Digital BW, The Print

The collective wisdom of this group is phenomenal, so I'm looking for some
opinions.

Once upon a time, I used Cone's Piezography Photoshop plug-in in combination
with his inks on an Epson 1200 to make beautiful prints. Problem was, for
every beautiful print I made, I made 20 that were "tossers" because of ink
clogs, banding issues, etc, etc, etc.

I gave up.

Recently, I've been using QTR on an Epson 2200 (thanks, Roy!), and I'm
impressed, mainly because it works on a nearly "plug-and-play" sort of
fashion. I'd like a bit more richness in the blacks, but otherwise, I'm
happy.

I also note that a number of users on this list are using Paul Roark's
curves, and still others are using ImagePrint to drive various printers.

I am also on a Piezography listserv, and note that the number of messages in
that group has tailed off to nearly "zero" over the last few months,
suggesting that either users are busy making prints, or that, like me,
they've abandoned ship, looking for a lower frustration and "P.I.A." factor.

I'm considering buying an Epson 4000 for use with either QTR or ImagePrint,
and before I make that large (size and price) leap, I'm seeking opinions on
the state of B&W inkjet printing at this point in history.

*Is Piezography dead?
*Is the Epson 4000 worth the price of admission?
*Is ImagePrint superior to Roy's QTR? If so, why or how?

Thanks in advance for any insights that anyone might have.

-Jeff Curto

Jeff,

since you ask about the "bigger picture" so to speak in the bw
printing world, you may consider looking over the archives of this
list - meaning the last several weeks of posts, or even earlier.
Also, our Files section may have some pointers.

You seem to have narrowed down your choices to two options,
but I am not sure you are aware of all possible scenarios. Briefly:
ImagePrint addresses both color and bw and works with canned
profiles. QTR  (and IJC/OPM which you may not be aware of) allows
you to make profiles and only works for bw printing. If you are
on a PC, there is also StudioPrint which is a full RIP and allows
bw profiling as well as works with color. The big dividing
line here is between accepting canned profiles or be willing
to make your own. In my opinion, canned profiles for bw
are a thing of the past, but many find them convenient.

People have also gotten good results using MIS inks with either
the Epson driver or Paul Roark's curves. The inkset to use
is as big a deal as the software, and you may want to look into
that as well. The leading options seem to be MIS and Piezotones.
The latter are also supported by bw ICC profiles available at
inkjetmall.

You'd be better served if you considered these options in relation
to what your printing needs are. There are big differences in
cost, speed, degree of control, convenience etc.

To answer your other questions:

If by Piezography you mean the old plug in, look up R9 and their
products (available through inkjetgoodies I believe). They also
offer inksets to go with it.  Not dead, but renamed when it
reverted to its creator. 

I don't own a 4000 but by all accounts it is state of the art
and if your prints aren't wider than 17, it is presently at
the top of the heap. There are letter size printers from
Epson that hint at the next big thing, so all this may change in a
blink of an eye...


Antonis

> *Is Piezography dead?
> *Is the Epson 4000 worth the price of admission?
> *Is ImagePrint superior to Roy's QTR? If so, why or how?
> 
> Thanks in advance for any insights that anyone might have.
> 
> -Jeff Curto

Jeff-
 
You should also consider looking at Studioprint as well in your software
side of the equation. You can make custom mixes of inks and limitations,
which also lets you get into split toning. I also see more accurate prints
than when I tested out Imageprint. About the same cost as Imageprint is what
Studioprint costs of your 4000. I finally feel like I am getting great b&w
and color prints from a printer/RIP, and I am thrilled to death about it.
 
$.02
 
Andy

  _____  

From: Jeff Curto [mailto:jeff@...] 
Sent: Friday, January 28, 2005 7:47 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Piezography? Or, the state of the state.



The collective wisdom of this group is phenomenal, so I'm looking for some
opinions.

Once upon a time, I used Cone's Piezography Photoshop plug-in in combination
with his inks on an Epson 1200 to make beautiful prints. Problem was, for
every beautiful print I made, I made 20 that were "tossers" because of ink
clogs, banding issues, etc, etc, etc.

I gave up.

Recently, I've been using QTR on an Epson 2200 (thanks, Roy!), and I'm
impressed, mainly because it works on a nearly "plug-and-play" sort of
fashion. I'd like a bit more richness in the blacks, but otherwise, I'm
happy.

I also note that a number of users on this list are using Paul Roark's
curves, and still others are using ImagePrint to drive various printers.

I am also on a Piezography listserv, and note that the number of messages in
that group has tailed off to nearly "zero" over the last few months,
suggesting that either users are busy making prints, or that, like me,
they've abandoned ship, looking for a lower frustration and "P.I.A." factor.

I'm considering buying an Epson 4000 for use with either QTR or ImagePrint,
and before I make that large (size and price) leap, I'm seeking opinions on
the state of B&W inkjet printing at this point in history.

*Is Piezography dead?
*Is the Epson 4000 worth the price of admission?
*Is ImagePrint superior to Roy's QTR? If so, why or how?

Thanks in advance for any insights that anyone might have.

-Jeff Curto






Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
they are often being updated.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
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Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jeff,

Here is what I would do.

(1) get the 4000 if 17 inch is wide enough for you.
(2) install and use QTR
(3) if you like it, send Roy the $50
(4) enjoy making prints

If you don't like QTR, that's when life gets complicated.  You have 
choice of:

(1) continuing with OEM inks + RIP.  This will not necessarily be 
better than QTR, or
(2) putting-in 3rd party gary inks such as offered by MIS and Cone.

In my mind (and experience), there is no doubt that the best output 
will come from 3rd party gray inks.  But the difference will be so 
miniscule, that you will wonder why you went down that path, in the 
process losing the ability to make color prints.  Only a year ago I 
would have recomended to go with 3rd party inks and get a separate 
printer for color (if that is an interest for you).  Not anymore.  
For $50 QTR is an embarrasing bargain.  Oh, I have made and seen some 
very compelling b/w prints from the 2200, 4000, and 7600 printers 
with just the Epson driver, provided you have a good profile for your 
paper, and you are not too finicky about metamerism.  The same cannot 
be said for the older generation 1280 dye based inkset.

Good luck.

Shilesh

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Jeff Curto 
<jeff@j...> wrote:
> 
> The collective wisdom of this group is phenomenal, so I'm looking 
for some
> opinions.
> 
> Once upon a time, I used Cone's Piezography Photoshop plug-in in 
combination
> with his inks on an Epson 1200 to make beautiful prints. Problem 
was, for
> every beautiful print I made, I made 20 that were "tossers" because 
of ink
> clogs, banding issues, etc, etc, etc.
> 
> I gave up.
> 
> Recently, I've been using QTR on an Epson 2200 (thanks, Roy!), and 
I'm
> impressed, mainly because it works on a nearly "plug-and-play" sort 
of
> fashion. I'd like a bit more richness in the blacks, but otherwise, 
I'm
> happy.
> 
> I also note that a number of users on this list are using Paul 
Roark's
> curves, and still others are using ImagePrint to drive various 
printers.
> 
> I am also on a Piezography listserv, and note that the number of 
messages in
> that group has tailed off to nearly "zero" over the last few months,
> suggesting that either users are busy making prints, or that, like 
me,
> they've abandoned ship, looking for a lower frustration 
and "P.I.A." factor.
> 
> I'm considering buying an Epson 4000 for use with either QTR or 
ImagePrint,
> and before I make that large (size and price) leap, I'm seeking 
opinions on

> the state of B&W inkjet printing at this point in history.
> 
> *Is Piezography dead?
> *Is the Epson 4000 worth the price of admission?
> *Is ImagePrint superior to Roy's QTR? If so, why or how?
> 
> Thanks in advance for any insights that anyone might have.
> 
> -Jeff Curto

Shilesh,
 
Interesting comments you make.
Now, let me be a little blunt. I have been playing with a 220o and the Epson inks and so far have not been able to get really dark blacks therefore I really would appreciate your input and/or suggestions as to what to do.
I also, tried with the QTR, but so far I have not fully satisfied with it.
And I really would like to keep having the capacity to print color with the 2200 therefore the route of the OEM inks is somewhat inconvenient. I have however a 1280 that I could convert to be a B&W only, any suggestions?
 
Regards
 
Moises

Shilesh Jani <shilesh.jani@...> wrote:

Jeff,

Here is what I would do.

(1) get the 4000 if 17 inch is wide enough for you.
(2) install and use QTR
(3) if you like it, send Roy the $50
(4) enjoy making prints

If you don't like QTR, that's when life gets complicated.  You have 
choice of:

(1) continuing with OEM inks + RIP.  This will not necessarily be 
better than QTR, or
(2) putting-in 3rd party gary inks such as offered by MIS and Cone.

In my mind (and experience), there is no doubt that the best output 
will come from 3rd party gray inks.  But the difference will be so 
miniscule, that you will wonder why you went down that path, in the 
process losing the ability to make color prints.  Only a year ago I 
would have recomended to go with 3rd party inks and get a separate 
printer for color (if that is an interest for you).  Not anymore.  
For $50 QTR is an embarrasing bargain.  Oh, I have made and seen some 
very compelling b/w prints from the 2200, 4000, and 7600 printers 
with just the Epson driver, provided you have a good profile for your 
paper, and you are not too finicky about metamerism.  The same cannot 
be said for the older generation 1280 dye based inkset.

Good luck.

Shilesh

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Jeff Curto 
<jeff@j...> wrote:
> 
> The collective wisdom of this group is phenomenal, so I'm looking 
for some
> opinions.
> 
> Once upon a time, I used Cone's Piezography Photoshop plug-in in 
combination
> with his inks on an Epson 1200 to make beautiful prints. Problem 
was, for
> every beautiful print I made, I made 20 that were "tossers" because 
of ink
> clogs, banding issues, etc, etc, etc.
> 
> I gave up.
> 
> Recently, I've been using QTR on an Epson 2200 (thanks, Roy!), and 
I'm
> impressed, mainly because it works on a nearly "plug-and-play" sort 
of
> fashion. I'd like a bit more richness in the blacks, but otherwise, 
I'm
> happy.
> 
> I also note that a number of users on this list are using Paul 
Roark's
> curves, and still others are using ImagePrint to drive various 
printers.
> 
> I am also on a Piezography listserv, and note that the number of 
messages in
> that group has tailed off to nearly "zero" over the last few months,
> suggesting that either users are busy making prints, or that, like 
me,
> they've abandoned ship, looking for a lower frustration 
and "P.I.A." factor.
> 
> I'm considering buying an Epson 4000 for use with either QTR or 
ImagePrint,
> and before I make that large (size and price) leap, I'm seeking 
opinions on
> the state of B&W inkjet printing at this point in history.
> 
> *Is Piezography dead?
> *Is the Epson 4000 worth the price of admission?
> *Is ImagePrint superior to Roy's QTR? If so, why or how?
> 
> Thanks in advance for any insights that anyone might have.
> 
> -Jeff Curto





Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as they are often being updated.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page.

Please follow these basic guidelines:
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership without notice.
- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the membership.
- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and Moderators. See �Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines� in the Files section:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/

BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE �OWNER� AND �MODERATORS� OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  �OWNER� AND �MODERATORS� OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Moises,
 
The "deep black" is clearly an issue, especially for matte black ink 
on matte papers.  All RIPs will have this problem and all pigment 
inks also.  There is nothing that can be done about it, other than 
using a dye based ink, which introduces a lot of other problems.  But 
the UltraChrome matte black ink of the 2200 is really sufficient.  
Most people have problems because of the extremely high degree of 
linear input-out behavior of QTR and other RIPs.  So if your image 
histogram is not clipped in the shadows, you will actually see a lot 
of shadow separation in the 90-100% region.  This will give 
the "impression" of weak black.  In reality what you are seeing is 
glorious shadow detail.  If you come from true darkroom printing 
tradition, this is the biggest thing to get used to, or so I am 
told.  If you come from Pt-Pd contact printing tradition, you will 
say amen!
 
You get get stronger black using the photo lack ink on resin coated 
papers, but that introduces bronzing problems and a very warm tone.
 
Unless you use a dye based ink, the 1280 printer will not help.  If 
you use the Epson inks, try printing "black only".
 
In all honesty there is no perfect solution yet.  And I hope you do 
not expect inkjet prints to look exactly like darkroom prints, 
because they don't and hopefully never will.
 
Hope this helps.
 
Shilesh
 
 
 

-----Original Message-----
From: Moises Faidengold [mailto:mfaidengold@...] 
Sent: Friday, January 28, 2005 1:53 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Cc: Jani, Shilesh
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Piezography? Or, the state of the state.


Shilesh,
 
Interesting comments you make.
Now, let me be a little blunt. I have been playing with a 220o and 
the Epson inks and so far have not been able to get really dark 
blacks therefore I really would appreciate your input and/or 
suggestions as to what to do.
I also, tried with the QTR, but so far I have not fully satisfied 
with it.
And I really would like to keep having the capacity to print color 
with the 2200 therefore the route of the OEM inks is somewhat 
inconvenient. I have however a 1280 that I could convert to be a B&W 
only, any suggestions?
 
Regards
 
Moises

Shilesh Jani <shilesh.jani@...> wrote:

Jeff,

Here is what I would do.

(1) get the 4000 if 17 inch is wide enough for you.
(2) install and use QTR
(3) if you like it, send Roy the $50
(4) enjoy making prints

If you don't like QTR, that's when life gets complicated.  You have 
choice of:

(1) continuing with OEM inks + RIP.  This will not necessarily be 
better than QTR, or
(2) putting-in 3rd party gary inks such as offered by MIS and Cone.

In my mind (and experience), there is no doubt that the best output 
will come from 3rd party gray inks.  But the difference will be so 
miniscule, that you will wonder why you went down that path, in the 
process losing the ability to make color prints.  Only a year ago I 
would have recomended to go with 3rd party inks and get a separate 
printer for color (if that is an interest for you).  Not anymore.  
For $50 QTR is an embarrasing bargain.  Oh, I have made and seen some 
very compelling b/w prints from the 2200, 4000, and 7600 printers 
with just the Epson driver, provided you have a good profile for your 
paper, and you are not too finicky about metamerism.  The same cannot 
be said for the older generation 1280 dye based inkset.

Good luck.

Shilesh

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Jeff Curto 
<jeff@j...> wrote:
> 
> The collective wisdom of this group is phenomenal, so I'm looking 
for some
> opinions.
> 
> Once upon a time, I used Cone's Piezography Photoshop plug-in in 
combination
> with his inks on an Epson 1200 to make beautiful prints. Problem 
was, for
> every beautiful print I made, I made 20 that were "tossers" because 
of ink
> clogs, banding issues, etc, etc, etc.
> 
> I gave up.
& gt; 
> Recently, I've been using QTR on an Epson 2200 (thanks, Roy!), and 
I'm
> impressed, mainly because it works on a nearly "plug-and-play" sort 
of
> fashion. I'd like a bit more richness in the blacks, but otherwise, 
I'm
> happy.
> 
> I also note that a number of users on this list are using Paul 
Roark's
> curves, and still others are using ImagePrint to drive various 
printers.
> 
> I am also on a Piezography listserv, and note that the number of 
messages in
> that group has tailed off to nearly "zero" over the last few months,
> suggesting that either users are busy making prints, or that, like 
me,
> they've abandoned ship, looking for a lower frustration 
and "P.I.A." factor.
> 
> I'm considering buying an Epson 4000 for use with either QTR or 
ImagePrint,
> and before I make that large (size and price) leap, I'm seeking 
opinions on
> the st ate of B&W inkjet printing at this point in history.
> 
> *Is Piezography dead?
> *Is the Epson 4000 worth the price of admission?
> *Is ImagePrint superior to Roy's QTR? If so, why or how?
> 
> Thanks in advance for any insights that anyone might have.
> 
> -Jeff Curto





Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
resources as they are often being updated.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish 
to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting 
this same page.

Please follow these basic guidelines:
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to 
keep them short.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or 
flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed 
from the membership without notice.
- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital 
B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be 
removed from the membership.
- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and 
guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group 
Owner and Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the 
Files section:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/

BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE 
PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT 
THE "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP 
SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, 
SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT 
LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER 
INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL 
BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF 
SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE 
THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR 
ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT 
OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) 
ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.




----------------------------------------------------------------------
----------
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To visit your group on the web, go to:
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To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
  
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. 


__________________________________________________
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Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 
--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Moises 
Faidengold <mfaidengold@y...> wrote:
> Shilesh,
>  
> Interesting comments you make.
> Now, let me be a little blunt. I have been playing with a 220o and 
the Epson inks and so far have not been able to get really dark 
blacks therefore I really would appreciate your input and/or 
suggestions as to what to do.
> I also, tried with the QTR, but so far I have not fully satisfied 
with it.
> And I really would like to keep having the capacity to print color 
with the 2200 therefore the route of the OEM inks is somewhat 
inconvenient. I have however a 1280 that I could convert to be a B&W 
only, any suggestions?
>  
> Regards
>  
> Moises
> 
> Shilesh Jani <shilesh.jani@s...> wrote:
> 
> Jeff,
> 
> Here is what I would do.
> 
> (1) get the 4000 if 17 inch is wide enough for you.
> (2) install and use QTR
> (3) if you like it, send Roy the $50
> (4) enjoy making prints
> 
> If you don't like QTR, that's when life gets complicated.  You have 
> choice of:
> 
> (1) continuing with OEM inks + RIP.  This will not necessarily be 
> better than QTR, or
> (2) putting-in 3rd party gary inks such as offered by MIS and Cone.
> 
> In my mind (and experience), there is no doubt that the best output 
> will come from 3rd party gray inks.  But the difference will be so 
> miniscule, that you will wonder why you went down that path, in the 
> process losing the ability to make color prints.  Only a year ago I 
> would have recomended to go with 3rd party inks and get a separate 
> printer for color (if that is an interest for you).  Not anymore.  
> For $50 QTR is an embarrasing bargain.  Oh, I have made and seen 
some 
> very compelling b/w prints from the 2200, 4000, and 7600 printers 
> with just the Epson driver, provided you have a good profile for 
your 
> paper, and you are not too finicky about metamerism.  The same 
cannot 
> be said for the older generation 1280 dye based inkset.
> 
> Good luck.
> 
> Shilesh
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Jeff Curto 
> <jeff@j...> wrote:
> > 
> > The collective wisdom of this group is phenomenal, so I'm looking 
> for some
> > opinions.
> > 
> > Once upon a time, I used Cone's Piezography Photoshop plug-in in 
> combination
> > with his inks on an Epson 1200 to make beautiful prints. Problem 
> was, for
> > every beautiful print I made, I made 20 that were "tossers" 
because 
> of ink
> > clogs, banding issues, etc, etc, etc.
> > 
> > I gave up.
> > 
> > Recently, I've been using QTR on an Epson 2200 (thanks, Roy!), 
and 
> I'm
> > impressed, mainly because it works on a nearly "plug-and-play" 
sort 
> of
> > fashion. I'd like a bit more richness in the blacks, but 
otherwise, 
> I'm
> > happy.
> > 
> > I also note that a number of users on this list are using Paul 
> Roark's
> > curves, and still others are using ImagePrint to drive various 
> printers.
> > 
> > I am also on a Piezography listserv, and note that the number of 
> messages in
> > that group has tailed off to nearly "zero" over the last few 
months,
> > suggesting that either users are busy making prints, or that, 
like 
> me,
> > they've abandoned ship, looking for a lower frustration 
> and "P.I.A." factor.
> > 
> > I'm considering buying an Epson 4000 for use with either QTR or 
> ImagePrint,
> > and before I make that large (size and price) leap, I'm seeking 
> opinions on
> > the state of B&W inkjet printing at this point in history.
> > 
> > *Is Piezography dead?
> > *Is the Epson 4000 worth the price of admission?
> > *Is ImagePrint superior to Roy's QTR? If so, why or how?
> > 
> > Thanks in advance for any insights that anyone might have.
> > 
> > -Jeff Curto
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
resources as they are often being updated.
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you 
wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by 
visiting this same page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages 
to keep them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or 
flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed 
from the membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital 
B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be 
removed from the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules 
and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the 
group Owner and Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" 
in the Files section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> 
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE 
PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT 
THE "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP 
SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, 
SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT 
LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER 
INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL 
BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF 
SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE 
THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR 
ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT 
OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) 
ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ---------------------------------
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> 
>    To visit your group on the web, go to:
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> 
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> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>  I have however a 1280 that I could convert to be a B&W only, any suggestions?
> Moises

I have a 1280 running MIS' UT2 inks with QTR and Paul's curves. Output is excellent!

Moises,
 
The "deep black" is clearly an issue, especially for matte black ink 
on matte papers.  All RIPs will have this problem and all pigment 
inks also.  There is nothing that can be done about it, other than 
using a dye based ink, which introduces a lot of other problems.  But 
the UltraChrome matte black ink of the 2200 is really sufficient.  
Most people have problems because of the extremely high degree of 
linear input-out behavior of QTR and other RIPs.  So if your image 
histogram is not clipped in the shadows, you will actually see a lot 
of shadow separation in the 90-100% region.  This will give 
the "impression" of weak black.  In reality what you are seeing is 
glorious shadow detail.  If you come from true darkroom printing 
tradition, this is the biggest thing to get used to, or so I am 
told.  If you come from Pt-Pd contact printing tradition, you will 
say amen!
 
You get get stronger black using the photo lack ink on resin coated 
papers, but that introduces bronzing problems and a very warm tone.
 
Unless you use a dye based ink, the 1280 printer will not help.  If 
you use the Epson inks, try printing "black only".
 
In all honesty there is no perfect solution yet.  And I hope you do 
not expect inkjet prints to look exactly like darkroom prints, 
because they don't and hopefully never will.
 
Hope this helps.
 
Shilesh
 
 
 

-----Original Message-----
From: Moises Faidengold [mailto:mfaidengold@...] 
Sent: Friday, January 28, 2005 1:53 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Cc: Jani, Shilesh
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Piezography? Or, the state of the state.


Shilesh,
 
Interesting comments you make.
Now, let me be a little blunt. I have been playing with a 220o and 
the Epson inks and so far have not been able to get really dark 
blacks therefore I really would appreciate your input and/or 
suggestions as to what to do.
I also, tried with the QTR, but so far I have not fully satisfied 
with it.
And I really would like to keep having the capacity to print color 
with the 2200 therefore the route of the OEM inks is somewhat 
inconvenient. I have however a 1280 that I could convert to be a B&W 
only, any suggestions?
 
Regards
 
Moises

Shilesh Jani <shilesh.jani@...> wrote:

Jeff,

Here is what I would do.

(1) get the 4000 if 17 inch is wide enough for you.
(2) install and use QTR
(3) if you like it, send Roy the $50
(4) enjoy making prints

If you don't like QTR, that's when life gets complicated.  You have 
choice of:

(1) continuing with OEM inks + RIP.  This will not necessarily be 
better than QTR, or
(2) putting-in 3rd party gary inks such as offered by MIS and Cone.

In my mind (and experience), there is no doubt that the best output 
will come from 3rd party gray inks.  But the difference will be so 
miniscule, that you will wonder why you went down that path, in the 
process losing the ability to make color prints.  Only a year ago I 
would have recomended to go with 3rd party inks and get a separate 
printer for color (if that is an interest for you).  Not anymore.  
For $50 QTR is an embarrasing bargain.  Oh, I have made and seen some 
very compelling b/w prints from the 2200, 4000, and 7600 printers 
with just the Epson driver, provided you have a good profile for your 
paper, and you are not too finicky about metamerism.  The same cannot 
be said for the older generation 1280 dye based inkset.

Good luck.

Shilesh

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Jeff Curto 
<jeff@j...> wrote:
> 
> The collective wisdom of this group is phenomenal, so I'm looking 
for some
> opinions.
> 
> Once upon a time, I used Cone's Piezography Photoshop plug-in in 
combination
> with his inks on an Epson 1200 to make beautiful prints. Problem 
was, for
> every beautiful print I made, I made 20 that were "tossers" because 
of ink
> clogs, banding issues, etc, etc, etc.
> 
> I gave up.
& gt; 
> Recently, I've been using QTR on an Epson 2200 (thanks, Roy!), and 
I'm
> impressed, mainly because it works on a nearly "plug-and-play" sort 
of
> fashion. I'd like a bit more richness in the blacks, but otherwise, 
I'm
> happy.
> 
> I also note that a number of users on this list are using Paul 
Roark's
> curves, and still others are using ImagePrint to drive various 
printers.
> 
> I am also on a Piezography listserv, and note that the number of 
messages in
> that group has tailed off to nearly "zero" over the last few months,
> suggesting that either users are busy making prints, or that, like 
me,
> they've abandoned ship, looking for a lower frustration 
and "P.I.A." factor.
> 
> I'm considering buying an Epson 4000 for use with either QTR or 
ImagePrint,
> and before I make that large (size and price) leap, I'm seeking 
opinions on
> the st ate of B&W inkjet printing at this point in history.
> 
> *Is Piezography dead?
> *Is the Epson 4000 worth the price of admission?
> *Is ImagePrint superior to Roy's QTR? If so, why or how?
> 
> Thanks in advance for any insights that anyone might have.
> 
> -Jeff Curto





Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
resources as they are often being updated.

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If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish 
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LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER 
INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL 
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--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Moises 
Faidengold <mfaidengold@y...> wrote:
> Shilesh,
>  
> Interesting comments you make.
> Now, let me be a little blunt. I have been playing with a 220o and 
the Epson inks and so far have not been able to get really dark 
blacks therefore I really would appreciate your input and/or 
suggestions as to what to do.
> I also, tried with the QTR, but so far I have not fully satisfied 
with it.
> And I really would like to keep having the capacity to print color 
with the 2200 therefore the route of the OEM inks is somewhat 
inconvenient. I have however a 1280 that I could convert to be a B&W 
only, any suggestions?
>  
> Regards
>  
> Moises
> 
> Shilesh Jani <shilesh.jani@s...> wrote:
> 
> Jeff,
> 
> Here is what I would do.
> 
> (1) get the 4000 if 17 inch is wide enough for you.
> (2) install and use QTR
> (3) if you like it, send Roy the $50
> (4) enjoy making prints
> 
> If you don't like QTR, that's when life gets complicated.  You have 
> choice of:
> 
> (1) continuing with OEM inks + RIP.  This will not necessarily be 
> better than QTR, or
> (2) putting-in 3rd party gary inks such as offered by MIS and Cone.
> 
> In my mind (and experience), there is no doubt that the best output 
> will come from 3rd party gray inks.  But the difference will be so 
> miniscule, that you will wonder why you went down that path, in the 
> process losing the ability to make color prints.  Only a year ago I 
> would have recomended to go with 3rd party inks and get a separate 
> printer for color (if that is an interest for you).  Not anymore.  
> For $50 QTR is an embarrasing bargain.  Oh, I have made and seen 
some 
> very compelling b/w prints from the 2200, 4000, and 7600 printers 
> with just the Epson driver, provided you have a good profile for 
your 
> paper, and you are not too finicky about metamerism.  The same 
cannot 
> be said for the older generation 1280 dye based inkset.
> 
> Good luck.
> 
> Shilesh
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Jeff Curto 
> <jeff@j...> wrote:
> > 
> > The collective wisdom of this group is phenomenal, so I'm looking 
> for some
> > opinions.
> > 
> > Once upon a time, I used Cone's Piezography Photoshop plug-in in 
> combination
> > with his inks on an Epson 1200 to make beautiful prints. Problem 
> was, for
> > every beautiful print I made, I made 20 that were "tossers" 
because 
> of ink
> > clogs, banding issues, etc, etc, etc.
> > 
> > I gave up.
> > 
> > Recently, I've been using QTR on an Epson 2200 (thanks, Roy!), 
and 
> I'm
> > impressed, mainly because it works on a nearly "plug-and-play" 
sort 
> of
> > fashion. I'd like a bit more richness in the blacks, but 
otherwise, 
> I'm
> > happy.
> > 
> > I also note that a number of users on this list are using Paul 
> Roark's
> > curves, and still others are using ImagePrint to drive various 
> printers.
> > 
> > I am also on a Piezography listserv, and note that the number of 
> messages in
> > that group has tailed off to nearly "zero" over the last few 
months,
> > suggesting that either users are busy making prints, or that, 
like 
> me,
> > they've abandoned ship, looking for a lower frustration 
> and "P.I.A." factor.
> > 
> > I'm considering buying an Epson 4000 for use with either QTR or 
> ImagePrint,
> > and before I make that large (size and price) leap, I'm seeking 
> opinions on
> > the state of B&W inkjet printing at this point in history.
> > 
> > *Is Piezography dead?
> > *Is the Epson 4000 worth the price of admission?
> > *Is ImagePrint superior to Roy's QTR? If so, why or how?
> > 
> > Thanks in advance for any insights that anyone might have.
> > 
> > -Jeff Curto
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
resources as they are often being updated.
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you 
wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by 
visiting this same page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages 
to keep them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or 
flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed 
from the membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital 
B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be 
removed from the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules 
and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the 
group Owner and Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" 
in the Files section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> 
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE 
PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT 
THE "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP 
SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, 
SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT 
LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER 
INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL 
BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF 
SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE 
THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR 
ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT 
OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) 
ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ---------------------------------
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
>    To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/
>   
>    To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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> 
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
> http://mail.yahoo.com 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I am glad you expressed this, the issue of"deep black"
Dmax.I think you hit it right on the head,about inkjet
printers.I have been a b&w darkroom printer for 35
years and have been trying to get a great b&w print
from Epson printers for  3 years. The QTR is very
good.I liked what you said about glorious shadow
detail,thats exactly how I feel.I just don't want to
put up with all that clogging with Piezography.As you
said QTR is the best compromise.Francis Ford 
--- Shilesh Jani <shilesh.jani@...>
wrote:

> 
> 
> Moises,
>  
> The "deep black" is clearly an issue, especially for
> matte black ink 
> on matte papers.  All RIPs will have this problem
> and all pigment 
> inks also.  There is nothing that can be done about
> it, other than 
> using a dye based ink, which introduces a lot of
> other problems.  But 
> the UltraChrome matte black ink of the 2200 is
> really sufficient.  
> Most people have problems because of the extremely
> high degree of 
> linear input-out behavior of QTR and other RIPs.  So
> if your image 
> histogram is not clipped in the shadows, you will
> actually see a lot 
> of shadow separation in the 90-100% region.  This
> will give 
> the "impression" of weak black.  In reality what you
> are seeing is 
> glorious shadow detail.  If you come from true
> darkroom printing 
> tradition, this is the biggest thing to get used to,
> or so I am 
> told.  If you come from Pt-Pd contact printing
> tradition, you will 
> say amen!
>  
> You get get stronger black using the photo lack ink
> on resin coated 
> papers, but that introduces bronzing problems and a
> very warm tone.
>  
> Unless you use a dye based ink, the 1280 printer
> will not help.  If 
> you use the Epson inks, try printing "black only".
>  
> In all honesty there is no perfect solution yet. 
> And I hope you do 
> not expect inkjet prints to look exactly like
> darkroom prints, 
> because they don't and hopefully never will.
>  
> Hope this helps.
>  
> Shilesh
>  
>  
>  
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Moises Faidengold
> [mailto:mfaidengold@...] 
> Sent: Friday, January 28, 2005 1:53 PM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Cc: Jani, Shilesh
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Piezography? Or, the
> state of the state.
> 
> 
> Shilesh,
>  
> Interesting comments you make.
> Now, let me be a little blunt. I have been playing
> with a 220o and 
> the Epson inks and so far have not been able to get
> really dark 
> blacks therefore I really would appreciate your
> input and/or 
> suggestions as to what to do.
> I also, tried with the QTR, but so far I have not
> fully satisfied 
> with it.
> And I really would like to keep having the capacity
> to print color 
> with the 2200 therefore the route of the OEM inks is
> somewhat 
> inconvenient. I have however a 1280 that I could
> convert to be a B&W 
> only, any suggestions?
>  
> Regards
>  
> Moises
> 
> Shilesh Jani <shilesh.jani@...> wrote:
> 
> Jeff,
> 
> Here is what I would do.
> 
> (1) get the 4000 if 17 inch is wide enough for you.
> (2) install and use QTR
> (3) if you like it, send Roy the $50
> (4) enjoy making prints
> 
> If you don't like QTR, that's when life gets
> complicated.  You have 
> choice of:
> 
> (1) continuing with OEM inks + RIP.  This will not
> necessarily be 
> better than QTR, or
> (2) putting-in 3rd party gary inks such as offered
> by MIS and Cone.
> 
> In my mind (and experience), there is no doubt that
> the best output 
> will come from 3rd party gray inks.  But the
> difference will be so 
> miniscule, that you will wonder why you went down
> that path, in the 
> process losing the ability to make color prints. 
> Only a year ago I 
> would have recomended to go with 3rd party inks and
> get a separate 
> printer for color (if that is an interest for you). 
> Not anymore.  
> For $50 QTR is an embarrasing bargain.  Oh, I have
> made and seen some 
> very compelling b/w prints from the 2200, 4000, and
> 7600 printers 
> with just the Epson driver, provided you have a good
> profile for your 
> paper, and you are not too finicky about metamerism.
>  The same cannot 
> be said for the older generation 1280 dye based
> inkset.
> 
> Good luck.
> 
> Shilesh
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com,
> Jeff Curto 
> <jeff@j...> wrote:
> > 
> > The collective wisdom of this group is phenomenal,
> so I'm looking 
> for some
> > opinions.
> > 
> > Once upon a time, I used Cone's Piezography
> Photoshop plug-in in 
> combination
> > with his inks on an Epson 1200 to make beautiful
> prints. Problem 
> was, for
> > every beautiful print I made, I made 20 that were
> "tossers" because 
> of ink
> > clogs, banding issues, etc, etc, etc.
> > 
> > I gave up.
> & gt; 
> > Recently, I've been using QTR on an Epson 2200
> (thanks, Roy!), and 
> I'm
> > impressed, mainly because it works on a nearly
> "plug-and-play" sort 
> of
> > fashion. I'd like a bit more richness in the
> blacks, but otherwise, 
> I'm
> > happy.
> > 
> > I also note that a number of users on this list
> are using Paul 
> Roark's
> > curves, and still others are using ImagePrint to
> drive various 
> printers.
> > 
> > I am also on a Piezography listserv, and note that
> the number of 
> messages in
> > that group has tailed off to nearly "zero" over
> the last few months,
> > suggesting that either users are busy making
> prints, or that, like 
> me,
> > they've abandoned ship, looking for a lower
> frustration 
> and "P.I.A." factor.
> > 
> > I'm considering buying an Epson 4000 for use with
> either QTR or 
> ImagePrint,
> > and before I make that large (size and price)
> leap, I'm seeking 
> opinions on
> > the st ate of B&W inkjet printing at this point in
> history.
> > 
> > *Is Piezography dead?
> > *Is the Epson 4000 worth the price of admission?
> > *Is ImagePrint superior to Roy's QTR? If so, why
> or 
=== message truncated ===


		
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I couldn’t agree more with this.

 

(
)  So if your image 
histogram is not clipped in the shadows, you will actually see a lot 
of shadow separation in the 90-100% region.  This will give 
the "impression" of weak black.  In reality what you are seeing is 
glorious shadow detail.  If you come from true darkroom printing 
tradition, this is the biggest thing to get used to, or so I am 
told.  If you come from Pt-Pd contact printing tradition, you will 
say amen!

Shilesh



 

Moises, maybe adjusting the “shadows” in QTR to the maximum value (50) and
the “midtones” to a lighter value, will get you closer to the blacks you
want.

José

-----Original Message-----
From: Moises Faidengold [mailto:mfaidengold@...] 
Sent: Friday, January 28, 2005 1:53 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Cc: Jani, Shilesh
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Piezography? Or, the state of the state.


Shilesh,

Interesting comments you make.
Now, let me be a little blunt. I have been playing with a 220o and 
the Epson inks and so far have not been able to get really dark 
blacks therefore I really would appreciate your input and/or 
suggestions as to what to do.
I also, tried with the QTR, but so far I have not fully satisfied 
with it.
And I really would like to keep having the capacity to print color 
with the 2200 therefore the route of the OEM inks is somewhat 
inconvenient. I have however a 1280 that I could convert to be a B&W 
only, any suggestions?

Regards

Moises

Shilesh Jani <shilesh.jani@...> wrote:

Jeff,

Here is what I would do.

(1) get the 4000 if 17 inch is wide enough for you.
(2) install and use QTR
(3) if you like it, send Roy the $50
(4) enjoy making prints

If you don't like QTR, that's when life gets complicated.  You have 
choice of:

(1) continuing with OEM inks + RIP.  This will not necessarily be 
better than QTR, or
(2) putting-in 3rd party gary inks such as offered by MIS and Cone.

In my mind (and experience), there is no doubt that the best output 
will come from 3rd party gray inks.  But the difference will be so 
miniscule, that you will wonder why you went down that path, in the 
process losing the ability to make color prints.  Only a year ago I 
would have recomended to go with 3rd party inks and get a separate 
printer for color (if that is an interest for you).  Not anymore.  
For $50 QTR is an embarrasing bargain.  Oh, I have made and seen some 
very compelling b/w prints from the 2200, 4000, and 7600 printers 
with just the Epson driver, provided you have a good profile for your 
paper, and you are not too finicky about metamerism.  The same cannot 
be said for the older generation 1280 dye based inkset.

Good luck.

Shilesh

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Jeff Curto 
<jeff@j...> wrote:
> 
> The collective wisdom of this group is phenomenal, so I'm looking 
for some
> opinions.
> 
> Once upon a time, I used Cone's Piezography Photoshop plug-in in 
combination
> with his inks on an Epson 1200 to make beautiful prints. Problem 
was, for
> every beautiful print I made, I made 20 that were "tossers" because 
of ink
> clogs, banding issues, etc, etc, etc.
> 
> I gave up.
& gt; 
> Recently, I've been using QTR on an Epson 2200 (thanks, Roy!), and 
I'm
> impressed, mainly because it works on a nearly "plug-and-play" sort 
of
> fashion. I'd like a bit more richness in the blacks, but otherwise, 
I'm
> happy.
> 
> I also note that a number of users on this list are using Paul 
Roark's
> curves, and still others are using ImagePrint to drive various 
printers.
> 
> I am also on a Piezography listserv, and note that the number of 
messages in
> that group has tailed off to nearly "zero" over the last few months,
> suggesting that either users are busy making prints, or that, like 
me,
> they've abandoned ship, looking for a lower frustration 
and "P.I.A." factor.
> 
> I'm considering buying an Epson 4000 for use with either QTR or 
ImagePrint,
> and before I make that large (size and price) leap, I'm seeking 
opinions on
> the st ate of B&W inkjet printing at this point in history.
> 
> *Is Piezography dead?
> *Is the Epson 4000 worth the price of admission?
> *Is ImagePrint superior to Roy's QTR? If so, why or how?
> 
> Thanks in advance for any insights that anyone might have.
> 
> -Jeff Curto





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BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF 
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__________________________________________________
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Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
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--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Moises 
Faidengold <mfaidengold@y...> wrote:
> Shilesh,
>  
> Interesting comments you make.
> Now, let me be a little blunt. I have been playing with a 220o and 
the Epson inks and so far have not been able to get really dark 
blacks therefore I really would appreciate your input and/or 
suggestions as to what to do.
> I also, tried with the QTR, but so far I have not fully satisfied 
with it.
> And I really would like to keep having the capacity to print color 
with the 2200 therefore the route of the OEM inks is somewhat 
inconvenient. I have however a 1280 that I could convert to be a B&W 
only, any suggestions?
>  
> Regards
>  
> Moises
> 
> Shilesh Jani <shilesh.jani@s...> wrote:
> 
> Jeff,
> 
> Here is what I would do.
> 
> (1) get the 4000 if 17 inch is wide enough for you.
> (2) install and use QTR
> (3) if you like it, send Roy the $50
> (4) enjoy making prints
> 
> If you don't like QTR, that's when life gets complicated.  You have 
> choice of:
> 
> (1) continuing with OEM inks + RIP.  This will not necessarily be 
> better than QTR, or
> (2) putting-in 3rd party gary inks such as offered by MIS and Cone.
> 
> In my mind (and experience), there is no doubt that the best output 
> will come from 3rd party gray inks.  But the difference will be so 
> miniscule, that you will wonder why you went down that path, in the 
> process losing the ability to make color prints.  Only a year ago I 
> would have recomended to go with 3rd party inks and get a separate 
> printer for color (if that is an interest for you).  Not anymore.  
> For $50 QTR is an embarrasing bargain.  Oh, I have made and seen 
some 
> very compelling b/w prints from the 2200, 4000, and 7600 printers 
> with just the Epson driver, provided you have a good profile for 
your 
> paper, and you are not too finicky about metamerism.  The same 
cannot 
> be said for the older generation 1280 dye based inkset.
> 
> Good luck.
> 
> Shilesh
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Jeff Curto 
> <jeff@j...> wrote:
> > 
> > The collective wisdom of this group is phenomenal, so I'm looking 
> for some
> > opinions.
> > 
> > Once upon a time, I used Cone's Piezography Photoshop plug-in in 
> combination
> > with his inks on an Epson 1200 to make beautiful prints. Problem 
> was, for
> > every beautiful print I made, I made 20 that were "tossers" 
because 
> of ink
> > clogs, banding issues, etc, etc, etc.
> > 
> > I gave up.
> > 
> > Recently, I've been using QTR on an Epson 2200 (thanks, Roy!), 
and 
> I'm
> > impressed, mainly because it works on a nearly "plug-and-play" 
sort 
> of
> > fashion. I'd like a bit more richness in the blacks, but 
otherwise, 
> I'm
> > happy.
> > 
> > I also note that a number of users on this list are using Paul 
> Roark's
> > curves, and still others are using ImagePrint to drive various 
> printers.
> > 
> > I am also on a Piezography listserv, and note that the number of 
> messages in
> > that group has tailed off to nearly "zero" over the last few 
months,
> > suggesting that either users are busy making prints, or that, 
like 
> me,
> > they've abandoned ship, looking for a lower frustration 
> and "P.I.A." factor.
> > 
> > I'm considering buying an Epson 4000 for use with either QTR or 
> ImagePrint,
> > and before I make that large (size and price) leap, I'm seeking 
> opinions on
> > the state of B&W inkjet printing at this point in history.
> > 
> > *Is Piezography dead?
> > *Is the Epson 4000 worth the price of admission?
> > *Is ImagePrint superior to Roy's QTR? If so, why or how?
> > 
> > Thanks in advance for any insights that anyone might have.
> > 
> > -Jeff Curto
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
resources as they are often being updated.
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you 
wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by 
visiting this same page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
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> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules 
and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the 
group Owner and Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" 
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> 
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PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT 
THE "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP 
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BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF 
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> 
> 
> 
> 
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> You get get stronger black using the photo lack ink on resin coated 
> papers, but that introduces bronzing problems and a very warm tone.

I use ImagePrint on Epson Semi-Matte, and there is no problem of a warm tone (i.e., with 
Ulttrachrome inks). In any case, the ImagePrint Tint Picker facility allows "toning" in fairly 
wide range, also split-toning (IP6). 

However, there is still a bronzing problem which largely disappears by waxing with 
Renaissance Wax -- I suppose that spraying with PrintGuard or similar spays has a similar 
effect, but I haven't been able to try this because these products are not available here.

But my current solution to bronzing is to laminate the prints: I have the prints hot 
laminated with 2-3 coats (glossy surface), which inceases the Dmax and saturation 
substantially -- and no one can tell these are not silver prints. Indeed, the look is that of 
face-mounted prints on acrylic (plexiglass). Here in Bangkok it costs me only $10 to have 
24x36 inch print hot laminated (by hand) and mounted on MDF with a one-inch frame 
behind it, but in the states and Europe, the cost for similar might be around $200. But you 
can cold laminate on a press quite inexpensively, I believe.

--Mitch/Bangkok

Mitch,

You raise a very important distinction between the canned QTR set-up 
and IP.  I believe with QTR on UC inks the preponderence of inks 
layed down are black, and light black.  Light magenta and light cyan 
are used only to control warm/cool/selenium (although they provide 
density too).  Yellow is used only on sepia curves.  No use is made 
of magenta and cyan inks, specifically to reduce/eliminate 
metamerism.  The Photoblack ink of UC is supposed to be extremely 
warm (more so than matte black), and is difficult to neutralize with 
just the light magenta and light cyan.  IP may work differently, but 
could introduce the dreaded metamerism, and infact I remember seeing 
a demo of IP where b/w prints were made with specific viewing 
conditions in mind.  Not an issue for many people - but I find hue 
shifts rather annoying.

Shilesh

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "alland20854" 
<mitcha@m...> wrote:
> 
> > You get get stronger black using the photo lack ink on resin 
coated 
> > papers, but that introduces bronzing problems and a very warm 
tone.
> 
> I use ImagePrint on Epson Semi-Matte, and there is no problem of a 
warm tone (i.e., with 
> Ulttrachrome inks). In any case, the ImagePrint Tint Picker 
facility allows "toning" in fairly 
> wide range, also split-toning (IP6). 
> 
> However, there is still a bronzing problem which largely disappears 
by waxing with 
> Renaissance Wax -- I suppose that spraying with PrintGuard or 
similar spays has a similar 
> effect, but I haven't been able to try this because these products 
are not available here.
> 
> But my current solution to bronzing is to laminate the prints: I 
have the prints hot 
> laminated with 2-3 coats (glossy surface), which inceases the Dmax 
and saturation 
> substantially -- and no one can tell these are not silver prints. 
Indeed, the look is that of 
> face-mounted prints on acrylic (plexiglass). Here in Bangkok it 
costs me only $10 to have 
> 24x36 inch print hot laminated (by hand) and mounted on MDF with a 
one-inch frame 
> behind it, but in the states and Europe, the cost for similar might 
be around $200. But you 

> can cold laminate on a press quite inexpensively, I believe.
> 
> --Mitch/Bangkok

>... the issue of "deep black" Dmax.
>I think you hit it right on the head, about inkjet printers...

My latest Epson Premium Semimatte ("PSM") prints have a dmax and dynamic
range that exceed the traditional B&W silver print by a significant margin.


I spray these with PremierArt Print Shield and dry mount them.  I think the
finish is very competitive with my air-dried fiber prints.

However, due to the spray, these have a washable surface (unlike a silver
print in my experience).   So, I'm experimenting with framing with no glass.
This eliminates the reflections and makes the entire dynamic range much more
accessible.  I think this is the best B&W medium I've seen.

So, I think matte paper is a major source of the problem.  It's not digital
or "carbon" printing, per se, that is the source of the low dmax.

The latest "barrier papers" (also known as "RC" prints) can hit between 2.3
and 2.5 dmax.  Silver in the lab hit 2.2, but in most of my real world
prints the dmax was about 1.9.  

I never liked the old RC silver prints.  But these latest inkjet materials,
when sprayed (or maybe "Glopped") have a very nice finish.  I especially
like the Semimatte finish.  It's not the old RC.

Another persuasive factor for me was is the Wilhelm ">200 years" rating to
the Epson Premium Semimatte, Semigloss & Luster papers.

With the barrier (polyethylene) in the back and the lacquer spray in the
front, these pigments are "encapsulated," offering some significant
protection from environmental hazards (abrasion, water, fingerprints, UV,
perhaps pollutants). 

Seeing is believing.  Try some or ...

I'll be hanging two 22x28, unglazed prints (and some other matte-under-glass
prints) in the local Gallery Los Olivos' "New Perspectives" show next month
(Feb. 2005).  I hope some forum members within easy driving distance will be
able to come by and see what these "encapsulated carbon" prints can do.  I
think silver has met its match.

So, back to the subject line, I think an increasingly large part of the way
forward requires glossy-compatible inks.

By the way, the Gallery Los Olivos reception on Feb. 5, from 2-4, is open to
all and all are invited.  Additionally I sit at the gallery Feb. 3.  Hope to
see a few of you.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Shilesh:

> IP may work differently, but 
> could introduce the dreaded metamerism, and infact I remember seeing 
> a demo of IP where b/w prints were made with specific viewing 
> conditions in mind.  Not an issue for many people - but I find hue 
> shifts rather annoying.

Again, IP B&W prints are really neutral, and not warm at all. IP color profiles are made in 
several versions for different viewing environments (daylight, flourescent, mixed lighting, 
etc). The B&W profiles come in only one version, and the only problem for glossy-type 
papers like Epson Semi-Matte is some bronzing.

For B&W IP uses mainly the two black inks and some of the colors to fill in highlights, and 
does not use yellow at all, which also improves longevity, which apparently is the shortest 
for yellow.

--Mitch/Bangkok

I just got done printing on my mint 4000 BO on LexJet Premium 
SemiMatte, at 2880 dpi, hight speed ON.  Sure enough, it is 
incredible.  It warm to be sure, but that's OK by me.

So:  Life may be full of compromises, but life is also full of 
possibilities!

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> 
> >... the issue of "deep black" Dmax.
> >I think you hit it right on the head, about inkjet printers...
> 
> My latest Epson Premium Semimatte ("PSM") prints have a dmax and 
dynamic
> range that exceed the traditional B&W silver print by a significant 
margin.
> 
> 
> I spray these with PremierArt Print Shield and dry mount them.  I 
think the
> finish is very competitive with my air-dried fiber prints.
> 
> However, due to the spray, these have a washable surface (unlike a 
silver
> print in my experience).   So, I'm experimenting with framing with 
no glass.
> This eliminates the reflections and makes the entire dynamic range 
much more
> accessible.  I think this is the best B&W medium I've seen.
> 
> So, I think matte paper is a major source of the problem.  It's not 
digital
> or "carbon" printing, per se, that is the source of the low dmax.
> 
> The latest "barrier papers" (also known as "RC" prints) can hit 
between 2.3
> and 2.5 dmax.  Silver in the lab hit 2.2, but in most of my real 
world
> prints the dmax was about 1.9.  
> 
> I never liked the old RC silver prints.  But these latest inkjet 
materials,
> when sprayed (or maybe "Glopped") have a very nice finish.  I 
especially
> like the Semimatte finish.  It's not the old RC.
> 
> Another persuasive factor for me was is the Wilhelm ">200 years" 
rating to
> the Epson Premium Semimatte, Semigloss & Luster papers.
> 
> With the barrier (polyethylene) in the back and the lacquer spray 
in the
> front, these pigments are "encapsulated," offering some significant
> protection from environmental hazards (abrasion, water, 
fingerprints, UV,
> perhaps pollutants). 
> 
> Seeing is believing.  Try some or ...
> 
> I'll be hanging two 22x28, unglazed prints (and some other matte-
under-glass
> prints) in the local Gallery Los Olivos' "New Perspectives" show 
next month
> (Feb. 2005).  I hope some forum members within easy driving 
distance will be
> able to come by and see what these "encapsulated carbon" prints can 
do.  I
> think silver has met its match.
> 
> So, back to the subject line, I think an increasingly large part of 
the way
> forward requires glossy-compatible inks.
> 
> By the way, the Gallery Los Olivos reception on Feb. 5, from 2-4, 
is open to
> all and all are invited.  Additionally I sit at the gallery Feb. 
3.  Hope to

> see a few of you.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com

Paul:


> My latest Epson Premium Semimatte ("PSM") prints have a dmax and dynamic
> range that exceed the traditional B&W silver print by a significant margin.

1. What inks are you using? 
2. Do the ULtrachrome inks have the same dmax and dynamic range on Epson Premium 
Semimatte?

> I spray these with PremierArt Print Shield and dry mount them.  I think the
> finish is very competitive with my air-dried fiber prints.

Does the spray elominate bronzing? I also like Semi-Matte but have solved the bronzing 
problem, and increased dmax, by laminating as I mentioned in an earlier posting.


> So, I think matte paper is a major source of the problem.  It's not digital
> or "carbon" printing, per se, that is the source of the low dmax.

Absolutely, the problem is from matte paper: in his book, The Print, Ansel Adams states 
that the reflective range of glossy-typers is something like 1-100 while that of matte 
paper is 1-25, if I remember the numbers correctly. My feeling is that when people started 
printing b&w on inkjets, when the inks could not print on glossy papers, they made a 
virtue of necessity and then fell in love with heavy-weight papers and some of the matte 
textures. Of course, so some type of prints that rely mainly of mid-tones matte paper can 
be beuatiful; but if you want or nees deep blacks, there is no substitute for glossy-type 
papers.

> Seeing is believing.  Try some or ...

Yup.

--Mitch/Bangkok

Mitch,

A friend of mine who owns 2 7600's was totally frustrated with his 
b/w output on a fancy, expensive RIP (not IP) using all gray 
expensive inks.  In desperation, he printed the photograph on his 
color (photo black) 7600 using a profile he created for routine color 
work on that paper, I believe LexJet Prem Semimatte.  I'de be damned 
if it was not close to perfect, and certainly no objectionable 
metamersim.

So, I beileve you man!

Shilesh


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "alland20854" 
<mitcha@m...> wrote:
> 
> Shilesh:
> 
> > IP may work differently, but 
> > could introduce the dreaded metamerism, and infact I remember 
seeing 
> > a demo of IP where b/w prints were made with specific viewing 
> > conditions in mind.  Not an issue for many people - but I find 
hue 
> > shifts rather annoying.
> 
> Again, IP B&W prints are really neutral, and not warm at all. IP 
color profiles are made in 
> several versions for different viewing environments (daylight, 
flourescent, mixed lighting, 
> etc). The B&W profiles come in only one version, and the only 
problem for glossy-type 
> papers like Epson Semi-Matte is some bronzing.
> 
> For B&W IP uses mainly the two black inks and some of the colors to 
fill in highlights, and 
> does not use yellow at all, which also improves longevity, which 
apparently is the shortest 

> for yellow.
> 
> --Mitch/Bangkok

Hello Shilesh,

>I just got done printing on my mint 4000 BO on LexJet Premium 
>SemiMatte, at 2880 dpi, hight speed ON.  Sure enough, it is 
>incredible.  It warm to be sure, but that's OK by me.

What ink were you using?


Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Clayon,

It was Epson photo black.  I am going to try printing on Pictorico 
glossy apper, which bronzes relatively less.

Shilesh



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clayton Jones" 
<cj@c...> wrote:

> 
> Hello Shilesh,
> 
> >I just got done printing on my mint 4000 BO on LexJet Premium 
> >SemiMatte, at 2880 dpi, hight speed ON.  Sure enough, it is 
> >incredible.  It warm to be sure, but that's OK by me.
> 
> What ink were you using?
> 
> 
> Regards,
> Clayton
> 
> 
> Info on black and white digital printing at    
> http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Mitch,


>> My latest Epson Premium Semimatte ("PSM") prints have a dmax and 
>>dynamic range that exceed the traditional B&W silver print 
>>by a significant margin.

>1. What inks are you using? 

The prints I'm hanging were made on the 7500 with my UT-FSN+ (modified MIS
UT-FSN -- see http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/7500-FS-Readme.htm ).  

>2. Do the ULtrachrome inks have the same dmax and dynamic range 
>on Epson Premium Semimatte?

I would think so -- or close.

>> I spray these with PremierArt Print Shield and dry mount them.  
>>I think the finish is very competitive with my air-dried fiber prints.

>Does the spray elominate bronzing?

Yes.

> I also like Semi-Matte but have solved the bronzing 
>problem, and increased dmax, by laminating ...

That works.  

>> So, I think matte paper is a major source of the problem.  
>>It's not digital or "carbon" printing, per se, that is the 
>>source of the low dmax.

>Absolutely, the problem is from matte paper: in his book, The Print, 
>Ansel Adams states that the reflective range of glossy-typers is 
>something like 1-100 while that of matte paper is 1-25, ...

There is a place for both, but the "glossy" (not a very good term for these
semi-matte prints) or "barrier" papers and pigment printing technology seem
to be coming of age.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

>I just got done printing on my mint 4000 BO on LexJet Premium 
>SemiMatte, at 2880 dpi, hight speed ON.  Sure enough, it is 
>incredible.  It warm to be sure, but that's OK by me.

Those that don't like warm are going to love the soon-to-be-available PK-N.
A big dmax, neutral-cool photo black, in combination with the newest papers,
will make color + B&W in the 4000 a very serious contender as the do-it-all
printer.  BO glossies also have lower bronzing by their nature.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Paul,

Make them hurry up - I can't wait.  And.....I've heard romours about 
an RC (top coat) version of a very popular 100% cotton paper.

Shilesh

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> 
> >I just got done printing on my mint 4000 BO on LexJet Premium 
> >SemiMatte, at 2880 dpi, hight speed ON.  Sure enough, it is 
> >incredible.  It warm to be sure, but that's OK by me.
> 
> Those that don't like warm are going to love the soon-to-be-
available PK-N.
> A big dmax, neutral-cool photo black, in combination with the 
newest papers,
> will make color + B&W in the 4000 a very serious contender as the 
do-it-all

> printer.  BO glossies also have lower bronzing by their nature.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com

Shilesh

  you saoid "And.....I've heard romours about an RC
(top coat) version of a very popular 100% cotton
paper."

just curious, what have you heard?

john r

I don't have any inside info on IP but I'm pretty sure that QTR and IP work
on exactly the same principle.  The color inks have the most metamerism
so both RIPs use a minimum amount of color ink.  Curves/profiles are primarily
black and light-black.   But the light-black especially is nowhere close to
neutral tone, so a smaller amount of light-cyan and light-magenta are added to
neutralize the color tone.  Since we're neutralizing a warm, yellowish light-black
there is no need for yellow and minimizing color pigments therefore means
yellow is not used at all.  I don't think metamerism is an yes/no issue, its a
matter of degree.  So you don't necessarily eliminate it completely, you just
minimize it by minimizing the color pigments.  This also is true of gray inksets
that have the color pigments pre-mixed in.

Roy


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Shilesh Jani" 
<shilesh.jani@s...> wrote:

> 
> Mitch,
> 
> You raise a very important distinction between the canned QTR set-up 
> and IP.  I believe with QTR on UC inks the preponderence of inks 
> layed down are black, and light black.  Light magenta and light cyan 
> are used only to control warm/cool/selenium (although they provide 
> density too).  Yellow is used only on sepia curves.  No use is made 
> of magenta and cyan inks, specifically to reduce/eliminate 
> metamerism.  The Photoblack ink of UC is supposed to be extremely 
> warm (more so than matte black), and is difficult to neutralize with 
> just the light magenta and light cyan.  IP may work differently, but 
> could introduce the dreaded metamerism, and infact I remember seeing 
> a demo of IP where b/w prints were made with specific viewing 
> conditions in mind.  Not an issue for many people - but I find hue 
> shifts rather annoying.
> 
> Shilesh
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "alland20854" 
> <mitcha@m...> wrote:
> > 
> > > You get get stronger black using the photo lack ink on resin 
> coated 
> > > papers, but that introduces bronzing problems and a very warm 
> tone.
> > 
> > I use ImagePrint on Epson Semi-Matte, and there is no problem of a 
> warm tone (i.e., with 
> > Ulttrachrome inks). In any case, the ImagePrint Tint Picker 
> facility allows "toning" in fairly 
> > wide range, also split-toning (IP6). 
> > 
> > However, there is still a bronzing problem which largely disappears 
> by waxing with 
> > Renaissance Wax -- I suppose that spraying with PrintGuard or 
> similar spays has a similar 
> > effect, but I haven't been able to try this because these products 
> are not available here.
> > 
> > But my current solution to bronzing is to laminate the prints: I 
> have the prints hot 
> > laminated with 2-3 coats (glossy surface), which inceases the Dmax 
> and saturation 
> > substantially -- and no one can tell these are not silver prints. 
> Indeed, the look is that of 
> > face-mounted prints on acrylic (plexiglass). Here in Bangkok it 
> costs me only $10 to have 
> > 24x36 inch print hot laminated (by hand) and mounted on MDF with a 
> one-inch frame 
> > behind it, but in the states and Europe, the cost for similar might 
> be around $200. But you 
> > can cold laminate on a press quite inexpensively, I believe.
> > 
> > --Mitch/Bangkok

>>To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
>>Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Re: Piezography? Or, the state of the state.

If you take the Cone route you can have customised profiles of any paper
produced for a fee by the Cone organisation

If you take the Imageprint route you can most certainly produce your own
profiles for use with this RIP - mind you weather they will be better than
the ones supplied by Colorbyte is open to discussion.

Richard

---
[This E-mail has been scanned for viruses but it is your responsibility 
to maintain up to date anti virus software on the device that you are
currently using to read this email. ]

Paul,

Is the density of the UT7 light black close enough to the MIS LK or 
Epson LK that it could also be used as a substitute in the 2200 and 
4000?  The UT7 LK and PK-N would give us two neutral blacks that could 
be profiled with QTR or IJC to yield a smoother neutral print than BO.  
New color profiles would be needed, but that is not a problem as long 
as the LK density is reasonably close to the original LK.

Carl

On Jan 28, 2005, at 10:42 PM, Paul Roark wrote:

>
>
>> I just got done printing on my mint 4000 BO on LexJet Premium
>> SemiMatte, at 2880 dpi, hight speed ON.  Sure enough, it is
>> incredible.  It warm to be sure, but that's OK by me.
>
> Those that don't like warm are going to love the soon-to-be-available 
> PK-N.
> A big dmax, neutral-cool photo black, in combination with the newest 
> papers,
> will make color + B&W in the 4000 a very serious contender as the 
> do-it-all
> printer.  BO glossies also have lower bronzing by their nature.
>
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>
>

Shilesh

QTR uses a flag called UC_Neutraliser to copy the LK curve to the LC and LM
position when using the UC inks.  What this means is that the LC and LM inks
are used to neutralise the LK only.  You can look at the hue of the combined
ink by printing the UC calibration chart in calibration mode.  I know these
things aren't visible to PC users yet but they are there for the Mac guys to
see and use.  For a cool curve we use equal amounts of LC and LM to cool the
LK.  In essence it is this adjusted LK that gets partitioned with K to make
a cool curve.  With the warm UC curves the LK is not cooled.   With sepia, a
little yellow is added to the LK.

Steve

> From: Shilesh Jani <shilesh.jani@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 01:43:07 -0000
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: [Digital BW] Roy Correct Me If I Am Wrong:  Piezography? Or, the
> state of the state. (Roy
> 
> 
> 
> Mitch,
> 
> You raise a very important distinction between the canned QTR set-up
> and IP.  I believe with QTR on UC inks the preponderence of inks
> layed down are black, and light black.  Light magenta and light cyan
> are used only to control warm/cool/selenium (although they provide
> density too).  Yellow is used only on sepia curves.  No use is made
> of magenta and cyan inks, specifically to reduce/eliminate
> metamerism.  The Photoblack ink of UC is supposed to be extremely
> warm (more so than matte black), and is difficult to neutralize with
> just the light magenta and light cyan.  IP may work differently, but
> could introduce the dreaded metamerism, and infact I remember seeing
> a demo of IP where b/w prints were made with specific viewing
> conditions in mind.  Not an issue for many people - but I find hue
> shifts rather annoying.
> 
> Shilesh

Carl,

>Is the density of the UT7 light black close enough to the MIS LK or 
>Epson LK that it could also be used as a substitute in the 2200 and 
>4000? 

Yes, they should be the same.  The UT7 LK is supposed to be LK-N.  Something
I saw made me wonder if MIS is shipping standard LK instead, however.  So,
I'd want to verify that.

> The UT7 LK and PK-N would give us two neutral blacks that could 
>be profiled with QTR or IJC to yield a smoother neutral print than BO.

Yes, and while another thread is concerned with dots under a loupe, for
those interested in glossy paper, less and denser inks usually result in
better prints -- at least with the better printers.  There are going to be a
lot of people simply printing PKN BO with their UC printers that are filled
with color inks.  (It may be that people will be better off with MIS UC
clone color inks if the coated-uncoated transition looks spotty, which it
did on my 7500.)

>New color profiles would be needed, but that is not a problem as long 
>as the LK density is reasonably close to the original LK.

Probably true.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 


___________________________
On Jan 28, 2005, at 10:42 PM, Paul Roark wrote:

>
>
>> I just got done printing on my mint 4000 BO on LexJet Premium
>> SemiMatte, at 2880 dpi, hight speed ON.  Sure enough, it is
>> incredible.  It warm to be sure, but that's OK by me.
>
> Those that don't like warm are going to love the soon-to-be-available 
> PK-N.
> A big dmax, neutral-cool photo black, in combination with the newest 
> papers,
> will make color + B&W in the 4000 a very serious contender as the 
> do-it-all
> printer.  BO glossies also have lower bronzing by their nature.
>
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>
>




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Hi Paul

LK-N?  Now I am confused.  I have LK inks from MIS that are labelled
ESC2200-4-LK which came with my 21/2200 CFS and also ESC-7600-4-LK which I
bought separately simply as a "refill".  I understood these are the same and
that they are the MIS Ultrachrome equivalent inks.  I read that UT7 contains
a custom light black and (1) thought this was actually just the same LK as
the above and (2) that LK was of little use in a 21/2200 and hence could be
dumped in favour of "glop".

Steve

> From: Paul Roark <paul.roark@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 08:42:49 -0800
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Re: Piezography? Or, the state of the state.
> 
> 
> Carl,
> 
>> Is the density of the UT7 light black close enough to the MIS LK or
>> Epson LK that it could also be used as a substitute in the 2200 and
>> 4000? 
> 
> Yes, they should be the same.  The UT7 LK is supposed to be LK-N.  Something
> I saw made me wonder if MIS is shipping standard LK instead, however.  So,
> I'd want to verify that.
> 
>> The UT7 LK and PK-N would give us two neutral blacks that could
>> be profiled with QTR or IJC to yield a smoother neutral print than BO.
> 
> Yes, and while another thread is concerned with dots under a loupe, for
> those interested in glossy paper, less and denser inks usually result in
> better prints -- at least with the better printers.  There are going to be a
> lot of people simply printing PKN BO with their UC printers that are filled
> with color inks.  (It may be that people will be better off with MIS UC
> clone color inks if the coated-uncoated transition looks spotty, which it
> did on my 7500.)
> 
>> New color profiles would be needed, but that is not a problem as long
>> as the LK density is reasonably close to the original LK.
> 
> Probably true.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com

Steve,

>LK-N?  Now I am confused.  I have LK inks from MIS that are labelled
>ESC2200-4-LK which came with my 21/2200 CFS and also ESC-7600-4-LK which I
>bought separately simply as a "refill".  I understood these are the 
>same and that they are the MIS Ultrachrome equivalent inks.

Yes, they are just UC LK clones -- quite warm.

> I read that UT7 contains a custom light black

Yes, it should be different, neutral LK.  I call it LK-N.

>and (1) thought this was actually just the same LK as the above

It is not supposed to be.  With the Epson driver and printing with the
sliders, the standard LK causes warmer shadows than I like.

>and (2) that LK was of little use in a 21/2200 

It is significant only when the sliders are used with the Epson driver.
Recall that the 2200/2100 with the UT7 inksets is also an "EZ" inkset that
can be printed without Photoshop or a RIP.  That entry-level and fall-back
position is important to a significant part of the user base.  You power
users are a minority.  Most want to hit "print" and get an excellent B&W
print.

>and hence could be dumped in favour of "glop".

I'm hoping the Y position works for the glop, because that makes it
consistent with the default, "EZ" approach and Epson driver.  On the 1280,
it works very well and preserves the UT2 "EZ" printing.  RIP users have more
options, but the larger market is important for the long term success of the
medium, in my view.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 

_____________________

> From: Paul Roark <paul.roark@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 08:42:49 -0800
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Re: Piezography? Or, the state of the state.
> 
> 
> Carl,
> 
>> Is the density of the UT7 light black close enough to the MIS LK or
>> Epson LK that it could also be used as a substitute in the 2200 and
>> 4000? 
> 
> Yes, they should be the same.  The UT7 LK is supposed to be LK-N.
Something
> I saw made me wonder if MIS is shipping standard LK instead, however.  So,
> I'd want to verify that.
> 
>> The UT7 LK and PK-N would give us two neutral blacks that could
>> be profiled with QTR or IJC to yield a smoother neutral print than BO.
> 
> Yes, and while another thread is concerned with dots under a loupe, for
> those interested in glossy paper, less and denser inks usually result in
> better prints -- at least with the better printers.  There are going to be
a
> lot of people simply printing PKN BO with their UC printers that are
filled
> with color inks.  (It may be that people will be better off with MIS UC
> clone color inks if the coated-uncoated transition looks spotty, which it
> did on my 7500.)
> 
>> New color profiles would be needed, but that is not a problem as long
>> as the LK density is reasonably close to the original LK.
> 
> Probably true.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com 





Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
they are often being updated.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.

Please follow these basic guidelines:
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
membership without notice.
- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from
the membership.
- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and
Moderators. See Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines in the Files section:
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BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE OWNER AND
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DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS,
GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  OWNER AND
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Yahoo! Groups Links

OK got it - thanks.  When I ordered the balance of the UT7 inks (keeping the
UT2 warm inks) I did not order the LK(-N).  I think that's ok for where I am
heading  ie a PK and the two dark and medium greys (either alone or cooled
for neutral/cool).  Thanks

> From: Paul Roark <paul.roark@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 09:45:00 -0800
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Re: Piezography? Or, the state of the state.
> 
> 
> Steve,
> 
>> LK-N?  Now I am confused.  I have LK inks from MIS that are labelled
>> ESC2200-4-LK which came with my 21/2200 CFS and also ESC-7600-4-LK which I
>> bought separately simply as a "refill".  I understood these are the
>> same and that they are the MIS Ultrachrome equivalent inks.
> 
> Yes, they are just UC LK clones -- quite warm.
> 
>> I read that UT7 contains a custom light black
> 
> Yes, it should be different, neutral LK.  I call it LK-N.
> 
>> and (1) thought this was actually just the same LK as the above
> 
> It is not supposed to be.  With the Epson driver and printing with the
> sliders, the standard LK causes warmer shadows than I like.
> 
>> and (2) that LK was of little use in a 21/2200
> 
> It is significant only when the sliders are used with the Epson driver.
> Recall that the 2200/2100 with the UT7 inksets is also an "EZ" inkset that
> can be printed without Photoshop or a RIP.  That entry-level and fall-back
> position is important to a significant part of the user base.  You power
> users are a minority.  Most want to hit "print" and get an excellent B&W
> print.
> 
>> and hence could be dumped in favour of "glop".
> 
> I'm hoping the Y position works for the glop, because that makes it
> consistent with the default, "EZ" approach and Epson driver.  On the 1280,
> it works very well and preserves the UT2 "EZ" printing.  RIP users have more
> options, but the larger market is important for the long term success of the
> medium, in my view.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
> 
>

I can confirm Paul's statement below.  I would urge anyone with an Epson 4000 who wants 
an easy solution for printing both color and neutral B&W to try the new neutral MIS PKN 
Photo black ink.  I just finished printing some of the best neutral 16x20 inch B&W prints 
I've ever made using PKN black only on Epson Premium Semimatte paper, printed at 2880 
dpi.  There is no significant bronzing or gloss differential with the Epson premium 
semimatte so neither glop nor spray treatment are absolutely required.  Nice smooth, 
neutral grays with no dots visible without a loop.

Carl Schofield

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" <paul.roark@v...> 
wrote:

> 
> >I just got done printing on my mint 4000 BO on LexJet Premium 
> >SemiMatte, at 2880 dpi, hight speed ON.  Sure enough, it is 
> >incredible.  It warm to be sure, but that's OK by me.
> 
> Those that don't like warm are going to love the soon-to-be-available PK-N.
> A big dmax, neutral-cool photo black, in combination with the newest papers,
> will make color + B&W in the 4000 a very serious contender as the do-it-all
> printer.  BO glossies also have lower bronzing by their nature.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com