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Dedicatd B&W printer - is it worth it?

Dedicatd B&W printer - is it worth it?

2009-09-02 by flashinet

Hello everybody,

I'm fine art photographer working mainly with black and white. I print my own photographs on Epson 7900 using ABW driver and like the results, I also exhibit my prints. 
Still I'm reading about dedicated B&W printers and monochrome inks like Paleography or MIS and I'm worried that I'm missing something in quality .  
I've made some research and figured that I can give it a try by buying Epson 1400 printer and UT14 inks.

But the question is: Is it worth it? Is quality going to be so much better so it's worth all this money and trouble?

Thanks you very much,
Jacob Mann

website: http://www.photo3dart.com
blog: http://photo3dart.com/wordpress

Re: [Digital BW] Dedicatd B&W printer - is it worth it?

2009-09-02 by Mark Savoia

Absolutely


Mark
http://www.stillrivereditions.com
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Sep 2, 2009, at 2:28 PM, flashinet wrote:

> But the question is: Is it worth it? Is quality going to be so much  
> better so it's worth all this money and trouble?

Re: [Digital BW] Dedicatd B&W printer - is it worth it?

2009-09-02 by tboleyyh

Without question, and I wonder how this "money and trouble" myth keeps perpetuating, aren't we about done with that?
Most of the systems these days are plug and play, with competitive ink prices, and have been for some time.

Tyler
http://www.custom-digital.com/

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Mark Savoia <mark@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> Absolutely
> 
> 
> Mark
> http://www.stillrivereditions.com
> 
> On Sep 2, 2009, at 2:28 PM, flashinet wrote:
> 
> > But the question is: Is it worth it? Is quality going to be so much  
> > better so it's worth all this money and trouble?
>

Re: [Digital BW] Dedicatd B&W printer - is it worth it?

2009-09-02 by C D Tobie

On Sep 2, 2009, at 2:45 PM, tboleyyh wrote:

> Without question, and I wonder how this "money and trouble" myth  
> keeps perpetuating, aren't we about done with that?
> Most of the systems these days are plug and play, with competitive  
> ink prices, and have been for some time.

Apparently you have a very tolerant definition of plug and play, if  
QuadTone RIP or a Continuous Ink System is part of that plug and play  
system... ;-)

If its prefilled carts and the RGB driver, then yes, it might be  
almost plug and play. But thats not the usual situation...

C. David Tobie
Global Product Technology Manager
Digital Imaging & Home Theater
CDTobie@...


  ----------


Datacolor
www.datacolor.com/Spyder3



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Dedicatd B&W printer - is it worth it?

2009-09-02 by Mark Savoia

Tyler is just VERY talented :)

Mark
http://www.stillrivereditions.com
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Sep 2, 2009, at 3:00 PM, C D Tobie wrote:

>
> On Sep 2, 2009, at 2:45 PM, tboleyyh wrote:
>
>> Without question, and I wonder how this "money and trouble" myth
>> keeps perpetuating, aren't we about done with that?
>> Most of the systems these days are plug and play, with competitive
>> ink prices, and have been for some time.
>
> Apparently you have a very tolerant definition of plug and play, if
> QuadTone RIP or a Continuous Ink System is part of that plug and play
> system... ;-)
>
> If its prefilled carts and the RGB driver, then yes, it might be
> almost plug and play. But thats not the usual situation...
>
> C. David Tobie

Re: [Digital BW] Dedicatd B&W printer - is it worth it?

2009-09-02 by deanwork2003

A child should be able to achieve excellent results with QTR these days. And if you are not using Epson inks  ( you know the ones that clog more than any others and eat a whole in the wallet) then it is a logical path to use the funnel fill carts, buy in in bulk, that save me time AND money.

john




--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Mark Savoia <mark@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> Tyler is just VERY talented :)
> 
> Mark
> http://www.stillrivereditions.com
> 
> On Sep 2, 2009, at 3:00 PM, C D Tobie wrote:
> 
> >
> > On Sep 2, 2009, at 2:45 PM, tboleyyh wrote:
> >
> >> Without question, and I wonder how this "money and trouble" myth
> >> keeps perpetuating, aren't we about done with that?
> >> Most of the systems these days are plug and play, with competitive
> >> ink prices, and have been for some time.
> >
> > Apparently you have a very tolerant definition of plug and play, if
> > QuadTone RIP or a Continuous Ink System is part of that plug and play
> > system... ;-)
> >
> > If its prefilled carts and the RGB driver, then yes, it might be
> > almost plug and play. But thats not the usual situation...
> >
> > C. David Tobie
>

Re: [Digital BW] Dedicatd B&W printer - is it worth it?

2009-09-02 by C D Tobie

On Sep 2, 2009, at 4:34 PM, deanwork2003 wrote:

> A child should be able to achieve excellent results with QTR these  
> days

Possibly. Whether that child could figure out how to configure and use  
it is another matter!

C. David Tobie
Global Product Technology Manager
Digital Imaging & Home Theater
CDTobie@...


  ----------


Datacolor
www.datacolor.com/Spyder3



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Dedicatd B&W printer - is it worth it?

2009-09-02 by CorrPro96@aol.com

Send an email to Inkjetmall and ask for samples of both piezotone and piezo 
 K7 prints. Take a good look at the tones and transitions and then decide.
 
Rich
_www.rmassiephotography.com_ (http://www.rmassiephotography.com) 
 
 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Dedicatd B&W printer - is it worth it?

2009-09-02 by Tony Wells

Hello,

Tony Wells, from the UK here, seeking to join in this discussion after re-joining the Group after a long layoff, if I may, please.

I have had troubles with all of the commercial contemptibles I have used, albeit with colours not matching from batch to batch form the same supplier. I have also had clogged nozzles with them as well though, so I have actually gone back to using Epson's own inks. Having read here recently that someone was still having trouble with their CIS clogging, is it a function of the inks or of Epson's head design please? I for one would gladly use third party inks if they were both totally consistent, without noticeable colour casts every time I changed a cartridge (or ink bottle), and if they really did keep going. In fairness to Epson, I usually use my newish printer every few days these days, for general document printing as well as for my photographs, and it seems to be fairly reliable, certainly more so than my precious ones.

Thank you.

TonyW.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: deanwork2003 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Wednesday, September 02, 2009 9:34 PM
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Dedicatd B&W printer - is it worth it?


    
  A child should be able to achieve excellent results with QTR these days. And if you are not using Epson inks ( you know the ones that clog more than any others and eat a whole in the wallet) then it is a logical path to use the funnel fill carts, buy in in bulk, that save me time AND money.

  john


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Dedicatd B&W printer - is it worth it?

2009-09-02 by tboleyyh

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, C D Tobie <CDTobie@...> wrote:
...
> Apparently you have a very tolerant definition of plug and play, if  
> QuadTone RIP or a Continuous Ink System is part of that plug and play  
> system... ;-)

...
does the ;-) mean you are joking? Because it is, there is no configuring. At least with the systems I've helped set up, it's a snap. I'm sure there are also systems that are not, but for an initial non system specific question I think that's very fair, and I'm unfamiliar with whatever those more problematic may be.
Additionally, I've had entry level folks print with the OEM inks, outside the scope of this thread, with QTR in minutes. No configuring, in fact I don't even know how to get under the QTR hood any more.
I'll grant you that I'm not experienced with the current generation of CISs, but since the clatter about the hassles seems to have disapeared over the last few years I assume they are working out for people pretty well.

One other thing I will say, to play my own devil's advocate. Some people either can not see the difference in the prints, or are unconcerned with the differences. This poster sounded like he is a fairly serious B&W worker.
Tyler

Re: Dedicatd B&W printer - is it worth it?

2009-09-03 by pr_roark

"flashinet" <flashinet@...> wrote:
>
> I'm fine art photographer working mainly with black and white.
> I print my own photographs on Epson 7900 using ABW driver and 
> like the results, I also exhibit my prints. 

> Still I'm reading about dedicated B&W printers ...
> I'm worried that I'm missing something in quality .  
> I've made some research and figured that I can give it a 
> try by buying Epson 1400 printer and UT14 inks.

> But the question is: Is it worth it? ...

Whether its "worth" dealing with third party inks depends a lot on one's interests and criteria.  For me, the OEM approaches are not worth it.  But I have several personal goals that push me in the directions I go.  Some are quality related, but one is simply taking the road less traveled.

The OEM entrance into the B&W field with K3 systems, I assume, took most of the market, and I'm sure most people are perfectly satisfied with the results.  But the dedicated B&W approaches continue to serve several significant market segments.  

The inksets I've designed, some of which are sold by MIS (no royalties to me -- I'm just a customer) serve several different market segments and personal goals.  At one end and as a matter of principle, I want those on restricted budgets to have excellent B&W, easily, and at very low cost. The C88+ "EZ" system is at this end of the spectrum.  Yet the C88+ with the 100% carbon inks can produce a print that I believe to be more stable than anything the OEM systems can produce. 

The UT14 was aimed at making a variable tone inkset that could print on matte and glossy paper without changing inks, giving people who are interested in exploring B&W more seriously a very affordable 13" platform to easily experiment with different tones and papers.  It's what I think of as today's version of the UT2 which was made for the 1280. Yet on my 1400, I have not run UT14 for quite some time.  I use an inkset on the 1400 that serves the specific needs that I have.  
(See http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Eb1400.pdf)


My personal B&W fine art printing, such as I was doing all day on an old 7500, is strictly 100% carbon -- Eboni-6 or Carbon-6.  In part as a matter of principal, I simply will not have color inks in my workflow any more.  For most people the color inks in the "Advanced B&W" mode will probably never be of any consequence, but I don't want them in my work for a number of reasons.

The Eboni-6 or Carbon-6 inksets I use do have some quirks that make them more touchy in some respects, but less so in others.  One size does not fit all.  

I recently purchased a used 7800 and fully intend to use that platform for 100% carbon printing -- likely with a home made (dirt cheap) CIS (positive air pressure should make CISs work better easier).  So, between a user-made CIS and user mixed inks, the used K3 (and K2, maybe without the CIS) printers should be able to make B&W prints at a fraction the cost of the 7900, and they should have un-paralleled image stability. 

I'm hopeful that the 8 carbon inks and QTR will allow me to print on Arches uncoated watercolor paper more smoothly and with a better dmax than the OEM approaches, and 100% carbon on Arches is about as close to my "carbon on cotton" ideal medium as I think I can get.  (And it's going to be a lot of fun exploring tinting & painting with watercolors with my painter as well as photographer friends.)  

So, it's clearly "worth it" to me to do what I do, and the OEM approaches are not "worth it" -- to me.  

I hesitate to recommend what I do to others.  I'm just pursuing my particular ideals and goals, and having too many follow me on the road less traveled is not necessarily a positive result, but I will nonetheless make what I come up with public.  I think it advances the medium and its acceptance, and that does help me.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Re: [Digital BW] Dedicatd B&W printer - is it worth it?

2009-09-03 by yaakovsinclair

I just installed an Epson 4800 ( I got it for the price of a 3880 from
my dealer - I guess because it's so unfriendly to swap color and matte)

The quality of the b and w is on a par with Piezography -- and you can
vary the tint.

I don't know if there will be color shifts in different light. Could be.
Put aside the cost of the inks, and unless you are doing a lot of
dedicated B and W, the flexibility of having a color printer that prints
superb b and w is worth it. BTW I always found Epson inks letter cloggy
than others.

Re: [Digital BW] Dedicatd B&W printer - is it worth it?

2009-09-03 by C D Tobie

On Sep 2, 2009, at 5:46 PM, tboleyyh wrote:

> One other thing I will say, to play my own devil's advocate. Some  
> people either can not see the difference in the prints, or are  
> unconcerned with the differences. This poster sounded like he is a  
> fairly serious B&W worker.


Thats really the crux of the matter, Tyler, not "is it easy" but "do I  
want it"... the parenthetical part being: "want it badly enough to go  
through whatever learning curve and efforts are required."

C. David Tobie
Global Product Technology Manager
Digital Imaging & Home Theater
CDTobie@...


  ----------


Datacolor
www.datacolor.com/Spyder3



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: Dedicatd B&W printer - is it worth it?

2009-09-03 by Seth Rossman

You beat me to it, Dave.

HOWEVER, if you're not running Eboni in the MK slot, you are missing a lot.

Seth


      ===============================


      Posted by: "C D Tobie" CDTobie@...
      <mailto:CDTobie@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20Dedicatd%20B%26W%20printer%20-%20is%20it%20worth%20it%3F>
        cdtobie <http://profiles.yahoo.com/cdtobie>


        Wed Sep 2, 2009 12:01 pm (PDT)

Apparently you have a very tolerant definition of plug and play, if
QuadTone RIP or a Continuous Ink System is part of that plug and play
system... ;-)

If its prefilled carts and the RGB driver, then yes, it might be
almost plug and play. But thats not the usual situation...


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: Dedicatd B&W printer - is it worth it?

2009-09-03 by benjschneider2

Use an Epson R1900 or R1800 and have both matte color and dedicated B&W in one printer using QuadTone RIP.  I had problems with the older versions of this RIP but the latest seems to work very well.  I have been trying this new version for the last week and a half, and am finding it easy to use, and makes a very good print.  

Because the color ink is still in the printer, there are sliders in the print menu to make the print many shades cooler, or sepia.  It will also print a good matte color print.

I have given up with CIS.  I now use refillable ink cartridges, but replace the chips with original spent OEM cartridges and reset them at each filling.  Much more reliability that way.  I have also found a way of modifying the OEM cartridges so they can be made refillable.

I have been using MIS inks, which work well as long as you use them regularly.  They will clog if the printer sets a spell.  I have been thinking of switching this 3K printer back to all OEM inks by replacing the chips on Matte black cartridges with gloss black and GO cartridges, and cutting off the indexing tags on the cartridge so they will work in these slots. The OEM inks seldom clog, even if the printer sets for a month.

The biggest limitation is the 13" width limitation.  But still, I would never want to try to print B&W on a stock printer again.  The difference in quality is just too great.

Ben



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "flashinet" <flashinet@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> Thanks everybody, I decided to give it a try. After all it's only $200 for the printer and $100 inks (just don't tell my wife).
> 
> I'll keep you posted.
> 
> Jacob
> 
> http://www.photo3dart.com
>

Re: [Digital BW] Dedicatd B&W printer - is it worth it?

2009-09-03 by deanwork2003

That's a  bit of a distortion. There is no real "learning curve" unless you are mentally challenged. 

A learning curve is trying to make clean neutral monochrome out of ABW that won't shift in color over time. 

So, the answer is yes, its definitely worth the trouble.

john





--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, C D Tobie <CDTobie@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> 
> On Sep 2, 2009, at 5:46 PM, tboleyyh wrote:
> 
> > One other thing I will say, to play my own devil's advocate. Some  
> > people either can not see the difference in the prints, or are  
> > unconcerned with the differences. This poster sounded like he is a  
> > fairly serious B&W worker.
> 
> 
> Thats really the crux of the matter, Tyler, not "is it easy" but "do I  
> want it"... the parenthetical part being: "want it badly enough to go  
> through whatever learning curve and efforts are required."
> 
> C. David Tobie
> Global Product Technology Manager
> Digital Imaging & Home Theater
> CDTobie@...
> 
> 
>   ----------
> 
> 
> Datacolor
> www.datacolor.com/Spyder3
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Re: [Digital BW] Dedicatd B&W printer - is it worth it?

2009-09-03 by Walker Blackwell

The whole reason why I went dedicated bw back when I was just learning  
all this was because I didn't want to deal with complicated CMYK  
profiles and the RGB drivers just weren't up to snuff. Over the years  
I realized more and more that CMYK ink mixed into a grayscale print  
just doesn't physically work very well. QTR gets it almost their with  
its various tonal splits. Colorburst can get there with custom RGB  
Input and CMYK output profiles.  But the amount of time spent setting  
up a quality color-ink-to-bw setup has always been 4 times as long as  
dedicated Quad-split or K7. And much more complicated.

Dedicated is worth is. And you get way better physical (real-world)  
resolution with K7 dedicated. Just look at Tyler's blog for that. The  
difference between dedicated and CMYK is the same to me as the  
difference between BW on c-paper and BW on silver paper. No contest.

That said, there are times when I like the wide-open toning options  
available in a well built CMYK grayscale environment.

Walker



On Sep 3, 2009, at 9:40 AM, deanwork2003 wrote:

> That's a bit of a distortion. There is no real "learning curve"  
> unless you are mentally challenged.
>
> A learning curve is trying to make clean neutral monochrome out of  
> ABW that won't shift in color over time.
>
> So, the answer is yes, its definitely worth the trouble.
>
> john
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, C D Tobie  
> <CDTobie@...> wrote:
> >
> >
> > On Sep 2, 2009, at 5:46 PM, tboleyyh wrote:
> >
> > > One other thing I will say, to play my own devil's advocate. Some
> > > people either can not see the difference in the prints, or are
> > > unconcerned with the differences. This poster sounded like he is a
> > > fairly serious B&W worker.
> >
> >
> > Thats really the crux of the matter, Tyler, not "is it easy" but  
> "do I
> > want it"... the parenthetical part being: "want it badly enough to  
> go
> > through whatever learning curve and efforts are required."
> >
> > C. David Tobie
> > Global Product Technology Manager
> > Digital Imaging & Home Theater
> > CDTobie@...
> >
> >
> > ----------
> >
> >
> > Datacolor
> > www.datacolor.com/Spyder3
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>
> 

Walker Blackwell
802.735.0621
www.walkerblackwell.com
aim: greendirtblues





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Dedicatd B&W printer - is it worth it?

2009-09-03 by BKPhoto@aol.com

Walker wrote:



Colorburst can get there with custom RGB  
Input and CMYK output profiles.  But the amount of time spent setting  
up a quality color-ink-to-bw setup has always been 4 times as long as  
dedicated Quad-split or K7. And much more complicated.



I couldn't agree more. We've been using ColorBurst for about five years now; currently with a 9800/ConeColor ink set-up and our old trusty 4000/OEM inks. You an achieve neutral grayscale printing with these set-ups, but you have to know a lot about profiling, and have professional profiling software/hardware to do it. It's a sound approach for anyone wanting to tunnel that deep into color management. In my opinion, this is not a good approach for those wishing to work on the prosumer level. It also doesn't negate any issues related to CMYK+ ink fade/shift over time; it just allows you to produce a neutral grayscale print with a color ink set.



I don't want to offend anyone on this list but I find that threads like this are repeatedly rooted in the difference between working on a consumer or prosumer level versus working on a professional level. The current OEM printing solutions are so much better than what we had to work with just a few years ago. QTR, out of the box, has opened up an easily implemented alternative. It's up to each worker to pick their sweet spot, and master an approach that makes best sense to them. I don't think it serves anyone's best interest to confuse what can be accomplished on the prosumer20level with the potential that exists beyond that.




Paul wrote:




"I'm hopeful that the 8 carbon inks and QTR will allow me to print on Arches uncoated watercolor paper more smoothly and with a better dmax than the OEM approaches, and 100% carbon on Arches is about as close to my "carbon on cotton" ideal medium as I think I can get. (And it's going to be a lot of fun exploring tinting & painting with watercolors with my painter as well as photographer friends.)"




We've printed large editions using our 9800/ConeColor/ColorBurst set-up on Arches BFK uncoated. Really beautiful, but with a "soft" black. Very appropriate for some work. Paul, you are aware that BFK is now available coated for inkjet? I think this paper is one of the best yet. I really love it for both color and dedicated grayscale printing (we're using a 9600/K7 Sepia set-up). It's my choice for printing my own work. Contact Jim or Mary at Shades of Paper for information.







Bill Kennedy

K2 Press, Inc.

Austin, Texas
Show quoted textHide quoted text
-----Original Message-----

From: Walker Blackwell <forums@...>

To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Thu, Sep 3, 2009 8:58 am

Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Dedicatd B&W printer - is it worth it?











The whole reason why I went dedicated bw back when I was just learning  
all this was because I didn't want to deal with complicated CMYK  
profiles and the RGB drivers just weren't up to snuff. Over the years  
I realized mor
e and more that CMYK ink mixed into a grayscale print  
just doesn't physically work very well. QTR gets it almost their with  
its various tonal splits. Colorburst can get there with custom RGB  
Input and CMYK output profiles.  But the amount of time spent setting  
up a quality color-ink-to-bw setup has always been 4 times as long as  
dedicated Quad-split or K7. And much more complicated.

Dedicated is worth is. And you get way better physical (real-world)  
resolution with K7 dedicated. Just look at Tyler's blog for that. The  
difference between dedicated and CMYK is the same to me as the  
difference between BW on c-paper and BW on silver paper. No contest.

That said, there are times when I like the wide-open toning options  
available in a well built CMYK grayscale environment.

Walker



On Sep 3, 2009, at 9:40 AM, deanwork2003 wrote:

> That's a bit of a distortion. There is no real "learning curve"  
> unless you are mentally challenged.
>
> A learning curve is trying to make clean neutral monochrome out of  
> ABW that won't shift in color over time.
>
> So, the answer is yes, its definitely worth the trouble.
>
> john
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, C D Tobie  
> <CDTobie@...> wrote:
> >
> >
> > On Sep 2, 2009, at 5:46 PM, tboleyyh wrote:
> >
> > > One other thing I will say, to play my own devil's advocate. Some
> > > people either can not see the difference in the prints, or are
> > > unconcer
ned with the differences. This poster sounded like he is a
> > > fairly serious B&W worker.
> >
> >
> > Thats really the crux of the matter, Tyler, not "is it easy" but  
> "do I
> > want it"... the parenthetical part being: "want it badly enough to  
> go
> > through whatever learning curve and efforts are required."
> >
> > C. David Tobie
> > Global Product Technology Manager
> > Digital Imaging & Home Theater
> > CDTobie@...
> >
> >
> > ----------
> >
> >
> > Datacolor
> > www.datacolor.com/Spyder3
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>
> 

Walker Blackwell
802.735.0621
www.walkerblackwell.com
aim: greendirtblues





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE 
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PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Dedicatd B&W printer -- Arches

2009-09-03 by pr_roark

Hi Bill,

> ...

> We've printed large editions using our 9800/ConeColor/ColorBurst set-up on Arches BFK uncoated. Really beautiful, but with a "soft" black. ...

I'm not sure I'm familiar with the BFK variant of Arches (or Rives).  I tested a number of  the Arches and other brands of uncoated papers, the Arches Hot Press (and Cold Press if  you like texture) had the best dmax.  The watercolorists I work with like it for its relatively high color gamut.  It is more heavily sized and calendared than many of the softer papers.  Have you compared the 2 apparently different papers?  

Getting a good dmax on the Arches with the 7800 is an open question.  It initially had a terrible  one, but it turned out the Epson MK had badly settled.  Between that and the lower dmax (on Arches) of the Epson MK  v. Eboni MK, I still have hopes  that I'll  be able  to hit the mid  to high 1.50s with the 7800.  The best I've seen with Arches HP is 1.63 with the 1400, but that is not a normal, expected value.  Mid to high 1.50s, however, is normal and below that I'd start to have trouble.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Re: Dedicatd B&W printer -- Arches

2009-09-03 by peter_desmidt

Visiting the ShadesofPaper website, I couldn't tell if any of the listed papers were the coated ones Bill was talking up.

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Dedicatd B&W printer -- Arches

2009-09-03 by Mark Savoia

Call them, they are full of knowledge.

Mark
http://www.stillrivereditions.com
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Sep 3, 2009, at 2:24 PM, peter_desmidt wrote:

> Visiting the ShadesofPaper website, I couldn't tell if any of the  
> listed papers were the coated ones Bill was talking up.

RE: [Digital BW] Re: Dedicatd B&W printer -- Arches

2009-09-03 by Jim Doyle

All the papers on our site are coated for Inkjet!! Questions Call me!
 
Jim Doyle
 
Shades Of Paper
717-H Fellowship Rd
Mt. Laurel NJ 08054
856-787-9200
www.shadesofpaper.com
AOL IM: Brokerup99 
 
 
            
 
 
 
 
________________________________
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mark
Savoia
Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2009 2:30 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Dedicatd B&W printer -- Arches
 
  
Call them, they are full of knowledge.

Mark
http://www.stillrivereditions.com <http://www.stillrivereditions.com> 

On Sep 3, 2009, at 2:24 PM, peter_desmidt wrote:

> Visiting the ShadesofPaper website, I couldn't tell if any of the 
> listed papers were the coated ones Bill was talking up.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Dedicatd B&W printer -- Arches

2009-09-03 by BKPhoto@aol.com

Paul-



I don' t have dMax figures for you on the various papers we've tried, sorry. Give me a day or two and I might be able to forward to you the figures on BFK coated and uncoated, as I know we have those environments saved in ColorBurst.




I enjoy printing on watercolor papers; I'm constantly experimenting. Sizing definitely makes helps.




Bill K.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
-----Original Message-----
From: pr_roark <pr_roark@...>
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thu, Sep 3, 2009 1:21 pm
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Dedicatd B&W printer -- Arches


























    

                  
Hi Bill,



> ...



> We've printed large editions using our 9800/ConeColor/ColorBurst set-up on Arches BFK uncoated. Really beautiful, but with a "soft" black. ...



I'm not sure I'm familiar with the BFK variant of Arches (or Rives).  I tested a number of  the Arches and other brands of uncoated papers, the Arches Hot Press (and Cold Press if  you like texture) had the best dmax.  The watercolorists I work with like it for its relatively high color gamut.  It is more heavily sized and calendared than many of the softer papers.  Have you compared the 2 apparently different papers?  



Getting a good dmax on the Arches with the 7800 is an open question.  It initially had a terrible  one, but it turned out the Epson MK had badly settled.  Between that and the lower dmax (on Arches) of the Epson=2
0MK  v. Eboni MK, I still have hopes  that I'll  be able  to hit the mid  to high 1.50s with the 7800.  The best I've seen with Arches HP is 1.63 with the 1400, but that is not a normal, expected value.  Mid to high 1.50s, however, is normal and below that I'd start to have trouble.



Paul

www.PaulRoark.com  





 

    
  

    
    


    
    
    
    


    


    
    
    
    
    


 






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Dedicatd B&W printer -- Arches

2009-09-03 by deanwork2003

We used to size BFK for gum prints and multiple registration silkscreens by dissolving a couple of small packets of Knocks Gelatin in about a gallon of hot water. Then you soak the paper for about 5 minutes and hang up to dry. It is a very good non acidic invisible but durable coating. The problem is you have to flatten out the sheets after drying. We used a dry mount press for that.

john




--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, BKPhoto@... wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> Paul-
> 
> 
> 
> I don' t have dMax figures for you on the various papers we've tried, sorry. Give me a day or two and I might be able to forward to you the figures on BFK coated and uncoated, as I know we have those environments saved in ColorBurst.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I enjoy printing on watercolor papers; I'm constantly experimenting. Sizing definitely makes helps.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bill K.
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: pr_roark <pr_roark@...>
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Thu, Sep 3, 2009 1:21 pm
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Dedicatd B&W printer -- Arches
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>     
> 
>                   
> Hi Bill,
> 
> 
> 
> > ...
> 
> 
> 
> > We've printed large editions using our 9800/ConeColor/ColorBurst set-up on Arches BFK uncoated. Really beautiful, but with a "soft" black. ...
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not sure I'm familiar with the BFK variant of Arches (or Rives).  I tested a number of  the Arches and other brands of uncoated papers, the Arches Hot Press (and Cold Press if  you like texture) had the best dmax.  The watercolorists I work with like it for its relatively high color gamut.  It is more heavily sized and calendared than many of the softer papers.  Have you compared the 2 apparently different papers?  
> 
> 
> 
> Getting a good dmax on the Arches with the 7800 is an open question.  It initially had a terrible  one, but it turned out the Epson MK had badly settled.  Between that and the lower dmax (on Arches) of the Epson=2
> 0MK  v. Eboni MK, I still have hopes  that I'll  be able  to hit the mid  to high 1.50s with the 7800.  The best I've seen with Arches HP is 1.63 with the 1400, but that is not a normal, expected value.  Mid to high 1.50s, however, is normal and below that I'd start to have trouble.
> 
> 
> 
> Paul
> 
> www.PaulRoark.com  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
>     
>   
> 
>     
>     
> 
> 
>     
>     
>     
>     
> 
> 
>     
> 
> 
>     
>     
>     
>     
>     
> 
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Re: [Digital BW] Dedicatd B&W printer -- Arches

2009-09-03 by deanwork2003

We used to size BFK for gum prints and multiple registration silkscreens by dissolving a couple of small packets of Knocks Gelatin in about a gallon of hot water. Then you soak the paper for about 5 minutes and hang up to dry. It is a very good non acidic invisible but durable coating. The problem is you have to flatten out the sheets after drying. We used a dry mount press for that.

john




--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, BKPhoto@... wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> Paul-
> 
> 
> 
> I don' t have dMax figures for you on the various papers we've tried, sorry. Give me a day or two and I might be able to forward to you the figures on BFK coated and uncoated, as I know we have those environments saved in ColorBurst.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I enjoy printing on watercolor papers; I'm constantly experimenting. Sizing definitely makes helps.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bill K.
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: pr_roark <pr_roark@...>
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Thu, Sep 3, 2009 1:21 pm
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Dedicatd B&W printer -- Arches
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>     
> 
>                   
> Hi Bill,
> 
> 
> 
> > ...
> 
> 
> 
> > We've printed large editions using our 9800/ConeColor/ColorBurst set-up on Arches BFK uncoated. Really beautiful, but with a "soft" black. ...
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not sure I'm familiar with the BFK variant of Arches (or Rives).  I tested a number of  the Arches and other brands of uncoated papers, the Arches Hot Press (and Cold Press if  you like texture) had the best dmax.  The watercolorists I work with like it for its relatively high color gamut.  It is more heavily sized and calendared than many of the softer papers.  Have you compared the 2 apparently different papers?  
> 
> 
> 
> Getting a good dmax on the Arches with the 7800 is an open question.  It initially had a terrible  one, but it turned out the Epson MK had badly settled.  Between that and the lower dmax (on Arches) of the Epson=2
> 0MK  v. Eboni MK, I still have hopes  that I'll  be able  to hit the mid  to high 1.50s with the 7800.  The best I've seen with Arches HP is 1.63 with the 1400, but that is not a normal, expected value.  Mid to high 1.50s, however, is normal and below that I'd start to have trouble.
> 
> 
> 
> Paul
> 
> www.PaulRoark.com  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
>     
>   
> 
>     
>     
> 
> 
>     
>     
>     
>     
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>     
> 
> 
>     
>     
>     
>     
>     
> 
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Re: Dedicatd B&W printer - is it worth it?

2009-09-03 by andrevallejo

Please help me to understand this:
I can see that dedicated solutions like MIS inks will beat usual OEM solutions easily. But what about this new printers like the Epson 2800 or Hp Z3000 that have the 2 blacks plus 2 grays and use 3 of them to make the prints? (meaning nutral prints only). Since we know only 3 shades are necessary to print smooth BW,why a dedicated printer would do any better?
Who has experience with the 2880 using MIS empty chipped cartridges and K4 inks? Any significant differences for a dedicated system. And going this way can I print with just the black/gray inks with no color inks being throwed on the paper? I do have ColorByte PrintFix to make the profiles...
I ask because after many years I'm about to change my 1160/FSN for something new, 13"is enough for me, and I want to print color sometimes... And the choosing is torturing me...(OEM inks are not a choice...)
André

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Dedicatd B&W printer - is it worth it?

2009-09-03 by Walker Blackwell

1. Much of the dedicated BW is now hex and septone not quadtone. This  
increase in nozzles and over-lap makes environment setups much easier.
2. When using K only through epson the ink is actually brown and you  
can't get the correct hue + not enough nozzles.
3. You are right, HPZs offer a pretty nice grayscale but if you look  
at the detail (compare an 8x10 from an HPZ to an 8x10 from the  
darkroom to 2880 septone from an Epson) you're loosing stuff in the  
tritone print. If you are coming from the darkroom and getting into  
digital, it's actually step down in quality. But K7 is less of a step  
down in resolution and might be a step up in tonal depth. It's a  
different beast, but that's kinda how I look at it.

My whole point is, if you are the type of person who is interested in  
medium format or large format, if you are interested in fine art  
papers, if you are interested in this physicality, then K7 or  
something similar might work very well for your creativity. But it's  
not for everyone. I do a lot of proofs on K3 on 4800s using QTR to  
tell you the truth. It's because my 9600 is a bastard of a printer to  
get sweet at the moment (it's old and needs a new head next week) and  
my 4000 split quad is in Chicago.

Walker


On Sep 3, 2009, at 4:13 PM, andrevallejo wrote:

> Please help me to understand this:
> I can see that dedicated solutions like MIS inks will beat usual OEM  
> solutions easily. But what about this new printers like the Epson  
> 2800 or Hp Z3000 that have the 2 blacks plus 2 grays and use 3 of  
> them to make the prints? (meaning nutral prints only). Since we know  
> only 3 shades are necessary to print smooth BW,why a dedicated  
> printer would do any better?
>
'






> Who has experience with the 2880 using MIS empty chipped cartridges  
> and K4 inks? Any significant differences for a dedicated system. And  
> going this way can I print with just the black/gray inks with no  
> color inks being throwed on the paper? I do have ColorByte PrintFix  
> to make the profiles...
> I ask because after many years I'm about to change my 1160/FSN for  
> something new, 13"is enough for me, and I want to print color  
> sometimes... And the choosing is torturing me...(OEM inks are not a  
> choice...)
> Andr�
>
>
> 

Walker Blackwell
802.735.0621
www.walkerblackwell.com
aim: greendirtblues





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Dedicatd B&W printer - is it worth it?

2009-09-03 by Michael King

>>But K7 is less of a step down in resolution

If you go for a 1.5pl printer (Epson R1900, 1800, 1400) then you get the
resolution as well as the tonal depth.
I run a couple R1900s and they are fantastic with K7. Only limitation is 13"
width. But mounted that's not such a limitation.

Mike

2009/9/3 Walker Blackwell <forums@...>

> 1. Much of the dedicated BW is now hex and septone not quadtone. This
> increase in nozzles and over-lap makes environment setups much easier.
> 2. When using K only through epson the ink is actually brown and you
> can't get the correct hue + not enough nozzles.
> 3. You are right, HPZs offer a pretty nice grayscale but if you look
> at the detail (compare an 8x10 from an HPZ to an 8x10 from the
> darkroom to 2880 septone from an Epson) you're loosing stuff in the
> tritone print. If you are coming from the darkroom and getting into
> digital, it's actually step down in quality. But K7 is less of a step
> down in resolution and might be a step up in tonal depth. It's a
> different beast, but that's kinda how I look at it.
>
> My whole point is, if you are the type of person who is interested in
> medium format or large format, if you are interested in fine art
> papers, if you are interested in this physicality, then K7 or
> something similar might work very well for your creativity. But it's
> not for everyone. I do a lot of proofs on K3 on 4800s using QTR to
> tell you the truth. It's because my 9600 is a bastard of a printer to
> get sweet at the moment (it's old and needs a new head next week) and
> my 4000 split quad is in Chicago.
>
> Walker
>
>
> On Sep 3, 2009, at 4:13 PM, andrevallejo wrote:
>
> > Please help me to understand this:
> > I can see that dedicated solutions like MIS inks will beat usual OEM
> > solutions easily. But what about this new printers like the Epson
> > 2800 or Hp Z3000 that have the 2 blacks plus 2 grays and use 3 of
> > them to make the prints? (meaning nutral prints only). Since we know
> > only 3 shades are necessary to print smooth BW,why a dedicated
> > printer would do any better?
> >
> '
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Who has experience with the 2880 using MIS empty chipped cartridges
> > and K4 inks? Any significant differences for a dedicated system. And
> > going this way can I print with just the black/gray inks with no
> > color inks being throwed on the paper? I do have ColorByte PrintFix
> > to make the profiles...
> > I ask because after many years I'm about to change my 1160/FSN for
> > something new, 13"is enough for me, and I want to print color
> > sometimes... And the choosing is torturing me...(OEM inks are not a
> > choice...)
> > Andr�
> >
> >
> >
>
> Walker Blackwell
> 802.735.0621
> www.walkerblackwell.com
> aim: greendirtblues
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
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>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Dedicatd B&W printer -- Arches

2009-09-03 by siiaam

Hello Paul,

after reading your post I believe my Epson 3800 with K3 ink is not well settled for printing on uncoated Arches (hot pressed) paper.
My settings are:

Watercolor
ABW: dark
color density: +20%

I am not even getting a Dmax of 1,40.

Do you have any suggestions on improvement?
Thanks in advance.

Stephan

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "pr_roark" <pr_roark@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> Hi Bill,
> 
> > ...
> 
> > We've printed large editions using our 9800/ConeColor/ColorBurst set-up on Arches BFK uncoated. Really beautiful, but with a "soft" black. ...
> 
> I'm not sure I'm familiar with the BFK variant of Arches (or Rives).  I tested a number of  the Arches and other brands of uncoated papers, the Arches Hot Press (and Cold Press if  you like texture) had the best dmax.  The watercolorists I work with like it for its relatively high color gamut.  It is more heavily sized and calendared than many of the softer papers.  Have you compared the 2 apparently different papers?  
> 
> Getting a good dmax on the Arches with the 7800 is an open question.  It initially had a terrible  one, but it turned out the Epson MK had badly settled.  Between that and the lower dmax (on Arches) of the Epson MK  v. Eboni MK, I still have hopes  that I'll  be able  to hit the mid  to high 1.50s with the 7800.  The best I've seen with Arches HP is 1.63 with the 1400, but that is not a normal, expected value.  Mid to high 1.50s, however, is normal and below that I'd start to have trouble.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>

Re: Dedicatd B&W printer - is it worth it?

2009-09-03 by deanwork2003

I use the HP Z3100 daily and it does the best job with black and white imaging that I've ever used, EXCEPT for a dedicated monochrome inkset. Personally I use Cone K7 neutral and carbon sepia and the quad sets are great too. It is not possible to achieve this level of subtlety with one black and two grays. Though there are prints that you can't tell the difference on, many you can. And if you shoot 4x5 like I do and have the values to print you can do it.  I'm sure the MIS pigments of 4 or more dilutions are more subtle also,  just haven't used them. Since  Paul took that over they became much more feasible. 

 Also, as Walker pointed out, the Piezography K7 has higher resolution potential and clog free base. 

Now the Z3100 Vivera pigments have a better dmax, of 1.8 on Photorag vs 1.67 K7, AND unlike Epson you have neutralish grays on photo papers ( selenium tone on photorag )  so you can to a tritone with NO color channels involved at all. And, you can print on the new baryta papers successfully. In that way hue consistency throughout the scale on all papers is a no brainer. If HP had put one more gray in that 12 ink set up they could have kicked ass. They chose to include a green and blue instead for some odd reason. Maybe if they come out with an update to the Z3200 in a few years they will consider that. They don't need the green but they do need another light gray in my opinion.

John

Re: Dedicatd B&W printer - is it worth it?

2009-09-04 by the_mark_pv

I am clearly mentally challenged ;)

I do appreciate QTR is a great tool, but I did not manage to fully grasp it yet.

And I'm referring to the profiling / curve creation part.

Marco

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "deanwork2003" <deanwork2003@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> That's a  bit of a distortion. There is no real "learning curve" unless you are mentally challenged. 
> 
> A learning curve is trying to make clean neutral monochrome out of ABW that won't shift in color over time. 
> 
> So, the answer is yes, its definitely worth the trouble.
> 
> john
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, C D Tobie <CDTobie@> wrote:
> >
> > 
> > On Sep 2, 2009, at 5:46 PM, tboleyyh wrote:
> > 
> > > One other thing I will say, to play my own devil's advocate. Some  
> > > people either can not see the difference in the prints, or are  
> > > unconcerned with the differences. This poster sounded like he is a  
> > > fairly serious B&W worker.
> > 
> > 
> > Thats really the crux of the matter, Tyler, not "is it easy" but "do I  
> > want it"... the parenthetical part being: "want it badly enough to go  
> > through whatever learning curve and efforts are required."
> > 
> > C. David Tobie
> > Global Product Technology Manager
> > Digital Imaging & Home Theater
> > CDTobie@
> > 
> > 
> >   ----------
> > 
> > 
> > Datacolor
> > www.datacolor.com/Spyder3
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>

Re: Dedicatd B&W printer - is it worth it?

2009-09-04 by andrevallejo

Thanks John,Mike nd Walker for your thoughts...very enlightning...gave me a lot to think about...and I do have to before I make a commitment, 'cose I'm so far away from the media and ink resources...(I live in Brazil...). One chip in a cartridge that fails is a nightmare...
best,
André

Re: Dedicatd B&W printer - is it worth it?

2009-09-04 by deanwork2003

I believe we were talking about Piezo K7, and in that case the curves are expertly created for you for the more modern Epson printers and come loaded with QTR. Since there is no color involved, soft proofing create ICC  profiles are also not necessary. So, in that way it is a plug and play set up and even easier than ABW.

john






--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "the_mark_pv" <QTRIP_grp@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> I am clearly mentally challenged ;)
> 
> I do appreciate QTR is a great tool, but I did not manage to fully grasp it yet.
> 
> And I'm referring to the profiling / curve creation part.
> 
> Marco
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "deanwork2003" <deanwork2003@> wrote:
> >
> > That's a  bit of a distortion. There is no real "learning curve" unless you are mentally challenged. 
> > 
> > A learning curve is trying to make clean neutral monochrome out of ABW that won't shift in color over time. 
> > 
> > So, the answer is yes, its definitely worth the trouble.
> > 
> > john
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, C D Tobie <CDTobie@> wrote:
> > >
> > > 
> > > On Sep 2, 2009, at 5:46 PM, tboleyyh wrote:
> > > 
> > > > One other thing I will say, to play my own devil's advocate. Some  
> > > > people either can not see the difference in the prints, or are  
> > > > unconcerned with the differences. This poster sounded like he is a  
> > > > fairly serious B&W worker.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Thats really the crux of the matter, Tyler, not "is it easy" but "do I  
> > > want it"... the parenthetical part being: "want it badly enough to go  
> > > through whatever learning curve and efforts are required."
> > > 
> > > C. David Tobie
> > > Global Product Technology Manager
> > > Digital Imaging & Home Theater
> > > CDTobie@
> > > 
> > > 
> > >   ----------
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Datacolor
> > > www.datacolor.com/Spyder3
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> >
>

Re: [Digital BW] Dedicatd B&W printer -- Arches

2009-09-04 by pr_roark

"siiaam" <s-i-a-m@...> wrote:
>
> Hello Paul,
> 
> after reading your post I believe my Epson 3800 with K3 ink is not well settled for printing on uncoated Arches (hot pressed) paper.
> My settings are:
> 
> Watercolor
> ABW: dark
> color density: +20%
> 
> I am not even getting a Dmax of 1,40.
> 
> Do you have any suggestions on improvement?
> Thanks in advance.
> 
> Stephan

Eboni MK seems to print with a better dmax.  It looks even  better than the numbers suggest due to its more neutral tone.  At the weak dmax Epson MK gets on Arches, it is visibly brownish in my view.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Re: Dedicatd B&W printer - is it worth it?

2009-09-04 by pr_roark

"the_mark_pv" <QTRIP_grp@...> wrote:


> I do appreciate QTR is a great tool, but I did not manage 
> to fully grasp it yet.
> 
> And I'm referring to the profiling / curve creation part.

I wrote up a very brief description starting on page 7 of http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Eb1400.pdf that deals with the normal partitioned curve creation.  I've tried to keep it simple. It might be of value to some who are trying to learn QTR.

The inkset involved was one I use in the 1400 and used for demonstration purposes at this year's Golden Trout Photo Workshop, but the procedures would apply for most monotone inksets.  

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Re: Dedicatd B&W printer - is it worth it?

2009-09-08 by unnytg

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "pr_roark" <pr_roark@...> wrote:
> 
> Whether its "worth" dealing with third party inks depends a lot on one's interests and criteria.  For me, the OEM approaches are not worth it.  But I have several personal goals that push me in the directions I go.  Some are quality related, but one is simply taking the road less traveled.
> 
> The OEM entrance into the B&W field with K3 systems, I assume, took most of the market, and I'm sure most people are perfectly satisfied with the results.  But the dedicated B&W approaches continue to serve several significant market segments.  
> 
> The inksets I've designed, some of which are sold by MIS (no royalties to me -- I'm just a customer) serve several different market segments and personal goals.  At one end and as a matter of principle, I want those on restricted budgets to have excellent B&W, easily, and at very low cost. The C88+ "EZ" system is at this end of the spectrum.  Yet the C88+ with the 100% carbon inks can produce a print that I believe to be more stable than anything the OEM systems can produce. 
> 
> The UT14 was aimed at making a variable tone inkset that could print on matte and glossy paper without changing inks, giving people who are interested in exploring B&W more seriously a very affordable 13" platform to easily experiment with different tones and papers.  It's what I think of as today's version of the UT2 which was made for the 1280. Yet on my 1400, I have not run UT14 for quite some time.  I use an inkset on the 1400 that serves the specific needs that I have.  
> (See http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Eb1400.pdf)
> 
> 
> My personal B&W fine art printing, such as I was doing all day on an old 7500, is strictly 100% carbon -- Eboni-6 or Carbon-6.  In part as a matter of principal, I simply will not have color inks in my workflow any more.  For most people the color inks in the "Advanced B&W" mode will probably never be of any consequence, but I don't want them in my work for a number of reasons.
> 
> The Eboni-6 or Carbon-6 inksets I use do have some quirks that make them more touchy in some respects, but less so in others.  One size does not fit all.  
> 
> I recently purchased a used 7800 and fully intend to use that platform for 100% carbon printing -- likely with a home made (dirt cheap) CIS (positive air pressure should make CISs work better easier).  So, between a user-made CIS and user mixed inks, the used K3 (and K2, maybe without the CIS) printers should be able to make B&W prints at a fraction the cost of the 7900, and they should have un-paralleled image stability. 
> 
> I'm hopeful that the 8 carbon inks and QTR will allow me to print on Arches uncoated watercolor paper more smoothly and with a better dmax than the OEM approaches, and 100% carbon on Arches is about as close to my "carbon on cotton" ideal medium as I think I can get.  (And it's going to be a lot of fun exploring tinting & painting with watercolors with my painter as well as photographer friends.)  
> 
> So, it's clearly "worth it" to me to do what I do, and the OEM approaches are not "worth it" -- to me.  
> 
> I hesitate to recommend what I do to others.  I'm just pursuing my particular ideals and goals, and having too many follow me on the road less traveled is not necessarily a positive result, but I will nonetheless make what I come up with public.  I think it advances the medium and its acceptance, and that does help me.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>

I have been following Paul's black and white odeyssey a while now and wholeheartedly agree with his ideals and goals. I am committed to pure Carbon black printing on archival, pure cotton papers with no brightening agents added.  I use a C88+ with Eboni MK at 100% in the K position and diluted to 2%, 40%, and 15% in the C, M, Y positions respectively.  For dilutions, I use the generic base described by Paul at his website.  The paper is Arches hot pressed watercolour (smooth) that I buy from an arts store as large sheets for around $5 per sheet, and cut to size (C88+ can print upto 8.5" x 44").  For software I use Gutenprint with Cinepaint (16 bit printing) on NetBSD, or home-made ACV curves on CS4 to adjust ink densities with the help of an X-rite 880 colour-densitometer.  Gutenprint gives me complete control over ink mappings at the nozzle level (which can get a bit messy if you make a mistake!).
The matte only prints I get are quite satisfactory with subtle tone differences depending on how I partition the the three dilutions.  I just bought an R1900 from Epson refurbished and am in the process of replacing all the eight carts with generic Hong Kong carts and pure carbon ink at various dilutions - am debating whether to put eight dilutions for matte only or maybe put a couple for glossy along with the rest for glossy/matte.
I got inspired by Paul's adventures in pure carbon printing, so I say, thank you Paul and don't stop!
Unny

Re: Dedicatd B&W printer - is it worth it?

2009-09-09 by flashinet

I'm back to report my first experience with monochrome printing.
I've bought brand new Epson 1400 from OfficeMax for $200 and MIS UT14 inks. Today I had finally got inks and here the fun started.

Early in the day I've prepared some prints on my Epson 7900 on Hahnemuhle Photo Rag printed with ABW driver and QTR created profiles.

When I've got 1400 working I've printed the gray wedge, measured it after drying and made a profile. The I've printer wedge using profile and compared it to 7900 printed wedge. I can't display Excel graph here but I'll try to give the numbers, it's luminosity
Epson   Epson
1440     7900

96.67	96.88
94.3	95.64
92.06	94.2
89.43	92
87.24	90.82
84.94	89.2
82.01	87.26
79.26	85.9
76.65	84.25
73.55	82.34
70.27	80.58
68.07	79.14
65.43	76.9
63.34	75.55
61.61	73.95
59.45	71.82
57.22	70.41
55.66	68.7
53.68	66.89
51.33	65.16
49.63	63.42
47.56	61.34
46.02	59.76
44.51	58.04
42.26	55.87
40.67	54.37
39.31	52.58
37.18	50.79
35.78	48.9
34.82	47.03
33.55	44.81
33.19	43.26
32.75	41.26
31.64	39.26
31.39	37.66
30.82	35.62
29.79	33.82
29.53	31.95
29.18	30.25
28.17	28.4
27.91	26.97
27.49	25.4
26.63	23.77
26.53	22.5
26.01	21.51
25.14	20.52
24.57	19.28
23.92	18.9
22.79	18.35
22.32	17.9
16.34	17.2

AS you see 7900 has much better linearity.

Then I've printed out 4 images on 1400 to compare with prints from 7900. When I compared prints (dark, light and mid-tone images) I didn't see them different enough to speak about. Pretty much the same. Which is not a bad thing for $200 printer to give quality on a par with $4000 printer.  

My 7900 does have problems with darks, some images have more details 
on screen than on prints and I hoped monochrome inks would improve it, but no luck. May be QTR curves will improve it?
Jacob Mann
 
 website: http://www.photo3dart.com
 blog: http://photo3dart.com/wordpress


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "flashinet" <flashinet@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> Hello everybody,
> 
> I'm fine art photographer working mainly with black and white. I print my own photographs on Epson 7900 using ABW driver and like the results, I also exhibit my prints. 
> Still I'm reading about dedicated B&W printers and monochrome inks like Paleography or MIS and I'm worried that I'm missing something in quality .  
> I've made some research and figured that I can give it a try by buying Epson 1400 printer and UT14 inks.
> 
> But the question is: Is it worth it? Is quality going to be so much better so it's worth all this money and trouble?
> 
> Thanks you very much,
> Jacob Mann
> 
> website: http://www.photo3dart.com
> blog: http://photo3dart.com/wordpress
>

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Dedicatd B&W printer - is it worth it?

2009-09-09 by Kip Babington

Where did you find a 1400 for $200?  The Office Max site I checked says 
they're $299.  Is there a coupon out there that's available?

Cheers,
Kip

flashinet wrote:
>  
>
> I'm back to report my first experience with monochrome printing.
> I've bought brand new Epson 1400 from OfficeMax for $200 and MIS UT14 
> inks. Today I had finally got inks and here the fun started.
>
> <snip>
>
> __,_._,_


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: Dedicatd B&W printer - is it worth it?

2009-09-09 by pr_roark

"flashinet" <flashinet@...> wrote:
>
> ... Epson 1400 ... MIS UT14 inks. ...
> 
> Early in the day I've prepared some prints on my Epson 7900 
> on Hahnemuhle Photo Rag printed with ABW driver and QTR 
> created profiles.
 
> When I've got 1400 working I've printed the gray wedge, measured
> it after drying and made a profile. The I've printer wedge 
> using profile and compared it to 7900 printed wedge. ...
>  7900 has much better linearity.

I pulled an old UT14 file (Kirkland) and looked at the print Lab L.  It's posted with the 7900 Lab L results here:
http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/1400-7900.jpg

They look about like they should for a Gray Gamma 2.2 workspace.

The Lab L results you posted do not look like an ICC was loaded and working.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> 
> Then I've printed out 4 images on 1400 to compare with prints from 7900. When I compared prints (dark, light and mid-tone images) I didn't see them different enough to speak about. Pretty much the same. Which is not a bad thing for $200 printer to give quality on a par with $4000 printer.  
> 
> My 7900 does have problems with darks, some images have more details 
> on screen than on prints and I hoped monochrome inks would improve it, but no luck. May be QTR curves will improve it?
> Jacob Mann
>  
>  website: http://www.photo3dart.com
>  blog: http://photo3dart.com/wordpress
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "flashinet" <flashinet@> wrote:
> >
> > Hello everybody,
> > 
> > I'm fine art photographer working mainly with black and white. I print my own photographs on Epson 7900 using ABW driver and like the results, I also exhibit my prints. 
> > Still I'm reading about dedicated B&W printers and monochrome inks like Paleography or MIS and I'm worried that I'm missing something in quality .  
> > I've made some research and figured that I can give it a try by buying Epson 1400 printer and UT14 inks.
> > 
> > But the question is: Is it worth it? Is quality going to be so much better so it's worth all this money and trouble?
> > 
> > Thanks you very much,
> > Jacob Mann
> > 
> > website: http://www.photo3dart.com
> > blog: http://photo3dart.com/wordpress
> >
>

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Dedicatd B&W printer - is it worth it?

2009-09-09 by Michael King

>>My 7900 does have problems with darks, some images have more details
on screen than on prints and I hoped monochrome inks would improve it, but
no luck. May be QTR curves will improve it?

to get 7900 ABW soft proofing (monitor vs print) matching you need to
generate a QTR Create ICC profile for each paper you use and use that to
soft proof and to print from gamma 2.2 images. Also I would use the neutral
rather than dark setting in ABW driver as this gives better darks. Also your
monitor should be profiled and not too bright (max 80 cd/m2) and your b&w
prints should be viewed under a bright light. I don't think you will improve
darks with QTR curves - the ABW driver is pretty good with nice dithering,
better to focus on getting that working properly.

Mike
2009/9/9 flashinet <flashinet@...>

>
>
> I'm back to report my first experience with monochrome printing.
> I've bought brand new Epson 1400 from OfficeMax for $200 and MIS UT14 inks.
> Today I had finally got inks and here the fun started.
>
> Early in the day I've prepared some prints on my Epson 7900 on Hahnemuhle
> Photo Rag printed with ABW driver and QTR created profiles.
>
> When I've got 1400 working I've printed the gray wedge, measured it after
> drying and made a profile. The I've printer wedge using profile and compared
> it to 7900 printed wedge. I can't display Excel graph here but I'll try to
> give the numbers, it's luminosity
> Epson Epson
> 1440 7900
>
> 96.67 96.88
> 94.3 95.64
> 92.06 94.2
> 89.43 92
> 87.24 90.82
> 84.94 89.2
> 82.01 87.26
> 79.26 85.9
> 76.65 84.25
> 73.55 82.34
> 70.27 80.58
> 68.07 79.14
> 65.43 76.9
> 63.34 75.55
> 61.61 73.95
> 59.45 71.82
> 57.22 70.41
> 55.66 68.7
> 53.68 66.89
> 51.33 65.16
> 49.63 63.42
> 47.56 61.34
> 46.02 59.76
> 44.51 58.04
> 42.26 55.87
> 40.67 54.37
> 39.31 52.58
> 37.18 50.79
> 35.78 48.9
> 34.82 47.03
> 33.55 44.81
> 33.19 43.26
> 32.75 41.26
> 31.64 39.26
> 31.39 37.66
> 30.82 35.62
> 29.79 33.82
> 29.53 31.95
> 29.18 30.25
> 28.17 28.4
> 27.91 26.97
> 27.49 25.4
> 26.63 23.77
> 26.53 22.5
> 26.01 21.51
> 25.14 20.52
> 24.57 19.28
> 23.92 18.9
> 22.79 18.35
> 22.32 17.9
> 16.34 17.2
>
> AS you see 7900 has much better linearity.
>
> Then I've printed out 4 images on 1400 to compare with prints from 7900.
> When I compared prints (dark, light and mid-tone images) I didn't see them
> different enough to speak about. Pretty much the same. Which is not a bad
> thing for $200 printer to give quality on a par with $4000 printer.
>
> My 7900 does have problems with darks, some images have more details
> on screen than on prints and I hoped monochrome inks would improve it, but
> no luck. May be QTR curves will improve it?
> Jacob Mann
>
> website: http://www.photo3dart.com
> blog: http://photo3dart.com/wordpress
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com<DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint%40yahoogroups.com>,
> "flashinet" <flashinet@...> wrote:
> >
> > Hello everybody,
> >
> > I'm fine art photographer working mainly with black and white. I print my
> own photographs on Epson 7900 using ABW driver and like the results, I also
> exhibit my prints.
> > Still I'm reading about dedicated B&W printers and monochrome inks like
> Paleography or MIS and I'm worried that I'm missing something in quality .
> > I've made some research and figured that I can give it a try by buying
> Epson 1400 printer and UT14 inks.
> >
> > But the question is: Is it worth it? Is quality going to be so much
> better so it's worth all this money and trouble?
> >
> > Thanks you very much,
> > Jacob Mann
> >
> > website: http://www.photo3dart.com
> > blog: http://photo3dart.com/wordpress
> >
>
> 
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Digital BW] Re: Dedicatd B&W printer - is it worth it?

2009-09-09 by flashinet

Today was QTR day and to my surprise it wasn't too bad, I had pretty bad experience with QTR on mac, on PC it's much better thanks to qtrgui and curve creator apps. So I made warm and cold curves, 21 step wedge turned out very linear, then I printed nice prints. They are still not better than prints from 7900. Still I like the whole process, to be able to change so many things like ink limits and tones, it's nice to have a little printer for smaller prints. Ink is going pretty fast, I'm almost out of my first set of cartridges if I can trust Epson utility. So I've ordered Ebony 6 set, refillable, let's see how this will turn out. It's still cheaper than Epson 7900 inks.

About darks. I use Eizo monitor carefully calibrated with Eye-One pro,  brightness at 80, color temperature at 5200. My both printers compress darks with all drivers - ABW, rgb, QTR. I have to balance making images marginally too bright on screen but risking to loose highlights. May be it's just printer's dynamic range not as big as monitor's.

Jacob
 website: http://www.photo3dart.com
 blog: http://photo3dart.com/wordpress



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Michael King <drmrking@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> >>My 7900 does have problems with darks, some images have more details
> on screen than on prints and I hoped monochrome inks would improve it, but
> no luck. May be QTR curves will improve it?
> 
> to get 7900 ABW soft proofing (monitor vs print) matching you need to
> generate a QTR Create ICC profile for each paper you use and use that to
> soft proof and to print from gamma 2.2 images. Also I would use the neutral
> rather than dark setting in ABW driver as this gives better darks. Also your
> monitor should be profiled and not too bright (max 80 cd/m2) and your b&w
> prints should be viewed under a bright light. I don't think you will improve
> darks with QTR curves - the ABW driver is pretty good with nice dithering,
> better to focus on getting that working properly.
> 
> Mike
> 2009/9/9 flashinet <flashinet@...>
> 
> >
> >
> > I'm back to report my first experience with monochrome printing.
> > I've bought brand new Epson 1400 from OfficeMax for $200 and MIS UT14 inks.
> > Today I had finally got inks and here the fun started.
> >
> > Early in the day I've prepared some prints on my Epson 7900 on Hahnemuhle
> > Photo Rag printed with ABW driver and QTR created profiles.
> >
> > When I've got 1400 working I've printed the gray wedge, measured it after
> > drying and made a profile. The I've printer wedge using profile and compared
> > it to 7900 printed wedge. I can't display Excel graph here but I'll try to
> > give the numbers, it's luminosity
> > Epson Epson
> > 1440 7900
> >
> > 96.67 96.88
> > 94.3 95.64
> > 92.06 94.2
> > 89.43 92
> > 87.24 90.82
> > 84.94 89.2
> > 82.01 87.26
> > 79.26 85.9
> > 76.65 84.25
> > 73.55 82.34
> > 70.27 80.58
> > 68.07 79.14
> > 65.43 76.9
> > 63.34 75.55
> > 61.61 73.95
> > 59.45 71.82
> > 57.22 70.41
> > 55.66 68.7
> > 53.68 66.89
> > 51.33 65.16
> > 49.63 63.42
> > 47.56 61.34
> > 46.02 59.76
> > 44.51 58.04
> > 42.26 55.87
> > 40.67 54.37
> > 39.31 52.58
> > 37.18 50.79
> > 35.78 48.9
> > 34.82 47.03
> > 33.55 44.81
> > 33.19 43.26
> > 32.75 41.26
> > 31.64 39.26
> > 31.39 37.66
> > 30.82 35.62
> > 29.79 33.82
> > 29.53 31.95
> > 29.18 30.25
> > 28.17 28.4
> > 27.91 26.97
> > 27.49 25.4
> > 26.63 23.77
> > 26.53 22.5
> > 26.01 21.51
> > 25.14 20.52
> > 24.57 19.28
> > 23.92 18.9
> > 22.79 18.35
> > 22.32 17.9
> > 16.34 17.2
> >
> > AS you see 7900 has much better linearity.
> >
> > Then I've printed out 4 images on 1400 to compare with prints from 7900.
> > When I compared prints (dark, light and mid-tone images) I didn't see them
> > different enough to speak about. Pretty much the same. Which is not a bad
> > thing for $200 printer to give quality on a par with $4000 printer.
> >
> > My 7900 does have problems with darks, some images have more details
> > on screen than on prints and I hoped monochrome inks would improve it, but
> > no luck. May be QTR curves will improve it?
> > Jacob Mann
> >
> > website: http://www.photo3dart.com
> > blog: http://photo3dart.com/wordpress
> >
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com<DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint%40yahoogroups.com>,
> > "flashinet" <flashinet@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hello everybody,
> > >
> > > I'm fine art photographer working mainly with black and white. I print my
> > own photographs on Epson 7900 using ABW driver and like the results, I also
> > exhibit my prints.
> > > Still I'm reading about dedicated B&W printers and monochrome inks like
> > Paleography or MIS and I'm worried that I'm missing something in quality .
> > > I've made some research and figured that I can give it a try by buying
> > Epson 1400 printer and UT14 inks.
> > >
> > > But the question is: Is it worth it? Is quality going to be so much
> > better so it's worth all this money and trouble?
> > >
> > > Thanks you very much,
> > > Jacob Mann
> > >
> > > website: http://www.photo3dart.com
> > > blog: http://photo3dart.com/wordpress
> > >
> >
> > 
> >
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

[Digital BW] Re: Dedicatd B&W printer - is it worth it?

2009-09-12 by andrevallejo

Amazon, just bought one...

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Kip Babington <cbabing3@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> Where did you find a 1400 for $200?  The Office Max site I checked says 
> they're $299.  Is there a coupon out there that's available?
> 
> Cheers,
> Kip
> 
> flashinet wrote:
> >  
> >
> > I'm back to report my first experience with monochrome printing.
> > I've bought brand new Epson 1400 from OfficeMax for $200 and MIS UT14 
> > inks. Today I had finally got inks and here the fun started.
> >
> > <snip>
> >
> > __,_._,_
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

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