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Re: [Digital BW] inks

Re: [Digital BW] inks

2002-01-02 by Julian Thomas

MIS VM . www.inksupply.com variable tone - I've seen great prints. BTW if
you think Piezo is expensive, try living in europe, you can double theprice!

Julian
----- Original Message -----
From: "taylynapowers" <dave@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2002 2:26 PM
Subject: [Digital BW] inks


> I am looking for some information on inks. I will be setting up an
> epson 980 for black and white printing.
> I have looked at piezography for inks and WOW, what a price.
> Are there anyother inks that will do the same job, fine art, for a
> lower price?
> I want to get away from the cartridge.
>
> thanks
>
> dave
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
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resources on the homepage.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
>
>
>
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>
>
>

Re: [Digital BW] inks

2002-01-02 by Steadman Uhlich

The same could be said for living in the USA....when I go to buy something made in Europe (art papers, ) or Clementines (small tangerines) or shoes or shotguns from Spain...  Wink

Steadman
  if
  you think Piezo is expensive, try living in europe, you can double theprice!

  Julian
Show quoted textHide quoted text
  ----- Original Message -----
  From: "taylynapowers" <dave@...>
  To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
  Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2002 2:26 PM
  Subject: [Digital BW] inks


  > I am looking for some information on inks. I will be setting up an
  > epson 980 for black and white printing.
  > I have looked at piezography for inks and WOW, what a price.
  > Are there anyother inks that will do the same job, fine art, for a
  > lower price?
  > I want to get away from the cartridge.
  >
  > thanks
  >
  > dave
  >
  >
  >
  > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
  other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
  >
  > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
  >
  > Please follow these basic guidelines:
  > - Include your full name with your message.
  > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
  > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
  them short.
  > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
  > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
  > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
  > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
  resources on the homepage.
  >
  >
  >
  >
  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
  >
  >
  >


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] inks

2002-01-02 by Steadman Uhlich

Dave, 

When you buy into Piezo, you don't just buy ink...the money you spend  is not just inks.  The money you spend on Piezo also buys you the Piezo software and about 30 paper profiles for the ink.  That alone is worth the money in my opinion. 

Steadman
Show quoted textHide quoted text
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: taylynapowers 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2002 7:26 AM
  Subject: [Digital BW] inks


  I am looking for some information on inks. I will be setting up an 
  epson 980 for black and white printing. 
  I have looked at piezography for inks and WOW, what a price.
  Are there anyother inks that will do the same job, fine art, for a 
  lower price?
  I want to get away from the cartridge.

  thanks

  dave


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] inks

2002-01-02 by Julian Thomas

I know we disagree on this Steadman ;-0 But i agree about the piezo
software - it is very good and worth the initial buy, but after that? The
inks are not worth the money - now. At one time they were unique, but not
now.  Having piezo and FS on two printers the quality is identical.
Interestingly enough a couple of weeks ago someone came to buy prints and he
ended up buying two. I gave him the choice of different 'versions' of the
same image i.e. piezo was one and FS the other - he chose the FS prints both
times. I have only one image that looks 'worse' with FS. I guess Piezo2 is
going to kick the ball game further forward so I look forward to that - but
I don't like the Microsoft-like marketing strategy of Piezo - you have to
buy software and inks - like their bundling god-knows what into their Os
(email IE etc). There are alternatives!

Julian
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steadman Uhlich" <steadmanuhlich@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2002 3:26 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] inks


> Dave,
>
> When you buy into Piezo, you don't just buy ink...the money you spend  is
not just inks.  The money you spend on Piezo also buys you the Piezo
software and about 30 paper profiles for the ink.  That alone is worth the
money in my opinion.
>
> Steadman
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: taylynapowers
>   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
>   Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2002 7:26 AM
>   Subject: [Digital BW] inks
>
>
>   I am looking for some information on inks. I will be setting up an
>   epson 980 for black and white printing.
>   I have looked at piezography for inks and WOW, what a price.
>   Are there anyother inks that will do the same job, fine art, for a
>   lower price?
>   I want to get away from the cartridge.
>
>   thanks
>
>   dave
>
>
>         Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>               ADVERTISEMENT
>
>
>
>
>   Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
>   http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
>   Please follow these basic guidelines:
>   - Include your full name with your message.
>   - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
>   - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to
keep them short.
>   - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject
header.
>   - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
"flames."
>   - Complete your Yahoo profile.
>   - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.
>
>
>
>
>   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
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them short.
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Re: [Digital BW] inks

2002-01-02 by weisbergj

I'm not familar with FS-can you provide more details?

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Julian Thomas" 
<julianthomas@t...> wrote:
> I know we disagree on this Steadman ;-0 But i agree about the piezo
> software - it is very good and worth the initial buy, but after 
that? The
> inks are not worth the money - now. At one time they were unique, 
but not
> now.  Having piezo and FS on two printers the quality is identical.
> Interestingly enough a couple of weeks ago someone came to buy 
prints and he
> ended up buying two. I gave him the choice of different 'versions' 
of the
> same image i.e. piezo was one and FS the other - he chose the FS 
prints both
> times. I have only one image that looks 'worse' with FS. I guess 
Piezo2 is
> going to kick the ball game further forward so I look forward to 
that - but
> I don't like the Microsoft-like marketing strategy of Piezo - you 
have to
> buy software and inks - like their bundling god-knows what into 
their Os
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> (email IE etc). There are alternatives!
> 
> Julian

Re: [Digital BW] inks

2002-01-02 by Julian Thomas

Sure MIS Full Spectrum here...
http://www.inksupply.com/index.cfm?source=html/quadtone.html. The only inks
to work with the piezo driver. And they ship global priority which means
that you don't pay customs!

Julian
----- Original Message -----
From: "weisbergj" <weisbergj@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2002 4:49 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] inks


> I'm not familar with FS-can you provide more details?
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Julian Thomas"
> <julianthomas@t...> wrote:
> > I know we disagree on this Steadman ;-0 But i agree about the piezo
> > software - it is very good and worth the initial buy, but after
> that? The
> > inks are not worth the money - now. At one time they were unique,
> but not
> > now.  Having piezo and FS on two printers the quality is identical.
> > Interestingly enough a couple of weeks ago someone came to buy
> prints and he
> > ended up buying two. I gave him the choice of different 'versions'
> of the
> > same image i.e. piezo was one and FS the other - he chose the FS
> prints both
> > times. I have only one image that looks 'worse' with FS. I guess
> Piezo2 is
> > going to kick the ball game further forward so I look forward to
> that - but
> > I don't like the Microsoft-like marketing strategy of Piezo - you
> have to
> > buy software and inks - like their bundling god-knows what into
> their Os
> > (email IE etc). There are alternatives!
> >
> > Julian
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Re: [Digital BW] inks

2002-01-02 by Steadman Uhlich

Hola Julian, 

Yes...we disagree on a few things.  (grin)

I personally don't care what kind of inks anyone purchases.  

But...if I were responsible for tech support on the PiezoBW system....I would.  

While the FS inks may deliver "close" or "identical" in your opinion, they are "different" inks.  And, related to the "identical" outcome....I seem to recall that you and others do have to make some adjustments to your image files to get that "close."  In other words, more work (though it may be minor for someone with your skills). 

If someone wants to experiment or try less expensive inks...go for it.  But...I don't think that also means they have the right to complain to Piezo if they are not using Piezo inks.  I don't think anything about PiezoBW says anything about "buy our software and use anybody's inks."  It is not an "open system" but instead is a very well defined proprietary solution....that happens to be an alternative to Epson. 

Microsoft?  I don't agree with your analogy.  

I think if I were in a position to start a small company that aimed to provide the very best highest quality quadtones...and software that is sophisticated and simple for users...(like Piezo)...I would have to limit my tech support to users who "bought the system" and were using inks I know work.   That is what I would do....and I bet so would most others if they were in the same situation.  I for one have always been impressed by the level of support offered for free by Piezo tech support.  Very impressed.  

Anyway...it is good that there are alternatives out there.  I think alternatives are great.  

By the way....I truly hope that Paul Roark can come up with a good Sepia solution as I will be one of the first to buy into it....well....maybe not the very first.  (wink)

Sincerely, 
Steadman 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Julian Thomas 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2002 9:06 AM
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] inks


  I know we disagree on this Steadman ;-0 But i agree about the piezo
  software - it is very good and worth the initial buy, but after that? The
  inks are not worth the money - now. At one time they were unique, but not
  now.  Having piezo and FS on two printers the quality is identical.
  Interestingly enough a couple of weeks ago someone came to buy prints and he
  ended up buying two. I gave him the choice of different 'versions' of the
  same image i.e. piezo was one and FS the other - he chose the FS prints both
  times. I have only one image that looks 'worse' with FS. I guess Piezo2 is
  going to kick the ball game further forward so I look forward to that - but
  I don't like the Microsoft-like marketing strategy of Piezo - you have to
  buy software and inks - like their bundling god-knows what into their Os
  (email IE etc). There are alternatives!

  Julian
  ----- Original Message -----
  From: "Steadman Uhlich" <steadmanuhlich@...>
  To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
  Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2002 3:26 PM
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] inks


  > Dave,
  >
  > When you buy into Piezo, you don't just buy ink...the money you spend  is
  not just inks.  The money you spend on Piezo also buys you the Piezo
  software and about 30 paper profiles for the ink.  That alone is worth the
  money in my opinion.
  >
  > Steadman
  >   ----- Original Message -----
  >   From: taylynapowers
  >   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  >   Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2002 7:26 AM
  >   Subject: [Digital BW] inks
  >
  >
  >   I am looking for some information on inks. I will be setting up an
  >   epson 980 for black and white printing.
  >   I have looked at piezography for inks and WOW, what a price.
  >   Are there anyother inks that will do the same job, fine art, for a
  >   lower price?
  >   I want to get away from the cartridge.
  >
  >   thanks
  >
  >   dave
  >
  >
  >         Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
  >               ADVERTISEMENT
  >
  >
  >
  >
  >   Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
  other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
  >
  >   http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
  >
  >   Please follow these basic guidelines:
  >   - Include your full name with your message.
  >   - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
  >   - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to
  keep them short.
  >   - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject
  header.
  >   - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
  "flames."
  >   - Complete your Yahoo profile.
  >   - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
  resources on the homepage.
  >
  >
  >
  >
  >   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
  >
  >
  >
  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
  >
  >
  > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
  other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
  >
  > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
  >
  > Please follow these basic guidelines:
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  > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
  them short.
  > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
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  > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
  > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
  resources on the homepage.
  >
  >
  >
  >
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  >
  >
  >


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] inks

2002-01-02 by Julian Thomas

Yeah, they are different inks. But the only 'work' needed is a new dotgain
adjustment in softproof - the same as for any new paper/ink combo. And yes,
tech support is excellent at IJM - I've not needed it at MIS. What is
exciting for me now is the variety of top quality products available for BW
printing. I'm looking at setting up a scanning/printing service with a
friend and at one point the only option for large format printers was
piezo - now with the Image4 rip and various inks you really do have
alternatives. I still think that the price of IJM inks are way ott and have
more to do with IJM's supply chain than anything in the inks. I'm looking
forward to Piezo2 though!
Julian
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steadman Uhlich" <steadmanuhlich@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2002 7:18 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] inks


> Hola Julian,
>
> Yes...we disagree on a few things.  (grin)
>
> I personally don't care what kind of inks anyone purchases.
>
> But...if I were responsible for tech support on the PiezoBW system....I
would.
>
> While the FS inks may deliver "close" or "identical" in your opinion, they
are "different" inks.  And, related to the "identical" outcome....I seem to
recall that you and others do have to make some adjustments to your image
files to get that "close."  In other words, more work (though it may be
minor for someone with your skills).
>
> If someone wants to experiment or try less expensive inks...go for it.
But...I don't think that also means they have the right to complain to Piezo
if they are not using Piezo inks.  I don't think anything about PiezoBW says
anything about "buy our software and use anybody's inks."  It is not an
"open system" but instead is a very well defined proprietary
solution....that happens to be an alternative to Epson.
>
> Microsoft?  I don't agree with your analogy.
>
> I think if I were in a position to start a small company that aimed to
provide the very best highest quality quadtones...and software that is
sophisticated and simple for users...(like Piezo)...I would have to limit my
tech support to users who "bought the system" and were using inks I know
work.   That is what I would do....and I bet so would most others if they
were in the same situation.  I for one have always been impressed by the
level of support offered for free by Piezo tech support.  Very impressed.
>
> Anyway...it is good that there are alternatives out there.  I think
alternatives are great.
>
> By the way....I truly hope that Paul Roark can come up with a good Sepia
solution as I will be one of the first to buy into it....well....maybe not
the very first.  (wink)
>
> Sincerely,
> Steadman
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: Julian Thomas
>   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
>   Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2002 9:06 AM
>   Subject: Re: [Digital BW] inks
>
>
>   I know we disagree on this Steadman ;-0 But i agree about the piezo
>   software - it is very good and worth the initial buy, but after that?
The
>   inks are not worth the money - now. At one time they were unique, but
not
>   now.  Having piezo and FS on two printers the quality is identical.
>   Interestingly enough a couple of weeks ago someone came to buy prints
and he
>   ended up buying two. I gave him the choice of different 'versions' of
the
>   same image i.e. piezo was one and FS the other - he chose the FS prints
both
>   times. I have only one image that looks 'worse' with FS. I guess Piezo2
is
>   going to kick the ball game further forward so I look forward to that -
but
>   I don't like the Microsoft-like marketing strategy of Piezo - you have
to
>   buy software and inks - like their bundling god-knows what into their Os
>   (email IE etc). There are alternatives!
>
>   Julian
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: "Steadman Uhlich" <steadmanuhlich@...>
>   To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
>   Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2002 3:26 PM
>   Subject: Re: [Digital BW] inks
>
>
>   > Dave,
>   >
>   > When you buy into Piezo, you don't just buy ink...the money you spend
is
>   not just inks.  The money you spend on Piezo also buys you the Piezo
>   software and about 30 paper profiles for the ink.  That alone is worth
the
>   money in my opinion.
>   >
>   > Steadman
>   >   ----- Original Message -----
>   >   From: taylynapowers
>   >   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
>   >   Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2002 7:26 AM
>   >   Subject: [Digital BW] inks
>   >
>   >
>   >   I am looking for some information on inks. I will be setting up an
>   >   epson 980 for black and white printing.
>   >   I have looked at piezography for inks and WOW, what a price.
>   >   Are there anyother inks that will do the same job, fine art, for a
>   >   lower price?
>   >   I want to get away from the cartridge.
>   >
>   >   thanks
>   >
>   >   dave
>   >
>   >
>   >         Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>   >               ADVERTISEMENT
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >   Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls
and
>   other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>   >
>   >   http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>   >
>   >   Please follow these basic guidelines:
>   >   - Include your full name with your message.
>   >   - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
>   >   - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages
to
>   keep them short.
>   >   - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject
>   header.
>   >   - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
>   "flames."
>   >   - Complete your Yahoo profile.
>   >   - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the
various
>   resources on the homepage.
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>   >
>   >
>   > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls
and
>   other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>   >
>   > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>   >
>   > Please follow these basic guidelines:
>   > - Include your full name with your message.
>   > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
>   > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to
keep
>   them short.
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Re: [Digital BW] inks

2002-01-03 by Michael Kravit

Steadman my friend, you wrote.....
  But...if I were responsible for tech support on the PiezoBW system....I would.  

  While the FS inks may deliver "close" or "identical" in your opinion, they are "different" inks.  And, related to the "identical" outcome....I seem to recall that you and others do have to make some adjustments to your image files to get that "close."  In other words, more work (though it may be minor for someone with your skills). 
  Not entirely true. Bob Zeiss had been working with Paul and others gathering detailed density data from test strips. He has been adjusting the densities of the middle tones to match the Piezo output exactly. I have been using a variant that is for all intents and purposes right on the money. I am now printing images with the Piezo software and MIS FS inks that are indestinguishable from the Piezo/Piezo originals (Except for a slightly cooler tone). From what I understand, the final mix should be ready for sale very shortly. No extra work needed.

  As you may know I strated using the ImagePrint 4 RIP. In our tests the blacks that I get knock the socks off of the black with Piezo software. In densitometer testing the Dmax for Piezo on H. Torchon is in the 1.67 range. With the IP4 RIP my tests show a Dmax of 1.92 to 2.0 depending on the paper. No extra work, just better prints.

  I will not comment on the Piezo inks, but from what I am hearing IJM is releasing new inks next months that will address certain outstanding problems that people have been experiencing.

  Anyway...it is good that there are alternatives out there.  I think alternatives are great. 

  I agree 100%.  

  Happy New Year

  Mike


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] inks

2002-01-03 by Steadman Uhlich

Michael my good buddy,   

While FS may be "close"..."close" is not equal to "The Very Same."  

When FS is truly "The Very Same" then I would expect the market for that ink to expand.  

But....I may or may not be one of the buyers.  Why?

Because I like my prints Warm...toasty....brown...buttery...dark chocolate....roasted java bean brown.  

I even wish the Piezo inks were even more "brown" as I would like it that way.  (Consequently, if Paul Roark comes up with a real Sepia look I will buy some).  

With everything else I pretty much agree.....except....well....that is another thread.. (wINK)

Regards and have a wonderful time printing regardless of your ink choice.

Steadman
Show quoted textHide quoted text
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Michael Kravit 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2002 7:46 PM
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] inks


  Steadman my friend, you wrote.....
    But...if I were responsible for tech support on the PiezoBW system....I would.  

    While the FS inks may deliver "close" or "identical" in your opinion, they are "different" inks.  And, related to the "identical" outcome....I seem to recall that you and others do have to make some adjustments to your image files to get that "close."  In other words, more work (though it may be minor for someone with your skills). 
    Not entirely true. Bob Zeiss had been working with Paul and others gathering detailed density data from test strips. He has been adjusting the densities of the middle tones to match the Piezo output exactly. I have been using a variant that is for all intents and purposes right on the money. I am now printing images with the Piezo software and MIS FS inks that are indestinguishable from the Piezo/Piezo originals (Except for a slightly cooler tone). From what I understand, the final mix should be ready for sale very shortly. No extra work needed.

    As you may know I strated using the ImagePrint 4 RIP. In our tests the blacks that I get knock the socks off of the black with Piezo software. In densitometer testing the Dmax for Piezo on H. Torchon is in the 1.67 range. With the IP4 RIP my tests show a Dmax of 1.92 to 2.0 depending on the paper. No extra work, just better prints.

    I will not comment on the Piezo inks, but from what I am hearing IJM is releasing new inks next months that will address certain outstanding problems that people have been experiencing.

    Anyway...it is good that there are alternatives out there.  I think alternatives are great. 

    I agree 100%.  

    Happy New Year

    Mike


  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] inks

2002-01-03 by Steadman Uhlich

Mike,  Olde Friend  (notice the "e" for old...I mean really old)  (wink)

You and I think almost alike...I mean...like....really "close." 

I am glad your system is up and running...mine is not (sadly).  

Steadman
Show quoted textHide quoted text
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Michael Kravit 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2002 9:27 PM
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] inks


  Steadman old buddy, old chap, old man,

  When I say "close" I mean close. Very close. You see, the difference is perceptible only when measured in densitometric terms. Surely an old man like you can't possibly see the difference. Even a 47 year old stud like me has problems seeing the difference. And besides, with the compression that IJM builds into the shadows, who says that the Piezo inks are indeed "right". ;-)

  Anyway, seriously, you are correct. Close is close and obviously not the same. But I think at a certain point close becomes moot.

  The good thing is that with choices we can all tailor our personal working style and choices to use the ink of our choice.

  Regards,

  Michael J. Kravit, AIA
  Architect/Photographer
  www.kravit.net/photography



  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] inks

2002-01-03 by Michael Kravit

Steadman old buddy, old chap, old man,

When I say "close" I mean close. Very close. You see, the difference is perceptible only when measured in densitometric terms. Surely an old man like you can't possibly see the difference. Even a 47 year old stud like me has problems seeing the difference. And besides, with the compression that IJM builds into the shadows, who says that the Piezo inks are indeed "right". ;-)

Anyway, seriously, you are correct. Close is close and obviously not the same. But I think at a certain point close becomes moot.

The good thing is that with choices we can all tailor our personal working style and choices to use the ink of our choice.

Regards,

Michael J. Kravit, AIA
Architect/Photographer
www.kravit.net/photography



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] inks

2002-01-03 by Julian Thomas

Mike, I've been checking out the ImagePrint site and it doesn't mention FS
or Piezo inks. is there more than one model?

Julian
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Kravit" <michael.kravit@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2002 2:46 AM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] inks


> Steadman my friend, you wrote.....
>   But...if I were responsible for tech support on the PiezoBW system....I
would.
>
>   While the FS inks may deliver "close" or "identical" in your opinion,
they are "different" inks.  And, related to the "identical" outcome....I
seem to recall that you and others do have to make some adjustments to your
image files to get that "close."  In other words, more work (though it may
be minor for someone with your skills).
>   Not entirely true. Bob Zeiss had been working with Paul and others
gathering detailed density data from test strips. He has been adjusting the
densities of the middle tones to match the Piezo output exactly. I have been
using a variant that is for all intents and purposes right on the money. I
am now printing images with the Piezo software and MIS FS inks that are
indestinguishable from the Piezo/Piezo originals (Except for a slightly
cooler tone). From what I understand, the final mix should be ready for sale
very shortly. No extra work needed.
>
>   As you may know I strated using the ImagePrint 4 RIP. In our tests the
blacks that I get knock the socks off of the black with Piezo software. In
densitometer testing the Dmax for Piezo on H. Torchon is in the 1.67 range.
With the IP4 RIP my tests show a Dmax of 1.92 to 2.0 depending on the paper.
No extra work, just better prints.
>
>   I will not comment on the Piezo inks, but from what I am hearing IJM is
releasing new inks next months that will address certain outstanding
problems that people have been experiencing.
>
>   Anyway...it is good that there are alternatives out there.  I think
alternatives are great.
>
>   I agree 100%.
>
>   Happy New Year
>
>   Mike
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Re: [Digital BW] inks

2002-01-03 by tomoc

Steadman-

This is all an interesting thread..but the reality for many of us is 
that we had some really serious problems with the piezo ink in the 
Epson printer(s) we own. I, for one, LOVED the piezo prints. But I 
literally spent almost 2x time working on clogs as I did printing. 
Since I changed to FS inks on the piezo software, I have spent about 
5 minutes a week dealing with clogs or nozzle checks.

I am not totally convinced that the FS prints are really identical to 
the Piezo ones. I just got another 1160 and I'm setting it up on 
Piezo (glutton for punishment or eternal optimist) and will try some 
subjective testing to see if I can tell the difference. The one 
immediate difference I can tell you is that the FS inks SMELL much 
nicer than the piezo ones...don't know how much that has to do with 
the quality of the prints, but it makes working in a darkroom a lot 
easier <g>.

I know I'm opening pandora's box trying to lay any blame for piezo 
issues on the inks... A lot has been said on that issue and almost 
everyone says it isn't the inks...but I had clogs before and I don't 
now, so I use the FS. Cone support is terrific and they are quick to 
get involved in problems...their website has many many suggestions 
for dealing with problems (but that also brings up the question as to 
why they need so many solutions) but none of them worked for 
me...should I have asked for a refund on my inks and piezo software? 
Maybe... But I found another solution...namely using a different 
inkset. Have I now given up the right to any support from Cone? I'd 
like to think not. I still buy the upgrades to the software, I still 
buy quite a lot of paper from him...I will certainly be trying his 
new inks and new version of the software...maybe I won't get the same 
(nor have I ever asked for it) level of service as someone who is 
able to use the piezo inks, but surely even this amount of patronage 
entitles me to SOME support...

Just another POV.

Tom O'Connell


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Steadman Uhlich" 
<steadmanuhlich@k...> wrote:
> Michael my good buddy,   
> 
> While FS may be "close"..."close" is not equal to "The Very Same."  
> 
> When FS is truly "The Very Same" then I would expect the market for 
that ink to expand.  
> 
> But....I may or may not be one of the buyers.  Why?
> 
> Because I like my prints Warm...toasty....brown...buttery...dark 
chocolate....roasted java bean brown.  
> 
> I even wish the Piezo inks were even more "brown" as I would like 
it that way.  (Consequently, if Paul Roark comes up with a real Sepia 
look I will buy some).  
> 
> With everything else I pretty much agree.....except....well....that 
is another thread.. (wINK)
> 
> Regards and have a wonderful time printing regardless of your ink 
choice.
> 
> Steadman
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
>   From: Michael Kravit 
>   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y... 
>   Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2002 7:46 PM
>   Subject: Re: [Digital BW] inks
> 
> 
>   Steadman my friend, you wrote.....
>     But...if I were responsible for tech support on the PiezoBW 
system....I would.  
> 
>     While the FS inks may deliver "close" or "identical" in your 
opinion, they are "different" inks.  And, related to the "identical" 
outcome....I seem to recall that you and others do have to make some 
adjustments to your image files to get that "close."  In other words, 
more work (though it may be minor for someone with your skills). 
>     Not entirely true. Bob Zeiss had been working with Paul and 
others gathering detailed density data from test strips. He has been 
adjusting the densities of the middle tones to match the Piezo output 
exactly. I have been using a variant that is for all intents and 
purposes right on the money. I am now printing images with the Piezo 
software and MIS FS inks that are indestinguishable from the 
Piezo/Piezo originals (Except for a slightly cooler tone). From what 
I understand, the final mix should be ready for sale very shortly. No 
extra work needed.
> 
>     As you may know I strated using the ImagePrint 4 RIP. In our 
tests the blacks that I get knock the socks off of the black with 
Piezo software. In densitometer testing the Dmax for Piezo on H. 
Torchon is in the 1.67 range. With the IP4 RIP my tests show a Dmax 
of 1.92 to 2.0 depending on the paper. No extra work, just better 
prints.
> 
>     I will not comment on the Piezo inks, but from what I am 
hearing IJM is releasing new inks next months that will address 
certain outstanding problems that people have been experiencing.
> 
>     Anyway...it is good that there are alternatives out there.  I 
think alternatives are great. 
> 
>     I agree 100%.  
> 
>     Happy New Year
> 
>     Mike
> 
> 
>   [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
> 
>         Yahoo! Groups Sponsor 
>               ADVERTISEMENT
>              
>        
>        
> 
>   Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, 
Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page 
is at:
> 
>   http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
>   Please follow these basic guidelines:
>   - Include your full name with your message.
>   - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
>   - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier 
messages to keep them short.
>   - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject 
header.
>   - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks 
or "flames."
>   - Complete your Yahoo profile.
>   - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the 
various resources on the homepage. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of 
Service. 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] inks

2002-01-04 by dogdrum7

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "tomoc" <tomoc@y...> wrote:


their website has many many suggestions 
> for dealing with problems (but that also brings up the question as 
to 
> why they need so many solutions) but none of them worked for 
> me...should I have asked for a refund on my inks and piezo 
software? 

GOOD LUCK.


> Maybe... But I found another solution...namely using a different 
> inkset. Have I now given up the right to any support from Cone? I'd 
> like to think not. 

GOOD LUCK.

I still buy the upgrades to the software, I still 
> buy quite a lot of paper from him...I will certainly be trying his 
> new inks and new version of the software...maybe I won't get the 
same 
> (nor have I ever asked for it) level of service as someone who is 
> able to use the piezo inks, but surely even this amount of 
patronage 
> entitles me to SOME support...

GOOD LUCK.

> Just another POV.
> 
> Tom O'Connell
 
 
Seriously Tom, I would be very interested to see how those people 
will treat you at this point. I have found them to be arrogant and 
surprisingly disinterested in the concerns of their customers and 
potential customers. Please keep us abreast of developments.

Tim T.

Re: [Digital BW] inks

2002-01-04 by tomoc

>>Seriously Tom, I would be very interested to see how those people 
will treat you at this point. I have found them to be arrogant and 
surprisingly disinterested in the concerns of their customers and 
potential customers. Please keep us abreast of developments.

Tim T.<<<

Tim-

Did you get this feeling from email or from phone calls? I've had a 
few "short" email responses from them, but I knew it was when they 
were really busy getting out the 6.0 version.

Any time I have phoned them, I've gotten smart friendly helpful 
service. There is a lot of criticism in the forums comparing Jon to 
Gates... Whatever... They've been great to me.

Tom O'Connell

Re: [Digital BW] inks

2002-01-04 by Julian Thomas

>
> Any time I have phoned them, I've gotten smart friendly helpful
> service. There is a lot of criticism in the forums comparing Jon to
> Gates... Whatever... They've been great to me.
>
Err, that  came from me. I'm not comparing JC to BG. Jon was very helpful to
me when I had the greenies - where the comparison comes in is the marketing
of the product - as in you buy everything or nothing, a complete kit of OS,
email, IE, media player, cis, inks, driver etc etc. Some say that that is to
provide support, but that is the same argument BG usedin his recent US court
cases. My comments are not personal at all, I've found tech support, sales,
BB, JC to be more than helpful - but they won't split their software from
their inks.

Julian

Re: [Digital BW] inks

2002-01-04 by dogdrum7

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "tomoc" <tomoc@y...> wrote:
> >>Seriously Tom, I would be very interested to see how those people 
> will treat you at this point. I have found them to be arrogant and 
> surprisingly disinterested in the concerns of their customers and 
> potential customers. Please keep us abreast of developments.
> 
> Tim T.<<<
> 
> Tim-
> 
> Did you get this feeling from email or from phone calls? I've had a 
> few "short" email responses from them, but I knew it was when they 
> were really busy getting out the 6.0 version.


I've had 4 phone conversations with them Tom. One was pleasant and 
informative. 3 were pretty rude by business standards. I am a pretty 
easy going guy so it takes a remarkable level of insensitivity to set 
me off but those conversations put up large red flags for me. 
Probably once you have been coerced into buying one of their 
overpriced "bundles" they are a little nicer to you but I was 
surprised at the lack of tact or even concern about inticing a 
potential new customer into the fold. It was a take it or leave it 
attitude. Kinda like Lily Tomlin as the "phone lady" in the old days.
"We're the phone company. We don't have to". The Gates comparison is 
probably deserved. I truly hope you, as a current customer, have 
better luck than did.

Tim T.

Re: [Digital BW] inks

2002-01-04 by tomoc

>>Kinda like Lily Tomlin as the "phone lady" in the old days.
> "We're the phone company. We don't have to". The Gates comparison 
is 
> probably deserved. I truly hope you, as a current customer, have 
> better luck than did.
> 
> Tim T.

Well, I hope I have better luck than to need support then <g>.

So far, my experience with digital photography is that the support is 
better in forums like this than it is from the provider. Most "stuff" 
works or so many people wouldn't be using it, but getting advice from 
users seems to work better than from an $8.00/hour "support" trainee.

Tom O'Connell

Re: [Digital BW] inks

2002-01-05 by toliwel@aol.com

In a message dated 1/2/02 7:50:35 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
michael.kravit@... writes:

<< As you may know I strated using the ImagePrint 4 RIP. In our tests the 
blacks that I get knock the socks off of the black with Piezo software >>

Mike,  I am unfamiliar with ImagePrint 4.  Who makes it?

Also, you weren't quite clear with what ink you get those wonderful blacks.  
Was it with the peizo or MIS FS inks?  How does IP4 do this, more black ink?  
Additional ink from the CMY position inks?

Tom Wells
toliwel@...
towells@...

Re: [Digital BW] inks

2002-01-05 by Michael Kravit

Julian,

I was surprised that they do not mention this in their online brochure or specs. Check out the last paragraph of their online product review by Cris Daniels. It says...

"ImagePrint also supports the Cone BW Piezography inkset, and the Lysonic Quad Black inks as well. If there is something I haven't covered, you can call John or Daniel at Colorbyte Software, 1-813- 963-0241. They are better suited (than I the end user) to answer really technical questions about the product and can tell you which printers are currently supported. You can get a free Demo version of this RIP from Colorbyte if you call.  The demo watermarks your images but allows you to print and try before you buy. Awesome product indeed, and costs less that almost any other professional RIP on the market."

BTW, Jon Cone has hired them to design and develop the Piezography2 software. 
Jon is also releasing in February a completely new reformulated neutral inkset that is said to solve the clogging, sludge and greenies problems.

Regards,

Michael J. Kravit, AIA
Architect/Photographer
www.kravit.net/photography
Show quoted textHide quoted text
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Julian Thomas 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2002 11:45 PM
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] inks


  Mike, I've been checking out the ImagePrint site and it doesn't mention FS
  or Piezo inks. is there more than one model?

  Julian
  ----- Original Message -----
  From: "Michael Kravit" <michael.kravit@...>
  To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
  Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2002 2:46 AM
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] inks


  > Steadman my friend, you wrote.....
  >   But...if I were responsible for tech support on the PiezoBW system....I
  would.
  >
  >   While the FS inks may deliver "close" or "identical" in your opinion,
  they are "different" inks.  And, related to the "identical" outcome....I
  seem to recall that you and others do have to make some adjustments to your
  image files to get that "close."  In other words, more work (though it may
  be minor for someone with your skills).
  >   Not entirely true. Bob Zeiss had been working with Paul and others
  gathering detailed density data from test strips. He has been adjusting the
  densities of the middle tones to match the Piezo output exactly. I have been
  using a variant that is for all intents and purposes right on the money. I
  am now printing images with the Piezo software and MIS FS inks that are
  indestinguishable from the Piezo/Piezo originals (Except for a slightly
  cooler tone). From what I understand, the final mix should be ready for sale
  very shortly. No extra work needed.
  >
  >   As you may know I strated using the ImagePrint 4 RIP. In our tests the
  blacks that I get knock the socks off of the black with Piezo software. In
  densitometer testing the Dmax for Piezo on H. Torchon is in the 1.67 range.
  With the IP4 RIP my tests show a Dmax of 1.92 to 2.0 depending on the paper.
  No extra work, just better prints.
  >
  >   I will not comment on the Piezo inks, but from what I am hearing IJM is
  releasing new inks next months that will address certain outstanding
  problems that people have been experiencing.
  >
  >   Anyway...it is good that there are alternatives out there.  I think
  alternatives are great.
  >
  >   I agree 100%.
  >
  >   Happy New Year
  >
  >   Mike
  >
  >
  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
  >
  >
  >
  > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] inks

2002-01-05 by tomoc

Julian-

I wasn't taking a shot at you. Actually, I agree with you completely. 
This is a very valid criticism of Cone. 2 years ago, there might have 
been some validity to him wanting to keep his system "pure" since it 
was undergoing so much development and the alternatives were very 
much unproven. To maintain this position today is closing his eyes to 
reality. To try to "manage the market" has been a big mistake for any 
company that tried. In a field this large, a closed architecture 
attitude will eventually cause the company great harm. Look at the 
success of the Palm Pilot against the mighty Microsoft; I believe 
that the biggest factor here was the developer community was courted 
by Palm... And Cone may be making the same mistake by not courting 
the likes of Paul and John who are delivering some pretty incredible 
tools to us (not to mention they are giving away the help and the 
inks they write for are half the price of Cone ink...though this is 
not about price).

Anyhow, you make a good point on forcing customers to buy the ink 
with the software. I believe that should be the customer choice and 
that most people should and would at least try the Cone ink, so what 
would be lost by the good will of allowing customer choice?

Tom O'Connell

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Julian Thomas" 
<julianthomas@t...> wrote:
> >
> > Any time I have phoned them, I've gotten smart friendly helpful
> > service. There is a lot of criticism in the forums comparing Jon 
to
> > Gates... Whatever... They've been great to me.
> >
> Err, that  came from me. I'm not comparing JC to BG. Jon was very 
helpful to
> me when I had the greenies - where the comparison comes in is the 
marketing
> of the product - as in you buy everything or nothing, a complete 
kit of OS,
> email, IE, media player, cis, inks, driver etc etc. Some say that 
that is to
> provide support, but that is the same argument BG usedin his recent 
US court
> cases. My comments are not personal at all, I've found tech 
support, sales,
> BB, JC to be more than helpful - but they won't split their 
software from
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> their inks.
> 
> Julian

Re: [Digital BW] inks

2002-01-05 by Michael Kravit

Tom,

ImagePrint 4 is developed and sold by Colorbyte Software in Tampa.  I have no affiliation other than I purchased their product for my Epson 10000 in my office for color presentation work. As a result of it supporting the Piezo Inkset, I am using it on my 7000 as well with the MIS FS inks.

www.colorbytesoftware.com

BTW, they just released a MAC version and are releasing a desktop printer version.

When I compare prints made with the Piezo inks with the Piezo software vs. the IP4 RIP the blacks are blacker. I also compared the prints made with the Piezo Software and the IP4 RIP with MIS FS inks, the blacks also had increased density.

I think the RIP controls the ink channels to maximize the density. I am at a loss of how as I am not familiar with the RIP control process.

Regards,

Michael J. Kravit, AIA
Architect/Photographer
www.kravit.net/photography
Show quoted textHide quoted text
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: toliwel@... 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Friday, January 04, 2002 7:13 PM
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] inks


  In a message dated 1/2/02 7:50:35 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
  michael.kravit@... writes:

  << As you may know I strated using the ImagePrint 4 RIP. In our tests the 
  blacks that I get knock the socks off of the black with Piezo software >>

  Mike,  I am unfamiliar with ImagePrint 4.  Who makes it?

  Also, you weren't quite clear with what ink you get those wonderful blacks.  
  Was it with the peizo or MIS FS inks?  How does IP4 do this, more black ink?  
  Additional ink from the CMY position inks?

  Tom Wells
  toliwel@...
  towells@...

        Yahoo! Groups Sponsor 
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  Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:

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  Please follow these basic guidelines:
  - Include your full name with your message.
  - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
  - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
  - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
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  - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various resources on the homepage. 




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

RE: [Digital BW] inks

2002-01-05 by Nij

Tom,

But don't forget what an open system can achieve - new job-roles and
specialists charging $$$ who are the only ones who have the time to look
into the black-box and understand what all the buttons on the outside do. Of
course, I am thinking about colour management... and yes, I do suspect that
ICC/ICM is probably better than 'what was there before' (nothing???) but it
also STILL leaves some users wasting time and prints to get colour right
(even when they have made substantial efforts to calibrate their system!)

Piezo is still strong in it's simplicity - even if it is less than flexible
in allowing 'full-control' of editing ICQ profiles and so forth. The choice
to use third-party inks is still reasonably accesible by buying a cartridge
starter kit if you want ;)

Just trying to play a little devil's advocate here - I have no particular
knowledge on Cone's thought process here, and have no particular preference
myself as to splitting ink from software, or not. I _will_ tell you though
that if anyone called me up with a problem printing 'other' inks through the
Piezo driver... and the problems were 'tonality' related, I would be
pretty-much forced to say "Sounds like an ink problem". I'm not saying that
support would cease - but I am saying that a certain area of support would
effectively become 'off-limits'. I imagine you would have similar issues
calling Epson saying you were having problems with ICM profiles through
their driver - they WOULD blame something  / someone else ;)

I believe Piezo2 will give end users more flexibility (and therefore perhaps
more openness) - but also perhaps more complexity.

Just some thoughts...

Nij  [Looking forward to charging ?1000 per day as a 'grey management
consultant' <grins>)
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> -----Original Message-----
> From: tomoc [mailto:tomoc@...]
> Sent: 05 January 2002 02:16
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] inks
>
>
> Julian-
>
> I wasn't taking a shot at you. Actually, I agree with you completely.
> This is a very valid criticism of Cone. 2 years ago, there might have
> been some validity to him wanting to keep his system "pure" since it
> was undergoing so much development and the alternatives were very
> much unproven. To maintain this position today is closing his eyes to
> reality. To try to "manage the market" has been a big mistake for any
> company that tried. In a field this large, a closed architecture
> attitude will eventually cause the company great harm. Look at the
> success of the Palm Pilot against the mighty Microsoft; I believe
> that the biggest factor here was the developer community was courted
> by Palm... And Cone may be making the same mistake by not courting
> the likes of Paul and John who are delivering some pretty incredible
> tools to us (not to mention they are giving away the help and the
> inks they write for are half the price of Cone ink...though this is
> not about price).
>
> Anyhow, you make a good point on forcing customers to buy the ink
> with the software. I believe that should be the customer choice and
> that most people should and would at least try the Cone ink, so what
> would be lost by the good will of allowing customer choice?
>
> Tom O'Connell
>

Re: [Digital BW] inks

2002-01-05 by Todd Flashner

on 1/4/02 9:14 PM, Michael Kravit wrote:

> BTW, Jon Cone has hired them to design and develop the Piezography2 software.

Mike, any ideas as to what Piezo2 might do? Any ideas what Piezo2 might do
that ImagePrint doesn't?
Todd

Re: [Digital BW] inks

2002-01-05 by tomoc

Nij-

I think we're agreeing <g>

tom


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Nij" <nigel@m...> wrote:
> Tom,
> 
> But don't forget what an open system can achieve - new job-roles and
> specialists charging $$$ who are the only ones who have the time to 
look
> into the black-box and understand what all the buttons on the 
outside do. Of
> course, I am thinking about colour management... and yes, I do 
suspect that
> ICC/ICM is probably better than 'what was there before' 
(nothing???) but it
> also STILL leaves some users wasting time and prints to get colour 
right
> (even when they have made substantial efforts to calibrate their 
system!)
> 
> Piezo is still strong in it's simplicity - even if it is less than 
flexible
> in allowing 'full-control' of editing ICQ profiles and so forth. 
The choice
> to use third-party inks is still reasonably accesible by buying a 
cartridge
> starter kit if you want ;)
> 
> Just trying to play a little devil's advocate here - I have no 
particular
> knowledge on Cone's thought process here, and have no particular 
preference
> myself as to splitting ink from software, or not. I _will_ tell you 
though
> that if anyone called me up with a problem printing 'other' inks 
through the
> Piezo driver... and the problems were 'tonality' related, I would be
> pretty-much forced to say "Sounds like an ink problem". I'm not 
saying that
> support would cease - but I am saying that a certain area of 
support would
> effectively become 'off-limits'. I imagine you would have similar 
issues
> calling Epson saying you were having problems with ICM profiles 
through
> their driver - they WOULD blame something  / someone else ;)
> 
> I believe Piezo2 will give end users more flexibility (and 
therefore perhaps
> more openness) - but also perhaps more complexity.
> 
> Just some thoughts...
> 
> Nij  [Looking forward to charging ?1000 per day as a 'grey 
management
> consultant' <grins>)
> 
> 
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: tomoc [mailto:tomoc@y...]
> > Sent: 05 January 2002 02:16
> > To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...
> > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] inks
> >
> >
> > Julian-
> >
> > I wasn't taking a shot at you. Actually, I agree with you 
completely.
> > This is a very valid criticism of Cone. 2 years ago, there might 
have
> > been some validity to him wanting to keep his system "pure" since 
it
> > was undergoing so much development and the alternatives were very
> > much unproven. To maintain this position today is closing his 
eyes to
> > reality. To try to "manage the market" has been a big mistake for 
any
> > company that tried. In a field this large, a closed architecture
> > attitude will eventually cause the company great harm. Look at the
> > success of the Palm Pilot against the mighty Microsoft; I believe
> > that the biggest factor here was the developer community was 
courted
> > by Palm... And Cone may be making the same mistake by not courting
> > the likes of Paul and John who are delivering some pretty 
incredible
> > tools to us (not to mention they are giving away the help and the
> > inks they write for are half the price of Cone ink...though this 
is
> > not about price).
> >
> > Anyhow, you make a good point on forcing customers to buy the ink
> > with the software. I believe that should be the customer choice 
and
> > that most people should and would at least try the Cone ink, so 
what
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> > would be lost by the good will of allowing customer choice?
> >
> > Tom O'Connell
> >

Re: [Digital BW] inks

2002-01-05 by Julian Thomas

yeah, Nij, but as I've said thats what Bill Gates says about his OS!

Julian
----- Original Message -----
From: "Nij" <nigel@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2002 3:50 AM
Subject: RE: [Digital BW] inks


> Tom,
>
> But don't forget what an open system can achieve - new job-roles and
> specialists charging $$$ who are the only ones who have the time to look
> into the black-box and understand what all the buttons on the outside do.
Of
> course, I am thinking about colour management... and yes, I do suspect
that
> ICC/ICM is probably better than 'what was there before' (nothing???) but
it
> also STILL leaves some users wasting time and prints to get colour right
> (even when they have made substantial efforts to calibrate their system!)
>
> Piezo is still strong in it's simplicity - even if it is less than
flexible
> in allowing 'full-control' of editing ICQ profiles and so forth. The
choice
> to use third-party inks is still reasonably accesible by buying a
cartridge
> starter kit if you want ;)
>
> Just trying to play a little devil's advocate here - I have no particular
> knowledge on Cone's thought process here, and have no particular
preference
> myself as to splitting ink from software, or not. I _will_ tell you though
> that if anyone called me up with a problem printing 'other' inks through
the
> Piezo driver... and the problems were 'tonality' related, I would be
> pretty-much forced to say "Sounds like an ink problem". I'm not saying
that
> support would cease - but I am saying that a certain area of support would
> effectively become 'off-limits'. I imagine you would have similar issues
> calling Epson saying you were having problems with ICM profiles through
> their driver - they WOULD blame something  / someone else ;)
>
> I believe Piezo2 will give end users more flexibility (and therefore
perhaps
> more openness) - but also perhaps more complexity.
>
> Just some thoughts...
>
> Nij  [Looking forward to charging ?1000 per day as a 'grey management
> consultant' <grins>)
>
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: tomoc [mailto:tomoc@...]
> > Sent: 05 January 2002 02:16
> > To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] inks
> >
> >
> > Julian-
> >
> > I wasn't taking a shot at you. Actually, I agree with you completely.
> > This is a very valid criticism of Cone. 2 years ago, there might have
> > been some validity to him wanting to keep his system "pure" since it
> > was undergoing so much development and the alternatives were very
> > much unproven. To maintain this position today is closing his eyes to
> > reality. To try to "manage the market" has been a big mistake for any
> > company that tried. In a field this large, a closed architecture
> > attitude will eventually cause the company great harm. Look at the
> > success of the Palm Pilot against the mighty Microsoft; I believe
> > that the biggest factor here was the developer community was courted
> > by Palm... And Cone may be making the same mistake by not courting
> > the likes of Paul and John who are delivering some pretty incredible
> > tools to us (not to mention they are giving away the help and the
> > inks they write for are half the price of Cone ink...though this is
> > not about price).
> >
> > Anyhow, you make a good point on forcing customers to buy the ink
> > with the software. I believe that should be the customer choice and
> > that most people should and would at least try the Cone ink, so what
> > would be lost by the good will of allowing customer choice?
> >
> > Tom O'Connell
> >
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Re: [Digital BW] inks

2002-01-05 by qdfb

Mike,

What is the "dot" position?  The secret to Piezo success started with 
providing dotless prints with the Epson 3000.  Is ImagePrint as good 
as Piezo in this regard?  Maybe less of an issue with the latest 
generation of printers.
--
Quentin

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Michael Kravit" 
<michael.kravit@w...> wrote:
> Tom,
> 
> ImagePrint 4 is developed and sold by Colorbyte Software in Tampa.  
I have no affiliation other than I purchased their product for my 
Epson 10000 in my office for color presentation work. As a result of 
it supporting the Piezo Inkset, I am using it on my 7000 as well with 
the MIS FS inks.
> 
> www.colorbytesoftware.com
> 
> BTW, they just released a MAC version and are releasing a desktop 
printer version.
> 
> When I compare prints made with the Piezo inks with the Piezo 
software vs. the IP4 RIP the blacks are blacker. I also compared the 
prints made with the Piezo Software and the IP4 RIP with MIS FS inks, 
the blacks also had increased density.
> 
> I think the RIP controls the ink channels to maximize the density. 
I am at a loss of how as I am not familiar with the RIP control 
process.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Michael J. Kravit, AIA
> Architect/Photographer
> www.kravit.net/photography
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
>   From: toliwel@a... 
>   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y... 
>   Sent: Friday, January 04, 2002 7:13 PM
>   Subject: Re: [Digital BW] inks
> 
> 
>   In a message dated 1/2/02 7:50:35 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
>   michael.kravit@w... writes:
> 
>   << As you may know I strated using the ImagePrint 4 RIP. In our 
tests the 
>   blacks that I get knock the socks off of the black with Piezo 
software >>
> 
>   Mike,  I am unfamiliar with ImagePrint 4.  Who makes it?
> 
>   Also, you weren't quite clear with what ink you get those 
wonderful blacks.  
>   Was it with the peizo or MIS FS inks?  How does IP4 do this, more 
black ink?  
>   Additional ink from the CMY position inks?
> 
>   Tom Wells
>   toliwel@a...
>   towells@a...
> 
>         Yahoo! Groups Sponsor 
>               ADVERTISEMENT
>              
>        
>        
> 
>   Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, 
Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page 
is at:
> 
>   http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
>   Please follow these basic guidelines:
>   - Include your full name with your message.
>   - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
>   - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier 
messages to keep them short.
>   - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject 
header.
>   - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks 
or "flames."
>   - Complete your Yahoo profile.
>   - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the 
various resources on the homepage. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of 
Service. 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] inks

2002-01-05 by qdfb

Todd,

This question has been asked (by me) on the Piezo Pro24 group, but so 
far no answer from Jon Cone or colleagues.

The absence of any published info to the current Piezo user base is 
short sighted, in my view.  And if ImagePrint (or anyone other than 
the current Piezo developer) is developing the new software for Jon 
Cone, then that gives rise to compatability issues.  will the new 
Piezo2 product use the same dotless dither pattern, for example?  
What will the upgrade policy be?  No one knows, because we have not 
been told. 

Also, if Imageprint are developing the new product for Cone Editions, 
one wonders what the differences will be with the ImagePrint product 
iteslf, and whether ImagePrint will favour development of their own 
software over that for a third party competitor. 

I am a big fan of Piezo, and I have invested heavily in it, but these 
issues - and the continuing silence from Cone Editions - are 
beginning to concern me. 
--
Quentin

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Todd Flashner <tflash@e...> 
wrote:
> on 1/4/02 9:14 PM, Michael Kravit wrote:
> 
> > BTW, Jon Cone has hired them to design and develop the 
Piezography2 software.
> 
> Mike, any ideas as to what Piezo2 might do? Any ideas what Piezo2 
might do
> that ImagePrint doesn't?
> Todd

Re: [Digital BW] inks

2002-01-05 by Michael Kravit

Todd,

I don't really know anything about it other than what I read on the PiezoBW24 list. Some of the 7000 guys were discussing it. I would imagine that it will incorporate the excellent image adjustment, and layout tools from IP4 as well as the dither pattern. One of the really nice features of IP4 is that their dither seems to eliminate most if not all banding problems. I think the Piezo RIP was prone to banding more so than I would have liked. 

IP4 uses ICC profiles, so I would suspect that paper profiles will be easier to obtain. It allows you to name monitor profiles whack makes WYSIWYG much more accurate than with the Piezo software.

I guess though, we will have to wait until next month to see.

Regards,

Michael J. Kravit, AIA
Architect/Photographer
www.kravit.net/photography
Show quoted textHide quoted text
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Todd Flashner 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Friday, January 04, 2002 11:21 PM
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] inks


  on 1/4/02 9:14 PM, Michael Kravit wrote:

  > BTW, Jon Cone has hired them to design and develop the Piezography2 software.

  Mike, any ideas as to what Piezo2 might do? Any ideas what Piezo2 might do
  that ImagePrint doesn't?
  Todd


        Yahoo! Groups Sponsor 
              ADVERTISEMENT
             
       
       

  Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:

  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

  Please follow these basic guidelines:
  - Include your full name with your message.
  - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
  - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
  - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
  - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
  - Complete your Yahoo profile.
  - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various resources on the homepage. 




  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] inks

2002-01-05 by Michael Kravit

Quenton,

ImagePrint is dotless. It uses a proprietary dither that is similar to Piezo but seems to allow more of the image zone II and zone VIII textures to hold up during printing. Images printed match the monitor and they have better blacks.

Regards,

Michael J. Kravit, AIA
Architect/Photographer
www.kravit.net/photography
Show quoted textHide quoted text
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: qdfb 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2002 5:16 AM
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] inks


  Mike,

  What is the "dot" position?  The secret to Piezo success started with 
  providing dotless prints with the Epson 3000.  Is ImagePrint as good 
  as Piezo in this regard?  Maybe less of an issue with the latest 
  generation of printers.
  --
  Quentin

  --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Michael Kravit" 
  <michael.kravit@w...> wrote:
  > Tom,
  > 
  > ImagePrint 4 is developed and sold by Colorbyte Software in Tampa.  
  I have no affiliation other than I purchased their product for my 
  Epson 10000 in my office for color presentation work. As a result of 
  it supporting the Piezo Inkset, I am using it on my 7000 as well with 
  the MIS FS inks.
  > 
  > www.colorbytesoftware.com
  > 
  > BTW, they just released a MAC version and are releasing a desktop 
  printer version.
  > 
  > When I compare prints made with the Piezo inks with the Piezo 
  software vs. the IP4 RIP the blacks are blacker. I also compared the 
  prints made with the Piezo Software and the IP4 RIP with MIS FS inks, 
  the blacks also had increased density.
  > 
  > I think the RIP controls the ink channels to maximize the density. 
  I am at a loss of how as I am not familiar with the RIP control 
  process.
  > 
  > Regards,
  > 
  > Michael J. Kravit, AIA
  > Architect/Photographer
  > www.kravit.net/photography
  >   ----- Original Message ----- 
  >   From: toliwel@a... 
  >   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y... 
  >   Sent: Friday, January 04, 2002 7:13 PM
  >   Subject: Re: [Digital BW] inks
  > 
  > 
  >   In a message dated 1/2/02 7:50:35 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
  >   michael.kravit@w... writes:
  > 
  >   << As you may know I strated using the ImagePrint 4 RIP. In our 
  tests the 
  >   blacks that I get knock the socks off of the black with Piezo 
  software >>
  > 
  >   Mike,  I am unfamiliar with ImagePrint 4.  Who makes it?
  > 
  >   Also, you weren't quite clear with what ink you get those 
  wonderful blacks.  
  >   Was it with the peizo or MIS FS inks?  How does IP4 do this, more 
  black ink?  
  >   Additional ink from the CMY position inks?
  > 
  >   Tom Wells
  >   toliwel@a...
  >   towells@a...
  > 
  >         Yahoo! Groups Sponsor 
  >               ADVERTISEMENT
  >              
  >        
  >        
  > 
  >   Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, 
  Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page 
  is at:
  > 
  >   http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
  > 
  >   Please follow these basic guidelines:
  >   - Include your full name with your message.
  >   - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
  >   - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier 
  messages to keep them short.
  >   - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject 
  header.
  >   - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks 
  or "flames."
  >   - Complete your Yahoo profile.
  >   - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the 
  various resources on the homepage. 
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > 
  >   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of 
  Service. 
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


  Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:

  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

  Please follow these basic guidelines:
  - Include your full name with your message.
  - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
  - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
  - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
  - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
  - Complete your Yahoo profile.
  - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various resources on the homepage. 




  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Move to quarantaine

This moves the raw source file on disk only. The archive index is not changed automatically, so you still need to run a manual refresh afterward.