Digital BW, The Print

Hi,
in the shower this morning, it occurred to me: why doesn't Epson use low-gamut pigments, as manufacturers like Cone do, to make the K/LK/LLK inks neutral - so that when printing BW, we are not balancing the warm carbon pigment with the less stable high-gamut coloured pigments that their coloured inks use? The high gamut pigments would then only be needed in BW printing, for toned prints, or balancing the tone on differently toned papers. 

I can't see what downside there would be in producing perfectly neutral black ink, with neutral dilutions. I can't imagine what downside this would have for colour printing, either.

Any thoughts anyone?

Richard
____________
http://www.richardsmallfield.com

Richard Smallfield schreef:
> Hi,
> in the shower this morning, it occurred to me: why doesn't Epson use low-gamut pigments, as manufacturers like Cone do, to make the K/LK/LLK inks neutral - so that when printing BW, we are not balancing the warm carbon pigment with the less stable high-gamut coloured pigments that their coloured inks use? The high gamut pigments would then only be needed in BW printing, for toned prints, or balancing the tone on differently toned papers. 
> 
> I can't see what downside there would be in producing perfectly neutral black ink, with neutral dilutions. I can't imagine what downside this would have for colour printing, either.
> 
> Any thoughts anyone?
> 
> Richard
> ____________
> http://www.richardsmallfield.com

HP Z models + the B9180 etc desktop printers have a neutral grey ink 
range that has a high resistance to fading. Paul Roark has used some of 
the Vivera inks, diluted and straight, in Epson models and there are no 
clogs as I understand it.  But only with QTR you will be able to change 
the media presets, not with the Epson driver. The Epson driver will 
control what will be composite grey and what mixed of grey inks, both in 
ABW and color mode.


-- 
Met vriendelijke groeten,   Ernst


Dinkla Gallery Canvas Wrap Actions

|      Dinkla Grafische Techniek      |
|         www.pigment-print.com        |
|                 ( unvollendet )                 |

Hi Ernst, 
I recalled the HP neutral grey too ... why on earth Epson hasn't adopted this approach is very hard to fathom.

I've compared a QTR with an ABW print today and there is no comparison re the amount of coloured ink  - but I've only had my 3800 a few days, and don't know yet if it's possible to improve the ABW performance vis a vis reducing coloured ink.

In the meantime I think I'll stick to QTR.
Richard

At 06:42 p.m. Saturday 8/08/2009, you wrote:
>HP Z models + the B9180 etc desktop printers have a neutral grey ink 
>range that has a high resistance to fading. Paul Roark has used some of 
>the Vivera inks, diluted and straight, in Epson models and there are no 
>clogs as I understand it. But only with QTR you will be able to change 
>the media presets, not with the Epson driver. The Epson driver will 
>control what will be composite grey and what mixed of grey inks, both in 
>ABW and color mode.

____________
http://www.richardsmallfield.com

On Aug 8, 2009, at 1:41 AM, Richard Smallfield wrote:

> >in the shower this morning, it occurred to me: why doesn't Epson  
> use low-gamut pigments, as manufacturers like Cone do, to make the K/ 
> LK/LLK inks neutral - so that when printing BW, we are not balancing  
> the warm carbon pigment with the less stable high-gamut coloured  
> pigments that their coloured inks use? The high gamut pigments would  
> then only be needed in BW printing, for toned prints, or balancing  
> the tone on differently toned papers.
>
> >I can't see what downside there would be in producing perfectly  
> neutral black ink, with neutral dilutions. I can't imagine what  
> downside this would have for colour printing, either.

Your brainstorm is not unique; good ideas seldom are. This has been  
suggested in various ways to more than one printer manufacturer, by  
myself and by others, over the years. HP uses a solution related to  
this by tuning the color of their gray inks in the ink formulation.  
This is fine, but very limiting in terms of media; only certain media  
will print neutrally with such inks, so either the papers HP blesses  
for the printers are limited to a few with similar neutrality, or they  
still need a neutralization scheme involving colored inks (or both).

In terms of low gamut color in separate carts, that would require  
pricey extra heads and delivery components for those additional inks,  
unless they were to be swapped out with the high gamut color inks,  
turning the printer (at least temporarily) into a B&W machine, which  
all the manufacturers have chosen not to offer as a solution.

The most practical solution would actually be to replace light and  
dark grays (since no gray can actually be neutral on all media)  with  
three near grays for each, that bracket the gray axis, providing full  
color control on all media, no matter what neutrality they print.  
Epson discussed this system in detail with the person who holds the  
patent on it, but chose to use full saturation color inks for their  
toning of grays instead. After all, it would require 4 more colors of  
ink, and heads to run them. On the other hand it would offer excellent  
black and white, with full tonal flexibility...

C. David Tobie
Global Product Technology Manager
Digital Imaging & Home Theater
CDTobie@...


  ----------


Datacolor
www.datacolor.com/Spyder3



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Richard Smallfield wrote:
 
> > ... why doesn't Epson  
> > use low-gamut pigments, as manufacturers like Cone do, 
> > to make the K/ LK/LLK inks neutral

Separation of the inks and color instability may be one reason.  See page 4 of http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/4K+.pdf

> > - so that when printing BW, we are not balancing  
> > the warm carbon pigment with the less stable high-gamut coloured  
> > pigments that their coloured inks use?

The "neutral" B&W and HP inks are blends of carbon with color that still have the disadvantages -- in a lesser degree -- of the color ink weaknesses. 

My use of the relatively neutral Eboni to make 100% carbon pigment B&W prints is the only pure carbon, relatively neutral approach I'm aware of.  See page 7 of http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Eboni-6.pdf to see just how neutral I can print with even the dilute Eboni with my 7500.

> >I can't see what downside there would be in producing perfectly  
> > neutral black ink, with neutral dilutions. 

If they could do so, they would have.  

The majors can't even follow the Eboni model be cause it will not meet their standards with respect to settlement.  The neutrality comes, in part, from the size of the particle.  The larger the particles, the more neutral they tend to be.  Eboni is still tiny relative to the nozzle. (I fired up the 1800 3MK system the other day, and it had no Eboni clogs after 8 months of non-use.)  However, the Eboni particle is large compared to, for example, the MIS LK, which is warmer and more stable in suspension than the Epson LK, probably because it is ground smaller.  

The 3800 can't match the 7500 with Eboni-6 either, because the 7500 large dot is part of why it can be so neutral.  Warmth of carbon appears to be largely an edge effect.  As the particle or dot become larger, the area and thus image density increases by the square of the radius, whereas the edge -- circumference -- increases linearly.

Dilute carbon is warmer than 100% carbon, probably due to the greater transparency of the dots.



C D Tobie <CDTobie@...> wrote:

> ...HP uses a solution related to this by tuning the color 
> of their gray inks in the ink formulation.  
> This is fine, but very limiting in terms of media; 
> only certain media  will print neutrally with such inks, ...

Actually, I'm rather impressed by how neutral the HP pigs are on lots of media.  HP has done an impressive job of matching the various color and carbon pigments in their brew so that the variance in tone and separation of the color inks in the suspension is relatively minor.  It's not perfect, but the HP R&D capabilities are apparent.  Still, they failed to find a way to make a 100% carbon neutral ink.

> In terms of low gamut color in separate carts, ...
> all the manufacturers have chosen not to offer as a solution.

Which also means that those of us who like to take the road less traveled don't have the low gamut colors available to us.  I've used some watercolor pigments to print with in experimental inksets, but they are not suitable for commercialization, and making them such takes a huge order that a small company is not likely to take the risk on.  If one wants to, I happen to know of a single pigment toner that virtually perfectly offsets the carbon warm.  So, there would be a non-separating, low-gamut toner that would do the job and only take a single channel.  The separate dots don't stand out at all on the paper.

The truth is B&W printing is a side show for the large OEMs.  We're a gnat, but this too is a double edged sword.  I'm very happy that the OEMs can match what I do.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

So  could one create a Hextone inkset made of diluted Vivera grays and put it in a Z3100 for super PK output? That's what I've been thinking about for awhile, and possibly using the additonal channels for gloss enhancer and split toning hues like red and blue and yellow. Putting thermal inks like that in a Piezzo printer sounds a little scary.

What does one dilute Vivera Gray with?

john





--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Richard Smallfield <r.smallfield@...> wrote:

>
> Hi Ernst, 
> I recalled the HP neutral grey too ... why on earth Epson hasn't adopted this approach is very hard to fathom.
> 
> I've compared a QTR with an ABW print today and there is no comparison re the amount of coloured ink  - but I've only had my 3800 a few days, and don't know yet if it's possible to improve the ABW performance vis a vis reducing coloured ink.
> 
> In the meantime I think I'll stick to QTR.
> Richard
> 
> At 06:42 p.m. Saturday 8/08/2009, you wrote:
> >HP Z models + the B9180 etc desktop printers have a neutral grey ink 
> >range that has a high resistance to fading. Paul Roark has used some of 
> >the Vivera inks, diluted and straight, in Epson models and there are no 
> >clogs as I understand it. But only with QTR you will be able to change 
> >the media presets, not with the Epson driver. The Epson driver will 
> >control what will be composite grey and what mixed of grey inks, both in 
> >ABW and color mode.
> 
> ____________
> http://www.richardsmallfield.com
>

In theory one could. Keeping the different pigments in even suspension  
in the same cartridge could be a challenge, enough of a challenge that  
Paul R. has not chosen to develop such inks, as I understand it. But,  
yes, it could be done.

C. D. Tobie
Global Product Technology Mngr.
Digital Imaging & Home Theater
Datacolor.com
CDTobie@...

On Aug 8, 2009, at 6:28 PM, "john dean" <deanwork2003@...> wrote:

> So  could one create a Hextone inkset made of diluted Vivera grays  
> and put it in a Z3100 for super PK output? That's what I've been  
> thinking about for awhile, and possibly using the additonal channels  
> for gloss enhancer and split toning hues like red and blue and  
> yellow. Putting thermal inks like that in a Piezzo printer sounds a  
> little scary.
>
> What does one dilute Vivera Gray with?
>
> john
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Richard  
> Smallfield <r.smallfield@...> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Ernst,
>> I recalled the HP neutral grey too ... why on earth Epson hasn't  
>> adopted this approach is very hard to fathom.
>>
>> I've compared a QTR with an ABW print today and there is no  
>> comparison re the amount of coloured ink  - but I've only had my  
>> 3800 a few days, and don't know yet if it's possible to improve the  
>> ABW performance vis a vis reducing coloured ink.
>>
>> In the meantime I think I'll stick to QTR.
>> Richard
>>
>> At 06:42 p.m. Saturday 8/08/2009, you wrote:
>>> HP Z models + the B9180 etc desktop printers have a neutral grey ink
>>> range that has a high resistance to fading. Paul Roark has used  
>>> some of
>>> the Vivera inks, diluted and straight, in Epson models and there  
>>> are no
>>> clogs as I understand it. But only with QTR you will be able to  
>>> change
>>> the media presets, not with the Epson driver. The Epson driver will
>>> control what will be composite grey and what mixed of grey inks,  
>>> both in
>>> ABW and color mode.
>>
>> ____________
>> http://www.richardsmallfield.com
>>
>
>
>
>
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David,

I'm not sure I'm following you. The Vivera inkset has a PK ( or MK), a Gray, and a light gray. All that would be needed is diluting that light gray roughly in half, and possibly also then in half again ( or 30% or so). If you used the same base HP uses what is keeping it from correct suspension? You are not mixing anything but the pigment and the base as a dilution. I have my doubts as to whether this would be applicable in an Epson head though, but that's not what I'm talking about.

And, what IS the base of Vivera? I can certainly find out if I ever end up with another used Z to play with.

John





--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Cdtobie <CDTobie@...> wrote:

>
> In theory one could. Keeping the different pigments in even suspension  
> in the same cartridge could be a challenge, enough of a challenge that  
> Paul R. has not chosen to develop such inks, as I understand it. But,  
> yes, it could be done.
> 
> C. D. Tobie
> Global Product Technology Mngr.
> Digital Imaging & Home Theater
> Datacolor.com
> CDTobie@...
> 
> On Aug 8, 2009, at 6:28 PM, "john dean" <deanwork2003@...> wrote:
> 
> > So  could one create a Hextone inkset made of diluted Vivera grays  
> > and put it in a Z3100 for super PK output? That's what I've been  
> > thinking about for awhile, and possibly using the additonal channels  
> > for gloss enhancer and split toning hues like red and blue and  
> > yellow. Putting thermal inks like that in a Piezzo printer sounds a  
> > little scary.
> >
> > What does one dilute Vivera Gray with?
> >
> > john
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Richard  
> > Smallfield <r.smallfield@> wrote:
> >>
> >> Hi Ernst,
> >> I recalled the HP neutral grey too ... why on earth Epson hasn't  
> >> adopted this approach is very hard to fathom.
> >>
> >> I've compared a QTR with an ABW print today and there is no  
> >> comparison re the amount of coloured ink  - but I've only had my  
> >> 3800 a few days, and don't know yet if it's possible to improve the  
> >> ABW performance vis a vis reducing coloured ink.
> >>
> >> In the meantime I think I'll stick to QTR.
> >> Richard
> >>
> >> At 06:42 p.m. Saturday 8/08/2009, you wrote:
> >>> HP Z models + the B9180 etc desktop printers have a neutral grey ink
> >>> range that has a high resistance to fading. Paul Roark has used  
> >>> some of
> >>> the Vivera inks, diluted and straight, in Epson models and there  
> >>> are no
> >>> clogs as I understand it. But only with QTR you will be able to  
> >>> change
> >>> the media presets, not with the Epson driver. The Epson driver will
> >>> control what will be composite grey and what mixed of grey inks,  
> >>> both in
> >>> ABW and color mode.
> >>
> >> ____________
> >> http://www.richardsmallfield.com
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other  
> > resources as they are often being updated.
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >
> > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish  
> > to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting  
> > this same page.
> >
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages  
> > to keep them short.
> > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or  
> > flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed  
> > from the membership without notice.
> > - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital  
> > B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be  
> > removed from the membership.
> > - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and  
> > guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group  
> > Owner and Moderators. See “Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines” in  
> > the Files section:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> >
> > BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE  
> > PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE “OWNE 
> > R” AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL  
> > NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL,  
> > CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DA 
> > MAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE L 
> > OSSES (EVEN IF THE  “OWNER” AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW,  
> > THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH D 
> > AMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIG 
> > ITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTER 
> > ATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF  
> > ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) AN 
> > Y OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>

"john dean" <deanwork2003@...> wrote:
>
> So  could one create a Hextone inkset made of diluted 
> Vivera grays ...

Yes, and I have.  See http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Ink-Mixing.pdf

I use HP PK by itself in an Epson 1400 to print my brochures.  The HP inks are lower in viscosity than the Epson inks, but well within what the very tolerant piezo heads can handle.  With my generic C6 base, the HP pigments stay in suspension better than in their OEM base (according to me centrifuge tests).

The HP dilution ratios are less than the 30% is used.  That is the HP grey is a bit denser than the HP PK 30% + 70% base.  I'm guessing they are 33% if not a bit more.

The dilute HP inks really to need glop -- the HP PK less so.  That's one reason I just stick with the HP PK by itself.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Right, that is why the Pk Vivera set up includes the gloss enhancer that works great for black and white that I've done here on a variety of pk papers. Newer versions of the 3200 firmware even allow for the amount of g enhancer to be controlled on the fly, or as I do it, through the various gloss media settings on the 3100.

What I'm trying to find out is, what IS the base? The Vivera base and the "C6" base. What is it? What are they made of? I'm suspect of anything that is laid down on the paper changing or staining over time.

I'm certain HP isn't going to sell it to us their base to experiment with.

john

> The dilute HP inks really to need glop -- the HP PK less so.  That's one reason I just stick with the HP PK by itself.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>

"john dean" <deanwork2003@...> wrote:
>... 
> What I'm trying to find out is, what IS the base? 
>The Vivera base 

See the HP MSDS for the grey ink at http://www.hp.com/hpinfo/globalcitizenship/environment/productdata/pdf/ij_c9451a_us_eng_v1.pdf

>and the "C6" base.

The "C6" base is water, glycerol, Photoflow (propylene glycol and alcohol wetting agents), with Edwal LFN wetting agent (alcohols) optional.

> I'm suspect of anything that is laid down on the paper changing 
> or staining over time.

I agree.  The water and alcohol surfactants will just evaporate.  The glycols will very slowly evaporate from the photo papers -- that's the source of the fog.  The glycerol and glycols appear to have an affinity for cellulose and may just stay in the matte papers forever.

I've tried to get answers from chemists as to what will happen to them, and I have not had consistent answers.  While none think something bad will happen, the "washed Arches" a couple of us are pursuing is, in part, to get these substances out of the print.

For the C6 base, I simply used materials there were the most common and safest.  The formula is very close to Epson gloss optimizer.  

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Thanks Paul,

I can see you've really looked into all this. It's pretty thought provoking.

From that Gray Vivera data sheet they even have the proportions, which is interesting that they would provide that.  

Never heard of 2-prrolidone. and  Triethanolamine. Looks like they might be the colorants that neutralize the carbon black. And there is a chemical called Alkyldiol, that they describe as Proprietary. That sounds mysterious.  It accounts for 7.5% of this mixture ( wetting agent?), with water making up 80% and the Carbon pigment less than 1% by weight. And that is the gray, I assume and not the LIGHT gray, which would be more like less than 1/2 percent carbon? and a light light gray even less....

So, if you take the HP gray dilute it with gyclol,  distilled water, and a wetting agent, that's it? I wonder why so much of that Alkyldiol is necessary?

john





--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "pr_roark" <pr_roark@...> wrote:

>
> "john dean" <deanwork2003@> wrote:
> >... 
> > What I'm trying to find out is, what IS the base? 
> >The Vivera base 
> 
> See the HP MSDS for the grey ink at http://www.hp.com/hpinfo/globalcitizenship/environment/productdata/pdf/ij_c9451a_us_eng_v1.pdf
> 
> >and the "C6" base.
> 
> The "C6" base is water, glycerol, Photoflow (propylene glycol and alcohol wetting agents), with Edwal LFN wetting agent (alcohols) optional.
> 
> > I'm suspect of anything that is laid down on the paper changing 
> > or staining over time.
> 
> I agree.  The water and alcohol surfactants will just evaporate.  The glycols will very slowly evaporate from the photo papers -- that's the source of the fog.  The glycerol and glycols appear to have an affinity for cellulose and may just stay in the matte papers forever.
> 
> I've tried to get answers from chemists as to what will happen to them, and I have not had consistent answers.  While none think something bad will happen, the "washed Arches" a couple of us are pursuing is, in part, to get these substances out of the print.
> 
> For the C6 base, I simply used materials there were the most common and safest.  The formula is very close to Epson gloss optimizer.  
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>

John,


> Never heard of 2-prrolidone. and  Triethanolamine.

You can Google much of this and get a picture of what they are doing.

> And there is a chemical called Alkyldiol, that they describe
> as Proprietary. That sounds mysterious.  It accounts for 7.5%

All the really secret stuff is hidden from view. 

Note the small amount of carbon.  Then go and compare their color pigment MSDS.  Where is the pigment?  Hmm ...  

> wetting agent?

You don't need much wetting agent at all -- like 1%.  In my C6 formula the Photo Flo is 10%, but that's becuase it's mostly water and glycol.  It's there for the glycol as much as the weak wetting agent.

>... water making up 80% and the Carbon pigment less than 1% ...

Expensive water.

> So, if you take the HP gray dilute it with gyclol,  
> distilled water, and a wetting agent, that's it? 

I tend toward more glycerol and less glycol (like the Epson glop) -- better specific gravity and lower clogging from what I can see.

> I wonder why so much of that Alkyldiol is necessary?

I think that is a generic description and where they are hiding the color pigs as well as other components they don't want to disclose, (but it's been a while and I'm answering without going back to my notes).

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "pr_roark" <pr_roark@...> wrote:

> 
> > And there is a chemical called Alkyldiol, that they describe
> > as Proprietary. That sounds mysterious.  It accounts for 7.5%
> 
> All the really secret stuff is hidden from view. 
> 

Epson is using some form of this stuff too:
http://www.patents.com/INKJET-RECORDING-METHOD/US20080152828/en-US/

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "pr_roark" <pr_roark@...> wrote:

> 
> > And there is a chemical called Alkyldiol, that they describe
> > as Proprietary. That sounds mysterious.  It accounts for 7.5%
> 
> All the really secret stuff is hidden from view. 


And this one:
http://www.patents.com/Ink-composition/US7427641/en-US/

Looks like Epson has a new ink on the way.

Greg,

It appears that a lot of the focus on the previous Epson patent you linked to has to do with the pigments being able to be received by the rc media. That must be very touchy for a water based solution to hit that plastic surface, build density, and adhere smoothy.

Unless Epson doubles the permanence of their color pigments, I don't care what they do in the future. I'm not spraying them with that deadly and expensive uv spray.

john





--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Greg" <dfaprinting@...> wrote:

>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "pr_roark" <pr_roark@> wrote:
> 
> > 
> > > And there is a chemical called Alkyldiol, that they describe
> > > as Proprietary. That sounds mysterious.  It accounts for 7.5%
> > 
> > All the really secret stuff is hidden from view. 
> 
> 
> And this one:
> http://www.patents.com/Ink-composition/US7427641/en-US/
> 
> Looks like Epson has a new ink on the way.
>

Paul, 

What would happen if you simply used the Vivera glop as a base and didn't add anything to it but the dilute light gray? 

I wish HP had a desktop model of this 12 channel inkset to play with.

john





--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "pr_roark" <pr_roark@...> wrote:

>
> John,
> 
> 
> > Never heard of 2-prrolidone. and  Triethanolamine.
> 
> You can Google much of this and get a picture of what they are doing.
> 
> > And there is a chemical called Alkyldiol, that they describe
> > as Proprietary. That sounds mysterious.  It accounts for 7.5%
> 
> All the really secret stuff is hidden from view. 
> 
> Note the small amount of carbon.  Then go and compare their color pigment MSDS.  Where is the pigment?  Hmm ...  
> 
> > wetting agent?
> 
> You don't need much wetting agent at all -- like 1%.  In my C6 formula the Photo Flo is 10%, but that's becuase it's mostly water and glycol.  It's there for the glycol as much as the weak wetting agent.
> 
> >... water making up 80% and the Carbon pigment less than 1% ...
> 
> Expensive water.
> 
> > So, if you take the HP gray dilute it with gyclol,  
> > distilled water, and a wetting agent, that's it? 
> 
> I tend toward more glycerol and less glycol (like the Epson glop) -- better specific gravity and lower clogging from what I can see.
> 
> > I wonder why so much of that Alkyldiol is necessary?
> 
> I think that is a generic description and where they are hiding the color pigs as well as other components they don't want to disclose, (but it's been a while and I'm answering without going back to my notes).
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>

alkyldiol is a general name for compounds such as ethylene glycol, 
propylene glycol and many other compounds of similar structure.


-------------------------------------------------

From: "john dean" <deanwork2003@...>
Sent: Saturday, August 08, 2009 11:21 PM
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Low gamut pigments

> Thanks Paul,
>
> I can see you've really looked into all this. It's pretty thought 
> provoking.
>
> From that Gray Vivera data sheet they even have the proportions, which is 
> interesting that they would provide that.
>
> Never heard of 2-prrolidone. and  Triethanolamine. Looks like they might 
> be the colorants that neutralize the carbon black. And there is a chemical 
> called Alkyldiol, that they describe as Proprietary. That sounds 
> mysterious.

Apart from inkjet chemistry, what is the primary industrial use of ethylene glycol or propylene glycol? Foolishly, I didn't take chemistry in college.

j




--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce" <brrphotog@...> wrote:

>
> 
> 
> alkyldiol is a general name for compounds such as ethylene glycol, 
> propylene glycol and many other compounds of similar structure.
> 
> 
> -------------------------------------------------
> From: "john dean" <deanwork2003@...>
> Sent: Saturday, August 08, 2009 11:21 PM
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Low gamut pigments
> 
> > Thanks Paul,
> >
> > I can see you've really looked into all this. It's pretty thought 
> > provoking.
> >
> > From that Gray Vivera data sheet they even have the proportions, which is 
> > interesting that they would provide that.
> >
> > Never heard of 2-prrolidone. and  Triethanolamine. Looks like they might 
> > be the colorants that neutralize the carbon black. And there is a chemical 
> > called Alkyldiol, that they describe as Proprietary. That sounds 
> > mysterious.
>

john dean wrote:
> Apart from inkjet chemistry, what is the primary industrial use of ethylene glycol or propylene glycol? Foolishly, I didn't take chemistry in college.
>
> j
>   

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethylene_glycol
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propylene_glycol

Google is your friend.
--
Bruce Watson

The most commonly known is Anti-freeze. 




________________________________

From: john dean <deanwork2003@...>
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, 9 August, 2009 18:52:21
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Low gamut pigments

  
Apart from inkjet chemistry, what is the primary industrial use of ethylene glycol or propylene glycol? Foolishly, I didn't take chemistry in college.

j

--- In DigitalBlackandWhit eThePrint@ yahoogroups. com, "Bruce" <brrphotog@. ..> wrote:
>
> 
> 
> alkyldiol is a general name for compounds such as ethylene glycol, 
> propylene glycol and many other compounds of similar structure.
> 
> 
> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- -
> From: "john dean" <deanwork2003@ ...>
> Sent: Saturday, August 08, 2009 11:21 PM
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhit eThePrint@ yahoogroups. com>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Low gamut pigments
> 
> > Thanks Paul,
> >
> > I can see you've really looked into all this. It's pretty thought 
> > provoking.
> >
> > From that Gray Vivera data sheet they even have the proportions, which is 
> > interesting that they would provide that.
> >
> > Never heard of 2-prrolidone. and Triethanolamine. Looks like they might 
> > be the colorants that neutralize the carbon black. And there is a chemical 
> > called Alkyldiol, that they describe as Proprietary. That sounds 
> > mysterious.
>




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Wikipedia is my friend.

I see, it is used in everything. Everything from pharmacy, to anti-freeze, food, and most importantly in electronic cigarettes to deliver vaporized nicotine. Now that's what I would call a universal industrial compound.

j






--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Watson <bwyg@...> wrote:

>
> john dean wrote:
> > Apart from inkjet chemistry, what is the primary industrial use of ethylene glycol or propylene glycol? Foolishly, I didn't take chemistry in college.
> >
> > j
> >   
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethylene_glycol
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propylene_glycol
> 
> Google is your friend.
> --
> Bruce Watson
>

Wikipedia is my friend.

I see, it is used in everything. Everything from pharmacy, to anti-freeze, food, and most importantly in electronic cigarettes to deliver vaporized nicotine. Now that's what I would call a universal industrial compound.

j






--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Watson <bwyg@...> wrote:

>
> john dean wrote:
> > Apart from inkjet chemistry, what is the primary industrial use of ethylene glycol or propylene glycol? Foolishly, I didn't take chemistry in college.
> >
> > j
> >   
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethylene_glycol
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propylene_glycol
> 
> Google is your friend.
> --
> Bruce Watson
>

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "john dean" <deanwork2003@...> wrote:
>
> I'm not spraying them with that deadly and expensive uv spray.
> 
> john
> 


John, 

There will be safer alternatives, the EU solvents and toxicity measures will make them appear sooner than later.

Check out this link from a brief discussion
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/Hbase/Organic/glycol.html

--------------------------------------------------

From: "john dean" <deanwork2003@...>
Sent: Sunday, August 09, 2009 11:52 AM
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Low gamut pigments

> Apart from inkjet chemistry, what is the primary industrial use of 
> ethylene glycol or propylene glycol? Foolishly, I didn't take chemistry in 
> college.
>
> j
>
>

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce" <brrphotog@...> wrote:
>
> 
> 
> alkyldiol is a general name for compounds such as ethylene glycol, 
> propylene glycol and many other compounds of similar structure.
> 


The glycols are fairly neutral PH, I thought these Alkydiol would probably be reacted with some kind of alkali to form the compound, but I'm just guessing.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "john dean" <deanwork2003@...> wrote:
>
> Wikipedia is my friend.
> 
> I see, it is used in everything. Everything from pharmacy, to anti-freeze, food, and most importantly in electronic cigarettes to deliver vaporized nicotine. Now that's what I would call a universal industrial compound.
> 
> j


Check the ingredients on the next can/bottle of soda pop you drink. Also note that they are all poisonous in certain quantities. Propylene is considered food grade because it is far less toxic than the ethylene. Propylene is made for RV water drains to protect from freezing, ethylene is what you run in your car (unless you choose the more "green/safe" variety).

The word alkyl comes from the name Alkane which is a large class of simple 
linear hydrocarbons.  Ethane and Propane are two of the simplest.
--------------------------------------------------

From: "Greg" <dfaprinting@...>
Sent: Sunday, August 09, 2009 12:53 PM
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Low gamut pigments

> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce" 
> <brrphotog@...> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> alkyldiol is a general name for compounds such as ethylene glycol,
>> propylene glycol and many other compounds of similar structure.
>>

john dean wrote:
> Wikipedia is my friend.
>
> I see, it is used in everything. Everything from pharmacy, to anti-freeze, food, and most importantly in electronic cigarettes to deliver vaporized nicotine. Now that's what I would call a universal industrial compound.
>
> j

Scary isn't it? :-)
--
Bruce Watson

Greg wrote:
> Check the ingredients on the next can/bottle of soda pop you drink. Also note that they are all poisonous in certain quantities. Propylene is considered food grade because it is far less toxic than the ethylene. Propylene is made for RV water drains to protect from freezing, ethylene is what you run in your car (unless you choose the more "green/safe" variety).
>   

You drink that crap? I gave up high fructose corn syrup (HFCS) years 
ago. Just a few days ago I saw an article from an FDA researcher 
(perhaps an ex-researcher; the corporations aren't going to like what 
he/she had to say) saying that HFCS often carries a little mercury with 
it because of how some companies make the lye that is in turn used to 
strip the starch from the corn kernel in the making of HFCS. If I hadn't 
quit already, that would kick me over the edge.

I'm with this smart lady:

http://www.cookforgood.com/

Literally. She's my wife. :-). We've spent more that two years off 
processed foods like sodas. I could really feel the improvement after a 
couple of weeks off the "chemical stew" that is in most of the processed 
food at the local grocery. If you make your own bread, you don't put 
preservatives, artificial colors, artificial flavorings, etc. in it. I'm 
just sayin'.

Now if only I could kick the last highly processed food on my list -- 
chocolate. That promises to be a battle royal.

And if only I could find a B&W inkset I like that would give me a Dmax 
over 2.0 on matte papers and match the longevity of the Cone K7s. Or is 
this yet another joust with yet another windmill?
--
Bruce Watson

"Propylene glycol is used in making polyester compounds and as a solvent in the paint and plastics industries. It is used to create artificial smoke or fog for theatrical uses."

Other names for this compound are methyl glycol and methylethylene glycol.

 I knew I'd head of this stuff somewhere. It's in the Rosco Smoke machines we used to use for special effects. That stuff stunk.

j




--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce" <brrphotog@...> wrote:

>
> Check out this link from a brief discussion
> http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/Hbase/Organic/glycol.html
> 
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "john dean" <deanwork2003@...>
> Sent: Sunday, August 09, 2009 11:52 AM
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Low gamut pigments
> 
> > Apart from inkjet chemistry, what is the primary industrial use of 
> > ethylene glycol or propylene glycol? Foolishly, I didn't take chemistry in 
> > college.
> >
> > j
> >
> >
>

"john dean" <deanwork2003@...> wrote:

> Paul, 
> 
> What would happen if you simply used the Vivera glop as a base 
> and didn't add anything to it but the dilute light gray? 

I don't know, but it would not satisfy the cheap side of me.

If you're going to go with HP pricing, why not just use their LLK?

Note that some have used HP PK diluted with MIS Glop and found that it has less bronzing.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Well the idea was theoretically to create a 6 tone monochrome inkset for the Z3100, not small Epson printers which I have no interest in. There is no LLK in the Vivera set. You have PK, Gray, and Light gray. It is a very, very good tri tone  and uses no composite color pigments, but I was theorizing more very light grays in a PK inkset, run out of Studio Print. On gloss papers like Photorag Baryta, these inks are the perfect neutral color.

j




--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "pr_roark" <pr_roark@...> wrote:

>
> "john dean" <deanwork2003@> wrote:
> 
> > Paul, 
> > 
> > What would happen if you simply used the Vivera glop as a base 
> > and didn't add anything to it but the dilute light gray? 
> 
> I don't know, but it would not satisfy the cheap side of me.
> 
> If you're going to go with HP pricing, why not just use their LLK?
> 
> Note that some have used HP PK diluted with MIS Glop and found that it has less bronzing.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>

"john dean" <deanwork2003@...> wrote:
>
> Well the idea was theoretically to create a 6 tone 
> monochrome inkset for the Z3100,...

Then you would need something like the HP GO to dilute.  I don't know if it has "blanks" in it -- clear pigments -- but it probably does.  They may or may not be a problem.  Thermal printers are much more intolerant of ink characteristics than are the piezo heads.

> There is no LLK in the Vivera set. You have PK, Gray, and 
> Light gray. 

Grey is very close to Epson LK, and Light gray is close to Epson LLK.

> It is a very, very good tri tone  and uses no composite color
> pigments,

I'm quite certain it is, in fact, a blended inkset containing some carbon and a fair amount of color pigments.

It probably gets it's very good Wilhelm rating from the high quality of the color pigments used in the mix, as well as, of course, the carbon.  As a blend of color and carbon, it's an open question whether it's more lightfast than the MIS and Cone B&W inks.

I do agree with you that the HP Z3100/3200 pigments are impressive. 

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

> "john dean" <deanwork2003@> wrote:
> >
> > Well the idea was theoretically to create a 6 tone 
> > monochrome inkset for the Z3100,...
 
> > It is a very, very good tri tone  and uses no composite color
> > pigments,
 
(I earlier wrote:)

> I'm quite certain it is, in fact, a blended inkset containing 
> some carbon and a fair amount of color pigments.
> 
> ...  As a blend of color and carbon, it's an open question
> whether it's more lightfast than the MIS and Cone B&W inks.


We do, in fact, have some preliminary evidence of how the HP Vivera inks do compared to Jon's Piezotones -- and Jon wins.  

The Aardenburg tests include 10 MLux-hr results for both HP and some Cone inks.  This is very early in the cycle, but the preliminary results look good for third party B&W.  Jon's Selenium Piezotone on HPR at the E1 (Lab L 66) and F1 (L 52) midtone densities have a better delta E than the HP set at the closest neutral gray patches (C4 at L 67 and D4 at L 51).  The delta Lab L for the Piezo midtones was 0.4 v. 0.6 for the HP.

Note that the overall scores for the 2 inksets is skewed by the Piezo use of Portfolio K.  As such, I think the relevant comparison is in the midtones, excluding the black and dark gray patches.  Note also that I don't know how much color inks HP also puts into the neutral gray patches.  So, a pure HP gray inkset might do better.  I also have not looked all all of the midtone patches, but I thought the patches I chose were appropriate.  Additionally, I'm not certain the Hahnemuhle papers are exactly the same.  So, there may be some comparability issues, but I think the results do give us some valuable evidence.

So, folks, pony up the Aardenburg membership dues so you can get into the database and see how the third party inks are doing.  It's independent tests like this that might help keep our suppliers in business -- which is very important to the B&W market.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

John... are you running your Z3100 out of StudioPrint? If so, what is the advantage over the native driver?





Rich
www.rmassiephotography.com

-----Original Message-----
From: john dean <deanwork2003@...>
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sun, Aug 9, 2009 11:09 pm
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Low gamut pigments



Well the idea was theoretically to create a 6 tone monochrome inkset for the 
3100, not small Epson printers which I have no interest in. There is no LLK in 
he Vivera set. You have PK, Gray, and Light gray. It is a very, very good tri 
one  and uses no composite color pigments, but I was theorizing more very light 
rays in a PK inkset, run out of Studio Print. On gloss papers like Photorag 
aryta, these inks are the perfect neutral color.
j


-- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "pr_roark" <pr_roark@...> 
rote:

 "john dean" <deanwork2003@> wrote:
 
 > Paul, 
 > 
 > What would happen if you simply used the Vivera glop as a base 
 > and didn't add anything to it but the dilute light gray? 
 
 I don't know, but it would not satisfy the cheap side of me.
 
 If you're going to go with HP pricing, why not just use their LLK?
 
 Note that some have used HP PK diluted with MIS Glop and found that it has 
ess bronzing.
 
 Paul
 www.PaulRoark.com



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

No I am not. Ergo Soft wants a ridiculous amount to upgrade to support it, and even then its so difficult to  profile that they want to make the profiles for you from what I can gather. 12 channels is apparently another world of complexity.

No, it's not necessary unless you were to set up a special inkset like I was dreaming about sometime down the line, OR if you want to profile cymk really well for design work etc. Then it would be worth the trouble. 

I just use the Epson driver and there is Q-Image for ripping digital camera files and printing really long, etc.

j




--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, CorrPro96@... wrote:

>
> 
> 
> 
> John... are you running your Z3100 out of StudioPrint? If so, what is the advantage over the native driver?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rich
> www.rmassiephotography.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: john dean <deanwork2003@...>
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Sun, Aug 9, 2009 11:09 pm
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Low gamut pigments
> 
> 
> 
> Well the idea was theoretically to create a 6 tone monochrome inkset for the 
> 3100, not small Epson printers which I have no interest in. There is no LLK in 
> he Vivera set. You have PK, Gray, and Light gray. It is a very, very good tri 
> one  and uses no composite color pigments, but I was theorizing more very light 
> rays in a PK inkset, run out of Studio Print. On gloss papers like Photorag 
> aryta, these inks are the perfect neutral color.
> j
> 
> 
> -- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "pr_roark" <pr_roark@> 
> rote:
> 
>  "john dean" <deanwork2003@> wrote:
>  
>  > Paul, 
>  > 
>  > What would happen if you simply used the Vivera glop as a base 
>  > and didn't add anything to it but the dilute light gray? 
>  
>  I don't know, but it would not satisfy the cheap side of me.
>  
>  If you're going to go with HP pricing, why not just use their LLK?
>  
>  Note that some have used HP PK diluted with MIS Glop and found that it has 
> ess bronzing.
>  
>  Paul
>  www.PaulRoark.com
> 
> 
> 
> -----------------------------------
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as they 
> re often being updated.
> http://gr
> oups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to 
> nsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page.
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
>  As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them 
> hort.
>  Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. Hostile, 
> ggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership without 
> otice.
>  Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W 
> rinting. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the 
> embership.
>  By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and guidelines, 
> nd to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and Moderators. See 
> Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines” in the Files section:
> ttp://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO! 
> ROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE “OWNER” AND “MODERATORS” OF 
> IGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, 
> NDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT 
> OT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER 
> NTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  “OWNER” AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE 
> RINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), 
> ESULTING=2
> 0FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT 
> AHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR 
> ATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE 
> RINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE 
> RINT YAHOO GROUP.
> ahoo! Groups Links
>    Individual Email | Traditional
>    http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

> > I'm quite certain it is, in fact, a blended inkset containing
> > some carbon and a fair amount of color pigments.


Yes, I think you are right they are carbon mixed with other pigments, probably
other black pigments, however it's not easy to know what else is in there .
They're certainly not going to tell us. Jon is saying that carbon can be
altered on the molecular level to create other than sepia results as well. Now
this WAY out of my league in knowledge to have any idea what he is talking
about. Hp has designed the entire Vivera set to all fade equally, which is no
mean feat if it's totally true. So, toned and neutral prints all fade the same,
theoretically. That, along with the neutral gray is way beyond Epson and Canon.

By Vivera not using composite color for monochrome I meant you are printing all
values with the same "gray" ink, not mixing bits of cyan and light magenta and
yellow on the fly from other inks, in other parts of the tonal scale in
different amounts, like say Epson ABW does. That's bad in my opinion. And, I've
never ever believed that mixing inks in a solution and mixing them out of the
nozzles on the paper equates to the same thing. But we've debated this to death
over the years.
> >
> > ... As a blend of color and carbon, it's an open question
> > whether it's more lightfast than the MIS and Cone B&W inks.

I always assumed Piezography and the MIS sets that use only carbon would
outperform Vivera, maybe by a lot, and with 4, 6, or 7 shades instead of 3 they
are more subtle in high values, absolutely. I've done a lot of side by side
tests and Vivera has a deeper black but Piezography K7 is much more 3
dimensional and delicate all over. Sometimes it's image dependent. But your
right, that is exactly why we need someone like Aardenburg to actually have
impartial evidence by someone who is not on the payroll of any of the companies.
>
>
> We do, in fact, have some preliminary evidence of how the HP Vivera inks do
compared to Jon's Piezotones -- and Jon wins.


I saw that. Piezography carbon is still NOT showing signs of fading last time I
looked on that site. It is going to take awhile to even measure any fade at all.
That is Carbon PIezo Black, not Portfolio Black which has dye in it and has
already shown a weakness, and despite it's beautiful dmax, I'm still afraid to
use it.


The Vivera MK is giving a dmax of 1.8 on Photorag and 2.45 on gloss, but
despite its really good stability, I wouldn't expect it to be in the longevity
class of pure carbon like K7, which I totally love and use as my primary mono
insets. The Vivera print color is really closer to selenium on Photorag, but
neutral on most of the gloss fiber papers like Photorag Baryta. But, you can
tone it if you want to. I normally don't.


> So, folks, pony up the Aardenburg membership dues so you can get into the
database and see how the third party inks are doing. It's independent tests
like this that might help keep our suppliers in business -- which is very
important to the B&W market.


Oh man you said it! Everybody on this list needs to join now. Someone needs to
get this man a grant. He totally deserves it and is invaluable to the entire
serious global black and white community.


John

www.deanimaging.com

john dean schreef:
> So  could one create a Hextone inkset made of diluted Vivera grays and put it in a Z3100 for super PK output? That's what I've been thinking about for awhile, and possibly using the additonal channels for gloss enhancer and split toning hues like red and blue and yellow. Putting thermal inks like that in a Piezzo printer sounds a little scary.
> 
> What does one dilute Vivera Gray with?
> 
> john

John, It would be nice. Perfect automatic head maintenance. Heads that 
can be replaced at an affordable price when needed.
But what driver will do the partitioning, linearisation, color toning 
and in the end the printing?
It is very unlikely that curves in PS and the HP driver (in Paul Roark's 
style) will deliver any quality improvement.
Even with a RIP like the Wasatch SoftRip like I used for a 9000 quad you 
still have no control on the 3 or 4 K inks separately, it still is a 
black box to the user. QTR doesn't have HP printer support and even 
GutenPrint is way behind with its Designjet drivers.

The B9180, Z3100 and Z3200 do a very good job in B&W printing, right out 
of the box. Better in my opinion than the Epson and Canon out of the box 
solutions. Beyond that you have to look for Epson hardware, QTR and 
K6-7-8 solutions with or without HP inks. That is the result of the 
front runner's role of Epson in the past,  the influence this list had 
and the R&D efforts of maybe 10 people in the last 10 years  to get 
better digital B&W printing. It will be difficult to repeat that again 
for the other printer brands. As I understand it also will be difficult 
for the x900 Epson printers.  If I recall it correctly the Bowhaus shop 
tried something for the Canons but I have not seen any sign of it in 
practice. Jon Cone and Canons is another vague memory.


-- 
Met vriendelijke groeten,   Ernst


Dinkla Gallery Canvas Wrap Actions

|      Dinkla Grafische Techniek      |
|         www.pigment-print.com        |
|                 ( unvollendet )                 |

Ernst,

Well actually Studio Print already supports the Z3200 series in cymk and rgb, and it is ready to go for partitioning, ink limiting, etc.  I'm convinced that isn't the problem. The dilution of the inks theoretically would work if the base is right, also to provide 3 more grays. 

If I had money t throw around,  which I definitely don't now in this economy, I'd do it in a 24" machine just to test the idea. However, my results with all the permutations of Piezo K7 on matt papers does not make me want to rush into doing this kind of work primarily on baryta papers, though it would be fun as an alternative. And as you say  with good papers now on the Z now they are pretty damn good, not the best thing on earth in the higher values, but very good.


john






--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Ernst Dinkla <edinkla@...> wrote:

>
> john dean schreef:
> > So  could one create a Hextone inkset made of diluted Vivera grays and put it in a Z3100 for super PK output? That's what I've been thinking about for awhile, and possibly using the additonal channels for gloss enhancer and split toning hues like red and blue and yellow. Putting thermal inks like that in a Piezzo printer sounds a little scary.
> > 
> > What does one dilute Vivera Gray with?
> > 
> > john
> 
> John, It would be nice. Perfect automatic head maintenance. Heads that 
> can be replaced at an affordable price when needed.
> But what driver will do the partitioning, linearisation, color toning 
> and in the end the printing?
> It is very unlikely that curves in PS and the HP driver (in Paul Roark's 
> style) will deliver any quality improvement.
> Even with a RIP like the Wasatch SoftRip like I used for a 9000 quad you 
> still have no control on the 3 or 4 K inks separately, it still is a 
> black box to the user. QTR doesn't have HP printer support and even 
> GutenPrint is way behind with its Designjet drivers.
> 
> The B9180, Z3100 and Z3200 do a very good job in B&W printing, right out 
> of the box. Better in my opinion than the Epson and Canon out of the box 
> solutions. Beyond that you have to look for Epson hardware, QTR and 
> K6-7-8 solutions with or without HP inks. That is the result of the 
> front runner's role of Epson in the past,  the influence this list had 
> and the R&D efforts of maybe 10 people in the last 10 years  to get 
> better digital B&W printing. It will be difficult to repeat that again 
> for the other printer brands. As I understand it also will be difficult 
> for the x900 Epson printers.  If I recall it correctly the Bowhaus shop 
> tried something for the Canons but I have not seen any sign of it in 
> practice. Jon Cone and Canons is another vague memory.
> 
> 
> -- 
> Met vriendelijke groeten,   Ernst
> 
> 
> Dinkla Gallery Canvas Wrap Actions
> 
> |      Dinkla Grafische Techniek      |
> |         www.pigment-print.com        |
> |                 ( unvollendet )                 |
>

Another much simpler approach might be to simply eliminate the green channel
altogether and replace it with a LLL Gray. You don't really need the green. Cyan
and Blue can do the job. Then you would have a true equally spaced quad set and
a total color set to do rgb work with, but only out of Studio Print.

You are going to see people doing stuff like this with the 12 channel sets on
both Cannon and HP. Remember I said that :-). I mean look at what people have
been doing for a long time with the 12 channel Rolands and the DaVinci rip by
ErgoSoft, which is an essentially 12 channel Studio Print.

john

www.deanimaging.com