Digital BW, The Print

Steve,

You wrote:

>...
>...the print's life
>expectancy, while not irrelevant, is not my primary concern at this
>point.
>... question: is there a significant difference in
>the "quality" of the output between a well produced PS quadtone using
>the standard Epson inks (1280) and one of the systems using dedicated
>quadtone inks?  In short, is it worth dedicating the 1200 to B&W and
>installing either MIS or Pieziographic inks?

A perfectly-profiled 1280 with Epson dye ink can make B&W prints that look
very good -- in some light and for a little while.  However, even if you get
the cross-overs/color tints out of the system when the print is fresh, with
differential fade of the dyes there will be color shifts.  Also, the photo
will suffer from "metamerism" -- tone shifts as the display life is changed.

Probably most of us have gone through the drill of trying to use color inks
for B&W.  The 2200 might make the grade, but until I have seen the results
of long-term fade tests (which I, among others, are doing) I'm going to
remain a bit skeptical that Epson has entirely solved the problem.

Actually, a big factor you might want to consider is cost.  At least with
the MIS ink, the cost is very low compared to Epson inks -- especially if
you buy bulk ink and either load carts yourself or use a continuous inking
system.

So, a spare printer with quads might make experimenting with digital photos
both more satisfying and less expensive.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com

Paul -

If I follow, there are 3 considerations: tonal integrity, longevity, 
and price. No doubt, dye inks are a poor solution with respect to 
longevity and price. If, however, we were to use a color inkset with 
excellent longevity and value, then the question boils down to tonal 
integrity. 

Perhaps I can re-state the question: Given pigmented inkset of 
comparable economy and longevity, what is the compelling reason to 
favor quadtone printing done with 4 or more inks, versus 
the "virtual" or "simulated" quadtone available through Photoshop ?

Thanks !

- Ken Lee



> A perfectly-profiled 1280 with Epson dye ink can make B&W prints 
that look
> very good -- in some light and for a little while.  However, even 
if you get
> the cross-overs/color tints out of the system when the print is 
fresh, with
> differential fade of the dyes there will be color shifts.  Also, 
the photo
> will suffer from "metamerism" -- tone shifts as the display life is 
changed.
> 
> Probably most of us have gone through the drill of trying to use 
color inks
> for B&W.  The 2200 might make the grade, but until I have seen the 
results
> of long-term fade tests (which I, among others, are doing) I'm 
going to
> remain a bit skeptical that Epson has entirely solved the problem.
> 
> Actually, a big factor you might want to consider is cost.  At 
least with
> the MIS ink, the cost is very low compared to Epson inks -- 
especially if
> you buy bulk ink and either load carts yourself or use a continuous 
inking
> system.
> 
> So, a spare printer with quads might make experimenting with 
digital photos

> both more satisfying and less expensive.
> 
> Paul
> http://www.PaulRoark.com

If you print with color inks, sooner or later one of those inks will
begin to fade. You will then get a color cast in your print.  And don't
believe what you read about longevity, these inks can and do fade very
fast in certain locations, and heat/light/humidity conditions.... The
2000P printer inks displayed very noticeable fading in 6 months in a
west window in a photographic studio in Mayville North Dakota. And they
were supposed to last a hundred years with no noticeable fading.


J

heliar333 wrote:

> 
> Paul -
> 
> If I follow, there are 3 considerations: tonal integrity, longevity,
> and price. No doubt, dye inks are a poor solution with respect to
> longevity and price. If, however, we were to use a color inkset with
> excellent longevity and value, then the question boils down to tonal
> integrity.
> 
> Perhaps I can re-state the question: Given pigmented inkset of
> comparable economy and longevity, what is the compelling reason to
> favor quadtone printing done with 4 or more inks, versus
> the "virtual" or "simulated" quadtone available through Photoshop ?
> 
> Thanks !
> 
> - Ken Lee
> 
> > A perfectly-profiled 1280 with Epson dye ink can make B&W prints
> that look
> > very good -- in some light and for a little while.  However, even
> if you get
> > the cross-overs/color tints out of the system when the print is
> fresh, with
> > differential fade of the dyes there will be color shifts.  Also,
> the photo
> > will suffer from "metamerism" -- tone shifts as the display life is
> changed.
> >
> > Probably most of us have gone through the drill of trying to use
> color inks
> > for B&W.  The 2200 might make the grade, but until I have seen the
> results
> > of long-term fade tests (which I, among others, are doing) I'm
> going to
> > remain a bit skeptical that Epson has entirely solved the problem.
> >
> > Actually, a big factor you might want to consider is cost.  At
> least with
> > the MIS ink, the cost is very low compared to Epson inks --
> especially if
> > you buy bulk ink and either load carts yourself or use a continuous
> inking
> > system.
> >
> > So, a spare printer with quads might make experimenting with
> digital photos
> > both more satisfying and less expensive.
> >
> > Paul
> > http://www.PaulRoark.com
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
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Ken,

I use the third-party pigments from MIS or MediaStreet.  Bought in bulk,
these are very cheap and, for my uses, very good.  I tried to do B&W with
the Gen3 pigs (relatively weak yellow in Gen3 has been upgraded in Gen4),
and found the tone shifts unacceptable.

I now have a fade test going with Epson 2200 and PiezoTone-selenium test
strips in the fader.  The third spot in the fader is a test strip printed
with MIS archival pigments, but with the new, tougher yellow (same as the
Gen4 yellow, I believe) and the MIS FS/VM black (the best I've found).  So,
the best of the 3rd party pigments are up against the new UltraChrome inks
(best combination of color and stability yet) and PiezoTone-selenium quad
(best quad midtone).

One thing I want to see is if these color inksets still have unacceptable
color shifts due to differential fade.

It is way to early to draw any conclusions -- only 100 hours now.  At this
point, both the UltraChrome and PiezoTone 50% patches show a 0.01 tone
shift, but that could be less, since that is the smallest amount the X-Rite
densitometer can read.  The MIS Arc pigs show a 0.03 drop in magenta.  While
it's too early to make any conclusions, this is a bad sign.  It may be
shifting green.

So, stay tuned.  The fade test will reach 300 hours at the end of next week.
That is typically where the old warm-shifting quads started to stabilize
into a predictable, linear fade pattern.  So, it may be a place where we'll
have a much better basis for some judgments about tone stability.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com

____________________________________________

  -----Original Message-----
  From: heliar333 [mailto:heliar@...]
  Sent: Thursday, September 12, 2002 8:18 AM
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] PS Quadtones vs. a dedicated system


  Paul -

  If I follow, there are 3 considerations: tonal integrity, longevity,
  and price. No doubt, dye inks are a poor solution with respect to
  longevity and price. If, however, we were to use a color inkset with
  excellent longevity and value, then the question boils down to tonal
  integrity.

  Perhaps I can re-state the question: Given pigmented inkset of
  comparable economy and longevity, what is the compelling reason to
  favor quadtone printing done with 4 or more inks, versus
  the "virtual" or "simulated" quadtone available through Photoshop ?

  Thanks !

  - Ken Lee



  > A perfectly-profiled 1280 with Epson dye ink can make B&W prints
  that look
  > very good -- in some light and for a little while.  However, even
  if you get
  > the cross-overs/color tints out of the system when the print is
  fresh, with
  > differential fade of the dyes there will be color shifts.  Also,
  the photo
  > will suffer from "metamerism" -- tone shifts as the display life is
  changed.
  >
  > Probably most of us have gone through the drill of trying to use
  color inks
  > for B&W.  The 2200 might make the grade, but until I have seen the
  results
  > of long-term fade tests (which I, among others, are doing) I'm
  going to
  > remain a bit skeptical that Epson has entirely solved the problem.
  >
  > Actually, a big factor you might want to consider is cost.  At
  least with
  > the MIS ink, the cost is very low compared to Epson inks --
  especially if
  > you buy bulk ink and either load carts yourself or use a continuous
  inking
  > system.
  >
  > So, a spare printer with quads might make experimenting with
  digital photos
  > both more satisfying and less expensive.
  >
  > Paul
  > http://www.PaulRoark.com


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  Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:

  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

  If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.

  Please follow these basic guidelines:
  - Include your full name with your message.
  - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
  - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
  - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
  - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
"flames."
  - Complete your Yahoo profile.
  - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.




  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

----- Original Message -----

From: "voranado" <skobrin@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, September 12, 2002 6:24 AM
Subject: [Digital BW] PS Quadtones vs. a dedicated system


> I have been lurking on the list for a while and have a relatively
> basic question that I have not seen discussed.  (If it has been well
> covered in the past, I would appreciate it if someone would let me
> know off-line at kobrins@....)
>
> I have been scanning negatives (typically Ilford fp4 or 5) into PS
> for a few years and printing PS tri- or quad tones, most recently on
> an Epson 1200.  While I am reasonably satisfied with the results, I
> am about to upgrade the printer to a 1280.  Most of the discussion of
> dedicated quadtone inks such as MIS or Piezio on the list seems to
> revolve around longevity.  I am a rank amateur and the print's life
> expectancy, while not irrelevant, is not my primary concern at this
> point.  Now the question: is there a significant difference in
> the "quality" of the output between a well produced PS quadtone using
> the standard Epson inks (1280) and one of the systems using dedicated
> quadtone inks?

Steve,

Yes! Especially if you want a neutral or close to neutral print free of
unwanted color crossovers. This assumes a matte paper. For glossy paper then
the grayscale pigment inks are not appropriate.

> In short, is it worth dedicating the 1200 to B&W and
> installing either MIS or Pieziographic inks?

I had terrible luck with the 1200 and the gray scale inks. I really cannot
recommend it for that purpose. My two 1280s have been quite good.

> I certainly have a long
> way to go in improving my PS workflow and a lot of experimenting to
> do with papers before I am even near getting the best possible output
> from Epson inks.  On the other hand, as I will have a spare printer
> after the upgrade, this is an opportunity to move to a dedicated
> system.  (I have also thought about a 2200, but given the 1280
> rebate, that is a lot more money at this point.) I realize this is a
> very subjective issue, but any help would be appreciated.  Again, I
> apologize if this has been covered previously, and if so just aim me
> in the right direction.

It is very subjective and the odds are not high that you will get exactly
what you want on the first try. The opinons are still out on the 2200 though
so keep that in mind. A 1280 for B&W would be a good way to go at today's
pricing.

Martin Wesley

heliar333 wrote:

>P
>Perhaps I can re-state the question: Given pigmented inkset of 
>comparable economy and longevity, what is the compelling reason to 
>favor quadtone printing done with 4 or more inks, versus 
>the "virtual" or "simulated" quadtone available through Photoshop ?
>
>  
>
True Neutral Prints without color crossover/metamerism..


Keith



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

So far a lot of black inks have passed the discussion on what delivers the
best density reading and stays there when exposed to light. On the 9000 list
some people have observed that Indelible pigment black has a higher density
(eye measurements AFAIK) than Ultrachrome and Generations 4 Enh. black. I
have no personal experience and no knowledge of the Indelible black ink. Not
whether it is pure pigment either.
Anyone observed that high density too ?

Ernst

Ernst,

>... On the 9000 list
>some people have observed that Indelible pigment black has a higher density
>(eye measurements AFAIK) than Ultrachrome and Generations 4 Enh. black. ...

There is a fade test that compares Indelible to MIS FS-K and Gen4-K in the
Files section of this forum.
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/>

Follow the path: Files > Ink Sets > MIS.

This is just a 100 hour test to verify that the sample I was given was the
true stuff - it was.  Some could not beleive after all the hype that
Indelible black appeared to be a hybrid dye-pigment ink that faded and
warmed substantially more than FS-K - it does.

You can download the image and measure the extent of fading and warming with
the Photoshop eyedropper.

The posted results are consistent with a longer 300 hour fade test that is
not posted.

On EAM paper, Gen4 is darker than Indelible black, and Indelible is darker
than FS-K.  However, after 300 hours in the fader, MIS FS-K and Indelible
are about the same density.  300 hours is about how long it takes most
inksets to go through their initial warming phase.

Except for the UltraChrome black in a very initial test, all the black inks
that I have tested that are darker on EAM than FS-K fade and warm more.  As
the dyes fade away, it appears you end up -- at some point -- with a brown
black that is not darker, and ultimately probably lighter, than FS-K.  The
blacker the ink, the more apparent dye, and the worse the fading/warming.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com

Paul, you wrote:

> On EAM paper, Gen4 is darker than Indelible black, and Indelible is darker
> than FS-K.  However, after 300 hours in the fader, MIS FS-K and Indelible
> are about the same density.  300 hours is about how long it takes most
> inksets to go through their initial warming phase.
>
> Except for the UltraChrome black in a very initial test, all the black
inks
> that I have tested that are darker on EAM than FS-K fade and warm more.
As
> the dyes fade away, it appears you end up -- at some point -- with a brown
> black that is not darker, and ultimately probably lighter, than FS-K.  The
> blacker the ink, the more apparent dye, and the worse the fading/warming.

Thank you.

Indelible black can be put on the shelf as well then.

If I remember it correctly, you will know what Ultrachrome does by the end
of the week.
Taken from 9600 or 10600 carts it will not be that expensive for the black
of a quad set.

Ernst

Ernst,

>... you will know what Ultrachrome does by the end of the week.

Well, I'll be at 300 hours in the fader -- a good point to see what is
happening -- on 9/19.  So, we'll know with some certainty what the fade and
warming situation is then.

I've also found the particle size -- its smaller than the traditional quads.
So, no problem there.

The big question is probably viscosity.  Inkjets are sensitive to this.  It
will take some actual trials to see about that issue, and a couple people
are going to try it reasonably soon.  I don't think one could damage a
printer by any viscosity difference there may be.  So, I'd guess visual
examination of test strips (with resolution charts) would tell us what we
need to know.

>Taken from 9600 or 10600 carts it will not be that expensive for the black
>of a quad set.

Yes, it's not as cheap as MIS FS-K, but it is still within reason.

I'm not sure I'd go for the 10600 inks.  That machine uses a larger nozzle
size.  It is more likely to have a viscosity or other difference than the 4
picoliter 9600.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com

From what I see in your fade tests is that for someone making the 
move to the digital darkroom the MIS FS-N seems to have the better 
stability. I am wanting a set of inks that will provide for "salable" 
prints. I know nothing will replace a wet darkroom print at this 
point in terms of image stability. But I would like something close. 
In the wet darkroom I am used to using Polycontrast Fine Art and 
Polycontrast RC.

Though since I am testing things out at this point I am hesitant in 
making the $150 investment in the PZ drivers (I may decide that the 
wet darkroom is the best way go after the tests). Based on your 
experience with the info provided will the MIS-VM do what I am 
looking for? Your curves for this ink seem interesting (as well as 
your images on the website). The best of all worlds.

Thanks for helping the beginner...

Chip



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> Ken,
> 
> I use the third-party pigments from MIS or MediaStreet.  Bought in 
bulk,
> these are very cheap and, for my uses, very good.  I tried to do 
B&W with
> the Gen3 pigs (relatively weak yellow in Gen3 has been upgraded in 
Gen4),
> and found the tone shifts unacceptable.
> 
> I now have a fade test going with Epson 2200 and PiezoTone-selenium 
test
> strips in the fader.  The third spot in the fader is a test strip 
printed
> with MIS archival pigments, but with the new, tougher yellow (same 
as the
> Gen4 yellow, I believe) and the MIS FS/VM black (the best I've 
found).  So,
> the best of the 3rd party pigments are up against the new 
UltraChrome inks
> (best combination of color and stability yet) and PiezoTone-
selenium quad
> (best quad midtone).
> 
> One thing I want to see is if these color inksets still have 
unacceptable
> color shifts due to differential fade.
> 
> It is way to early to draw any conclusions -- only 100 hours now.  
At this
> point, both the UltraChrome and PiezoTone 50% patches show a 0.01 
tone
> shift, but that could be less, since that is the smallest amount 
the X-Rite
> densitometer can read.  The MIS Arc pigs show a 0.03 drop in 
magenta.  While
> it's too early to make any conclusions, this is a bad sign.  It may 
be
> shifting green.
> 
> So, stay tuned.  The fade test will reach 300 hours at the end of 
next week.
> That is typically where the old warm-shifting quads started to 
stabilize
> into a predictable, linear fade pattern.  So, it may be a place 
where we'll
> have a much better basis for some judgments about tone stability.
> 
> Paul
> http://www.PaulRoark.com
> 
> ____________________________________________
>   -----Original Message-----
>   From: heliar333 [mailto:heliar@a...]
>   Sent: Thursday, September 12, 2002 8:18 AM
>   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...
>   Subject: Re: [Digital BW] PS Quadtones vs. a dedicated system
> 
> 
>   Paul -
> 
>   If I follow, there are 3 considerations: tonal integrity, 
longevity,
>   and price. No doubt, dye inks are a poor solution with respect to
>   longevity and price. If, however, we were to use a color inkset 
with
>   excellent longevity and value, then the question boils down to 
tonal
>   integrity.
> 
>   Perhaps I can re-state the question: Given pigmented inkset of
>   comparable economy and longevity, what is the compelling reason to
>   favor quadtone printing done with 4 or more inks, versus
>   the "virtual" or "simulated" quadtone available through 
Photoshop ?
> 
>   Thanks !
> 
>   - Ken Lee
> 
> 
> 
>   > A perfectly-profiled 1280 with Epson dye ink can make B&W prints
>   that look
>   > very good -- in some light and for a little while.  However, 
even
>   if you get
>   > the cross-overs/color tints out of the system when the print is
>   fresh, with
>   > differential fade of the dyes there will be color shifts.  Also,
>   the photo
>   > will suffer from "metamerism" -- tone shifts as the display 
life is
>   changed.
>   >
>   > Probably most of us have gone through the drill of trying to use
>   color inks
>   > for B&W.  The 2200 might make the grade, but until I have seen 
the
>   results
>   > of long-term fade tests (which I, among others, are doing) I'm
>   going to
>   > remain a bit skeptical that Epson has entirely solved the 
problem.
>   >
>   > Actually, a big factor you might want to consider is cost.  At
>   least with
>   > the MIS ink, the cost is very low compared to Epson inks --
>   especially if
>   > you buy bulk ink and either load carts yourself or use a 
continuous
>   inking
>   > system.
>   >
>   > So, a spare printer with quads might make experimenting with
>   digital photos
>   > both more satisfying and less expensive.
>   >
>   > Paul
>   > http://www.PaulRoark.com
> 
> 
>         Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>               ADVERTISEMENT
> 
> 
> 
> 
>   Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, 
Polls and
> other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
>   http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
>   If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you 
wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting 
this same
> page.
> 
>   Please follow these basic guidelines:
>   - Include your full name with your message.
>   - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
>   - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier 
messages to keep
> them short.
>   - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject 
header.
>   - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
> &amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot;
>   - Complete your Yahoo profile.
>   - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the 
various
> resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
>   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of 
Service.

> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Chip,

Depending on which printer you're using, either the FS-N or the VM inksets
are probably good choices.  If you have an 1160 or 3000, you can use the
FS-N with the Epson driver.  At $150 the Piezo driver is not a bad deal.  If
you want to try a lot of different papers, the profiles help you do this.

Good luck.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com


___________________

  -----Original Message-----
  From: photo_bear_nova [mailto:jlenkiewicz@...]
  Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2002 4:39 PM
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] PS Quadtones vs. a dedicated system(Attn: P.
Roark)


  From what I see in your fade tests is that for someone making the
  move to the digital darkroom the MIS FS-N seems to have the better
  stability. I am wanting a set of inks that will provide for "salable"
  prints. I know nothing will replace a wet darkroom print at this
  point in terms of image stability. But I would like something close.
  In the wet darkroom I am used to using Polycontrast Fine Art and
  Polycontrast RC.

  Though since I am testing things out at this point I am hesitant in
  making the $150 investment in the PZ drivers (I may decide that the
  wet darkroom is the best way go after the tests). Based on your
  experience with the info provided will the MIS-VM do what I am
  looking for? Your curves for this ink seem interesting (as well as
  your images on the website). The best of all worlds.

  Thanks for helping the beginner...

  Chip



  --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Paul Roark"
  <paul.roark@v...> wrote:
  > Ken,
  >
  > I use the third-party pigments from MIS or MediaStreet.  Bought in
  bulk,
  > these are very cheap and, for my uses, very good.  I tried to do
  B&W with
  > the Gen3 pigs (relatively weak yellow in Gen3 has been upgraded in
  Gen4),
  > and found the tone shifts unacceptable.
  >
  > I now have a fade test going with Epson 2200 and PiezoTone-selenium
  test
  > strips in the fader.  The third spot in the fader is a test strip
  printed
  > with MIS archival pigments, but with the new, tougher yellow (same
  as the
  > Gen4 yellow, I believe) and the MIS FS/VM black (the best I've
  found).  So,
  > the best of the 3rd party pigments are up against the new
  UltraChrome inks
  > (best combination of color and stability yet) and PiezoTone-
  selenium quad
  > (best quad midtone).
  >
  > One thing I want to see is if these color inksets still have
  unacceptable
  > color shifts due to differential fade.
  >
  > It is way to early to draw any conclusions -- only 100 hours now.
  At this
  > point, both the UltraChrome and PiezoTone 50% patches show a 0.01
  tone
  > shift, but that could be less, since that is the smallest amount
  the X-Rite
  > densitometer can read.  The MIS Arc pigs show a 0.03 drop in
  magenta.  While
  > it's too early to make any conclusions, this is a bad sign.  It may
  be
  > shifting green.
  >
  > So, stay tuned.  The fade test will reach 300 hours at the end of
  next week.
  > That is typically where the old warm-shifting quads started to
  stabilize
  > into a predictable, linear fade pattern.  So, it may be a place
  where we'll
  > have a much better basis for some judgments about tone stability.
  >
  > Paul
  > http://www.PaulRoark.com
  >
  > ____________________________________________
  >   -----Original Message-----
  >   From: heliar333 [mailto:heliar@a...]
  >   Sent: Thursday, September 12, 2002 8:18 AM
  >   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...
  >   Subject: Re: [Digital BW] PS Quadtones vs. a dedicated system
  >
  >
  >   Paul -
  >
  >   If I follow, there are 3 considerations: tonal integrity,
  longevity,
  >   and price. No doubt, dye inks are a poor solution with respect to
  >   longevity and price. If, however, we were to use a color inkset
  with
  >   excellent longevity and value, then the question boils down to
  tonal
  >   integrity.
  >
  >   Perhaps I can re-state the question: Given pigmented inkset of
  >   comparable economy and longevity, what is the compelling reason to
  >   favor quadtone printing done with 4 or more inks, versus
  >   the "virtual" or "simulated" quadtone available through
  Photoshop ?
  >
  >   Thanks !
  >
  >   - Ken Lee
  >
  >
  >
  >   > A perfectly-profiled 1280 with Epson dye ink can make B&W prints
  >   that look
  >   > very good -- in some light and for a little while.  However,
  even
  >   if you get
  >   > the cross-overs/color tints out of the system when the print is
  >   fresh, with
  >   > differential fade of the dyes there will be color shifts.  Also,
  >   the photo
  >   > will suffer from "metamerism" -- tone shifts as the display
  life is
  >   changed.
  >   >
  >   > Probably most of us have gone through the drill of trying to use
  >   color inks
  >   > for B&W.  The 2200 might make the grade, but until I have seen
  the
  >   results
  >   > of long-term fade tests (which I, among others, are doing) I'm
  >   going to
  >   > remain a bit skeptical that Epson has entirely solved the
  problem.
  >   >
  >   > Actually, a big factor you might want to consider is cost.  At
  >   least with
  >   > the MIS ink, the cost is very low compared to Epson inks --
  >   especially if
  >   > you buy bulk ink and either load carts yourself or use a
  continuous
  >   inking
  >   > system.
  >   >
  >   > So, a spare printer with quads might make experimenting with
  >   digital photos
  >   > both more satisfying and less expensive.
  >   >
  >   > Paul
  >   > http://www.PaulRoark.com
  >
  >
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  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thanks for the reply. I should have indictated that I have a 1270 
that I will convert to the process....

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> Chip,
> 
> Depending on which printer you're using, either the FS-N or the VM 
inksets
> are probably good choices.  If you have an 1160 or 3000, you can 
use the
> FS-N with the Epson driver.  At $150 the Piezo driver is not a bad 
deal.  If
> you want to try a lot of different papers, the profiles help you do 
this.
> 
> Good luck.
> 
> Paul
> http://www.PaulRoark.com
> 
> 
> ___________________
>   -----Original Message-----
>   From: photo_bear_nova [mailto:jlenkiewicz@c...]
>   Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2002 4:39 PM
>   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...
>   Subject: Re: [Digital BW] PS Quadtones vs. a dedicated system
(Attn: P.
> Roark)
> 
> 
>   From what I see in your fade tests is that for someone making the
>   move to the digital darkroom the MIS FS-N seems to have the better
>   stability. I am wanting a set of inks that will provide 
for "salable"
>   prints. I know nothing will replace a wet darkroom print at this
>   point in terms of image stability. But I would like something 
close.
>   In the wet darkroom I am used to using Polycontrast Fine Art and
>   Polycontrast RC.
> 
>   Though since I am testing things out at this point I am hesitant 
in
>   making the $150 investment in the PZ drivers (I may decide that 
the
>   wet darkroom is the best way go after the tests). Based on your
>   experience with the info provided will the MIS-VM do what I am
>   looking for? Your curves for this ink seem interesting (as well as
>   your images on the website). The best of all worlds.
> 
>   Thanks for helping the beginner...
> 
>   Chip
> 
> 
> 
>   --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Paul Roark"
>   <paul.roark@v...> wrote:
>   > Ken,
>   >
>   > I use the third-party pigments from MIS or MediaStreet.  Bought 
in
>   bulk,
>   > these are very cheap and, for my uses, very good.  I tried to do
>   B&W with
>   > the Gen3 pigs (relatively weak yellow in Gen3 has been upgraded 
in
>   Gen4),
>   > and found the tone shifts unacceptable.
>   >
>   > I now have a fade test going with Epson 2200 and PiezoTone-
selenium
>   test
>   > strips in the fader.  The third spot in the fader is a test 
strip
>   printed
>   > with MIS archival pigments, but with the new, tougher yellow 
(same
>   as the
>   > Gen4 yellow, I believe) and the MIS FS/VM black (the best I've
>   found).  So,
>   > the best of the 3rd party pigments are up against the new
>   UltraChrome inks
>   > (best combination of color and stability yet) and PiezoTone-
>   selenium quad
>   > (best quad midtone).
>   >
>   > One thing I want to see is if these color inksets still have
>   unacceptable
>   > color shifts due to differential fade.
>   >
>   > It is way to early to draw any conclusions -- only 100 hours 
now.
>   At this
>   > point, both the UltraChrome and PiezoTone 50% patches show a 
0.01
>   tone
>   > shift, but that could be less, since that is the smallest amount
>   the X-Rite
>   > densitometer can read.  The MIS Arc pigs show a 0.03 drop in
>   magenta.  While
>   > it's too early to make any conclusions, this is a bad sign.  It 
may
>   be
>   > shifting green.
>   >
>   > So, stay tuned.  The fade test will reach 300 hours at the end 
of
>   next week.
>   > That is typically where the old warm-shifting quads started to
>   stabilize
>   > into a predictable, linear fade pattern.  So, it may be a place
>   where we'll
>   > have a much better basis for some judgments about tone 
stability.
>   >
>   > Paul
>   > http://www.PaulRoark.com
>   >
>   > ____________________________________________
>   >   -----Original Message-----
>   >   From: heliar333 [mailto:heliar@a...]
>   >   Sent: Thursday, September 12, 2002 8:18 AM
>   >   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...
>   >   Subject: Re: [Digital BW] PS Quadtones vs. a dedicated system
>   >
>   >
>   >   Paul -
>   >
>   >   If I follow, there are 3 considerations: tonal integrity,
>   longevity,
>   >   and price. No doubt, dye inks are a poor solution with 
respect to
>   >   longevity and price. If, however, we were to use a color 
inkset
>   with
>   >   excellent longevity and value, then the question boils down to
>   tonal
>   >   integrity.
>   >
>   >   Perhaps I can re-state the question: Given pigmented inkset of
>   >   comparable economy and longevity, what is the compelling 
reason to
>   >   favor quadtone printing done with 4 or more inks, versus
>   >   the "virtual" or "simulated" quadtone available through
>   Photoshop ?
>   >
>   >   Thanks !
>   >
>   >   - Ken Lee
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >   > A perfectly-profiled 1280 with Epson dye ink can make B&W 
prints
>   >   that look
>   >   > very good -- in some light and for a little while.  However,
>   even
>   >   if you get
>   >   > the cross-overs/color tints out of the system when the 
print is
>   >   fresh, with
>   >   > differential fade of the dyes there will be color shifts.  
Also,
>   >   the photo
>   >   > will suffer from "metamerism" -- tone shifts as the display
>   life is
>   >   changed.
>   >   >
>   >   > Probably most of us have gone through the drill of trying 
to use
>   >   color inks
>   >   > for B&W.  The 2200 might make the grade, but until I have 
seen
>   the
>   >   results
>   >   > of long-term fade tests (which I, among others, are doing) 
I'm
>   >   going to
>   >   > remain a bit skeptical that Epson has entirely solved the
>   problem.
>   >   >
>   >   > Actually, a big factor you might want to consider is cost.  
At
>   >   least with
>   >   > the MIS ink, the cost is very low compared to Epson inks --
>   >   especially if
>   >   > you buy bulk ink and either load carts yourself or use a
>   continuous
>   >   inking
>   >   > system.
>   >   >
>   >   > So, a spare printer with quads might make experimenting with
>   >   digital photos
>   >   > both more satisfying and less expensive.
>   >   >
>   >   > Paul
>   >   > http://www.PaulRoark.com
>   >
>   >
>   >         Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>   >               ADVERTISEMENT
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >   Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks,
>   Polls and
>   > other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>   >
>   >   http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>   >
>   >   If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or 
you
>   wish to
>   > unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting
>   this same
>   > page.
>   >
>   >   Please follow these basic guidelines:
>   >   - Include your full name with your message.
>   >   - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
>   >   - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier
>   messages to keep
>   > them short.
>   >   - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the 
subject
>   header.
>   >   - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks 
or
>   > &amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot;
>   >   - Complete your Yahoo profile.
>   >   - Before posting a question, search the message archives and 
the
>   various
>   > resources on the homepage.
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
>   Service.
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
> 
>         Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>               ADVERTISEMENT
> 
> 
> 
> 
>   Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, 
Polls and
> other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
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>   http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
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> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting 
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> page.
> 
>   Please follow these basic guidelines:
>   - Include your full name with your message.
>   - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
>   - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier 
messages to keep
> them short.
>   - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject 
header.
>   - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
> &amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot;
>   - Complete your Yahoo profile.
>   - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the 
various
> resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
>   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of 
Service.

> 
> 
> 
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