Digital BW, The Print

Hi all,

I'm about to start creating my first QTR files for Permajet
MonoChrome Pro CIS and Permajet papers (just as soon as I've paid Roy 
my $50)and was wondering if anybody is aware of the MonoChrome Pro
ink formulation. I have a feeling that it's a rebranded ink set,
maybe UT or UT2? if that where the case I suppose I could start by 
using the supplied QTR files as a start point. Hope my hunch is 
correct.

Also could someone explain the significance of the different Dither 
Algorithms that come with QTR (and which I might try first,) you
might have guessed I'm relatively new to all this, and have only 
recently come across QTR, and undoubtedly have got a lot to learn,
but fully intend to nail down the output I desire. By the way I'm 
using a 1290s,

regards, Jamie

Dither is in the eye of the beholder, and dependant on source image and
resolution.
Create an image that you would like to print at a resolution of 360 dpi.
Crop it to a small image, say ¼ page size.  Then print 4 images per page
with different dither and printer resolution.  Note that supplied curves
were created for 1440 printer resolution, when you try 2880 you will have to
move the ink limit slider down to get the same print density.
So, 6 dithers X 2 resolutions = 12 images = 3 sheets.  From there, be your
own judge.  After that, you may want to explore image dependency, say a
portrait with smooth skin tones and a busy landscape with fine details.

Best regards,
John Moody

-----Original Message-----
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Jamie
Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2005 6:33 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Permajet MonoChrome Pro ink formulation

Hi all,

I'm about to start creating my first QTR files for Permajet
MonoChrome Pro CIS and Permajet papers (just as soon as I've paid Roy
my $50)and was wondering if anybody is aware of the MonoChrome Pro
ink formulation. I have a feeling that it's a rebranded ink set,
maybe UT or UT2? if that where the case I suppose I could start by
using the supplied QTR files as a start point. Hope my hunch is
correct.

Also could someone explain the significance of the different Dither
Algorithms that come with QTR (and which I might try first,) you
might have guessed I'm relatively new to all this, and have only
recently come across QTR, and undoubtedly have got a lot to learn,
but fully intend to nail down the output I desire. By the way I'm
using a 1290s,

regards, Jamie





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thanks John, very much appreciated. Portraiture is where I'm headed 
and can hardly wait to get started

regards, Jamie

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "John Moody" 
<moodymz3@y...> wrote:

Dither is in the eye of the beholder, and dependant on source 
image and resolution.Create an image that you would like to print at 
a resolution of 360 dpi. Crop it to a small image, say ¼ page
size. Then print 4 images per page with different dither and printer 
resolution.  Note that supplied curves were created for 1440 printer 
resolution, when you try 2880 you will have to move the ink limit 
slider down to get the same print density. So, 6 dithers X 2 
resolutions = 12 images = 3 sheets.  From there, be your own judge.  
After that, you may want to explore image dependency, say a portrait 
with smooth skin tones and a busy landscape with fine details.

Best regards,
John Moody

-----Original Message-----
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of 
Jamie
Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2005 6:33 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Permajet MonoChrome Pro ink formulation

Hi all,

I'm about to start creating my first QTR files for Permajet
MonoChrome Pro CIS and Permajet papers (just as soon as I've paid 
Roy my $50)and was wondering if anybody is aware of the MonoChrome 
Pro ink formulation. I have a feeling that it's a rebranded ink set,
maybe UT or UT2? if that where the case I suppose I could start by
using the supplied QTR files as a start point. Hope my hunch is
correct.

Also could someone explain the significance of the different Dither
Algorithms that come with QTR (and which I might try first,) you
might have guessed I'm relatively new to all this, and have only
recently come across QTR, and undoubtedly have got a lot to learn,
but fully intend to nail down the output I desire. By the way I'm
using a 1290s,

regards, Jamie

It's very similar to UT2.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jamie
> Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2005 2:33 AM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Digital BW] Permajet MonoChrome Pro ink formulation
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> I'm about to start creating my first QTR files for Permajet
> MonoChrome Pro CIS and Permajet papers (just as soon as I've paid Roy
> my $50)and was wondering if anybody is aware of the MonoChrome Pro
> ink formulation. I have a feeling that it's a rebranded ink set,
> maybe UT or UT2? if that where the case I suppose I could start by
> using the supplied QTR files as a start point. Hope my hunch is
> correct.
> 
> Also could someone explain the significance of the different Dither
> Algorithms that come with QTR (and which I might try first,) you
> might have guessed I'm relatively new to all this, and have only
> recently come across QTR, and undoubtedly have got a lot to learn,
> but fully intend to nail down the output I desire. By the way I'm
> using a 1290s,
> 
> regards, Jamie
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Thanks Paul,

I'll try the UT2 curve files as a starting point; what I really want 
to be printing on is Glossy and semi-gloss paper, so I guess I 
should obtain a Photo Black cartridge to replace the Eboni black 
that I've got installed on my CIS?

regards, Jamie


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> It's very similar to UT2.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com 
> 
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> > [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf 
Of Jamie
> > Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2005 2:33 AM
> > To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [Digital BW] Permajet MonoChrome Pro ink formulation

Hi all,

I'm about to start creating my first QTR files for Permajet
MonoChrome Pro CIS and Permajet papers (just as soon as I've paid 
Roy my $50)and was wondering if anybody is aware of the MonoChrome 
Pro ink formulation. I have a feeling that it's a rebranded ink set, 
maybe UT or UT2? if that where the case I suppose I could start by 
using the supplied QTR files as a start point. Hope my hunch is 
correct.

Also could someone explain the significance of the different Dither 
Algorithms that come with QTR (and which I might try first,) you 
might have guessed I'm relatively new to all this, and have only 
recently come across QTR, and undoubtedly have got a lot to learn, 
but fully intend to nail down the output I desire. By the way I'm 
using a 1290s,

> > regards, Jamie

Jamie,

> 
> I'll try the UT2 curve files as a starting point; what I really want
> to be printing on is Glossy and semi-gloss paper, so I guess I
> should obtain a Photo Black cartridge to replace the Eboni black
> that I've got installed on my CIS?

You can print a good black with the UT2 and Eboni installed.  The curves
just use the 2 dark grays to generate the black.  So, if you have any
interest in printing on matte paper, I'd just leave the Eboni installed as
is.

If you have no interest in matte paper, then I'd put MIS PKN (neutral photo
black) in the K position.  It gets a better dmax than the standard PK, and
it also avoids the warm cross-over that occurs if pure carbon is used as a
black ink.

On advantage to the PKN is that you'd be able to print from grayscale files
using the sliders and no curves.  If you don't want sepia and like neutral
to cool glossy prints, you can also remove the sepia toner in the yellow
spot and replace it with a carbon ink -- the UT2 LM, UT1 Y, or even the FS-Y
(or FSN-y for cooler prints).  Which way to go depends on how the shadow
densities and tones look to you.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

original message from Jamie Creed:


I'll try the UT2 curve files as a starting point; what I really want 
to be printing on is Glossy and semi-gloss paper, so I guess I
should obtain a Photo Black cartridge to replace the Eboni black
that I've got installed on my CIS?

-------------------------------------------------------------------

You can print a good black with the UT2 and Eboni installed. The 
curves just use the 2 dark grays to generate the black. So, if you 
have any interest in printing on matte paper, I'd just leave the 
Eboni installed as is.

If you have no interest in matte paper, then I'd put MIS PKN 
(neutral photo black) in the K position. It gets a better dmax than 
the standard PK, and it also avoids the warm cross-over that occurs 
if pure carbon is used as a black ink.

On advantage to the PKN is that you'd be able to print from 
grayscale files using the sliders and no curves. If you don't want 
sepia and like neutral to cool glossy prints, you can also remove 
the sepia toner in the yellow spot and replace it with a carbon ink -
- the UT2 LM, UT1 Y, or even the FS-Y (or FSN-y for cooler prints). 
Which way to go depends on how the shadow densities and tones look 
to you.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Paul,

thank you for taking the time to reply, your expertise and undying 
devotion to "the black and white print"

regards, Jamie

On Tue, Aug 30, 2005 at 01:28:01PM -0700, Paul Roark wrote:
> 
> If you have no interest in matte paper, then I'd put MIS PKN (neutral photo
> black) in the K position.  It gets a better dmax than the standard PK, and
> it also avoids the warm cross-over that occurs if pure carbon is used as a
> black ink.

Is this good advice for a 1280/UT2 user too?

I have Eboni loaded, but I find I like the look of Ilford Smooth
Pearl a lot better than that of EEM.  (I haven't opened my package
of HPR yet, because I'm told it looks like EEM.)  So am I better off
using PK -- or PKN?  I notice PKN isn't listed here:
<http://www.inksupply.com/ut2-1280.cfm#ubi>

Will I get better prints (in terms of looks or longevity) on ISP
if I replace sepia with GLOP?

If I do go for PKN and/or GLOP, will I need to make my own curves?

How are neutral 1280/UT2 prints on ISP likely to change over time?
I'm not asking for hard quantitative data, just something brief I can
say to someone interested in buying a print.

Thanks in advance.

-- 
 Ben Rosengart                                          ben@...
       "Young people should be seen and not heard, because they're
        good-looking but not too bright.  We're pretty bright now,
        but we're ugly." -- Grace Slick on the '60s youth movement

Ben,

> On Tue, Aug 30, 2005 at 01:28:01PM -0700, Paul Roark wrote:
> >
> > If you have no interest in matte paper, then I'd put MIS PKN 
> > (neutral photo black) in the K position.  
> > It gets a better dmax than the standard PK, and
> > it also avoids the warm cross-over that occurs if pure carbon 
> > is used as a black ink.
> 


> Is this good advice for a 1280/UT2 user too?

Yes.

Frankly, if I was printing only glossy paper I'd put in PKN as well as
replace the sepia with UT2-LM (light carbon).  This will give a better tone
with the Epson driver and sliders.

MIS sells PKN from this URL:  http://www.inksupply.com/roarkslab.cfm

> Will I get better prints (in terms of looks or longevity) on ISP
> if I replace sepia with GLOP?

I'd avoid Glop.  The new MIS inks don't need it, and it may not be in the
printer's best interest. 

> If I do go for PKN and/or GLOP, will I need to make my own curves?

I'd use the Epson driver with sliders first and see how it goes.  One goal
here is go avoid the radical curves altogether.

> How are neutral 1280/UT2 prints on ISP likely to change over time?

I believe Ilford rates its glossy papers at 30 years.  They are acidic.

In short, the inks will last much longer than the paper, which I assume will
yellow.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

On Tue, Aug 30, 2005 at 03:27:36PM -0700, Paul Roark wrote:
> 
> Frankly, if I was printing only glossy paper I'd put in PKN as well as
> replace the sepia with UT2-LM (light carbon).  This will give a better tone
> with the Epson driver and sliders.

Ok, I will give that a try.  I ordered the spongeless kit the other
day -- I'd been using cartridges til now.  Hopefully I can get MIS to
change my order if they haven't shipped it yet.

If you were printing matte, what, if anything, would you use to
replace sepia?

> > How are neutral 1280/UT2 prints on ISP likely to change over time?
> 
> I believe Ilford rates its glossy papers at 30 years.  They are acidic.

Are matte papers the only ones from any mfg with good archival qualities?

> In short, the inks will last much longer than the paper, which I assume will
> yellow.

I know that carbon-only is considered better for archival purposes
than anything else.  Paper aside for the moment, what do I lose by
printing neutral?  (If the cooling toners break down over time, then
I guess I end up with a carbon-only print after some number of years,
right?  That's not a bad trade-off.)

-- 
 Ben Rosengart                                          ben@...
       "Young people should be seen and not heard, because they're
        good-looking but not too bright.  We're pretty bright now,
        but we're ugly." -- Grace Slick on the '60s youth movement

Looking at your website, I came across the UT-FSN option -- how does
that differ from what we're discussing, which is, at this point, UT2
minus sepia plus UT2-LM, with PKN?  (Am I right in thinking that
UT-FSN doesn't come with a black, and could also be used with PKN?)

-- 
 Ben Rosengart                                          ben@...
       "Young people should be seen and not heard, because they're
        good-looking but not too bright.  We're pretty bright now,
        but we're ugly." -- Grace Slick on the '60s youth movement

Ben,

> 
> On Tue, Aug 30, 2005 at 03:27:36PM -0700, Paul Roark wrote:
> >
> > Frankly, if I was printing only glossy paper I'd put in PKN as well as
> > replace the sepia with UT2-LM (light carbon).  This will give a better
> tone
> > with the Epson driver and sliders.
> 
> Ok, I will give that a try.  I ordered the spongeless kit the other
> day -- I'd been using cartridges til now.  Hopefully I can get MIS to
> change my order if they haven't shipped it yet.
> 
> If you were printing matte, what, if anything, would you use to
> replace sepia?


For me the only issue is whether to use the light carbon from the UT2 (or
UT7) inkset, or go even lighter with the UT1-Y or the UT-FS-2, which also
has a bit of toner in it.  Whether matte or glossy paper is used would not
affect my approach.  

The lighter inks (UT1-Y or UT-FS-Y) allow one to write curves that give more
dotless highlights (which only some people think is an issue).  

If the Epson sliders are used instead of curves, there would not be too much
difference in the highlights.  In this case, the shadow separation would be
the more important factor.  

In effect, which ink one puts I the Y position is a method by which one can
fine-tune the inkset for a particular paper and look.  With individual,
refillable carts (like the UT7 and all the newer Epson printers) its easy
just to try and see what you like.  With a 1280-90, it's a bit more
expensive and work.  If the highlight dots are not a problem for you, then
the UT2-LM is what I'd recommend starting with in the Y position.


> 
> > > How are neutral 1280/UT2 prints on ISP likely to change over time?
> >
> > I believe Ilford rates its glossy papers at 30 years.  They are acidic.
> 
> Are matte papers the only ones from any mfg with good archival qualities?

No, Epson Premium papers (Premium Glossy, Premium Semigloss, and Premium
Semimatte) are all good papers that get good ratings from Wilhelm.
Additionally, Costco Kirkland Glossy inkjet paper is the cheapest and one of
the best papers there is in my view.  Like the Epson premium papers, it has
a buffered interior paper.  That seems to be the big difference between the
archival and not archival papers.  When I want a gloss paper, I use Kirkland
glossy for casual prints and 8 x 10s, and Epson Premium Semimatte in rolls
when I want large display prints.  I'd have a slight preference for Epson
Semigloss due to its lack of optical brighteners if I could get it in rolls,
but I can't. 

How long these glossy prints will last in the real world is still an
unknown.  In light of matte paper's susceptibility to physical damage, I
would not be surprised if a sprayed (PremierArt Print Shield) glossy print
was the best looking after 50 years.


> I know that carbon-only is considered better for archival purposes
> than anything else.  Paper aside for the moment, what do I lose by
> printing neutral? 

Very little.  The weak magenta is out of the mix in now (as of late 2004),
and there is no yellow in the mix.  The cyan is very tough, and the blue I
now also use appears to be similar to the cyan -- quite tough.  Initial fade
testing has shown only a very small advantage to pure carbon at this point
and with the current UT inksets.

> (If the cooling toners break down over time, then
> I guess I end up with a carbon-only print after some number of years,
> right?  That's not a bad trade-off.)

Exactly.

I have tended to use a medium warm or "warm neutral" on cotton paper for my
most important prints.  But, being matte, they are very vulnerable to
abrasion.  I spray Lascaux on some of them if I think there is a risk of
something touching the surface.  


> Looking at your website, I came across the UT-FSN option -- how does
> that differ from what we're discussing, which is, at this point, UT2
> minus sepia plus UT2-LM, with PKN?  (Am I right in thinking that
> UT-FSN doesn't come with a black, and could also be used with PKN?)

UT-FSN is a monotone inkset.  These are simpler for people to write curves
for, but one cannot profile papers as to tone (hue).  So, I recommend them
where one is having trouble with curves (or where I don't intend to make
curves).  On the other hand, I don't use them much.  I like to be able to
print on different papers with tones that I want.  I'm interested in more,
more consistent, and easier control, not less.


Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

On Tue, Aug 30, 2005 at 04:50:14PM -0700, Paul Roark wrote:
> Ben,
> 
> If the highlight dots are not a problem for you, then
> the UT2-LM is what I'd recommend starting with in the Y position.

That's what I'll do, then.

> > Are matte papers the only ones from any mfg with good archival qualities?
> 
> No, Epson Premium papers (Premium Glossy, Premium Semigloss, and Premium
> Semimatte) are all good papers that get good ratings from Wilhelm.
> Additionally, Costco Kirkland Glossy inkjet paper is the cheapest and one of
> the best papers there is in my view.

This is good news.

I can't experiment with these until I replace Eboni with a photo
black, right?

> How long these glossy prints will last in the real world is still an
> unknown.  In light of matte paper's susceptibility to physical damage, I
> would not be surprised if a sprayed (PremierArt Print Shield) glossy print
> was the best looking after 50 years.

Oy, spraying.  I was hoping to avoid that particular can of worms.  (I
live in a small apartment, and my lungs are not so great to begin with.)

-- 
 Ben Rosengart                                          ben@...
       "Young people should be seen and not heard, because they're
        good-looking but not too bright.  We're pretty bright now,
        but we're ugly." -- Grace Slick on the '60s youth movement

Ben,

> > ... Epson Premium papers (Premium Glossy, Premium Semigloss, and Premium
> > Semimatte) are all good papers that get good ratings from Wilhelm.
> > Additionally, Costco Kirkland Glossy inkjet paper is the cheapest 
> > and one of the best papers there is in my view.
> 


> I can't experiment with these until I replace Eboni with a photo
> black, right?

You can print on glossy papers with UT2 or the Permajet version by using the
curves that cut out the Eboni and print the black with the 2 dark grays.  

> 
> Oy, spraying.  I was hoping to avoid that particular can of worms. 

With the new MIS base, it appears spraying will no longer be needed for
bronzing.  I use Kirkland glossy for brochures that get handled, and the
finger prints have not been a problem.  I think spraying is not necessary at
all -- at least with the new inks.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Paul,
Do you think the UT7 and FS-Y I received yesterday has the new base?
Obviously I could just make a print and see, but the empty cart set came
with a bad chip, so I'm patiently waiting for the replacement to show up.

Best regards,
John Moody

-----Original Message-----
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Paul Roark
Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 10:39 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Digital BW] 1280 UT2 without sepia; plus, some archival
questions


With the new MIS base, it appears spraying will no longer be needed for
bronzing.  I use Kirkland glossy for brochures that get handled, and the
finger prints have not been a problem.  I think spraying is not necessary at
all -- at least with the new inks.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Tue, Aug 30, 2005 at 06:46:26PM -0400, Ben Rosengart wrote:
> On Tue, Aug 30, 2005 at 03:27:36PM -0700, Paul Roark wrote:
> > 
> > Frankly, if I was printing only glossy paper I'd put in PKN as well as
> > replace the sepia with UT2-LM (light carbon).  This will give a better tone
> > with the Epson driver and sliders.
> 
> Ok, I will give that a try.

It's all ordered.  I do have a spot of confusion on this.  This means
I'll have UT2-LM in two positions?  The LM position, and ... ?  I have
never been clear on exactly which inks are in what position on the 1280.

Thanks so much for all your help.

-- 
 Ben Rosengart                                          ben@...
       "Young people should be seen and not heard, because they're
        good-looking but not too bright.  We're pretty bright now,
        but we're ugly." -- Grace Slick on the '60s youth movement

On Wed, Aug 31, 2005 at 07:38:52AM -0700, Paul Roark wrote:
> Ben,
> 
> With the new MIS base, it appears spraying will no longer be needed for
> bronzing.

They're phasing this in without changing the part names?  How will I
know if I have it?

-- 
 Ben Rosengart                                          ben@...
       "Young people should be seen and not heard, because they're
        good-looking but not too bright.  We're pretty bright now,
        but we're ugly." -- Grace Slick on the '60s youth movement

John,

> Do you think the UT7 and FS-Y I received yesterday has the new base?

If you just received it, I'd hope it is the new base.  I still have not
received any but samples of the new inks myself, however.  MIS says they no
longer have any of the old base inks on the shelf.


Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

> On Tue, Aug 30, 2005 at 06:46:26PM -0400, Ben Rosengart wrote:
> > On Tue, Aug 30, 2005 at 03:27:36PM -0700, Paul Roark wrote:
> > >
> > > Frankly, if I was printing only glossy paper I'd put in PKN as well as
> > > replace the sepia with UT2-LM (light carbon).  This will give a better
> > > tone with the Epson driver and sliders.
> >
> > Ok, I will give that a try.
> 
> ...  This means
> I'll have UT2-LM in two positions?  The LM position, and ... ?

Yes, the UT2-LM, light carbon, will be in the LM and Y positions.

>  I have
> never been clear on exactly which inks are in what position on the 1280.


See http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/UT2-Readme.htm  as well as the Jpegs at
http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/Purge6-2-UT2-cc.jpg and
http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/Purge6-2-UT2-NCA.jpg .


>> With the new MIS base, it appears spraying will no longer be needed 
>> for bronzing.

> They're phasing this in without changing the part names?

Probably.

> How will I know if I have it?

If you see no bronzing, you have the new ink.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

That's interesting news.

Having just bought a set of 4 oz bottles a few months ago, are my 4 oz
bottles of UT7, currently about 1/2 full, now obsolete? 

Does the new formulation affect any curves (QTR or Paul's)?
Can I mix the old and new inks in the same image?
Can I mix the old and new inks in the same cart?

I checked the MIS web site and couldn't find information on the new
formulation.

This situation seems to be the complete opposite of the usual marketing
vaporware. I guess liquidware is different.

Tom Moore

> -----Original Message-----
> From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Paul
> Roark
> Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 12:15 PM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [Digital BW] 1280 UT2 without sepia; plus, some archival
> questions
> 
> John,
> 
> > Do you think the UT7 and FS-Y I received yesterday has the new base?
> 
> If you just received it, I'd hope it is the new base.  I still have not
> received any but samples of the new inks myself, however.  MIS says they
> no
> longer have any of the old base inks on the shelf.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> 
> Ben,
> 
> > On Tue, Aug 30, 2005 at 01:28:01PM -0700, Paul Roark wrote:
> > >
---snip---

> > Will I get better prints (in terms of looks or longevity) on ISP
> > if I replace sepia with GLOP?
> 
> I'd avoid Glop.  The new MIS inks don't need it, and it may not be 
in the printer's best interest. 
> 
---snip---
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com

Hi Paul,

I was curious about your comment on Glop not being "... in the 
printer's best interest". Could you share your thoughts on that?

Thanks!
Richard

> 
> I was curious about your comment on Glop not being "... in the
> printer's best interest". Could you share your thoughts on that?
> 

It's very sticky stuff.  Get a drop on your fingers, rub your fingers
together, and feel how it dries.  I notice it in the syringes that I use.  I
think that glop on the parking pad is going to need more rinsing and
cleaning than usual.  I suspect especially those who do not use the printer
regularly will find clogging more of a problem if they use this third party
glop. 

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

On Tue, Aug 30, 2005 at 04:50:14PM -0700, Paul Roark wrote:
> 
> No, Epson Premium papers (Premium Glossy, Premium Semigloss, and Premium
> Semimatte) are all good papers that get good ratings from Wilhelm.

What about Epson Premium Luster?  They didn't have Semimatte at my
local store (Adorama), but they had Luster.  Could these be the same
thing in different markets or something weird like that?

-- 
 Ben Rosengart                                          ben@...
       "Young people should be seen and not heard, because they're
        good-looking but not too bright.  We're pretty bright now,
        but we're ugly." -- Grace Slick on the '60s youth movement

Wilhelm rates Premium Luster at ">200" years of dark storage.  That is what
most of the rag papers have.

Luster has more of a texture than Semigloss or Semimatte.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ben
> Rosengart
> Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 10:14 AM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] 1280 UT2 without sepia; plus, some archival
> questions
> 
> On Tue, Aug 30, 2005 at 04:50:14PM -0700, Paul Roark wrote:
> >
> > No, Epson Premium papers (Premium Glossy, Premium Semigloss, and Premium
> > Semimatte) are all good papers that get good ratings from Wilhelm.
> 
> What about Epson Premium Luster?  They didn't have Semimatte at my
> local store (Adorama), but they had Luster.  Could these be the same
> thing in different markets or something weird like that?
> 
> --
>  Ben Rosengart                                          ben@...
>        "Young people should be seen and not heard, because they're
>         good-looking but not too bright.  We're pretty bright now,
>         but we're ugly." -- Grace Slick on the '60s youth movement
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
> they are often being updated.
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
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> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
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> 
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE OWNER AND
> MODERATORS OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO
> YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR
> EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF
> PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE
> OWNER AND MODERATORS OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN
> ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE
> OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii)
> UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii)
> STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE
> PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
> 
>

On Tue, Aug 30, 2005 at 06:46:26PM -0400, Ben Rosengart wrote:
> On Tue, Aug 30, 2005 at 03:27:36PM -0700, Paul Roark wrote:
> > 
> > Frankly, if I was printing only glossy paper I'd put in PKN as well as
> > replace the sepia with UT2-LM (light carbon).  This will give a better tone
> > with the Epson driver and sliders.
> 
> Ok, I will give that a try.

And I have.  First time filling cartridges.  Good messy fun.  Here's
what I'm doing:

  Ilford Smooth Pearl
  neutral tone

  now: PKN, UT2-LM replacing sepia, sliders
  before: Eboni (not used, I think), stock UT2 set, curves

My first print under the new regime came out with blocked up shadows,
and far too cool.  I'm surprised at the temperature difference, but
maybe it's because the slider settings recommended at
<http://www.inksupply.com/ut2comments.cfm> are intended for use
with PK, and I'm using PKN.  Advice on how to fix these problems
would be greatly appreciated.

-- 
 Ben Rosengart                                          ben@...
       "Young people should be seen and not heard, because they're
        good-looking but not too bright.  We're pretty bright now,
        but we're ugly." -- Grace Slick on the '60s youth movement

Ben,

Since the Eboni and sepia were replaced, and neither are used by the glossy
neutral curves, the system should still be able to print with the curve and
look exactly like it did before.

My UT2 Readme file is at http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/UT2-Readme.htm.

For Ilford Galerie Smooth Pearl & Glossy, I recommend these settings: Media
type: "Photo Quality Ink Jet paper;" Sliders: For neutral: C +5, M -5; for
warm: C -15, M +10, Y +25, Contrast -5 might help open up shadows.

Be sure you're using "Color Controls" checked; Mode - Vivid.

PKN should not affect the image in the midtone at all.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ben
> Rosengart
> Sent: Monday, September 05, 2005 4:20 PM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] 1280 UT2 without sepia; plus, some archival
> questions
> 
> On Tue, Aug 30, 2005 at 06:46:26PM -0400, Ben Rosengart wrote:
> > On Tue, Aug 30, 2005 at 03:27:36PM -0700, Paul Roark wrote:
> > >
> > > Frankly, if I was printing only glossy paper I'd put in PKN as well as
> > > replace the sepia with UT2-LM (light carbon).  This will give a better
> tone
> > > with the Epson driver and sliders.
> >
> > Ok, I will give that a try.
> 
> And I have.  First time filling cartridges.  Good messy fun.  Here's
> what I'm doing:
> 
>   Ilford Smooth Pearl
>   neutral tone
> 
>   now: PKN, UT2-LM replacing sepia, sliders
>   before: Eboni (not used, I think), stock UT2 set, curves
> 
> My first print under the new regime came out with blocked up shadows,
> and far too cool.  I'm surprised at the temperature difference, but
> maybe it's because the slider settings recommended at
> <http://www.inksupply.com/ut2comments.cfm> are intended for use
> with PK, and I'm using PKN.  Advice on how to fix these problems
> would be greatly appreciated.
> 
> --
>  Ben Rosengart                                          ben@...
>        "Young people should be seen and not heard, because they're
>         good-looking but not too bright.  We're pretty bright now,
>         but we're ugly." -- Grace Slick on the '60s youth movement
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
> they are often being updated.
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
> page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
> Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
> membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
> printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from
> the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner
> and Moderators. See Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines in the Files
> section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> 
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE OWNER AND
> MODERATORS OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO
> YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR
> EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF
> PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE
> OWNER AND MODERATORS OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN
> ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE
> OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii)
> UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii)
> STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE
> PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
> 
>

On Mon, Sep 05, 2005 at 11:16:42PM -0700, Paul Roark wrote:
> 
> Since the Eboni and sepia were replaced, and neither are used by the glossy
> neutral curves, the system should still be able to print with the curve and
> look exactly like it did before.

I haven't tried that yet.  I agree that it should look the same if I
use the Eboni glossy neutral curve, but shouldn't I be using the one
for photo black now that I have PKN loaded?

> For Ilford Galerie Smooth Pearl & Glossy, I recommend these settings: Media
> type: "Photo Quality Ink Jet paper;" Sliders: For neutral: C +5, M -5;

Yup, this is what I did.  Any thoughts on why things came out so
much colder than with the curve?  Per MIS's instructions, I loaded
the ink in the order C, c, M, m, Y (well, m) (with the cart oriented
as if I were about to load it into the printer).  That is correct,
right?

> for
> warm: C -15, M +10, Y +25, Contrast -5 might help open up shadows.

Does that contrast advice apply to warm and neutral both?

> Be sure you're using "Color Controls" checked; Mode - Vivid.

Yup.

-- 
 Ben Rosengart                                          ben@...
       "Young people should be seen and not heard, because they're
        good-looking but not too bright.  We're pretty bright now,
        but we're ugly." -- Grace Slick on the '60s youth movement

Note that I also have curves for a number of glossy papers when Photo Black
is loaded.  See the bottom section of
http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/UT2-curves.html .  The neutral one does not
take advantage of the second LM in the Y position.

Where you have a second LM in the Y spot, you might also consider getting
the ramp reasonably close with sliders (driver set to Color Controls) and
then using a monotone curve for the final linearization.  This is the
approach I've started to use for the C86 when I'm using it to work up images
for the larger printers.  If you can get the tone you like with the sliders
and the contrast reasonably close, the use of a monotone curve is something
many find well within what they can do.  So, it gets you closer to being in
full control of your inkset.  See
http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/Monotone_Curves.htm for a tutorial on
adjusting monotone curves.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Paul
> Roark
> Sent: Monday, September 05, 2005 10:17 PM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [Digital BW] 1280 UT2 without sepia; plus, some archival
> questions
> 
> Ben,
> 
> Since the Eboni and sepia were replaced, and neither are used by the
> glossy
> neutral curves, the system should still be able to print with the curve
> and
> look exactly like it did before.
> 
> My UT2 Readme file is at http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/UT2-Readme.htm.
> 
> For Ilford Galerie Smooth Pearl & Glossy, I recommend these settings:
> Media
> type: "Photo Quality Ink Jet paper;" Sliders: For neutral: C +5, M -5; for
> warm: C -15, M +10, Y +25, Contrast -5 might help open up shadows.
> 
> Be sure you're using "Color Controls" checked; Mode - Vivid.
> 
> PKN should not affect the image in the midtone at all.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
> 
> 
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> > [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ben
> > Rosengart
> > Sent: Monday, September 05, 2005 4:20 PM
> > To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] 1280 UT2 without sepia; plus, some archival
> > questions
> >
> > On Tue, Aug 30, 2005 at 06:46:26PM -0400, Ben Rosengart wrote:
> > > On Tue, Aug 30, 2005 at 03:27:36PM -0700, Paul Roark wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Frankly, if I was printing only glossy paper I'd put in PKN as well
> as
> > > > replace the sepia with UT2-LM (light carbon).  This will give a
> better
> > tone
> > > > with the Epson driver and sliders.
> > >
> > > Ok, I will give that a try.
> >
> > And I have.  First time filling cartridges.  Good messy fun.  Here's
> > what I'm doing:
> >
> >   Ilford Smooth Pearl
> >   neutral tone
> >
> >   now: PKN, UT2-LM replacing sepia, sliders
> >   before: Eboni (not used, I think), stock UT2 set, curves
> >
> > My first print under the new regime came out with blocked up shadows,
> > and far too cool.  I'm surprised at the temperature difference, but
> > maybe it's because the slider settings recommended at
> > <http://www.inksupply.com/ut2comments.cfm> are intended for use
> > with PK, and I'm using PKN.  Advice on how to fix these problems
> > would be greatly appreciated.
> >
> > --
> >  Ben Rosengart
> ben@...
> >        "Young people should be seen and not heard, because they're
> >         good-looking but not too bright.  We're pretty bright now,
> >         but we're ugly." -- Grace Slick on the '60s youth movement
> >
> >
> >
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources
> as
> > they are often being updated.
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >
> > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
> > unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this
> same
> > page.
> >
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to
> keep
> > them short.
> > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
> > Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
> > membership without notice.
> > - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
> > printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed
> from
> > the membership.
> > - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
> > guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner
> > and Moderators. See Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines in the Files
> > section:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> >
> > BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> > YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE OWNER AND
> > MODERATORS OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO
> > YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR
> > EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF
> > PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE
> > OWNER AND MODERATORS OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN
> > ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE
> > OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii)
> > UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA;
> (iii)
> > STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> > YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE
> > PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
> they are often being updated.
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
> page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
> Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
> membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
> printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from
> the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner
> and Moderators. See Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines in the Files
> section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> 
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE OWNER AND
> MODERATORS OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO
> YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR
> EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF
> PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE
> OWNER AND MODERATORS OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN
> ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE
> OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii)
> UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii)
> STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE
> PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
> 
>

On Mon, Sep 05, 2005 at 08:19:53PM -0400, Ben Rosengart wrote:

>   Ilford Smooth Pearl
>   neutral tone
> 
>   now: PKN, UT2-LM replacing sepia, sliders
>   before: Eboni (not used, I think), stock UT2 set, curves
> 
> My first print under the new regime came out with blocked up shadows,
> and far too cool.

I didn't convert my RGB file to grayscale before printing.  You
wrote that that was necessary at
<http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/Monotone_Curves.htm>.  Perhaps that
was the problem.  I will report back when I've had a chance to test
this hypothesis.

-- 
 Ben Rosengart                                          ben@...
       "Young people should be seen and not heard, because they're
        good-looking but not too bright.  We're pretty bright now,
        but we're ugly." -- Grace Slick on the '60s youth movement

On Tue, Sep 06, 2005 at 07:40:27AM -0700, Paul Roark wrote:
> Note that I also have curves for a number of glossy papers when Photo Black
> is loaded.  See the bottom section of
> http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/UT2-curves.html .  The neutral one does not
> take advantage of the second LM in the Y position.

Naturally.  And these curves work equally well for PKN as for PK?

> Where you have a second LM in the Y spot, you might also consider getting
> the ramp reasonably close with sliders (driver set to Color Controls) and
> then using a monotone curve for the final linearization.  This is the
> approach I've started to use for the C86 when I'm using it to work up images
> for the larger printers.  If you can get the tone you like with the sliders
> and the contrast reasonably close, the use of a monotone curve is something
> many find well within what they can do. 

This sounds like the sort of finicky business that I prefer to leave
to others wherever possible.  I don't have a densitometer, so I
could never be sure whether I had it right or not.

-- 
 Ben Rosengart                                          ben@...
       "Young people should be seen and not heard, because they're
        good-looking but not too bright.  We're pretty bright now,
        but we're ugly." -- Grace Slick on the '60s youth movement

Ben,

I'm not sure how the PK curve will work with PKN.  There may not be much
difference except in the very darkest shadows -- and the dmax will be more.

Let me know how they look.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ben
> Rosengart
> Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2005 11:47 AM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] 1280 UT2 without sepia; plus, some archival
> questions
> 
> On Tue, Sep 06, 2005 at 07:40:27AM -0700, Paul Roark wrote:
> > Note that I also have curves for a number of glossy papers when Photo
> Black
> > is loaded.  See the bottom section of
> > http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/UT2-curves.html .  The neutral one does
> not
> > take advantage of the second LM in the Y position.
> 
> Naturally.  And these curves work equally well for PKN as for PK?
> 
> > Where you have a second LM in the Y spot, you might also consider
> getting
> > the ramp reasonably close with sliders (driver set to Color Controls)
> and
> > then using a monotone curve for the final linearization.  This is the
> > approach I've started to use for the C86 when I'm using it to work up
> images
> > for the larger printers.  If you can get the tone you like with the
> sliders
> > and the contrast reasonably close, the use of a monotone curve is
> something
> > many find well within what they can do.
> 
> This sounds like the sort of finicky business that I prefer to leave
> to others wherever possible.  I don't have a densitometer, so I
> could never be sure whether I had it right or not.
> 
> --
>  Ben Rosengart                                          ben@...
>        "Young people should be seen and not heard, because they're
>         good-looking but not too bright.  We're pretty bright now,
>         but we're ugly." -- Grace Slick on the '60s youth movement
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
> they are often being updated.
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
> page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
> Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
> membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
> printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from
> the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner
> and Moderators. See Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines in the Files
> section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> 
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE OWNER AND
> MODERATORS OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO
> YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR
> EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF
> PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE
> OWNER AND MODERATORS OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN
> ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE
> OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii)
> UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii)
> STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE
> PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>

On Tue, Sep 06, 2005 at 12:52:14PM -0700, Paul Roark wrote:
> 
> I'm not sure how the PK curve will work with PKN.  There may not be much
> difference except in the very darkest shadows -- and the dmax will be more.
> 
> Let me know how they look.

I'll have to compare against a print made with no K ink at all, so my
evaluation won't necessarily answer my above question -- but I'll be
happy to report back, regardless.

> > On Tue, Sep 06, 2005 at 07:40:27AM -0700, Paul Roark wrote:
> > > Note that I also have curves for a number of glossy papers when Photo
> > Black
> > > is loaded.  See the bottom section of
> > > http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/UT2-curves.html .  The neutral one does
> > not
> > > take advantage of the second LM in the Y position.
> > 
> > Naturally.  And these curves work equally well for PKN as for PK?
> > 
> > > Where you have a second LM in the Y spot, you might also consider
> > getting
> > > the ramp reasonably close with sliders (driver set to Color Controls)
> > and
> > > then using a monotone curve for the final linearization.  This is the
> > > approach I've started to use for the C86 when I'm using it to work up
> > images
> > > for the larger printers.  If you can get the tone you like with the
> > sliders
> > > and the contrast reasonably close, the use of a monotone curve is
> > something
> > > many find well within what they can do.
> > 
> > This sounds like the sort of finicky business that I prefer to leave
> > to others wherever possible.  I don't have a densitometer, so I
> > could never be sure whether I had it right or not.

-- 
 Ben Rosengart                                          ben@...
       "Young people should be seen and not heard, because they're
        good-looking but not too bright.  We're pretty bright now,
        but we're ugly." -- Grace Slick on the '60s youth movement

On Tue, Sep 06, 2005 at 12:52:14PM -0700, Paul Roark wrote:
> Ben,
> 
> I'm not sure how the PK curve will work with PKN.  There may not be much
> difference except in the very darkest shadows -- and the dmax will be more.

D'you think it's worthwhile trying out a BO approach with PKN, or is
BO more of a matte thing?

-- 
 Ben Rosengart                                          ben@...
       "Young people should be seen and not heard, because they're
        good-looking but not too bright.  We're pretty bright now,
        but we're ugly." -- Grace Slick on the '60s youth movement

Some really like BO with PKN.  Give it a try.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ben
> Rosengart
> Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2005 2:42 PM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] 1280 UT2 without sepia; plus, some archival
> questions
> 
> On Tue, Sep 06, 2005 at 12:52:14PM -0700, Paul Roark wrote:
> > Ben,
> >
> > I'm not sure how the PK curve will work with PKN.  There may not be much
> > difference except in the very darkest shadows -- and the dmax will be
> more.
> 
> D'you think it's worthwhile trying out a BO approach with PKN, or is
> BO more of a matte thing?
> 
> --
>  Ben Rosengart                                          ben@...
>        "Young people should be seen and not heard, because they're
>         good-looking but not too bright.  We're pretty bright now,
>         but we're ugly." -- Grace Slick on the '60s youth movement
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
> they are often being updated.
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
> page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
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> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
> Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
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> printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from
> the membership.
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> section:
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> 
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE OWNER AND
> MODERATORS OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO
> YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR
> EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF
> PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE
> OWNER AND MODERATORS OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN
> ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE
> OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii)
> UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii)
> STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE
> PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
> 
>

On Tue, Sep 06, 2005 at 12:52:14PM -0700, Paul Roark wrote:
> Ben,
> 
> I'm not sure how the PK curve will work with PKN.  There may not be much
> difference except in the very darkest shadows -- and the dmax will be more.
> 
> Let me know how they look.

They look just fine.  Not much difference between these and prints
made with the Eboni curves, at least with neutral toning.  The
"carbon" curve looks good too, though I haven't compared it with the
equivalent Eboni curve.  I would've expected odd color in the carbon
curve, since the black is cool, but on casual inspection this was not
apparent.

> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> > [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ben
> > Rosengart
> > Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2005 11:47 AM
> > To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] 1280 UT2 without sepia; plus, some archival
> > questions
> > 
> > On Tue, Sep 06, 2005 at 07:40:27AM -0700, Paul Roark wrote:
> > > Note that I also have curves for a number of glossy papers when Photo
> > Black
> > > is loaded.  See the bottom section of
> > > http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/UT2-curves.html .  The neutral one does
> > not
> > > take advantage of the second LM in the Y position.
> > 
> > Naturally.  And these curves work equally well for PKN as for PK?
> > 
> > > Where you have a second LM in the Y spot, you might also consider
> > getting
> > > the ramp reasonably close with sliders (driver set to Color Controls)
> > and
> > > then using a monotone curve for the final linearization.  This is the
> > > approach I've started to use for the C86 when I'm using it to work up
> > images
> > > for the larger printers.  If you can get the tone you like with the
> > sliders
> > > and the contrast reasonably close, the use of a monotone curve is
> > something
> > > many find well within what they can do.
> > 
> > This sounds like the sort of finicky business that I prefer to leave
> > to others wherever possible.  I don't have a densitometer, so I
> > could never be sure whether I had it right or not.
> > 
> > --
> >  Ben Rosengart                                          ben@...
> >        "Young people should be seen and not heard, because they're
> >         good-looking but not too bright.  We're pretty bright now,
> >         but we're ugly." -- Grace Slick on the '60s youth movement
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
> > they are often being updated.
> > 
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> > 
> > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
> > unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
> > page.
> > 
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> > them short.
> > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
> > Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
> > membership without notice.
> > - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
> > printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from
> > the membership.
> > - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
> > guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner
> > and Moderators. See Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines in the Files
> > section:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> > 
> > BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> > YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE OWNER AND
> > MODERATORS OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO
> > YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR
> > EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF
> > PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE
> > OWNER AND MODERATORS OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN
> > ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE
> > OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii)
> > UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii)
> > STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> > YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE
> > PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> > 
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as they are often being updated.
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
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> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership without notice.
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> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and Moderators. See ?Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines? in the Files section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> 
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE ?OWNER? AND ?MODERATORS? OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  ?OWNER? AND ?MODERATORS? OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
>  
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> 

-- 
 Ben Rosengart                                          ben@...
       "Young people should be seen and not heard, because they're
        good-looking but not too bright.  We're pretty bright now,
        but we're ugly." -- Grace Slick on the '60s youth movement

On Tue, Sep 06, 2005 at 02:59:19PM -0400, Ben Rosengart wrote:
> On Mon, Sep 05, 2005 at 08:19:53PM -0400, Ben Rosengart wrote:
> 
> >   Ilford Smooth Pearl
> >   neutral tone
> > 
> >   now: PKN, UT2-LM replacing sepia, sliders
> >   before: Eboni (not used, I think), stock UT2 set, curves
> > 
> > My first print under the new regime came out with blocked up shadows,
> > and far too cool.
> 
> I didn't convert my RGB file to grayscale before printing.  You
> wrote that that was necessary at
> <http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/Monotone_Curves.htm>.  Perhaps that
> was the problem.

Nope.  I'm back to printing with RGB curves for now, since I'm getting
consistently good results with that system.  This means I get no benefit
from the second LM, but it doesn't sound like that's a dramatic benefit
in any case.

-- 
 Ben Rosengart                                          ben@...
       "Young people should be seen and not heard, because they're
        good-looking but not too bright.  We're pretty bright now,
        but we're ugly." -- Grace Slick on the '60s youth movement

On Tue, Sep 06, 2005 at 05:42:11PM -0700, Paul Roark wrote:
> Some really like BO with PKN.  Give it a try.

The prints aren't coming out right.  They look sort of light, and
there is visible banding.  Perhaps I'm using the wrong paper type
setting.  Is it documented anywhere which paper types to use with
PK/PKN BO on the 1280?

Currently I'm using Ilford Smooth Pearl, so as not to be changing
too many things at once, but once I get comfortable with PKN I
intend to switch to Epson Premium Luster (I also have some Semigloss
and Glossy to try out at some point).

-- 
 Ben Rosengart                                          ben@...
       "Young people should be seen and not heard, because they're
        good-looking but not too bright.  We're pretty bright now,
        but we're ugly." -- Grace Slick on the '60s youth movement

Original message from Paul Roark:

Jamie,

You can print a good black with the UT2 and Eboni installed. The 
curves just use the 2 dark grays to generate the black. So, if you 
have any interest in printing on matte paper, I'd just leave the 
Eboni installed as is.

If you have no interest in matte paper, then I'd put MIS PKN 
(neutral photo black) in the K position. It gets a better dmax than 
the standard PK, and it also avoids the warm cross-over that occurs 
if pure carbon is used as a black ink.

On advantage to the PKN is that you'd be able to print from 
grayscale files using the sliders and no curves. If you don't want 
sepia and like neutral to cool glossy prints, you can also remove 
the sepia toner in the yellow spot and replace it with a carbon ink -
- the UT2 LM, UT1 Y, or even the FS-Y (or FSN-y for cooler prints). 
Which way to go depends on how the shadow densities and tones look 
to you.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Paul,

I've opted to put together a second 1290 setup using spongeless 
carts with UT2 inks, and taking your advice above I've put PKN in 
the K position and FSN-y in the yellow position.

Now just to check I've got my options correct, before I start curve 
building for QTR: (with ref to Glossy/Semigloss and Lustre only,)

1) BO using PKN
2) 2K using PKN and FSN-y
3) 4K using PKN, M, LM and FSN-y
4) and finally all 6 inks for a neutral rendition (or maybe a cool 
curve that could be blended with the warmer carbon curve to give a 
neutral might be better choice?)

any pointers or ideas would be very much appreciated.

Incidently I'm about to setup an R200 with the same inks as above to 
see what I can get out of that,

yours in anticiation,

Jamie Creed.

Jamie,


> 
> I've opted to put together a second 1290 setup using spongeless
> carts with UT2 inks, and taking your advice [below] I've put PKN in
> the K position and FSN-y in the yellow position.
> 
> Now just to check I've got my options correct, before I start curve
> building for QTR: (with ref to Glossy/Semigloss and Lustre only,)
> 
> 1) BO using PKN
> 2) 2K using PKN and FSN-y
> 3) 4K using PKN, M, LM and FSN-y

The UT2 M and LM are warm carbon.  They were meant to be mixed with the cool
UT2 C & LC on the paper.   

> 4) and finally all 6 inks for a neutral rendition (or maybe a cool
> curve that could be blended with the warmer carbon curve to give a
> neutral might be better choice?)

I favor using all the inks unless you want a pure carbon print, in which
case the PKN and FSN-Y are probably not the best choices.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 

_________________________________________

> Original message from Paul Roark:
> 
> Jamie,
> 
> You can print a good black with the UT2 and Eboni installed. The
> curves just use the 2 dark grays to generate the black. So, if you
> have any interest in printing on matte paper, I'd just leave the
> Eboni installed as is.
> 
> If you have no interest in matte paper, then I'd put MIS PKN
> (neutral photo black) in the K position. It gets a better dmax than
> the standard PK, and it also avoids the warm cross-over that occurs
> if pure carbon is used as a black ink.
> 
> On advantage to the PKN is that you'd be able to print from
> grayscale files using the sliders and no curves. If you don't want
> sepia and like neutral to cool glossy prints, you can also remove
> the sepia toner in the yellow spot and replace it with a carbon ink -
> - the UT2 LM, UT1 Y, or even the FS-Y (or FSN-y for cooler prints).
> Which way to go depends on how the shadow densities and tones look
> to you.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com

Paul,

thanks for the reply and info, but now I've got myself all confused!

1) with ref to Glossy/Semigloss and Lustre only, should I try to use 
all six inks to produce the various hues I want; neutral, cool and 
warm?

2) is BO and 2K black printing with PKN and FSN-y not a good idea?

3) Quote - "I favor using all the inks unless you want a pure carbon 
print, in which case the PKN and FSN-Y are probably not the best 
choices." I don't understand this at all, I must be missing 
something very basic somewhere, I thought they were all carbon 
inks, please correct me as to where my thinking is going wrong,

Regards, Jamie

-------------------------------------------------------------------

message from Paul Roark:

Jamie,

>
> I've opted to put together a second 1290 setup using spongeless
> carts with UT2 inks, and taking your advice [below] I've put PKN in
> the K position and FSN-y in the yellow position.
>
> Now just to check I've got my options correct, before I start curve
> building for QTR: (with ref to Glossy/Semigloss and Lustre only,)
>
> 1) BO using PKN
> 2) 2K using PKN and FSN-y
> 3) 4K using PKN, M, LM and FSN-y

The UT2 M and LM are warm carbon. They were meant to be mixed with 
the cool UT2 C & LC on the paper.

> 4) and finally all 6 inks for a neutral rendition (or maybe a cool
> curve that could be blended with the warmer carbon curve to give a
> neutral might be better choice?)

I favor using all the inks unless you want a pure carbon print, in 
which case the PKN and FSN-Y are probably not the best choices.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

_________________________________________

> Original message from Paul Roark:
>
> Jamie,
>
> You can print a good black with the UT2 and Eboni installed. The
> curves just use the 2 dark grays to generate the black. So, if you
> have any interest in printing on matte paper, I'd just leave the
> Eboni installed as is.
>
> If you have no interest in matte paper, then I'd put MIS PKN
> (neutral photo black) in the K position. It gets a better dmax than
> the standard PK, and it also avoids the warm cross-over that occurs
> if pure carbon is used as a black ink.
>
> On advantage to the PKN is that you'd be able to print from
> grayscale files using the sliders and no curves. If you don't want
> sepia and like neutral to cool glossy prints, you can also remove
> the sepia toner in the yellow spot and replace it with a carbon   
> ink - the UT2 LM, UT1 Y, or even the FS-Y (or FSN-y for cooler    
> prints). Which way to go depends on how the shadow densities and > 
> tones look to you.
>
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com

Jamie,

> 
> 1) with ref to Glossy/Semigloss and Lustre only, should I try to use
> all six inks to produce the various hues I want; neutral, cool and
> warm?

Yes.  The only time you'd need to cut out the cool inks entirely is if you
wanted carbon, which is quite warm.  I'd guess most prefer a medium warm.
You can download one of my curve for that and see the relative mix that gets
you there.


> 
> 2) is BO and 2K black printing with PKN and FSN-y not a good idea?

I'm just not sure why one would want to do it, but then to me BO is the way
one gets B&W and color in a non-K3 machine without a rip.  However, it's
easy enough to try all the combinations and see if you like the mix.


> 3) Quote - "I favor using all the inks unless you want a pure carbon
> print, in which case the PKN and FSN-Y are probably not the best
> choices." I don't understand this at all, I must be missing
> something very basic somewhere, I thought they were all carbon
> inks, please correct me as to where my thinking is going wrong,

In the UT2 inkset the M and LM are "pure carbon" (plus a base and probably
some edge-effect treatment to the carbon for various purposes.  Carbon is by
nature very warm, at least at the current level of technology.  The cooler
inks, which include PKN and FSN-Y, are made cooler by mixing in some color
pigments.  The cooler inks are still predominantly carbon, however.

Hope this helps.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 

> 
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> message from Paul Roark:
> 
> Jamie,
> 
> >
> > I've opted to put together a second 1290 setup using spongeless
> > carts with UT2 inks, and taking your advice [below] I've put PKN in
> > the K position and FSN-y in the yellow position.
> >
> > Now just to check I've got my options correct, before I start curve
> > building for QTR: (with ref to Glossy/Semigloss and Lustre only,)
> >
> > 1) BO using PKN
> > 2) 2K using PKN and FSN-y
> > 3) 4K using PKN, M, LM and FSN-y
> 
> The UT2 M and LM are warm carbon. They were meant to be mixed with
> the cool UT2 C & LC on the paper.
> 
> > 4) and finally all 6 inks for a neutral rendition (or maybe a cool
> > curve that could be blended with the warmer carbon curve to give a
> > neutral might be better choice?)
> 
> I favor using all the inks unless you want a pure carbon print, in
> which case the PKN and FSN-Y are probably not the best choices.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
> 
> _________________________________________
> 
> 
> 
> > Original message from Paul Roark:
> >
> > Jamie,
> >
> > You can print a good black with the UT2 and Eboni installed. The
> > curves just use the 2 dark grays to generate the black. So, if you
> > have any interest in printing on matte paper, I'd just leave the
> > Eboni installed as is.
> >
> > If you have no interest in matte paper, then I'd put MIS PKN
> > (neutral photo black) in the K position. It gets a better dmax than
> > the standard PK, and it also avoids the warm cross-over that occurs
> > if pure carbon is used as a black ink.
> >
> > On advantage to the PKN is that you'd be able to print from
> > grayscale files using the sliders and no curves. If you don't want
> > sepia and like neutral to cool glossy prints, you can also remove
> > the sepia toner in the yellow spot and replace it with a carbon
> > ink - the UT2 LM, UT1 Y, or even the FS-Y (or FSN-y for cooler
> > prints). Which way to go depends on how the shadow densities and >
> > tones look to you.
> >
> > Paul
> > www.PaulRoark.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
> they are often being updated.
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
> page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
> Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
> membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
> printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from
> the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner
> and Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files
> section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> 
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND
> "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO
> YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR
> EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF
> PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE
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