Digital BW, The Print

The Inkjetgoodies CIS has performed like a champ on my 1280 for a
couple of years, but it does use a serious amount of ink when the
machine is turned on; the cleaning cycle is always at maximum. The
printer is now blinking alternate green and red lights, and I suspect
the ink pads may contain enough ink to trigger the stop-printing
sensor. I looked for the reset sequence in the "Files" section, but
couldn't find it. A reset might keep me printing while I order a 2200
together with the new carts (thanks for the tip, Paul Roark) and
whatever I need to fill them. Can anyone give me the reset sequence
for the 1280?
Bob Bollini

Try this site:
http://www.colorbat.com/hex_converter.htm

Also, if I remember correctly, ther is a PDF of the service manual 
somewhere on the site, but I couldn't locate it.

Hope this helps.
Peter


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "p5198" 
<rbollini@n...> wrote:
> 
> The Inkjetgoodies CIS has performed like a champ on my 1280 for a
> couple of years, but it does use a serious amount of ink when the
> machine is turned on; the cleaning cycle is always at maximum. The
> printer is now blinking alternate green and red lights, and I 
suspect
> the ink pads may contain enough ink to trigger the stop-printing
> sensor. I looked for the reset sequence in the "Files" section, but
> couldn't find it. A reset might keep me printing while I order a 
2200

> together with the new carts (thanks for the tip, Paul Roark) and
> whatever I need to fill them. Can anyone give me the reset sequence
> for the 1280?
> Bob Bollini

Hi all,

What about using heat when dry mounting inkjets?
If you use i e Seal Archival tissue you have to warm it up till ca 70C.
What happens with the coating and the ink (almost boiling)?
How will this influence the longevity of the print?

Hans
-- 
Atelier Pictoform
Chia N-L�fqvist & Hans Nohlberg
Hed�sgatan 5
SE-412 53 G�teborg
SWEDEN

+46  (0)31181414
Mobile: 073 974 44 24
(Bes�k/visit Hed�sgatan 6)

http://www.pictoform.nu
http://www.etsabild.se
http://www.artphotocollection.com

Hans,

>What about using heat when dry mounting inkjets?
>If you use i e Seal Archival tissue you have to warm it up till ca 70C.
>What happens with the coating and the ink (almost boiling)?

I dry mount with Seal Archival.  I set the press at 170 F (about 77 C).  I
have no idea what the actual temperature is.  I'm looking at a UT-FSN+ print
on Epson Semimatte, sprayed with PremierArt Print Shield (seems to be the
same as Lyson Print Guard) that was dry mounted onto an acid-free, buffered
mat board.  I have not been able to see any problems with it.  The only time
I did have a problem was when my release paper was too old.

>How will this influence the longevity of the print?

I don't know.  I'm guessing it'll have no effect on the fade rate.  

The buffering in the mat board might actually help the paper.  Epson
Semimatte is rated at ">200 years" by Wilhelm, but my acid test pen
indicates the paper base is only weakly buffered, unlike the other Epson
"Premium" RC papers, which test as quite "acid free."  (There may be a
reason Epson Semimatte is relatively cheap.)

Let us know if you run into any problems with dry mounting.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Actually, the flashing reg and green lights do not mean the ink pad is
full. It only tells you that enough cleaning cycles have been run to
possibly cause a probelm in Epson's conservative estimation. I and
others have just reset the counter and kept on printing for a long
time. I don't have a link to the reset procedure at my fingertips, but
 know it's on the Epson printer list files section. It's just a matter
of pushing the right buttons on the printer, turning it off and back
on. Takes about 15 seconds as I remember. 

Bob Michaels

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "p5198"
<rbollini@n...> wrote:

> 
> The Inkjetgoodies CIS has performed like a champ on my 1280 for a
> couple of years, but it does use a serious amount of ink when the
> machine is turned on; the cleaning cycle is always at maximum. The
> printer is now blinking alternate green and red lights, and I suspect
> the ink pads may contain enough ink to trigger the stop-printing
> sensor. I looked for the reset sequence in the "Files" section, but
> couldn't find it. A reset might keep me printing while I order a 2200
> together with the new carts (thanks for the tip, Paul Roark) and
> whatever I need to fill them. Can anyone give me the reset sequence
> for the 1280?
> Bob Bollini

So, you spray the print first, and then dry mount it?

Also, how long due you think the shelf life is for paper, such as 
Epson Premium or Kirkland?
Do you think it could be frozen for long term storage (2 yrs or so) 
like traditional "silver" papers?


Scott

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> Hans,
> 
> >What about using heat when dry mounting inkjets?
> >If you use i e Seal Archival tissue you have to warm it up till ca 
70C.
> >What happens with the coating and the ink (almost boiling)?
> 
> I dry mount with Seal Archival.  I set the press at 170 F (about 77 
C).  I
> have no idea what the actual temperature is.  I'm looking at a UT-
FSN+ print
> on Epson Semimatte, sprayed with PremierArt Print Shield (seems to 
be the
> same as Lyson Print Guard) that was dry mounted onto an acid-free, 
buffered
> mat board.  I have not been able to see any problems with it.  The 
only time
> I did have a problem was when my release paper was too old.
> 
> >How will this influence the longevity of the print?
> 
> I don't know.  I'm guessing it'll have no effect on the fade rate.  
> 
> The buffering in the mat board might actually help the paper.  Epson
> Semimatte is rated at ">200 years" by Wilhelm, but my acid test pen
> indicates the paper base is only weakly buffered, unlike the other 
Epson
> "Premium" RC papers, which test as quite "acid free."  (There may 
be a

> reason Epson Semimatte is relatively cheap.)
> 
> Let us know if you run into any problems with dry mounting.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com

>So, you spray the print first, and then dry mount it?

Yes, I think this protects the print.  Then if there is any minor damage
(like from removing dust that has been pressed into the surface) it's easy
enough to do a post-mounting, light spray. 

>Also, how long do you think the shelf life is for paper, such as 
>Epson Premium or Kirkland?

I don't know.  I think I may have had one piece of paper "go bad" that was
not in a container.  It was a piece of Epson UltraSmooth that just did not
seem to have the dmax it used to.  (I double-checked that I'd printed on the
correct side.)  On the other hand, I just used a couple old boxes of Eclipse
Satine that have been sitting around for a few years, and they seemed fine.
For ink testing, I regularly use odd, cut pieces of EEM that have sat in the
open in my darkroom near the paper cutter, and they seem to hold up fine.
So, in general, I think of the paper as a non-perishable.

>Do you think it could be frozen for long term storage (2 yrs or so) 
>like traditional "silver" papers?

I doubt that freezing does significant good.  I suspect humidity and
airborne pollution are what might attack the coating.  Aside from the one
sample of UltraSmooth that seemed to die after it has been out of a
container for months, I've never detected any other signs of age-related
deterioration of matte papers.  On the glossy side, I see swings in dmax
that can go from close to 1.7 to over 2.0, and I don't know what the
variables are.  I'm suspicious of humidity, but I have not been able to nail
it down.  The swings seem almost random.  They do not seem to follow the
usual desktop printer warm-up changes (which produce lighter midtones) that
I've seen rather regularly.

Sorry I couldn't be of more help.  Paper life and the variables that affect
how the papers print are definitely areas where we could use some
knowledgeable input.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> Hans,
> 
> >What about using heat when dry mounting inkjets?
> >If you use i e Seal Archival tissue you have to warm it up till ca 
70C.
> >What happens with the coating and the ink (almost boiling)?
> 
> I dry mount with Seal Archival.  I set the press at 170 F (about 77 
C).  I
> have no idea what the actual temperature is.  I'm looking at a UT-
FSN+ print
> on Epson Semimatte, sprayed with PremierArt Print Shield (seems to 
be the
> same as Lyson Print Guard) that was dry mounted onto an acid-free, 
buffered
> mat board.  I have not been able to see any problems with it.  The 
only time
> I did have a problem was when my release paper was too old.
> 
> >How will this influence the longevity of the print?
> 
> I don't know.  I'm guessing it'll have no effect on the fade rate.  
> 
> The buffering in the mat board might actually help the paper.  Epson
> Semimatte is rated at ">200 years" by Wilhelm, but my acid test pen
> indicates the paper base is only weakly buffered, unlike the other 
Epson
> "Premium" RC papers, which test as quite "acid free."  (There may 
be a
> reason Epson Semimatte is relatively cheap.)
> 
> Let us know if you run into any problems with dry mounting.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com





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YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND
"MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU
FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY
DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS,
GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  "OWNER" AND
"MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE
POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY
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ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY
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Yahoo! Groups Links

Thanks for the reply.

2 more quick questions:

1. Did you mention Kirkland Glossy has a dmax of 2.4 with the PK ink 
on the C86?

2. In reguards to the "printer warm-up" problem: Are you talking 
about the power being on for awhile? Or, actually having to print a 
few photos to "warm it up"?

Thanks again Paul,

Scott



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> 
> >So, you spray the print first, and then dry mount it?
> 
> Yes, I think this protects the print.  Then if there is any minor 
damage
> (like from removing dust that has been pressed into the surface) 
it's easy
> enough to do a post-mounting, light spray. 
> 
> >Also, how long do you think the shelf life is for paper, such as 
> >Epson Premium or Kirkland?
> 
> I don't know.  I think I may have had one piece of paper "go bad" 
that was
> not in a container.  It was a piece of Epson UltraSmooth that just 
did not
> seem to have the dmax it used to.  (I double-checked that I'd 
printed on the
> correct side.)  On the other hand, I just used a couple old boxes 
of Eclipse
> Satine that have been sitting around for a few years, and they 
seemed fine.
> For ink testing, I regularly use odd, cut pieces of EEM that have 
sat in the
> open in my darkroom near the paper cutter, and they seem to hold up 
fine.
> So, in general, I think of the paper as a non-perishable.
> 
> >Do you think it could be frozen for long term storage (2 yrs or 
so) 
> >like traditional "silver" papers?
> 
> I doubt that freezing does significant good.  I suspect humidity and
> airborne pollution are what might attack the coating.  Aside from 
the one
> sample of UltraSmooth that seemed to die after it has been out of a
> container for months, I've never detected any other signs of age-
related
> deterioration of matte papers.  On the glossy side, I see swings in 
dmax
> that can go from close to 1.7 to over 2.0, and I don't know what the
> variables are.  I'm suspicious of humidity, but I have not been 
able to nail
> it down.  The swings seem almost random.  They do not seem to 
follow the
> usual desktop printer warm-up changes (which produce lighter 
midtones) that
> I've seen rather regularly.
> 
> Sorry I couldn't be of more help.  Paper life and the variables 
that affect
> how the papers print are definitely areas where we could use some
> knowledgeable input.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com 
> 
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 
> <paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> > Hans,
> > 
> > >What about using heat when dry mounting inkjets?
> > >If you use i e Seal Archival tissue you have to warm it up till 
ca 
> 70C.
> > >What happens with the coating and the ink (almost boiling)?
> > 
> > I dry mount with Seal Archival.  I set the press at 170 F (about 
77 
> C).  I
> > have no idea what the actual temperature is.  I'm looking at a UT-
> FSN+ print
> > on Epson Semimatte, sprayed with PremierArt Print Shield (seems 
to 
> be the
> > same as Lyson Print Guard) that was dry mounted onto an acid-
free, 
> buffered
> > mat board.  I have not been able to see any problems with it.  
The 
> only time
> > I did have a problem was when my release paper was too old.
> > 
> > >How will this influence the longevity of the print?
> > 
> > I don't know.  I'm guessing it'll have no effect on the fade 
rate.  
> > 
> > The buffering in the mat board might actually help the paper.  
Epson
> > Semimatte is rated at ">200 years" by Wilhelm, but my acid test 
pen
> > indicates the paper base is only weakly buffered, unlike the 
other 
> Epson
> > "Premium" RC papers, which test as quite "acid free."  (There may 
> be a
> > reason Epson Semimatte is relatively cheap.)
> > 
> > Let us know if you run into any problems with dry mounting.
> > 
> > Paul
> > www.PaulRoark.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
resources as
> they are often being updated.
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you 
wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting 
this same
> page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages 
to keep
> them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or 
flames.
> Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
> membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital 
B&W
> printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be 
removed from
> the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group 
Owner and
> Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files 
section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> 
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE 
PRINT
> YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND
> "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE 
LIABLE TO YOU
> FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR 
EXEMPLARY
> DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS,
> GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF 
THE  "OWNER" AND
> "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED 
OF THE
> POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE 
INABILITY
> TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED 
ACCESS TO OR
> ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR 
CONDUCT OF ANY
> THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY 
OTHER

> MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
>  
> Yahoo! Groups Links

Scott,

>1. Did you mention Kirkland Glossy has a dmax of 2.4 with the PK ink 
>on the C86?

I may have, and it might have when fresh.  However, these huge dmax numbers
tend to decrease over the first few days due, I think, to the slow
evaporation of the glycols or other such chemicals.  As this happens the
gloss decreases in the deep blacks.  A spray restores this and will kick the
dmax back up there.  But, right now I measured a C86-Kirkland print 100%
black that was several days old, and it came in at 2.09.

>2. In regards to the "printer warm-up" problem: Are you talking 
>about the power being on for awhile? Or, actually having to print a 
>few photos to "warm it up"?

I notice when I'm doing a number of test strips during a day that the
printer will start to drift to a lighter (by perhaps 0.03 density units)
midtone density from morning to the middle of the afternoon.  I think this
is avoided for the most part if the printer is left on overnight.  So, I
have assumed it is some sort of drift that is due to the internal
temperature of the printer.  However, if left on at night, it seems to avoid
most of this, even though I find it hard to imagine that there is enough
current going through the machine to keep it "warm."  (We're not talking
much of a temperature change in my well-insulated, slab-floor, southern
California house -- perhaps low 60s to 70s.)  So, I have not really made a
study of the issue.  Fortunately the tone of the prints is stable, and the
density differences are barely detectable by eye.  So, I don't worry much
about it.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> 
> >So, you spray the print first, and then dry mount it?
> 
> Yes, I think this protects the print.  Then if there is any minor 
damage
> (like from removing dust that has been pressed into the surface) 
it's easy
> enough to do a post-mounting, light spray. 
> 
> >Also, how long do you think the shelf life is for paper, such as 
> >Epson Premium or Kirkland?
> 
> I don't know.  I think I may have had one piece of paper "go bad" 
that was
> not in a container.  It was a piece of Epson UltraSmooth that just 
did not
> seem to have the dmax it used to.  (I double-checked that I'd 
printed on the
> correct side.)  On the other hand, I just used a couple old boxes 
of Eclipse
> Satine that have been sitting around for a few years, and they 
seemed fine.
> For ink testing, I regularly use odd, cut pieces of EEM that have 
sat in the
> open in my darkroom near the paper cutter, and they seem to hold up 
fine.
> So, in general, I think of the paper as a non-perishable.
> 
> >Do you think it could be frozen for long term storage (2 yrs or 
so) 
> >like traditional "silver" papers?
> 
> I doubt that freezing does significant good.  I suspect humidity and
> airborne pollution are what might attack the coating.  Aside from 
the one
> sample of UltraSmooth that seemed to die after it has been out of a
> container for months, I've never detected any other signs of age-
related
> deterioration of matte papers.  On the glossy side, I see swings in 
dmax
> that can go from close to 1.7 to over 2.0, and I don't know what the
> variables are.  I'm suspicious of humidity, but I have not been 
able to nail
> it down.  The swings seem almost random.  They do not seem to 
follow the
> usual desktop printer warm-up changes (which produce lighter 
midtones) that
> I've seen rather regularly.
> 
> Sorry I couldn't be of more help.  Paper life and the variables 
that affect
> how the papers print are definitely areas where we could use some
> knowledgeable input.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com 
> 
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 
> <paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> > Hans,
> > 
> > >What about using heat when dry mounting inkjets?
> > >If you use i e Seal Archival tissue you have to warm it up till 
ca 
> 70C.
> > >What happens with the coating and the ink (almost boiling)?
> > 
> > I dry mount with Seal Archival.  I set the press at 170 F (about 
77 
> C).  I
> > have no idea what the actual temperature is.  I'm looking at a UT-
> FSN+ print
> > on Epson Semimatte, sprayed with PremierArt Print Shield (seems 
to 
> be the
> > same as Lyson Print Guard) that was dry mounted onto an acid-
free, 
> buffered
> > mat board.  I have not been able to see any problems with it.  
The 
> only time
> > I did have a problem was when my release paper was too old.
> > 
> > >How will this influence the longevity of the print?
> > 
> > I don't know.  I'm guessing it'll have no effect on the fade 
rate.  
> > 
> > The buffering in the mat board might actually help the paper.  
Epson
> > Semimatte is rated at ">200 years" by Wilhelm, but my acid test 
pen
> > indicates the paper base is only weakly buffered, unlike the 
other 
> Epson
> > "Premium" RC papers, which test as quite "acid free."  (There may 
> be a
> > reason Epson Semimatte is relatively cheap.)
> > 
> > Let us know if you run into any problems with dry mounting.
> > 
> > Paul
> > www.PaulRoark.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
resources as
> they are often being updated.
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you 
wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting 
this same
> page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages 
to keep
> them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or 
flames.
> Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
> membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital 
B&W
> printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be 
removed from
> the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group 
Owner and
> Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files 
section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> 
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE 
PRINT
> YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND
> "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE 
LIABLE TO YOU
> FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR 
EXEMPLARY
> DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS,
> GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF 
THE  "OWNER" AND
> "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED 
OF THE
> POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE 
INABILITY
> TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED 
ACCESS TO OR
> ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR 
CONDUCT OF ANY
> THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY 
OTHER
> MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
>  
> Yahoo! Groups Links





Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
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unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
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Please follow these basic guidelines:
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Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
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BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND
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FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY
DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS,
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Yahoo! Groups Links

Paul,

I was asking due to reports that some people have 
had problems with heavy color shift after 
mounting.
Don't know which paper, ink etc. The problem was 
probably caused by too high temprature, ca100 C.
If I remember right, doesn't Kodak adhesive paper require that temprature.
That's no problem with a baryta paper but 
obviously can something happen with the inkjets.
Maybe it's a new issue for Wilhelm R to take care off ;­)

Hans



>Hans,
>
>>What about using heat when dry mounting inkjets?
>>If you use i e Seal Archival tissue you have to warm it up till ca 70C.
>>What happens with the coating and the ink (almost boiling)?
>
>I dry mount with Seal Archival.  I set the press at 170 F (about 77 C).  I
>have no idea what the actual temperature is.  I'm looking at a UT-FSN+ print
>on Epson Semimatte, sprayed with PremierArt Print Shield (seems to be the
>same as Lyson Print Guard) that was dry mounted onto an acid-free, buffered
>mat board.  I have not been able to see any problems with it.  The only time
>I did have a problem was when my release paper was too old.
>
>>How will this influence the longevity of the print?
>
>I don't know.  I'm guessing it'll have no effect on the fade rate. 
>
>The buffering in the mat board might actually help the paper.  Epson
>Semimatte is rated at ">200 years" by Wilhelm, but my acid test pen
>indicates the paper base is only weakly buffered, unlike the other Epson
>"Premium" RC papers, which test as quite "acid free."  (There may be a
>reason Epson Semimatte is relatively cheap.)
>
>Let us know if you run into any problems with dry mounting.
>
>Paul
>www.PaulRoark.com

-- 
Atelier Pictoform
Chia N-Löfqvist & Hans Nohlberg
Hedåsgatan 5
SE-412 53 Göteborg
SWEDEN

+46  (0)31181414
Mobile: 073 974 44 24
(Besök/visit Hedåsgatan 6)

http://www.pictoform.nu
http://www.etsabild.se
http://www.artphotocollection.com

Hans,

Seal makes a mounting tisse for color ("C"-prints) paper that 
is "low" temperature. I think it in the 150-160 F range.

That would be the way to go, probably.

There's also something called "Color Mount", now that I think about 
it.

Looks like I may have a use for my dry mount press after all. Besides 
a boat anchor! LOL!

Scott

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Hans & Chia 
<chiahans@t...> wrote:
> Paul,
> 
> I was asking due to reports that some people have 
> had problems with heavy color shift after 
> mounting.
> Don't know which paper, ink etc. The problem was 
> probably caused by too high temprature, ca100 C.
> If I remember right, doesn't Kodak adhesive paper require that 
temprature.
> That's no problem with a baryta paper but 
> obviously can something happen with the inkjets.
> Maybe it's a new issue for Wilhelm R to take care off ;­)
> 
> Hans
> 
> 
> 
> >Hans,
> >
> >>What about using heat when dry mounting inkjets?
> >>If you use i e Seal Archival tissue you have to warm it up till 
ca 70C.
> >>What happens with the coating and the ink (almost boiling)?
> >
> >I dry mount with Seal Archival.  I set the press at 170 F (about 
77 C).  I
> >have no idea what the actual temperature is.  I'm looking at a UT-
FSN+ print
> >on Epson Semimatte, sprayed with PremierArt Print Shield (seems to 
be the
> >same as Lyson Print Guard) that was dry mounted onto an acid-free, 
buffered
> >mat board.  I have not been able to see any problems with it.  The 
only time
> >I did have a problem was when my release paper was too old.
> >
> >>How will this influence the longevity of the print?
> >
> >I don't know.  I'm guessing it'll have no effect on the fade rate. 
> >
> >The buffering in the mat board might actually help the paper.  
Epson
> >Semimatte is rated at ">200 years" by Wilhelm, but my acid test pen
> >indicates the paper base is only weakly buffered, unlike the other 
Epson
> >"Premium" RC papers, which test as quite "acid free."  (There may 
be a

> >reason Epson Semimatte is relatively cheap.)
> >
> >Let us know if you run into any problems with dry mounting.
> >
> >Paul
> >www.PaulRoark.com
> 
> -- 
> Atelier Pictoform
> Chia N-Löfqvist & Hans Nohlberg
> Hedåsgatan 5
> SE-412 53 Göteborg
> SWEDEN
> 
> +46  (0)31181414
> Mobile: 073 974 44 24
> (Besök/visit Hedåsgatan 6)
> 
> http://www.pictoform.nu
> http://www.etsabild.se
> http://www.artphotocollection.com

Where do I find information about SEAL ?? 
Anyone how know their web address?




--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "scott_now_coming" 
<scott_now_coming@y...> wrote:

> 
> Hans,
> 
> Seal makes a mounting tisse for color ("C"-prints) paper that 
> is "low" temperature. I think it in the 150-160 F range.
> 
> That would be the way to go, probably.
> 
> There's also something called "Color Mount", now that I think about 
> it.
> 
> Looks like I may have a use for my dry mount press after all. Besides 
> a boat anchor! LOL!
> 
> Scott

Almost any photo store will have the dry mounting materials.  The problem is
that it takes a press, and those cost a bit and take up a lot of counter
space.   I have and use one, but I wish there were good alternatives.

Does anyone know if there are good, archival cold mounting systems?

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 

-----Original Message-----
From: bjornaagedk [mailto:reklamefoto@...] 
Sent: Monday, January 03, 2005 8:44 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Mounting, heat and ink



Where do I find information about SEAL ?? 
Anyone how know their web address?




--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "scott_now_coming" 
<scott_now_coming@y...> wrote:
> 
> Hans,
> 
> Seal makes a mounting tisse for color ("C"-prints) paper that 
> is "low" temperature. I think it in the 150-160 F range.
> 
> That would be the way to go, probably.
> 
> There's also something called "Color Mount", now that I think about 
> it.
> 
> Looks like I may have a use for my dry mount press after all. Besides 
> a boat anchor! LOL!
> 
> Scott






Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
they are often being updated.

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printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from
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Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files section:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/

BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND
"MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU
FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY
DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS,
GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  "OWNER" AND
"MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE
POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY
TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR
ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY
THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER
MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
 
Yahoo! Groups Links

This is obviously not about BW printing, but is related nonetheless.

I'm trying to get all my supplies together for proper acrhival framing. 
  I got the archival mats and mounting stuff together.  But what about 
sealing the frame?  I have seen a kind of kraft paper taped onto the 
back of many frames.  What kind of paper is that?

thanks,
allan chen
-- 
Technical Projects Specialist
Academic Computing
Stanford University
v - (650) 996-0546
f - (650) 725-4685

I've been taping my 8x8" photos to the backing board with an 
archivaql tape.

I saw some 30x40 and 40x60" prints at a gallery and the owner told me 
he uses archival tape.

The prints did look real nice framed.

Scott

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> Almost any photo store will have the dry mounting materials.  The 
problem is
> that it takes a press, and those cost a bit and take up a lot of 
counter
> space.   I have and use one, but I wish there were good 
alternatives.
> 
> Does anyone know if there are good, archival cold mounting systems?
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com 
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: bjornaagedk [mailto:reklamefoto@m...] 
> Sent: Monday, January 03, 2005 8:44 AM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Mounting, heat and ink
> 
> 
> 
> Where do I find information about SEAL ?? 
> Anyone how know their web address?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --- In 
DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "scott_now_coming" 
> <scott_now_coming@y...> wrote:
> > 
> > Hans,
> > 
> > Seal makes a mounting tisse for color ("C"-prints) paper that 
> > is "low" temperature. I think it in the 150-160 F range.
> > 
> > That would be the way to go, probably.
> > 
> > There's also something called "Color Mount", now that I think 
about 
> > it.
> > 
> > Looks like I may have a use for my dry mount press after all. 
Besides 
> > a boat anchor! LOL!
> > 
> > Scott
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
resources as
> they are often being updated.
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you 
wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting 
this same
> page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages 
to keep
> them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or 
flames.
> Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
> membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital 
B&W
> printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be 
removed from
> the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group 
Owner and
> Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files 
section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> 
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE 
PRINT
> YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND
> "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE 
LIABLE TO YOU
> FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR 
EXEMPLARY
> DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS,
> GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF 
THE  "OWNER" AND
> "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED 
OF THE
> POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE 
INABILITY
> TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED 
ACCESS TO OR
> ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR 
CONDUCT OF ANY
> THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY 
OTHER

> MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
>  
> Yahoo! Groups Links

Is he just using t-hinges?  exactly how is he mounting something that 
big with tape?

I use just hinges, but the biggest print I've done is "only" 13x19.  I 
printed a couple of 44x36 stuff lately, and I have no idea how I'd mount 
them if I were to do so.

allan

scott_now_coming wrote:
> 
> I've been taping my 8x8" photos to the backing board with an 
> archivaql tape.
> 
> I saw some 30x40 and 40x60" prints at a gallery and the owner told me 
> he uses archival tape.
> 
> The prints did look real nice framed.
> 
> Scott
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 
> <paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> 
>>Almost any photo store will have the dry mounting materials.  The 
> 
> problem is
> 
>>that it takes a press, and those cost a bit and take up a lot of 
> 
> counter
> 
>>space.   I have and use one, but I wish there were good 
> 
> alternatives.
> 
>>Does anyone know if there are good, archival cold mounting systems?
>>
>>Paul
>>www.PaulRoark.com 
>>
>>
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: bjornaagedk [mailto:reklamefoto@m...] 
>>Sent: Monday, January 03, 2005 8:44 AM
>>To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
>>Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Mounting, heat and ink
>>
>>
>>
>>Where do I find information about SEAL ?? 
>>Anyone how know their web address?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>--- In 
> 
> DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "scott_now_coming" 
> 
>><scott_now_coming@y...> wrote:
>>
>>>Hans,
>>>
>>>Seal makes a mounting tisse for color ("C"-prints) paper that 
>>>is "low" temperature. I think it in the 150-160 F range.
>>>
>>>That would be the way to go, probably.
>>>
>>>There's also something called "Color Mount", now that I think 
> 
> about 
> 
>>>it.
>>>
>>>Looks like I may have a use for my dry mount press after all. 
> 
> Besides 
> 
>>>a boat anchor! LOL!
>>>
>>>Scott
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
> 
> resources as
> 
>>they are often being updated.
>>
>>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>>
>>If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you 
> 
> wish to
> 
>>unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting 
> 
> this same
> 
>>page.
>>
>>Please follow these basic guidelines:
>>- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages 
> 
> to keep
> 
>>them short.
>>- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or 
> 
> flames.
> 
>>Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
>>membership without notice.
>>- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital 
> 
> B&W
> 
>>printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be 
> 
> removed from
> 
>>the membership.
>>- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
>>guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group 
> 
> Owner and
> 
>>Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files 
> 
> section:
> 
>>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
>>
>>BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE 
> 
> PRINT
> 
>>YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND
>>"MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE 
> 
> LIABLE TO YOU
> 
>>FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR 
> 
> EXEMPLARY
> 
>>DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS,
>>GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF 
> 
> THE  "OWNER" AND
> 
>>"MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED 
> 
> OF THE
> 
>>POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE 
> 
> INABILITY
> 
>>TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED 
> 
> ACCESS TO OR
> 
>>ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR 
> 
> CONDUCT OF ANY
> 
>>THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY 
> 
> OTHER
> 
>>MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
>> 
>>Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as they are often being updated.
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and Moderators. See \ufffdGroup Topic, Rules and Guidelines\ufffd in the Files section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> 
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE \ufffdOWNER\ufffd AND \ufffdMODERATORS\ufffd OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  \ufffdOWNER\ufffd AND \ufffdMODERATORS\ufffd OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
>  
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 

-- 
Technical Projects Specialist
Academic Computing
Stanford University
v - (650) 996-0546
f - (650) 725-4685

Yes, all he used was a hinge.

I usually leave a good size border and then use an archival tape 
called "Framer's Tape II". I've had this for quite a while. I assume 
it's still made. I bought it at a local art supply store.

I make a hinged mat, place a print inside and close the mat. I adjust 
the print to my liking.

Then I set something light on top of the print (a little bean bag 
works great. So would an eraser. You're just trying to keep the print 
in place so you can tape it.). Next I open the mat.

On the backing board, I tape one side and then pull it tight and tape 
the other side.

I see a need to only tape on two sides.

I couldn't find a Seal website.

But B&H sells SEAL products.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?
O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=46629&is=REG


Scott


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Allan Chen 
<kaiyen@s...> wrote:
> Is he just using t-hinges?  exactly how is he mounting something 
that 
> big with tape?
> 
> I use just hinges, but the biggest print I've done is "only" 
13x19.  I 
> printed a couple of 44x36 stuff lately, and I have no idea how I'd 
mount 
> them if I were to do so.
> 
> allan
> 
> scott_now_coming wrote:
> > 
> > I've been taping my 8x8" photos to the backing board with an 
> > archivaql tape.
> > 
> > I saw some 30x40 and 40x60" prints at a gallery and the owner 
told me 
> > he uses archival tape.
> > 
> > The prints did look real nice framed.
> > 
> > Scott
> > 
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 
> > <paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> > 
> >>Almost any photo store will have the dry mounting materials.  The 
> > 
> > problem is
> > 
> >>that it takes a press, and those cost a bit and take up a lot of 
> > 
> > counter
> > 
> >>space.   I have and use one, but I wish there were good 
> > 
> > alternatives.
> > 
> >>Does anyone know if there are good, archival cold mounting 
systems?
> >>
> >>Paul
> >>www.PaulRoark.com 
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>-----Original Message-----
> >>From: bjornaagedk [mailto:reklamefoto@m...] 
> >>Sent: Monday, January 03, 2005 8:44 AM
> >>To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> >>Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Mounting, heat and ink
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>Where do I find information about SEAL ?? 
> >>Anyone how know their web address?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>--- In 
> > 
> > DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "scott_now_coming" 
> > 
> >><scott_now_coming@y...> wrote:
> >>
> >>>Hans,
> >>>
> >>>Seal makes a mounting tisse for color ("C"-prints) paper that 
> >>>is "low" temperature. I think it in the 150-160 F range.
> >>>
> >>>That would be the way to go, probably.
> >>>
> >>>There's also something called "Color Mount", now that I think 
> > 
> > about 
> > 
> >>>it.
> >>>
> >>>Looks like I may have a use for my dry mount press after all. 
> > 
> > Besides 
> > 
> >>>a boat anchor! LOL!
> >>>
> >>>Scott
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
> > 
> > resources as
> > 
> >>they are often being updated.
> >>
> >>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >>
> >>If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you 
> > 
> > wish to
> > 
> >>unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting 
> > 
> > this same
> > 
> >>page.
> >>
> >>Please follow these basic guidelines:
> >>- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier 
messages 
> > 
> > to keep
> > 
> >>them short.
> >>- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or 
> > 
> > flames.
> > 
> >>Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
> >>membership without notice.
> >>- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of 
digital 
> > 
> > B&W
> > 
> >>printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be 
> > 
> > removed from
> > 
> >>the membership.
> >>- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules 
and
> >>guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the 
group 
> > 
> > Owner and
> > 
> >>Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files 
> > 
> > section:
> > 
> >>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> >>
> >>BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, 
THE 
> > 
> > PRINT
> > 
> >>YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" 
AND
> >>"MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE 
> > 
> > LIABLE TO YOU
> > 
> >>FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR 
> > 
> > EXEMPLARY
> > 
> >>DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF 
PROFITS,
> >>GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF 
> > 
> > THE  "OWNER" AND
> > 
> >>"MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN 
ADVISED 
> > 
> > OF THE
> > 
> >>POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE 
> > 
> > INABILITY
> > 
> >>TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED 
> > 
> > ACCESS TO OR
> > 
> >>ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR 
> > 
> > CONDUCT OF ANY
> > 
> >>THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY 
> > 
> > OTHER
> > 
> >>MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> >> 
> >>Yahoo! Groups Links
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
resources as they are often being updated.
> > 
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> > 
> > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you 
wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by 
visiting this same page.
> > 
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier 
messages to keep them short.
> > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or 
flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed 
from the membership without notice.
> > - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of 
digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may 
be removed from the membership.
> > - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules 
and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the 
group Owner and Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" 
in the Files section:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> > 
> > BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, 
THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT 
THE "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP 
SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, 
SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT 
LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER 
INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL 
BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF 
SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE 
THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR 
ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT 
OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) 
ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.

> >  
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > 
> > 
> 
> -- 
> Technical Projects Specialist
> Academic Computing
> Stanford University
> v - (650) 996-0546
> f - (650) 725-4685

> On the backing board, I tape one side and then pull it tight and tape 
> the other side.
> 
> I see a need to only tape on two sides.

So you're actually taping the print _down_ onto the backing board?  So 
the tape is on the front of the print, down onto the backing board?

allan


-- 
Technical Projects Specialist
Academic Computing
Stanford University
v - (650) 996-0546
f - (650) 725-4685

Seal Dry Product info can be found at:
http://www.southtrendcorp.com/seal/contents/dry_mount.htm

Earl Olsen
www.earlolsen.com

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "bjornaagedk" <reklamefoto@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, January 03, 2005 8:43 AM
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Mounting, heat and ink


Where do I find information about SEAL ??
Anyone how know their web address?

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "scott_now_coming"
<scott_now_coming@y...> wrote:
>
> Hans,
>
> Seal makes a mounting tisse for color ("C"-prints) paper that
> is "low" temperature. I think it in the 150-160 F range.
>
> That would be the way to go, probably.
>
> There's also something called "Color Mount", now that I think about
> it.
>
> Looks like I may have a use for my dry mount press after all. Besides
> a boat anchor! LOL!
>
> Scott






Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
they are often being updated.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.

Please follow these basic guidelines:
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
membership without notice.
- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from
the membership.
- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and
Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files section:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/

BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND
"MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU
FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY
DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS,
GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  "OWNER" AND
"MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE
POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY
TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR
ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY
THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER
MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.

Yahoo! Groups Links

Which SEAL Dry mounting tissue do you use?

I have experienced colors shifting towards green when color inkjet prints (both 
Ultrachrome and MIS archival) is heated in a vacuum press. 
Even with low temperatures (40-50 C) the problem exist and makes this way of mounting 
unusable.

BUT - with the BW prints printed with MIS BW ink, there is no color shifting.

Bjorn




--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Earl Olsen" <emolsen@w...> 
wrote:

> Seal Dry Product info can be found at:
> http://www.southtrendcorp.com/seal/contents/dry_mount.htm
> 
> Earl Olsen
> www.earlolsen.com

Yes, that is correct.

Scott

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Allan Chen 
<kaiyen@s...> wrote:
> > On the backing board, I tape one side and then pull it tight and 
tape 
> > the other side.
> > 
> > I see a need to only tape on two sides.
> 
> So you're actually taping the print _down_ onto the backing board?  
So 

> the tape is on the front of the print, down onto the backing board?
> 
> allan
> 
> 
> -- 
> Technical Projects Specialist
> Academic Computing
> Stanford University
> v - (650) 996-0546
> f - (650) 725-4685

It's usually listed in stores as "Seal/Biengang" and I know it's available from B&H

Angelo


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "bjornaagedk" 
<reklamefoto@m...> wrote:

> 
> Where do I find information about SEAL ?? 
> Anyone how know their web address?
>

Hi,
I'm currently preparing some framed images for local exhibition using my stock frames.

Some of the backing boards had got defaced as they've been used so much, so what I've done is to buy some quite thin, bright white cardboard to put over the old backing boards so that the backs are pristine.

I wondered whether such a practice could be unwise due to acid eventually migrating through the formacote or foamcore backing boards and into the photo paper. I'm hoping that the formacote or foamcore is thick enough for this not to happen - but don't have any experience to base this hope on. If so, I could perhaps put a layer of tin foil or polypropylene between the two. 

When businesses reopen after the xmas break it might just be easier to buy some large sheets of acid-free cardboard but I want to get these pictures on display before the end of the holiday season.

thanks,
Richard
--
Backroads Essay:
http://picasaweb.google.com/rsmallfield/TheBackroadsOfWarkworth
Greeting Cards available for purchase:
http://picasaweb.google.com/rsmallfield/GreetingCards
http://photos.smallfield.vze.com
http://smallfield.vze.com

   "Everything that can be invented has been invented." 
   --Charles H. Duell, Commissioner, U.S. Office of 
   Patents, 1899

Just to pass on something from my experiences. In approx 1973 I drymounted some photos onto shirt cardboard..for those not as old as I ,  it was the cardboard in laundered shirts which , at the time were folded around the cardboard. I found two of them a year ago and  there was no sign of acid leach or yellowing. They were printed on fiber based paper and I washed the hell out of all my prints. I sent them to the people who were in them so do'nt have them to show. 
     I am not sure if this will help...maybe I was just lucky and also this was before recycled papers and cardboards. 
    Instead of the bright white cardboard, maybe if you backed it with some inexpensive photo paper that has no acid in it.
  Frank in NJ

Richard Smallfield <r.smallfield@...> wrote:
          Hi,
I'm currently preparing some framed images for local exhibition using my stock frames.

Some of the backing boards had got defaced as they've been used so much, so what I've done is to buy some quite thin, bright white cardboard to put over the old backing boards so that the backs are pristine.

I wondered whether such a practice could be unwise due to acid eventually migrating through the formacote or foamcore backing boards and into the photo paper. I'm hoping that the formacote or foamcore is thick enough for this not to happen - but don't have any experience to base this hope on. If so, I could perhaps put a layer of tin foil or polypropylene between the two. 

When businesses reopen after the xmas break it might just be easier to buy some large sheets of acid-free cardboard but I want to get these pictures on display before the end of the holiday season.

thanks,
Richard
--
Backroads Essay:
http://picasaweb.google.com/rsmallfield/TheBackroadsOfWarkworth
Greeting Cards available for purchase:
http://picasaweb.google.com/rsmallfield/GreetingCards
http://photos.smallfield.vze.com
http://smallfield.vze.com

"Everything that can be invented has been invented." 
--Charles H. Duell, Commissioner, U.S. Office of 
Patents, 1899 



                         


"The luckiest dogs are those with clipped tails....they're the ones who won't be chasing their own arses."
       
---------------------------------
Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.  Try it now.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ha. my workmate made my first prints and mounted them on department store cardboard - white smooth surfaced and dark gray ruff, etc.. I don't see any problems after 30 years.

gar

*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********

On 12/30/07 at 2:27 PM Frank Jay wrote:

>Just to pass on something from my experiences. In approx 1973 I
>drymounted some photos onto shirt cardboard..for those not as old as I , 
>it was the cardboard in laundered shirts which , at the time were folded
>around the cardboard. I found two of them a year ago and  there was no
>sign of acid leach or yellowing. They were printed on fiber based paper
>and I washed the hell out of all my prints. I sent them to the people who
>were in them so do'nt have them to show. 
>     I am not sure if this will help...maybe I was just lucky and also
>this was before recycled papers and cardboards. 
>    Instead of the bright white cardboard, maybe if you backed it with
>some inexpensive photo paper that has no acid in it.
>  Frank in NJ
>
>Richard Smallfield <r.smallfield@paradise.net.nz> wrote:
>          Hi,
>I'm currently preparing some framed images for local exhibition using my
>stock frames.
>
>Some of the backing boards had got defaced as they've been used so much,
>so what I've done is to buy some quite thin, bright white cardboard to put
>over the old backing boards so that the backs are pristine.
>
>I wondered whether such a practice could be unwise due to acid eventually
>migrating through the formacote or foamcore backing boards and into the
>photo paper. I'm hoping that the formacote or foamcore is thick enough for
>this not to happen - but don't have any experience to base this hope on.
>If so, I could perhaps put a layer of tin foil or polypropylene between
>the two. 
>
>When businesses reopen after the xmas break it might just be easier to buy
>some large sheets of acid-free cardboard but I want to get these pictures
>on display before the end of the holiday season.
>
>thanks,
>Richard
>--
>Backroads Essay:
>http://picasaweb.google.com/rsmallfield/TheBackroadsOfWarkworth
>Greeting Cards available for purchase:
>http://picasaweb.google.com/rsmallfield/GreetingCards
>http://photos.smallfield.vze.com
>http://smallfield.vze.com
>
>"Everything that can be invented has been invented." 
>--Charles H. Duell, Commissioner, U.S. Office of 
>Patents, 1899 
>
>
>
>                         
>
>
>"The luckiest dogs are those with clipped tails....they're the ones who
>won't be chasing their own arses."
>       
>---------------------------------
>Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.  Try it
>now.
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
>they are often being updated.
>
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
>If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
>unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
>page.
>
>Please follow these basic guidelines:
>- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
>them short.
>- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
>Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
>membership without notice.
>- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
>printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from
>the membership.
>- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
>guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner
>and Moderators. See “Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines” in the Files
>section:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
>
>BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
>YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE “OWNER” AND
>“MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO
>YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR
>EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF
>PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE 
>“OWNER” AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN
>ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE
>OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii)
>UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii)
>STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
>YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE
>PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> 
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

Since you are now talking about (at least I assume you are talking about)
digital B&W inkjet prints making comparisons to silver gelatin image
stability on board of questionable pedigree is not a good idea. Archival
framing is not particularly cheap or fast. I believe that you'll want to
give some thought into foam core as a backer. How long do you plan on these
images staying in those frames? Are you looking for cosmetic fixes or long
lasting answers?  It would be nice to see some information come out that
list the variety of ink jet papers used over the last 5 years and see what
pH range they sit. Long term framing would need to account for  humidity
changes, pH changes, ozone and UV. Over matte, piece, adhesive or hinges,
substrate, mount board, barrier, backing is the order that I use for long
term archival framing. 

 

It sounds that you reuse your material several times. I would get some high
quality acid free single ply board to use as a barrier and double sided tape
to hold the final barrier to your frame. 

 

 

Eric Neilsen Photography

4101 Commerce Street

Suite 9

Dallas, TX 75226

http://e.neilsen.home.att.net

http://ericneilsenphotography.com

Skype ejprinter

  _____  

From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gary
Weaver
Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2007 4:38 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] archival framing

 

Ha. my workmate made my first prints and mounted them on department store
cardboard - white smooth surfaced and dark gray ruff, etc.. I don't see any
problems after 30 years.

gar

*********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********

On 12/30/07 at 2:27 PM Frank Jay wrote:

>Just to pass on something from my experiences. In approx 1973 I
>drymounted some photos onto shirt cardboard..for those not as old as I , 
>it was the cardboard in laundered shirts which , at the time were folded
>around the cardboard. I found two of them a year ago and there was no
>sign of acid leach or yellowing. 

 

 

> wrote:
> Hi,
>I'm currently preparing some framed images for local exhibition using my
>stock frames.
>
>Some of the backing boards had got defaced as they've been used so much,
>so what I've done is to buy some quite thin, bright white cardboard to put
>over the old backing boards so that the backs are pristine.

>
>thanks,
>Richard
>--

 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I always wondered why most folks are concerned about archival framing when most decorative paper art only stays on the wall for 2.3 years. (I got that from Paper Art magazine, issue unknown and forgotten.) Those of us whose work is in the archives of a museum or a library that loans out their archival paper art for display most likely need to worry. But I wonder how much of a concern it should be for those of us who sell our work for home decor or hang it in our own homes. 
    As Eric mentioned to frame with full archival specs,  is expensive and time consuming.Not only do you have to be concerned with all Eric mentions, there is also the concern of the frame itself and the paint, lacquers, stains and even the wood used to make it. 
      In the back of Black and White magazine is a place that sells the complete framing package and claim to be archival. The frames have a gallery look and the prices are not that bad considering the materials used. . But then again, they sell volume and are not buying the frames and materials piece by piece or in small quantities as we might.
     I was not aware that the comparison between silver prints from a darkroom and an inkjet print was not a fair comparison to make. But after thinking about Erik's statement it does make sense. It is like comparing apples to oranges. What does disturb me the most about the matte inkjet papers is the yellowing that can  happen when the OBA's wear away , for lack of a better term. I make neutral prints and enjoy making neutral prints and really  don't want them turning yellow, or cream or sepia. But from Clayton Jones' questioning of the paper manufacturers, it seems they are not too concerned about it. 
     just my 2 cents.
  Frank in NJ
Eric Neilsen <e.neilsen2@...> wrote:
          Since you are now talking about (at least I assume you are talking about)
digital B&W inkjet prints making comparisons to silver gelatin image
stability on board of questionable pedigree is not a good idea. Archival
framing is not particularly cheap or fast. I believe that you'll want to
give some thought into foam core as a backer. How long do you plan on these
images staying in those frames? Are you looking for cosmetic fixes or long
lasting answers? It would be nice to see some information come out that
list the variety of ink jet papers used over the last 5 years and see what
pH range they sit. Long term framing would need to account for humidity
changes, pH changes, ozone and UV. Over matte, piece, adhesive or hinges,
substrate, mount board, barrier, backing is the order that I use for long
term archival framing. 

It sounds that you reuse your material several times. I would get some high
quality acid free single ply board to use as a barrier and double sided tape
to hold the final barrier to your frame. 

Eric Neilsen Photography

4101 Commerce Street

Suite 9

Dallas, TX 75226

http://e.neilsen.home.att.net

http://ericneilsenphotography.com

Skype ejprinter

_____ 

From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gary
Weaver
Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2007 4:38 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] archival framing

Ha. my workmate made my first prints and mounted them on department store
cardboard - white smooth surfaced and dark gray ruff, etc.. I don't see any
problems after 30 years.

gar

*********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********

On 12/30/07 at 2:27 PM Frank Jay wrote:

>Just to pass on something from my experiences. In approx 1973 I
>drymounted some photos onto shirt cardboard..for those not as old as I , 
>it was the cardboard in laundered shirts which , at the time were folded
>around the cardboard. I found two of them a year ago and there was no
>sign of acid leach or yellowing. 

> wrote:
> Hi,
>I'm currently preparing some framed images for local exhibition using my
>stock frames.
>
>Some of the backing boards had got defaced as they've been used so much,
>so what I've done is to buy some quite thin, bright white cardboard to put
>over the old backing boards so that the backs are pristine.

>
>thanks,
>Richard
>--

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                         


"The luckiest dogs are those with clipped tails....they're the ones who won't be chasing their own arses."
       
---------------------------------
Never miss a thing.   Make Yahoo your homepage.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Eric Neilsen"
<e.neilsen2@...> wrote:

...
> give some thought into foam core as a backer.

I've wondered about whether there might be outgassing of the foam and
differential expansion between the foam core and matte print.

If there is differential expansion, due for example to humidity changes,
I think the print might show more waviness if it is just mounted with a
couple of tapes at the top.

Paul

www.PaulRoark.com <http://www.PaulRoark.com>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Paul I have not seen an issue with dimensional stability. You should not be
cutting your matte, backer, substrate, etc too close to the size of the
opening. Just like laying a tile floor, you need to allow for a bit of
growth and shrinkage. 

 

I don't think that OBA in a closed environment is going to show that much
change over time of several years, even up to 50. No data here to quote but
just a feel.  I'd be much more concerned with interaction between the
coating, internal paper make up, and inks and sprays, before I'd worry too
much about out gassing of the foam either. The more closed you make your
system, the more you need to figure out all the possible interaction that
can internally take place; beyond my knowledge of conservation to be sure. 

 

I forget if it was this list or Wide Format, but someone posted a link to
the Library of Congress site about archival framing. ???   I may be missing
a bit or a byte on  that memory. 

 

 

Happy new year!   may your printer never clog, your memory not need an up
grade : )  and your ink always land where you want it ; ) 

 

Eric     

 

 

Eric Neilsen Photography

4101 Commerce Street

Suite 9

Dallas, TX 75226

http://e.neilsen.home.att.net

http://ericneilsenphotography.com

Skype ejprinter

  _____  

From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of pr_roark
Sent: Monday, December 31, 2007 11:36 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] archival framing

 



--- In DigitalBlackandWhit
<mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint%40yahoogroups.com>
eThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Eric Neilsen"
<e.neilsen2@...> wrote:

...
> give some thought into foam core as a backer.

I've wondered about whether there might be outgassing of the foam and
differential expansion between the foam core and matte print.

If there is differential expansion, due for example to humidity changes,
I think the print might show more waviness if it is just mounted with a
couple of tapes at the top.

Paul

www.PaulRoark.com <http://www.PaulRoar <http://www.PaulRoark.com> k.com>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I don't mean to be a contrarian, but I would be very careful with anything
you frame. There is a big difference between materials in the open air and
materials inside a "closed" frame. I also believe that those who discussed
prints mounted on shirt cardboard and corrugate and the like have been very
lucky to have prints that have not stained. If it was me, I'd at least get
some archival sheet to cover the back with. YMMV.

Rick

Good points.

Part of the issue is that much of what is made to today is filled with additives - from gas to knife steel. And knife steel ain't what it used to be.

gar

*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********

On 12/31/07 at 4:23 PM Rick Colson wrote:

>I don't mean to be a contrarian, but I would be very careful with anything
>you frame. There is a big difference between materials in the open air and
>materials inside a "closed" frame. I also believe that those who discussed
>prints mounted on shirt cardboard and corrugate and the like have been very
>lucky to have prints that have not stained. If it was me, I'd at least get
>some archival sheet to cover the back with. YMMV.
>
>Rick
>
>
>
>
>Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
>they are often being updated.
>
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
>If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
>unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
>page.
>
>Please follow these basic guidelines:
>- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
>them short.
>- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
>Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
>membership without notice.
>- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
>printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from
>the membership.
>- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
>guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner
>and Moderators. See �Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines� in the Files
>section:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
>
>BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
>YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE �OWNER� AND
>�MODERATORS� OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO
>YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR
>EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF
>PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE 
>�OWNER� AND �MODERATORS� OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN
>ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE
>OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii)
>UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii)
>STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
>YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE
>PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> 
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

Hello Frank,

>What does disturb me the most about the matte inkjet papers is the 
>yellowing that can  happen when the OBA's wear away , for lack of a 
>better term. I make neutral prints and enjoy making neutral prints
>and really  don't want them turning yellow, or cream or sepia. But
>from Clayton Jones' questioning of the paper manufacturers, it seems
>they are not too concerned about it. 

In addition to those quotes, it's a demonstrable fact that OBAs are
not the same in all papers.  EEM is probably the worst offender,
turning yellow in a matter of weeks.  Obviously whatever OBA it's
using is short lived.  At the other end are bright white OBA papers
such as Condor BW and Kayenta, plus bright off-white papers like VFA
and HPR that I've had laying around unprotected for several years,
some getting direct sunlight, that haven't yellowed.  Manufacturers
have stated that some papers have OBAs only in the coatings, some in
the paper as well, and in varying amounts and types.

The bottom line is we don't know exactly what OBAs any paper has or
how much or how it's used.  If that's too freaky to contemplate then
avoiding OBA papers is the obvious solution.  I usually lean more
toward the practical reality than the theoretical and I use the above
mentioned papers because they have proven not to yellow under tougher
than normal circumstances.  This point of view is influenced by the
many prints on bright white OBA-containing darkroom papers I have,
some over 20 years old, that haven't yellowed.

I agree with the others that the biggest danger is reacting to fumes
from paint, wallpaper, etc.  That makes the OBA issue seem
insignificant to me.

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Anyone looking into conservation framing should check out this 
organization.
http://www.artfacts.org/index.html

In the standards main is the most pertinent info. In the Articles are 
lots of things being discussed.

This is standards about matboard, paper and backers etc.
http://www.artfacts.org/standards/expmmb_2000.html

I used to set up my wire way too tight and learned a lot from this piece
http://www.artfacts.org/standards/frm_399.html

This article is about the effect of wood on cellulose paper products in 
a frame package.
http://www.artfacts.org/artinfo/articals/wood_pictureframes.html

Some is a little wordy but they are science guys trying to talk down to 
us. : )

Good luck,
Jerry

Hi Paul,
I was using archival foam core for a long time, because it's an easy  
way to "float" prints in the frame
as opposed to cutting mattes. The archival paper on both surfaces is  
attractive, although one has to
be satisfied with an off-white - I've yet to find one with white- 
white.  However, as you've brought up,
I'm wondering about outgassing from the foam, which can't be made any  
other way.

This, by no means, is scientific, but I have three large prints (40 X  
30) on Photo Rag framed as I
described above, and printed with Piezo Inks, which have been hanging  
on a wall with daylight,
but no direct sunlight, for about 5 or 6 years, and there has been  
zero change in tones in the
print or the backing foam core.

  So while that's encouraging, I'd love to see some solid evidence
one way or the other, and in the meantime have been using Gatorboard  
for backing on some
work I do for galleries who need exact size reproductions of old  
master paintings. The lab
who puts these together for me insists that Gatorboard is archival (I  
have to check that out for
myself), but in any event, they cold mount prints to the board and  
then frame them. That's
something I would never do with my personal work, so, as with so many  
other items in the
"new digital age", much in not resolved and most will change as we  
move along!

Best to all of you in the new year.

Clay Price



paul roak wrote:
...
 > give some thought into foam core as a backer.

I've wondered about whether there might be outgassing of the foam and
differential expansion between the foam core and matte print.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Clayton,
At 06:17 PM Tuesday 1/1/2008, you wrote:
>using is short lived. At the other end are bright white OBA papers
>such as Condor BW and Kayenta, plus bright off-white papers like VFA
>and HPR that I've had laying around unprotected for several years,
>some getting direct sunlight, that haven't yellowed.

Something I've never understood is how Wilhelm has always managed to give Ultrachrome prints on Epson Enhanced Matte and Watercolour Radiant White better longevity than prints on Epson Velvet Fine Art - which is totally against real-world experience. Enhanced Matte isn't even acid-free and my understanding is that the same goes for Watercolour Radiant White.

Can anyone please cast some light on this?

Richard  
--
Backroads Essay:
http://picasaweb.google.com/rsmallfield/TheBackroadsOfWarkworth
Greeting Cards available for purchase:
http://picasaweb.google.com/rsmallfield/GreetingCards
http://photos.smallfield.vze.com
http://smallfield.vze.com

   "Big egos are big shields for lots of empty space."
   --Diana Black

Some links:
http://www.artfacts.org/
http://www.wilhelm-research.com/
http://www.framedestination.com/picture_frame_mounting.html

There are different levels of archival and archival mounting is 
actually easier and less expensive then most other methods. 
Unfortunately, the material cost is higher.  If you are framing you 
own persona inkjet print for you house, then of course you have no 
need for anything archival. If you are selling limited edition framed 
prints for over $1000 then the framing should meet most of the 
archival standards.  When I say most, I mean that dry mounting would 
be considered acceptable as long as it is to an acid free substrate. 

The highest level of conservation archival framing's goal is to last 
forever. In that case, dry mounting is avoided because the substrate 
will become contaminated over time and if the print is not dry 
mounted then it can be replaced. 

All of the framing materials and print expand and contract at 
different rates over time. That is why in archival framing everything 
is left fairly loose. 

Foamcore can outgass although acid free foamcore is pretty safe, and 
Bainbridge Artcare foamcore is even safer. 

Wood frame moulding is not acid free and is therefore not archival. 
You can use frame sealing tape to help prevent acid from leaking into 
the print from the frame. Use of an acid free buffered mat will also 
help protect the print from the frame. 

Light and atmospheric pollutants also degrade prints. That is why UV 
glass or acrylic is so helpful in archival framing. A museum will 
also limit how much the artwork is actually exposed to any light at 
all and they will periodically reframe the artwork so that all of the 
components can be replaced.

Cheers,
Mark
President
Frame Destination, Inc.
http://www.framedestination.com/

I just remarked about Wilhelm giving better figures for EEM than VFA ... I just realised that my figures were for the older K2 not K3 UC inks.

Yet he gives the same figures for bare bulb as he does for under glass - which isn't my real-world experience for EEM or any other brightened paper.

Richard
--
Backroads Essay:
http://picasaweb.google.com/rsmallfield/TheBackroadsOfWarkworth
Greeting Cards available for purchase:
http://picasaweb.google.com/rsmallfield/GreetingCards
http://photos.smallfield.vze.com
http://smallfield.vze.com

   "The most absurd and reckless aspirations have
   Sometimes led to extraordinary results."

Hello Richard,

>Something I've never understood is how Wilhelm has always managed to
give Ultrachrome prints on Epson Enhanced Matte and Watercolour
Radiant White better longevity than prints on Epson Velvet Fine Art -
which is totally against real-world experience. Enhanced Matte isn't
even acid-free and my understanding is that the same goes for
Watercolour Radiant White.
>Can anyone please cast some light on this?

Well, speaking of casting light <g>, my guess is that W's tests are
conducted by exposing prints to a strong calibrated light source until
some degree of fading occurs and then interpolating the time it takes
into the number of years it would take to get that amount of exposure
under normal conditions.  Ink fading in reaction to light has no
relation to the paper being acid free or not (I think, someone correct
me if this is wrong).  Depending on the amount of acid present, it can
take anywhere from weeks (newspaper) to years before brownish yellow
acid stains appear.  So W's tests only tell us how long the ink/paper
combination will resist fading, not whether the paper is archival in
other ways.

Four things are often mixed together when discussing an ink/paper
combination's archivalness: the paper's fiber content, acid content,
OBA content and the ink's fade resistance.  But these are different
and not necessarily related things and need to be evaluated
individually.  

For example, EEM is alpha-cellulose, contains acid, contains
(apparently) a very short lived OBA, yet has very good fade
resistance.  I've got an EEM Eboni BO print that's been getting direct
sunlight on my window sill for over 4 years.  It's dingy looking from
losing it's whiteness but the ink hasn't faded (it's beginning to show
a bit of color shifting), and has no acid stains (that could take
years to show up).  That's probably why it rates high in W's tests. 

I'm guessing that something in VFA's coating (perhaps the more
permanent OBA) which reacts with the ink is probably what makes it
less resistant to UV fading than with EEM. Actually, while EEM gets
slightly better ratings for color prints, if you go to page 3 of 9 at
this link 
      http://www.wilhelm-research.com/epson/R2400.html

...where the chart is for ABW prints, it shows VFA getting higher
ratings than EEM.

Anyway, there's just a huge amount that we don't know and nobody will
tell us.  

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Wilhelm limites EEM to 110 years due to yellowing.  In the latest 9880
tests at http://www.wilhelm-research.com/epson/9880.html
<http://www.wilhelm-research.com/epson/9880.html>  he's a little less
clear what he's doing, but see footnote 13.

EEM, which used to be "Archival" matte and is now "Ultra Premium
Presentation Paper Matte" appears to be designed to do very well with
respect to fading, but not long term storage.  It really is for
presentation or display, not storage.

Paul

www.PaulRoark.com <http://www.PaulRoark.com>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thanks Clayton - so what you're saying is that he's testing fading and not colour shift from yellowing of the paper?

I'm amazed that Epson hasn't come up with a better cheap paper after all this time.

Richard

--
Backroads Essay:
http://picasaweb.google.com/rsmallfield/TheBackroadsOfWarkworth
Greeting Cards available for purchase:
http://picasaweb.google.com/rsmallfield/GreetingCards
http://photos.smallfield.vze.com
http://smallfield.vze.com

   "The man with a new idea is a crank until the idea succeeds."
   --Mark Twain

Hello again,

> Thanks Clayton - so what you're saying is that he's testing fading
>and not colour shift from yellowing of the paper?

Well,...that's not exactly what I said.  I was responding to your
question about why a non acid free paper gets a good rating.  An acid
containing paper isn't going to show acid stains for some years, lots
longer than his tests take.  So regardless of what he's testing for,
acid stains can't be a factor in his results.  That was the main point. 


>...colour shift from yellowing of the paper...

I'm not sure if by this you mean changing the over all look of the
print, or the ink tone color shifting because of paper yellowing.  My
observations are that the yellowing does not cause ink tone color
shifting, but certainly the look of the print changes.  Paper color
visually affects everything from highlights down to full coverage.  My
4 year old EEM Eboni BO print looks dingy, but the exposed ink has the
same color and density as that under the cover strip.

I don't really know if his testing takes paper color changes into
account.  I suspect not because if he did then EEM probably wouldn't
have scored so high because it's the worst offender.  So my guess is
that he's only testing for fading.  


Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

What does one do if one wants to print neutral  prints and wants to have them keep the tone. Should they be printed on papers with no OBA's, acid etc, and just live with the warmer tone of the non-whitened paper or is there an alternative.
   
  Also, does this yellowing happen with lustre papers or just with mattes.
  thanks
  Frank

Clayton Jones <cj@...> wrote: My
4 year old EEM Eboni BO print looks dingy, but the exposed ink has the
same color and density as that under the cover strip.




"The luckiest dogs are those with clipped tails....they're the ones who won't be chasing their own arses."
       
---------------------------------
Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.  Try it now.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hello Frank,

>What does one do if one wants to print neutral prints and wants to 
>have them keep the tone. Should they be printed on papers with no 
>OBA's, acid etc, and just live with the warmer tone of the 
>non-whitened paper or is there an alternative.

There is a widely accepted assumption that any paper with OBAs is
going to yellow.  But experience shows that that is not necessarily
true.  There are different kinds of OBAs, they are applied in
different ways and in different amounts according to formulas that
paper makers don't divulge.  There's a huge amount we don't know, so
we have to judge each paper individually.  

Two of the most popular and best dmax matte papers, HPR and VFA, have
OBAs.  Hahnemuhle has stated that HPR has just a tiny amount of OBAs
in the coating to ensure uniformity across batches (or something to
that effect).  I've never seen any OBA data about VFA.  Technically
HPR has OBAs, though in miniscule amounts.  Should that paper be
judged the same as one with greater amounts?  I did some research on
this a couple of years ago (please see the the OBA part of article #5
at the link below for details).  Paper makers and vendors told me that
they feel the OBA issue is overblown.

Diana York of Hawk Mtn papers said their paper fibers are white to
begin with, so any OBA "burn off" doesn't result in yellowing, only a
slight lessening of brightness.  My own tests with Condor BW, one of
their bright white papers, has borne this out.  Prints that have lain
around unprotected for several years, some getting bright daylight
and/or fluorescent light exposure, look only slightly less bright next
to a new sheet, and no less white.  Same for HPR and VFA prints and
many others I've tested over the past 5+ years.  EEM is the only paper
I've experience any real yellowing with.  I've never seen any hard
test data saying that HPR or VFA yellowed by X amount over Y time with
Z amount of exposure, etc.  From my reading it seems they are more
likely to yellow from exposure to chemical fumes than anything else.

It's possible they do yellow slightly over a long period of time, I'm
not saying they don't.  But HPR has been in use for a long time, and
during the almost 6 years I've been involved in this I have never once
seen a print with, heard an actual complaint of, or read scientific
evidence of OBA-related yellowing. 

A question I have is why use them if they're in such small amounts as
to make almost no visible difference when they burn off?  I suspect
the answer is marketing realities: without them their paper would look
dull next to their competitors.  Most people comparing samples would
choose the brighter paper and they'd lose market share.  Also, as H.
stated, they want uniformity across different production batches. 
Just think what kind of reviews HPR would get if one batch looked
different from another.  Over time the prints change ever so slightly
and slowly and nobody ever notices.  That's just a guess, but I bet
it's not far from the truth.

Bottom line is we don't know what kind or how much OBAs are in any
paper.  If this bothers you then you'll just have to avoid using OBA
papers (but you'll miss out on some of the best).  Not all non-OBA
papers are "natural" colored.  In article #5 at the link below have a
look at the Innova non-OBA papers.  Their color is very much like HPR
and VFA, somewhere between pure white and "natural", really beautiful
papers (but less dmax unfortunately).


>Also, does this yellowing happen with lustre papers or just with 
>mattes.

I have little experience with the glossy papers so I can't comment. 
My feeling though is that the same principles apply: judge each paper
individually.  If a paper has OBAs then look for real evidence of
yellowing (hard data, user reports, whatever) and base your decision
on that.  I use HPR, VFA, Condor BW and others with confidence because
they are widely used, have been around a long time, and I've yet to
find any evidence of their yellowing.

(also please see my similar OBA post of July 6, 2007)

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Hi Frank,
as I said in a previous post, I'm currently doing window tests of two non oba papers and four brightened ones. All of the bright papers have gone to a natural cream colour similar to the unbrightened papers I'm testing (PremierArt Hot Press and Entrada Natural). They are EEM, PremierArt Matte BW, Aurora Bright and Entrada Bright. But the PremierArt Matte BW has yellowed to a far smaller degree than the other three. It's halfway between bright-white and natural; the others are now like a cream non-brightened paper.

Velvet Fine Art and PhotoRag I have loved in the past, but prefer double-sided papers these days as it saves money when proofing - and Entrada Natural is gorgeous, double-sided and unbrightened, so I now use that - though it is a lot less bright than the other two. I wouldn't hesitate to use Velvet or PhotoRag again if I wanted the semi-bright look - I assume they have far less brightening than any of the really bright papers I'm testing (like Entrada Bright), as they are no where near as white. One day use Epson Velvet again and then I'll do some window tests. (I'd be interested in testing Watercolour Radiant White one day, too.)

I suppose the 'alternative' you are seeking is a semi-bright paper like PhotoRag or Epson Velvet ... but you never know, that natural unbrightened look might grow on you:-)

Good luck,
Richard

At 11:29 AM Thursday 1/3/2008, you wrote:
>What does one do if one wants to print neutral prints and wants to have them keep the tone. Should they be printed on papers with no OBA's, acid etc, and just live with the warmer tone of the non-whitened paper or is there an alternative.
>
>Also, does this yellowing happen with lustre papers or just with mattes.
>thanks
>Frank

--
Backroads Essay:
http://picasaweb.google.com/rsmallfield/TheBackroadsOfWarkworth
Greeting Cards available for purchase:
http://picasaweb.google.com/rsmallfield/GreetingCards
http://photos.smallfield.vze.com
http://smallfield.vze.com

   "The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of 
   all possible worlds, and the pessimist fears this is
   true." 
   --James Branch Cabell

Hello Richard,

>I'm currently doing window tests of two non oba papers and four
>brightened ones. All of the bright papers have gone to a natural
>cream colour similar to the unbrightened papers I'm testing...But 
>the PremierArt Matte BW has yellowed to a far smaller degree than 
>the other three.

It's good you're doing these tests and I hope you'll continue with
more papers.  We need more actual test results.  Can you give us more
information, like test conditions, how many days on the test before
change occurred, etc?  Anything you can add will help.

Hawk Mtn's Condor BW and Peregrine Smooth (used to be called Merlin
Smooth) seem very stable.  I just looked at a piece of Merlin that's
been on my window sill since September 2005 and compared it to a fresh
piece - can hardly tell any difference.  

On my kitchen bulletin board, under almost constant fluorescent light,
is a beautiful "Sada's Flowers" card you sent me (can't remember when
but says 2006 on the back) on Sparrowhawk which is still bright white.
It really looks nice amongst all the dingy EEM prints around it.  It's
got to have OBAs but they must be very stable.  One thing that has
changed a lot, very much like EEM only over a longer period, is
Innova's PhotoFiba.


>Velvet Fine Art and PhotoRag I have loved in the past...I assume 
>they have far less brightening than any of the really bright papers 
>I'm testing (like Entrada Bright), as they are no where near as white. 

I think they have less OBAs, or at least more stable long lasting
ones.  I haven't conducted tests but have had prints lying around for
several years that look good.  I have a 27 month old VFA test print
that's been hanging under almost constant flourescent light and is no
different than a fresh sheet.  But it hasn't gotten any sunlight so I
just moved it to the window sill with a cover strip and will report
any changes.  I can't find any old PR prints that have been exposed,
just ones in storage.

I'm sure these will change some, I just don't know how much and over
what period of time.  All these years people have talked about it but
I've never seen any actual test data nor heard anyone report a real
incident where there's been a problem or customer complaint or
anything.  My own experience shows the above papers to have changed
very little.  Maybe it just takes longer and nobody notices.

One question that comes to mind is say VFA and PR do eventually
lose some brightness and/or whiteness and become more like their
non-OBA bretheren, will their good dmax also suffer?  Doesn't seem to
on EEM.  If it does "unbrighten" but retains it's better dmax then is
it still more advantageous to use it instead of a non OBA paper with
lesser dmax, especially if it changes so slowly as to be unnoticeable?  
What do you think?

Are you going to test any of the fiber glossy papers?

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Hello Richard,

Frank's question re Wilhelm tests and your yellow testing got me more
curious and I've been searching around for more old prints to compare,
and also just reread some of his comments from his 2400 report.

In comment #6 he says, "If prints are...exposed to the open
atmosphere, low-level air pollutants may cause significant yellowing
within a relatively short period of time".  In another section he
mentions cooking fumes and low-level ozone as common household
pollutants that can affect prints.  

Most things I've stuck up around the house are EEM test prints, but I
found an old (possibly 5 yrs) small PR BO print in my kitchen area
that is more yellowed than any other I've ever seen around other parts
of the house.  It's so yellow I thought it was an EEM print at first,
but it's marked down in the corner.

I'm assuming it's caused by being in the kitchen area, and am
wondering about the testing idea I mentioned and how valid any yellow
testing setup could be without a controlled atmosphere.  How could
OBA-related light-exposure-only results be obtained?  I suppose
relative comparisons would be valid as long as all tests were done in
the same area away from obvious sources of fumes.  What do you think?

I'm taking down some of the old prints in the kitchen (tired of
looking at them anyway) and replacing with newer ones, most are on
VFA.  I'll be comparing them with ones on the living room window sill.

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Richard,

Doesn't Wilhelm test "print permanence", in other words, ink fade, not the
yellowing of the paper base?  Perhaps I'm wrong, but that was my
understanding.

Josh



On Jan 1, 2008 9:06 PM, Richard Smallfield <r.smallfield@...>
wrote:

> I just remarked about Wilhelm giving better figures for EEM than VFA ... I
> just realised that my figures were for the older K2 not K3 UC inks.
>
> Yet he gives the same figures for bare bulb as he does for under glass -
> which isn't my real-world experience for EEM or any other brightened paper.
>
> Richard
> --
> Backroads Essay:
> http://picasaweb.google.com/rsmallfield/TheBackroadsOfWarkworth
> Greeting Cards available for purchase:
> http://picasaweb.google.com/rsmallfield/GreetingCards
> http://photos.smallfield.vze.com
> http://smallfield.vze.com
>
>   "The most absurd and reckless aspirations have
>   Sometimes led to extraordinary results."
>
>
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Clayton,
my test prints were in the living room window - the kitchen is off the living room (without a door) so I guess that's not ideal. But - the test prints were all in identical conditions, so I think the comparative results are valid.

Richard

At 06:12 AM Friday 1/4/2008, you wrote:
>I suppose
>relative comparisons would be valid as long as all tests were done in
>the same area away from obvious sources of fumes. What do you think?
>
>I'm taking down some of the old prints in the kitchen (tired of
>looking at them anyway) and replacing with newer ones, most are on
>VFA. I'll be comparing them with ones on the living room window sill.
>
>Regards,
>Clayton

--
Backroads Essay:
http://picasaweb.google.com/rsmallfield/TheBackroadsOfWarkworth
Greeting Cards available for purchase:
http://picasaweb.google.com/rsmallfield/GreetingCards
http://photos.smallfield.vze.com
http://smallfield.vze.com

  "Not everything that can be counted counts, and not 
  everything that counts can be counted. " 
  --Albert Einstein (1879-1955)

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Frank Jay
<frankjay02@...> wrote:

>

> What does one do if one wants to print neutral  prints and wants

> to have them keep the tone. Should they be printed on papers

> with no OBA's, acid etc, and just live with the warmer tone of

> the non-whitened paper or is there an alternative.

>



Some un-brightened papers are nearly as white as the brightened papers. 
See the left end points (the paper white measuers) on the graphs at
http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/R1800-No-OBA-Paper.pdf
<http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/R1800-No-OBA-Paper.pdf>  for non-OBA
papers and http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/R1800-OBA-Papers.pdf
<http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/R1800-OBA-Papers.pdf>  for brightened
paper.  In particular, the paper white of Moab Entrada Natural and Red
River Aurora Natural are very close to Photo Rag.  The brightened papers
will, of course, be brighter in the presence of UV, but if the lighting
in incandescent interior lighting, the differences among the papers is
not that great.  Outside, on the other hand, the high UV makes the
difference very noticeable.



While all OBAs are dyes that will ultimately fade, as others have also
noted, some are better than others.  For examplel, the Premier Art
Smooth BW that I use with the dilute Eboni approach I'm using with
my 7500, I'm told, meets the standards that were established for silver
prints.  I'd rather use non-brightened paper, but, unlike with the
Eboni 3-MK workflow for the R1800, I was simply not able to find a
non-brightened paper that I liked as well as the Smooth BW for the
dilute Eboni.  So, I've compromised, but doing so with a paper that
seems to have some of the better OBAs in it.



On a related point, I'm amazed when I hear people disparaging all
fade and age testing.  How quickly we forget the horrible reputation
inkjet printing, and including the expensive Iris "giclee"
prints, got from the use of dyes instead of pigments.  I think, in
particular, Wilhelm's testing and excellent reputation has done a
tremendous amount to move the industry to more stable materials and have
our inkjet photos accepted as a serious medium.



While it's true that the fading of the OBAs does not cause the image
itself to fade, my concern has been that not only does the print no
longer look the way I wanted it to, but also customers who buy a print
that yellows might think the materials were second rate.  That will not
help one's reputation.



Paul

www.PaulRoark.com <http://www.PaulRoark.com>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> Paul Roark wrote:
    On a related point, I'm amazed when I hear people disparaging all
> fade and age testing. How quickly we forget the horrible reputation
> inkjet printing, and including the expensive Iris "giclee"
> prints, got from the use of dyes instead of pigments. I think, in
> particular, Wilhelm's testing and excellent reputation has done a
> tremendous amount to move the industry to more stable materials and have
> our inkjet photos accepted as a serious medium.
Absolutely!  My mother-in-law has professional portraits of each of her 
children (5 daughters) along the main hallway in her house, both baby, 
toddler, and wedding  pictures.  The prints are between 10 and 45 years 
old, and they don't receive any direct sunlight.  Most are fine, but a 
couple show extreme fading, including some of the most recent.  Clearly 
the prints are made with different materials, with some being much more 
long lasting than others. Personally, I enjoy looking at old family 
pictures, and given all of the work I put in to making my family 
pictures, I'd like there to be a decent chance that my daughters can 
show some of them to their grand children without there being major 
deterioration.

Hello Paul,

>Some un-brightened papers are nearly as white as the brightened 
>papers...

>...if the lighting is incandescent interior lighting, the 
>differences among the papers is not that great.  

>While all OBAs are dyes that will ultimately fade, as others have 
>also noted, some are better than others.  

>For example, the Premier Art Smooth BW...I'm told, meets the 
>standards that were established for silver prints.  

>I'd rather use non-brightened paper, but...I was simply not able to 
>find a non-brightened paper that I liked as well...So, I've 
>compromised, but doing so with a paper that seems to have some of 
>the better OBAs in it.

>How quickly we forget the horrible reputation inkjet printing...got 
>from the use of dyes instead of pigments.  I think, in particular, 
>Wilhelm's testing and excellent reputation has done a tremendous 
>amount to move the industry to more stable materials and have
>our inkjet photos accepted as a serious medium.
>------------------------------------------------------------

Thanks, Paul.  You make some important points that too often get lost
 over time.  The OBA issue is not black and white (sorry, couldn't
resist <g>).  People come and go in the forum over time, and always
newcomers arrive, so sometimes things have to be restated.  Thanks
again for your contributions, we have all benefited enormously.


Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Clayton Jones wrote:

> 
> Most things I've stuck up around the house are EEM test prints, but I
> found an old (possibly 5 yrs) small PR BO print in my kitchen area
> that is more yellowed than any other I've ever seen around other parts
> of the house.  It's so yellow I thought it was an EEM print at first,
> but it's marked down in the corner.
> 
> I'm assuming it's caused by being in the kitchen area, and am
> wondering about the testing idea I mentioned and how valid any yellow
> testing setup could be without a controlled atmosphere.  How could
> OBA-related light-exposure-only results be obtained?  I suppose
> relative comparisons would be valid as long as all tests were done in
> the same area away from obvious sources of fumes.  What do you think?


It must have been 7 years ago or more after a Xmas that we 
discovered how attractive/absorbent HM coatings are for 
candle and open fire fumes. What was a near white German 
Etching print became creamy, more to brown than yellow, in 
10 days time. Near the fire place and with lots of candles 
but nevertheless.

http://www.spinics.net/lists/epson/old/2001_01/msg04682.html

8 years ago

-- 
Met vriendelijke groeten,Ernst


|  Dinkla Grafische Techniek  |
|     www.pigment-print.com    |
|             ( unvollendet )            |

Wilhelm's testing and excellent reputation has done a
> > tremendous amount to move the industry to more stable materials
and have
> > our inkjet photos accepted as a serious medium.

That's wonderful, but it doesn't mean Wilhelm's statements about
"archival" are, or ever have been, anywhere near accurate. 

In particular, if we're still using INKS as opposed to PIGMENTS we're
rejecting what we learned from him (carbon inks may logically be more
permanent than non-carbon, but Wilhelm's not even hinted anything
about them (right?wrong?), so citing him and then rejecting his
guidance seems odd. 


> Absolutely!  My mother-in-law has professional portraits of each of her 
> children (5 daughters) along the main hallway in her house, both baby, 
> toddler, and wedding  pictures.  The prints are between 10 and 45 years 
> old, and they don't receive any direct sunlight.  Most are fine, but a 
> couple show extreme fading, including some of the most recent.  Clearly 
> the prints are made with different materials, with some being much more 
> long lasting than others.  

You're probably talking about color prints because very few
photographers delivered B&W in the mid/late 20th century.

Most of the decay in color prints, assuming Kodak or Fuji or other
good Japanese paper, has to do with processing variables rather than
paper variables. Many labs did weird processing with Ektacolor paper,
just as they did/do with C41. Those were the dominant materials in
that 10-45 year period you cite. Minilab prints (1hr labs) are
particularly suspect because they have almost always used abbreviated
chemistries. If you think their prints have faded, you should try
printing their C41 negatives after a decade or three.

I've got hundreds of color photos on various materials, made in the
same period by good professional labs (which means labs that almost
exclusively serve professionals), that show little or no fading.

I've got hundreds more, made from the 1880s until WWII, B&W, that are
easily scanned for reprinting to look like modern images...made in
backwoods California photolabs, in Harbin China, in Indonesia, in
Russia, in Austria etc. There have always been bad labs (some of your
mother's) and there have always been good labs. 

Wilhelm doesn't address lab skills...some of us are applying weird
substances to our prints and then claiming Wilhelm has some relevance.

I think that if we really do respect Wilhelm we shouldn't drag his
name so carelessly into marketing. He didn't bless our work, nothing
he said has relevance to our allegations about the "archival" nature
of our prints. Relying on his tests is a way of lying to clients, and
it's false advertising if we put it in print.

> > Absolutely! My mother-in-law has professional portraits of each of her
> > children (5 daughters) along the main hallway in her house, both baby,
> > toddler, and wedding pictures. The prints are between 10 and 45 years
> > old, and they don't receive any direct sunlight. Most are fine, but a
> > couple show extreme fading, including some of the most recent. Clearly
> > the prints are made with different materials, with some being much more
> > long lasting than others.
>
> You're probably talking about color prints because very few
> photographers delivered B&W in the mid/late 20th century.
>

Both actually.  Some of the earliest ones are hand-colored bw.  They 
look great.

> Most of the decay in color prints, assuming Kodak or Fuji or other
> good Japanese paper, has to do with processing variables rather than
> paper variables. Many labs did weird processing with Ektacolor paper,
> just as they did/do with C41. Those were the dominant materials in
> that 10-45 year period you cite. Minilab prints (1hr labs) are
> particularly suspect because they have almost always used abbreviated
> chemistries. If you think their prints have faded, you should try
> printing their C41 negatives after a decade or three.
These were professional portraits. I doubt very much that they were made 
at 1 hour labs.  In fact, in my area there weren't any one-hour labs 
until a few years ago when Walmart moved in.

>
> I've got hundreds of color photos on various materials, made in the
> same period by good professional labs (which means labs that almost
> exclusively serve professionals)
>
> , that show little or no fading.
>
Well, that was my point, right?  Some people/labs/companies cared more 
about longevity than others, and this had a serious impact on the life 
of important prints.  Thus it makes sense for us to care about how long 
our prints will last.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "djon43"
<djon43@...> wrote:
>

> > Wilhelm's testing and excellent reputation has done a
> > tremendous amount to move the industry to more stable materials
...

> That's wonderful, but it doesn't mean Wilhelm's statements about
> "archival" are, or ever have been, anywhere near accurate.

I don't think Wilhelm uses the term "archival" much.   In general, while
all accelerated fade and age testing is just an estimate, the fade
testing has much fewer variables than does the age testing.  Where
Wilhelm is most of often quoted is with respect to display permanence,
which looks just at the fade.  (With his dark storage information he's
getting into age testing, where things really get uncertain.)

I think most people understand that there are tremendous variations in
viewing circumstances, which, of course, includes not only illumination
differences but also environmental differences.   Perhaps Wilhelm (or
those who reference his numbers) should preface the predictions with a
disclaimer regarding the variable.  One of the threads here has gotten
into such variables as kitchen gases that are really hard for someone to
predict.  We're always going to be facing a lot of uncertainty here, but
the more information the market has, the better off we'll be.   I,
personally, find the relative numbers more significant than the "years
of display" predictions.


> In particular, if we're still using INKS as opposed to PIGMENTS

I think of the term "ink" as including both dye-based and pigment-base
products.  In general, one of the first things we learned is that, in
general, dyes fade much faster than pigments.

>  (carbon inks may logically be more
> permanent than non-carbon, but Wilhelm's not even hinted anything
> about them (right?wrong?),

Wrong.

Wilhelm has noted in his Epson UltraChrome "K3" testing that the
B&W prints made with the "Advanced" B&W ("ABW") mode of
printing show significant increases in stability due to the
"highly-stable carbon pigment based black ink" replacing the
color inks more than when the printer is in RGB mode.  (See for example,
http://www.wilhelm-research.com/epson/R2400.html
<http://www.wilhelm-research.com/epson/R2400.html>   at page 3,
top-right box note.)

And Wilhelm is not the only source of information.  There are many tests
out there that contribute to our understanting of these inks.  Even the
informal window testing done by group members contributes to our
understanding, and these tests are, in general, quite consistent.

Paul

www.PaulRoark.com <http://www.PaulRoark.com>









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