Digital BW, The Print

> I am planning to shoot with my Canon D-30, which will give me a
> 8-bit,
> 17 meg file if I save it as a raw file in the camera.   If needed, I
> will use Genuine Fractals to interpolate the file size up.  Does any
> one see a problem with this approach?
> 
> Does any one shoot digitally or are most people still shooting film?
> 
> How does a digital image compare to a scanned neg. in print quality?
> 
>  Is Genuine Fractals the best  way interpolate a digital file?
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
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> 
> I am planning to shoot with my Canon D-30, which will give me a
> 8-bit,
> 17 meg file if I save it as a raw file in the camera.   If needed, I
> will use Genuine Fractals to interpolate the file size up.  Does any
> one see a problem with this approach?
> 
> Does any one shoot digitally or are most people still shooting film?
> 
> How does a digital image compare to a scanned neg. in print quality?
> 
>  Is Genuine Fractals the best  way interpolate a digital file?
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
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  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: steven0356 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2002 10:34 AM
  Subject: [Digital BW] Shooting Digitally


  I am planning to shoot with my Canon D-30, which will give me a
  8-bit,  
  17 meg file if I save it as a raw file in the camera.   If needed, I 
  will use Genuine Fractals to interpolate the file size up.  Does any 
  one see a problem with this approach?

  Does any one shoot digitally or are most people still shooting film? 

  How does a digital image compare to a scanned neg. in print quality?

  Is Genuine Fractals the best  way interpolate a digital file?




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  Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> 
> I think you are are going in the right direction. I will tell you that I have found that in some instances Photoshop does as good if not better at rezzing (I like that pseudo word) up the files.
> 
> Mike
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: steven0356
>   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
>   Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2002 10:34 AM
>   Subject: [Digital BW] Shooting Digitally
> 
>   I am planning to shoot with my Canon D-30, which will give me a
>   8-bit,
>   17 meg file if I save it as a raw file in the camera.   If needed, I
>   will use Genuine Fractals to interpolate the file size up.  Does any
>   one see a problem with this approach?
> 
>   Does any one shoot digitally or are most people still shooting film?
> 
>   How does a digital image compare to a scanned neg. in print quality?
> 
>   Is Genuine Fractals the best  way interpolate a digital file?
> 
>         Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>               ADVERTISEMENT
> 
> 
> 
> 
>   Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
>   http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
>   Please follow these basic guidelines:
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>   - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
>   - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
>   - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
>   - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
>   - Complete your Yahoo profile.
>   - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various resources on the homepage.
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>   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
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  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Jerry Olson 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2002 8:52 PM
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Shooting Digitally



  > But, with that said, I will tell you that so far I am impressed. My RAW files once converted become 34 meg tif files. They are almost adequate for 11x14 prints. 

  ALMOST good enough?!!! People are printing spectacular 13x19 images from
  this camera AND the Canon D-30!

  Some feel that they are fine, but I am anal but resolution. I use GF to
  rez them up to print 16x20. I have found that GF is good, but not all
  that it is cracked up to be. You need a perfectly sharp image to start
  with in order to get good results.

  I have a closeup of my cat's face that is 13x19 and is every bit as
  sharp as scanned velvia film!

  You MUST sharpen ALL digital images, and those taken with under $5000
  need a LOT of sharpening. They will take it with no problems. How do you
  sharpen your images?

  > The coolest part of digital shooting that I have found is sticking an 87 filter in front of the lens and getting digital infrared. 

  That sounds WONDERFUL! A grainless Infrared photograph! Does this work
  on All digital cameras? Or only those that focus their flash with
  infrared light?

  Would the Canon D30 do it? 

  How does that work? wouldn't you just get a very red photo? 

  Jerry


  Digital prints made from digital files are very nice. I am getting ready
  to do a project whereby I shoot the same scene in 4x5 (T-Max 100), 6x6
  (T-Max 100) and digital on the D1x. I will be scanning the film at 360
  dpi at 16x20 and then printing the images at the same 16x20 size. What
  we are looking for is the ability of the digital camera to produce
  smooth rich tonally competent images and see how they compare with the
  film versions.
  > 
  > I think you are are going in the right direction. I will tell you that I have found that in some instances Photoshop does as good if not better at rezzing (I like that pseudo word) up the files.
  > 
  > Mike
  >   ----- Original Message -----
  >   From: steven0356
  >   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  >   Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2002 10:34 AM
  >   Subject: [Digital BW] Shooting Digitally
  > 
  >   I am planning to shoot with my Canon D-30, which will give me a
  >   8-bit,
  >   17 meg file if I save it as a raw file in the camera.   If needed, I
  >   will use Genuine Fractals to interpolate the file size up.  Does any
  >   one see a problem with this approach?
  > 
  >   Does any one shoot digitally or are most people still shooting film?
  > 
  >   How does a digital image compare to a scanned neg. in print quality?
  > 
  >   Is Genuine Fractals the best  way interpolate a digital file?
  > 
  >         Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
  >               ADVERTISEMENT
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > 
  >   Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
  > 
  >   http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
  > 
  >   Please follow these basic guidelines:
  >   - Include your full name with your message.
  >   - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
  >   - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
  >   - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
  >   - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
  >   - Complete your Yahoo profile.
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  > 
  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
  > 
  > 
  > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
  > 
  > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
  > 
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  > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various resources on the homepage.
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: scho_2000 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2002 9:20 PM
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Shooting Digitally


  --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Jerry Olson 
  <jerryolson@r...> wrote:

  > The coolest part of digital shooting that I have found is sticking 
  an 87 filter in front of the lens and getting digital infrared. 
  > 
  > That sounds WONDERFUL! A grainless Infrared photograph! 
  Does this work
  > on All digital cameras? Or only those that focus their flash with
  > infrared light?
  > 
  > Would the Canon D30 do it? 
  > 
  > How does that work? wouldn't you just get a very red photo? 

  Jerry,

  The D30 will do infrared, but the metering tends to underexpose 
  by about 3-4 stops, so you have to use manual exposure (about 
  3-4 sec at f/11, ISO 100 in bright sun is a good starting point).  
  There are some example IR images taken with the D30 here:
  <http://www.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1019&mess
  age=1755483> 

  Carl



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Kravit [mailto:michael.kravit@worldnet.att.net]
Sent: giovedì 17 gennaio 2002 01.33
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Shooting Digitally


Steven,

I have been doing a bit of digital shooting with my Nikon D1x. I have not
had it lond and only used it a couple of times. I am primarily a 4x5 shooter
and breaking old habits is tough.

But, with that said, I will tell you that so far I am impressed. My RAW
files once converted become 34 meg tif files. They are almost adequate for
11x14 prints. Some feel that they are fine, but I am anal but resolution. I
use GF to rez them up to print 16x20. I have found that GF is good, but not
all that it is cracked up to be. You need a perfectly sharp image to start
with in order to get good results.

The coolest part of digital shooting that I have found is sticking an 87
filter in front of the lens and getting digital infrared. Digital prints
made from digital files are very nice. I am getting ready to do a project
whereby I shoot the same scene in 4x5 (T-Max 100), 6x6 (T-Max 100) and
digital on the D1x. I will be scanning the film at 360 dpi at 16x20 and then
printing the images at the same 16x20 size. What we are looking for is the
ability of the digital camera to produce smooth rich tonally competent
images and see how they compare with the film versions.

I think you are are going in the right direction. I will tell you that I
have found that in some instances Photoshop does as good if not better at
rezzing (I like that pseudo word) up the files.

Mike
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: steven0356 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2002 10:34 AM
  Subject: [Digital BW] Shooting Digitally


  I am planning to shoot with my Canon D-30, which will give me a
  8-bit,  
  17 meg file if I save it as a raw file in the camera.   If needed, I 
  will use Genuine Fractals to interpolate the file size up.  Does any 
  one see a problem with this approach?

  Does any one shoot digitally or are most people still shooting film? 

  How does a digital image compare to a scanned neg. in print quality?

  Is Genuine Fractals the best  way interpolate a digital file?




        Yahoo! Groups Sponsor 
              ADVERTISEMENT
             
       
       

  Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:

  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint> 

  Please follow these basic guidelines:
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them short.
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> 
> Jerry,
> 
> Like I said, I am new to digital shooting. Actually, I have not owned a 35mm camera in a couple of years.  I had no idea that digital camera images needed that much sharpening. How much do you sharpen. I think that I was doing it much the way I do it with film scans. As little as possible or none at all.
> 
> Infrared is cool. You shoot it with the 87 filter and then once downloaded you convert to grayscale with channel mixer just like a color scan to grayscale. You can also set the camera to B/W mode and then the infrared previews look incredible and not red.
> 
> >From what I read the D30 will do it also.
> 
> I bought an 4x4 87 polyester filter from Lee along with a frame. It fits my Lee filter holder.
> 
> Mike
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: Jerry Olson
>   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
>   Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2002 8:52 PM
>   Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Shooting Digitally
> 
>   > But, with that said, I will tell you that so far I am impressed. My RAW files once converted become 34 meg tif files. They are almost adequate for 11x14 prints.
> 
>   ALMOST good enough?!!! People are printing spectacular 13x19 images from
>   this camera AND the Canon D-30!
> 
>   Some feel that they are fine, but I am anal but resolution. I use GF to
>   rez them up to print 16x20. I have found that GF is good, but not all
>   that it is cracked up to be. You need a perfectly sharp image to start
>   with in order to get good results.
> 
>   I have a closeup of my cat's face that is 13x19 and is every bit as
>   sharp as scanned velvia film!
> 
>   You MUST sharpen ALL digital images, and those taken with under $5000
>   need a LOT of sharpening. They will take it with no problems. How do you
>   sharpen your images?
> 
>   > The coolest part of digital shooting that I have found is sticking an 87 filter in front of the lens and getting digital infrared.
> 
>   That sounds WONDERFUL! A grainless Infrared photograph! Does this work
>   on All digital cameras? Or only those that focus their flash with
>   infrared light?
> 
>   Would the Canon D30 do it?
> 
>   How does that work? wouldn't you just get a very red photo?
> 
>   Jerry
> 
>   Digital prints made from digital files are very nice. I am getting ready
>   to do a project whereby I shoot the same scene in 4x5 (T-Max 100), 6x6
>   (T-Max 100) and digital on the D1x. I will be scanning the film at 360
>   dpi at 16x20 and then printing the images at the same 16x20 size. What
>   we are looking for is the ability of the digital camera to produce
>   smooth rich tonally competent images and see how they compare with the
>   film versions.
>   >
>   > I think you are are going in the right direction. I will tell you that I have found that in some instances Photoshop does as good if not better at rezzing (I like that pseudo word) up the files.
>   >
>   > Mike
>   >   ----- Original Message -----
>   >   From: steven0356
>   >   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
>   >   Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2002 10:34 AM
>   >   Subject: [Digital BW] Shooting Digitally
>   >
>   >   I am planning to shoot with my Canon D-30, which will give me a
>   >   8-bit,
>   >   17 meg file if I save it as a raw file in the camera.   If needed, I
>   >   will use Genuine Fractals to interpolate the file size up.  Does any
>   >   one see a problem with this approach?
>   >
>   >   Does any one shoot digitally or are most people still shooting film?
>   >
>   >   How does a digital image compare to a scanned neg. in print quality?
>   >
>   >   Is Genuine Fractals the best  way interpolate a digital file?
>   >
>   >         Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>   >               ADVERTISEMENT
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >   Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>   >
>   >   http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>   >
>   >   Please follow these basic guidelines:
>   >   - Include your full name with your message.
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>   >   - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
>   >   - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
>   >   - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
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>   >
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>   >
>   > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>   >
>   >
>   > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
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> 
> 
> 
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> 
> > He couldn't tell the difference, except the inkjet print is smoother, as
> > digital is totally grainless.
> 
> Hi Jerry,
> 
> Digital does have "grain"...but it's called pixelation.  If you blow it up
> enough, you'll surely see it!
> 
> Austin
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
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On Thursday 17 Jan 2002 4:29 pm, Jerry Olson wrote:
> Carl, The search engine isn't working, do you know what page those
> images are on?
>
> Once you've taken a photo with the red filter, I assume you'd have a
> very red photo. How do you change it to Black and white infrared?
>
> Is an 87 filter the opaque one, or just a very deep red?
>
> Thanks
>
> Jerry
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
> other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
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>
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From: Jerry Olson <jerryolson@...>
Reply-To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 10:29:51 -0600
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Shooting Digitally


Carl, The search engine isn't working, do you know what page those
images are on?

Once you've taken a photo with the red filter, I assume you'd have a
very red photo. How do you change it to Black and white infrared?

Is an 87 filter the opaque one, or just a very deep red?

Thanks

Jerry

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> 
> This test image was shot at ISO 100, RAW mode, mirror lock-up enabled, long
> exposure noise reduction ON, manual exposure mode, 3 sec at f/11.  The
> filter was a Hoya R72 (Wratten 89B) which is a deep red filter that leaks a
> little visible light as well as passing all of the near infrared.  The
> autoleveled RGB image shows this mixture of visible and infrared light.  I
> either convert to greyscale using the lightness channel in LAB mode or use
> the channel mixer.
> 
> Carl
>

> Yes, but not in a 13x19 image from a D-30 camera!
>
> Jerry
>
>
>
>
> Austin Franklin wrote:
> >
> > > He couldn't tell the difference, except the inkjet print is
> smoother, as
> > > digital is totally grainless.
> >
> > Hi Jerry,
> >
> > Digital does have "grain"...but it's called pixelation.  If you
> blow it up
> > enough, you'll surely see it!
> >
> > Austin
>
>

> > Also the D30 pixels are much larger than
> > most other camera's pixels.
> 
> That really has nothing to do with camera resolution.  Whether the pixels
> are 1" square of 5u square, a 3M element sensor IS a 3M element sensor.  The
> advantage the larger pixels give is less EMI (Electro Magnetic Interference)
> and therefore a cleaner image with less noise.
> 
> Austin

> As I've pointed out, you only get ~100 PPI from a D-30 for a 13x19 image.
> Interpolation is pretty much required to visually eliminate pixelation...but
> that doesn't mean the original image doesn't have it!
> 
> Technically, you could interpolate any sized image to get any sized
> enlargement and visually eliminate pixelation...but the issue with
> interpolation is it "makes up" data where none existed...and because the
> data isn't there in the first place, it never will be.
> 
> Austin
> 
> > Yes, but not in a 13x19 image from a D-30 camera!
> >
> > Jerry
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Austin Franklin wrote:
> > >
> > > > He couldn't tell the difference, except the inkjet print is
> > smoother, as
> > > > digital is totally grainless.
> > >
> > > Hi Jerry,
> > >
> > > Digital does have "grain"...but it's called pixelation.  If you
> > blow it up
> > > enough, you'll surely see it!
> > >
> > > Austin
> >
> >
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
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> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

> 
> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
> 
> > > Also the D30 pixels are much larger than
> > > most other camera's pixels.
> > 
> > That really has nothing to do with camera resolution.  Whether 
> the pixels
> > are 1" square of 5u square, a 3M element sensor IS a 3M element 
> sensor.  The
> > advantage the larger pixels give is less EMI (Electro Magnetic 
> Interference)
> > and therefore a cleaner image with less noise.
> > 
> > Austin

> > 
> > The pixel size may have little to do with Resolution, but
> > it sure is a Major factor in overall image Quality.
> 
> Hi Alex,
> 
> Isn't that what "therefore a cleaner image with less noise" means?
> 
> Austin
> 
> > 
> > <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
> > 
> > > > Also the D30 pixels are much larger than
> > > > most other camera's pixels.
> > > 
> > > That really has nothing to do with camera resolution.  Whether 
> > the pixels
> > > are 1" square of 5u square, a 3M element sensor IS a 3M element 
> > sensor.  The
> > > advantage the larger pixels give is less EMI (Electro Magnetic 
> > Interference)
> > > and therefore a cleaner image with less noise.
> > > 
> > > Austin

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Alessandro Pardi 
  To: 'DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com' 
  Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2002 5:19 AM
  Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Shooting Digitally


  Michael,

  I've just ordered a Mamiya 7 II with 65mm, my first go at medium format, and
  am therefore very curious about your project of comparing medium and large
  format scans to the current state of the art in digital (the only thing I
  know is that a D1x is WAY more expensive than a MF body and scanner). Please
  share your results with us.

  Thanks,
  Alessandro Pardi

  -----Original Message-----
  From: Michael Kravit [mailto:michael.kravit@...]
  Sent: giovedì 17 gennaio 2002 01.33
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Shooting Digitally


  Steven,

  I have been doing a bit of digital shooting with my Nikon D1x. I have not
  had it lond and only used it a couple of times. I am primarily a 4x5 shooter
  and breaking old habits is tough.

  But, with that said, I will tell you that so far I am impressed. My RAW
  files once converted become 34 meg tif files. They are almost adequate for
  11x14 prints. Some feel that they are fine, but I am anal but resolution. I
  use GF to rez them up to print 16x20. I have found that GF is good, but not
  all that it is cracked up to be. You need a perfectly sharp image to start
  with in order to get good results.

  The coolest part of digital shooting that I have found is sticking an 87
  filter in front of the lens and getting digital infrared. Digital prints
  made from digital files are very nice. I am getting ready to do a project
  whereby I shoot the same scene in 4x5 (T-Max 100), 6x6 (T-Max 100) and
  digital on the D1x. I will be scanning the film at 360 dpi at 16x20 and then
  printing the images at the same 16x20 size. What we are looking for is the
  ability of the digital camera to produce smooth rich tonally competent
  images and see how they compare with the film versions.

  I think you are are going in the right direction. I will tell you that I
  have found that in some instances Photoshop does as good if not better at
  rezzing (I like that pseudo word) up the files.

  Mike
    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: steven0356 
    To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
    Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2002 10:34 AM
    Subject: [Digital BW] Shooting Digitally


    I am planning to shoot with my Canon D-30, which will give me a
    8-bit,  
    17 meg file if I save it as a raw file in the camera.   If needed, I 
    will use Genuine Fractals to interpolate the file size up.  Does any 
    one see a problem with this approach?

    Does any one shoot digitally or are most people still shooting film? 

    How does a digital image compare to a scanned neg. in print quality?

    Is Genuine Fractals the best  way interpolate a digital file?




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  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Pics4U@... 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2002 7:28 AM
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Shooting Digitally


  On 16 Jan 2002, at 23:12, Michael Kravit wrote:

  > Carl, that makes sense. On my D1x I start at f/16 for 6 seconds at
  > EI-125 in bright sunlight.
  > 
  > Mike

  Mike, why f/16 for such a long exposure? Why not 
  something more sensible like f/8 at 1 second or so?  IMHO 
  and based on previous experience, movement at such long 
  exposures outweighs any depth of field gain. I have been 
  using ISO 400 on my D1X and have been quite satisfied 
  with the results. To add a bit of grain like traditional IR film, 
  I've even used ISO 1600/3200.

  Greg


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  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Jerry Olson 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2002 10:33 AM
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Shooting Digitally


  Mike, the D30 doesn't have a black and white mode.  Is the 87 filter
  opaque, or deep red?

  I use Kai's Power Tools "Equalizer" sharpen tool from version 6. Use the
  "Boundary sharpen mode", not the equalizer mode. Very quick and easy to
  do. there are only 2 sliders and you can see the results in a very large
  magnified window to see exactly how far to sharpen without getting
  artifacts. You will be amazed at how much you can sharpen the D30 or Dx
  images before any artifacts appear.

  Jerry





  Michael Kravit wrote:
  > 
  > Jerry,
  > 
  > Like I said, I am new to digital shooting. Actually, I have not owned a 35mm camera in a couple of years.  I had no idea that digital camera images needed that much sharpening. How much do you sharpen. I think that I was doing it much the way I do it with film scans. As little as possible or none at all.
  > 
  > Infrared is cool. You shoot it with the 87 filter and then once downloaded you convert to grayscale with channel mixer just like a color scan to grayscale. You can also set the camera to B/W mode and then the infrared previews look incredible and not red.
  > 
  > >From what I read the D30 will do it also.
  > 
  > I bought an 4x4 87 polyester filter from Lee along with a frame. It fits my Lee filter holder.
  > 
  > Mike
  >   ----- Original Message -----
  >   From: Jerry Olson
  >   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  >   Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2002 8:52 PM
  >   Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Shooting Digitally
  > 
  >   > But, with that said, I will tell you that so far I am impressed. My RAW files once converted become 34 meg tif files. They are almost adequate for 11x14 prints.
  > 
  >   ALMOST good enough?!!! People are printing spectacular 13x19 images from
  >   this camera AND the Canon D-30!
  > 
  >   Some feel that they are fine, but I am anal but resolution. I use GF to
  >   rez them up to print 16x20. I have found that GF is good, but not all
  >   that it is cracked up to be. You need a perfectly sharp image to start
  >   with in order to get good results.
  > 
  >   I have a closeup of my cat's face that is 13x19 and is every bit as
  >   sharp as scanned velvia film!
  > 
  >   You MUST sharpen ALL digital images, and those taken with under $5000
  >   need a LOT of sharpening. They will take it with no problems. How do you
  >   sharpen your images?
  > 
  >   > The coolest part of digital shooting that I have found is sticking an 87 filter in front of the lens and getting digital infrared.
  > 
  >   That sounds WONDERFUL! A grainless Infrared photograph! Does this work
  >   on All digital cameras? Or only those that focus their flash with
  >   infrared light?
  > 
  >   Would the Canon D30 do it?
  > 
  >   How does that work? wouldn't you just get a very red photo?
  > 
  >   Jerry
  > 
  >   Digital prints made from digital files are very nice. I am getting ready
  >   to do a project whereby I shoot the same scene in 4x5 (T-Max 100), 6x6
  >   (T-Max 100) and digital on the D1x. I will be scanning the film at 360
  >   dpi at 16x20 and then printing the images at the same 16x20 size. What
  >   we are looking for is the ability of the digital camera to produce
  >   smooth rich tonally competent images and see how they compare with the
  >   film versions.
  >   >
  >   > I think you are are going in the right direction. I will tell you that I have found that in some instances Photoshop does as good if not better at rezzing (I like that pseudo word) up the files.
  >   >
  >   > Mike
  >   >   ----- Original Message -----
  >   >   From: steven0356
  >   >   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  >   >   Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2002 10:34 AM
  >   >   Subject: [Digital BW] Shooting Digitally
  >   >
  >   >   I am planning to shoot with my Canon D-30, which will give me a
  >   >   8-bit,
  >   >   17 meg file if I save it as a raw file in the camera.   If needed, I
  >   >   will use Genuine Fractals to interpolate the file size up.  Does any
  >   >   one see a problem with this approach?
  >   >
  >   >   Does any one shoot digitally or are most people still shooting film?
  >   >
  >   >   How does a digital image compare to a scanned neg. in print quality?
  >   >
  >   >   Is Genuine Fractals the best  way interpolate a digital file?
  >   >
  >   >         Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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  >   >   Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Austin Franklin 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2002 6:13 PM
  Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Shooting Digitally



  Hi Mike,

  > I think tha visually you are seeing an image that looks like
  > film, but in reality the camera would need to approach 16
  > megapixels to resolve the finest films today.

  By my calculations, it's just under 100M pixels, but certainly much less
  will give you exceptional results, as seen by the very low res digital
  cameras of today, like the D-30/D1 etc.  Remember, that one shot digital
  cameras have 25% red, 25% blue and 50% green sensors...so the color
  information is interpolated...so because a sensor is 16M elements, doesn't
  mean you get 16M PIXELS of information...without making some of it up ;-)

  Austin


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> Austin,
>
> With all due respect, a number of respected photo publications
> have stated publicly that the resolution of a digital capture
> chip must reach 16 megapixels before it reaches the ability of a
> fine grained film.  I am not a video engineer and quite honestly
> don't have enough information to intelligently debate the issue.
> I can not say whether you are right or wrong, but would like to
> read more on the subject at some pint in the future.
>
> 100 Megapixels sounds bit extreme, but then again I don't know
> enough to say either way.
>
> Thanks for the info.
>
> Mike
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: Austin Franklin
>   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
>   Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2002 6:13 PM
>   Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Shooting Digitally
>
>
>
>   Hi Mike,
>
>   > I think tha visually you are seeing an image that looks like
>   > film, but in reality the camera would need to approach 16
>   > megapixels to resolve the finest films today.
>
>   By my calculations, it's just under 100M pixels, but certainly much less
>   will give you exceptional results, as seen by the very low res digital
>   cameras of today, like the D-30/D1 etc.  Remember, that one shot digital
>   cameras have 25% red, 25% blue and 50% green sensors...so the color
>   information is interpolated...so because a sensor is 16M
> elements, doesn't
>   mean you get 16M PIXELS of information...without making some of
> it up ;-)
>
>   Austin
>

> How do you get adequate DOF in a 35mm digital camera at f/8 w/o the
> use of movements?  As a LF shooter, I get into the near/far
> relationships of DOF and find that f/8 does not come close to giving
> me what I need.
> 
> Movement? If the wind is blowing, I am at home sleeping. 
> 
> Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: Carl Schofield [mailto:scho@...] 
Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2002 10:54 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Shooting Digitally
 
Jerry, Here are links to the images.
Out of camera, no adjustments:
http://homepage.mac.com/scho/D30IR/CRW_0675.jpg
RGB mode, autolevels:
http://homepage.mac.com/scho/D30IR/CRW_0675_2.jpg
Greyscale converted:
http://homepage.mac.com/scho/D30IR/CRW_0675g.jpg

This test image was shot at ISO 100, RAW mode, mirror lock-up enabled,
long
exposure noise reduction ON, manual exposure mode, 3 sec at f/11.  The
filter was a Hoya R72 (Wratten 89B) which is a deep red filter that
leaks a
little visible light as well as passing all of the near infrared.  The
autoleveled RGB image shows this mixture of visible and infrared light.
I
either convert to greyscale using the lightness channel in LAB mode or
use
the channel mixer.

Carl

From: Jerry Olson <jerryolson@...>
Reply-To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 10:29:51 -0600
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Shooting Digitally


Carl, The search engine isn't working, do you know what page those
images are on?

Once you've taken a photo with the red filter, I assume you'd have a
very red photo. How do you change it to Black and white infrared?

Is an 87 filter the opaque one, or just a very deep red?

Thanks

Jerry

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On Friday 18 Jan 2002 12:44 am, Michael Kravit wrote:
> Jerry,
>
> I think tha visually you are seeing an image that looks like film, but in
> reality the camera would need to approach 16 megapixels to resolve the
> finest films today.
>
> For example, I recently shot an image in a Charleston Cemetary on 4x5 T-Max
> 100. In the distance, oh perhaps 2 miles away is what looks like a 6 story
> office building. I can zoom in on my scan and see a guy sitting at his desk
> on the top floor.
>
> Try that with a digital D30 or D1x.
>
> Mike

> Just thought I'd mention, there is a guy doing nice infrared work with a
> Canon G1 and a Heliopan filter
>  
> http://www.photo.net/photodb/folder?folder_id=145900
>  
> --- Patrick
>  
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Kravit" <michael.kravit@...>
>
> I found a pretty basic but fairly well written article comparing film to
ccd. It seem that the author is saying that although
> one would need to have 100M pixels to achieve the resolving power of
Kodachrome, there are many other factors that
> play into a digital cameras ability to produce images that are comprable
to film.

> > Movement? If the wind is blowing, I am at home sleeping. 
> > 
> > Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: mkravit [mailto:michael.kravit@...]
Sent: venerdì 18 gennaio 2002 18.39
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Shooting Digitally


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Derek Clarke <derek_c@c...> 
wrote:
> What dpi did you scan that 4x5 at?

4,000 dpi



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> view (approximately) as a 50 mm lense in a 35mm cam. hense the need 
> for some movements on the 4x5.  larry pirrone > 
> > > Movement? If the wind is blowing, I am at home sleeping. 
> > > 
> > > Mike

> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "mkravit" 
> <michael.kravit@w...> wrote:
 
> why would you need 4000 dpi? i calculate you could make a 66"x53" 
> print from a file that size. do you have large iris prints made? if 
> so they must be awsome! larry

On Friday 18 Jan 2002 5:39 pm, mkravit wrote:
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Derek Clarke <derek_c@c...>
>
> wrote:
> > What dpi did you scan that 4x5 at?
>
> 4,000 dpi
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
> other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
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> resources on the homepage.
>
>
>
>
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> > for some movements on the 4x5.  larry pirrone > 
> > > > Movement? If the wind is blowing, I am at home sleeping. 
> > > > 
> > > > Mike

> 
> Jerry,
> 
> I think tha visually you are seeing an image that looks like film, but in reality the camera would need to approach 16 megapixels to resolve the finest films today.
> 
> For example, I recently shot an image in a Charleston Cemetary on 4x5 T-Max 100. In the distance, oh perhaps 2 miles away is what looks like a 6 story office building. I can zoom in on my scan and see a guy sitting at his desk on the top floor.
> 
> Try that with a digital D30 or D1x.
> 
> Mike
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
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> 
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> 
> Larry,
> 
> I am not sure what the point is?
> 
> BTW, the new Canon digital to be released in Orlando next month is
> said to be a 6 megapixel camera with a 1:1 chip. So the focal length
> of a 50mm lens is the same whether it is digital or 35mm film.
> 
> Mike
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "riskdr8138"
> <L.PIRRONE@A...> wrote:
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Pics4U@e... wrote:
> > > Whenever I shoot something that requires that kind of DOF, I'm
> > > normally shooting wide angle and the DOF just takes care of
> itself.
> > > Besides, I'm a believer is staying away from the first two and
> last
> > two
> > > stops of any lens. IMHO? The extra sharpness of a middle upper
> > > f/stop such as f/8 or f/11 seems to give the results I need.
> > >
> > > I'm also primarily a people shooter so such things as 6 second
> > > shutter speeds aren't possible in many situations.
> > >
> > > Greg
> > >
> > > > How do you get adequate DOF in a 35mm digital camera at f/8 w/o
> > the
> > > > use of movements?  As a LF shooter, I get into the near/far
> > > > relationships of DOF and find that f/8 does not come close to
> > giving
> > > > me what I need.
> >
> > the lenses in a digital camera are of a much shorter focal length
> > than in a 35 mm camera for the same angle of view. f8 in these
> lenses
> > has much greater depth of field than in a 35mm camera. the same
> > principal holds true for the 4x5. a 150mm lense has the same angle
> of
> > view (approximately) as a 50 mm lense in a 35mm cam. hense the need
> > for some movements on the 4x5.  larry pirrone >
> > > > Movement? If the wind is blowing, I am at home sleeping.
> > > >
> > > > Mike
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
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From: Jerry Olson <jerryolson@...>
Reply-To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2002 19:47:04 -0600
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Shooting Digitally


To all who are doing infrared with your digital cameras, Which filters
are you using?  there are so many. 87, 88, 89, 29A, etc. Are you using
the opaque ones or the red ones?

Jerry

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Jerry Olson 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Friday, January 18, 2002 7:47 PM
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Shooting Digitally


  To all who are doing infrared with your digital cameras, Which filters
  are you using?  there are so many. 87, 88, 89, 29A, etc. Are you using
  the opaque ones or the red ones? 

  Jerry

  Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tim Spragens [mailto:t.spragens@...]
> Sent: Saturday, January 19, 2002 1:32 PM
> To: dIgitalblackandwhitetheprint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Shooting Digitally, for Austin
>
>
> Austin,
>
> can you explain why more companies aren't using CMYK filters instead
> of RGBG for single-chip cameras? Seems like there would be less light
> loss, and it would avoid the redundant G.
>
> Tim
>
>
> > The other issue that comes into play, is these one shot cameras aren't
> > really true pixels...they interpolate the color data, which makes them
> > really require 4x the number of sensors to give you TRUE color data.
> --
> Tim Spragens
> http://www.borderless-photos.com
> &
> http://www.borderless-photos.de

> Hi Tim,
> 
> I haven't really thought about that.  Obviously, you'd have to do color
> space conversion.  I remember a web article that outlined using CMYK, but it
> really doesn't give any detailed explanation:
> 
> http://www.digitalcameras.com/howTheyWork2.asp
> 
> I wish I knew more...and it is an interesting question.  I have a friend who
> is designing some consumer level digicams, and I'm sure he has people who
> work with him who could possibly answer that question, so I'll ask him.
> 
> If you find out anything, I'd like to know!  What I would do, is make a
> filter/lense that is a quad prism that takes ALL the info for that 2x2 area
> and gives it to each sensor...that way there is NO interpolating, and you
> have TRUE color information...but then you get 1/4th the number of "pixels"
> (I use that term loosely here ;-) that the cameras that use interpolation,
> give you.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Austin
> 
> 
> > http://www.borderless-photos.de

> Hi Harvey,
> 
> just one sensor that has an ND sensor. Seems to me it might allow 
> better white point, though the only one that I've heard of is a CMY, 
> not CMYK.
> 
> Tim
> 
> 
> > I think you could possible use CMY but not K.  How can one collect
> > 'black' with a sensor?  You're thinking in 4 color ink reproduction
> > and not light waves.  And I think the reason they use RGB is that it's
> > tranmissive and not reflective (would that be additive and not
> > subtractive?)....
> --

On Saturday 19 Jan 2002 6:31 pm, Tim Spragens wrote:
> Austin,
>
> can you explain why more companies aren't using CMYK filters instead
> of RGBG for single-chip cameras? Seems like there would be less light
> loss, and it would avoid the redundant G.
>
> Tim
>
> > The other issue that comes into play, is these one shot cameras aren't
> > really true pixels...they interpolate the color data, which makes them
> > really require 4x the number of sensors to give you TRUE color data.

On Saturday 19 Jan 2002 6:53 pm, Austin Franklin wrote:
> Hi Tim,
>
> I haven't really thought about that.  Obviously, you'd have to do color
> space conversion.  I remember a web article that outlined using CMYK, but
> it really doesn't give any detailed explanation:
>
> http://www.digitalcameras.com/howTheyWork2.asp
>
> I wish I knew more...and it is an interesting question.  I have a friend
> who is designing some consumer level digicams, and I'm sure he has people
> who work with him who could possibly answer that question, so I'll ask him.
>
> If you find out anything, I'd like to know!  What I would do, is make a
> filter/lense that is a quad prism that takes ALL the info for that 2x2 area
> and gives it to each sensor...that way there is NO interpolating, and you
> have TRUE color information...but then you get 1/4th the number of "pixels"
> (I use that term loosely here ;-) that the cameras that use interpolation,
> give you.
>
> Regards,
>
> Austin
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Tim Spragens [mailto:t.spragens@...]
> > Sent: Saturday, January 19, 2002 1:32 PM
> > To: dIgitalblackandwhitetheprint@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Shooting Digitally, for Austin
> >
> >
> > Austin,
> >
> > can you explain why more companies aren't using CMYK filters instead
> > of RGBG for single-chip cameras? Seems like there would be less light
> > loss, and it would avoid the redundant G.
> >
> > Tim
> >
> > > The other issue that comes into play, is these one shot cameras aren't
> > > really true pixels...they interpolate the color data, which makes them
> > > really require 4x the number of sensors to give you TRUE color data.
> >
> > --
> > Tim Spragens
> > http://www.borderless-photos.com
> > &
> > http://www.borderless-photos.de
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
> other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
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> 
> On 16 Jan 2002, at 23:12, Michael Kravit wrote:
> 
> > Carl, that makes sense. On my D1x I start at f/16 for 6 seconds at
> > EI-125 in bright sunlight.
> >
> > Mike
> 
> Mike, why f/16 for such a long exposure? Why not
> something more sensible like f/8 at 1 second or so?  IMHO
> and based on previous experience, movement at such long
> exposures outweighs any depth of field gain. I have been
> using ISO 400 on my D1X and have been quite satisfied
> with the results. To add a bit of grain like traditional IR film,
> I've even used ISO 1600/3200.
> 
> Greg
> 
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> 
> > I can hardly wait to try the infrared digital route. But tell me why on
> > earth would you want to add grain to your infrared image? I've been
> > hoping for years to find an infrared film with NO grain.
> >
> > I consider the grain a serious defect in Kodak infrared film. That's why
> > I never use it.
> 
> On the other hand, I love the infrared grain, as well as the highlight flare
> from the lack of an antihaltion layer. It's one of those qualities that you
> either love or hate.
> 
> 
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