Digital BW, The Print

----- Original Message -----

From: "Robert Morrison" <rmorrison@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, August 19, 2002 4:41 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Imageprint


> The reason to use Imageprint is better image quality and profiles on
demand.
> Imageprint print quality is vastly superior to piezo plugin peformance.
The
> profiles are much better (cleaner and smoother).  The final output has
less
> noise and as a result the image look sharper. It is similar to
> piezopro...but Imageprint is making custom profiles for the new piezotone
> inks as well as the MIS FS and FS-N inks...which are not identical to the
> original Cone inks which piezopro was made for.  You will also get
> 2200/7600/9600 support which makes printing reasonable BW images with the
> new epson printers possible. It also runs on a mac and pc...while piezo
pro
> runs on a PC.  In addition it is only $500 for a desktop version while it
> runs $1500 to get into piezopro.  The large format version is $1500.

The 7600/9600 Imageprint version should have a price above $ 2500,- AFAIK.

The term 'custom profiles' should be used for profiles for a
colourspace/ink/paper combination on a unique printer. It is a good thing
that a lot of profiles are included for popular ink/paper sets but a 'custom
profile' is of course better. So every purchaser can get a profile/profiles
for the system he uses when he delivers printed targets ? That's included in
the price ?

Ernst

I just spent some time at the Colorbyte site and the way I read it is 
with Imageprint, one can use use the peizo inks or the MIS inks.  As 
anyone done a comparison between Imageprint and Peizo driver for the 
Peizo inks?

There is a lot of functionally there. But it's a lot of functionally 
many potential customers do not need and would not use. Too bad they 
don't have two versions. Yes I know the argument of R&D cost, but there 
is also the argument of economies of scale.

Truman

The reason to use Imageprint is better image quality and profiles on demand.
Imageprint print quality is vastly superior to piezo plugin peformance.  The
profiles are much better (cleaner and smoother).  The final output has less
noise and as a result the image look sharper. It is similar to
piezopro...but Imageprint is making custom profiles for the new piezotone
inks as well as the MIS FS and FS-N inks...which are not identical to the
original Cone inks which piezopro was made for.  You will also get
2200/7600/9600 support which makes printing reasonable BW images with the
new epson printers possible. It also runs on a mac and pc...while piezo pro
runs on a PC.  In addition it is only $500 for a desktop version while it
runs $1500 to get into piezopro.  The large format version is $1500.

Hope that helps,

Robert

On 8/19/02 7:02 AM, "Truman Prevatt" <tprevatt@...> wrote:

> I just spent some time at the Colorbyte site and the way I read it is
> with Imageprint, one can use use the peizo inks or the MIS inks.  As
> anyone done a comparison between Imageprint and Peizo driver for the
> Peizo inks?
> 
> There is a lot of functionally there. But it's a lot of functionally
> many potential customers do not need and would not use. Too bad they
> don't have two versions. Yes I know the argument of R&D cost, but there
> is also the argument of economies of scale.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Ernst Dinkla" <e.dinkla@c...> wrote:

> but a 'custom
> profile' is of course better. So every purchaser can get a profile/profiles
> for the system he uses when he delivers printed targets ? That's included in
> the price ?

All I can tell you is we used the supplied CANNED profile to print B&W images 
and the output was spot on! 

The software ships with targets for producing color and B&W profiles. You 
print and send to ColorByte and they email back a profile (for free!). There is 
also a bunch of profiles they keep on their website. 

Look, I'm all for custom profiles. But at least in the case of the 9600 and the 
tests we did, the supplied profiles were nothing short of perfect. 

There is a possiblity that the product used to make profiles from ColorByte will 
itself be avaiable for sale. Until then, stick with the supplied profiles and just 
make great prints.

----- Original Message -----

From: "Robert Morrison" <rmorrison@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, August 19, 2002 7:41 AM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Imageprint


> The reason to use Imageprint is better image quality and profiles on
demand.
> Imageprint print quality is vastly superior to piezo plugin peformance.
The
> profiles are much better (cleaner and smoother).  The final output has
less
> noise and as a result the image look sharper. It is similar to
> piezopro...but Imageprint is making custom profiles for the new piezotone
> inks as well as the MIS FS and FS-N inks...which are not identical to the
> original Cone inks which piezopro was made for.  You will also get
> 2200/7600/9600 support which makes printing reasonable BW images with the
> new epson printers possible. It also runs on a mac and pc...while piezo
pro
> runs on a PC.  In addition it is only $500 for a desktop version while it
> runs $1500 to get into piezopro.  The large format version is $1500.
>

Robert,

Are you personally using the desktop version? If so, are you satisfied that
it equals the performance of the large format version? I hear lots of
wonderful things about the IP4 and the 7000 but nothing good about the
desktop version. Will they really do profiles for the desktop version if you
send them targets or is that service for the wide format printers only?

I am rather confused since they list support for Lyson, PiezoBW, MIS-FS and
MIS-VM but if you go to their download section only MIS-FS for 7 papers are
listed for the 1270. 1280 and 1290 Epson's. This does not seem like a good
buy for $500. They have been promising support for all the quads but so far
it seems like hype and no delivery.

Then there is also this paragraph:

"IMAGEPRINT is purchased on a per printer basis rather than per computer.
Once the printer has been licensed, you can print to it from as many
different computers as you'd like using one copy of IMAGEPRINT. Printers can
be added at any time and no additional hardware is required. The same dongle
can be used to unlock an unlimited number of printers. To add a new printer,
simply purchase the additional license, and we'll provide you with a new
encryption key that will unlock IMAGEPRINT."

So I would need to spend $1000 for my two 1280's which is not very
attractive. They are making a mistake trying to sell to the desktop market
using the same marketing model they use to sell to service bureaus. Their
interest in the desktop printers seems pretty weak which also makes me
reluctant to get involved.

Martin Wesley

The licensed per printer is an issue that needs clarified before I would 
invest. What if I change printers, e.g. get a used 1280 and then decide 
to buy a 2200. Does the license go with the original printer and I need 
to buy a new license or can I get the license transferred?

I know what they are trying to do with this approach, keep people from 
using a single license for multiple printer configurations. However, 
they way the are trying to accomplish this seems a bit customer unfriendly.

The serious amature market for their product is different from the 
professional market.

Truman

Martin Wesley wrote:

>
> Are you personally using the desktop version? If so, are you satisfied 
> that
> it equals the performance of the large format version? I hear lots of
> wonderful things about the IP4 and the 7000 but nothing good about the
> desktop version. Will they really do profiles for the desktop version 
> if you
> send them targets or is that service for the wide format printers only?
>
> I am rather confused since they list support for Lyson, PiezoBW, 
> MIS-FS and
> MIS-VM but if you go to their download section only MIS-FS for 7 
> papers are
> listed for the 1270. 1280 and 1290 Epson's. This does not seem like a good
> buy for $500. They have been promising support for all the quads but 
> so far
> it seems like hype and no delivery.
>
> Then there is also this paragraph:
>
> "IMAGEPRINT is purchased on a per printer basis rather than per computer.
> Once the printer has been licensed, you can print to it from as many
> different computers as you'd like using one copy of IMAGEPRINT. 
> Printers can
> be added at any time and no additional hardware is required. The same 
> dongle
> can be used to unlock an unlimited number of printers. To add a new 
> printer,
> simply purchase the additional license, and we'll provide you with a new
> encryption key that will unlock IMAGEPRINT."
>
> So I would need to spend $1000 for my two 1280's which is not very
> attractive. They are making a mistake trying to sell to the desktop market
> using the same marketing model they use to sell to service bureaus. Their
> interest in the desktop printers seems pretty weak which also makes me
> reluctant to get involved.
>
> Martin Wesley
>
>
>
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On 8/19/02 9:18 AM, "Martin Wesley" <mwesley250@...> wrote:

> Are you personally using the desktop version?

Yes

> If so, are you satisfied that
> it equals the performance of the large format version?

Yes

> I hear lots of
> wonderful things about the IP4 and the 7000 but nothing good about the
> desktop version. Will they really do profiles for the desktop version if you
> send them targets or is that service for the wide format printers only?

Yes

> I am rather confused since they list support for Lyson, PiezoBW, MIS-FS and
> MIS-VM but if you go to their download section only MIS-FS for 7 papers are
> listed for the 1270. 1280 and 1290 Epson's. This does not seem like a good
> buy for $500. They have been promising support for all the quads but so far
> it seems like hype and no delivery.

I believe that support for VM was hijacked by the new epson printer.
Personally, I wouldn't use VM now that the ultracromes are out for toning.
You can get from cool to sepia in a single ink set that you can also use for
color.

There aren't a lot of profile made already...but they will make whatever you
need...that's the key to imageprint.
 
> Then there is also this paragraph:
> 
> "IMAGEPRINT is purchased on a per printer basis rather than per computer.
> Once the printer has been licensed, you can print to it from as many
> different computers as you'd like using one copy of IMAGEPRINT. Printers can
> be added at any time and no additional hardware is required. The same dongle
> can be used to unlock an unlimited number of printers. To add a new printer,
> simply purchase the additional license, and we'll provide you with a new
> encryption key that will unlock IMAGEPRINT."
> 
> So I would need to spend $1000 for my two 1280's which is not very
> attractive. They are making a mistake trying to sell to the desktop market
> using the same marketing model they use to sell to service bureaus. Their
> interest in the desktop printers seems pretty weak which also makes me
> reluctant to get involved.
> 
No, the license is not nearly as much for the second printer.  Just speak
with them directly...my guess is that you might be able to get a second
desktop printer thrown in for free...but I'm not them.  I have three
licenses that allow me to run two desktop printers and my 7000 at the same
time...with good performance.

Robert

----- Original Message -----

From: "Robert Morrison" <rmorrison@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, August 19, 2002 10:45 AM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Imageprint


> On 8/19/02 9:18 AM, "Martin Wesley" <mwesley250@...> wrote:
>
> > Are you personally using the desktop version?
>
> Yes
>
> > If so, are you satisfied that
> > it equals the performance of the large format version?
>
> Yes
>
> > I hear lots of
> > wonderful things about the IP4 and the 7000 but nothing good about the
> > desktop version. Will they really do profiles for the desktop version if
you
> > send them targets or is that service for the wide format printers only?
>
> Yes

Robert,

I appreciate the clarification. Your answers make it seem more attractive
for the desktop users.
>
> > I am rather confused since they list support for Lyson, PiezoBW, MIS-FS
and
> > MIS-VM but if you go to their download section only MIS-FS for 7 papers
are
> > listed for the 1270. 1280 and 1290 Epson's. This does not seem like a
good
> > buy for $500. They have been promising support for all the quads but so
far
> > it seems like hype and no delivery.
>
> I believe that support for VM was hijacked by the new epson printer.
> Personally, I wouldn't use VM now that the ultracromes are out for toning.
> You can get from cool to sepia in a single ink set that you can also use
for
> color.

Well the quality with the 2200 seems to be better that I initially thought
but due to print life it is not something I would consider for my own work.
The VM and Sepia-VM offer some color complexity to the prints that I really
like and the solutions with the 2200 seem to give infinite choice in overall
hue but do not appear to allow you to vary it with density within a single
print.

This leads me to ask if this RIP gives you full channel access. In other
words can you use it like a standard RIP to print your own custom CMYK
separation curves?
>
> There aren't a lot of profile made already...but they will make whatever
you
> need...that's the key to imageprint.

Well that part is a very good deal. Given that the PT profiles are in the
works, what is your impression of the PT inks with IP4's Piezo profiles with
the PT? Can you compare the results with the PT and the Piezo driver vs. PT
with IP4 and it's Piezo profiles?
>
> > Then there is also this paragraph:
> >
> > "IMAGEPRINT is purchased on a per printer basis rather than per
computer.
> > Once the printer has been licensed, you can print to it from as many
> > different computers as you'd like using one copy of IMAGEPRINT. Printers
can
> > be added at any time and no additional hardware is required. The same
dongle
> > can be used to unlock an unlimited number of printers. To add a new
printer,
> > simply purchase the additional license, and we'll provide you with a new
> > encryption key that will unlock IMAGEPRINT."
> >
> > So I would need to spend $1000 for my two 1280's which is not very
> > attractive. They are making a mistake trying to sell to the desktop
market
> > using the same marketing model they use to sell to service bureaus.
Their
> > interest in the desktop printers seems pretty weak which also makes me
> > reluctant to get involved.
> >
> No, the license is not nearly as much for the second printer.  Just speak
> with them directly...my guess is that you might be able to get a second
> desktop printer thrown in for free...but I'm not them.  I have three
> licenses that allow me to run two desktop printers and my 7000 at the same
> time...with good performance.

That makes more sense if the additional licenses are at a reduced cost.
Silverfast does this with their scanning software.

I guess the question comes down to quality vs. cost. I am very willing to
pay for additional quality if it is there. So the issue is how much of a
quality gain is there in going from the Piezo plugin at $125 - $150 for an
unlimited number of printers compared to IP4 at $500 for a single printer?
Personally my interests for the near future are Selenium PT and MIS-Sepia VM
on the 1280. If I can get smoother tonality, better Dmax and less banding
then I might go for it. I suspect though that the price differential will
deter most people.

One more question, some of the early IP4 prints I saw had some window screen
pattern visible on close inspection. I have heard that this has been
corrected. Has this been your experience?

Thanks,
Martin Wesley

On 8/19/02 11:22 AM, "Martin Wesley" <mwesley250@...> wrote:

>> I believe that support for VM was hijacked by the new epson printer.
>> Personally, I wouldn't use VM now that the ultracromes are out for toning.
>> You can get from cool to sepia in a single ink set that you can also use
>> for color.
> 
> Well the quality with the 2200 seems to be better that I initially thought
> but due to print life it is not something I would consider for my own work.

I agree.  It is a very attractive option for commercial photographers who
want to crank out RC prints on an E-surface paper though.

> The VM and Sepia-VM offer some color complexity to the prints that I really
> like and the solutions with the 2200 seem to give infinite choice in overall
> hue but do not appear to allow you to vary it with density within a single
> print.

Correct.  Colorbyte has this type of control, but I don't believe that users
have it.
 
> This leads me to ask if this RIP gives you full channel access. In other
> words can you use it like a standard RIP to print your own custom CMYK
> separation curves?

This is one to ask Colorbyte directly.  You so have the ability to limit
individual inks...but I haven't played with it because it was a windows only
feature until the latest version.

>> There aren't a lot of profile made already...but they will make whatever
>> you need...that's the key to imageprint.
> 
> Well that part is a very good deal. Given that the PT profiles are in the
> works, what is your impression of the PT inks with IP4's Piezo profiles with
> the PT? Can you compare the results with the PT and the Piezo driver vs. PT
> with IP4 and it's Piezo profiles?

IP's profiles for the Piezotones are much, much better  than those in the
piezo plugin or Piezopro profiles.
 
>> No, the license is not nearly as much for the second printer.  Just speak
>> with them directly...my guess is that you might be able to get a second
>> desktop printer thrown in for free...but I'm not them.  I have three
>> licenses that allow me to run two desktop printers and my 7000 at the same
>> time...with good performance.
> 
> That makes more sense if the additional licenses are at a reduced cost.
> Silverfast does this with their scanning software.
> 
> I guess the question comes down to quality vs. cost. I am very willing to
> pay for additional quality if it is there. So the issue is how much of a
> quality gain is there in going from the Piezo plugin at $125 - $150 for an
> unlimited number of printers compared to IP4 at $500 for a single printer?
> Personally my interests for the near future are Selenium PT and MIS-Sepia VM
> on the 1280. If I can get smoother tonality, better Dmax and less banding
> then I might go for it. I suspect though that the price differential will
> deter most people.
> 
> One more question, some of the early IP4 prints I saw had some window screen
> pattern visible on close inspection. I have heard that this has been
> corrected. Has this been your experience?

Absolutely.  The newer dither is fantastic...the best out there in my
opinion.  This is a rapidly evolving product and each change makes it better
and better in my opinion.  The soon to be released OSX version, I believe,
will be the ultimate print engine.

Robert

----- Original Message -----

From: "thedigitaldog" <andrew@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2002 3:51 AM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Imageprint


> True indeed. What we'd like to see is the powers to be at Epson seeing a
> much, much better solution and instead of puting efforts into poor
software
> (which they've done for years up to and including the Gray Balancer), they
> simply OEM the software or have the ability for ColorByte to sell enough
> copies so that instead of $495, it's $195 or maybe much less.

The Epson drivers until now have given us the best quality available in full
colour printing. Within their intended limitation of OEM inks and papers.
Very few RIP's could deliver an equal quality in dithering. The Epson
drivers showed their limitation when third party papers or inks had to be
used. There is no ink limit control and linearisation possible then. I
wouldn't call the Epson drivers poor software. Even with the driver
limitation but with some third party profiling software/hardware (Profiler
Pro, cheaper Spectrometers) it often was possible to get better printing
results than expensive RIP and colourmanagement solutions could offer. At
least this last route gave us some custom profiling per unique printer
without the expensive route of buying a RIP etc.

Things may have changed now, we will see.

Ernst

I'm glad that you are trying to get Epson and Colorbyte together on a
bundle deal, given your direct participation in stiffing North America
with Gray Balancer. I frankly think Epson owes NA 2200 customers some
compensation for removing that and the CD printing feature. If it's good
enough to market in Europe, then it should be good enough to market
here.
 
One thing that puts me off re: Colorbyte. It appears that in order to
obtain upgrades past 90 days from purchase one has to buy an annual
maintenance contract @ $495 per year. That is absurd. Is this contract
necessary to get the "free" profiling service?
 
Lloyd

-----Original Message-----
From: thedigitaldog [mailto:andrew@...] 
Sent: Monday, August 19, 2002 10:37 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Imageprint


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Ernst Dinkla" <e.dinkla@c...>
wrote:

> but a 'custom
> profile' is of course better. So every purchaser can get a
profile/profiles
> for the system he uses when he delivers printed targets ? That's
included in
> the price ?

All I can tell you is we used the supplied CANNED profile to print B&W
images 
and the output was spot on! 

The software ships with targets for producing color and B&W profiles.
You 
print and send to ColorByte and they email back a profile (for free!).
There is 
also a bunch of profiles they keep on their website. 

Look, I'm all for custom profiles. But at least in the case of the 9600
and the 
tests we did, the supplied profiles were nothing short of perfect. 

There is a possiblity that the product used to make profiles from
ColorByte will 
itself be avaiable for sale. Until then, stick with the supplied
profiles and just 
make great prints. 



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

----- Original Message -----

From: "Robert G. Morrison" <rmorrison@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, August 19, 2002 12:26 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Imageprint


> On 8/19/02 11:22 AM, "Martin Wesley" <mwesley250@...> wrote:
>
(snip)
> >
> > Well the quality with the 2200 seems to be better that I initially
thought
> > but due to print life it is not something I would consider for my own
work.
>
> I agree.  It is a very attractive option for commercial photographers who
> want to crank out RC prints on an E-surface paper though.

I expect that it will have a very wide appeal.
>
(snip)
>
> >> There aren't a lot of profile made already...but they will make
whatever
> >> you need...that's the key to imageprint.
> >
> > Well that part is a very good deal. Given that the PT profiles are in
the
> > works, what is your impression of the PT inks with IP4's Piezo profiles
with
> > the PT? Can you compare the results with the PT and the Piezo driver vs.
PT
> > with IP4 and it's Piezo profiles?
>
> IP's profiles for the Piezotones are much, much better  than those in the
> piezo plugin or Piezopro profiles.

Are the Piezotone profiles already available for the 1280 version?
>
(snip)
>
> Absolutely.  The newer dither is fantastic...the best out there in my
> opinion.  This is a rapidly evolving product and each change makes it
better
> and better in my opinion.  The soon to be released OSX version, I believe,
> will be the ultimate print engine.

Sound pretty good. Are you paying the annual $495 maintenance fee for
support and upgrades? How is the support, by the way?

Martin

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Lloyd O'Daniel" <lodaniel@b...> 
wrote:
> I'm glad that you are trying to get Epson and Colorbyte together on a
> bundle deal, given your direct participation in stiffing North America
> with Gray Balancer. I frankly think Epson owes NA 2200 customers some
> compensation for removing that and the CD printing feature. 

GB and Image Print have nothing to do with each other. GB is a kludgy, poorly 
designed band-aid that hoses soft proofing and current ICC profiles. It's a toy. 
If anything, it's the kind of internal software garbage that keeps a good product 
like Image Print from being in the box. 

Image Print not only really does produce true, dead nuts gray balance with no 
metamerism, it's a production tool. It does packages, custom templates and 
produces better dither and Dmax. Putting GB and IP in the same sentence is 
like discussing a kite and the space shuttle as devices that take flight.

Understood. The price difference between the two also fits the kite -
shuttle analogy. As for package printing etc., I couldn't care less. I
don't do much of that and I already own Qimage Pro, which does the same
thing for a hell of a lot less cash
.

-----Original Message-----
From: thedigitaldog [mailto:andrew@...] 
Sent: Monday, August 19, 2002 5:59 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Imageprint


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Lloyd O'Daniel"
<lodaniel@b...> 
wrote:
> I'm glad that you are trying to get Epson and Colorbyte together on a
> bundle deal, given your direct participation in stiffing North America
> with Gray Balancer. I frankly think Epson owes NA 2200 customers some
> compensation for removing that and the CD printing feature. 

GB and Image Print have nothing to do with each other. GB is a kludgy,
poorly 
designed band-aid that hoses soft proofing and current ICC profiles.
It's a toy. 
If anything, it's the kind of internal software garbage that keeps a
good product 
like Image Print from being in the box. 

Image Print not only really does produce true, dead nuts gray balance
with no 
metamerism, it's a production tool. It does packages, custom templates
and 
produces better dither and Dmax. Putting GB and IP in the same sentence
is 
like discussing a kite and the space shuttle as devices that take
flight. 




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On 8/19/02 3:37 PM, "Martin Wesley" <mwesley250@...> wrote:

>> IP's profiles for the Piezotones are much, much better  than those in the
>> piezo plugin or Piezopro profiles.
> 
> Are the Piezotone profiles already available for the 1280 version?

I'm expecting them in the next couple of days...they were working on them
last week.

> (snip)
>> 
>> Absolutely.  The newer dither is fantastic...the best out there in my
>> opinion.  This is a rapidly evolving product and each change makes it
>> better
>> and better in my opinion.  The soon to be released OSX version, I believe,
>> will be the ultimate print engine.
> 
> Sound pretty good. Are you paying the annual $495 maintenance fee for
> support and upgrades? How is the support, by the way?

Support is excellent.  No I'm not paying the maintenance fee yet.  My guess
is that once you have the profiles you need you and get over any initial
interface issues you won't really need support.  There has been talk...and
it is just talk at this point...of making the profiling software available
so that people who have a densitometer or spectrophotometer could make their
own quad profiles.  When I met with Colorbyte last week they sounded ready
to do this...I obviously encouraged them...finally...do it yourself quad
profiling!  If you had that you probably wouldn't need the tech support.
The tech support does include unlimited version upgrades, though, including
support for new printers and inksets and such.  As all of us who recently
upgraded to PS7 are reminded...most good things aren't free forever.

One thing that many of us need to get over...in my opinion...is feeling that
software should be free...if you have ever written code before you know it
is hard, time consuming work...and if you are running a business that is not
supported by printer and ink sales you need to make money someway!

Robert

On 8/19/02 3:14 PM, "Lloyd O'Daniel" <lodaniel@...> wrote:

> I'm glad that you are trying to get Epson and Colorbyte together on a
> bundle deal, given your direct participation in stiffing North America
> with Gray Balancer. I frankly think Epson owes NA 2200 customers some
> compensation for removing that and the CD printing feature. If it's good
> enough to market in Europe, then it should be good enough to market
> here.

Epson doesn't OWE you anything my friend!  If you don't like what they offer
then don't buy their product...its called the free market.  They are free to
sell you...or not sell you anything they like...and you are free to decide
whether you want to buy it or not.

On another note.  Beta testing is an enormous amount of work that I
regularly do.  Great beta testers, LIKE ANDREW, are hard, hard, hard to come
by.  Thank you Andrew for saving us all a lot of wasted time...

Robert

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Robert G. Morrison" <
rmorrison@p...> wrote:

> One thing that many of us need to get over...in my opinion...is feeling that
> software should be free...if you have ever written code before you know it
> is hard, time consuming work...and if you are running a business that is not
> supported by printer and ink sales you need to make money someway!

I totally agree. With this software (which ain't cheap), it makes the Epson the 
printer it should be. On another list, people are complaining that the software 
for the 2200 is $495 while Gray Balancer is/was free and they don't 
understand that the two are not even in the same league. One's a poorly 
designed hack that works on top of a problematic driver. 

The 2200 is a $600 printer or a $1000 printer with great software. Look at the 
total package. With IP running it, it's still worth $1000 IMHO.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Robert G. Morrison" <
rmorrison@p...> wrote:

> Epson doesn't OWE you anything my friend!  If you don't like what they offer
> then don't buy their product...its called the free market.  They are free to
> sell you...or not sell you anything they like...and you are free to decide
> whether you want to buy it or not.

True indeed. What we'd like to see is the powers to be at Epson seeing a 
much, much better solution and instead of puting efforts into poor software 
(which they've done for years up to and including the Gray Balancer), they 
simply OEM the software or have the ability for ColorByte to sell enough 
copies so that instead of $495, it's $195 or maybe much less. 

The product manager for the 2200 spent a few hours seeing what *could* be 
output on the big brother of his product (the 9600). Some of us are working 
hard to try and convince a company that makes very good hardware and 
pretty poor software to stop spinning their wheels and take on an existing 
solution that works today. The forumla has worked with some 3rd party 
scanner driver companies. Epson bundles LaserSoft with it's scanners. 

I can only hope and dream...

The real problem - I've seen it a hundred times - is innovation 
typically does not flourish in a large vertically integrated company 
like Epson. I don't know anything about Epson but I suspect I can tell 
you their story. It produces nice hardware and have software to drive it 
but they have the mentality of "no revolutions." Hence you have a driver 
that works, it sprays ink on a paper, and it has been patched, modified, 
evolved - what ever name you want to call it - but it's still not a good 
driver for getting the most out of the hardware. The risk of throwing it 
away and starting over is too great. And the inertia of "staying in 
house" is too great.

This type of thing has become a very big issue in the US defense 
industry with the consoladation and the DOD has recognized the lack of 
innovation coming out of industry. That's why things like the SBIR 
(Small Business Inovative Research)  program has been establish and 
funded to the hilt.

Sounds to me like Epson needs to start looking to farm some of its 
software development.

While the price tag of Imageprint is high, you are paying for their 
innovation - it doesn't come cheap. Innovation is not efficient and it 
can't be done for the same cost as modifiying a piece of existing code. 
Imageprint need the economies of scale to bring the price down. The best 
thing that could happen to all involved is Epson decide to guarantee a 
set number of sells of Imageprint and give out coupons in the 2200 (this 
could be done retroactively) for a discount on Imageprint. The could 
also sign a long term agreement to use the Image print driver on their 
current and future printer. I think the Gray Balancer fiasco has been a 
black eye to Epson, hopefully they will do something. But, alas, I'm not 
counting on it. The other thing a large company has trouble being is 
creative.

Truman

thedigitaldog wrote:

> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Robert G. Morrison" <
> rmorrison@p...> wrote:
>
> > One thing that many of us need to get over...in my opinion...is 
> feeling that
> > software should be free...if you have ever written code before you 
> know it
> > is hard, time consuming work...and if you are running a business 
> that is not
> > supported by printer and ink sales you need to make money someway!
>
> I totally agree. With this software (which ain't cheap), it makes the 
> Epson the
> printer it should be. On another list, people are complaining that the 
> software
> for the 2200 is $495 while Gray Balancer is/was free and they don't
> understand that the two are not even in the same league. One's a poorly
> designed hack that works on top of a problematic driver.
>
> The 2200 is a $600 printer or a $1000 printer with great software. 
> Look at the
> total package. With IP running it, it's still worth $1000 IMHO.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "thedigitaldog" 
<andrew@d...> wrote:
The forumla has worked with some 3rd party 
> scanner driver companies. Epson bundles LaserSoft with it's 
scanners. 

I immediately thought of the LaserSoft example, when I 
envisioned Epson bundling the ImagePrint RIP with the 9600. 
Same approach.

Two questions: price and workflow.

First, why would software for a 44" printer cost a thousand 
dollars more than (relatively) the same software for a 24" printer? 
I can't see how the money works here. It's like saying that 
Photoshop7 should cost three hundred dollars more if your file 
sizes exceed 100megs? Or saying that Word should cost more if 
you write long documents? 

I could see a difference between a desktop printer like the 2200 
and the wide-formats, but not between the two wide-formats. And 
if you really get down to it, why a price difference at all between 
printers? Is it merely setting a price point that seems appropriate 
to the user of that product?

And secondly, workflow -- are all these complicated ink levels 
and other settings dealt with ONLY when you're creating profiles, 
or do you have to deal with it every time you make a print? Once 
you're profiles are set, and you've decided on one or two papers, 
how much different is the workflow between IPrint and the Epson 
driver?

Thanks, Andrew. I too appreciate your contributions.

MT

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "thedigitaldog" <andrew@d...> wrote:
snip...
> The 2200 is a $600 printer or a $1000 printer with great software. Look at the 
> total package. With IP running it, it's still worth $1000 IMHO.

With all due respect to someone who has contributed so much, I can't help but wonder how things would be if the 
contentious Mr. Eversole or the quiet folks at Cadlink had someone with as high a list profile as yourself going to bat for 
them.
There are a lot of things happening out there in the world. I want to hear about them and revel in their wonders as much as 
anybody, but the love fest pouring out to the various groups by users and testers of this product is feeling a little funny.
I hope it's all just enthusiasm for a truely beakthrough product, because I may even want to try it myself. A little balance 
may be in order, it's hard to imagine there isn't something you dislike about it, hmm?
Tyler, why is it always Tyler?

Imageprint may be great and all that.... But I had read many accounts on
the net that the Epson OEM inks vary from batch to batch depending on
what country that are made in. I remember reading that the ink for the
1280 are produced in both Mexico and China and the inks have a different
balance. Has anyone experienced this? If this is the case with the 2200
inks, that they are not produced to a professional consistency, does
that not make profiles and IP4 less of a sure thing until someone busts
the 2200 chips and produces bulk ink of professional quality / consistency??

-Jeff

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "marktuckerdotcom" <
mtucker508@y...> wrote:

> First, why would software for a 44" printer cost a thousand 
> dollars more than (relatively) the same software for a 24" printer? 

Don't know. I don't see a reason for it. I do see a reason for $495 for a desktop 
version for the 2200 and the like. But I'd hope the 7600 and 9600 versions 
would all be the same. 

> And secondly, workflow -- are all these complicated ink levels 
> and other settings dealt with ONLY when you're creating profiles, 
> or do you have to deal with it every time you make a print? 

All done with profiles although there are a number of image specific controls 
take from their scanning software! You have a Histogram, Curves, a color 
control and individual fields to limit ink (which I didn't mess with at all). Since 
the software is ICC savvy, the previews match Photoshop although frankly, 
this would be the last place I'd do corrections. Still, for some production 
environments, it might be nice to be able to apply a correction. The way in 
which you get to these controls and undo them is a real kludge which I hope 
will be fixed. 

>Once 
> you're profiles are set, and you've decided on one or two papers, 
> how much different is the workflow between IPrint and the Epson 
> driver?

It's different in a good way. In theory it's the same. You set paper and profile 
and off you go. But dealing with size for output, ganging images and so forth 
is much more powerful. 

One thing I love is that IF you want to print B&W, you can simply deal with 
much smaller grayscale files. It doesn't make a difference if you send the 
product RGB that is neutral or Grayscale; it will do all the work at the print 
level. So for printing B&W, you have a file that's a lot smaller. 

Just to keep any Alpha channels in those files. Hose the output. I told them 
about it. The product will take PSD files with layers (it slows it down a tad). For 
fastest processing for coming into the main preivew, drag and drop a TIFF file.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Truman Prevatt <tprevatt@m...> 
wrote:

> Sounds to me like Epson needs to start looking to farm some of its 
> software development.

They have in the past (with scanners) so let's hope that the same can happen 
with printers. 


> all involved is Epson decide to guarantee a 
> set number of sells of Imageprint and give out coupons in the 2200 (this 
> could be done retroactively) for a discount on Imageprint. 

That's VERY possible! Many of us on the sidelines are recommending exactly 
that. We could of course use as much help as possible <g>

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "tboleyyh" <tyler@t...> wrote:
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "thedigitaldog" <andrew@d...> 

> it's hard to imagine there isn't something you dislike about it, hmm?

There is a LOT I don't like. I DO like the final output...a lot! Getting there needs 
a good deal of work. The GUI is kind of a mess. We really need OSX support 
(if you are on Windows, you're in better shape). Under OS9, the product feels 
like it's being held together with rubber bands and glue. But it does produce a 
beautiful print! 

Give the options between a nice, easy to use product that produces sucky 
output or one that looks rough but produces great output, I'll take the latter. I 
don't think a huge amount of work is needed but the product as it stands 
today, is pretty ugly and doesn't follow many Mac GUI standards. Someone 
from the outside has to hammer on CB to produce a product that is easier and 
more intuitive to use. 

The company is small so I'm hoping that they are manageable and flexible.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "thedigitaldog" 
<andrew@d...> wrote:
> Don't know. I don't see a reason for it. I do see a reason for 
$495 for a desktop 
> version for the 2200 and the like. But I'd hope the 7600 and 
9600 versions 
> would all be the same. 

(9600) $4995 x 50% = $2497.50
(7600) $2995 x 50% = $1497.50
(2200) $699 x 71% = $496.29

The prices are roughly what they're asking for each version of the 
software. Each line shows the percentage of the original printer 
price. Sounds like a bunch of guys in a room saying, "What will 
each level of the market bear?"...

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "thedigitaldog" <andrew@d...> wrote:
snip...
> (if you are on Windows, you're in better shape). Under OS9, the product feels 
> like it's being held together with rubber bands and glue.

I'm told some of the controls advanced users would definitely want in a pro RIP are not available in the crrent Mac version. 
I don't claim to be advanced, but I would certainly want all of those options, as I would want to use the RIP for a number of 
purposes.
It really sounds like it's geared toward the photographic printer that doesn't mind a bit of a black box, as long as the prints 
are beautiful.
I hope to hear more as it developes.
Tyler

marktuckerdotcom wrote:
>Sounds like a bunch of guys in a room saying, "What will
> each level of the market bear?"...


Mark;

Is that not how you price your commercial photography services ?  :) I
know That is how I do it!

-Jeff

On the other hand, I am sure there are many of us who will never use many of 
the features of this RIP.  Some of us just want an excellent print driver for the 
2200 (instead of the Epson driver) that will allow this printer to produce those 
neutral, linear, smooth B&W prints (sans metamerism) that Andrew is raving 
about, and still allow us to produce toned prints and full color from the same 
printer.  Perhaps this scaled down version of the software is only worth 150 to 
200 US (real) dollars (on par with the piezo plug in).  (I am one of those 
Canadians that has to spend 1.6 of my hard earned dollars to buy one dollar 
of american "ingenuity").

Do they allow you to buy into the maintenance contract at any time, or
does it have to be in force continually? I'm uncomfortable with the idea
of paying $495/ year whether upgrades I need materialize or not.
 
Lloyd

-----Original Message-----
From: Robert G. Morrison [mailto:rmorrison@...] 
Sent: Monday, August 19, 2002 7:27 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Imageprint



Support is excellent.  No I'm not paying the maintenance fee yet.  My
guess
is that once you have the profiles you need you and get over any initial
interface issues you won't really need support.  There has been
talk...and
it is just talk at this point...of making the profiling software
available
so that people who have a densitometer or spectrophotometer could make
their
own quad profiles.  When I met with Colorbyte last week they sounded
ready
to do this...I obviously encouraged them...finally...do it yourself quad
profiling!  If you had that you probably wouldn't need the tech support.
The tech support does include unlimited version upgrades, though,
including
support for new printers and inksets and such.  As all of us who
recently
upgraded to PS7 are reminded...most good things aren't free forever.

One thing that many of us need to get over...in my opinion...is feeling
that
software should be free...if you have ever written code before you know
it
is hard, time consuming work...and if you are running a business that is
not
supported by printer and ink sales you need to make money someway!

Robert




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Your love fest with Andrew's abilities notwithstanding, his opinion is
simply just that...one man's opinion. I've read at least two other
informed opinions on GB that are very positive. These other two
gentlemen seemed to get very good results with GB. Perhaps they are
wrong and Andrew is right...perhaps not. Nor do I expect an OEM driver
to be as good as a $500 RIP from a company that also wants to charge
$500 a year to talk to you on the phone. But the free driver is probably
better than nothing.
 
The bottom line is that Epson saw fit to release the 2100 with all the
advertised features and software of the original Japanese model. Then,
they released the 2200 as a crippled, stripped-down version of that
printer. And, it's the only one I can get. I resent that. Epson doesn't
owe me anything, but I don't have to buy the printer. I wouldn't have
bought my Camry had Toyota decided to offer AC and automatic
transmission only outside North America. If Epson's goal is to maximize
sales rather than alienate the most affluent portion of their customer
base (the US and Canada), then they should realize what a big PR fiasco
this is and try to rectify it. It's called Customer Relations.
 
Beta testing and feature sets should be done before the product is
marketed anywhere. It seems to me that Epson either deprived us of
useful features, or foisted junk on the rest of the world. Not good
either way.
 
Lloyd

-----Original Message-----
From: Robert G. Morrison [mailto:rmorrison@...] 
Sent: Monday, August 19, 2002 7:32 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Imageprint


On 8/19/02 3:14 PM, "Lloyd O'Daniel" <lodaniel@...> wrote:

> I'm glad that you are trying to get Epson and Colorbyte together on a
> bundle deal, given your direct participation in stiffing North America
> with Gray Balancer. I frankly think Epson owes NA 2200 customers some
> compensation for removing that and the CD printing feature. If it's
good
> enough to market in Europe, then it should be good enough to market
> here.

Epson doesn't OWE you anything my friend!  If you don't like what they
offer
then don't buy their product...its called the free market.  They are
free to
sell you...or not sell you anything they like...and you are free to
decide
whether you want to buy it or not.

On another note.  Beta testing is an enormous amount of work that I
regularly do.  Great beta testers, LIKE ANDREW, are hard, hard, hard to
come
by.  Thank you Andrew for saving us all a lot of wasted time...

Robert




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Mark,

You left out:

(1280) ($499 - $100 Rebate) X 124% = $495

Hmmm...

Martin Wesley

http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html



----- Original Message -----
From: "marktuckerdotcom" <mtucker508@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, August 19, 2002 7:43 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Imageprint


> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "thedigitaldog"
> <andrew@d...> wrote:
> > Don't know. I don't see a reason for it. I do see a reason for
> $495 for a desktop
> > version for the 2200 and the like. But I'd hope the 7600 and
> 9600 versions
> > would all be the same.
>
> (9600) $4995 x 50% = $2497.50
> (7600) $2995 x 50% = $1497.50
> (2200) $699 x 71% = $496.29
>
> The prices are roughly what they're asking for each version of the
> software. Each line shows the percentage of the original printer
> price. Sounds like a bunch of guys in a room saying, "What will
> each level of the market bear?"...
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
&amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot;
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.

>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

On 8/19/02 8:07 PM, "Lloyd O'Daniel" <lodaniel@...> wrote:

> The bottom line is that Epson saw fit to release the 2100 with all the
> advertised features and software of the original Japanese model. Then,
> they released the 2200 as a crippled, stripped-down version of that
> printer. And, it's the only one I can get. I resent that. Epson doesn't
> owe me anything, but I don't have to buy the printer. I wouldn't have
> bought my Camry had Toyota decided to offer AC and automatic
> transmission only outside North America. If Epson's goal is to maximize
> sales rather than alienate the most affluent portion of their customer
> base (the US and Canada), then they should realize what a big PR fiasco
> this is and try to rectify it. It's called Customer Relations.

Correction, Epson's goal is not to sell the most printers...but to make the
most money...that's a very, very different thing.
> 
> Beta testing and feature sets should be done before the product is
> marketed anywhere. It seems to me that Epson either deprived us of
> useful features, or foisted junk on the rest of the world. Not good
> either way.

They were.  Epson Europe decided to ignore the feedback...Epson America
didn't because ultimately each market is responsible for providing its own
technical support.

Robert

Not to nitpick this to death, but I never said "sell the most printers".
I said "maximize sales", meaning dollars.
 
Yeah, I suppose if you PO enough customers into not buying your product,
that will reduce your tech support load.
 
Lloyd

-----Original Message-----
From: Robert Morrison [mailto:rmorrison@...] 
Sent: Monday, August 19, 2002 11:18 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Imageprint


On 8/19/02 8:07 PM, "Lloyd O'Daniel" <lodaniel@...> wrote:

> The bottom line is that Epson saw fit to release the 2100 with all the
> advertised features and software of the original Japanese model. Then,
> they released the 2200 as a crippled, stripped-down version of that
> printer. And, it's the only one I can get. I resent that. Epson
doesn't
> owe me anything, but I don't have to buy the printer. I wouldn't have
> bought my Camry had Toyota decided to offer AC and automatic
> transmission only outside North America. If Epson's goal is to
maximize
> sales rather than alienate the most affluent portion of their customer
> base (the US and Canada), then they should realize what a big PR
fiasco
> this is and try to rectify it. It's called Customer Relations.

Correction, Epson's goal is not to sell the most printers...but to make
the
most money...that's a very, very different thing.
> 
> Beta testing and feature sets should be done before the product is
> marketed anywhere. It seems to me that Epson either deprived us of
> useful features, or foisted junk on the rest of the world. Not good
> either way.

They were.  Epson Europe decided to ignore the feedback...Epson America
didn't because ultimately each market is responsible for providing its
own
technical support.

Robert




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Austin Franklin" <darkroom@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2002 9:34 PM
Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Imageprint


> > There are plenty of examples of a product being priced for the platform.
> > The scientific s/w package Machematica cost a lot more on a Sun or Cray
> > than on a PC or Mac. The same for Matlab. It fact I would think this is
> > more the rule than the exception.
> >
> > Truman
>
> Truman,
>
> That has always been true for CAD/EDA tools (Computer Aided
> Design/Electronic Design Automation).  Unix variants, though they do
exactly
> the same thing, and possibly less even, cost near 2x the PC variant!!!
>
> Regards,
>
> Austin
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
&amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot;
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> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.

>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Lloyd O'Daniel" <lodaniel@b...> 
wrote:
>But the free driver is probably
> better than nothing.

Well Ink does hit the paper... It's certainly not hitting as good as it could or 
should. Want to see just what the driver really does? Send a file out using "No 
Color Adjustment." That's how all the Epson profiles are based (on that driver 
behavior). It's god awful. I sometimes wonder if some color scientist tested the 
method in which the most ink would be wasted in order to drive the printer in 
this fashion. 

 
> The bottom line is that Epson saw fit to release the 2100 with all the
> advertised features and software of the original Japanese model. Then,
> they released the 2200 as a crippled, stripped-down version of that
> printer. 

That's totally extreme. It prints just like any other 2200 printer in the world. You 
didn't get a kludgy piece of software with it. The 2200 I have prints prints just 
as well as any other 2200. It's better with a good ICC profile and MUCH better 
with the ColorByte RIP. 


>And, it's the only one I can get. I resent that. Epson doesn't
> owe me anything, but I don't have to buy the printer. I wouldn't have
> bought my Camry had Toyota decided to offer AC and automatic
> transmission only outside North America. If Epson's goal is to maximize
> sales rather than alienate the most affluent portion of their customer
> base (the US and Canada), then they should realize what a big PR fiasco
> this is and try to rectify it. It's called Customer Relations.

So let's put GB behind us since it's just more of the same junk software from 
Japan and get Epson to supply us a product that makes the printers print 
better, faster and more productively. The more people demand GB, the more 
Japan justifies it's need to continue to spend time and money making bad 
software. I suspect that what it cost to develop GB, Epson could have 
purchased ColorByte! 

  
> Beta testing and feature sets should be done before the product is
> marketed anywhere. It seems to me that Epson either deprived us of
> useful features, or foisted junk on the rest of the world. 

The latter!

Junk software..junk software....???

...*that's* a bit extreme, isn't it?  I have read at least 2 reviews 
praising it to the skys, saying what super results it gives.

Mine sits unopened on my desk, but I'm tempted.

Free GB (in Europe) is a bit cheaper than $1,500 - $2,500.
--
Quentin

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "thedigitaldog" 
<andrew@d...> wrote:
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Lloyd O'Daniel" 
<lodaniel@b...> 
> wrote:
> >But the free driver is probably
> > better than nothing.
> 
> Well Ink does hit the paper... It's certainly not hitting as good 
as it could or 
> should. Want to see just what the driver really does? Send a file 
out using "No 
> Color Adjustment." That's how all the Epson profiles are based (on 
that driver 
> behavior). It's god awful. I sometimes wonder if some color 
scientist tested the 
> method in which the most ink would be wasted in order to drive the 
printer in 
> this fashion. 
> 
>  
> > The bottom line is that Epson saw fit to release the 2100 with 
all the
> > advertised features and software of the original Japanese model. 
Then,
> > they released the 2200 as a crippled, stripped-down version of 
that
> > printer. 
> 
> That's totally extreme. It prints just like any other 2200 printer 
in the world. You 
> didn't get a kludgy piece of software with it. The 2200 I have 
prints prints just 
> as well as any other 2200. It's better with a good ICC profile and 
MUCH better 
> with the ColorByte RIP. 
> 
> 
> >And, it's the only one I can get. I resent that. Epson doesn't
> > owe me anything, but I don't have to buy the printer. I wouldn't 
have
> > bought my Camry had Toyota decided to offer AC and automatic
> > transmission only outside North America. If Epson's goal is to 
maximize
> > sales rather than alienate the most affluent portion of their 
customer
> > base (the US and Canada), then they should realize what a big PR 
fiasco
> > this is and try to rectify it. It's called Customer Relations.
> 
> So let's put GB behind us since it's just more of the same junk 
software from 
> Japan and get Epson to supply us a product that makes the printers 
print 
> better, faster and more productively. The more people demand GB, 
the more 
> Japan justifies it's need to continue to spend time and money 
making bad 
> software. I suspect that what it cost to develop GB, Epson could 
have 

> purchased ColorByte! 
> 
>   
> > Beta testing and feature sets should be done before the product is
> > marketed anywhere. It seems to me that Epson either deprived us of
> > useful features, or foisted junk on the rest of the world. 
> 
> The latter!

On 8/20/02 6:53 AM, "thedigitaldog" <andrew@...> wrote:

> I suspect that what it cost to develop GB, Epson could have
> purchased ColorByte!

I realize that this was partly said in jest...but...the key here is that
Epson does not own Colorbyte...and hopefully won't.  One of the beauties of
Imageprint...and a real mission of Imageprint...at least as expressed by
Colorbyte's president, is to provide a hardware and ink independent product.
At present, I can use the driver with my 1270, 1280 and 7000 with any of a
variety of different ink sets.  Imageprint supports a huge number of
printers including Roland and Iris as well as Epson.  There is even talk of
them supporting 3rd party color ink sets on older epson printers.  If they
were bought by Epson...all of this would end...and they would be...the
people who build epson's driver...not a happy thing in my book.

Robert

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Robert Morrison <rmorrison@p...> > 
I realize that this was partly said in jest...but...the key here is that
> Epson does not own Colorbyte...and hopefully won't.  

No. My point was that for the cost to develop really poor software, a big 
company like Epson could likely have the CB technology. I think it's best that 
CB stay independant. I'd like to see a situation like Epson has with SliverFast 
(and that isn't an easy company to deal with!). 

For the money Epson spends on GB and other such nonesense, I suspect 
they could bundle the RIP in the box for little or no money. That's what I'd like 
to see.

On 8/19/02 7:34 PM, "thedigitaldog" <andrew@...> wrote:

>> it's hard to imagine there isn't something you dislike about it, hmm?
> 
> There is a LOT I don't like. I DO like the final output...a lot! Getting there
> needs 
> a good deal of work. The GUI is kind of a mess. We really need OSX support
> (if you are on Windows, you're in better shape). Under OS9, the product feels
> like it's being held together with rubber bands and glue. But it does produce
> a 
> beautiful print! 
> 
> Give the options between a nice, easy to use product that produces sucky
> output or one that looks rough but produces great output, I'll take the
> latter. I 
> don't think a huge amount of work is needed but the product as it stands
> today, is pretty ugly and doesn't follow many Mac GUI standards. Someone
> from the outside has to hammer on CB to produce a product that is easier and
> more intuitive to use.
> 
> The company is small so I'm hoping that they are manageable and flexible.
> 

I absolutely agree.  I have to run imageprint on an OS9 only machine.  Even
installing OSX and booting under classic doesn't work...but the OSX version
is almost to beta.  The interface is not well polished...and takes some
getting used to...but his has been improving with the various versions that
I've used and just reenforced the point last week when I met with Colorbyte.
I have on occasion had to ask them to do profiles twice...because the first
one was not up to my standards...they did.

The only thing that Andrew and I have been trying to say...is that there is
a product out there that will help you make better prints.


Robert

On 8/19/02 7:43 PM, "marktuckerdotcom" <mtucker508@...> wrote:

> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "thedigitaldog"
> <andrew@d...> wrote:
>> Don't know. I don't see a reason for it. I do see a reason for
> $495 for a desktop
>> version for the 2200 and the like. But I'd hope the 7600 and
> 9600 versions 
>> would all be the same.
> 
> (9600) $4995 x 50% = $2497.50
> (7600) $2995 x 50% = $1497.50
> (2200) $699 x 71% = $496.29
> 
> The prices are roughly what they're asking for each version of the
> software. Each line shows the percentage of the original printer
> price. Sounds like a bunch of guys in a room saying, "What will
> each level of the market bear?"...

And how much do you charge for a 13 x 19 print...a 24 x 36 print....a 44 x
66 print...


Robert

On 8/19/02 7:43 PM, "tboleyyh" <tyler@...> wrote:

> I'm told some of the controls advanced users would definitely want in a pro
> RIP are not available in the crrent Mac version.
> I don't claim to be advanced, but I would certainly want all of those options,
> as I would want to use the RIP for a number of
> purposes.
> It really sounds like it's geared toward the photographic printer that doesn't
> mind a bit of a black box, as long as the prints
> are beautiful.
> I hope to hear more as it developes.
> Tyler

Imageprint 5.0 (the currently shipping version for the mac) is very close in
feature set to the Windows version.  I'm told that the OSX version will be
identical.

Robert

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Robert Morrison 
<rmorrison@p...> wrote:

> >>>>> (9600) $4995 x 50% = $2497.50
>>>>> > (7600) $2995 x 50% = $1497.50
>>>>> > (2200) $699 x 71% = $496.29

> And how much do you charge for a 13 x 19 print...a 24 x 36 
print....a 44 x
> 66 print...
> Robert


I merely asked an honest question about why this company 
breaks the standard accepted practice by having this sliding 
scale, for various printers. I have not yet received an answer why 
this is so. I am open to there being a reason. Until I do, it just 
makes me hesitate a bit.

How about this:

Photoshop7Consumer (limit of 30meg file) $199
Photoshop7ProSumer (limit of 100meg file) $399
Photoshop7Pro (no file limit) $699

Wouldn't you wonder too?

And for that matter, from my limited perspective, why should 
software that's print-only be four times the price of Photoshop 7? 
Is the code THAT much more complex than PS7?

At some point, Adobe found a price point that that knew that large 
volumes of graphics pros would jump in the pool. I just say that 
ColorByte has not found that point yet.

And they're also talking to people on this list, and the 9000 list, 
who have been promised the moon before. We are, Thank God, 
a skeptical bunch.

MTucker

I hate to jump into these discussions but as an ImagePrint user - I have
never been disappointed by the product or the fact that based on features
and capability, they have a sales model based on a sliding scale.

There are other examples of this model - Silverfast  has different prices
for different scanners (for a Coolscan III its $119.00 but for my LS800 its
$600.00) and  Adobe's Framemaker software is $799.00 for MAC and Win but
$1350.00 for Unix. Let's not forget that there is a consumer version of
Photoshop (Photoshop Elements 2.0) at $99.00 - cleverly labeled with a
slightly different name.

ImagePrint does much more than print quadtones, for the large printers (I
don't know the features on the desktop versions) it is also a network print
queue and page optimizer designed to save paper by loading many jobs to one
sheet. As an artist I don't use those feature but that is not Colorbyte's
problem. 

Wendel

> I merely asked an honest question about why this company
> breaks the standard accepted practice by having this sliding
> scale, for various printers. I have not yet received an answer why
> this is so. I am open to there being a reason. Until I do, it just
> makes me hesitate a bit.
> 
> How about this:
> 
> Photoshop7Consumer (limit of 30meg file) $199
> Photoshop7ProSumer (limit of 100meg file) $399
> Photoshop7Pro (no file limit) $699
> 
> Wouldn't you wonder too?
> 
> And for that matter, from my limited perspective, why should
> software that's print-only be four times the price of Photoshop 7?
> Is the code THAT much more complex than PS7?
> 
> At some point, Adobe found a price point that that knew that large
> volumes of graphics pros would jump in the pool. I just say that
> ColorByte has not found that point yet.
> 
> And they're also talking to people on this list, and the 9000 list,
> who have been promised the moon before. We are, Thank God,
> a skeptical bunch.
> 
> MTucker

On 8/20/02 9:15 AM, "marktuckerdotcom" <mtucker508@...> wrote:

> Photoshop7Consumer (limit of 30meg file) $199
> Photoshop7ProSumer (limit of 100meg file) $399
> Photoshop7Pro (no file limit) $699
> 
> Wouldn't you wonder too?

Not an uncommon practice at all...ever buy server software?  Filemaker pro?
Dantz Retrospect? What about Adobe Elements vs. Photoshop. Ever heard of
Oracle and SAP...totally priced to what the end user is going to do with it.
This pricing scheme is the standard in the pro software markets.

Robert

marktuckerdotcom wrote:
>Sounds like a bunch of guys in a room saying, "What will
> each level of the market bear?"...


Mark;

Is that not how you price your commercial photography services ?  :) I
know That is how I do it!

-Jeff

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., jeffm@g... wrote:
> Mark; 
> Is that not how you price your commercial photography 
services ?  :) I
> know That is how I do it!

Listen, you punks. Don't confuse me with the facts. OK, OK, that's 
how I do it too. 

I'll stop arguing about it now. But I *could* say, "well, a retail 
product is much different from services rendered from an 
individual on a job by job basis", but I won't.

And to reply to RobertM, there was once a time when I priced all 
my prints the same; no matter the size. When you really think 
about it, the paper cost is a small issue in the whole equation.

I give up. But I'm still not writing a $2500 check for a piece of 
software. But you guys win.

MT

There are plenty of examples of a product being priced for the platform. 
The scientific s/w package Machematica cost a lot more on a Sun or Cray 
than on a PC or Mac. The same for Matlab. It fact I would think this is 
more the rule than the exception.

Truman

Wendel White wrote:

> I hate to jump into these discussions but as an ImagePrint user - I have
> never been disappointed by the product or the fact that based on features
> and capability, they have a sales model based on a sliding scale.
>
> There are other examples of this model - Silverfast  has different prices
> for different scanners (for a Coolscan III its $119.00 but for my 
> LS800 its
> $600.00) and  Adobe's Framemaker software is $799.00 for MAC and Win but
> $1350.00 for Unix. Let's not forget that there is a consumer version of
> Photoshop (Photoshop Elements 2.0) at $99.00 - cleverly labeled with a
> slightly different name.
>
> ImagePrint does much more than print quadtones, for the large printers (I
> don't know the features on the desktop versions) it is also a network 
> print
> queue and page optimizer designed to save paper by loading many jobs 
> to one
> sheet. As an artist I don't use those feature but that is not Colorbyte's
> problem.
>
> Wendel

> There are plenty of examples of a product being priced for the platform.
> The scientific s/w package Machematica cost a lot more on a Sun or Cray
> than on a PC or Mac. The same for Matlab. It fact I would think this is
> more the rule than the exception.
>
> Truman

Truman,

That has always been true for CAD/EDA tools (Computer Aided
Design/Electronic Design Automation).  Unix variants, though they do exactly
the same thing, and possibly less even, cost near 2x the PC variant!!!

Regards,

Austin

Look at SilverFast's pricing model. Higher priced scanner...higer priced SilverFast.
Stan

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Austin Franklin 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2002 3:34 PM
  Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Imageprint


  > There are plenty of examples of a product being priced for the platform.
  > The scientific s/w package Machematica cost a lot more on a Sun or Cray
  > than on a PC or Mac. The same for Matlab. It fact I would think this is
  > more the rule than the exception.
  >
  > Truman

  Truman,

  That has always been true for CAD/EDA tools (Computer Aided
  Design/Electronic Design Automation).  Unix variants, though they do exactly
  the same thing, and possibly less even, cost near 2x the PC variant!!!

  Regards,

  Austin


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

We love you man!  :-)  Its just tough love.  In exchange for your patience
you will receive one free copy of the german language version of the grey
balancer!  Ha Ha.

Robert

On 8/20/02 11:27 AM, "marktuckerdotcom" <mtucker508@...> wrote:

> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., jeffm@g... wrote:
>> Mark; 
>> Is that not how you price your commercial photography
> services ?  :) I
>> know That is how I do it!
> 
> Listen, you punks. Don't confuse me with the facts. OK, OK, that's
> how I do it too. 
> 
> I'll stop arguing about it now. But I *could* say, "well, a retail
> product is much different from services rendered from an
> individual on a job by job basis", but I won't.
> 
> And to reply to RobertM, there was once a time when I priced all
> my prints the same; no matter the size. When you really think
> about it, the paper cost is a small issue in the whole equation.
> 
> I give up. But I'm still not writing a $2500 check for a piece of
> software. But you guys win.
> 
> MT
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
> page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
> &amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot;
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
>

Andrew,
 
You and I are in 110% agreement on your first point. The one consistent
behavior I've noticed out of Epson is that they will do every sneaky
underhanded thing they can do to ensure that you have to use their ink,
waste as much of it as possible, and charge 20 prices for it. Examples
are the chipped carts, the $115 photo to matte black ink switches
(totally unnecessary to design the 7600/9600 this way except to rip off
the customer), etc.  I dislike the company and hope that either
competition improves or the consumer protection authorities here and
abroad jerk a big knot in their collective butt. So, I would not be at
all surprised if the "no color adjustment" approach was designed
specifically to waste ink.
 
 
Lloyd

-----Original Message-----
From: thedigitaldog [mailto:andrew@...] 
Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2002 8:54 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Imageprint



Well Ink does hit the paper... It's certainly not hitting as good as it
could or 
should. Want to see just what the driver really does? Send a file out
using "No 
Color Adjustment." That's how all the Epson profiles are based (on that
driver 
behavior). It's god awful. I sometimes wonder if some color scientist
tested the 
method in which the most ink would be wasted in order to drive the
printer in 
this fashion. 






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same page.

Please follow these basic guidelines:
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- Include the address of your website, if you have one.
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to
keep them short.
- As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject
header.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Robert-

I spoke with them a couple of months ago and they were not willing to 
discount a second license at that time. I was also disappointed they 
started witht he 1280 printer and have nothing for the 1160...but 
that probably would change if it really lived up to hopes, one could 
upgrade the printers.

Let me just understand one very important thing...are you saying this 
is really a software solution that prints BW (profiled) prints that 
are as good as PIEZO or (Epson with Roark curves) and you are using 
the new 7 color Epson OEM inks???

If that is so, I would seriously look at it again... the nirvana of 
color and toned BW prints from the same printer could really be 
efficient... I had always thought the proposition still would require 
MIS or Piezo ink dedicated to BW prints and IP software just 
replacing PiezoBW...

thanks,

Tom O'Connell

TomOC@...
www.thomasoconnell.com



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Robert Morrison 
<rmorrison@p...> wrote:
> On 8/19/02 9:18 AM, "Martin Wesley" <mwesley250@e...> wrote:
> 
> > Are you personally using the desktop version?
> 
> Yes
> 
> > If so, are you satisfied that
> > it equals the performance of the large format version?
> 
> Yes
> 
> > I hear lots of
> > wonderful things about the IP4 and the 7000 but nothing good 
about the
> > desktop version. Will they really do profiles for the desktop 
version if you
> > send them targets or is that service for the wide format printers 
only?
> 
> Yes
> 
> > I am rather confused since they list support for Lyson, PiezoBW, 
MIS-FS and
> > MIS-VM but if you go to their download section only MIS-FS for 7 
papers are
> > listed for the 1270. 1280 and 1290 Epson's. This does not seem 
like a good
> > buy for $500. They have been promising support for all the quads 
but so far
> > it seems like hype and no delivery.
> 
> I believe that support for VM was hijacked by the new epson printer.
> Personally, I wouldn't use VM now that the ultracromes are out for 
toning.
> You can get from cool to sepia in a single ink set that you can 
also use for
> color.
> 
> There aren't a lot of profile made already...but they will make 
whatever you
> need...that's the key to imageprint.
>  
> > Then there is also this paragraph:
> > 
> > "IMAGEPRINT is purchased on a per printer basis rather than per 
computer.
> > Once the printer has been licensed, you can print to it from as 
many
> > different computers as you'd like using one copy of IMAGEPRINT. 
Printers can
> > be added at any time and no additional hardware is required. The 
same dongle
> > can be used to unlock an unlimited number of printers. To add a 
new printer,
> > simply purchase the additional license, and we'll provide you 
with a new
> > encryption key that will unlock IMAGEPRINT."
> > 
> > So I would need to spend $1000 for my two 1280's which is not very
> > attractive. They are making a mistake trying to sell to the 
desktop market
> > using the same marketing model they use to sell to service 
bureaus. Their
> > interest in the desktop printers seems pretty weak which also 
makes me
> > reluctant to get involved.
> > 
> No, the license is not nearly as much for the second printer.  Just 
speak
> with them directly...my guess is that you might be able to get a 
second
> desktop printer thrown in for free...but I'm not them.  I have three
> licenses that allow me to run two desktop printers and my 7000 at 
the same

> time...with good performance.
> 
> Robert

Not only would printing color and toned b&w from one printer be nirvana,
but the possibility of printing b&w on glossy paper is really really
tempting. And on archival inks.
 
-Andy

	-----Original Message-----
	From: tomoc [mailto:TomOC@...] 
	Sent: Friday, August 23, 2002 3:59 PM
	To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
	Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Imageprint
	
	
	Robert-
	
	I spoke with them a couple of months ago and they were not
willing to 
	discount a second license at that time. I was also disappointed
they 
	started witht he 1280 printer and have nothing for the
1160...but 
	that probably would change if it really lived up to hopes, one
could 
	upgrade the printers.
	
	Let me just understand one very important thing...are you saying
this 
	is really a software solution that prints BW (profiled) prints
that 
	are as good as PIEZO or (Epson with Roark curves) and you are
using 
	the new 7 color Epson OEM inks???
	
	If that is so, I would seriously look at it again... the nirvana
of 
	color and toned BW prints from the same printer could really be 
	efficient... I had always thought the proposition still would
require 
	MIS or Piezo ink dedicated to BW prints and IP software just 
	replacing PiezoBW...
	
	thanks,
	
	Tom O'Connell
	
	TomOC@...
	www.thomasoconnell.com
	
	
	
	--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Robert Morrison 
	<rmorrison@p...> wrote:
	> On 8/19/02 9:18 AM, "Martin Wesley" <mwesley250@e...> wrote:
	> 
	> > Are you personally using the desktop version?
	> 
	> Yes
	> 
	> > If so, are you satisfied that
	> > it equals the performance of the large format version?
	> 
	> Yes
	> 
	> > I hear lots of
	> > wonderful things about the IP4 and the 7000 but nothing good

	about the
	> > desktop version. Will they really do profiles for the
desktop 
	version if you
	> > send them targets or is that service for the wide format
printers 
	only?
	> 
	> Yes
	> 
	> > I am rather confused since they list support for Lyson,
PiezoBW, 
	MIS-FS and
	> > MIS-VM but if you go to their download section only MIS-FS
for 7 
	papers are
	> > listed for the 1270. 1280 and 1290 Epson's. This does not
seem 
	like a good
	> > buy for $500. They have been promising support for all the
quads 
	but so far
	> > it seems like hype and no delivery.
	> 
	> I believe that support for VM was hijacked by the new epson
printer.
	> Personally, I wouldn't use VM now that the ultracromes are out
for 
	toning.
	> You can get from cool to sepia in a single ink set that you
can 
	also use for
	> color.
	> 
	> There aren't a lot of profile made already...but they will
make 
	whatever you
	> need...that's the key to imageprint.
	>  
	> > Then there is also this paragraph:
	> > 
	> > "IMAGEPRINT is purchased on a per printer basis rather than
per 
	computer.
	> > Once the printer has been licensed, you can print to it from
as 
	many
	> > different computers as you'd like using one copy of
IMAGEPRINT. 
	Printers can
	> > be added at any time and no additional hardware is required.
The 
	same dongle
	> > can be used to unlock an unlimited number of printers. To
add a 
	new printer,
	> > simply purchase the additional license, and we'll provide
you 
	with a new
	> > encryption key that will unlock IMAGEPRINT."
	> > 
	> > So I would need to spend $1000 for my two 1280's which is
not very
	> > attractive. They are making a mistake trying to sell to the 
	desktop market
	> > using the same marketing model they use to sell to service 
	bureaus. Their
	> > interest in the desktop printers seems pretty weak which
also 
	makes me
	> > reluctant to get involved.
	> > 
	> No, the license is not nearly as much for the second printer.
Just 
	speak
	> with them directly...my guess is that you might be able to get
a 
	second
	> desktop printer thrown in for free...but I'm not them.  I have
three
	> licenses that allow me to run two desktop printers and my 7000
at 
	the same
	> time...with good performance.
	> 
	> Robert
	
	
	Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks,
Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is
at:
	
	http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
	
	If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you
wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting
this same page.
	
	Please follow these basic guidelines:
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	- Include the address of your website, if you have one.
	- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier
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subject header.
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&amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot;
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various resources on the homepage. 
	
	
	
	
	Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> . 
	



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>   > There are plenty of examples of a product being priced for the 
platform.
>   > The scientific s/w package Machematica cost a lot more on a Sun 
or Cray
>   > than on a PC or Mac. The same for Matlab. It fact I would think 
this is
>   > more the rule than the exception.
>   >
>   > Truman
> 
>   Truman,
> 
>   That has always been true for CAD/EDA tools (Computer Aided
>   Design/Electronic Design Automation).  Unix variants, though they 
do exactly
>   the same thing, and possibly less even, cost near 2x the PC 
variant!!!
> 
>   Regards,
> 
>   Austin


Austin & all all-

It's crazy to argue from our point of view just how IP should price 
their product...it needs to be addressed from THEIR point of view. 

I'ts my impression they are a small company that has made it this far 
by providing custom high end support to profession shops...mainly 
design shops. And that is how they establish the pricing model.

I must admit I was totally shocked by the one printer/multiple pc 
scheme. To me that was backwards...I use one or two pc's and 4-6 
printers. But the design shop may have 15 networked PCs all using one 
printer. For them, this is the best pricing policy.

If you put yourself in IP's shoes for a minute, you will see that 
they probably don't trust the "consumer" market but they know and 
trust the professional market. If I were running a business that was 
successful, I would be very reluctant to pull the rug from the folks 
who got me there. 

Think about it...PiezoBW is a very big deal in a miniscule market 
segment...we have no idea how many copies Jon has sold. But if you 
figure that 50% of this forum and 80% of his (minus some of the 
duplicates) all bought it... he may have only sold a couple thousand 
copies...maybe he would have made more money selling 1/4 the number 
of copies at 4x the price and because they would have been more 
sophisticated customers, he could have served them better and much 
much more cheaply than he can the 2000 of us...

Only time will tell which approach is right, but these guys are doing 
this and need to make a living from it...and they have to live with 
their choices... we can switch back and forth from Piezo to IP and 
back and it's not the major factor in our financial future.

I give a lot of credit to both companies stiving to create a 
breakthrough technology in an area where relatively very few people 
really care about it...and perservering...good on 'ya, guys.

Tom O'Connell

TomOC@...
www.thomasoconnell.com

HP do a 12 inkprinter, you can have quadtones plus 8 ink colour or 12 ink
colour. Only in 44" though.

Julian
----- Original Message -----
From: "Andrew Biggs" <abiggs@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, August 23, 2002 11:02 PM
Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Imageprint


> Not only would printing color and toned b&w from one printer be nirvana,
> but the possibility of printing b&w on glossy paper is really really
> tempting. And on archival inks.
>
> -Andy
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: tomoc [mailto:TomOC@...]
> Sent: Friday, August 23, 2002 3:59 PM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Imageprint
>
>
> Robert-
>
> I spoke with them a couple of months ago and they were not
> willing to
> discount a second license at that time. I was also disappointed
> they
> started witht he 1280 printer and have nothing for the
> 1160...but
> that probably would change if it really lived up to hopes, one
> could
> upgrade the printers.
>
> Let me just understand one very important thing...are you saying
> this
> is really a software solution that prints BW (profiled) prints
> that
> are as good as PIEZO or (Epson with Roark curves) and you are
> using
> the new 7 color Epson OEM inks???
>
> If that is so, I would seriously look at it again... the nirvana
> of
> color and toned BW prints from the same printer could really be
> efficient... I had always thought the proposition still would
> require
> MIS or Piezo ink dedicated to BW prints and IP software just
> replacing PiezoBW...
>
> thanks,
>
> Tom O'Connell
>
> TomOC@...
> www.thomasoconnell.com
>
>
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Robert Morrison
> <rmorrison@p...> wrote:
> > On 8/19/02 9:18 AM, "Martin Wesley" <mwesley250@e...> wrote:
> >
> > > Are you personally using the desktop version?
> >
> > Yes
> >
> > > If so, are you satisfied that
> > > it equals the performance of the large format version?
> >
> > Yes
> >
> > > I hear lots of
> > > wonderful things about the IP4 and the 7000 but nothing good
>
> about the
> > > desktop version. Will they really do profiles for the
> desktop
> version if you
> > > send them targets or is that service for the wide format
> printers
> only?
> >
> > Yes
> >
> > > I am rather confused since they list support for Lyson,
> PiezoBW,
> MIS-FS and
> > > MIS-VM but if you go to their download section only MIS-FS
> for 7
> papers are
> > > listed for the 1270. 1280 and 1290 Epson's. This does not
> seem
> like a good
> > > buy for $500. They have been promising support for all the
> quads
> but so far
> > > it seems like hype and no delivery.
> >
> > I believe that support for VM was hijacked by the new epson
> printer.
> > Personally, I wouldn't use VM now that the ultracromes are out
> for
> toning.
> > You can get from cool to sepia in a single ink set that you
> can
> also use for
> > color.
> >
> > There aren't a lot of profile made already...but they will
> make
> whatever you
> > need...that's the key to imageprint.
> >
> > > Then there is also this paragraph:
> > >
> > > "IMAGEPRINT is purchased on a per printer basis rather than
> per
> computer.
> > > Once the printer has been licensed, you can print to it from
> as
> many
> > > different computers as you'd like using one copy of
> IMAGEPRINT.
> Printers can
> > > be added at any time and no additional hardware is required.
> The
> same dongle
> > > can be used to unlock an unlimited number of printers. To
> add a
> new printer,
> > > simply purchase the additional license, and we'll provide
> you
> with a new
> > > encryption key that will unlock IMAGEPRINT."
> > >
> > > So I would need to spend $1000 for my two 1280's which is
> not very
> > > attractive. They are making a mistake trying to sell to the
> desktop market
> > > using the same marketing model they use to sell to service
> bureaus. Their
> > > interest in the desktop printers seems pretty weak which
> also
> makes me
> > > reluctant to get involved.
> > >
> > No, the license is not nearly as much for the second printer.
> Just
> speak
> > with them directly...my guess is that you might be able to get
> a
> second
> > desktop printer thrown in for free...but I'm not them.  I have
> three
> > licenses that allow me to run two desktop printers and my 7000
> at
> the same
> > time...with good performance.
> >
> > Robert
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks,
> Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is
> at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you
> wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting
> this same page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier
> messages to keep them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the
> subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
> &amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot;
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the
> various resources on the homepage.
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
&amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot;
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.

>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "tomoc" <TomOC@s...> wrote:

> Let me just understand one very important thing...are you saying this 
> is really a software solution that prints BW (profiled) prints that 
> are as good as PIEZO or (Epson with Roark curves) and you are using 
> the new 7 color Epson OEM inks???

YUP

On 8/23/02 1:59 PM, "tomoc" <TomOC@...> wrote:

> Robert-
> 
> I spoke with them a couple of months ago and they were not willing to
> discount a second license at that time. I was also disappointed they
> started witht he 1280 printer and have nothing for the 1160...but
> that probably would change if it really lived up to hopes, one could
> upgrade the printers.

They have no plans to support 4 color printers for BW work.
 
> Let me just understand one very important thing...are you saying this
> is really a software solution that prints BW (profiled) prints that
> are as good as PIEZO or (Epson with Roark curves) and you are using
> the new 7 color Epson OEM inks???

No, Imageprint is good with the ultrachromes, but it does not give you
Imageprint/quad ink performance...but it will certainly be good enough for
many people...particularly if they want to print glossy or pearl prints.
The problem is quite simple...the ultrachrome light grey is too dark and
thus the hilights are not as smooth as quad prints.

> If that is so, I would seriously look at it again... the nirvana of
> color and toned BW prints from the same printer could really be
> efficient... I had always thought the proposition still would require
> MIS or Piezo ink dedicated to BW prints and IP software just
> replacing PiezoBW...

The warm toned imageprint BW/Ultrachrome print that I saw was not too good,
the shadows were badly compressed, the neutral print looked good
though...but it should be possible to get good toned prints.
> 
Robert

I will shortly receive a copy of ImagePrint 5.  Shipment has been 
delayed because some optimisation for Matte black ultrachrome ink.  
I'll be trying that out for B&W output on a 7600 with Ultrachromes, 
and a 7000 with PiezoTone B&W selenium inks.

I'll get back to the group with my subjective impressions in a couple 
of weeks.
--
Quentin

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Robert Morrison 
<rmorrison@p...> wrote:
> On 8/23/02 1:59 PM, "tomoc" <TomOC@s...> wrote:
> 
> > Robert-
> > 
> > I spoke with them a couple of months ago and they were not 
willing to
> > discount a second license at that time. I was also disappointed 
they
> > started witht he 1280 printer and have nothing for the 1160...but
> > that probably would change if it really lived up to hopes, one 
could
> > upgrade the printers.
> 
> They have no plans to support 4 color printers for BW work.
>  
> > Let me just understand one very important thing...are you saying 
this
> > is really a software solution that prints BW (profiled) prints 
that
> > are as good as PIEZO or (Epson with Roark curves) and you are 
using
> > the new 7 color Epson OEM inks???
> 
> No, Imageprint is good with the ultrachromes, but it does not give 
you
> Imageprint/quad ink performance...but it will certainly be good 
enough for
> many people...particularly if they want to print glossy or pearl 
prints.
> The problem is quite simple...the ultrachrome light grey is too 
dark and
> thus the hilights are not as smooth as quad prints.
> 
> > If that is so, I would seriously look at it again... the nirvana 
of
> > color and toned BW prints from the same printer could really be
> > efficient... I had always thought the proposition still would 
require
> > MIS or Piezo ink dedicated to BW prints and IP software just
> > replacing PiezoBW...
> 
> The warm toned imageprint BW/Ultrachrome print that I saw was not 
too good,

> the shadows were badly compressed, the neutral print looked good
> though...but it should be possible to get good toned prints.
> > 
> Robert

Doesn't sound like the printing nirvana that thedigitaldog was raving about a 
week or so ago.  We will continue to watch on the sidelines for now.

On 8/27/02 6:35 AM, "lawrencetrek" <ltitle@...> wrote:

> Doesn't sound like the printing nirvana that thedigitaldog was raving about a
> week or so ago.  We will continue to watch on the sidelines for now.
> 

I believe that imageprint and the piezotone inks are the best option out
there for BW printing at the moment.  The 2200 and Imageprint would be a
good option if you were committed to having only one printer or absolutely
need glossy/pearl BW output on a regular basis and were not concerned about
silver print longevity. There are definite weaknesses to the Ultrachrome
inks (price, longevity and hilight detail when compared to quad
options)...but I'm sure they will be the right solution for some
people...but I believe from what I've seen that they are only a solution
when paired with Imageprint.  That said, Imageprint is also the best
solution at this point for people using quad inks.  This is particularly
true if your are using the piezotones.

Robert

Funny you should say that...

It seems this wonderprogram is now available @ inkjetmall.

The website says:

Imageprint 5.0 Unprecendented capabilities for quadblack PiezoTone inks & 
the EPSON 1270, 1280, 1290, 7000, 7500, 9000, 9500. For color printing add 
the 10000. For color-greyscale support use the new EPSON 7600, 9600 ...

The plot thickens.

Meanwhile, I just received my PiezoTone selenium and WN sample images 
printed on PR paper.  Now, I wonder what printer were they printed on, and 
what driver did they use for these samples (piezo vs. IP 5.0).

Surprise, surprise, wink, wink!  I'd guess that your sample prints were
probably done with the piezo software...but not for long...my guess is that
Inkjetmall will be completely switching to Imageprint in the near future.


Robert

On 8/27/02 9:36 PM, "lawrencetrek" <ltitle@...> wrote:

> Funny you should say that...
> 
> It seems this wonderprogram is now available @ inkjetmall.
> 
> The website says:
> 
> Imageprint 5.0 Unprecendented capabilities for quadblack PiezoTone inks &
> the EPSON 1270, 1280, 1290, 7000, 7500, 9000, 9500. For color printing add
> the 10000. For color-greyscale support use the new EPSON 7600, 9600 ...
> 
> The plot thickens.
> 
> Meanwhile, I just received my PiezoTone selenium and WN sample images
> printed on PR paper.  Now, I wonder what printer were they printed on, and
> what driver did they use for these samples (piezo vs. IP 5.0).
> 
>

On the other hand, on the Piezography site, reference is made to

"Our exclusive all-new large format monochromatic version" of 
Piezography B&W.

If it is "exclusive" it should be different in some way from 
ImagePrint 5, unless I suppose a mono only version is what 
is "exclusive" 

Furthermore, the now-abandoned Piezography 2 *was* a version of 
ImagePrint. 

But then again, ImagePrint 5 takes top billing on the inkjetmall 
site.  It is right there at the top of the page.

Oh well, its good to have the choice although Pieo Pro 24 will take a 
lot of beating.

--
Quentin

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Robert Morrison 
<rmorrison@p...> wrote:
> Surprise, surprise, wink, wink!  I'd guess that your sample prints 
were
> probably done with the piezo software...but not for long...my guess 
is that
> Inkjetmall will be completely switching to Imageprint in the near 
future.
> 
> 
> Robert
> 
> On 8/27/02 9:36 PM, "lawrencetrek" <ltitle@h...> wrote:
> 
> > Funny you should say that...
> > 
> > It seems this wonderprogram is now available @ inkjetmall.
> > 
> > The website says:
> > 
> > Imageprint 5.0 Unprecendented capabilities for quadblack 
PiezoTone inks &
> > the EPSON 1270, 1280, 1290, 7000, 7500, 9000, 9500. For color 
printing add
> > the 10000. For color-greyscale support use the new EPSON 7600, 
9600 ...
> > 
> > The plot thickens.
> > 
> > Meanwhile, I just received my PiezoTone selenium and WN sample 
images
> > printed on PR paper.  Now, I wonder what printer were they 
printed on, and

> > what driver did they use for these samples (piezo vs. IP 5.0).
> > 
> >

On 8/28/02 3:04 AM, "qdfb" <qdb@...> wrote:

> If it is "exclusive" it should be different in some way from
> ImagePrint 5, unless I suppose a mono only version is what
> is "exclusive" 

Good thinking...
 
> Furthermore, the now-abandoned Piezography 2 *was* a version of
> ImagePrint. 

That's right...:-)

Robert

There is tons in the archive on Imageprint if you are interested.  Several
of us have tested it extensively.  It can produce very neutral prints from a
2200 however the shadows tend to be compressed.  The tonality range is also
rather limited compared to what you can get by using Ink Jet Control.
Colorbyte is releasing version IP v5.6 in the near future (probably next
week) and this may address the shadow compression issue as it is reported to
give black point control for both color and BW files.

Robert

On 5/30/03 4:30 AM, "owenpevans" <owenpevans@...> wrote:

> Hi everyone,
> 
> I was reading about the RIP from Colobyte named Imageprint 5.5 and the last
> statement made by Michael Reichmann is quoted below. I thought this may be
> of interest to several of you on this list.
> 
> http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/software/imageprint5-5.shtml
> 
> "In my opinion Imageprint is capable of creating the most neutral B&W prints
> from an Epson 2100 / 2200 of any method that I've yet used, including
> Epson's Gray Balancer (which is not officially available for the 2200)."
> 
> Cheers,
> Owen P. Evans
> J.33.3
>