digital b&w production that 
t> will PLEASE ease my fears that I've dived into a technology that 
t> really hasn't gotten there yet?  Help me!!!  Is it possible to find 
t> b&w satisfaction in the digital world?  Can real b&w be achieved?

t> I'm at a point where I just want someone to say, "try this paper 
t> with that particular ink and printer and you'll get very good 
t> results".  Because so far, well... I'm tired of wasting money.

t> Thanks for any thoughts.

t> Treadwinkle


Have you viewed other's digital work or just your own so far with no
"yardstick" to measure against?

I'm getting some pretty amazing results myself after only two months
with an 1160, MIS FS-N inks and EAM. I've just participated in my
first print exchange and must say I've been even more wowed by those
who are obviously doing an even better job than I am. And one great
thing is seeing in my hands how the potential is even higher with
papers other than EAM. I too am anxiously awaiting my Hahnem\ufffdhle Photo
rag, which is on the way.

Seeing what others have been able to accomplish, even though I was
fairly satisfied even before, has provided incredible incentive
knowing that even better can indeed be achieved.

You do not say how extensive or proficient are your B&W digital
darkroom skills but be sure you are keeping in mind that the entire
digital workflow, (I'll assume you are using superlative negatives)
from scanning the negative to post-processing in Photoshop, is as
important as all your traditional darkroom steps are to producing
a wonderful print digitally as well.

As another poster said, please give us some particulars of your
dissatisfaction, and include details of your entire workflow.

Best regards,
 Richard  

mailto:richard@...

As far as my workflow, well... thusfar all I do is convert to 
greyscale and export to Piezo where I select the paper and dpi.  I'm 
already feeling stupid because I'm guessing that is the most 
elementary way of doing this and there are a ton of other options... 
I suppose.  I just did what Piezo sofware suggested I do with some 
really excellent color files.  In fact, they are extremely well lit 
and frankly, really excellent files.

But to give you an example, one shot literally looks like a guy has 
stubble on his face because of the soft shadow on the actor's jaw 
line.  There is little to no skin tones.  In fact, where in the 
color file you see pores, in piezo print, it's just "white".

I'm very green at this, I admit.  And maybe my biggest problem is, I 
underestimate how much work this is going to take.  Where do I go 
from here?

Treadwinkle

Saturday, August 31, 2002, 10:56:38 PM, treadwinkle wrote:

t> As far as my workflow, well... thusfar all I do is convert to 
t> greyscale and export to Piezo where I select the paper and dpi.  I'm 
t> already feeling stupid because I'm guessing that is the most 
t> elementary way of doing this and there are a ton of other options... 
t> I suppose.  I just did what Piezo sofware suggested I do with some 
t> really excellent color files.  In fact, they are extremely well lit 
t> and frankly, really excellent files.

t> But to give you an example, one shot literally looks like a guy has 
t> stubble on his face because of the soft shadow on the actor's jaw 
t> line.  There is little to no skin tones.  In fact, where in the 
t> color file you see pores, in piezo print, it's just "white".

t> I'm very green at this, I admit.  And maybe my biggest problem is, I 
t> underestimate how much work this is going to take.  Where do I go 
t> from here?

t> Treadwinkle 


Like I said, I've only just got started in this myself (digital B&W
printing), though I am fairly proficient in PS. Others may have more
experienced and direct suggestions but here's a few of mine. Are you
satisfied with the transition to greyscale and the look you're
achieving? If you're starting with color RGB files I recommend taking
a look at this little tutorial in converting to greyscale and being
able to tweak the settings in such a way as to vary the tonal range in
a variety of areas in the image:

<http://www.russellbrown.com/body.html>

Click on the tutorial PDF called "Seeing in Black & White"

Next, how does your Levels histogram look? Is it smooth or is it
jagged with a "combing" look? I find that even files that might look
fairly nice on screen can have very poor histograms with "jaggies" or
"comb lines" which will cause poor tonal transitions and posterization
in areas.

Are your original files 16-bit? I scan all my files in 16-bit, do
general Levels adjustment, then convert to 8-bit. This preserves a
smooth histogram and keeps tonal ranges steady and smooth.

Best regards,
 Richard  

mailto:richard@...

Your experience sounds like my first futile attempt at BW printing
with MS VM and Lysonic Quad inks a year ago ( I gave up ). I have a
currently unstalled MIS Hex FS-e CIS system ready for test.  I am
wondering if it might not be beneficial to leave the pix in RGB and
print from that. The inkset will do the conversion and you may then
try shifting the color tone of the image to attempt to remove some of
the flats in the density spectrum ??  I am not expertised at this
either but am considering the same idea if my BW to BW print is not
optimal. 

I also have eyeball measured the inkset densities by dilution and I
think one of my 6 inks is way too light ( I will redo the set to
confirm ) and will probably mix one closer to my guesstimate of
correctness before I install the system..... I need to pull the Epson colors and measure the differences between their cyan and photocyan, magenta and photomagenta pairs also.

Alex


> I'm very green at this, I admit.  And maybe my biggest problem is,
I 

> underestimate how much work this is going to take.  Where do I go 
> from here?
> 
> Treadwinkle

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "treadwinkle" 
<VOLveeta@b...> wrote:
> I'm shooting actor headshots.  I've got a Canon d60, Epson 1280, 
> piezotone warm neutrals and... eh!  I'm waiting for "the paper" to 
> arrive because thusfar, with the Epson Archival Matte, the results 
> are just plain unacceptable.  The Hahnemühle Photo rag is on 
> backorder, and I don't know if IT will satisfy whenever I finally 
> ACTUALLY see the stuff.  It's such a crapshoot, I'm this close to 
> returning to the darkroom.  Does the right paper REALLY exist?
> 
> Is anyone out there SO happy with their digital b&w production that 
> will PLEASE ease my fears that I've dived into a technology that 
> really hasn't gotten there yet?  Help me!!!  Is it possible to find 
> b&w satisfaction in the digital world?  Can real b&w be achieved?
> 
> I'm at a point where I just want someone to say, "try this paper 
> with that particular ink and printer and you'll get very good 
> results".  Because so far, well... I'm tired of wasting money.
> 
> Thanks for any thoughts.
> 
> Treadwinkle

Hi Treadwinkle,
Hahnemühle Photo rag 308 is the best paper you can get. 
I only have experiences with piezographyBW and the "old" inks with 
1280 epson.
regards
Bernhard
www.photography-works.com

I really appreciate that link AND let me do some research on my 
histograms, you may be pointing me in the right direction.  Many 
many thanks, Richard!

Treadwinkle

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Richard Sintchak 
<richard@c...> wrote:
> Saturday, August 31, 2002, 10:56:38 PM, treadwinkle wrote:
> 
> t> As far as my workflow, well... thusfar all I do is convert to 
> t> greyscale and export to Piezo where I select the paper and 
dpi.  I'm 
> t> already feeling stupid because I'm guessing that is the most 
> t> elementary way of doing this and there are a ton of other 
options... 
> t> I suppose.  I just did what Piezo sofware suggested I do with 
some 
> t> really excellent color files.  In fact, they are extremely well 
lit 
> t> and frankly, really excellent files.
> 
> t> But to give you an example, one shot literally looks like a guy 
has 
> t> stubble on his face because of the soft shadow on the actor's 
jaw 
> t> line.  There is little to no skin tones.  In fact, where in the 
> t> color file you see pores, in piezo print, it's just "white".
> 
> t> I'm very green at this, I admit.  And maybe my biggest problem 
is, I 
> t> underestimate how much work this is going to take.  Where do I 
go 
> t> from here?
> 
> t> Treadwinkle 
> 
> 
> Like I said, I've only just got started in this myself (digital B&W
> printing), though I am fairly proficient in PS. Others may have 
more
> experienced and direct suggestions but here's a few of mine. Are 
you
> satisfied with the transition to greyscale and the look you're
> achieving? If you're starting with color RGB files I recommend 
taking
> a look at this little tutorial in converting to greyscale and being
> able to tweak the settings in such a way as to vary the tonal 
range in
> a variety of areas in the image:
> 
> <http://www.russellbrown.com/body.html>
> 
> Click on the tutorial PDF called "Seeing in Black & White"
> 
> Next, how does your Levels histogram look? Is it smooth or is it
> jagged with a "combing" look? I find that even files that might 
look
> fairly nice on screen can have very poor histograms with "jaggies" 
or
> "comb lines" which will cause poor tonal transitions and 
posterization

> in areas.
> 
> Are your original files 16-bit? I scan all my files in 16-bit, do
> general Levels adjustment, then convert to 8-bit. This preserves a
> smooth histogram and keeps tonal ranges steady and smooth.
> 
> Best regards,
>  Richard  
> 
> mailto:richard@c...

"treadwinkle" wrote:
> It's mostly coming up short in the transition from highlight to 
> shadow.  The gradation (hoping that's the right term) is VERY harsh 
> on almost all of my shots.
> It's just too harsh in the midtone areas.

Have you tried printing a grayscale to see how the tones render?

John V.

The Russell Brown tutorial is a good one. There is another method which  
is described here:
http://www.computer-darkroom.co.uk/
Look at the tutorial entitled "Monochrome from Color". I've had fun  
with both of these methods -- they seem conceptually similar, but  
differ in the detailed methodology.
Also, have you profiled your monitor, printer, etc.?


enjoy,
Bob.

On Sunday, September 1, 2002, at 09:54  AM, treadwinkle wrote:

> I really appreciate that link AND let me do some research on my
> histograms, you may be pointing me in the right direction.  Many
> many thanks, Richard!
>
> Treadwinkle
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Richard Sintchak
> <richard@c...> wrote:
>> Saturday, August 31, 2002, 10:56:38 PM, treadwinkle wrote:
>>
>> t> As far as my workflow, well... thusfar all I do is convert to
>> t> greyscale and export to Piezo where I select the paper and
> dpi.  I'm
>> t> already feeling stupid because I'm guessing that is the most
>> t> elementary way of doing this and there are a ton of other
> options...
>> t> I suppose.  I just did what Piezo sofware suggested I do with
> some
>> t> really excellent color files.  In fact, they are extremely well
> lit
>> t> and frankly, really excellent files.
>>
>> t> But to give you an example, one shot literally looks like a guy
> has
>> t> stubble on his face because of the soft shadow on the actor's
> jaw
>> t> line.  There is little to no skin tones.  In fact, where in the
>> t> color file you see pores, in piezo print, it's just "white".
>>
>> t> I'm very green at this, I admit.  And maybe my biggest problem
> is, I
>> t> underestimate how much work this is going to take.  Where do I
> go
>> t> from here?
>>
>> t> Treadwinkle
>>
>>
>> Like I said, I've only just got started in this myself (digital B&W
>> printing), though I am fairly proficient in PS. Others may have
> more
>> experienced and direct suggestions but here's a few of mine. Are
> you
>> satisfied with the transition to greyscale and the look you're
>> achieving? If you're starting with color RGB files I recommend
> taking
>> a look at this little tutorial in converting to greyscale and being
>> able to tweak the settings in such a way as to vary the tonal
> range in
>> a variety of areas in the image:
>>
>> <http://www.russellbrown.com/body.html>
>>
>> Click on the tutorial PDF called "Seeing in Black & White"
>>
>> Next, how does your Levels histogram look? Is it smooth or is it
>> jagged with a "combing" look? I find that even files that might
> look
>> fairly nice on screen can have very poor histograms with "jaggies"
> or
>> "comb lines" which will cause poor tonal transitions and
> posterization
>> in areas.
>>
>> Are your original files 16-bit? I scan all my files in 16-bit, do
>> general Levels adjustment, then convert to 8-bit. This preserves a
>> smooth histogram and keeps tonal ranges steady and smooth.
>>
>> Best regards,
>>  Richard
>>
>> mailto:richard@c...
>
>
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Treadwinkle,

Have you printed a 21 step wedge greyscale file yet? This should be 
the first things you do with any new ink or ink change. You can get 
the file on the web site at this link:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/Image
%20processing/21stepNew.jpg

It is located in the files>image processing section and 
titled "21stepNew.jpg" on the group web site. Print this first if you 
haven't already. I struggled and struggled only to find out after 
printing this file that one of the ink carts was off. A call to MIS 
got an apology and a prompt replacement.

I understand there are some problems with some of the Piezo inks 
right now as well from reading posts on the Piezo list. Hang in 
there! It is a struggle at first, I've banged around withis this for 
about 6 months. My firts prints were terrible, but now I'm finally 
getting the hang of things and some remarkable results. You will have 
a noticable improvement with the Photorags. Make sure you do a head 
alignment on the printer with your new paper. 

Maybe you can find someone in your area to compare notes and 
workflows, or get some pointers on the conversion and printing 
process. There are some great tutorials out there. Just search around 
on the Adobe sight or the web. Sounds like you have the photography 
down cold. Best wishes, I'll be glad to assist off line if you have 
any specific questions or want to walk through the process. 

Barry Gilliand

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "treadwinkle" 
<VOLveeta@b...> wrote:

> I'm shooting actor headshots.  I've got a Canon d60, Epson 1280, 
> piezotone warm neutrals and... eh!  I'm waiting for "the paper" to 
> arrive because thusfar, with the Epson Archival Matte, the results 
> are just plain unacceptable.  The Hahnemühle Photo rag is on 
> backorder, and I don't know if IT will satisfy whenever I finally 
> ACTUALLY see the stuff.  It's such a crapshoot, I'm this close to 
> returning to the darkroom.  Does the right paper REALLY exist?
> 
> Is anyone out there SO happy with their digital b&w production that 
> will PLEASE ease my fears that I've dived into a technology that 
> really hasn't gotten there yet?  Help me!!!  Is it possible to find 
> b&w satisfaction in the digital world?  Can real b&w be achieved?
> 
> I'm at a point where I just want someone to say, "try this paper 
> with that particular ink and printer and you'll get very good 
> results".  Because so far, well... I'm tired of wasting money.
> 
> Thanks for any thoughts.
> 
> Treadwinkle

If you are doing a straight conversion to b/w in Photoshop, that is likely 
your first problem. Better options are to use the Channel Mixer, the 
Russell Brown method (as someone else already mentioned), or the nik B/W 
Conversion plug-in that is in one of their Efex packages. In my opinion, a 
straight color to b/w conversion in Photoshop gives very flat results.

You may also want to work in 16-bit mode for some of your processing. At 
least until you get your Levels or Curves adjusted.

Jeff Greer

At 05:56 AM 09/01/2002 +0000, you wrote:

>As far as my workflow, well... thusfar all I do is convert to
>greyscale and export to Piezo where I select the paper and dpi.  I'm
>already feeling stupid because I'm guessing that is the most
>elementary way of doing this and there are a ton of other options...
>I suppose.  I just did what Piezo sofware suggested I do with some
>really excellent color files.  In fact, they are extremely well lit
>and frankly, really excellent files.
>
>But to give you an example, one shot literally looks like a guy has
>stubble on his face because of the soft shadow on the actor's jaw
>line.  There is little to no skin tones.  In fact, where in the
>color file you see pores, in piezo print, it's just "white".
>
>I'm very green at this, I admit.  And maybe my biggest problem is, I
>underestimate how much work this is going to take.  Where do I go
>from here?
>
>Treadwinkle
>
>
>
>Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and 
>other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
>If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to 
>unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same 
>page.
>
>Please follow these basic guidelines:
>- Include your full name with your message.
>- Include the address of your website, if you have one.
>- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep 
>them short.
>- As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
>- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or 
>"flames."
>- Complete your Yahoo profile.
>- Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various 
>resources on the homepage.
>
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

TheImagefactory convert to BW filter has worked well for me also. 
Free download for trial at their web site. Mimics different wet 
darkroom looks. 

Barry Gilliand

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., J Greer <jgpinfo@u...> 
wrote:
> If you are doing a straight conversion to b/w in Photoshop, that is 
likely 
> your first problem. Better options are to use the Channel Mixer, 
the 
> Russell Brown method (as someone else already mentioned), or the 
nik B/W 
> Conversion plug-in that is in one of their Efex packages. In my 
opinion, a 
> straight color to b/w conversion in Photoshop gives very flat 
results.
> 
> You may also want to work in 16-bit mode for some of your 
processing. At 
> least until you get your Levels or Curves adjusted.
> 
> Jeff Greer
> 
> At 05:56 AM 09/01/2002 +0000, you wrote:
> >As far as my workflow, well... thusfar all I do is convert to
> >greyscale and export to Piezo where I select the paper and dpi.  
I'm
> >already feeling stupid because I'm guessing that is the most
> >elementary way of doing this and there are a ton of other 
options...
> >I suppose.  I just did what Piezo sofware suggested I do with some
> >really excellent color files.  In fact, they are extremely well lit
> >and frankly, really excellent files.
> >
> >But to give you an example, one shot literally looks like a guy has
> >stubble on his face because of the soft shadow on the actor's jaw
> >line.  There is little to no skin tones.  In fact, where in the
> >color file you see pores, in piezo print, it's just "white".
> >
> >I'm very green at this, I admit.  And maybe my biggest problem is, 
I
> >underestimate how much work this is going to take.  Where do I go
> >from here?
> >
> >Treadwinkle
> >
> >
> >
> >Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, 
Polls and 
> >other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> >
> >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >
> >If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you 
wish to 
> >unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting 
this same 
> >page.
> >
> >Please follow these basic guidelines:
> >- Include your full name with your message.
> >- Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> >- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages 
to keep 
> >them short.
> >- As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject 
header.
> >- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or 
> >&amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot;
> >- Complete your Yahoo profile.
> >- Before posting a question, search the message archives and the 
various 
> >resources on the homepage.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to 
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

on 9/1/2002 7:31 AM, DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com at
DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com wrote:

> Message: 17
> Date: Sun, 01 Sep 2002 05:56:38 -0000
> From: "treadwinkle" <VOLveeta@...>
> Subject: I'll try...
> 
> As far as my workflow, well... thusfar all I do is convert to
> greyscale and export to Piezo where I select the paper and dpi.  I'm
> already feeling stupid because I'm guessing that is the most
> elementary way of doing this and there are a ton of other options...
> I suppose.  I just did what Piezo sofware suggested I do with some
> really excellent color files.  In fact, they are extremely well lit
> and frankly, really excellent files.
> 
> But to give you an example, one shot literally looks like a guy has
> stubble on his face because of the soft shadow on the actor's jaw
> line.  There is little to no skin tones.  In fact, where in the
> color file you see pores, in piezo print, it's just "white".
> 
> I'm very green at this, I admit.  And maybe my biggest problem is, I
> underestimate how much work this is going to take.  Where do I go
> from here?
> 
> Treadwinkle 

Treadwinkle,

I'm thinking that your problem has to do with how to set up photoshop to use
with the piezo driver and workflow. Also I would consider using the MIS FS
inks as they are so much cheaper and you're printing head shots that will be
tossed around and eventually out. And I'd use EAM/EEM paper as it is cheaper
as well.

I don't think I can explain the whole photoshop / piezo workflow and theory
here, but try this as an experiment.

Set you're gray gamma working space to 1.8 and try printing.  This won't  be
a perfect match but should be somewhat closer than you've been describing.

Or better yet, post excactly what you do when you use photoshop and piezo
and maybe someone here can find the error, if there is one.
 
-Bruce

Visit my website at:
http://home.earthlink.net/~smthopr

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "bggilliand2001" 
<bgilliand@m...> wrote:
> Treadwinkle,
> 
> Have you printed a 21 step wedge greyscale file yet? This should be 
> the first things you do with any new ink or ink change. You can get 
> the file on the web site at this link:
> 
> 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/Image
> %20processing/21stepNew.jpg
> 
> It is located in the files>image processing section and 
> titled "21stepNew.jpg" on the group web site. Print this first if 
you 
> haven't already. I struggled and struggled only to find out after 
> printing this file that one of the ink carts was off. A call to MIS 
> got an apology and a prompt replacement.
> 
> I understand there are some problems with some of the Piezo inks 
> right now as well from reading posts on the Piezo list. Hang in 
> there! It is a struggle at first, I've banged around withis this 
for 
> about 6 months. My firts prints were terrible, but now I'm finally 
> getting the hang of things and some remarkable results. You will 
have 
> a noticable improvement with the Photorags. Make sure you do a head 
> alignment on the printer with your new paper. 
> 
> Maybe you can find someone in your area to compare notes and 
> workflows, or get some pointers on the conversion and printing 
> process. There are some great tutorials out there. Just search 
around 
> on the Adobe sight or the web. Sounds like you have the photography 
> down cold. Best wishes, I'll be glad to assist off line if you have 
> any specific questions or want to walk through the process. 
> 
> Barry Gilliand
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "treadwinkle" 
> <VOLveeta@b...> wrote:
> > I'm shooting actor headshots.  I've got a Canon d60, Epson 1280, 
> > piezotone warm neutrals and... eh!  I'm waiting for "the paper" 
to 
> > arrive because thusfar, with the Epson Archival Matte, the 
results 
> > are just plain unacceptable.  The Hahnemühle Photo rag is on 
> > backorder, and I don't know if IT will satisfy whenever I finally 
> > ACTUALLY see the stuff.  It's such a crapshoot, I'm this close to 
> > returning to the darkroom.  Does the right paper REALLY exist?
> > 
> > Is anyone out there SO happy with their digital b&w production 
that 
> > will PLEASE ease my fears that I've dived into a technology that 
> > really hasn't gotten there yet?  Help me!!!  Is it possible to 
find 

> > b&w satisfaction in the digital world?  Can real b&w be achieved?
> > 
> > I'm at a point where I just want someone to say, "try this paper 
> > with that particular ink and printer and you'll get very good 
> > results".  Because so far, well... I'm tired of wasting money.
> > 
> > Thanks for any thoughts.
> > 
> > Treadwinkle

I to had the same frustrations with ink and paper, if you think that 
you have it hard try doing this in Australia, you are really on your 
own!!! I am a commercial advertising photographer see 
brucealexander.com,  Anyway after a few bad starts I got on to the 
photo rag paper and also the German etchers stock. Both are wonderful 
when you get everything right. Main thing is to print the 21 step 
wedge ans then use this when you are viewing the image on the 
monitor. Use the colour picker on photoshop set to % and read the 
numbers. Dont look at the screen grey if it says 50% it will print 
50% so get used to working with the numbers and not your eyes. Hope 
this has given you some encourgement to keep on trying.

Bruce



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "treadwinkle" 
<VOLveeta@b...> wrote:
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "bggilliand2001" 
> <bgilliand@m...> wrote:
> > Treadwinkle,
> > 
> > Have you printed a 21 step wedge greyscale file yet? This should 
be 
> > the first things you do with any new ink or ink change. You can 
get 
> > the file on the web site at this link:
> > 
> > 
> 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/Image
> > %20processing/21stepNew.jpg
> > 
> > It is located in the files>image processing section and 
> > titled "21stepNew.jpg" on the group web site. Print this first if 
> you 
> > haven't already. I struggled and struggled only to find out after 
> > printing this file that one of the ink carts was off. A call to 
MIS 
> > got an apology and a prompt replacement.
> > 
> > I understand there are some problems with some of the Piezo inks 
> > right now as well from reading posts on the Piezo list. Hang in 
> > there! It is a struggle at first, I've banged around withis this 
> for 
> > about 6 months. My firts prints were terrible, but now I'm 
finally 
> > getting the hang of things and some remarkable results. You will 
> have 
> > a noticable improvement with the Photorags. Make sure you do a 
head 
> > alignment on the printer with your new paper. 
> > 
> > Maybe you can find someone in your area to compare notes and 
> > workflows, or get some pointers on the conversion and printing 
> > process. There are some great tutorials out there. Just search 
> around 
> > on the Adobe sight or the web. Sounds like you have the 
photography 
> > down cold. Best wishes, I'll be glad to assist off line if you 
have 
> > any specific questions or want to walk through the process. 
> > 
> > Barry Gilliand
> > 
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "treadwinkle" 
> > <VOLveeta@b...> wrote:
> > > I'm shooting actor headshots.  I've got a Canon d60, Epson 
1280, 
> > > piezotone warm neutrals and... eh!  I'm waiting for "the paper" 
> to 
> > > arrive because thusfar, with the Epson Archival Matte, the 
> results 
> > > are just plain unacceptable.  The Hahnemühle Photo rag is on 
> > > backorder, and I don't know if IT will satisfy whenever I 
finally 
> > > ACTUALLY see the stuff.  It's such a crapshoot, I'm this close 
to 
> > > returning to the darkroom.  Does the right paper REALLY exist?
> > > 
> > > Is anyone out there SO happy with their digital b&w production 
> that 
> > > will PLEASE ease my fears that I've dived into a technology 
that 
> > > really hasn't gotten there yet?  Help me!!!  Is it possible to 
> find 
> > > b&w satisfaction in the digital world?  Can real b&w be 
achieved?
> > > 
> > > I'm at a point where I just want someone to say, "try this 
paper 

> > > with that particular ink and printer and you'll get very good 
> > > results".  Because so far, well... I'm tired of wasting money.
> > > 
> > > Thanks for any thoughts.
> > > 
> > > Treadwinkle

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "treadwinkle" 
<VOLveeta@b...> wrote:
> I'm shooting actor headshots.  I've got a Canon d60, Epson 1280, 
> piezotone warm neutrals and... eh!  I'm waiting for "the paper" to 
> arrive because thusfar, with the Epson Archival Matte, the results 
> are just plain unacceptable.  The Hahnemühle Photo rag is on 
> backorder, and I don't know if IT will satisfy whenever I finally 
> ACTUALLY see the stuff.  It's such a crapshoot, I'm this close to 
> returning to the darkroom.  Does the right paper REALLY exist?
> 
> Is anyone out there SO happy with their digital b&w production that 
> will PLEASE ease my fears that I've dived into a technology that 
> really hasn't gotten there yet?  Help me!!!  Is it possible to find 
> b&w satisfaction in the digital world?  Can real b&w be achieved?
> 


Are you shooting film?  Your original post says you are using a Canon 
D60.  I think most of the advice on this list assumes you are 
shooting film and then scanning a negative.

Val Brunell

Hi,

> Is anyone out there SO happy with their digital b&w production that
> will PLEASE ease my fears that I've dived into a technology that
> really hasn't gotten there yet?  Help me!!!  Is it possible to find
> b&w satisfaction in the digital world?  Can real b&w be achieved?

If you scan film, yes, satisfaction is absolutely guaranteed ;-)

The problem I've had with digital image input is the sensors used in these
digicams, are only RGB, with the exception of a few, one from Kodak and a
back from Kodak come to mind...and if it's RGB, Foveon aside, it's a Bayer
pattern imaging sensor, which means there are only %50 of the sensor
elements are green, %25 blue and %25 red.  So, what you get when you think
you've got a 6M PIXEL camera is really a 6M PIXEL camera that then
interpolates the 6M SENSOR data to give you 6M PIXELS.  That means the data
you get from the camera is made from %33 less information...so the camera is
"making up" %66 of the data you get!

I do have a digital camera that is B&W and not RGB...and it is quite good.
The problem with this is they aren't readily available, and aren't cheap.
It's a niche market, so they're going to be expensive.

I am ecstatic with my methodology, shooting MF (Hasselblad), scanning it at
2540 on a Leafscan that uses only a single ND filter, not RGB, and printing
using Piezography on an Epson 3000 on EHWM.

Austin

Austin,

What camera are you referring to?

Rick Murai

From: "Austin Franklin" <darkroom@...>
Reply-To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 13:07:26 -0400
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Re: Is anyone REALLY thrilled?  Honestly?

I do have a digital camera that is B&W and not RGB...and it is quite good.
The problem with this is they aren't readily available, and aren't cheap.
It's a niche market, so they're going to be expensive.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

What is your disappointment with your prints?  The D60 can make outstanding
quality portraits. Yes, the paper makes a big difference. What is it
about the EAM you don't like? Some love it. Photo Rag is more or less
the paper of choice for fine 
art printing. If you don't like a D60 image printed on that paper, It is
almost certainly your technique that is at fault, not the camera or
paper. Prints on this paper surpass most darkroom prints by a large margin.


jerry



Val Brunell wrote:

> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "treadwinkle"
> <VOLveeta@b...> wrote:
> > I'm shooting actor headshots.  I've got a Canon d60, Epson 1280,
> > piezotone warm neutrals and... eh!  I'm waiting for "the paper" to
> > arrive because thusfar, with the Epson Archival Matte, the results
> > are just plain unacceptable.  The Hahnem\ufffdhle Photo rag is on
> > backorder, and I don't know if IT will satisfy whenever I finally
> > ACTUALLY see the stuff.  It's such a crapshoot, I'm this close to
> > returning to the darkroom.  Does the right paper REALLY exist?
> >
> > Is anyone out there SO happy with their digital b&w production that
> > will PLEASE ease my fears that I've dived into a technology that
> > really hasn't gotten there yet?  Help me!!!  Is it possible to find
> > b&w satisfaction in the digital world?  Can real b&w be achieved?
> >
> 
> Are you shooting film?  Your original post says you are using a Canon
> D60.  I think most of the advice on this list assumes you are
> shooting film and then scanning a negative.
> 
> Val Brunell
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
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Hi Rick,

The one I was referring to here is a Leaf Lumina.  It's a scanning camera
that takes Nikon lenses.  It's REAL 6M pixel sensor data, so with B&W you
get 6M pixels of real grayscale data, not converted Bayer pattern RGB yuck
foo data...

I also have a 7k scanning back for my Hasselblad, but I haven't done any B&W
with it.

Regards,

Austin

> -----Original Message-----
> From: R Murai [mailto:rmurai@...]
> Sent: Monday, September 30, 2002 1:51 PM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: B&W Dig Camera?? WAS: Is anyone REALLY...
>
>
> Austin,
>
> What camera are you referring to?
>
> Rick Murai
>
> From: "Austin Franklin" <darkroom@...>
> Reply-To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 13:07:26 -0400
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Re: Is anyone REALLY thrilled?  Honestly?
>
> I do have a digital camera that is B&W and not RGB...and it is quite good.
> The problem with this is they aren't readily available, and aren't cheap.
> It's a niche market, so they're going to be expensive.