Digital BW, The Print

Like many before me, I've a new R2400 and am wondering what to do with
my older 2100/2200.  Although the R2400 is a good B&W machine, again
like many before me, I am tempted to turn the 2100/2200 into a
dedicated B&W printer.  

The Cone (neutral) inks do seem a lot more expensive than the UT7. 
What do you get for your money?  From trawling this forum, it seems to
me that:
* Cone is smoother;
* More recently versions of Cone may clog a little less, but reports
vary greatly.

However:
* Cone won't print on glossy;
* UT7 gives you toning options in one inkset;
* Lightfastness is about the same.

Are there any other variables that I'm missing?

F_P

Can I take it that this question (Cone vs MIS) is too sensitive to
warrant a public reply?  I'd be happy to receive private comments.

F_P


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "ferdinand_paris"
<ferdinand_paris@...> wrote:

>
> Like many before me, I've a new R2400 and am wondering what to do with
> my older 2100/2200.  Although the R2400 is a good B&W machine, again
> like many before me, I am tempted to turn the 2100/2200 into a
> dedicated B&W printer.  
> 
> The Cone (neutral) inks do seem a lot more expensive than the UT7. 
> What do you get for your money?  From trawling this forum, it seems to
> me that:
> * Cone is smoother;
> * More recently versions of Cone may clog a little less, but reports
> vary greatly.
> 
> However:
> * Cone won't print on glossy;
> * UT7 gives you toning options in one inkset;
> * Lightfastness is about the same.
> 
> Are there any other variables that I'm missing?
> 
> F_P
>

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "ferdinand_paris"
<ferdinand_paris@...> wrote:
>
> Can I take it that this question (Cone vs MIS) is too sensitive to
> warrant a public reply?

I don't think the group shrinks from controversy.  You probably just
summarized the main points, so no need to add more.

I currently have my 100% carbon, dilute Eboni inkset in my 2200.  It's
matte only, as smooth as any ever (7 monotone inks firing), home-mixable
like darkroom chemicals (particularly if MIS does not get the base on
it's web page soon), as stable as any, epson driver compatible, etc. 
See http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Eboni-6.pdf
<http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Eboni-6.pdf>

Of course, it may be a limited appeal approach.

MIS was having trouble getting 2200 carts for a while with the Epson ITC
matter.  Hopefully that was a short term problem.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com <http://www.PaulRoark.com>




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "pr_roark"
<pr_roark@...> wrote:
> I don't think the group shrinks from controversy.  You probably just
> summarized the main points, so no need to add more.

I guess the bottom line question remains:  are the pluses of Cone
worth the considerable extra cost? 

F_P

I just don't think there's a blanket answer to that. It depends on so many individual 
subjective things, particularly the nature of your imagery, and your personal preferences 
about B&W prints.
The other reason there may be few replies, I don't suppose there are many that have 
extensive experience with both systems and feel qualified to answer.
Tyler

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "ferdinand_paris" 
<ferdinand_paris@...> wrote:

>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "pr_roark"
> <pr_roark@> wrote:
> > I don't think the group shrinks from controversy.  You probably just
> > summarized the main points, so no need to add more.
> 
> I guess the bottom line question remains:  are the pluses of Cone
> worth the considerable extra cost? 
> 
> F_P
>

Posted by: "ferdinand_paris"
 >>> I don't think the group shrinks from controversy. You probably just
 >>> summarized the main points, so no need to add more.

 >I guess the bottom line question remains: are the pluses of Cone
 >worth the considerable extra cost?

Ferdinand -
I've wondered the same thing at times, but it's probably more that  
most on this
list simply use the other ink choices - no conspiracy :-)))))))

I've used Cone's inks since they first came out - that must be around  
seven years
now.  They have improved considerably, no longer clog, and the extra  
cost has always seemed
worthwhile, to me. (I have them in my 2200, and use a 2400 for color).

If you can still get them, Jon's carts for K7 can be refilled, even  
though he didn't
advertise that, so last month, I bought a couple sets of inks from  
him (basically
to have extra cartridges in the future) and bulk inks in 4 ounce  
bottles. That
brings the cost down considerably.

Just one man's opinion!

Clay

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I agree with Tyler.  
I have set up several printers over time to print with different brands of  
B/W inksets, starting with Cone's PiezoTone cool tone inks in a 1280. I put 
warm  tone in another 1280. Mediastreet GQ went into a 2200. After I sold the 2 
1280's  and Cone developed NK 7 inks, I loaded a 4000 with NK 7 and another 
4000 with a  split tone NK7 set. 
What I found was that it all depended on the image, as to which inkset I  
wanted to use. I have files of images on film from almost 60 years of  
photographing, 18 as a professional. I shot everything under the sun, from here  at 
home, to Europe, the Caribbean and West Africa. Lighting conditions, subject  
matter and my interpretation all contributed to my decisions on inksets to print  
with, just as in the darkroom, I would switch paper, and/or developer to pull  
the print I wanted.
There is no silver bullet, or easy answer to your question. You are the  
arbiter and it's your call on that one. If you don't want to do your own testing  
and experimenting, send a file to someone using a different inkset and ask 
them  to print it. And after you find the inkset, there's the choice of  
paper.......
 
Richard Massie
 
 
In a message dated 1/1/2008 12:15:37 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
tyler@... writes:

I just  don't think there's a blanket answer to that. It depends on so many 
individual  
subjective things, particularly the nature of your imagery, and your  
personal preferences 
about B&W prints.
The other reason there may  be few replies, I don't suppose there are many 
that have 
extensive  experience with both systems and feel qualified to answer.
Tyler

---  In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "ferdinand_paris"  
<ferdinand_paris@...> wrote:
>
> --- In  DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "pr_roark"
>  <pr_roark@> wrote:
> > I don't think the group shrinks from  controversy.  You probably just
> > summarized the main points,  so no need to add more.
> 
> I guess the bottom line question  remains:  are the pluses of Cone
> worth the considerable extra  cost? 
> 
> F_P
>





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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Ferdinand

As you've got the 2400 for glossy when you need it why not go for the best
matte performance with the Cone inks?  The latest K7 ones are great and
don't suffer from clogs.  The only "downside" is that you need to choose
which tone you want before you buy rather than before you print.  I've used
the Neutral and Split Tone inks so far with great results but am torn
between them as to which is my favourite.

David Whistance

PS - Cone can also now do glossy, albeit only in Selenium tone.

  -----Original Message-----
  From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of
ferdinand_paris
  Sent: 31 December 2007 22:39
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Another post on Cone vs UT7 for 2100/2200


  Can I take it that this question (Cone vs MIS) is too sensitive to
  warrant a public reply? I'd be happy to receive private comments.

  F_P

  --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "ferdinand_paris"
  <ferdinand_paris@...> wrote:
  >
  > Like many before me, I've a new R2400 and am wondering what to do with
  > my older 2100/2200. Although the R2400 is a good B&W machine, again
  > like many before me, I am tempted to turn the 2100/2200 into a
  > dedicated B&W printer.
  >
  > The Cone (neutral) inks do seem a lot more expensive than the UT7.
  > What do you get for your money? From trawling this forum, it seems to
  > me that:
  > * Cone is smoother;
  > * More recently versions of Cone may clog a little less, but reports
  > vary greatly.
  >
  > However:
  > * Cone won't print on glossy;
  > * UT7 gives you toning options in one inkset;
  > * Lightfastness is about the same.
  >
  > Are there any other variables that I'm missing?
  >
  > F_P
  >



  


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

FP, I have been a Cone Peizotone user since they came out in my 7000 with IP
to drive it. Before that I was working at a studio that started with their
ultra clogging ink set. I didn't feel like spending a ton of time working
out all the issues that surround closed systems; ink jet printers with out
total control over out put. I too was spoiled by being able to change
papers, developers, toners, etc in the silver based printing world that
early digital B&W was lots of experimentation. It still is and many would
rather be printing than comparing, printing comparing, in an endless loop. 

 

While I have seen a few MIS prints, I chose to stay with Cone not because I
knew them to be best or trouble free (in fact I had seen just the opposite)
but the set I was using did work well enough to be "my set up".  With all
the improvements in OEM drivers and inks, the control in split toning from
programs like PS CS3, some serious thinking needs to be put into tinkering
with dedicated ink sets. As papers and inks come to market and get used by
experienced users samples and opinions will be shared. I doubt however that
consensus will come easily or at all as too what each workflow will provide.


 

This list contains serious professional printers as well as newbies to
photography and printing. So the desires and understanding will run the
gamut of pricing, personal esthetics, etc.; everything that affects what we
like best.  Few of us can spend the time to play with all the options out
there.   And even those that can spend some time playing with new inks and
paper are subject to personal choice which may or may not come out in our
postings. 

 

I am amazed at how many options present themselves to us each day to make
these images; Computer OS, RIPs, paper, ink, image editing software, etc. It
is easy to get lost in figuring it all out. And in the mean time precious
creative time is lost and some newly discovered. 

 

Load you craft with enough to keep you afloat, but not so much to meet every
possible situation.    

 

Eric

 

Eric Neilsen Photography

4101 Commerce Street

Suite 9

Dallas, TX 75226

http://e.neilsen.home.att.net

http://ericneilsenphotography.com

Skype ejprinter

  _____  

From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
CorrPro96@...
Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2008 11:49 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Another post on Cone vs UT7 for 2100/2200

<SNIP>
There is no silver bullet, or easy answer to your question. You are the 
arbiter and it's your call on that one. If you don't want to do your own
testing 
and experimenting, send a file to someone using a different inkset and ask 
them to print it. And after you find the inkset, there's the choice of 
paper.......

Richard Massie


In a message dated 1/1/2008 12:15:37 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, 
tyler@tylerboley. <mailto:tyler%40tylerboley.com> com writes:

I just don't think there's a blanket answer to that. It depends on so many 
individual 
subjective things, particularly the nature of your imagery, and your 
personal preferences 
about B&W prints.
The other reason there may be few replies, I don't suppose there are many 
that have 
extensive experience with both systems and feel qualified to answer.
Tyler

 


<snip>
> 
> I guess the bottom line question remains: are the pluses of Cone
> worth the considerable extra cost? 
,___ 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> There is no silver bullet, or easy answer to your question.

So true.

I think there might be some generalities.  With respect to smoothness,
more inks firing generally gives a smoother image, but the quality of
the printer is a major variable here.  Also, there is, as they say in
economics, decreasing marginal utility to more inks.  In most printers
after 3 or 4 ink, the differences are so minimal as to be insignificant.
Even in my old 7500, while I have 6 carbon inks in it how, I have
omitted the lightest and second darkest (between LK and K) with no
significant (what normal viewers would see) difference.

Of course, as one adds more inks, one loses the flexibility of, for
example, variable tones, glossy and matte, etc.

With respect to clogging, I think the binder is a major variable.  Matte
inksets can use much less.  In fact, with the lightest carbon inks I'm
using I've been experimenting with diluting them with a base that has no
binder (aside from what was in the oringinal Eboni), and the impact on
the light inks sticking to the paper is insignificant.  So, while the
latest glossy compatible inks from MIS are very good with respect to
clogging, in my tests the carbon inks I'm mixing with matte base or a
base with no binder at all appear to clogg less.

Again, of course, there is an obvious trade-off: no glossy paper
printing.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com <http://www.PaulRoark.com>







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On 
> Behalf Of David Whistance wrote:
>
> The only "downside" is that you 
> need to choose
> which tone you want before you buy rather than before you 
> print.  I've used
> the Neutral and Split Tone inks so far with great results but am torn
> between them as to which is my favourite.

If you're comfortable creating your own profiles, it is possible to have
toning options using one set of Cone inks. I use the following:  K - Eboni;
Sepia - 2/4/6; Neutral 3/5/7. I use MIS Eboni because of it's excellent
Dmax. I can also use it for my colour prints. This configuration gives me
the following options. . .

K-S2-S4-S6 - Sepia

K-N3-N5-N7 - Neutral

K-S2-S4-S6-N7 - Sepia with netural highlights

K-S2-S4-N5-N7 - Sepia shadows moving to Neutral highlights, transitioning in
the midtones

Various tones between Sepia and Neutral, using QTR's blending capabilities

Various split-tone combinations of Sepia and Neutral (shadows, midtones &
highlights) using QTR's split tone capabilities. For example, 70% Sepia
shadows, 70% Sepia midtones, 100% Neutral highlights makes for very nice
portrait and landscape prints. Sepia by itself looks softer than Neutral
(even though the densities are the same). Blending some neutral into the
shadows/midtones give the more punch yet still retains the warmth of sepia.
Having neutral highlights make for nice skintones. When I use this
combination for landscape images I can get a really nice 3D effect.

I don't have problems with clogging, and I'm using a 2200. I'm very pleased
with this configuration. It's flexible, yet high quality (4 dilutions
minimum) and I don't have to worry about colour pigments (other than what is
in Sepia). Buying the Cone inks in bulk really brings the cost down.

All the best in sorting out your decision.

Terry.

Thanks for all responses.  My decision isn't any easier, but it is now
even better informed.

F_P

"David Whistance" wrote:
<The only "downside" is that you need to choose
<which tone you want before you buy rather than before you print[with  
Cone Inks]. I've used
<the Neutral and Split Tone inks so far with great results but am torn
<between them as to which is my favourite.

David - There's another choice, which works for me, since I tend  
towards neutral to warm black
prints, but there isn't a warm black set from Cone.  But the upside  
is that adding one Sepia
cartridge (I use it in either the # 3 or 4 position) , will warm the  
print up without any apparent
look of sepia or split toning. Of course one could place more sepia  
for a split tone, then
go back to the Neutral black set whenever you want.  Also, different  
papers really do change
the degree of warmth and coolness.


Clay Price

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I am leaning towards the Cone inks, but I'd like to understand better
the paper selection issue, like how much variation you get and which
papers give which degree of warmth / coolness.  Is there somewhere
that you can refer me to where this is discussed

F_P


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Clayton Price
<clay@...> wrote:

> .... Cone ...
> Also, different papers really do change the degree of warmth and 
> coolness.
> 
> Clay Price