Digital BW, The Print

www.billbrandt.com/News/Current%20Exhibitions/Press%
20release/pressreleasefkg.html

I'm driving down to Los Angeles from Monterey to see this important 
Bill Brandt exhibit...the press release I've cited here is overblown, 
but Brandt's work certainly is well known to anybody who's taken a 
serious interest in B&W photography outside the confines of scenics. 

 Brandt's images should be especially exciting, rather than 
merely "precious," when seen in grand scale and with the extra 
control that's so readily available with inkjet printing..."carbon" 
printing as the gallery labels it in the Los Angeles Times.  

"He excelled in all fields - social, Surrealism, night photography, 
documentary, landscape, portraiture and the nude."

"Brandt's nudes are also considered as his most innovative work. "In 
photography only Edward Weston has made nudes of equal power," said 
John Szarkowski, Director Emeritus of MoMA's Department of 
Photography. Dramatic use of the contrasting values of black and 
white, and exploration of optical deformations, cause the nudes to 
read as daring studies in abstractions, somewhat reminiscent of Henry 
Moore's sculptures.

"Carbon was one of the earliest substances used to produce 
photographic prints. The first known image-forming use of carbon 
pigment was in the Paleolithic Chauvet-Pont-d'Arc cave in France some 
30,000 years ago. More recently, the first photographic Carbon Print 
process was developed by Adolphe Poitevin in France in 1856."

"An important aspect of the process is that it is an ink on paper 
medium, not a light-sensitive emulsion, and therefore is more akin to 
gravure than to silver or platinum prints. Carbon printing is still 
practised today in various forms by those who revere a more permanent 
image."

>"Carbon was one of the earliest substances used to produce 
>photographic prints. The first known image-forming use of carbon 
>pigment was in the Paleolithic Chauvet-Pont-d'Arc cave in France
>some 30,000 years ago. More recently, the first photographic 
>Carbon Print process was developed by Adolphe Poitevin in France 
>in 1856."
> 
>"An important aspect of the process is that it is an ink on paper 
>medium, not a light-sensitive emulsion, and therefore is more akin
>to gravure than to silver or platinum prints. Carbon printing is 
>still practised today in various forms by those who revere a more
>permanent image."
>

Sounds like someone has been reading my website.  Compare the above
with these quotes from my article "What To Call Them" (written over a
year ago) on my web site at

  http://www.cjcom.net/articles/digiprn6.htm

-------------------------
"Carbon was the earliest substance used to produce long lasting
photographic prints.  The first Carbon Print process was developed by
Adolphe L. Poitevin in France in 1856 in response to a monetary prize
offered for the first person to devise a permanent photographic
printing process  (from The History Of Photography by Beaumont
Newhall, page 60).  Carbon Printing in various forms is still
practiced today by people who love to keep the old processes alive."

"One of the key aspects of inkjet printing is that it is an ink on
paper process, not a light-sensitive emulsion, and therefore is more
closely related to Photogravure than to silver or platinum."
-------------------------

They have pretty much lifted my text and rearranged it slightly.  The
mention of the "Chauvet-Pont-d'Arc cave" probably came from one of
Paul's posts here, or maybe it's on his web site...

Should I be angry or flattered? [g].


Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

At least they should give you a source credit or reference Clayton.

This same new type of "web plagiarism" is becoming more prevalent all  
the time. A new fine art printing company is using our rearranged  
text and web design right down to the menu tabs, even though they  
don't even offer those services! It irks me to see our efforts on  
another site.

Hold your head high Clayton. I don't think there's much we can do  
about copyright on website content.

Cheers,

John Toles
www.dragonflyprinting.com

On Jul 19, 2005, at 11:22 AM, Clayton Jones wrote:

>> "Carbon was one of the earliest substances used to produce
>> photographic prints. The first known image-forming use of carbon
>> pigment was in the Paleolithic Chauvet-Pont-d'Arc cave in France
>> some 30,000 years ago. More recently, the first photographic
>> Carbon Print process was developed by Adolphe Poitevin in France
>> in 1856."
>>
>> "An important aspect of the process is that it is an ink on paper
>> medium, not a light-sensitive emulsion, and therefore is more akin
>> to gravure than to silver or platinum prints. Carbon printing is
>> still practised today in various forms by those who revere a more
>> permanent image."
>>
>>
>
> Sounds like someone has been reading my website.  Compare the above
> with these quotes from my article "What To Call Them" (written over a
> year ago) on my web site at
>
>   http://www.cjcom.net/articles/digiprn6.htm
>
> -------------------------
> "Carbon was the earliest substance used to produce long lasting
> photographic prints.  The first Carbon Print process was developed by
> Adolphe L. Poitevin in France in 1856 in response to a monetary prize
> offered for the first person to devise a permanent photographic
> printing process  (from The History Of Photography by Beaumont
> Newhall, page 60).  Carbon Printing in various forms is still
> practiced today by people who love to keep the old processes alive."
>
> "One of the key aspects of inkjet printing is that it is an ink on
> paper process, not a light-sensitive emulsion, and therefore is more
> closely related to Photogravure than to silver or platinum."
> -------------------------
>
> They have pretty much lifted my text and rearranged it slightly.  The
> mention of the "Chauvet-Pont-d'Arc cave" probably came from one of
> Paul's posts here, or maybe it's on his web site...
>
> Should I be angry or flattered? [g].
>
>
> Regards,
> Clayton
>
>
> Info on black and white digital printing at
> http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Actually, Web site publishing is covered by copyright just like anything else.  You can e-
mail or call any infringer and demand they remove your stolen copy or threaten legal 
action if you desire.

Tariq


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Dragonfly Imaging & Printing 
<dragonfly.printing@s...> wrote:

> At least they should give you a source credit or reference Clayton.
> 
> This same new type of "web plagiarism" is becoming more prevalent all  
> the time. A new fine art printing company is using our rearranged  
> text and web design right down to the menu tabs, even though they  
> don't even offer those services! It irks me to see our efforts on  
> another site.
> 
> Hold your head high Clayton. I don't think there's much we can do  
> about copyright on website content.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> John Toles
> www.dragonflyprinting.com
> 
> On Jul 19, 2005, at 11:22 AM, Clayton Jones wrote:
> 
> >> "Carbon was one of the earliest substances used to produce
> >> photographic prints. The first known image-forming use of carbon
> >> pigment was in the Paleolithic Chauvet-Pont-d'Arc cave in France
> >> some 30,000 years ago. More recently, the first photographic
> >> Carbon Print process was developed by Adolphe Poitevin in France
> >> in 1856."
> >>
> >> "An important aspect of the process is that it is an ink on paper
> >> medium, not a light-sensitive emulsion, and therefore is more akin
> >> to gravure than to silver or platinum prints. Carbon printing is
> >> still practised today in various forms by those who revere a more
> >> permanent image."
> >>
> >>
> >
> > Sounds like someone has been reading my website.  Compare the above
> > with these quotes from my article "What To Call Them" (written over a
> > year ago) on my web site at
> >
> >   http://www.cjcom.net/articles/digiprn6.htm
> >
> > -------------------------
> > "Carbon was the earliest substance used to produce long lasting
> > photographic prints.  The first Carbon Print process was developed by
> > Adolphe L. Poitevin in France in 1856 in response to a monetary prize
> > offered for the first person to devise a permanent photographic
> > printing process  (from The History Of Photography by Beaumont
> > Newhall, page 60).  Carbon Printing in various forms is still
> > practiced today by people who love to keep the old processes alive."
> >
> > "One of the key aspects of inkjet printing is that it is an ink on
> > paper process, not a light-sensitive emulsion, and therefore is more
> > closely related to Photogravure than to silver or platinum."
> > -------------------------
> >
> > They have pretty much lifted my text and rearranged it slightly.  The
> > mention of the "Chauvet-Pont-d'Arc cave" probably came from one of
> > Paul's posts here, or maybe it's on his web site...
> >
> > Should I be angry or flattered? [g].
> >
> >
> > Regards,
> > Clayton
> >
> >
> > Info on black and white digital printing at
> > http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

From the Bill Brandt Gallery section of the web site: 
http://www.billbrandt.com/Gallery/galleryentrance.html\

______________________________
______________________________
Carbon Prints

Brandt in BIG size. Our latest portfolio is produced by master 
printmakers Adamson Editions who have collaborated with some of the 
most influential artists working today including Harry Callahan, Bruce 
Weber, and Annie Leibovitz.


  ----------

SIZE

  ----------


Print size: 30 x 40 in (51 x 100 cm) Edition of 25
______________________________
______________________________


Adamson Editions is a digital printer using, it would appear, Epson 
printers with OEM inks!




On Jul 18, 2005, at 8:30 PM, Djon wrote:

>  www.billbrandt.com/News/Current%20Exhibitions/Press%
> 20release/pressreleasefkg.html
>
> I'm driving down to Los Angeles from Monterey to see this important
> Bill Brandt exhibit...the press release I've cited here is overblown,
> but Brandt's work certainly is well known to anybody who's taken a
> serious interest in B&W photography outside the confines of scenics.
>
>  Brandt's images should be especially exciting, rather than
> merely "precious," when seen in grand scale and with the extra
> control that's so readily available with inkjet printing..."carbon"
> printing as the gallery labels it in the Los Angeles Times.
>
> "He excelled in all fields - social, Surrealism, night photography,
> documentary, landscape, portraiture and the nude."
>
> "Brandt's nudes are also considered as his most innovative work. "In
> photography only Edward Weston has made nudes of equal power," said
> John Szarkowski, Director Emeritus of MoMA's Department of
> Photography. Dramatic use of the contrasting values of black and
> white, and exploration of optical deformations, cause the nudes to
> read as daring studies in abstractions, somewhat reminiscent of Henry
> Moore's sculptures.
>
> "Carbon was one of the earliest substances used to produce
> photographic prints. The first known image-forming use of carbon
> pigment was in the Paleolithic Chauvet-Pont-d'Arc cave in France some
> 30,000 years ago. More recently, the first photographic Carbon Print
> process was developed by Adolphe Poitevin in France in 1856."
>
> "An important aspect of the process is that it is an ink on paper
> medium, not a light-sensitive emulsion, and therefore is more akin to
> gravure than to silver or platinum prints. Carbon printing is still
> practised today in various forms by those who revere a more permanent
> image."
>
>
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
> resources as they are often being updated.
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish 
> to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting 
> this same page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to 
> keep them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or 
> flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from 
> the membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital 
> B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be 
> removed from the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and 
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group 
> Owner and Moderators. See �Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines� in the 
> Files section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
>
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE 
> PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE �OWNER� 
> AND �MODERATORS� OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE 
> LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, 
> CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, 
> DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE 
> LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  �OWNER� AND �MODERATORS� OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT 
> YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), 
> RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, 
> THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF 
> YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD 
> PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER 
> MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hello John,

>At least they should give you a source credit or reference Clayton.
> 
>This same new type of "web plagiarism" is becoming more prevalent 
>all the time. A new fine art printing company is using our 
>rearranged text and web design right down to the menu tabs, even 
>though they don't even offer those services! It irks me to see our 
>efforts on another site.
> 
>Hold your head high Clayton. I don't think there's much we can do  
>about copyright on website content.

Thank you.  I have sent them an email asking them to add a credit with
a link to the article.  I'll post the results here.

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

>They should be called inkjet prints, that's what they are. If further
>elaboration by inclusion of materials like carbon or process like
>quadtone are added that's fine, as it informs.

Szarkowski calls my prints "ink prints" which seems be far the best, most
succinct and accurate description I've encountered

Just as we often say "silver prints" "platinum prints" etc - after that we
can add our little comments in brackets or whatever (carbon pigment,
ultrachrome, quadtone etc etc)

It's becoming my standard descriptor for now

tim a

I don't know. I don't see anything wrong with inkjet or digital inkjet output as a 
description because there are many kinds of ink prints - including the still 
produced photogravure reproduction. Also the word "ink" could mean 
anything from poor quality offset inks,  good quality offset inks, silkscreen 
acrylic or oil based inks, very poor stability dye inks, or the finest carbon inks. 
It seems to me the only thing the term ink does is to distingish it from color 
coupler, dye bleach or other metalic based processes. ( although there are 
metallic inks too).

What is wrong with Carbon Based Inkjet Prints, like Carbon Based Lifeforms, 
not completely carbon........ but what the hell.....

How about just carbon based ink prints. Who cares how it is 
deposited or put down other than the person making the print?
Addendums can describe process for those interested or "concerned".

Regards
Duane

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "john dean" 
<deanwork2003@y...> wrote:
> I don't know. I don't see anything wrong with inkjet or digital 
inkjet output as a 
> description because there are many kinds of ink prints - including 
the still 
> produced photogravure reproduction. Also the word "ink" could mean 
> anything from poor quality offset inks,  good quality offset inks, 
silkscreen 
> acrylic or oil based inks, very poor stability dye inks, or the 
finest carbon inks. 
> It seems to me the only thing the term ink does is to distingish 
it from color 
> coupler, dye bleach or other metalic based processes. ( although 
there are 
> metallic inks too).
> 
> What is wrong with Carbon Based Inkjet Prints, like Carbon Based 
Lifeforms, 
> not completely carbon........ but what the hell.....

See, I think they're scaring you away from the word inkjet. But to each his own. 
There is a difference, a carbon ink print could very well be a photogravure 
which is a totally different technology. But to tell you the truth, when I send my 
work out I still call them digital pigment prints, what the hell, I don't know 
exactly what is in them because I'm no chemist, but they are pigments and 
they are produced digitally which has more of a bearing on the way they look 
than even the inkset used. But proably a more straightforward  description 
would be pigment inkjet prints. Because that is really what they are, and that 
is probably what I'll call them in the future. Even with that right now I'm doing 
three, soon to be four different types of pigment inkjet prints, all in the same 
room, all with different optical and longevity characteristics. I've got it now,  
how about just call it all photography and leave it at that.

John




--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "dlruckus" <
dlruckus@y...> wrote:

> How about just carbon based ink prints. Who cares how it is 
> deposited or put down other than the person making the print?
> Addendums can describe process for those interested or "concerned".
> 
> Regards
> Duane
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "john dean" 
> <deanwork2003@y...> wrote:
> > I don't know. I don't see anything wrong with inkjet or digital 
> inkjet output as a 
> > description because there are many kinds of ink prints - including 
> the still 
> > produced photogravure reproduction. Also the word "ink" could mean 
> > anything from poor quality offset inks,  good quality offset inks, 
> silkscreen 
> > acrylic or oil based inks, very poor stability dye inks, or the 
> finest carbon inks. 
> > It seems to me the only thing the term ink does is to distingish 
> it from color 
> > coupler, dye bleach or other metalic based processes. ( although 
> there are 
> > metallic inks too).
> > 
> > What is wrong with Carbon Based Inkjet Prints, like Carbon Based 
> Lifeforms, 
> > not completely carbon........ but what the hell.....

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "john dean" 
<deanwork2003@y...> wrote:
> See, I think they're scaring you away from the word inkjet. 

Why don't we all make up some silly word that sounds really 
sophisticated, yet is meaningless and start using that. Maybe 
something in French or Italian so it sounds kind of "artsy".
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.

Oh, wait..... that's already been done before. Well still won't hurt, 
let's make up another ;-]

That's a great idea, we could use latin. What is the latin word for inkjet?

I'm sure we can all agree on it, right?



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "dfaprinting" <
dfaprinting@y...> wrote:

> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "john dean" 
> <deanwork2003@y...> wrote:
> > See, I think they're scaring you away from the word inkjet. 
> 
> Why don't we all make up some silly word that sounds really 
> sophisticated, yet is meaningless and start using that. Maybe 
> something in French or Italian so it sounds kind of "artsy".
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> 
> Oh, wait..... that's already been done before. Well still won't hurt, 
> let's make up another ;-]

"john dean"  wrote:
> That's a great idea, we could use latin. What is the latin word for inkjet?
> I'm sure we can all agree on it, right?

Don't know about latin but in Italian inkjet is translated to:

"getto di inchiostro"

Sounds very interesting.

How about "Cjet" print

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "john dean" <deanwork2003@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2005 12:27 PM
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Bill Brandt "carbon prints" Los Angeles


That's a great idea, we could use latin. What is the latin word for inkjet?

I'm sure we can all agree on it, right?



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "dfaprinting" <
dfaprinting@y...> wrote:
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "john dean"
> <deanwork2003@y...> wrote:
> > See, I think they're scaring you away from the word inkjet.
>
> Why don't we all make up some silly word that sounds really
> sophisticated, yet is meaningless and start using that. Maybe
> something in French or Italian so it sounds kind of "artsy".
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
>
> Oh, wait..... that's already been done before. Well still won't hurt,
> let's make up another ;-]





Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as 
they are often being updated.

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If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to 
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same 
page.

Please follow these basic guidelines:
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Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the 
membership without notice.
- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W 
printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from 
the membership.
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Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files section:
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BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT 
YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND 
"MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU 
FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY 
DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, 
GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  "OWNER" AND 
"MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE 
POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY 
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THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER 
MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.

Yahoo! Groups Links

I think someone would shorten it to getto prints. I don't think a NY  
gallery would like that, although I could be wrong :)


On Jul 26, 2005, at 3:48 PM, John Vitollo wrote:

> "john dean"  wrote:
> > That's a great idea, we could use latin. What is the latin word  
> for inkjet?
> > I'm sure we can all agree on it, right?
>
> Don't know about latin but in Italian inkjet is translated to:
>
> "getto di inchiostro"
>
> Sounds very interesting.
>
>
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other  
> resources as they are often being updated.
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you  
> wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by  
> visiting this same page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages  
> to keep them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or  
> flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed  
> from the membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital  
> B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be  
> removed from the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules  
> and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the  
> group Owner and Moderators. See �Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines�  
> in the Files section:
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>
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> NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL,  
> CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO,  
> DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER  
> INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  �OWNER� AND �MODERATORS� OF DIGITAL  
> BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF  
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> THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO  
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>
>
>
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> On Jul 26, 2005, at 3:48 PM, John Vitollo wrote:
> > Don't know about latin but in Italian inkjet is translated to:
> >
> > "getto di inchiostro"

Mark Savoia> wrote:
> I think someone would shorten it to getto prints. I don't think a NY  
> gallery would like that, although I could be wrong :)

I have my posse to watch my back.

Actually the word "getto" in italian is pronounced "jetto"

Yea John but if we altered it to      Giotto  Di Inchiostro  that would give us 
Renaissance connotations. Such as:


 The Giotto's influence on Florentine painting stemmed from his ability to bring 
a sense of three-dimensionality to his works. The generation of painters which 
came after was overwelmingly influenced by this approach to painting.
REFERENCES
Gowing, L. (1987) Paintings in the Louvre. New York, U.S.A.: Stewart, Tabor & 
Chang.
Buy this book from Amazon.com 

Laclotte, M. and Cuzin, J-P. (1993) The Louvre: European Paintings. London: 
Scala Publications Ltd.

Piper, D. (1981). The Dictionary of Painting & Sculpture, Art & Artists, Painters 
& Sculptors, Terms & Techniques. London: Mitchell Beazley Publishers.

Roettgen, S (1996) Italian Frescoes: The Early Renaissance (1400 - 1470). 
New York, U.S.A.: Abbeyville Press.



I don't know I'm still leaning toward Latin.


-

Si
Notice my last name :)


On Jul 26, 2005, at 3:56 PM, John Vitollo wrote:

> > On Jul 26, 2005, at 3:48 PM, John Vitollo wrote:
> > > Don't know about latin but in Italian inkjet is translated to:
> > >
> > > "getto di inchiostro"
>
> Mark Savoia> wrote:
> > I think someone would shorten it to getto prints. I don't think a NY
> > gallery would like that, although I could be wrong :)
>
> I have my posse to watch my back.
>
> Actually the word "getto" in italian is pronounced "jetto"
>
>
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other  
> resources as they are often being updated.
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> 
> That's a great idea, we could use latin. What is the latin word for
> inkjet?
> 

I like the Russian word for "inkjet":  струйный

Try pronouncing that one!

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

<Why don't we all make up some silly word that sounds really sophisticated, 
yet is meaningless and start using that. Maybe something in French or Italian 
so it sounds kind of "artsy".   ... Oh, wait..... that's already been done 
before. Well still won't hurt,  let's make up another ;-]>

Wow, I go away for a year, and you guys are still talking about what to call 
your prints! ;-)

In case anyone missed it, here's the story of "that other artsy" word we all 
know and love:
http://www.dpandi.com/giclee

And while you're at it, see my short report about the recent Arles Photo 
Festival:
http://www.dpandi.com/newsreviews/reports/events/arles05
Some great B&W prints there (like Johh Divola's "dogs chasing my car in the 
desert"; sorry no pix).

Harald

Harald Johnson
author, "Mastering Digital Printing, Second Edition"
author, "Digital Printing Start-Up Guide"
Series Editor, Digital Process & Print Series
Thomson Course Technology PTR, 2005

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "john dean" 
<deanwork2003@y...> wrote:
> That's a great idea, we could use latin. What is the latin word for 
inkjet?
> 
> I'm sure we can all agree on it, right?
> 
> 



Actually, after looking up the words, I kind of like it. Pulled from 
the dictionary at:
http://catholic.archives.nd.edu/cgi-bin/lookdown.pl

atramentum aspergo [black fluid , such as ink or shoemaker's black]& 
[spray]

The grammar may actually be correct too.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, hjswim2@a... 
wrote:

> 
> Wow, I go away for a year, and you guys are still talking about 
what to call 
> your prints! ;-)


Sorry, I couldn't help but to take a poke at that other word, and how 
people are so quick to place it with our more modern process.

My nomination for artsy Italian: put together "jet" and "dot", and you get

"Giotto"

----- Original Message ----- 
From: <hjswim2@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2005 4:37 PM
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Bill Brandt "carbon prints" Los Angeles


<Why don't we all make up some silly word that sounds really sophisticated,
yet is meaningless and start using that. Maybe something in French or
Italian
so it sounds kind of "artsy".   ... Oh, wait..... that's already been done
before. Well still won't hurt,  let's make up another ;-]>

Wow, I go away for a year, and you guys are still talking about what to call
your prints! ;-)

In case anyone missed it, here's the story of "that other artsy" word we all
know and love:
http://www.dpandi.com/giclee

And while you're at it, see my short report about the recent Arles Photo
Festival:
http://www.dpandi.com/newsreviews/reports/events/arles05
Some great B&W prints there (like Johh Divola's "dogs chasing my car in the
desert"; sorry no pix).

Harald

Harald Johnson
author, "Mastering Digital Printing, Second Edition"
author, "Digital Printing Start-Up Guide"
Series Editor, Digital Process & Print Series
Thomson Course Technology PTR, 2005


Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
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It's not often that I find myself able to contribute anything useful
to this forum.  I simply don't do enough printing.

But I can suggest with reasonable authority (my Bachelor's degree was
Classics):

atramento sparso

Doesn't sound as good as the previous suggestion (maybe like you're
skimping on something), but the grammar is correct :-)

Being very much an amateur I'm happy to say that most people I show
prints to don't care about how they're made, or what they're made
from.  They just look at the picture.  Sometimes they're interested
whether they're digital or 'real photos'.  But that's about as far as
it goes.

What I think is great is that I can produce archival prints without
having to worry about whether my fixer was off or my bottle of
selenium toner is too old.  For someone doing irregular darkroom work
 this works out quite expensive.  And there were always too many other
things to worry about.

Anyway, as more people produce great work using this medium I'm sure
acceptance will build.

Good luck

Chris


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "dfaprinting"
<dfaprinting@y...> wrote:

> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "john dean" 
> <deanwork2003@y...> wrote:
> > That's a great idea, we could use latin. What is the latin word for 
> inkjet?
> > 
> > I'm sure we can all agree on it, right?
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, after looking up the words, I kind of like it. Pulled from 
> the dictionary at:
> http://catholic.archives.nd.edu/cgi-bin/lookdown.pl
> 
> atramentum aspergo [black fluid , such as ink or shoemaker's black]& 
> [spray]
> 
> The grammar may actually be correct too.

Oh my! Better yet, make it ghetto prints and really start a new rage.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Mark Savoia 
<mark@c...> wrote:
> I think someone would shorten it to getto prints. I don't think a 
NY  
> gallery would like that, although I could be wrong :)
> 
> 
> On Jul 26, 2005, at 3:48 PM, John Vitollo wrote:
> 
> > "john dean"  wrote:
> > > That's a great idea, we could use latin. What is the latin 
word  
> > for inkjet?
> > > I'm sure we can all agree on it, right?
> >
> > Don't know about latin but in Italian inkjet is translated to:
> >
> > "getto di inchiostro"
> >
> > Sounds very interesting.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other  
> > resources as they are often being updated.
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >
> > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you  
> > wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by  
> > visiting this same page.
> >
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier 
messages  
> > to keep them short.
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> > flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be 
removed  
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digital  
> > B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may 
be  
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rules  
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the  
> > group Owner and Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and 
Guidelines"  
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THE  
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SHALL  
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SPECIAL,  
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TO,  
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DIGITAL  
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Service.

> >
> >
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>Wow, I go away for a year, and you guys are still talking about 
>what to call your prints! 

Has anyone in the current incarnation of this subject read the "What
To Call Them?" article at 

   http://www.cjcom.net/articles/digiprn6.htm


Among other things, it touches on the (now very old and long died
away) "carbon print" controversy:

"The term "Carbon Pigment Print", often used today to describe fine
art black and white inkjet prints, seems to have evolved out of the
controversy that sprang up after some inkjet people used the term
"Carbon Print", and the people working in the old carbon print
processes took offense that their name was being hijacked."

This battle raged for months across numerous forums, and when the dust
finally settled there seemed to be a tacit agreement throughout the
inkjet community that "carbon print" was off limits, but things like
"Carbon Pigment Print" and "Carbon Ink Print" are ok.  I guess history
has to repeat itself.

BTW, the article makes a case for using "Carbon Ink Print", but I did
not invent the term.  It was one of several I saw used during The
Great Carbon Print Debate.

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Well if that ain't  19th Century snobbery I don't know what is. We'll simply change the 
language . to:      Italian - Stampa di Carbonio  or  Portuguese - Impressão De Carbono.

 I'm leaning toward  Portuguese. 

John


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clayton Jones" <cj@c...> wrote:

> >Wow, I go away for a year, and you guys are still talking about 
> >what to call your prints! 
> 
> Has anyone in the current incarnation of this subject read the "What
> To Call Them?" article at 
> 
>    http://www.cjcom.net/articles/digiprn6.htm
> 
> 
> Among other things, it touches on the (now very old and long died
> away) "carbon print" controversy:
> 
> "The term "Carbon Pigment Print", often used today to describe fine
> art black and white inkjet prints, seems to have evolved out of the
> controversy that sprang up after some inkjet people used the term
> "Carbon Print", and the people working in the old carbon print
> processes took offense that their name was being hijacked."
> 
> This battle raged for months across numerous forums, and when the dust
> finally settled there seemed to be a tacit agreement throughout the
> inkjet community that "carbon print" was off limits, but things like
> "Carbon Pigment Print" and "Carbon Ink Print" are ok.  I guess history
> has to repeat itself.
> 
> BTW, the article makes a case for using "Carbon Ink Print", but I did
> not invent the term.  It was one of several I saw used during The
> Great Carbon Print Debate.
> 
> Regards,
> Clayton
> 
> 
> Info on black and white digital printing at    
> http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Clayton

It is always great to have the "voice of history and
reason" reappear at the most needed moments.

Thanks
Woody Spedden

--- Clayton Jones <cj@...> wrote:


---------------------------------
>Wow, I go away for a year, and you guys are still
talking about 
>what to call your prints! 

Has anyone in the current incarnation of this subject
read the "What
To Call Them?" article at 

   http://www.cjcom.net/articles/digiprn6.htm


Among other things, it touches on the (now very old
and long died
away) "carbon print" controversy:

"The term "Carbon Pigment Print", often used today to
describe fine
art black and white inkjet prints, seems to have
evolved out of the
controversy that sprang up after some inkjet people
used the term
"Carbon Print", and the people working in the old
carbon print
processes took offense that their name was being
hijacked."

This battle raged for months across numerous forums,
and when the dust
finally settled there seemed to be a tacit agreement
throughout the
inkjet community that "carbon print" was off limits,
but things like
"Carbon Pigment Print" and "Carbon Ink Print" are ok. 
I guess history
has to repeat itself.

BTW, the article makes a case for using "Carbon Ink
Print", but I did
not invent the term.  It was one of several I saw used
during The
Great Carbon Print Debate.

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm




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---------------------------------

>
> "The term "Carbon Pigment Print", often used today to describe fine
> art black and white inkjet prints, seems to have evolved out of the
> controversy that sprang up after some inkjet people used the term
> "Carbon Print", and the people working in the old carbon print
> processes took offense that their name was being hijacked."
>
> This battle raged for months across numerous forums, and when the dust
> finally settled there seemed to be a tacit agreement throughout the
> inkjet community that "carbon print" was off limits, but things like
> "Carbon Pigment Print" and "Carbon Ink Print" are ok.  I guess history
> has to repeat itself.
>
> BTW, the article makes a case for using "Carbon Ink Print", but I did
> not invent the term.  It was one of several I saw used during The
> Great Carbon Print Debate.
>


The terminology Carbon Print used for the prints in the Bill Brandt show and
by the Brandt Archive has raised the ire of numerous traditional carbon
print/alt process printers - who basically see it as a deceitful use of the
term.

tim a

Timothy Atherton said:

>The terminology Carbon Print used for >the prints in the Bill Brandt show 
>and
>by the Brandt Archive has raised the ire >of numerous traditional carbon
>print/alt process printers - who basically >see it as a deceitful use of 
>the
>term.

Is this by chance the same  handful of ostriches who participate in Tuan's 
large format forum and who object to calling ink jet prints made from 
scanned film "photographs" or does it include some sane people?


tim a



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On Wed, Jul 27, 2005 at 03:16:26PM -0000, dlruckus wrote:
> Oh my! Better yet, make it ghetto prints and really start a new rage.

"Black and white is still too bad."

     -- Public Enemy, "Pollywanacraka", way the hell out of context

> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Mark Savoia 
> <mark@c...> wrote:
> > I think someone would shorten it to getto prints. I don't think a 
> NY  
> > gallery would like that, although I could be wrong :)
> > 
> > 
> > On Jul 26, 2005, at 3:48 PM, John Vitollo wrote:
> > 
> > > "john dean"  wrote:
> > > > That's a great idea, we could use latin. What is the latin 
> word  
> > > for inkjet?
> > > > I'm sure we can all agree on it, right?
> > >
> > > Don't know about latin but in Italian inkjet is translated to:
> > >
> > > "getto di inchiostro"
> > >
> > > Sounds very interesting.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other  
> > > resources as they are often being updated.
> > >
> > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> > >
> > > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you  
> > > wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by  
> > > visiting this same page.
> > >
> > > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier 
> messages  
> > > to keep them short.
> > > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or  
> > > flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be 
> removed  
> > > from the membership without notice.
> > > - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of 
> digital  
> > > B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may 
> be  
> > > removed from the membership.
> > > - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group 
> rules  
> > > and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of 
> the  
> > > group Owner and Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and 
> Guidelines"  
> > > in the Files section:
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> > > NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, 
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> > > CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED 
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-- 
 Ben Rosengart                                          ben@...
       "Young people should be seen and not heard, because they're
        good-looking but not too bright.  We're pretty bright now,
        but we're ugly." -- Grace Slick on the '60s youth movement

Tim,

>The terminology Carbon Print used for the prints in the Bill Brandt
>show and by the Brandt Archive has raised the ire of numerous
>traditional carbon print/alt process printers - who basically see 
>it as a deceitful use of the term.

Sounds like the same war is going to happen all over again.  It's been
about 4 years I guess.    Sigh.


Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Many voices were raised to object at the reuse of a well-established 
term in photography for something completely different - probably almost 
everyone with some knowledge of the history of our medium. Whether or 
not they are sane hardly enters into it, more a matter of being informed.

Regards,

Peter

Peter Marshall
petermarshall@...     +44 (0)1784 456474
31 Budebury Rd, STAINES, Middx, TW18 2AZ, UK
_________________________________________________________________
My London Diary	              http://mylondondiary.co.uk/
London's Industrial Heritage: http://petermarshallphotos.co.uk/
The Buildings of London etc:  http://londonphotographs.co.uk/
and elsewhere......



Brian Ellis wrote:

>Timothy Atherton said:
>
>  
>
>>The terminology Carbon Print used for >the prints in the Bill Brandt show 
>>and
>>by the Brandt Archive has raised the ire >of numerous traditional carbon
>>print/alt process printers - who basically >see it as a deceitful use of 
>>the
>>term.
>>    
>>
>
>Is this by chance the same  handful of ostriches who participate in Tuan's 
>large format forum and who object to calling ink jet prints made from 
>scanned film "photographs" or does it include some sane people?
>
>
>tim a
>
>
>
>Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as 
>they are often being updated.
>
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
>If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to 
>unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same 
>page.
>
>Please follow these basic guidelines:
>- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep 
>them short.
>- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. 
>Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the 
>membership without notice.
>- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W 
>printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from 
>the membership.
>- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and 
>guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and 
>Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files section:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
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>BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT 
>YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND 
>"MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU 
>FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY 
>DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, 
>GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  "OWNER" AND 
>"MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE 
>POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY 
>TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR 
>ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY 
>THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER 
>MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as they are often being updated.
>
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
>If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page.
>
>Please follow these basic guidelines:
>- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
>- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership without notice.
>- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the membership.
>- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and Moderators. See \ufffdGroup Topic, Rules and Guidelines\ufffd in the Files section:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
>
>BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE \ufffdOWNER\ufffd AND \ufffdMODERATORS\ufffd OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  \ufffdOWNER\ufffd AND \ufffdMODERATORS\ufffd OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> 
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> 
>
>
>
>  
>