Digital BW, The Print

I have been struggling with what to do with digital black and white
printing (I'm 
a silver printer at heart) for a long time and with the advent of the
new cone 
piezotone carbon sepia and selenium inks I will probably sell my
darkroom 
equipment in the near future.  the tone of these inks is nothing
short of 
exquisite on the Ham. Photo Rag 308 and the Kodak Ultima Satin.  The 
Kodak paper allows the inks to dry and the ink doesn't rub off but
this smooth 
surface satin paper does need to be sprayed or brushed with a
lacquer.  and 
of course the Photo Rag 308 is awesome.

My 1280 printer is working well with these inks and I haven't
developed any 
serious clogs like I did with the original Piezo inks.  eleanor brown

Eleanor,

I am using the piezotone carbon sepia with Photo Rag
308 and I'm not seeing any real brown tones. Are you
getting really brown prints or are they just warm
black & whites?

Evelyn
--- "eleanor77027 <elliebrown@...>"
<elliebrown@...> wrote:
> I have been struggling with what to do with digital
> black and white
> printing (I'm 
> a silver printer at heart) for a long time and with
> the advent of the
> new cone 
> piezotone carbon sepia and selenium inks I will
> probably sell my
> darkroom 
> equipment in the near future.  the tone of these
> inks is nothing
> short of 
> exquisite on the Ham. Photo Rag 308 and the Kodak
> Ultima Satin.  The 
> Kodak paper allows the inks to dry and the ink
> doesn't rub off but
> this smooth 
> surface satin paper does need to be sprayed or
> brushed with a
> lacquer.  and 
> of course the Photo Rag 308 is awesome.
> 
> My 1280 printer is working well with these inks and
> I haven't
> developed any 
> serious clogs like I did with the original Piezo
> inks.  eleanor brown
> 
> 


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I looked at the Cone site for the carbon sepia patch, and it looked more
like a fairly warm print to me  - with all of the vagaries that go with a
web image.  With the MIS VM-S inks and the Paul Roark or Keith Krebs curves
the print goes from a true sepia to a neutral b&w, with excellent tonal
range, and on Epson EEM paper yet.  Between that and Portra and Polaroid PN
film, my darkroom is history...

Regards,

  --Ken Carney
    www.kencarney.com

----- Original Message -----
From: "Evelyn Grant" <ingamom@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 05, 2003 7:48 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Cone Sepia and Selenium inks


> Eleanor,
>
> I am using the piezotone carbon sepia with Photo Rag
> 308 and I'm not seeing any real brown tones. Are you
> getting really brown prints or are they just warm
> black & whites?
>
> Evelyn
> --- "eleanor77027 <elliebrown@...>"
> <elliebrown@...> wrote:
> > I have been struggling with what to do with digital
> > black and white
> > printing (I'm
> > a silver printer at heart) for a long time and with
> > the advent of the
> > new cone
> > piezotone carbon sepia and selenium inks I will
> > probably sell my
> > darkroom
> > equipment in the near future.  the tone of these
> > inks is nothing
> > short of
> > exquisite on the Ham. Photo Rag 308 and the Kodak
> > Ultima Satin.  The
> > Kodak paper allows the inks to dry and the ink
> > doesn't rub off but
> > this smooth
> > surface satin paper does need to be sprayed or
> > brushed with a
> > lacquer.  and
> > of course the Photo Rag 308 is awesome.
> >
> > My 1280 printer is working well with these inks and
> > I haven't
> > developed any
> > serious clogs like I did with the original Piezo
> > inks.  eleanor brown
> >
> >
>
>
> __________________________________________________
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>

Ken,

--- Ken Carney <kcarney1@...> wrote:
> I looked at the Cone site for the carbon sepia
> patch, and it looked more
> like a fairly warm print to me  - with all of the
> vagaries that go with a
> web image.  With the MIS VM-S inks and the Paul
> Roark or Keith Krebs curves
> the print goes from a true sepia to a neutral b&w,
> with excellent tonal
> range, and on Epson EEM paper yet.  Between that and
> Portra and Polaroid PN
> film, my darkroom is history...
> 
> Regards,
> 
>   --Ken Carney
>     www.kencarney.com
> >
> 
> 


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Ken,

Thanks for your reply. It's great to get confirmation
that I'm seeing things correctly :). Looks like once I
run thru these Cone sepia inks I'll be switching to
the MIS VM-S inks. I kind of feel like we're all being
misled by Cone calling these inks sepia. They look
more like what I used to get in the darkroom on
Kodak's Ektalure paper before I toned it. I have been
so satisfied with their quadtones for black & white
that I just assumed I'd be thrilled with the sepia
ink. Ah well, live & learn. 

Evelyn

--- Ken Carney <kcarney1@...> wrote:
> I looked at the Cone site for the carbon sepia
> patch, and it looked more
> like a fairly warm print to me  - with all of the
> vagaries that go with a
> web image.  With the MIS VM-S inks and the Paul
> Roark or Keith Krebs curves
> the print goes from a true sepia to a neutral b&w,
> with excellent tonal
> range, and on Epson EEM paper yet.  Between that and
> Portra and Polaroid PN
> film, my darkroom is history...
> 
> Regards,
> 
>   --Ken Carney
>     www.kencarney.com
> 

> 
> 


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Evelyn the tone of my Cone carbon sepia prints on the Photo Rag 308 is 
almost identical to the tone of my silver prints printed on Agfa Classic toned 
on Kodak Brown Toner.  The carbon sepia tone is the most beautiful brown 
tone I've ever seen--a rich very warm brown that is not plagued with the 
greenish/yellow/orange tint of many sepia prints done with other inks/media/
toners, etc.  eleanor


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Evelyn Grant <
ingamom@y...> wrote:

> Eleanor,
> 
> I am using the piezotone carbon sepia with Photo Rag
> 308 and I'm not seeing any real brown tones. Are you
> getting really brown prints or are they just warm
> black & whites?
> 
> Evelyn
> --- "eleanor77027 <elliebrown@a...>"
> <elliebrown@a...> wrote:
> > I have been struggling with what to do with digital
> > black and white
> > printing (I'm 
> > a silver printer at heart) for a long time and with
> > the advent of the
> > new cone 
> > piezotone carbon sepia and selenium inks I will
> > probably sell my
> > darkroom 
> > equipment in the near future.  the tone of these
> > inks is nothing
> > short of 
> > exquisite on the Ham. Photo Rag 308 and the Kodak
> > Ultima Satin.  The 
> > Kodak paper allows the inks to dry and the ink
> > doesn't rub off but
> > this smooth 
> > surface satin paper does need to be sprayed or
> > brushed with a
> > lacquer.  and 
> > of course the Photo Rag 308 is awesome.
> > 
> > My 1280 printer is working well with these inks and
> > I haven't
> > developed any 
> > serious clogs like I did with the original Piezo
> > inks.  eleanor brown
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
> http://mailplus.yahoo.com

Thanks for the reply Eleanor. I'm just not getting any
brown tones at all with the carbon sepia inks. Just
very warm b&w. I'm not familiar with the Agfa Classic,
in the darkroom I used Kodak Ektalure paper and it
would tone a gorgeous golden brown with brown toner.
I'm going to try the MIS VMS inks and see what I get
from them. Thanks again.
Evelyn
--- "eleanor77027 <elliebrown@...>"
<elliebrown@...> wrote:
> Evelyn the tone of my Cone carbon sepia prints on
> the Photo Rag 308 is 
> almost identical to the tone of my silver prints
> printed on Agfa Classic toned 
> on Kodak Brown Toner.  The carbon sepia tone is the
> most beautiful brown 
> tone I've ever seen--a rich very warm brown that is
> not plagued with the 
> greenish/yellow/orange tint of many sepia prints
> done with other inks/media/
> toners, etc.  eleanor
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com,
> Evelyn Grant <
> ingamom@y...> wrote:
> > Eleanor,
> > 
> > I am using the piezotone carbon sepia with Photo
> Rag
> > 308 and I'm not seeing any real brown tones. Are
> you
> > getting really brown prints or are they just warm
> > black & whites?
> > 
> > Evelyn
> > --- "eleanor77027 <elliebrown@a...>"
> > <elliebrown@a...> wrote:
> > > I have been struggling with what to do with
> digital
> > > black and white
> > > printing (I'm 
> > > a silver printer at heart) for a long time and
> with
> > > the advent of the
> > > new cone 
> > > piezotone carbon sepia and selenium inks I will
> > > probably sell my
> > > darkroom 
> > > equipment in the near future.  the tone of these
> > > inks is nothing
> > > short of 
> > > exquisite on the Ham. Photo Rag 308 and the
> Kodak
> > > Ultima Satin.  The 
> > > Kodak paper allows the inks to dry and the ink
> > > doesn't rub off but
> > > this smooth 
> > > surface satin paper does need to be sprayed or
> > > brushed with a
> > > lacquer.  and 
> > > of course the Photo Rag 308 is awesome.
> > > 
> > > My 1280 printer is working well with these inks
> and
> > > I haven't
> > > developed any 
> > > serious clogs like I did with the original Piezo
> > > inks.  eleanor brown
> > > 
> > > 
> > 
> > 
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up
> now.
> > http://mailplus.yahoo.com
> 
> 


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I've seen full sepia ouput from the VM-Sepia set and it looks washed out to
me.  As I recall Paul Roark doesn't even use the full sepia curves...opting
instead for a curve which produces something much more like the Sepia tones.
The other advantage of the sepia piezotones is that they are much more
stable to fade and warm shift...being made from 100% pigment, unlike the VM
sets.

Robert

On 1/7/03 12:03 PM, "Evelyn Grant" <ingamom@...> wrote:

> Thanks for the reply Eleanor. I'm just not getting any
> brown tones at all with the carbon sepia inks. Just
> very warm b&w. I'm not familiar with the Agfa Classic,
> in the darkroom I used Kodak Ektalure paper and it
> would tone a gorgeous golden brown with brown toner.
> I'm going to try the MIS VMS inks and see what I get
> from them. Thanks again.
> Evelyn
> --- "eleanor77027 <elliebrown@...>"
> <elliebrown@...> wrote:
>> Evelyn the tone of my Cone carbon sepia prints on
>> the Photo Rag 308 is
>> almost identical to the tone of my silver prints
>> printed on Agfa Classic toned
>> on Kodak Brown Toner.  The carbon sepia tone is the
>> most beautiful brown
>> tone I've ever seen--a rich very warm brown that is
>> not plagued with the
>> greenish/yellow/orange tint of many sepia prints
>> done with other inks/media/
>> toners, etc.  eleanor
>> 
>> 
>> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com,
>> Evelyn Grant <
>> ingamom@y...> wrote:
>>> Eleanor,
>>> 
>>> I am using the piezotone carbon sepia with Photo
>> Rag
>>> 308 and I'm not seeing any real brown tones. Are
>> you
>>> getting really brown prints or are they just warm
>>> black & whites?
>>> 
>>> Evelyn
>>> --- "eleanor77027 <elliebrown@a...>"
>>> <elliebrown@a...> wrote:
>>>> I have been struggling with what to do with
>> digital
>>>> black and white
>>>> printing (I'm 
>>>> a silver printer at heart) for a long time and
>> with
>>>> the advent of the
>>>> new cone 
>>>> piezotone carbon sepia and selenium inks I will
>>>> probably sell my
>>>> darkroom 
>>>> equipment in the near future.  the tone of these
>>>> inks is nothing
>>>> short of 
>>>> exquisite on the Ham. Photo Rag 308 and the
>> Kodak
>>>> Ultima Satin.  The
>>>> Kodak paper allows the inks to dry and the ink
>>>> doesn't rub off but
>>>> this smooth 
>>>> surface satin paper does need to be sprayed or
>>>> brushed with a
>>>> lacquer.  and 
>>>> of course the Photo Rag 308 is awesome.
>>>> 
>>>> My 1280 printer is working well with these inks
>> and
>>>> I haven't
>>>> developed any 
>>>> serious clogs like I did with the original Piezo
>>>> inks.  eleanor brown
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> __________________________________________________
>>> Do you Yahoo!?
>>> Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up
>> now.
>>> http://mailplus.yahoo.com
>> 
>> 
> 
> 
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> 
>

Well Robert, now you have given me doubts about the VM
sepia  set. But I feel I have to give them a try since
the inks from Cone are no where near sepia. I just
hope I don't end up with a bunch of useless ink and
going back to color inks to get sepia.
Evelyn
--- Robert Morrison <rmorrison@...> wrote:
> I've seen full sepia ouput from the VM-Sepia set and
> it looks washed out to
> me.  As I recall Paul Roark doesn't even use the
> full sepia curves...opting
> instead for a curve which produces something much
> more like the Sepia tones.
> The other advantage of the sepia piezotones is that
> they are much more
> stable to fade and warm shift...being made from 100%
> pigment, unlike the VM
> sets.
> 
> Robert
> 


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Evelyn..
I recently switched from the "standard" MIS VM a-la-Roark to the "Sepia"
version...I love it!!..I'm doing alot of restorations, and it seems to fit
the bill quite nicely, and I can still have neutral black and white when I
want/need it..It's like having my cake and eating it too!

Eddie Wiseman
----- Original Message -----
From: "Evelyn Grant" <ingamom@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 07, 2003 3:39 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Cone Sepia and Selenium inks


> Well Robert, now you have given me doubts about the VM
> sepia  set. But I feel I have to give them a try since
> the inks from Cone are no where near sepia. I just
> hope I don't end up with a bunch of useless ink and
> going back to color inks to get sepia.
> Evelyn
> --- Robert Morrison <rmorrison@...> wrote:
> > I've seen full sepia ouput from the VM-Sepia set and
> > it looks washed out to
> > me.  As I recall Paul Roark doesn't even use the
> > full sepia curves...opting
> > instead for a curve which produces something much
> > more like the Sepia tones.
> > The other advantage of the sepia piezotones is that
> > they are much more
> > stable to fade and warm shift...being made from 100%
> > pigment, unlike the VM
> > sets.
> >
> > Robert
> >
>
>
> __________________________________________________
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> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
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>
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unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
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>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
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>
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>
>
>

Evelyn, try printing the piezo carbon sepia inks on Concorde Rag--this paper 
will possibly get you closer to the sepia range you are looking for- eleanor

-- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Evelyn Grant <
ingamom@y...> wrote:

> Well Robert, now you have given me doubts about the VM
> sepia  set. But I feel I have to give them a try since
> the inks from Cone are no where near sepia. I just
> hope I don't end up with a bunch of useless ink and
> going back to color inks to get sepia.
> Evelyn
> --- Robert Morrison <rmorrison@p...> wrote:
> > I've seen full sepia ouput from the VM-Sepia set and
> > it looks washed out to
> > me.  As I recall Paul Roark doesn't even use the
> > full sepia curves...opting
> > instead for a curve which produces something much
> > more like the Sepia tones.
> > The other advantage of the sepia piezotones is that
> > they are much more
> > stable to fade and warm shift...being made from 100%
> > pigment, unlike the VM
> > sets.
> > 
> > Robert
> > 
> 
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
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Hi Evelyn,

Pardon me for jumping in. I had a similar problem in getting the degree of sepia that I had envisioned the image and ended up going back to a color inkset (MIS Perpetual, which is archival) on a second printer that I use for color anyway. That has given me pretty much the effect I wanted using the photoshop duotone set up. I found the Keith Krebs quadtone set a good starting place. They are more to the red end of things rather than a VanDyke brown kind of tint but I would guess that some tweaking could get around that. The Lyson small gamut inkset can get you to a fair sepia but I don't know about its archival properties. 

Roger

  -----Original Message-----
  From: Evelyn Grant [mailto:ingamom@...]
  Sent: Tuesday, January 07, 2003 1:03 PM
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Cone Sepia and Selenium inks


  Thanks for the reply Eleanor. I'm just not getting any
  brown tones at all with the carbon sepia inks. Just
  very warm b&w. I'm not familiar with the Agfa Classic,
  in the darkroom I used Kodak Ektalure paper and it
  would tone a gorgeous golden brown with brown toner.
  I'm going to try the MIS VMS inks and see what I get
  from them. Thanks again.
  Evelyn
  --- "eleanor77027 <elliebrown@...>"
  <elliebrown@...> wrote:
  > Evelyn the tone of my Cone carbon sepia prints on
  > the Photo Rag 308 is 
  > almost identical to the tone of my silver prints
  > printed on Agfa Classic toned 
  > on Kodak Brown Toner.  The carbon sepia tone is the
  > most beautiful brown 
  > tone I've ever seen--a rich very warm brown that is
  > not plagued with the 
  > greenish/yellow/orange tint of many sepia prints
  > done with other inks/media/
  > toners, etc.  eleanor
  > 
  > 
  > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com,
  > Evelyn Grant <
  > ingamom@y...> wrote:
  > > Eleanor,
  > > 
  > > I am using the piezotone carbon sepia with Photo
  > Rag
  > > 308 and I'm not seeing any real brown tones. Are
  > you
  > > getting really brown prints or are they just warm
  > > black & whites?
  > > 
  > > Evelyn
  > > --- "eleanor77027 <elliebrown@a...>"
  > > <elliebrown@a...> wrote:
  > > > I have been struggling with what to do with
  > digital
  > > > black and white
  > > > printing (I'm 
  > > > a silver printer at heart) for a long time and
  > with
  > > > the advent of the
  > > > new cone 
  > > > piezotone carbon sepia and selenium inks I will
  > > > probably sell my
  > > > darkroom 
  > > > equipment in the near future.  the tone of these
  > > > inks is nothing
  > > > short of 
  > > > exquisite on the Ham. Photo Rag 308 and the
  > Kodak
  > > > Ultima Satin.  The 
  > > > Kodak paper allows the inks to dry and the ink
  > > > doesn't rub off but
  > > > this smooth 
  > > > surface satin paper does need to be sprayed or
  > > > brushed with a
  > > > lacquer.  and 
  > > > of course the Photo Rag 308 is awesome.
  > > > 
  > > > My 1280 printer is working well with these inks
  > and
  > > > I haven't
  > > > developed any 
  > > > serious clogs like I did with the original Piezo
  > > > inks.  eleanor brown
  > > > 
  > > > 
  > > 
  > > 
  > > __________________________________________________
  > > Do you Yahoo!?
  > > Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up
  > now.
  > > http://mailplus.yahoo.com
  > 
  > 


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Robert,

I believe the MIS VM, FS, ES, etc.  inksets are all 100 percent pigment.

Jerry

> I've seen full sepia ouput from the VM-Sepia set and it looks washed out to
> me.  As I recall Paul Roark doesn't even use the full sepia curves...opting
> instead for a curve which produces something much more like the Sepia tones.
> The other advantage of the sepia piezotones is that they are much more
> stable to fade and warm shift...being made from 100% pigment, unlike the VM
> sets.
>

Roger,
 Thanks for the input. At this point I need all the
help I can get. I have not tried a duotone set up. So
far in color all I've done is color adjustments to the
tone I want and then just a straight printout. I
haven't been really pleased with the shadows with this
method which is why I went to the sepia inks. Can you
give me any hints on printing with the duotone set up?
Thanks,
Evelyn
--- Roger L Sopher <rlsopher@...> wrote:
> Hi Evelyn,
> 
> Pardon me for jumping in. I had a similar problem in
> getting the degree of sepia that I had envisioned
> the image and ended up going back to a color inkset
> (MIS Perpetual, which is archival) on a second
> printer that I use for color anyway. That has given
> me pretty much the effect I wanted using the
> photoshop duotone set up. I found the Keith Krebs
> quadtone set a good starting place. They are more to
> the red end of things rather than a VanDyke brown
> kind of tint but I would guess that some tweaking
> could get around that. The Lyson small gamut inkset
> can get you to a fair sepia but I don't know about
> its archival properties. 
> 
> Roger
>   -----Original Message-----
>   From: Evelyn Grant [mailto:ingamom@...]
>   Sent: Tuesday, January 07, 2003 1:03 PM
>   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
>   Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Cone Sepia and Selenium
> inks
> 
> 
>   Thanks for the reply Eleanor. I'm just not getting
> any
>   brown tones at all with the carbon sepia inks.
> Just
>   very warm b&w. I'm not familiar with the Agfa
> Classic,
>   in the darkroom I used Kodak Ektalure paper and it
>   would tone a gorgeous golden brown with brown
> toner.
>   I'm going to try the MIS VMS inks and see what I
> get
>   from them. Thanks again.
>   Evelyn
>   --- "eleanor77027 <elliebrown@...>"
>   <elliebrown@...> wrote:
>   > Evelyn the tone of my Cone carbon sepia prints
> on
>   > the Photo Rag 308 is 
>   > almost identical to the tone of my silver prints
>   > printed on Agfa Classic toned 
>   > on Kodak Brown Toner.  The carbon sepia tone is
> the
>   > most beautiful brown 
>   > tone I've ever seen--a rich very warm brown that
> is
>   > not plagued with the 
>   > greenish/yellow/orange tint of many sepia prints
>   > done with other inks/media/
>   > toners, etc.  eleanor
>   > 
>   > 
>   > --- In
> DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com,
>   > Evelyn Grant <
>   > ingamom@y...> wrote:
>   > > Eleanor,
>   > > 
>   > > I am using the piezotone carbon sepia with
> Photo
>   > Rag
>   > > 308 and I'm not seeing any real brown tones.
> Are
>   > you
>   > > getting really brown prints or are they just
> warm
>   > > black & whites?
>   > > 
>   > > Evelyn
>   > > --- "eleanor77027 <elliebrown@a...>"
>   > > <elliebrown@a...> wrote:
>   > > > I have been struggling with what to do with
>   > digital
>   > > > black and white
>   > > > printing (I'm 
>   > > > a silver printer at heart) for a long time
> and
>   > with
>   > > > the advent of the
>   > > > new cone 
>   > > > piezotone carbon sepia and selenium inks I
> will
>   > > > probably sell my
>   > > > darkroom 
>   > > > equipment in the near future.  the tone of
> these
>   > > > inks is nothing
>   > > > short of 
>   > > > exquisite on the Ham. Photo Rag 308 and the
>   > Kodak
>   > > > Ultima Satin.  The 
>   > > > Kodak paper allows the inks to dry and the
> ink
>   > > > doesn't rub off but
>   > > > this smooth 
>   > > > surface satin paper does need to be sprayed
> or
>   > > > brushed with a
>   > > > lacquer.  and 
>   > > > of course the Photo Rag 308 is awesome.
>   > > > 
>   > > > My 1280 printer is working well with these
> inks
>   > and
>   > > > I haven't
>   > > > developed any 
>   > > > serious clogs like I did with the original
> Piezo
>   > > > inks.  eleanor brown
>   > > > 
>   > > > 
>   > > 
>   > > 
>   > >
> __________________________________________________
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>   > > Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign
> up
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>   > 
>   > 
> 
> 
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Hi Evelyn,

I claim no serious expertese but essentially what I do is to work up the image as if I were going to print it as a B&W using what ever you normally do to get to a B&W image in photoshop. Convert to a graytone but up the density 10% - 20% and then convert to a duotone. At that point you should be able to chose from a number of canned duotones, tritones and quadtones that come with photoshop. Add ins such as Keith kreb's are also available and can be put in the duotone folder. When you choose (load) a set the image will change to reflect the choice. You can switch around trying different sets until you finally OK the one that looks best to you. You may need to adjust the white, mid and black points in order to get the result you want - sometimes the "raw" duotone is pretty awful until tweaked. When you load the duotone set it will give a number of colors that have no bearing on reality - just consider them names. Convert back to RGB and tweak the levels and gamut, if needed, until the image looks as you wish it to. Print as you would a color image. 

My setup uses a 1200 printer with a CIS loaded with MIS perpetual inks but I usually proof on a Canon S9000 with OEM inks because it is so much faster and if the image works there it can be fine tuned to bring out a good image on the epson. 

The MIS Perpetual inkset is to my view very good. It may not quite have the gamut of one of the hot dye based sets but it is very nice indeed and produces lovely color prints. I usually use Eclipse Satine and EEM as papers of choice when printing color, including duotones.
Roger

  -----Original Message-----
  From: Evelyn Grant [mailto:ingamom@...]
  Sent: Tuesday, January 07, 2003 4:28 PM
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Cone Sepia and Selenium inks


  Roger,
  Thanks for the input. At this point I need all the
  help I can get. I have not tried a duotone set up. So
  far in color all I've done is color adjustments to the
  tone I want and then just a straight printout. I
  haven't been really pleased with the shadows with this
  method which is why I went to the sepia inks. Can you
  give me any hints on printing with the duotone set up?
  Thanks,
  Evelyn
  --- Roger L Sopher <rlsopher@...> wrote:
  > Hi Evelyn,
  > 
  > Pardon me for jumping in. I had a similar problem in
  > getting the degree of sepia that I had envisioned
  > the image and ended up going back to a color inkset
  > (MIS Perpetual, which is archival) on a second
  > printer that I use for color anyway. That has given
  > me pretty much the effect I wanted using the
  > photoshop duotone set up. I found the Keith Krebs
  > quadtone set a good starting place. They are more to
  > the red end of things rather than a VanDyke brown
  > kind of tint but I would guess that some tweaking
  > could get around that. The Lyson small gamut inkset
  > can get you to a fair sepia but I don't know about
  > its archival properties. 
  > 
  > Roger
  >   -----Original Message-----
  >   From: Evelyn Grant [mailto:ingamom@...]
  >   Sent: Tuesday, January 07, 2003 1:03 PM
  >   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  >   Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Cone Sepia and Selenium
  > inks
  > 
  > 
  >   Thanks for the reply Eleanor. I'm just not getting
  > any
  >   brown tones at all with the carbon sepia inks.
  > Just
  >   very warm b&w. I'm not familiar with the Agfa
  > Classic,
  >   in the darkroom I used Kodak Ektalure paper and it
  >   would tone a gorgeous golden brown with brown
  > toner.
  >   I'm going to try the MIS VMS inks and see what I
  > get
  >   from them. Thanks again.
  >   Evelyn
  >   --- "eleanor77027 <elliebrown@...>"
  >   <elliebrown@...> wrote:
  >   > Evelyn the tone of my Cone carbon sepia prints
  > on
  >   > the Photo Rag 308 is 
  >   > almost identical to the tone of my silver prints
  >   > printed on Agfa Classic toned 
  >   > on Kodak Brown Toner.  The carbon sepia tone is
  > the
  >   > most beautiful brown 
  >   > tone I've ever seen--a rich very warm brown that
  > is
  >   > not plagued with the 
  >   > greenish/yellow/orange tint of many sepia prints
  >   > done with other inks/media/
  >   > toners, etc.  eleanor
  >   > 
  >   > 
  >   > --- In
  > DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com,
  >   > Evelyn Grant <
  >   > ingamom@y...> wrote:
  >   > > Eleanor,
  >   > > 
  >   > > I am using the piezotone carbon sepia with
  > Photo
  >   > Rag
  >   > > 308 and I'm not seeing any real brown tones.
  > Are
  >   > you
  >   > > getting really brown prints or are they just
  > warm
  >   > > black & whites?
  >   > > 
  >   > > Evelyn
  >   > > --- "eleanor77027 <elliebrown@a...>"
  >   > > <elliebrown@a...> wrote:
  >   > > > I have been struggling with what to do with
  >   > digital
  >   > > > black and white
  >   > > > printing (I'm 
  >   > > > a silver printer at heart) for a long time
  > and
  >   > with
  >   > > > the advent of the
  >   > > > new cone 
  >   > > > piezotone carbon sepia and selenium inks I
  > will
  >   > > > probably sell my
  >   > > > darkroom 
  >   > > > equipment in the near future.  the tone of
  > these
  >   > > > inks is nothing
  >   > > > short of 
  >   > > > exquisite on the Ham. Photo Rag 308 and the
  >   > Kodak
  >   > > > Ultima Satin.  The 
  >   > > > Kodak paper allows the inks to dry and the
  > ink
  >   > > > doesn't rub off but
  >   > > > this smooth 
  >   > > > surface satin paper does need to be sprayed
  > or
  >   > > > brushed with a
  >   > > > lacquer.  and 
  >   > > > of course the Photo Rag 308 is awesome.
  >   > > > 
  >   > > > My 1280 printer is working well with these
  > inks
  >   > and
  >   > > > I haven't
  >   > > > developed any 
  >   > > > serious clogs like I did with the original
  > Piezo
  >   > > > inks.  eleanor brown
  >   > > > 
  >   > > > 
  >   > > 
  >   > > 
  >   > >
  > __________________________________________________
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  >   > > Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign
  > up
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  >   > 
  > 
  > 
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Eddie wrote

> I recently switched from the "standard" MIS VM a-la-Roark to the "Sepia"
> version...I love it!!..

Eddie,

Which printer are you using and are you using a CIS? If so, did you start
from scratch with new carts and bottles when you made the switch?

Tom Keesling
Intelligent Design, Inc.

Evelyn: If you will send me a CD with an image, I would be glad to send you
a couple of prints with different curves in the VM-S inks.  Others on this
list have done that for me, and it certainly helps narrow the selection when
you have actual prints to look at.

Regards,

  --Ken Carney
    www.kencarney.com

----- Original Message -----
From: "Evelyn Grant" <ingamom@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 05, 2003 11:13 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Cone Sepia and Selenium inks


> Ken,
>
> Thanks for your reply. It's great to get confirmation
> that I'm seeing things correctly :). Looks like once I
> run thru these Cone sepia inks I'll be switching to
> the MIS VM-S inks. I kind of feel like we're all being
> misled by Cone calling these inks sepia. They look
> more like what I used to get in the darkroom on
> Kodak's Ektalure paper before I toned it. I have been
> so satisfied with their quadtones for black & white
> that I just assumed I'd be thrilled with the sepia
> ink. Ah well, live & learn.
>
> Evelyn
>
> --- Ken Carney <kcarney1@...> wrote:
> > I looked at the Cone site for the carbon sepia
> > patch, and it looked more
> > like a fairly warm print to me  - with all of the
> > vagaries that go with a
> > web image.  With the MIS VM-S inks and the Paul
> > Roark or Keith Krebs curves
> > the print goes from a true sepia to a neutral b&w,
> > with excellent tonal
> > range, and on Epson EEM paper yet.  Between that and
> > Portra and Polaroid PN
> > film, my darkroom is history...
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> >   --Ken Carney
> >     www.kencarney.com
> >
>
> >
> >
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
> http://mailplus.yahoo.com
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
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> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
&amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot;
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resources on the homepage.

>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Ken,
 I would really appreciate that. You can send me your
address off list and I'll get a CD right out to you.
Thanks so much.
Evelyn

--- Ken Carney <kcarney1@...> wrote:
> Evelyn: If you will send me a CD with an image, I
> would be glad to send you
> a couple of prints with different curves in the VM-S
> inks.  Others on this
> list have done that for me, and it certainly helps
> narrow the selection when
> you have actual prints to look at.
> 
> Regards,
> 
>   --Ken Carney
>     www.kencarney.com
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Evelyn Grant" <ingamom@...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Sunday, January 05, 2003 11:13 PM
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Cone Sepia and Selenium
> inks
> 
> 
> > Ken,
> >
> > Thanks for your reply. It's great to get
> confirmation
> > that I'm seeing things correctly :). Looks like
> once I
> > run thru these Cone sepia inks I'll be switching
> to
> > the MIS VM-S inks. I kind of feel like we're all
> being
> > misled by Cone calling these inks sepia. They look
> > more like what I used to get in the darkroom on
> > Kodak's Ektalure paper before I toned it. I have
> been
> > so satisfied with their quadtones for black &
> white
> > that I just assumed I'd be thrilled with the sepia
> > ink. Ah well, live & learn.
> >
> > Evelyn
> >
> > --- Ken Carney <kcarney1@...> wrote:
> > > I looked at the Cone site for the carbon sepia
> > > patch, and it looked more
> > > like a fairly warm print to me  - with all of
> the
> > > vagaries that go with a
> > > web image.  With the MIS VM-S inks and the Paul
> > > Roark or Keith Krebs curves
> > > the print goes from a true sepia to a neutral
> b&w,
> > > with excellent tonal
> > > range, and on Epson EEM paper yet.  Between that
> and
> > > Portra and Polaroid PN
> > > film, my darkroom is history...
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > >
> > >   --Ken Carney
> > >     www.kencarney.com
> > >
> >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up
> now.
> > http://mailplus.yahoo.com
> >
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the
> Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
> other resources as they are often being updated. The
> page is at:
> >
> >
>
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >
> > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily
> digest, or you wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences
> by visiting this same
> page.
> >
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > - Include your full name with your message.
> > - Include the address of your website, if you have
> one.
> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of
> earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to
> change the subject header.
> > - Good manners are required at all time. No
> personal attacks or
> &amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot;
> > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> > - Before posting a question, search the message
> archives and the various
> resources on the homepage.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> 
> 


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Thanks Roger,
 I'll give it a try and see what happens. I'll let you
know.
Evelyn
--- Roger L Sopher <rlsopher@...> wrote:
> Hi Evelyn,
> 
> I claim no serious expertese but essentially what I
> do is to work up the image as if I were going to
> print it as a B&W using what ever you normally do to
> get to a B&W image in photoshop. Convert to a
> graytone but up the density 10% - 20% and then
> convert to a duotone. At that point you should be
> able to chose from a number of canned duotones,
> tritones and quadtones that come with photoshop. Add
> ins such as Keith kreb's are also available and can
> be put in the duotone folder. When you choose (load)
> a set the image will change to reflect the choice.
> You can switch around trying different sets until
> you finally OK the one that looks best to you. You
> may need to adjust the white, mid and black points
> in order to get the result you want - sometimes the
> "raw" duotone is pretty awful until tweaked. When
> you load the duotone set it will give a number of
> colors that have no bearing on reality - just
> consider them names. Convert back to RGB and tweak
> the levels and gamut, if needed, until the image
> looks as you wish it to. Print as you would a color
> image. 
> 
> My setup uses a 1200 printer with a CIS loaded with
> MIS perpetual inks but I usually proof on a Canon
> S9000 with OEM inks because it is so much faster and
> if the image works there it can be fine tuned to
> bring out a good image on the epson. 
> 
> The MIS Perpetual inkset is to my view very good. It
> may not quite have the gamut of one of the hot dye
> based sets but it is very nice indeed and produces
> lovely color prints. I usually use Eclipse Satine
> and EEM as papers of choice when printing color,
> including duotones.
> Roger
> 
>   -----Original Message-----
>   From: Evelyn Grant [mailto:ingamom@...]
>   Sent: Tuesday, January 07, 2003 4:28 PM
>   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
>   Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Cone Sepia and Selenium
> inks
> 
> 
>   Roger,
>   Thanks for the input. At this point I need all the
>   help I can get. I have not tried a duotone set up.
> So
>   far in color all I've done is color adjustments to
> the
>   tone I want and then just a straight printout. I
>   haven't been really pleased with the shadows with
> this
>   method which is why I went to the sepia inks. Can
> you
>   give me any hints on printing with the duotone set
> up?
>   Thanks,
>   Evelyn
>   --- Roger L Sopher <rlsopher@...> wrote:
>   > Hi Evelyn,
>   > 
>   > Pardon me for jumping in. I had a similar
> problem in
>   > getting the degree of sepia that I had
> envisioned
>   > the image and ended up going back to a color
> inkset
>   > (MIS Perpetual, which is archival) on a second
>   > printer that I use for color anyway. That has
> given
>   > me pretty much the effect I wanted using the
>   > photoshop duotone set up. I found the Keith
> Krebs
>   > quadtone set a good starting place. They are
> more to
>   > the red end of things rather than a VanDyke
> brown
>   > kind of tint but I would guess that some
> tweaking
>   > could get around that. The Lyson small gamut
> inkset
>   > can get you to a fair sepia but I don't know
> about
>   > its archival properties. 
>   > 
>   > Roger
>   >   -----Original Message-----
>   >   From: Evelyn Grant [mailto:ingamom@...]
>   >   Sent: Tuesday, January 07, 2003 1:03 PM
>   >   To:
> DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
>   >   Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Cone Sepia and
> Selenium
>   > inks
>   > 
>   > 
>   >   Thanks for the reply Eleanor. I'm just not
> getting
>   > any
>   >   brown tones at all with the carbon sepia inks.
>   > Just
>   >   very warm b&w. I'm not familiar with the Agfa
>   > Classic,
>   >   in the darkroom I used Kodak Ektalure paper
> and it
>   >   would tone a gorgeous golden brown with brown
>   > toner.
>   >   I'm going to try the MIS VMS inks and see what
> I
>   > get
>   >   from them. Thanks again.
>   >   Evelyn
>   >   --- "eleanor77027 <elliebrown@...>"
>   >   <elliebrown@...> wrote:
>   >   > Evelyn the tone of my Cone carbon sepia
> prints
>   > on
>   >   > the Photo Rag 308 is 
>   >   > almost identical to the tone of my silver
> prints
>   >   > printed on Agfa Classic toned 
>   >   > on Kodak Brown Toner.  The carbon sepia tone
> is
>   > the
>   >   > most beautiful brown 
>   >   > tone I've ever seen--a rich very warm brown
> that
>   > is
>   >   > not plagued with the 
>   >   > greenish/yellow/orange tint of many sepia
> prints
>   >   > done with other inks/media/
>   >   > toners, etc.  eleanor
>   >   > 
>   >   > 
>   >   > --- In
>   > DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com,
>   >   > Evelyn Grant <
>   >   > ingamom@y...> wrote:
>   >   > > Eleanor,
>   >   > > 
>   >   > > I am using the piezotone carbon sepia with
>   > Photo
>   >   > Rag
>   >   > > 308 and I'm not seeing any real brown
> tones.
>   > Are
>   >   > you
>   >   > > getting really brown prints or are they
> just
>   > warm
>   >   > > black & whites?
>   >   > > 
>   >   > > Evelyn
>   >   > > --- "eleanor77027 <elliebrown@a...>"
>   >   > > <elliebrown@a...> wrote:
>   >   > > > I have been struggling with what to do
> with
>   >   > digital
>   >   > > > black and white
>   >   > > > printing (I'm 
>   >   > > > a silver printer at heart) for a long
> time
>   > and
>   >   > with
>   >   > > > the advent of the
>   >   > > > new cone 
>   >   > > > piezotone carbon sepia and selenium inks
> I
>   > will
>   >   > > > probably sell my
>   >   > > > darkroom 
>   >   > > > equipment in the near future.  the tone
> of
>   > these
>   >   > > > inks is nothing
>   >   > > > short of 
>   >   > > > exquisite on the Ham. Photo Rag 308 and
> the
>   >   > Kodak
>   >   > > > Ultima Satin.  The 
>   >   > > > Kodak paper allows the inks to dry and
> the
>   > ink
>   >   > > > doesn't rub off but
>   >   > > > this smooth 
>   >   > > > surface satin paper does need to be
> sprayed
>   > or
>   >   > > > brushed with a
>   >   > > > lacquer.  and 
>   >   > > > of course the Photo Rag 308 is awesome.
>   >   > > > 
>   >   > > > My 1280 printer is working well with
> these
>   > inks
>   >   > and
> 
=== message truncated ===


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Where is this vm sepia set? I cant find it on the mis site.

Randy

Jerry Olson wrote:

> 
> Robert,
> 
> I believe the MIS VM, FS, ES, etc.  inksets are all 100 percent pigment.
> 
> Jerry
> 
> > I've seen full sepia ouput from the VM-Sepia set and it looks washed out to
> > me.  As I recall Paul Roark doesn't even use the full sepia curves...opting
> > instead for a curve which produces something much more like the Sepia tones.
> > The other advantage of the sepia piezotones is that they are much more
> > stable to fade and warm shift...being made from 100% pigment, unlike the VM
> > sets.
> >
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page.
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The sepia variable-tone/mix is on the MIS "Quadtone" tab/page, down under
the

"MIS Variable Mix Quadtones "-  subtitle.  It is sold only in bulk.  Click
on the subtitle on the MIS site to get to those products.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com
________________________________

  -----Original Message-----
  From: randy laskody [mailto:rlphoto@...]
  Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 9:12 AM
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Cone Sepia and Selenium inks


  Where is this vm sepia set? I cant find it on the mis site.

  Randy

  Jerry Olson wrote:
  >
  > Robert,
  >
  > I believe the MIS VM, FS, ES, etc.  inksets are all 100 percent pigment.
  >
  > Jerry
  >
  > > I've seen full sepia ouput from the VM-Sepia set and it looks washed
out to
  > > me.  As I recall Paul Roark doesn't even use the full sepia
curves...opting
  > > instead for a curve which produces something much more like the Sepia
tones.
  > > The other advantage of the sepia piezotones is that they are much more
  > > stable to fade and warm shift...being made from 100% pigment, unlike
the VM
  > > sets.
  > >
  >
  > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
  >
  > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
  >
  > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.
  >
  > Please follow these basic guidelines:
  > - Include your full name with your message.
  > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
  > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to
keep them short.
  > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject
header.
  > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
"flames."
  > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
  > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.
  >
  >
  >
  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Here's the MIS web page with the sepia ink set:

http://www.inksupply.com/index.cfm?source=html/quadinks_new.html

It did take me a while to find it on their site.
Evelyn

--- randy laskody <rlphoto@...> wrote:
> Where is this vm sepia set? I cant find it on the
> mis site.
> 
> Randy
> 
> Jerry Olson wrote:
> > 
> > Robert,
> > 
> > I believe the MIS VM, FS, ES, etc.  inksets are
> all 100 percent pigment.
> > 
> > Jerry
> > 
> > > I've seen full sepia ouput from the VM-Sepia set
> and it looks washed out to
> > > me.  As I recall Paul Roark doesn't even use the
> full sepia curves...opting
> > > instead for a curve which produces something
> much more like the Sepia tones.
> > > The other advantage of the sepia piezotones is
> that they are much more
> > > stable to fade and warm shift...being made from
> 100% pigment, unlike the VM
> > > sets.
> > >
> > 
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the
> Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they
> are often being updated. The page is at:
> > 
> >
>
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> > 
> > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily
> digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your
> Membership preferences by visiting this same page.
> > 
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > - Include your full name with your message.
> > - Include the address of your website, if you have
> one.
> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of
> earlier messages to keep them short.
> > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to
> change the subject header.
> > - Good manners are required at all time. No
> personal attacks or
> &amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot;
> > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> > - Before posting a question, search the message
> archives and the various resources on the homepage.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
> 


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Paul, you wrote:


> I now think the reality is that the FS/VM/PiezoBW blacks do have some dye
in
> them, but due to the co-solvent base, the dyes tend to "aggregate" (clump
> up) -- probably around the carbon pigments.  So, while the carbon may not
be
> coated like the Epson Archival resin coating, the dye is probably not just
a
> thin coating on the paper.  As such, the pigment/dye masses have a surface
> area to volume ratio that is closer to a pure pigment than would be the
case
> with a black pigmented ink that has some dye in it but does not have the
> co-solvent base.
>
> The reason the FS midtones fade faster than the black is probably that the
> black is diluted with a standard, non-co-solvent base that dilutes the
> co-solvent and destroys the "aggregating" function of the co-solvent.  As
> such, what little dye is in there burns off relatively rapidly.

For a special masking ink used on silkscreen films to get a washed touche
effect in the silkscreen print I've used medical carbon particles.
Norit makes several grades of that carbon powder. The size of the particles
that I used was around 50 micron (I had to sieve the carbon to get rid of
the smaller and bigger particles). This carbon is made for absorption and
will absorb a lot. When I mixed it with 2 quantities of PVA solution then
the next morning the stuff was more or less solid again. It could well be
that the carbon used in the inks has some absorbing characteristics, not to
the degree of the carbon I used but still enough. The dye mixed in will not
just stick to the surface of the carbon particle but penetrate as well.
Usually carbon in non-inkjet inks means lamp black. That isn't free of dye
like components as a result of its production. I have no clue what actually
is used in inkjet inks but carbon pigment comes in more than one form.

Ernst