Re: [Digital BW] R800-1800 Eboni -- Comparison of LensWork split-tone to Photo Rag and other papers.
2007-05-23 by Michael King
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2007-05-23 by Michael King
Paul as always thanks for sharing, very interesting and thought provoking. Mike On 23/05/07, Paul Roark <paul.roark@...> wrote: > > In my continuing experimentation with this 100%, multi-channel Eboni > carbon > printing approach, I've posted some graphs that compare the LensWork warm > split-tone tonal distribution with what Eboni gives on Photo Rag and some > other papers. See page 10 of http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/R1800.pdf > > Paul > > www.PaulRoark.com <http://www.paulroark.com/> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2007-05-23 by Paul Roark
In my continuing experimentation with this 100%, multi-channel Eboni carbon printing approach, I've posted some graphs that compare the LensWork warm split-tone tonal distribution with what Eboni gives on Photo Rag and some other papers. See page 10 of http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/R1800.pdf Paul www.PaulRoark.com <http://www.paulroark.com/> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2007-05-24 by David Sinai
Paul - How does this compare to K7? How is it possible to do split toning when all the inks are the same? I guess I am missing something in a big way. Thanks for your help. David --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Michael King" <drmrking@...> wrote: > > Paul as always thanks for sharing, very interesting and thought provoking. > > Mike > > > On 23/05/07, Paul Roark <paul.roark@...> wrote: > > > > In my continuing experimentation with this 100%, multi-channel Eboni > > carbon > > printing approach, I've posted some graphs that compare the LensWork warm > > split-tone tonal distribution with what Eboni gives on Photo Rag and some > > other papers. See page 10 of http://www.paulroark.com/BW- Info/R1800.pdf
> > > > Paul > > > > www.PaulRoark.com <http://www.paulroark.com/> > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >
2007-05-24 by Sergei Antonov
Paul, looking at your diagramms in this paper, I suspect that I wasted my efforts last weekend. I was trying to create neutral QTR profile for PremierArtBW for 2200 using UT7 inkset. On glossy and satin papers, and on some other matte papers with UT7 I was using identical curves for M and C, and for LM and LC to get neutral tone. Whatever I try on PremerArtBW, I always have one tone (cold or warm, mostly cold) dominating. To compensate, I set limits for cold and warm inks 3-4 units apart, and still cannot get neutral tone. Sounds like this paper is quite unique in its response curve, it may be possible that I have to use curves with quite different shapes for warm and cool inks. PremierArtBW shows quite dramatic difference in response to warm and cool tones, so may be UT7 inkset doesn't work as designed? Thanks, Sergei --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" <paul.roark@...> wrote: > > In my continuing experimentation with this 100%, multi-channel Eboni carbon > printing approach, I've posted some graphs that compare the LensWork warm > split-tone tonal distribution with what Eboni gives on Photo Rag and some > other papers. See page 10 of http://www.paulroark.com/BW- Info/R1800.pdf
> > > > Paul > > www.PaulRoark.com <http://www.paulroark.com/> > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >
2007-05-24 by Paul Roark
David, >Paul - How does this compare to K7? It's a different direction. K7 uses the most crossovers with the lightest inks for the maximum smoothness. The 100% carbon approach is not for maximum smoothness but for the most stable print. It uses no crossovers and no dilute inks. The only reason it is reasonably smooth is that it uses the 1.5 picoliter dots of the R800/1800, and it uses 3 channels to hide the microbanding. >How is it possible to do split toning when all the inks are the same? It's how the paper reacts with the carbon. I'm not doing a thing with profiling. It's all in the paper choice. It's not for everyone, but I suspect there are quite a few people who are bothered by the color inks in the B&W prints, not to mention all the complexity that has come into what should be a relatively simple process. It's just another option for B&W, and one I'm having quite a bit of fun with at the moment. Paul www.PaulRoark.com
2007-05-24 by Ernst Dinkla
Paul Roark wrote: > The 100% carbon approach is not for maximum smoothness but for the most > stable print. It uses no crossovers and no dilute inks. The only reason it > is reasonably smooth is that it uses the 1.5 picoliter dots of the > R800/1800, and it uses 3 channels to hide the microbanding. Which has been my theoretical advice for the best BO printing possible when Clayton Jones wrote his first messages on BO printing in this list and not everyone could get the quality Clayton got. Next step in quality would be more weaving strokes. See the Multihead BO thread in 2003. Met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst | Dinkla Grafische Techniek | | www.pigment-print.com | | ( unvollendet ) |
2007-05-24 by Paul Roark
Hi Ernst, >Paul Roark wrote: >> The 100% carbon approach is not for maximum smoothness >> but for the most stable print. It uses no crossovers and >> no dilute inks. The only reason it >> is reasonably smooth is that it uses the 1.5 picoliter >> dots of the R800/1800, and it uses 3 channels to hide >> the microbanding. >... Next step in quality would be more weaving strokes. What I've found is that with the Gimp print's ordered dither, if the curves are at the same point and same slope, there will be little vertical lines. So, I have to mix them up a bit so the dots don't line themselves up. I suspect some more work on that front might pay off. Paul www.PaulRoark.com
2007-05-26 by mkirschner
Paul, I know this is a subjective question, but how do the prints look? My own point of reference it the humble C86. I do a mix of Eboni Black-Only on Premier Art Hot Press (surprisingly good) and 4-ink "EZ" with your ICC profile on Kirkland Glossy (excellent). Thanks, Mitch
2007-05-27 by Paul Roark
Hi Mitch, >I know this is a subjective question, but how do the prints look? I dumped my 2400. I'll still use the 7500 with K4+ inks when I need to for the large prints. The 220 has Ut-3D for my daily printing, letters, and glossy brochures. The 2200 is a standby 13" and test bed for k2 printers. In other words, all my 13" fine art prints will be done with the R1800 carbon printing system. It's in a league of its own for me when all the factors are considered. My hardest to print image, Grand Teton, is the closest to showing artifacts in the sky, but even it on Premier Art 205 is OK. Looks wise it covers the range from cold PA Matte BW to warm MIS Alpha (an Innova no-OBA coating). Premier Art 205 or 270 will probably be my standard for most printing. PA 205 has been my standard for 11 x 14 and below for some time for a variety of reasons. Now another reason is that the R1800 prints more smoothly on that paper than on some of the thicker ones. On a few images that difference is visible. >My own point of reference it the humble C86. That is a very fine printer with the EZ inks, particularly on glossy paper like Kirkland. The EZ-N inks are on the cool side of neutral, but they look good on glossy paper. The R1800 carbon prints on PA 205 are medium warm, like the "gallery white" mat board I use. So, the image tone of what I do for fine art sales and museum restorations are warmer than EZ-N, but they look neutral when not next to a brightened paper and cold inkset. No previous black only approach is in the league with the 3-channel 1.5 pl R1800 carbon. On the other hand, some might want the smoother dedicated B&W or K3 ABW prints. For my purposes the extra smoothness is too small to matter. Paul www.PaulRoark.com
2007-05-27 by mkirschner
Thanks, Paul. I appreciate the detailed information, as well as your efforts in developing those alternatives. Mitch
2007-05-27 by David Sinai
Hi Paul - Could you provide more info on "It uses no crossovers and no dilute inks." Thanks, David --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" <paul.roark@...> wrote: > > David, > > >Paul - How does this compare to K7? > > It's a different direction. K7 uses the most crossovers with the lightest > inks for the maximum smoothness. > > The 100% carbon approach is not for maximum smoothness but for the most > stable print. It uses no crossovers and no dilute inks. The only reason it > is reasonably smooth is that it uses the 1.5 picoliter dots of the > R800/1800, and it uses 3 channels to hide the microbanding. > > >How is it possible to do split toning when all the inks are the same? > > It's how the paper reacts with the carbon. I'm not doing a thing with > profiling. It's all in the paper choice. > > It's not for everyone, but I suspect there are quite a few people who are > bothered by the color inks in the B&W prints, not to mention all the > complexity that has come into what should be a relatively simple process. > > It's just another option for B&W, and one I'm having quite a bit of fun with
> at the moment. > > Paul > www.PaulRoark.com >
2007-05-27 by mkirschner
Hi Paul, I've got another question, if you'll indulge me. I know QTR doesn't support the C86/C88. But, is a similar all-Eboni approach possible with the C86 or C88 using the Epson driver? Perhaps with diluted Eboni in the CMY channels + ICC profiles? I'm looking for something with the sparkle and warmth of Eboni black-only, with perhaps a bit more smoothness than I get on my C86 with black-only. (PA 205 gives me the best smoothness for black-only. It's often good enough for my purposes, but not always, depending on the image.) Just wondering whether this is a promising path to pursue, should I decide to start tinkering instead of shelling out money for an R800 setup. Thanks, Mitch
2007-05-28 by Paul Roark
>... is a similar all-Eboni approach possible with the > C86 or C88 using the Epson driver? Maybe, but it would not have the quality of the R800/1800 due to the dot size difference. The 260 is what I'll look at next. I'm hopeful that the 260 will take this approach to the sub-$100 printers. >Perhaps with diluted Eboni ... It becomes warm with dilution. The lack of color in Eboni is, in part, a function of high concentration. The ideal would be little black holes with no transparency at all. It seems to be at the edges where there is some transparency that we're getting the warmth from. Paul www.PaulRoark.com
2007-05-28 by Paul Roark
> Could you provide more info on "It uses no crossovers and no dilute inks." With the 100%, 3-channel Eboni setup, all the inks for B&W are 100% Eboni. There are no light inks. Recall that the R800 also uses no light color inks. The 1.5 pl dot is so small light inks are not needed for highlight smoothness. If there are no light inks, and the ink that is used for the highlights can also be used for the darkest black, the curves go from their 0 or off points to their top loads at the 100% black. No curve every goes into a negative slope. Where there are light inks in other systems, like the standard Epson hextone drivers, the light inks are used for the highlights, but then they are turned off as the darker inks are turned on for the more dense parts of the image. This is a "cross-over" between the light and dark inks. These transitions are the tricky and difficulty parts of most profiling jobs where the different density inks have to be carefully coordinated so that flat spots in the ramp don't result. There simple are no cross-overs in the system I'm now using. As such the profiling is easier and the curves will be more reliable. Note what happens to the quality control issues. They virtually disappear. There is no ink mixing by intermediaries. There are no problems with different batches of color inks being slightly off, because there are no color inks involved. I might add that the purist B&W types might want to run 3 or 4 Eboni channels and the rest just filled with cleaning fluid. If a nozzle check is not good, just swap channels -- put a cleaning cart in the clogged one and put Eboni in one of the spares that has had cleaning fluid in it. Paul www.PaulRoark.com
2007-05-28 by Paul Roark
I added a scan of a C86 MIS EZ test strip to the comparison between the R1800 and 2400. See http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/R1800.pdf at p. 2. Paul www.PaulRoark.com <http://www.paulroark.com/> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2007-05-28 by Manuel Zini
Has anyone had experience printing black only with ImagePrint ? My workflow will be: define ink limit then linearize the obtained curve. I know I can do that with QTR but I'm wondering if a similar workflow would be possible with ImagePrint. Thanks a lot, Manuel ___________________________________ L'email della prossima generazione? Puoi averla con la nuova Yahoo! Mail: http://it.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html
2007-05-28 by Ernst Dinkla
Paul Roark wrote: > I added a scan of a C86 MIS EZ test strip to the comparison between the > R1800 and 2400. > > > > See http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/R1800.pdf at p. 2. Paul, With the Multihead BO 1.5 picoliter printing there should be more influence of dotgain by changing paper coating batches and air humidity. First of all its ratio between dot surface and total dot circumference shows changes faster and the black ink has little transparency so its dotgain will have a high density while the spots from where there ink migrated will not become more transparent either. Quite a difference to large dots with diluted inks where the lower dotgain and more ink transparency dampens dotgain influences (but affects detail contrast). I thought way back when we discussed this in theory that it could be a problem. I wonder what it is in practice. At the same time the small black dots give the graphic qualities Clayton liked: paper color less filtered overall, ink color hardly visible, high detail contrast. An interesting advantage could be the very low use of ink and by that of inkmedia so reducing outgassing to a minimum when framed. Met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst | Dinkla Grafische Techniek | | www.pigment-print.com | | ( unvollendet ) |
2007-05-28 by RobLee
looks like r1800 does it again.
Paul Roark <paul.roark@...> wrote: I added a scan of a C86 MIS EZ test strip to the comparison between the
R1800 and 2400.
See http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/R1800.pdf at p. 2.
Paul
www.PaulRoark.com <http://www.paulroark.com/>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]2007-05-28 by Clayton Jones
Hello Ernst, >>The 100% carbon approach is not for maximum smoothness but for >>the most stable print. It uses no crossovers and no dilute inks. >>The only reason it is reasonably smooth is that it uses the 1.5 >>picoliter dots of the R800/1800, and it uses 3 channels to hide >>the microbanding. > >Which has been my theoretical advice for the best BO >printing possible when Clayton Jones wrote his first >messages on BO printing in this list and not everyone could >get the quality Clayton got. Next step in quality would be >more weaving strokes. I remember your recommendations in those days. I sort of grasped the concept but didn't have the technical know-how to implement it. It has taken Paul's knowledge to make it happen. I've been following this thread with much interest, and Paul recently sent me some print samples. >...At the same time the small black dots give the graphic >qualities Clayton liked: paper color less filtered overall, >ink color hardly visible, high detail contrast. It is by far the best BO I've seen - much smoother, random dither pattern without banding, and still has the qualities that make it such a powerful method, especially BO's beautiful black on the various papers. Regards, Clayton Info on black and white digital printing at http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
2007-05-28 by Paul Roark
Hi Ernst, >Paul Roark wrote: >> I added a scan of a C86 MIS EZ test strip to the comparison >> between the R1800 and 2400. ... >> See http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/R1800.pdf at p. 2. >With the Multihead BO 1.5 picoliter printing there should be >more influence of dotgain by changing paper coating batches >and air humidity. I'm not sure about the causation but what I see is more of a difference in smoothness between paper types than I was at least aware of with the dilute ink approaches. Of course, I'm looking for artifacts, particularly roughness due to the obvious fact that we're accustomed to dense inks not printing smoothly. Among the various batches of, for example, the Premier Art 205 paper, including Epson's "Scrapbook" version of it, I'm not seeing any significant differences. I also print test strips from foggy mornings to dry afternoons and after drying the previous test strip on the paper with a hair drier, which I'm guessing simulates a very low humidity condition. So, at this point I'd have to say that I'm not seeing sensitivity to humidity or paper batch. It may be that the amount of water that needs to be absorbed by the coating is so much less than it is designed for that humidity is a minor influence. (Then again don't expect Somerset Enhanced to have smooth midtone grays -- or a competitive dmax -- in any conditions.) One other thing I'm seeing that might be relevant to this issue is that some papers that showed blotchiness with dilute inks look fine with the 3-Eboni approach. MIS Alpha, which is the Innova un-brightened coating on an alpha cellulose base, is a dramatic case in point. My favorite paper for several years was the PermaJet Alpha, which was this same coating, but on a cotton base. It printed smoothly with dilute inks and had a wonderfully creamy tone. Then PermaJet pulled out of the U.S. market (when Jobo USA folded). MIS tried to replace this, using the "Alpha" name on the alpha cellulose base, but it never printed well. It was a huge disappointment. Now, however, it's back. The MIS Alpha looks terrific with the drier printing. I've also noticed that I reach, at least with some papers, the dmax using less total ink with 3 channels firing evenly than I do when I have one channel carrying most of the load. This reduces ink usage and makes optimizing dmax much easier than it was when the Eboni channels were not firing equally. > First of all its ratio between dot surface > and total dot circumference shows changes faster I'm not sure I follow why they'd change faster. >and the black ink has little transparency That, I think, is the key. Ideally, I'd like little black holes. It's the minor transparency at the edges that is, I believe, one of the remaining sources of warmth. When you look at the 100% black tones, it looks like Eboni has very little warmth. At the other extreme, when diluted, it's as warm as any. I think the smaller the edge transparency the less influence on tone the carbon will have. As such, the ratio between the area and circumference is probably why the 3.5 pl 2200 dots print a bit more neutral. > so its dotgain will have a >high density while the spots from where there ink migrated >will not become more transparent either. Again, I'm not sure. > Quite a difference >to large dots with diluted inks where the lower dotgain and >more ink transparency dampens dotgain influences (but >affects detail contrast). I thought way back when we >discussed this in theory that it could be a problem. I >wonder what it is in practice. >At the same time the small black dots give the graphic >qualities Clayton liked: paper color less filtered overall, >ink color hardly visible, high detail contrast. The less-filtered paper is mostly what I'm seeing. The paper becomes even more important. Again, I'd like little black holes with no color at all. Eboni may be the best we can do with current technology. (I would like to test some other black inks, however.) It's rather ironic that after all the variable tone inksets I've made to help control the tone of the print, I'm now taking a totally different direction. However, it was really fighting that carbon warmth that was behind all of the other efforts. >An interesting advantage could be the very low use of ink Yes. As I've mentioned, a purist B&W printer could have 2 bottles -- Eboni and cleaning fluid, and keep a printer running a very long time for very little money. The reaction of the old darkroom B&W printers (of which I'm one) has been particularly gratifying. Getting away from any color inks or color profiling really appeals to them (and me). "Black and white" once again means just that -- black image forming substance (even if carbon particles instead of silver grains) and white paper. >and by that of inkmedia so reducing outgassing to a minimum >when framed. I've never had a problem with matte paper outgassing. The glycols that cause the outgassing apparently have a great affinity for cellulose. So, on the non-barrier papers, they seem to latch onto the paper and just stay there. I have wondered, however, what impact they have on longevity. Paul www.PaulRoark.com
2007-05-28 by Ernst Dinkla
Paul Roark wrote: > humidity or paper batch. It may be that the amount of water that needs to > be absorbed by the coating is so much less than it is designed for that > humidity is a minor influence. Nice to see that my fears are not proved in practice. While theoretically more total dot boundary length versus dot surface should make dotgain more difficult to control (in offset printing this is one of the problems when finer screens are used) the actual ink media amount with BO may never touch the coating's absorption limits and with diluted inks of a quad set it will exceed that absorption limit much faster. Should remember that as it probably is a general rule in inkjet printing. Wonder whether the printed surface may be a bit more vulnerable if the ink stays more on top. > One other thing I'm seeing that might be relevant to this issue is that some > papers that showed blotchiness with dilute inks look fine with the 3-Eboni > approach. MIS Alpha, which is the Innova un-brightened coating on an alpha > cellulose base, is a dramatic case in point. My favorite paper for several > years was the PermaJet Alpha, which was this same coating, but on a cotton > base. It printed smoothly with dilute inks and had a wonderfully creamy > tone. Then PermaJet pulled out of the U.S. market (when Jobo USA folded). > MIS tried to replace this, using the "Alpha" name on the alpha cellulose > base, but it never printed well. It was a huge disappointment. Now, > however, it's back. The MIS Alpha looks terrific with the drier printing. Right there's no ink media enough and/or not enough paper surface covered to show that blotchiness. Cheaper quality coatings in general may perform better too then. In all the quad ink curves the transfer points between the quad inks have the highest ink loads + the 100% black but in this case only the 100% black gets there and that isn't transparent enough and as you write here below drier than with a single head. > I've also noticed that I reach, at least with some papers, the dmax using > less total ink with 3 channels firing evenly than I do when I have one > channel carrying most of the load. This reduces ink usage and makes > optimizing dmax much easier than it was when the Eboni channels were not > firing equally. Wonder whether the smaller droplets from more nozzles evaporate more ink media in flight too. The distribution on the surface will be better and then black Dmax usually goes up but it could also be less penetration into the coating that happens. Not better Dmax but the same Dmax at a lower ink limit, touching the minimum reflection point of black pigment inks earlier with that uniform black layer on top of the paper coating. I have a suspicion that thermohead inks have that too, the HP desktops often behaved better on uncoated papers. >> First of all its ratio between dot surface >> and total dot circumference shows changes faster > > I'm not sure I follow why they'd change faster. If bleeding for one reason or another happens then the same tone made with more small dots suffers more than a tone that is made of less large dots. But forget this, it looks like bleeding is no issue here, even on papers that do not have the best coating. >> and the black ink has little transparency > > That, I think, is the key. Ideally, I'd like little black holes. It's the > minor transparency at the edges that is, I believe, one of the remaining > sources of warmth. When you look at the 100% black tones, it looks like > Eboni has very little warmth. At the other extreme, when diluted, it's as > warm as any. I think the smaller the edge transparency the less influence > on tone the carbon will have. As such, the ratio between the area and > circumference is probably why the 3.5 pl 2200 dots print a bit more neutral. Right there should be a bit more neutrality with larger dots. Good coatings should improve that too for small dots though. >> At the same time the small black dots give the graphic >> qualities Clayton liked: paper color less filtered overall, >> ink color hardly visible, high detail contrast. > > The less-filtered paper is mostly what I'm seeing. The paper becomes even > more important. Again, I'd like little black holes with no color at all. > Eboni may be the best we can do with current technology. (I would like to > test some other black inks, however.) It's rather ironic that after all the > variable tone inksets I've made to help control the tone of the print, I'm > now taking a totally different direction. However, it was really fighting > that carbon warmth that was behind all of the other efforts. Yes, it is a real change in thinking but not strange for B&W. For subtractive color printing it is the opposite, the CcMmY color filtering works best with continues layers, there the limit is how much detail contrast can be kept. The N-color printers like the HP Z3100 reduce the ink amounts with the RGB ink substitutions for CM etc mixes, one way to deal with it. It is quite remarkable that the LM ink in that printer is the least used of all. >> and by that of inkmedia so reducing outgassing to a minimum >> when framed. > > I've never had a problem with matte paper outgassing. The glycols that > cause the outgassing apparently have a great affinity for cellulose. So, on > the non-barrier papers, they seem to latch onto the paper and just stay > there. I have wondered, however, what impact they have on longevity. Sorry, I made a jump there to gloss printing without mentioning it. Anyway I do not see why Multihead BO with PK shouldn't work for gloss. The R1800 GE could help if gloss isn't that good, possibly better in a second run though to keep the same dry ink quality of BO in the image printing stage. Met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst | Dinkla Grafische Techniek | | www.pigment-print.com | | ( unvollendet ) |
2007-05-29 by Paul Roark
Ernst, > ... I do not see why Multihead BO with PK >shouldn't work for gloss. The MIS PK is too warm for my tastes, and the Epson PK is too greenish, at least what came with the R1800 is. It would be interesting if there were a neutral PK that didn't have color in it, but the MIS PKN sure does. At this point I think neutral glossy printing is going to still need the color inks. I might load PK and EZ-N into 3 of the slots on the 260 to see what happens. Paul www.PaulRoark.com