Digital BW, The Print

Anthony Atkielski wrote:

>Keith writes:
>
>  
>
>>You are using PS 6 or PS 7 correct?
>>    
>>
>
>No, PS 5.02.
>
>  
>
That's the second half of the problem..

With PS 6, changes were made in the way Photoshop instructs the video 
card to display certain features..  (interactive Clipping in Levels is 
one example)...

Your mentioing a Video LUT option in the Prefs (where now there is only 
a Video Alpha option checkbox) was the clue that lead me to guess you 
were using PS 5 or 4....

I'd suggest moving at least to to PS6  to get the features working.. 
Your nVidia card SHOULD be capable of driving the display to  use the 
features.. I might run a trial version first if I were you, to make sure 
though..
Keith

 

"Just some guy," and caretaker of the Multiverse's largest EPSON printer 
User Community (highly recommended by Vogon Poets and MegaDodo 
Publications), at:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EPSON_Printers/
 
"For the rest of you out there, the secret is to bang the rocks together 
guys"

 




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Stephen writes:

> Is that an artifact of this particular scan
> or will hold generally?

It will hold generally.  The Levels adjustment is nothing more than an
extremely simplified version of the Curves adjustment.

> The only problem with working in levels in 16 bit
> is that as you cannot use an adjustment level, there
> is no going back to revise what you have done.

You can take a snapshot before and after, and use the history brush to
switch between the two in specific areas, which is better than nothing.

Concerning levels:

>The Levels adjustment is nothing more than an
>extremely simplified version of the Curves adjustment.

Levels offers a couple of capabilities that distinguish it from Curves tool 
and make it one of the essential Photoshop tools. First, of course, is the 
histogram that lets you see the darkest and lightest values in your data 
and adjust black and white points accordingly. Second is that, when you 
hold down <alt>/<option> while dragging the black and white points up and 
down, Photoshop shows you the actual parts of the image that will be 
clipped. Try it if you don't already know about it. You'll be amazed!

-- Victor Landweber

I also made a few experiments, and actually found that using the levels tool
will actually enhance grain/grain aliasing more than curves or the
burn/dodge tool. Anyway, the burn/dodge tool is quite awkward to use when
you have a large section of the image to burn or dodge, as it is incremental
(i.e. every stroke adds) so it's almost impossible to evenly darken skies,
for instance. On the other hand, curves are better than levels in general,
but it depends how steep a curve you have to apply to get the image where
you want to.
What I found can be a solution (but I'm still exploring) is to save a copy
of the image before setting black and white points, so that contrast is very
low (i.e. grain doesn't show). You can then  darken/lighten it as needed and
use it as a layer above the "correct" image, with a mask to affect only the
parts you want to, playing with the blending mode (overlay, multiply and
soft/hard light being the most effective) to fine tune the results.
 
Alessandro

-----Original Message-----
From: Stephen Kobrin [mailto:skobrin@...]
Sent: Monday, June 09, 2003 2:32
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] levels and grain


As a result of all of the posts over the last week about levels and 
grain, spent some time this afternoon experimenting with a scanned 
image that degrades easily -- a very dirty white door on a rotting 
old house.  It did appear that using curves rather than levels (16 
bit) did lessen image degradation considerably.  Is that an artifact 
of this particular scan or will hold generally?  The only problem 
with working in levels in 16 bit is that as you cannot use an 
adjustment level, there is no going back to revise what you have done.

Steve



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Allessandro,

I come to a similar result differently, by using a copy of the 
background layer after switching to 8 bit, often in soft light mode, 
and then erasing the parts of the layer that produces effects I do 
not want.  Also, rather than use the burn/dodge tool, I use a layer 
set to soft light and medium gray (a box pops up asking if you want 
to set it to medium gray after you choose soft light).  Using that 
layer, you can burn by setting the foreground color to black and 
using the brush tool and dodge by using white as the foreground 
color.  The advantage over the burn/dodge tool is flexibility as you 
have control over both the brush and opacity.  (The opacity control 
seems finer grained that that using the tool.)

Steve

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Alessandro Pardi 
<alessandro.pardi@i...> wrote:
> I also made a few experiments, and actually found that using the 
levels tool
> will actually enhance grain/grain aliasing more than curves or the
> burn/dodge tool. Anyway, the burn/dodge tool is quite awkward to 
use when
> you have a large section of the image to burn or dodge, as it is 
incremental
> (i.e. every stroke adds) so it's almost impossible to evenly darken 
skies,
> for instance. On the other hand, curves are better than levels in 
general,
> but it depends how steep a curve you have to apply to get the image 
where
> you want to.
> What I found can be a solution (but I'm still exploring) is to save 
a copy
> of the image before setting black and white points, so that 
contrast is very
> low (i.e. grain doesn't show). You can then  darken/lighten it as 
needed and
> use it as a layer above the "correct" image, with a mask to affect 
only the
> parts you want to, playing with the blending mode (overlay, 
multiply and
> soft/hard light being the most effective) to fine tune the results.
>  
> Alessandro
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Stephen Kobrin [mailto:skobrin@h...]
> Sent: Monday, June 09, 2003 2:32
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Digital BW] levels and grain
> 
> 
> As a result of all of the posts over the last week about levels and 
> grain, spent some time this afternoon experimenting with a scanned 
> image that degrades easily -- a very dirty white door on a rotting 
> old house.  It did appear that using curves rather than levels (16 
> bit) did lessen image degradation considerably.  Is that an 
artifact 
> of this particular scan or will hold generally?  The only problem 
> with working in levels in 16 bit is that as you cannot use an 
> adjustment level, there is no going back to revise what you have 
done.
> 
> Steve
> 
> 
> 
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> 
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> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Alessandro Pardi 
<alessandro.pardi@i...> wrote:
> I also made a few experiments, and actually found that using the levels tool
> will actually enhance grain/grain aliasing more than curves or the
> burn/dodge tool. Anyway, the burn/dodge tool is quite awkward to use when

Alessandro,

I don't know if you are aware of it or not, but using masked adjustment layers is a 
great way to do contrast and value control on your images.  All changes you make 
with the Burn/Dodge tools are more or less irreversible once they have left the history 
palette or the file is closed.

There is a pdf and sample image on my site that details exactly how to use this 
technique, if you aren't familiar with it I think you will find it quite interesting.

It's at: http://cirrus-digital.com

Click on the "Workshops" button on the home page and DL the 2 files you see there.

Cheers,
Phil
http://cirrus-digital.com
http://philbard.com

Hello Phil,

> There is a pdf and sample image on my site that details exactly 
>how to use this technique

Excellent article!  I know it's a lot of work, but I'm sure many
people will benefit from it.  I learned a lot from it, thanks very
much for making the time and effort.   

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Victor writes:

> Second is that, when you hold down <alt>/<option>
> while dragging the black and white points up and 
> down, Photoshop shows you the actual parts of the
> image that will be clipped. Try it if you don't
> already know about it. You'll be amazed!

This option apparently doesn't work under Windows except in 256-color mode.

it certainly does so, even in 16-bit mode!! :-))

just keep the ALT down, and point the mouse on one of the sliders all at the
same time! you will get either the shadows or the highligts - depending on
which slider you use :-))) it is a really good feature!

Having said that, there could be something wrong with your machine/setup!!!
Who knows but it does work here on several different machines running winXP
adn 2K :-) so there is hope

Henrik - just learning!

-----Original Message-----
From: Anthony Atkielski [mailto:anthony@...]
Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2003 3:13 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] levels and grain


Victor writes:

> Second is that, when you hold down <alt>/<option>
> while dragging the black and white points up and
> down, Photoshop shows you the actual parts of the
> image that will be clipped. Try it if you don't
> already know about it. You'll be amazed!

This option apparently doesn't work under Windows except in 256-color mode.


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> Having said that, there could be something wrong with
> your machine/setup!!!

The documentation says it requires the Video LUT option and/or 256-color
mode.  It doesn't seem to work for me, in 32-bit color mode, on WinXP (with
or without the LUT option checked).

Phil,
 
thanks for the link. I was indeed aware of adjustment layers, but this whole
thread started when Nick wrote about how he discovered that using the
dodge/burn tool (which I have always carefully stayed away from :-) rather
than levels produced images with way less apparent grain. So we were kinda
looking for alternative processes to the well established "curves and levels
with adjustment layers" method.
 
Alessandro

-----Original Message-----
From: Phil Bard [mailto:phil@...]
Sent: Monday, June 09, 2003 21:19
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] levels and grain


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Alessandro Pardi 
<alessandro.pardi@i...> wrote:
> I also made a few experiments, and actually found that using the levels
tool
> will actually enhance grain/grain aliasing more than curves or the
> burn/dodge tool. Anyway, the burn/dodge tool is quite awkward to use when

Alessandro,

I don't know if you are aware of it or not, but using masked adjustment
layers is a 
great way to do contrast and value control on your images.  All changes you
make 
with the Burn/Dodge tools are more or less irreversible once they have left
the history 
palette or the file is closed.

There is a pdf and sample image on my site that details exactly how to use
this 
technique, if you aren't familiar with it I think you will find it quite
interesting.

It's at: http://cirrus-digital.com <http://cirrus-digital.com> 

Click on the "Workshops" button on the home page and DL the 2 files you see
there.

Cheers,
Phil
http://cirrus-digital.com <http://cirrus-digital.com> 
http://philbard.com <http://philbard.com> 



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> > Having said that, there could be something wrong with
> > your machine/setup!!!
> The documentation says it requires the Video LUT option 
> and/or 256-color mode.  It doesn't seem to work for me, in 
> 32-bit color mode, on WinXP (with or without the LUT option checked).

I've tested this on at least three or four different XP machines and it
works on all of them. No problems with 32-bit color mode as far as I can
see... What type of graphics card do you have?

--
Daniel Staver
http://daniel.staver.no

Anthony Atkielski wrote:

>>Having said that, there could be something wrong with
>>your machine/setup!!!
>>    
>>
>
>The documentation says it requires the Video LUT option and/or 256-color
>mode.  It doesn't seem to work for me, in 32-bit color mode, on WinXP (with
>or without the LUT option checked).
>
>
>  
>
That simply means YOUR video card can't do it...

It works for me even in 32 bit mode..
Keith

 

"Just some guy," and caretaker of the Multiverse's largest EPSON printer 
User Community (highly recommended by Vogon Poets and MegaDodo 
Publications), at:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EPSON_Printers/
 
"For the rest of you out there, the secret is to bang the rocks together 
guys"

 




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Anthony Atkielski wrote:

>>Having said that, there could be something wrong with
>>your machine/setup!!!
>>    
>>
>
>The documentation says it requires the Video LUT option and/or 256-color
>mode.  It doesn't seem to work for me, in 32-bit color mode, on WinXP (with
>or without the LUT option checked).
>
>  
>
You are using PS 6 or PS 7 correct?
Keith

 

"Just some guy," and caretaker of the Multiverse's largest EPSON printer 
User Community (highly recommended by Vogon Poets and MegaDodo 
Publications), at:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EPSON_Printers/
 
"For the rest of you out there, the secret is to bang the rocks together 
guys"

 




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Daniel writes:

> I've tested this on at least three or four different
> XP machines and it works on all of them. No problems
> with 32-bit color mode as far as I can see... What
> type of graphics card do you have?

NVidia GeForce2 MX 100/200 64 MB

currently set to 1600x1200 with 32-bit color, 60 Hz refresh

Keith writes:

> That simply means YOUR video card can't do it...

That is self-evident.

> It works for me even in 32 bit mode..

Hmm ... so that would mean that YOUR video card can do it, right?

Keith writes:

> You are using PS 6 or PS 7 correct?

No, PS 5.02.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Alessandro Pardi 
<alessandro.pardi@i...> wrote:
> Phil,
>  
> thanks for the link. I was indeed aware of adjustment layers, but this whole
> thread started when Nick wrote about how he discovered that using the
> dodge/burn tool (which I have always carefully stayed away from :-) rather
> than levels produced images with way less apparent grain. So we were kinda
> looking for alternative processes to the well established "curves and levels
> with adjustment layers" method.
>  
> Alessandro

Alessandro,

Oops, sorry.  Didn't mean to sound condescending...

Phil
http://cirrus-digital.com
http://philbard.com

Absolutely no problem! I hope I didn't sound annoyed and my thanks for the
link were sincere :-)
 
Alessandro

-----Original Message-----
From: Phil Bard [mailto:phil@...]
Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2003 16:23
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] levels and grain


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Alessandro Pardi 
<alessandro.pardi@i...> wrote:
> Phil,
>  
> thanks for the link. I was indeed aware of adjustment layers, but this
whole
> thread started when Nick wrote about how he discovered that using the
> dodge/burn tool (which I have always carefully stayed away from :-) rather
> than levels produced images with way less apparent grain. So we were kinda
> looking for alternative processes to the well established "curves and
levels
> with adjustment layers" method.
>  
> Alessandro

Alessandro,

Oops, sorry.  Didn't mean to sound condescending...

Phil
http://cirrus-digital.com <http://cirrus-digital.com> 
http://philbard.com <http://philbard.com> 



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clayton Jones" <cj@c...> 
wrote:
> Hello Phil,

> 
> Excellent article!  I know it's a lot of work, but I'm sure many
> people will benefit from it.  I learned a lot from it, thanks very
> much for making the time and effort.   
> 
> Regards,
> Clayton

Clayton,

I'm glad it was of interest to you.  It was actually already written, it was one of 3 
chapters I contributed to Greg George's "50 Fast Photoshop 7 Techniques" book.

I will post the other ones on the site in the next few months...

Cheers,
Phil
http://cirrus-digital.com
http://philbard.com

Hi Steve, Allesandro

Reading all these postings over the last few days on methods of 
grading that do or don't avoid grain has been fascinating and quite a 
learning experience for me. I wish I'd known about this forum a long 
time ago - I could have saved myself a lot of aggravation. Education 
is enlightenment :).

Eccentric in the extreme as it is to use dodge and burn right the way 
through to create the majority of my contrast to minimise grain, I've 
done it recently when I was starting over on the images I've already 
graded - images that were overly grainy through my dumb over-use of 
levels layers. So I knew exactly how I wanted them to look going in. 

It's meant - using largely dodge and burn, and minimal use of Curves 
on selected parts of the image - that I've regraded an image from 
original scan to completion in less than two hours, often just an 
hour. On the rare occasion I've overdone it in one area of the image, 
I just layer in that part from the original and work on it again, so 
the use of dodge and burn has not had a terrible finality for me.

Also, having started as a painter years ago, I love the feel of using 
my Wacom pen and tablet with dodge and burn - I feel like I'm
painting again! (I could never use the mouse - no fun at all).

However, for future new photos, I'm going to use Curves layers with 
the History brush much more. Having said that, however, after 
experimenting with all the different methods discussed over the last 
couple of days, I still found that the grain was minimised the most 
when doing it my eccentric way, avoiding cranking up contrast through 
Levels/Curves altogether. However, I do acknowledge that it's kind of 
impractical - to say the least - to be painting the contrast into 
every bloody blade of grass!

Nick


.

I too have been following this with interest and it HAS made me 
rethink what I've been doing, I often use dodge / burn on masked 
selection areas, but only ever in highlight / shadow modes, never 
tried the midtone method, it DOES seem to reduce posterisation and 
grain.  

One point, however wonderful dodge/burn and curves may be, how do you 
set your black / white points???  I dont get this, my scans / digital 
images nearly always have unclipped headroom at one or both ends and 
I thought I had to do this via level setting.  Does on do this on a 
global basis to the image first and THEN play with the other tools?

Thanks for clearing up....

Steve




--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "nick90290" 
<NickBrandt@a...> wrote:
> Hi Steve, Allesandro
> 
> Reading all these postings over the last few days on methods of 
> grading that do or don't avoid grain has been fascinating and quite 
a 
> learning experience for me. I wish I'd known about this forum a 
long 
> time ago - I could have saved myself a lot of aggravation. 
Education 
> is enlightenment :).
> 
> Eccentric in the extreme as it is to use dodge and burn right the 
way 
> through to create the majority of my contrast to minimise grain, 
I've 
> done it recently when I was starting over on the images I've 
already 
> graded - images that were overly grainy through my dumb over-use of 
> levels layers. So I knew exactly how I wanted them to look going 
in. 
> 
> It's meant - using largely dodge and burn, and minimal use of 
Curves 
> on selected parts of the image - that I've regraded an image from 
> original scan to completion in less than two hours, often just an 
> hour. On the rare occasion I've overdone it in one area of the 
image, 
> I just layer in that part from the original and work on it again, 
so 
> the use of dodge and burn has not had a terrible finality for me.
> 
> Also, having started as a painter years ago, I love the feel of 
using 
> my Wacom pen and tablet with dodge and burn - I feel like I'm
> painting again! (I could never use the mouse - no fun at all).
> 
> However, for future new photos, I'm going to use Curves layers with 
> the History brush much more. Having said that, however, after 
> experimenting with all the different methods discussed over the 
last 
> couple of days, I still found that the grain was minimised the most 
> when doing it my eccentric way, avoiding cranking up contrast 
through 
> Levels/Curves altogether. However, I do acknowledge that it's kind 
of 

> impractical - to say the least - to be painting the contrast into 
> every bloody blade of grass!
> 
> Nick
> 
> 
> .

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "scrber" 
<stephen.bate@m...> wrote:
> I too have been following this with interest and it HAS made me 
> rethink what I've been doing, I often use dodge / burn on masked 
> selection areas, but only ever in highlight / shadow modes, never 
> tried the midtone method, it DOES seem to reduce posterisation and 
> grain.  
> 
> One point, however wonderful dodge/burn and curves may be, how do 
you 
> set your black / white points???  I dont get this, my scans / 
digital 
> images nearly always have unclipped headroom at one or both ends and 
> I thought I had to do this via level setting.  Does on do this on a 
> global basis to the image first and THEN play with the other tools?
> 
> Thanks for clearing up....
> 
> Steve
> 

Hi Steve

Re setting your black/white points, a few things - 

firstly, don't you just sometimes ignore whether you have unclipped 
headroom and just go with the image as it is, just because it looks 
great as it is? I don't think one always has to maximise the contrast 
in that way - many images look great with dusty, lower contrast. 

Secondly, I like to run my eyedropper tool across the highlights and 
shadow areas, and if I ever see I've hit a constant 100 in an area of 
the shadows, I know I've overdone it and killed shadow detail. 

Thirdly, you can constantly check your histograms to see where you're 
at, but without actually applying the dreaded levels to get more 
contrast.

Nick

.....

Hi Nick,
 
I'm glad you're having a good time around here, this place is really a gold
mine...
Two hours of work from scan to final image ain't bad (especially if spotting
is included), but what I'd like to know is how you manage dodge/burn
*evenly* large areas like skies. Maybe using a pen and tablet rather than a
mouse helps? BTW, what are your brush size and exposure settings with the
tool?
 
Thanks in advance,
Alessandro

-----Original Message-----
From: nick90290 [mailto:NickBrandt@...]
Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2003 17:34
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] levels and grain


Hi Steve, Allesandro

Reading all these postings over the last few days on methods of 
grading that do or don't avoid grain has been fascinating and quite a 
learning experience for me. I wish I'd known about this forum a long 
time ago - I could have saved myself a lot of aggravation. Education 
is enlightenment :).

Eccentric in the extreme as it is to use dodge and burn right the way 
through to create the majority of my contrast to minimise grain, I've 
done it recently when I was starting over on the images I've already 
graded - images that were overly grainy through my dumb over-use of 
levels layers. So I knew exactly how I wanted them to look going in. 

It's meant - using largely dodge and burn, and minimal use of Curves 
on selected parts of the image - that I've regraded an image from 
original scan to completion in less than two hours, often just an 
hour. On the rare occasion I've overdone it in one area of the image, 
I just layer in that part from the original and work on it again, so 
the use of dodge and burn has not had a terrible finality for me.

Also, having started as a painter years ago, I love the feel of using 
my Wacom pen and tablet with dodge and burn - I feel like I'm
painting again! (I could never use the mouse - no fun at all).

However, for future new photos, I'm going to use Curves layers with 
the History brush much more. Having said that, however, after 
experimenting with all the different methods discussed over the last 
couple of days, I still found that the grain was minimised the most 
when doing it my eccentric way, avoiding cranking up contrast through 
Levels/Curves altogether. However, I do acknowledge that it's kind of 
impractical - to say the least - to be painting the contrast into 
every bloody blade of grass!

Nick


.



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Nope -- works fine under Windows in Grayscale and RGB modes (either 8 or 16 
bits) . It doesn't work in Indexed or Lab modes.

At 09:13 AM 6/10/2003 +0200, you wrote:

>Victor writes:
>
> > Second is that, when you hold down <alt>/<option>
> > while dragging the black and white points up and
> > down, Photoshop shows you the actual parts of the
> > image that will be clipped. Try it if you don't
> > already know about it. You'll be amazed!
>
>This option apparently doesn't work under Windows except in 256-color mode.
>
>
>Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and 
>other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
>If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to 
>unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same 
>page.
>
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>them short.
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--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Alessandro Pardi 
<alessandro.pardi@i...> wrote:
> Hi Nick,
>  
> I'm glad you're having a good time around here, this place is
really 
a gold
> mine...
> Two hours of work from scan to final image ain't bad (especially if 
spotting is included), but what I'd like to know is how you manage 
dodge/burn *evenly* large areas like skies. Maybe using a pen and 
tablet rather than a mouse helps? 


Ah, now there's a question. When I started photoshop I was using
dodge and burn at 5-8% at full size brush. Sometimes it worked just 
fine, other times, of course, unsurprisingly, I would get some pretty
crappy results. I've gotten much better at it, even in the last month, 
but now I have this other no doubt eccentric technique I sometimes use
for darkening the skies - which is lassoing areas with the maximum 
pixel size (250) feathering, following cloud lines, etc, and darkening 
the sections of sky down incremental stage by incremental stage.

The most useful thing I've learned recently, however, is so bloody 
obvious, I wish I'd figured this out earlier -

you know when you have a bit of sky that looks fine and smooth on the 
monitor, and then you do a print and only now do you see some really 
clunky tonal transitions? And you look at the monitor and the 
transition is so damned subtle you can barely see it there? 

Well, it certainly helps to wait until it's dark and switching all
the lights off so there's no ambient light spilling on the screen. But 
now, I apply a curves layer and darken the image massively just for 
purposes of being able to better see the clunky tonal transitions
that were almost impossible to see at the normal viewing. I then 
smooth out the clunky bits with some extremly gentle dodging and 
burning, and then, the transitions now smooth, I stick the dark curves 
layer in the trash, its job done. Duh, how bloody obvious was that. 
Took two years of working in photoshop to figure out that one. There's 
still a bunch of my photos I need to go back and do that to. Tra la 
la....

Nick

..

If you're using PS5 or earlier it won't work. It was a new feature with 
Photoshop 6 -- and a good one!

At 09:13 AM 6/10/2003 +0200, Anthony Atkielski wrote:

>Victor writes:
>
> > Second is that, when you hold down <alt>/<option>
> > while dragging the black and white points up and
> > down, Photoshop shows you the actual parts of the
> > image that will be clipped. Try it if you don't
> > already know about it. You'll be amazed!
>
>This option apparently doesn't work under Windows except in 256-color mode.
>
>
>Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and 
>other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
>If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to 
>unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same 
>page.
>
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>- Include the address of your website, if you have one.
>- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep 
>them short.
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>- Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various 
>resources on the homepage.
>
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Steve,

Levels is how you set the W and B points.  However, if you perform Levels directly on the 
pixel (Background) layers, these changes rewrite pixel values permanently.  You cannot 
undo them once you've saved, and if you clip highlights or shadows, they are gone from 
the file forever.  Better to add a Levels Adjustment layer right over the top of the 
Background layer.  That way you can go back and adjust it whenever you choose.  It's 
very simple and completely safe from an information preservation point of view.

Again, if you're not clear on this see the pdf I posted, as mentioned earlier.

Cheers,
Phil
http://cirrus-digital.com
http://philbard.com

> 
> One point, however wonderful dodge/burn and curves may be, how do you 
> set your black / white points???  I dont get this, my scans / digital 
> images nearly always have unclipped headroom at one or both ends and 
> I thought I had to do this via level setting.  Does on do this on a 
> global basis to the image first and THEN play with the other tools?
> 
> Thanks for clearing up....
> 
> Steve

I can't find this article on the site - could you steer me to it? 
Thanks!

Barbara
On Tuesday, June 10, 2003, at 07:26  AM, Phil Bard wrote:

> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clayton Jones" 
> <cj@c...>
> wrote:
>> Hello Phil,
>
>>
>> Excellent article!  I know it's a lot of work, but I'm sure many
>> people will benefit from it.  I learned a lot from it, thanks very
>> much for making the time and effort.
>>
>
Barbara White Architectural Photography
http://www.barbarawhitephoto.com

NIck,

Another thing to keep in mind is that you want to look over your files at "Actual Pixels", 
or 100% magnification.  This is the only "true" display of the image.  All other 
magnifications are proxy views, and don't represent a completely accurate view of the 
image.  This may not solve problems but can certainly alert you to them before you 
print....

Phil
http://cirrus-digital.com
http://philbard.com

> you know when you have a bit of sky that looks fine and smooth on the 
> monitor, and then you do a print and only now do you see some really 
> clunky tonal transitions? And you look at the monitor and the 
> transition is so damned subtle you can barely see it there? 
>

Ah, thanks Nick. I eventually forced you to confess your meanest tricks ;-)
In the meantime, I experimented with an image I had, ehm, accidentally
brought here to office. You can see the results here:
 
What I had come up with using curves and levels:
http://www.photo.net/photodb/photo?photo_id=1547270
<http://www.photo.net/photodb/photo?photo_id=1547270> 
 
What I got in half an hour of dodging and burning:
http://www.photo.net/photodb/photo?photo_id=1547276
<http://www.photo.net/photodb/photo?photo_id=1547276> 
 
Film is FP4+ in 35mm, grain is definitely less evident but the main result
for me is that, although I couldn't duplicate what I originally got (not
that I tried that hard to), with this new method the result is *different*,
and that's even more important to me than the appearance (or lack thereof)
of grain.
 
Great thread.
 
Alessandro

 -----Original Message-----
From: nick90290 [mailto:NickBrandt@...]
Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2003 19:00
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] levels and grain



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Alessandro Pardi 
<alessandro.pardi@i...> wrote:
> Hi Nick,
>  
> I'm glad you're having a good time around here, this place is
really 
a gold
> mine...
> Two hours of work from scan to final image ain't bad (especially if 
spotting is included), but what I'd like to know is how you manage 
dodge/burn *evenly* large areas like skies. Maybe using a pen and 
tablet rather than a mouse helps? 


Ah, now there's a question. When I started photoshop I was using
dodge and burn at 5-8% at full size brush. Sometimes it worked just 
fine, other times, of course, unsurprisingly, I would get some pretty
crappy results. I've gotten much better at it, even in the last month, 
but now I have this other no doubt eccentric technique I sometimes use
for darkening the skies - which is lassoing areas with the maximum 
pixel size (250) feathering, following cloud lines, etc, and darkening 
the sections of sky down incremental stage by incremental stage.

The most useful thing I've learned recently, however, is so bloody 
obvious, I wish I'd figured this out earlier -

you know when you have a bit of sky that looks fine and smooth on the 
monitor, and then you do a print and only now do you see some really 
clunky tonal transitions? And you look at the monitor and the 
transition is so damned subtle you can barely see it there? 

Well, it certainly helps to wait until it's dark and switching all
the lights off so there's no ambient light spilling on the screen. But 
now, I apply a curves layer and darken the image massively just for 
purposes of being able to better see the clunky tonal transitions
that were almost impossible to see at the normal viewing. I then 
smooth out the clunky bits with some extremly gentle dodging and 
burning, and then, the transitions now smooth, I stick the dark curves 
layer in the trash, its job done. Duh, how bloody obvious was that. 
Took two years of working in photoshop to figure out that one. There's 
still a bunch of my photos I need to go back and do that to. Tra la 
la....

Nick

..



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Barbara White 
<barbara@b...> wrote:
> I can't find this article on the site - could you steer me to it? 
> Thanks!
> 
> Barbara


Barbara,

Follow the Workshops link from the home page.  It's not in the pulldown menus (yet), 
its a text link to the left of the image of the trees.  Sorry it's not more obvious.

Here's a direct link if you want:

http://cirrus-digital.com/Workshops.html

Cheers,
Phil
http://cirrus-digital.com
http://philbard.com

In a message dated 6/10/03 10:27:30 AM, phil@... writes:

<< NIck,


Another thing to keep in mind is that you want to look over your files at 
"Actual Pixels", 

or 100% magnification.  This is the only "true" display of the image.  All 
other 

magnifications are proxy views, and don't represent a completely accurate 
view of the 

image.  This may not solve problems but can certainly alert you to them 
before you 

print....

 >>

Thanks, Phil, yes this IS one of those things I was aware of.

Nick

Does it work on a MacIntosh with PS6 ?  If so, how ?
(I'm talking about getting Levels to highlight the areas that are
clipped).

Thanks, John

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, 
"johngeyles" <jge@c...> wrote:
> Does it work on a MacIntosh with PS6 ?  If so, how ?
> (I'm talking about getting Levels to highlight the areas that are
> clipped).
> 
> Thanks, John

Sure, works fine.  Just hold down the <option> key as
you drag the <black> or <white> triangle in Levels.

Roy

I'm reordering a custom cover that I had made for my 7000 and was wondering
if anyone is interested in getting in on the order.

They're made of a medium gray, light cotton washable canvas duck. They cover
a 7000/7600 completely and conform perfectly to the printer with either the
110 or 220ML carts installed. I had about three redos until I got the right
fit.

They're $65 delivered.

Let me know ASAP. I should have them in about ten days or so.

Rick Murai

Alessandro writes:

> ... what I'd like to know is how you manage dodge/burn
> *evenly* large areas like skies.

Take a snapshot of the image, then use Curves to get the sky the way you
want it and take another snapshot.  Return to the first snapshot, set the
history brush to the second snapshot, and brush in the parts of the sky you
want to correct.

The same principle can be applied to any type of correction.  It's fully
reversible and can be infinitely done or undone without degradation.  And it
works in 16-bit mode.  I do it all the time.

> Maybe using a pen and tablet rather than a
> mouse helps?

You're still using a mouse??  You MUST get a pen and tablet!!  Once you have
the pen and tablet, you'll understand why.  Apart from the precision,
comfort, and ease of use, you get ... variable opacity based on how hard you
press.

> > Maybe using a pen and tablet rather than a
> > mouse helps?
> You're still using a mouse??  You MUST get a pen and tablet!! 
>  Once you have the pen and tablet, you'll understand why.  
> Apart from the precision, comfort, and ease of use, you get 
> ... variable opacity based on how hard you press.

Just want to add my support for using a tablet. They're one of those
things you just can't live without once you learn how to use them. In
comparison using a mouse feels like painting with a brick.

Get a good one, a Wacom Intous II 6x8 sized tablet should be ideal. They
also last really long, I've only upgraded to a newer model once during
the seven years I've used my wacoms, and the old one still works fine.

--
Daniel Staver
http://daniel.staver.no

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Victor 
Landweber <victor@l...> wrote:
> If you're using PS5 or earlier it won't work. It was a new feature 
with 
> Photoshop 6 -- and a good one!
> 
That's a new feature in PS 6 only for Windows. However in Mac 
versions of Photoshop _before_ PS 6, this feature was/is made 
available by selecting the "video LUT animation" option in  
display Preferences (not necessary to do in PS 6).
Phil


> At 09:13 AM 6/10/2003 +0200, Anthony Atkielski wrote:
> >Victor writes:
> >
> > > Second is that, when you hold down <alt>/<option>
> > > while dragging the black and white points up and
> > > down, Photoshop shows you the actual parts of the
> > > image that will be clipped. Try it if you don't
> > > already know about it. You'll be amazed!
> >
> >This option apparently doesn't work under Windows except in 
256-color mode.
> >
> >
> >Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, 
Bookmarks, Polls and 
> >other resources as they are often being updated. The page is 
at:
> >
> >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >
> >If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you 
wish to 
> >unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by 
visiting this same 
> >page.
> >
> >Please follow these basic guidelines:
> >- Include your full name with your message.
> >- Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> >- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier 
messages to keep 
> >them short.
> >- As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the 
subject header.
> >- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks 
or flames
> >- Complete your Yahoo profile.
> >- Before posting a question, search the message archives 
and the various 
> >resources on the homepage.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to 
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Anthony,
 
my question was in the context of trying to use the dodge/burn tool rather
than curves or levels, sorry if that wasn't clear. The problem being that I
found almost impossible to apply the same amount of dodging/burning on a
large area, with the result that single strokes are visible if the area is
even (e.g. a cloudless sky).
As for the pen and tablet, now I feel as if I was living in stone age :-)
Ok, both you and Daniel convinced me on this, I'll upgrade!
 
Alessandro

-----Original Message-----
From: Anthony Atkielski [mailto:anthony@...]
Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2003 23:43
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] levels and grain


Alessandro writes:

> ... what I'd like to know is how you manage dodge/burn
> *evenly* large areas like skies.

Take a snapshot of the image, then use Curves to get the sky the way you
want it and take another snapshot.  Return to the first snapshot, set the
history brush to the second snapshot, and brush in the parts of the sky you
want to correct.

The same principle can be applied to any type of correction.  It's fully
reversible and can be infinitely done or undone without degradation.  And it
works in 16-bit mode.  I do it all the time.

> Maybe using a pen and tablet rather than a
> mouse helps?

You're still using a mouse??  You MUST get a pen and tablet!!  Once you have
the pen and tablet, you'll understand why.  Apart from the precision,
comfort, and ease of use, you get ... variable opacity based on how hard you
press.



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Well, Watcom tablets don't come very cheap, but it looks like they're worth
the money. Given that my desktop is quite crowded already, do you really
think A4 size is necessary? What about A5 or even A6? After all I don't need
it for drawing, so I guess I could compromise a bit.
Also, the smaller it is the more unlikely my wife is to ask "How much did
you pay for that?" ;-)
 
Alessandro

 -----Original Message-----
From: Daniel Staver [mailto:daniel@...]
Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2003 0:16
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Tablets was: [Digital BW] levels and grain



> > Maybe using a pen and tablet rather than a
> > mouse helps?
> You're still using a mouse??  You MUST get a pen and tablet!! 
>  Once you have the pen and tablet, you'll understand why.  
> Apart from the precision, comfort, and ease of use, you get 
> ... variable opacity based on how hard you press.

Just want to add my support for using a tablet. They're one of those
things you just can't live without once you learn how to use them. In
comparison using a mouse feels like painting with a brick.

Get a good one, a Wacom Intous II 6x8 sized tablet should be ideal. They
also last really long, I've only upgraded to a newer model once during
the seven years I've used my wacoms, and the old one still works fine.

--
Daniel Staver
http://daniel.staver.no <http://daniel.staver.no>  




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Alessandro Pardi wrote:
> Well, Watcom tablets don't come very cheap, but it looks like
> they're worth the money. Given that my desktop is quite crowded
> already, do you really think A4 size is necessary? What about A5 or
> even A6? After all I don't need it for drawing, so I guess I could
> compromise a bit. Also, the smaller it is the more unlikely my wife
> is to ask "How much did you pay for that?" ;-)

Alessandro, I have one of the cheap Wacom tablets -- the Graphire --
which has a 4x5 inch working surface (that's a little smaller than A6).
I think it's terrific! I find the pen is excellent for Photoshop image
editing, and I use the cordless mouse (included with the tablet) the
rest of the time. I wouldn't be without it.

Peter Marquis-Kyle
www.marquis-kyle.com.au

I think 6x8 equals A5 size, although I'm not used to thinking in
inches... I have an Intous A5 myself and that's just the right size.

My previous Wacom was A4 size, and that's just too big. You feel like
you're always stretching your arm all over the place. I found myself
mapping the tablet area to an A5 portion of the tablet anyway, so the
extra space was wasted.

I've tried the A6 Graphire that Peter recommends, and while I didn't
feel it offered enough precision for professional work, it was still
nice to use. Maybe it's just because I've been using the bigger tablets
for so many years... It's certainly much cheaper than the Intous, and in
any case way better than a mouse, so you could always start with the
Graphire and buy an Intous later on if you really feel a need for it.

--
Daniel Staver
http://daniel.staver.no 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Alessandro Pardi [mailto:alessandro.pardi@...] 
> Sent: 11. juni 2003 11:43
> To: 'DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com'
> Subject: RE: Tablets was: [Digital BW] levels and grain
> 
> 
> Well, Watcom tablets don't come very cheap, but it looks like 
> they're worth the money. Given that my desktop is quite 
> crowded already, do you really think A4 size is necessary? 
> What about A5 or even A6? After all I don't need it for 
> drawing, so I guess I could compromise a bit. Also, the 
> smaller it is the more unlikely my wife is to ask "How much 
> did you pay for that?" ;-)
>  
> Alessandro
>  
>  -----Original Message-----
> From: Daniel Staver [mailto:daniel@...]
> Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2003 0:16
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Tablets was: [Digital BW] levels and grain
> 
> 
> 
> > > Maybe using a pen and tablet rather than a
> > > mouse helps?
> > You're still using a mouse??  You MUST get a pen and tablet!!
> >  Once you have the pen and tablet, you'll understand why.  
> > Apart from the precision, comfort, and ease of use, you get 
> > ... variable opacity based on how hard you press.
> 
> Just want to add my support for using a tablet. They're one 
> of those things you just can't live without once you learn 
> how to use them. In comparison using a mouse feels like 
> painting with a brick.
> 
> Get a good one, a Wacom Intous II 6x8 sized tablet should be 
> ideal. They also last really long, I've only upgraded to a 
> newer model once during the seven years I've used my wacoms, 
> and the old one still works fine.
> 
> --
> Daniel Staver
> http://daniel.staver.no <http://daniel.staver.no>  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor	
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I've been using the original  Wacom GRAPHIRE 4x5 tablet for 3 years for
photo editing, and for the $79.99 I paid on-line at the time,
retrospectively it's a "no-brainer"..I think the "II" verson is going for
about the same $'s today..I personally see no need for up-grading, as it
fills my needs quite well..In fact, I don't know how I ever got along
without it!

Eddie Wiseman
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Daniel Staver" <daniel@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2003 6:44 AM
Subject: RE: Tablets was: [Digital BW] levels and grain


> I think 6x8 equals A5 size, although I'm not used to thinking in
> inches... I have an Intous A5 myself and that's just the right size.
>
> My previous Wacom was A4 size, and that's just too big. You feel like
> you're always stretching your arm all over the place. I found myself
> mapping the tablet area to an A5 portion of the tablet anyway, so the
> extra space was wasted.
>
> I've tried the A6 Graphire that Peter recommends, and while I didn't
> feel it offered enough precision for professional work, it was still
> nice to use. Maybe it's just because I've been using the bigger tablets
> for so many years... It's certainly much cheaper than the Intous, and in
> any case way better than a mouse, so you could always start with the
> Graphire and buy an Intous later on if you really feel a need for it.
>
> --
> Daniel Staver
> http://daniel.staver.no
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Alessandro Pardi [mailto:alessandro.pardi@...]
> > Sent: 11. juni 2003 11:43
> > To: 'DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com'
> > Subject: RE: Tablets was: [Digital BW] levels and grain
> >
> >
> > Well, Watcom tablets don't come very cheap, but it looks like
> > they're worth the money. Given that my desktop is quite
> > crowded already, do you really think A4 size is necessary?
> > What about A5 or even A6? After all I don't need it for
> > drawing, so I guess I could compromise a bit. Also, the
> > smaller it is the more unlikely my wife is to ask "How much
> > did you pay for that?" ;-)
> >
> > Alessandro
> >
> >  -----Original Message-----
> > From: Daniel Staver [mailto:daniel@...]
> > Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2003 0:16
> > To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: Tablets was: [Digital BW] levels and grain
> >
> >
> >
> > > > Maybe using a pen and tablet rather than a
> > > > mouse helps?
> > > You're still using a mouse??  You MUST get a pen and tablet!!
> > >  Once you have the pen and tablet, you'll understand why.
> > > Apart from the precision, comfort, and ease of use, you get
> > > ... variable opacity based on how hard you press.
> >
> > Just want to add my support for using a tablet. They're one
> > of those things you just can't live without once you learn
> > how to use them. In comparison using a mouse feels like
> > painting with a brick.
> >
> > Get a good one, a Wacom Intous II 6x8 sized tablet should be
> > ideal. They also last really long, I've only upgraded to a
> > newer model once during the seven years I've used my wacoms,
> > and the old one still works fine.
> >
> > --
> > Daniel Staver
> > http://daniel.staver.no <http://daniel.staver.no>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> >
> > <http://rd.yahoo.com/M=251812.3170658.4537139.1261774/D=egroup
> > web/S=17050191
> > 82:HM/A=1564416/R=0/SIG=11ti81skc/*http://www.netflix.com/Defa
> > ult?mqso=60164
> > 797&partid=3170658>
> >
> > <http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=251812.3170658.4537139.12617
> > 74/D=egroupmai
> > l/S=:HM/A=1564416/rand=876767957>
> >
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files,
> > Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being
> > updated. The page is at:
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint>
> >
> > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or
> > you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership
> > preferences by visiting this same page.
> >
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > - Include your full name with your message.
> > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier
> > messages to keep them short.
> > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the
> > subject header.
> > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames
> > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and
> > the various resources on the homepage.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Service.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text
> > portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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> > Online Answer To Life's Important Questions.
> > http://us.click.yahoo.com/Lj3uPC/Me7FAA/ySSFAA> /ucIolB/TM
> >
> >
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>
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> same page.
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> keep them short.
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> header.
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> resources on the homepage.
>
>
>
>
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>
>
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
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>
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them short.
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> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames
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> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.

>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Alessandro writes:

> Given that my desktop is quite crowded already, do
> you really think A4 size is necessary? What about A5
> or even A6?

A4 is on the large size; A6 is a bit small.  I use A5.  The tablets are
extremely precise and sensitive, so even a small tablet works fine; it is
limited only by how steady you can hold your hand (the tablet resolves 100
points per millimetre, which is a lot better than most human beings can
manage).

Tablets can be used concurrently with a mouse.  I keep the mouse on the left
of my keyboard, and the tablet on the right (because I'm right-handed, and
so I keep the input device with the highest precision on my right).  I use
both interchangeably, with the tablet serviing mainly for graphic stuff, and
the mouse for just pointing and clicking.

You can left- and right-click with the tablet, of course, using buttons on
the pen (which is wireless, by the way--one of the advantages of Wacom
tablets).  The pen also has an "eraser" at the other end, which Photoshop
recognizes.  The pen even sends tilt information to the PC (so that the PC
can tell the angle at which you're holding the pen), although Photoshop
doesn't use this.  Some PS plug-ins recognize tilt information.  Photoshop
and Illustrator both recognize pressure variations with the pen.  Also, the
pen will work even through sheets of paper.

Anthony, Daniel, Peter, Edward
 
thanks for your valuable advice. I think I'll take a look at the Watcom
Graphire, given its low price and the good reviews here, and start with
that.
 
Thanks again,
Alessandro


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Alessandro-

For photo retouching it's really nice to have as large a tablet as possible-
what you want is a 1-1 relationship between movement of the stylus, and
movement of the cursor on-screen.  I use a 9x12 tablet, and would now find
it very difficult to go smaller.

Bill Morse
PhotoProspect
Cambridge, MA USA


on 6/11/03 5:42 AM, Alessandro Pardi wrote:

> Well, Watcom tablets don't come very cheap, but it looks like they're worth
> the money. Given that my desktop is quite crowded already, do you really
> think A4 size is necessary? What about A5 or even A6? After all I don't need
> it for drawing, so I guess I could compromise a bit.
> Also, the smaller it is the more unlikely my wife is to ask "How much did
> you pay for that?" ;-)
>

I can only second my predecessors.  I got the Wacom Graphire 4x5 and I 
am happy with it.  The pen
is amazing.  It's precise. Works intuitively.  The pressure settings are 
recognized by PS and help a lot.
The only thing I am not too happy about is the mouse.  It's cordless 
(nice),  but my standard Microsoft
optical mouse feels and works a bit better.  So I use it on the pen 
tablet instead of the Wacom mouse.
But again - pen is the solution to many problems.  And I do not think 
that the bigger size than 4x5 is necessary
for the editing.  I like keep my wrist steady and the bigger tablet 
requires movement of the whole hand.
If you draw with it YES, but for editing, when you can zoom in wherever 
you need - 4x5 works for me.
JMK

_________________________________________________
Jack M Kucy
JMK Gallery (www.jmk-gallery.com)
917-991-2096     jmk@...
Member of ASMP (www.asmp.org)
_________________________________________________
...a riveder le stelle


Edward Wiseman wrote:

> I've been using the original  Wacom GRAPHIRE 4x5 tablet for 3 years for
> photo editing, and for the $79.99 I paid on-line at the time,
> retrospectively it's a "no-brainer"..I think the "II" verson is going for
> about the same $'s today..I personally see no need for up-grading, as it
> fills my needs quite well..In fact, I don't know how I ever got along
> without it!
>
> Eddie Wiseman
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Daniel Staver" <daniel@...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2003 6:44 AM
> Subject: RE: Tablets was: [Digital BW] levels and grain
>
>
> > I think 6x8 equals A5 size, although I'm not used to thinking in
> > inches... I have an Intous A5 myself and that's just the right size.
> >
> > My previous Wacom was A4 size, and that's just too big. You feel like
> > you're always stretching your arm all over the place. I found myself
> > mapping the tablet area to an A5 portion of the tablet anyway, so the
> > extra space was wasted.
> >
> > I've tried the A6 Graphire that Peter recommends, and while I didn't
> > feel it offered enough precision for professional work, it was still
> > nice to use. Maybe it's just because I've been using the bigger tablets
> > for so many years... It's certainly much cheaper than the Intous, and in
> > any case way better than a mouse, so you could always start with the
> > Graphire and buy an Intous later on if you really feel a need for it.
> >
> > --





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I am convinced.  The best price I can find for the Graphire 2 (steel 
blue -- bronze is more) is $89.00 at cdw.  Has anyone seen a better 
price or can anyone suggest another supplier to check out.

Thanks,

Steve


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Jack M Kucy 
<jmk@j...> wrote:
> I can only second my predecessors.  I got the Wacom Graphire 4x5 
and I 
> am happy with it.  The pen
> is amazing.  It's precise. Works intuitively.  The pressure 
settings are 
> recognized by PS and help a lot.
> The only thing I am not too happy about is the mouse.  It's 
cordless 
> (nice),  but my standard Microsoft
> optical mouse feels and works a bit better.  So I use it on the pen 
> tablet instead of the Wacom mouse.
> But again - pen is the solution to many problems.  And I do not 
think 
> that the bigger size than 4x5 is necessary
> for the editing.  I like keep my wrist steady and the bigger tablet 
> requires movement of the whole hand.
> If you draw with it YES, but for editing, when you can zoom in 
wherever 
> you need - 4x5 works for me.
> JMK
> 
> _________________________________________________
> Jack M Kucy
> JMK Gallery (www.jmk-gallery.com)
> 917-991-2096     jmk@j...
> Member of ASMP (www.asmp.org)
> _________________________________________________
> ...a riveder le stelle
> 
> 
> Edward Wiseman wrote:
> 
> > I've been using the original  Wacom GRAPHIRE 4x5 tablet for 3 
years for
> > photo editing, and for the $79.99 I paid on-line at the time,
> > retrospectively it's a "no-brainer"..I think the "II" verson is 
going for
> > about the same $'s today..I personally see no need for up-
grading, as it
> > fills my needs quite well..In fact, I don't know how I ever got 
along
> > without it!
> >
> > Eddie Wiseman
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Daniel Staver" <daniel@p...>
> > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2003 6:44 AM
> > Subject: RE: Tablets was: [Digital BW] levels and grain
> >
> >
> > > I think 6x8 equals A5 size, although I'm not used to thinking in
> > > inches... I have an Intous A5 myself and that's just the right 
size.
> > >
> > > My previous Wacom was A4 size, and that's just too big. You 
feel like
> > > you're always stretching your arm all over the place. I found 
myself
> > > mapping the tablet area to an A5 portion of the tablet anyway, 
so the
> > > extra space was wasted.
> > >
> > > I've tried the A6 Graphire that Peter recommends, and while I 
didn't
> > > feel it offered enough precision for professional work, it was 
still
> > > nice to use. Maybe it's just because I've been using the bigger 
tablets
> > > for so many years... It's certainly much cheaper than the 
Intous, and in
> > > any case way better than a mouse, so you could always start 
with the
> > > Graphire and buy an Intous later on if you really feel a need 
for it.

> > >
> > > --
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Steve..
Try  http://www.pcnation.com

Eddie Wiseman
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Stephen Kobrin" <skobrin@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2003 12:10 PM
Subject: Re: Tablets was: [Digital BW] levels and grain


> I am convinced.  The best price I can find for the Graphire 2 (steel
> blue -- bronze is more) is $89.00 at cdw.  Has anyone seen a better
> price or can anyone suggest another supplier to check out.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Steve
>
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Jack M Kucy
> <jmk@j...> wrote:
> > I can only second my predecessors.  I got the Wacom Graphire 4x5
> and I
> > am happy with it.  The pen
> > is amazing.  It's precise. Works intuitively.  The pressure
> settings are
> > recognized by PS and help a lot.
> > The only thing I am not too happy about is the mouse.  It's
> cordless
> > (nice),  but my standard Microsoft
> > optical mouse feels and works a bit better.  So I use it on the pen
> > tablet instead of the Wacom mouse.
> > But again - pen is the solution to many problems.  And I do not
> think
> > that the bigger size than 4x5 is necessary
> > for the editing.  I like keep my wrist steady and the bigger tablet
> > requires movement of the whole hand.
> > If you draw with it YES, but for editing, when you can zoom in
> wherever
> > you need - 4x5 works for me.
> > JMK
> >
> > _________________________________________________
> > Jack M Kucy
> > JMK Gallery (www.jmk-gallery.com)
> > 917-991-2096     jmk@j...
> > Member of ASMP (www.asmp.org)
> > _________________________________________________
> > ...a riveder le stelle
> >
> >
> > Edward Wiseman wrote:
> >
> > > I've been using the original  Wacom GRAPHIRE 4x5 tablet for 3
> years for
> > > photo editing, and for the $79.99 I paid on-line at the time,
> > > retrospectively it's a "no-brainer"..I think the "II" verson is
> going for
> > > about the same $'s today..I personally see no need for up-
> grading, as it
> > > fills my needs quite well..In fact, I don't know how I ever got
> along
> > > without it!
> > >
> > > Eddie Wiseman
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Daniel Staver" <daniel@p...>
> > > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > > Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2003 6:44 AM
> > > Subject: RE: Tablets was: [Digital BW] levels and grain
> > >
> > >
> > > > I think 6x8 equals A5 size, although I'm not used to thinking in
> > > > inches... I have an Intous A5 myself and that's just the right
> size.
> > > >
> > > > My previous Wacom was A4 size, and that's just too big. You
> feel like
> > > > you're always stretching your arm all over the place. I found
> myself
> > > > mapping the tablet area to an A5 portion of the tablet anyway,
> so the
> > > > extra space was wasted.
> > > >
> > > > I've tried the A6 Graphire that Peter recommends, and while I
> didn't
> > > > feel it offered enough precision for professional work, it was
> still
> > > > nice to use. Maybe it's just because I've been using the bigger
> tablets
> > > > for so many years... It's certainly much cheaper than the
> Intous, and in
> > > > any case way better than a mouse, so you could always start
> with the
> > > > Graphire and buy an Intous later on if you really feel a need
> for it.
> > > >
> > > > --
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.

>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Amazon has it for $83 with free shipping.

Phil Morse
www.DigitaLoft.com
----- Original Message ----- 

From: "Stephen Kobrin" <skobrin@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2003 12:10 PM
Subject: Re: Tablets was: [Digital BW] levels and grain


> I am convinced.  The best price I can find for the Graphire 2 (steel 
> blue -- bronze is more) is $89.00 at cdw.  Has anyone seen a better 
> price or can anyone suggest another supplier to check out.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Steve

Thanks Phil

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Phil Morse" 
<pmorse@c...> wrote:
> Amazon has it for $83 with free shipping.
> 
> Phil Morse
> www.DigitaLoft.com
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Stephen Kobrin" <skobrin@h...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2003 12:10 PM
> Subject: Re: Tablets was: [Digital BW] levels and grain
> 
> 
> > I am convinced.  The best price I can find for the Graphire 2 
(steel 
> > blue -- bronze is more) is $89.00 at cdw.  Has anyone seen a 
better 

> > price or can anyone suggest another supplier to check out.
> > 
> > Thanks,
> > 
> > Steve

If you do a search on Ebay..someone has them refurbished for $65 and $79..also, the Wacom website has them for $80.00-refurbished..

Stephen Kobrin <skobrin@...> wrote:I am convinced.  The best price I can find for the Graphire 2 (steel 
blue -- bronze is more) is $89.00 at cdw.  Has anyone seen a better 
price or can anyone suggest another supplier to check out.

Thanks,

Steve


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Jack M Kucy 
<jmk@j...> wrote:
> I can only second my predecessors.  I got the Wacom Graphire 4x5 
and I 
> am happy with it.  The pen
> is amazing.  It's precise. Works intuitively.  The pressure 
settings are 
> recognized by PS and help a lot.
> The only thing I am not too happy about is the mouse.  It's 
cordless 
> (nice),  but my standard Microsoft
> optical mouse feels and works a bit better.  So I use it on the pen 
> tablet instead of the Wacom mouse.
> But again - pen is the solution to many problems.  And I do not 
think 
> that the bigger size than 4x5 is necessary
> for the editing.  I like keep my wrist steady and the bigger tablet 
> requires movement of the whole hand.
> If you draw with it YES, but for editing, when you can zoom in 
wherever 
> you need - 4x5 works for me.
> JMK
> 
> _________________________________________________
> Jack M Kucy
> JMK Gallery (www.jmk-gallery.com)
> 917-991-2096     jmk@j...
> Member of ASMP (www.asmp.org)
> _________________________________________________
> ...a riveder le stelle
> 
> 
> Edward Wiseman wrote:
> 
> > I've been using the original  Wacom GRAPHIRE 4x5 tablet for 3 
years for
> > photo editing, and for the $79.99 I paid on-line at the time,
> > retrospectively it's a "no-brainer"..I think the "II" verson is 
going for
> > about the same $'s today..I personally see no need for up-
grading, as it
> > fills my needs quite well..In fact, I don't know how I ever got 
along
> > without it!
> >
> > Eddie Wiseman
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Daniel Staver" <daniel@p...>
> > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2003 6:44 AM
> > Subject: RE: Tablets was: [Digital BW] levels and grain
> >
> >
> > > I think 6x8 equals A5 size, although I'm not used to thinking in
> > > inches... I have an Intous A5 myself and that's just the right 
size.
> > >
> > > My previous Wacom was A4 size, and that's just too big. You 
feel like
> > > you're always stretching your arm all over the place. I found 
myself
> > > mapping the tablet area to an A5 portion of the tablet anyway, 
so the
> > > extra space was wasted.
> > >
> > > I've tried the A6 Graphire that Peter recommends, and while I 
didn't
> > > feel it offered enough precision for professional work, it was 
still
> > > nice to use. Maybe it's just because I've been using the bigger 
tablets
> > > for so many years... It's certainly much cheaper than the 
Intous, and in
> > > any case way better than a mouse, so you could always start 
with the
> > > Graphire and buy an Intous later on if you really feel a need 
for it.
> > >
> > > --
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

At the risk of displaying my ignorance, can someone explain (or point me to 
an explanation) of the benefits of using a tablet over using a trackball 
(which is what I now use with Photoshop) when it comes to image work?  I've 
been to the Wacom site, but it seems to assume you know what a tablet does, 
and only talks about the differences between their various models.

People who use them seem to love them (judging by the posts here) and they 
aren't all that expensive for a small one, but I'd be buying one blind at 
the moment.  So any advice is appreciated.

If this is getting too far off topic, please contact me directly rather 
than through the list.  Thanks in advance.

Cheers,
Kip

Kip..
If you had the choice, for example of making a selection in Photoshop with a
"mouse" or now had thenew-found ability of making that same selection with a
"pen", (which you have almost innately used since you were about 2-3 years
old) which would you prefer??..I would DEFINITELY take the pen..IOW, it's
much more "intuitive" to use and thus faster and alot more accurate..all of
which makes it "easier" as well..

Eddie Wiseman

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Kip Babington" <cbabing3@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2003 1:24 PM
Subject: Re: Tablets was: [Digital BW] levels and grain


> At the risk of displaying my ignorance, can someone explain (or point me
to
> an explanation) of the benefits of using a tablet over using a trackball
> (which is what I now use with Photoshop) when it comes to image work?
I've
> been to the Wacom site, but it seems to assume you know what a tablet
does,
> and only talks about the differences between their various models.
>
> People who use them seem to love them (judging by the posts here) and they
> aren't all that expensive for a small one, but I'd be buying one blind at
> the moment.  So any advice is appreciated.
>
> If this is getting too far off topic, please contact me directly rather
> than through the list.  Thanks in advance.
>
> Cheers,
> Kip
>
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
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> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.

>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

The significant difference is that harder you press the pen to the tablet
wider the brush size becomes up to your chosen brush size.  But when
you press just a little you start with the very narrow brush.  This is a
very convenient feature.  Requires adjusting of your thinking,  since the
mouse works different.  You can program your button on the pen to
do exactly what the buttons on the mouse do, or something different.  
Another thing is a programmable keystroke (I do not use this yet).  
Track ball is an excellent tool,  you may like it better, but to me the
pen is much more natural and precise.
Hope it helps.
Jack

_________________________________________________
Jack M Kucy
JMK Gallery (www.jmk-gallery.com)
917-991-2096     jmk@...
Member of ASMP (www.asmp.org)
_________________________________________________
...a riveder le stelle



Edward Wiseman wrote:

> Kip..
> If you had the choice, for example of making a selection in Photoshop 
> with a
> "mouse" or now had thenew-found ability of making that same selection 
> with a
> "pen", (which you have almost innately used since you were about 2-3 years
> old) which would you prefer??..I would DEFINITELY take the pen..IOW, it's
> much more "intuitive" to use and thus faster and alot more 
> accurate..all of
> which makes it "easier" as well..
>
> Eddie Wiseman
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Kip Babington" <cbabing3@...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2003 1:24 PM
> Subject: Re: Tablets was: [Digital BW] levels and grain
>
>
> > At the risk of displaying my ignorance, can someone explain (or point me
> to
> > an explanation) of the benefits of using a tablet over using a trackball
> > (which is what I now use with Photoshop) when it comes to image work?
> I've
> > been to the Wacom site, but it seems to assume you know what a tablet
> does,
> > and only talks about the differences between their various models.
> >
> > People who use them seem to love them (judging by the posts here) 
> and they
> > aren't all that expensive for a small one, but I'd be buying one 
> blind at
> > the moment.  So any advice is appreciated.
> >
> > If this is getting too far off topic, please contact me directly rather
> > than through the list.  Thanks in advance.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Kip
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
> other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >
> > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
> page.
> >
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > - Include your full name with your message.
> > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages 
> to keep
> them short.
> > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject 
> header.
> > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames
> > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> resources on the homepage.
> >
> >
> >





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I agree, the pressure sensitivity together with the natural feeling of
holding a pen is the greatest advantage of having a tablet. It can also
know which angle you're holding the pen. I think Painter supports this
for many of its brushes.

I use my wacom for everything in windows, not just creative work. I feel
that basic operations such as moving windows and clicking buttons are
also done much faster when you're used to the pen.

--
Daniel Staver
http://daniel.staver.no 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jack M Kucy [mailto:jmk@...] 
> Sent: 11. juni 2003 21:41
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: Tablets was: [Digital BW] levels and grain
> 
> 
> The significant difference is that harder you press the pen 
> to the tablet wider the brush size becomes up to your chosen 
> brush size.  But when you press just a little you start with 
> the very narrow brush.  This is a very convenient feature.  
> Requires adjusting of your thinking,  since the mouse works 
> different.  You can program your button on the pen to do 
> exactly what the buttons on the mouse do, or something different.  
> Another thing is a programmable keystroke (I do not use this yet).  
> Track ball is an excellent tool,  you may like it better, but 
> to me the pen is much more natural and precise. Hope it helps. Jack
> 
> _________________________________________________
> Jack M Kucy
> JMK Gallery (www.jmk-gallery.com)
> 917-991-2096     jmk@...
> Member of ASMP (www.asmp.org) 
> _________________________________________________
> ...a riveder le stelle
> 
> 
> 
> Edward Wiseman wrote:
> 
> > Kip..
> > If you had the choice, for example of making a selection in 
> Photoshop
> > with a
> > "mouse" or now had thenew-found ability of making that same 
> selection 
> > with a
> > "pen", (which you have almost innately used since you were 
> about 2-3 years
> > old) which would you prefer??..I would DEFINITELY take the 
> pen..IOW, it's
> > much more "intuitive" to use and thus faster and alot more 
> > accurate..all of
> > which makes it "easier" as well..
> >
> > Eddie Wiseman
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Kip Babington" <cbabing3@...>
> > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2003 1:24 PM
> > Subject: Re: Tablets was: [Digital BW] levels and grain
> >
> >
> > > At the risk of displaying my ignorance, can someone explain (or 
> > > point me
> > to
> > > an explanation) of the benefits of using a tablet over using a 
> > > trackball (which is what I now use with Photoshop) when 
> it comes to 
> > > image work?
> > I've
> > > been to the Wacom site, but it seems to assume you know what a 
> > > tablet
> > does,
> > > and only talks about the differences between their various models.
> > >
> > > People who use them seem to love them (judging by the posts here)
> > and they
> > > aren't all that expensive for a small one, but I'd be buying one
> > blind at
> > > the moment.  So any advice is appreciated.
> > >
> > > If this is getting too far off topic, please contact me directly 
> > > rather than through the list.  Thanks in advance.
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > > Kip
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, 
> Bookmarks, Polls 
> > > and
> > other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> > >
> > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> > >
> > > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, 
> or you wish 
> > > to
> > unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by 
> visiting this 
> > same page.
> > >
> > > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > > - Include your full name with your message.
> > > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> > > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages
> > to keep
> > them short.
> > > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject
> > header.
> > > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or 
> > > flames
> > > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> > > - Before posting a question, search the message archives 
> and the various
> > resources on the homepage.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
> 
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Just about any price you pay for a graphics tablet will be amortized in a
few days, just in saved time and increased quality and precision in your
work.  Having a graphics tablet for work in photography is about as useful
as ... say, having electricity.

----- Original Message -----

From: "Stephen Kobrin" <skobrin@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2003 18:10
Subject: Re: Tablets was: [Digital BW] levels and grain


> I am convinced.  The best price I can find for the Graphire 2 (steel
> blue -- bronze is more) is $89.00 at cdw.  Has anyone seen a better
> price or can anyone suggest another supplier to check out.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Steve

Kip writes:

> At the risk of displaying my ignorance, can someone
> explain (or point me to an explanation) of the benefits
> of using a tablet over using a trackball (which is
> what I now use with Photoshop) when it comes to
> image work?

Try signing your name with a ball-point pen.  Then try signing it with a
trackball.  That will give you an idea of the difference between a graphics
tablet and a trackball.  I can easily sign my name on the screen with my
graphics tablet, and it looks exactly like it does on paper.

For graphics work, a mouse or trackball is very much like those machines you
used to see in arcades (and also in _Toy Story_), in which you had to
struggle with little wheels to manipulate a claw in order to grab a toy
prize and drop it into a bin.  A graphics tablet is like reaching inside the
machine with your hand and simply picking up the toy you want.

> I've been to the Wacom site, but it seems to assume
> you know what a tablet does, and only talks about
> the differences between their various models.

A graphics tablet is an input device that works like a mouse (most tablets
can in fact be used in conjunction with a standard mouse or trackball,
although not at exactly the same instant).  It's like a small smooth writing
pad on which you can sketch with a stylus that looks and feels just like an
ordinary writing pen (Wacom makes other types of stylus if you prefer a
different feel, e.g., one that feels like an airbrush and so on).  Wacom
tablets are wireless, so the pen is not connected to anything.  When you
hold it near the surface of the tablet, the tablet "sees" the pen and the
cursor on the screen of your PC snaps to a location on the screen exactly
matching the position of the pen on the tablet.  As you move the pen, the
cursor tracks it precisely (within 1/2540 inch).  The tablet is the same
shape as the screen, and each point on the tablet corresponds to one and
only one point on the screen.  Thus, you can sketch, scribble, write, paint,
etc., on the tablet with the pen, and these movements will be duplicated on
the screen.

Tablets are normally absolute; that is, unlike the mouse, placing the pen in
a given position on the tablet always places it in the same place on the
screen (a mouse just moves the cursor relatively, but a given point on the
mouse pad doesn't necessarily always put the cursor at a given point on the
screen).

The pen is sensitive to pressure.  You don't have to touch the tablet in
order to move the cursor; just holding it close (half an inch or so) will
do.  If you touch the tablet, this behaves as though you were pressing the
main button on your mouse and moving it; in other words, touching the tablet
and moving the pen is just like drag and drop with the mouse, only
dramatically more precise.  The pen also has a button you can press that is
the equivalent of a double mouse click; another button is the equivalent of
a right-click (you can configure this behavior differently if you wish).
The top of the pen has an "eraser" that is recognized by some applications
(including Photoshop) so that you can paint and erase just by turning over
the pen, as you would with a real pencil.

Pens are pressure sensitive; most graphics applications (including Photoshop
and Illustrator) are able to sense the pen pressure, which opens up an
entirely new world of graphics.  You can use the pen pressure to vary the
brush size or the opacity of a Photoshop tool as you use it, instead of
having to reset options for the tool.  You can control the sensitivity of
the pen, but it is very precise and it can be made to respond to a feather's
touch; it will tolerate extremely hard pressure as well.

Pens also are tilt sensitive: they communicate information on their position
(the angle they form with the tablet) to the PC, although I haven't seen any
applications that actually use this information, apart from a plug-in
provided with the tablet.  Applications that use it can accurately simulate
things like airbrushing (press harder, and the paint darkens--tilt the pen,
and the shape of the paintbrush changes).

Note that the pen and mouse can both be used on the PC.  If you try to use
both at the same instant, they "fight" (the pen tends to want to hold the
cursor at its absolute position, whereas the mouse tries to move it), but it
does no harm to the PC or the application you are using.  You can alternate
between them if you want.  The pen works just like the mouse for ordinary
applications.  I usually keep the mouse at my left hand, and the pen at my
right (because I am right-handed), and use them interchangeably for most
things; I use the pen exclusively when I am working in Photoshop, though.

> People who use them seem to love them (judging by the
> posts here) and they aren't all that expensive for a
> small one, but I'd be buying one blind at the moment.
> So any advice is appreciated.

You cannot fail to love a graphics tablet.  You'll never be willing to use a
mouse or trackball again once you have the tablet.  The difference is so
dramatic that I've never encountered anyone, anywhere who did not become
permanently addicted to a graphics tablet for graphics work after just
thirty seconds or so of using one.  Whatever you pay for the tablet, you'll
get your money's worth.  Wacom makes the best tablets.

> Better to add a Levels Adjustment layer right over the top of the 
> Background layer.  That way you can go back and adjust it whenever
you choose.  It's 
> very simple and completely safe from an information preservation
point of view.

I don't think it IS safe from information-preservation point of
view - at least, assuming you started out with a 1bit/channel scan.
Because you must convert to 8bit before you can use Adjustment
layers, but if you're changing levels or curves in 8bit mode, you
can definitely lose info if you are compresing/expanding tonal
ranges much.

Maybe I am issing something though - I've a relative newbie.

John

Does anyone have Tom O'Connell's address for the print exchange? I 
either didn't get it or lost it and he's not replying to my email. 
Thanks!

Barbara White

Hi Barbara,

This is Tom's address:

165 Cloudview Trl
Sausalito, CA 94965-2009

How many people did the Jerry Olson exchange end up with? Last I heard it
was 17.

Roger

Roger L Sopher
rlsopher@...
http:\\deCorrales.com

  -----Original Message-----
  From: Barbara White [mailto:barbara@...]
  Sent: Sunday, June 15, 2003 11:30 AM
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: [Digital BW] Tom O'Connell's address


  Does anyone have Tom O'Connell's address for the print exchange? I
  either didn't get it or lost it and he's not replying to my email.
  Thanks!

  Barbara White


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  Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Roger and others concerned,

Here's Tom's message on Tues, June 3rd (after the end of the sign-up period), 
to participants in the print exchange for Jerry Olson:

"OK...the witching hour has come. We have 18 participants and I thank you all
for stepping up.
This means you make 19 prints (you will get back 17, one to Jerry's mother,
one to his gallery to sell as a fundraiser to start a fund to preserve his
work)."

John

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Roger L Sopher 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Sunday, June 15, 2003 5:11 PM
  Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Tom O'Connell's address


  Hi Barbara,

  This is Tom's address:

  165 Cloudview Trl
  Sausalito, CA 94965-2009

  How many people did the Jerry Olson exchange end up with? Last I heard it
  was 17.

  Roger

  Roger L Sopher
  rlsopher@...
  http:\\deCorrales.com

    -----Original Message-----
    From: Barbara White [mailto:barbara@...]
    Sent: Sunday, June 15, 2003 11:30 AM
    To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
    Subject: [Digital BW] Tom O'Connell's address


    Does anyone have Tom O'Connell's address for the print exchange? I
    either didn't get it or lost it and he's not replying to my email.
    Thanks!

    Barbara White


          Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                ADVERTISEMENT




    Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
  other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:

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  page.

    Please follow these basic guidelines:
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  them short.
    - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I'm using PS Elements + Hidden Elements. The combination of these two allows
one to apply
adjustment layers for levels to the separated Luminosity layer. This seems
to work well for me
after I have flattened the resulting image. I wonder whether PS itself
allows the same technique?

>            >
>      >      18. Re: Levels and grain... again...
>            From: "Mark Hahn" <markhahn2000@...>
>      >
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 2
>    Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 06:06:48 -0500
>    From: "Editor P.O.V. Image Service" <editor@...>
> Subject: Re: FINE ART PHOTOGRAPHY GALLERY  -  NEW VERSION!!
>
> Jeff Magidson wrote:
>
> > Furthermore, I think we really need to cut down on the
> >"look at my website" advertisements / postings on here. It is one thing
> >if you are a regular contributor to the list and want to add you
> >website to your signature but beyond that I think these "drive by"
> >postings are a nuisance..
> >
> >
>
> Agreed.
>
>
>
> Keith Krebs
>
> "Just some guy," and caretaker of the Multiverse's largest EPSON printer
> User Community (highly recommended by Vogon Poets and MegaDodo
> Publications), at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EPSON_Printers/
>
> "For the rest of you out there, the secret is to bang the rocks together
> guys"
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 3
>    Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 06:14:12 -0500
>    From: "Editor P.O.V. Image Service" <editor@...>
> Subject: Re: FINE ART PHOTOGRAPHY GALLERY  -  NEW VERSION!!
>
> Jeff Magidson wrote:
>
> >I tried to look at the site with 2 different browsers (Explorer and
> >Safari) and neither of them would load the galleries beyond the first
> >image properly.
> >
>
> Hmmm.. In WinXP it worked fine with IE 6, Netscape 7, and Opera 5.. But
> Netscape 4.79 choked on it..
>
>
> Keith Krebs
>
> "Just some guy," and caretaker of the Multiverse's largest EPSON printer
> User Community (highly recommended by Vogon Poets and MegaDodo
> Publications), at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EPSON_Printers/
>
> "For the rest of you out there, the secret is to bang the rocks together
> guys"
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 4
>    Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 07:19:08 -0600
>    From: "Alan Zimmerman" <azimmerman1@...>
> Subject: Re: Re: OT Minolta Dimage Scan Multi II
>
> Barrett, I agree with your comments. I'm one of those who still shoots
everything on film then scans the good stuff. It looks like Nikon believes
that market is still alive witnessed by there latest introduction of the
9000 scanner. I can't find any pricing or detailed specs however.Since it
seems to be multi format, it must replace the 8000. Has any one seen any
performance reviews or pricing.
> Alan
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: amateriat
>   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
>   Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2003 12:30 PM
>   Subject: [Digital BW] Re: OT Minolta Dimage Scan Multi II
>
>
>   I've said it before, and I'll say it again: If everybody switched to
>   digital image-capture tomorrow morning, there would *still* be a
>   need, and a market, for film scanners in several formats.
>
>   Having said that, the market for medium-format film scanners
>   has always lagged well behind 35mm.  It was only several years
>   back that I heard MF shooters bemoan the fact that there was
>   *nothing* on the market below five figures for scanning MF film,
>   while there were plenty (well, not quite *plenty*) of 35mm
>   scanners starting at a little over a grand.  When Polaroid, Nikon,
>   Minolta et al finally decided there was *just* enough of a market
>   to justify introducing MF film scanners, there were gripes about
>   the prices being asked for them (never mind that they were
>   cheap compared with, say, an 800-series Imacon, never mind a
>   Howtek or Tango). Since the Nikon 8000  has taken a sizable dip
>   in price, if I was a big MF shooter, I'd be on my way to the store
>   right now, never mind worries about something "new and
>   improved" possibly coming down the pike (just be glad these
>   things don't change nearly as quickly as digital cameras do!).
>
>   Of course, being a lowly 35mm-only shooter, I'll just have to
>   settle for buying a Minolta Dimage Scan Elite 5400 this week. :-)
>
>   - Barrett
>
>   --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "J
>   Michael Sullivan" <michael@h...> wrote:
>   > It is unfortunate that few manufacturers (if any) are going to
>   >release any new medium-format scanners in the foreseeable
>   >future (Imacon is an exception).
>
>   >Projected sales for high-end digital cameras will preclude a
>   >decent ROI on launching such a new product. Perhaps Nikon
>   >will come out with an improved 8000 though. It  would nice of
>   >them to enable current users to upgrade (again unlikely). More
>   >likely is better/cheaper flatbeds (a la Epson 3200) from the
>   >likes of Epson and others.
>   >
>   > mjs
>
>
>
>         Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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>   Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
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>   Please follow these basic guidelines:
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>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 5
>    Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 14:27:42 -0000
>    From: "pjkealey" <pjkealey@...>
> Subject: Help - Epson 1280 ejecting paper after a few passes.
>
> I have an epson 1280 set up for B&W with Piezo plug in through PS7.
> everything had been working fine with great prints until yesturday
> when I went to print, the print head would pass over the paper a few
> times, giving me about .66 of inch of dots then eject the paper.
> This was using the Piezo Plug in.  I took the same image printed
> from PS and it printed fine albeit ugly results without the plug in.
> I have tried reinstalling the piezo-plug in -no help.  Any
> suggestions. Help
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 6
>    Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 16:57:51 -0000
>    From: "coldehenri" <hc@...>
> Subject: profiling Lyson quad black
>
> I'using lyson quad black with epson 1290 Lyson gloss paper (profile
> lyson gloss)for 6 months. I spend money and time adjusting transfert
> curve and i haven't pretty good 21 step test. Without curve, 95% to
> 100% looks like pure black (eye and scanner). The first thing i do is
> a "straight" curve 0-0 to 97% the result seems better in the dark
> zone but when i try to darken 0 to 40% zone (keeping the 50-100 the
> same), all the gamut is modified. The reason may be random working
> (ink, printer)?
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 7
>    Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 09:37:10 -0800 (PST)
>    From: "D. Hill" <hill14701@...>
> Subject: Re: Help - Epson 1280 ejecting paper after a few passes.
>
> I don't know if this helps, but I get the same problem
> when trying to print an image that is 240 dpi on 11x14
> paper - it's the strangest thing.  I have the same
> setup and have not been able to solve this mystery.
> So I just don't print with a 240 dpi image on 11x14
> anymore.
>
> Don
>
>
>
> --- pjkealey <pjkealey@...> wrote:
> > I have an epson 1280 set up for B&W with Piezo plug
> > in through PS7.
> > everything had been working fine with great prints
> > until yesturday
> > when I went to print, the print head would pass over
> > the paper a few
> > times, giving me about .66 of inch of dots then
> > eject the paper.
> > This was using the Piezo Plug in.  I took the same
> > image printed
> > from PS and it printed fine albeit ugly results
> > without the plug in.
> > I have tried reinstalling the piezo-plug in -no
> > help.  Any
> > suggestions. Help
> >
> >
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard
> http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 8
>    Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 19:25:19 -0000
>    From: "amateriat" <bwbenton@...>
> Subject: Re: OT Minolta Dimage Scan Multi II
>
> Near as I can tell, the new Nikon scanners still max out at
> 4000dpi. However, they apparently enjoy a noticeable
> improvement in scanning speed, in addition to some hardware
> and software tweaks.
>
> - Barrett
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Alan
> Zimmerman" <azimmerman1@c...> wrote:
> > Barrett, I agree with your comments. I'm one of those who still
> shoots everything on film then scans the good stuff. It looks like
> Nikon believes that market is still alive witnessed by there latest
> introduction of the 9000 scanner. I can't find any pricing or
> detailed specs however.Since it seems to be multi format, it
> must replace the 8000. Has any one seen any performance
> reviews or pricing.
> > Alan
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 9
>    Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 14:28:18 -0500
>    From: "kenschuster" <ken.schuster@...>
> Subject: Re: FINE ART PHOTOGRAPHY GALLERY  -  NEW VERSION!!
>
> Yes!
>
> _____________________________________________
> Help end spam and telemarketing... never respond to it, even to
"unsubscribe."
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Editor P.O.V. Image Service
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2003 6:06 AM
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] FINE ART PHOTOGRAPHY GALLERY - NEW VERSION!!
>
>
> Jeff Magidson wrote:
>
> > Furthermore, I think we really need to cut down on the
> >"look at my website" advertisements / postings on here. It is one thing
> >if you are a regular contributor to the list and want to add you
> >website to your signature but beyond that I think these "drive by"
> >postings are a nuisance..
> >
> >
>
> Agreed.
>
>
>
> Keith Krebs
>
> "Just some guy," and caretaker of the Multiverse's largest EPSON printer
> User Community (highly recommended by Vogon Poets and MegaDodo
> Publications), at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EPSON_Printers/
>
> "For the rest of you out there, the secret is to bang the rocks together
> guys"
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other
> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them
> short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> resources on the homepage.
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 10
>    Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 19:52:12 -0000
>    From: "borisw8" <boris@...>
> Subject: clyde butcher carbon
>
> hi list.
>
> just noticed in a recent newsletter that my idol/god/inspiration,
> etc. Clyde Butcher is now offering 'archival carbon prints'.  looks
> like he is using a large-format epson with ultra-chrome inks.
>
> the really disturbing thing is that he is selling them for a
> fraction of what he is selling his traditional photographs for ($45.-
>  for a carbon 11x14 as opposed to $375.- for a 11x14
> traditional !!!).  i assume they are neither limited nor signed.  if
> not, that could spell trouble for someone like me who is not as
> famous as he is and is asking a heck of a lot more for a 11x14
> carbon print.
>
> anyway, the links is below if you are interested.
>
> <http://clydebutcher.com/emarket2/home.cfm?emailid=64>
>
> cheers,
>
> boris
>
> www.bawphoto.com
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 11
>    Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 15:07:51 -0500
>    From: Carl Schofield <scho@...>
> Subject: Re: clyde butcher carbon
>
> The digital prints he is selling are printed with UC inks on LexJet
> glossy paper.  I would think that bronzing might be a problem with that
> combo.
>
>
> On Tuesday, November 4, 2003, at 02:52  PM, borisw8 wrote:
>
> > hi list.
> >
> > just noticed in a recent newsletter that my idol/god/inspiration,
> > etc. Clyde Butcher is now offering 'archival carbon prints'.  looks
> > like he is using a large-format epson with ultra-chrome inks.
> >
> > the really disturbing thing is that he is selling them for a
> > fraction of what he is selling his traditional photographs for ($45.-
> >  for a carbon 11x14 as opposed to $375.- for a 11x14
> > traditional !!!).  i assume they are neither limited nor signed.  if
> > not, that could spell trouble for someone like me who is not as
> > famous as he is and is asking a heck of a lot more for a 11x14
> > carbon print.
> >
> > anyway, the links is below if you are interested.
> >
> > <http://clydebutcher.com/emarket2/home.cfm?emailid=64>
> >
> > cheers,
> >
> > boris
> >
> > www.bawphoto.com
> >
> >
> > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> > ---------------------~-->
> > Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark
> > Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US &
> > Canada.
> > http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511
> > http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/ucIolB/TM
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > ~->
> >
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls
> > and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >
> > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish
> > to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting
> > this same page.
> >
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > - Include your full name with your message.
> > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to
> > keep them short.
> > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject
> > header.
> > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames
> > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the
> > various resources on the homepage.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 12
>    Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 20:39:56 -0000
>    From: "jsinger986" <jsphotos@...>
> Subject: Levels and grain... again...
>
> Reading an old thread on levels and grain I had some questions...
>
> Regarding the difference between levels and curves... aren't they doing
exactly the
> same thing, just with different interfaces?  Additionally, curves gives
you more
> flexibility than levels (although levels has some features curves doesn't)
... but, the end
> result as far as the manipulation that is done to the image is identical.
So, one should
> not be "better" than the other WRT image degradation and grain.
>
> So if I was to put a quantitative number to the amount of contrast I need
to add to an
> image... lets say 20 points of contrast (whatever that may be).  If I add
20 points of
> contrast on an image using levels and 20 points of contrast in curves on a
copy of the
> same image, one image isn't going to be less degraded or less grainy
because I used
> curves instead of levels.
>
> Am I correct on this?  This is why I'm not sure I understand why people
say levels is
> more destructive and causes more grain than curves.
>
> Shouldn't the main point be to have as much contrast or do as much
manipulation in
> levels or curves, making sure not to clip information unnecessarily?
>
> Jeff
> http://www.jeffsingerphotography.com
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 13
>    Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 13:03:18 -0800
>    From: "Martin Wesley" <mwesley250@...>
> Subject: RE: clyde butcher carbon
>
> * -----Original Message-----
> * From: borisw8 [mailto:boris@...]
> * Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2003 11:52 AM
> * To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> * Subject: [Digital BW] clyde butcher carbon
> *
> *
> * hi list.
> *
> * just noticed in a recent newsletter that my idol/god/inspiration,
> * etc. Clyde Butcher is now offering 'archival carbon prints'.  looks
> * like he is using a large-format epson with ultra-chrome inks.
> *
> * the really disturbing thing is that he is selling them for a
> * fraction of what he is selling his traditional photographs
> * for ($45.-  for a carbon 11x14 as opposed to $375.- for a 11x14
> * traditional !!!).  i assume they are neither limited nor signed.  if
> * not, that could spell trouble for someone like me who is not as
> * famous as he is and is asking a heck of a lot more for a 11x14
> * carbon print.
> *
> * anyway, the links is below if you are interested.
> *
> <http://clydebutcher.com/emarket2/home.cfm?emailid=64>
>
> Boris,
>
> That is a significant development. I am a real fan of Clyde's work. I have
> always thought that the acceptance of digital B&W prints would depend upon
> well known photographers switching to digital printing and the emergence
of
> new photographers who will have never done any traditional printing. So
this
> is a good step forward.
>
> In your post you refer to his inkjet prints as carbon pigment prints but
> they aren't. He is using Epson UltraChrome inks which are a full color ink
> set using many different pigments. Since the display life of these inks is
> lower than what people expect from silver gelatin or a carbon pigment
inkjet
> print that may explain his lower price. Or perhaps since he is still
selling
> silver prints as well, he is offering a lower price to steer buyers
towards
> his inkjet prints so that he does not have to spend so much time in the
> darkroom. Or since they are on LexJet as Carl pointed out they don't look
so
> good. I have to say I would not be tempted to buy one of his inkjet prints
> given the materials he is using. In any case setting prices is an
individual
> business decision and how Clyde prices his prints shouldn't effect how you
> price yours.
>
> Martin Wesley
> http://www.carolyn.cc/Guests/MartinWesley/pages/MW_01.html
> http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 14
>    Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 13:28:12 -0800
>    From: "Paul D. DeRocco" <pderocco@...>
> Subject: RE: Levels and grain... again...
>
> > From: jsinger986 [mailto:jsphotos@...]
> >
> > Regarding the difference between levels and curves... aren't they
> > doing exactly the
> > same thing, just with different interfaces?  Additionally, curves
> > gives you more
> > flexibility than levels (although levels has some features curves
> > doesn't)... but, the end
> > result as far as the manipulation that is done to the image is
> > identical.  So, one should
> > not be "better" than the other WRT image degradation and grain.
>
> I think you're correct. As far as I know, all Levels does is put a
prettier
> user interface on the underlying Curves engine. This makes it easier to do
> certain very useful things, like adjust the color balance with an
> eyedropper, but it can't do other things, like boosting contrast with an S
> curve.
>
> --
>
> Ciao,               Paul D. DeRocco
> Paul                mailto:pderocco@...
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 15
>    Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 22:50:28 -0000
>    From: "B. Alex Pettit Jr." <a_pettit_jr@...>
> Subject: Re: clyde butcher carbon
>
> Yes, then again, realize that 11x14 mat contains only a 6x8" print
> ($45) and the 18x22 matted has a 10x14" print ($190).
>
> At roughly $1 per square inch, one of my 16x20 prints could be offered
> for about $320. Operators are standing by....
>
> Best,
> Alex
>
>
>
>
>
> >Clyde Butcher is now offering 'archival carbon prints'.  looks
> > like he is using a large-format epson with ultra-chrome inks.
> >
> > the really disturbing thing is that he is selling them for a
> > fraction of what he is selling his traditional photographs for ($45.
> -
> >  for a carbon 11x14 as opposed to $375.- for a 11x14
> > traditional !!!).
> >
> > boris
> >
> > www.bawphoto.com
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 16
>    Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 23:31:58 -0000
>    From: "borisw8" <boris@...>
> Subject: Re: clyde butcher carbon
>
>
> > In your post you refer to his inkjet prints as carbon pigment
> prints but
> > they aren't. He is using Epson UltraChrome inks which are a full
> color ink
> > set using many different pigments. Since the display life of these
> inks is
> > lower than what people expect from silver gelatin or a carbon
> pigment inkjet
> > print that may explain his lower price.
>
> Boy, I overlooked that.  He actually IS referring to them as
> carbon.  Here is an excerpt from his email:
>
> "I'm very excited about the new Archival Carbon Prints that are now
> available in the both galleries and on the website."
>
> Of course you are right in that the UC inks aren't.  Odd...
>
>
>  Or perhaps since he is still selling
> > silver prints as well,
>
> You bet.  for $290.- - $8,000.- instead of $75.- - $795.- (framed)
>
> I think I'm going to buy one to see what it looks like.  I can
> compare it too because I own one of his traditional sliver gelatin
> prints.
>
> boris
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 17
>    Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 23:12:28 -0000
>    From: "markiewiczur3d" <markiewiczur3d@...>
> Subject: New Pics
>
> http://www.geocities.com/Hendrickseewve/index.html
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 18
>    Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 23:52:10 -0000
>    From: "Mark Hahn" <markhahn2000@...>
> Subject: Re: Levels and grain... again...
>
> Levels is more intuitive for doing something like expanding your
> tonality, but you are right, if you only do one operation Levels
> should't be any more destructive than any other curve adjustment, BUT
> you will usually follow up a levels adjust with a s-curve for
> contrast which adds a second curve adjust so the sum of your
> destruction is going to be greater.  Better to do everything with one
> curve if possible.  I personally don't like using the "gamma slider"
> for contrast because it is only modifying the middle point on a 3
> point curve while a simple s-curve gives you much more control and
> flexiblity WRT the tonal region where you are actually modifying the
> gamma.  There really aren't really "20 pts of contrast", just the
> local slope of your curve adjustment.
>
> mark
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "jsinger986"
> <jsphotos@t...> wrote:
> > Reading an old thread on levels and grain I had some questions...
> >
> > Regarding the difference between levels and curves... aren't they
> doing exactly the
> > same thing, just with different interfaces?  Additionally, curves
> gives you more
> > flexibility than levels (although levels has some features curves
> doesn't)... but, the end
> > result as far as the manipulation that is done to the image is
> identical.  So, one should
> > not be "better" than the other WRT image degradation and grain.
> >
> > So if I was to put a quantitative number to the amount of contrast
> I need to add to an
> > image... lets say 20 points of contrast (whatever that may be).  If
> I add 20 points of
> > contrast on an image using levels and 20 points of contrast in
> curves on a copy of the
> > same image, one image isn't going to be less degraded or less
> grainy because I used
> > curves instead of levels.
> >
> > Am I correct on this?  This is why I'm not sure I understand why
> people say levels is
> > more destructive and causes more grain than curves.
> >
> > Shouldn't the main point be to have as much contrast or do as much
> manipulation in
> > levels or curves, making sure not to clip information unnecessarily?
> >
> > Jeff
> > http://www.jeffsingerphotography.com
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 19
>    Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 17:47:31 -0700
>    From: Tim Atherton <timatherton@...>
> Subject: Ilford Galerie printer driver?
>
> Has anyone tried (or even seen) the custom Printer Driver Ilford produced
> for it's Galerie papers?
>
> Apparently it's only been available free with Galerie papers in the UK and
> part of Europe.
>
> Anyone know where to get hold of the driver?
>
> http://www.ilford.com/html/us_english/prod_html/galerie/htm/gtp/gppd.htm
>
> thanks
>
> tim
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 20
>    Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 19:09:31 -0800
>    From: "Martin Wesley" <mwesley250@...>
> Subject: RE: Re: clyde butcher carbon
>
> * -----Original Message-----
> * From: borisw8 [mailto:boris@...]
> * Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2003 3:32 PM
> * To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> * Subject: [Digital BW] Re: clyde butcher carbon
> *
> (snip)
> *
> *  Or perhaps since he is still selling
> * > silver prints as well,
> *
> * You bet.  for $290.- - $8,000.- instead of $75.- - $795.- (framed)
> *
> * I think I'm going to buy one to see what it looks like.  I can
> * compare it too because I own one of his traditional sliver gelatin
> * prints.
> *
> Boris,
>
> If you do, let us know what you think. I am very curious.
>
> Clyde is probably one of the people who could not adjust to the lower Dmax
> of the carbon pigment inks on matte paper. He may be making a mistake on
> those "display life" numbers though. The values Epson publishes are only
> meaningful for the Epson papers actually tested. Of course he sure has a
lot
> of sun and humidity where he is at to do his own testing!
>
> Martin Wesley
> http://www.carolyn.cc/Guests/MartinWesley/pages/MW_01.html
> http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 21
>    Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 19:27:39 -0800 (PST)
>    From: Tom Baker <tbaker1328@...>
> Subject: Re: clyde butcher carbon
>
> All  -
>
> (Here's a rant!)  I print with Ultrachrome, and I like it.  But, Clyde is
doing a VERY SERIOUS DISERVICE to all of us if he is using Ultrachrom inks
and calling them carbon.  I don't know the man, but if any of you do, you
should have a little talk with him.  The work that Paul Roark, and the rest
of you are doing with the caron inks will be greatly set back by this sort
of thing.
>
> Tom Baker
>
> P.S.  I he is using carbon inks, I respectfully retract these statements.
>
>
>
> borisw8 <boris@...> wrote:
> hi list.
>
> just noticed in a recent newsletter that my idol/god/inspiration,
> etc. Clyde Butcher is now offering 'archival carbon prints'.  looks
> like he is using a large-format epson with ultra-chrome inks.
>
> the really disturbing thing is that he is selling them for a
> fraction of what he is selling his traditional photographs for ($45.-
> for a carbon 11x14 as opposed to $375.- for a 11x14
> traditional !!!).  i assume they are neither limited nor signed.  if
> not, that could spell trouble for someone like me who is not as
> famous as he is and is asking a heck of a lot more for a 11x14
> carbon print.
>
> anyway, the links is below if you are interested.
>
> <http://clydebutcher.com/emarket2/home.cfm?emailid=64>
>
> cheers,
>
> boris
>
> www.bawphoto.com
>
>
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> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 22
>    Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 03:29:22 -0000
>    From: "Terry" <teelions@...>
> Subject: Tyler Boley's curves
>
> Where in the File section are Tyler's curves? I can't seem to locate
> them. Are they zipped in PC format?
>
> Thanks
>
> Terry Lyons
> www.TLphoto.net
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 23
>    Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 21:41:09 -0600
>    From: "Christopher Williams" <leicachris@...>
> Subject: Re: Ilford Galerie printer driver?
>
> I was told by a US Ilford rep that there were some problems with the first
> drivers and they will send out new ones soon. The drivers were available
in
> 2pks of 25sht Smooth and Pearl papers.
>
> Chris
> New Orleans
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Tim Atherton" Subject: [Digital BW] Ilford Galerie printer driver?
>
>
> > Has anyone tried (or even seen) the custom Printer Driver Ilford
produced
> > for it's Galerie papers?
> >
> > Apparently it's only been available free with Galerie papers in the UK
and
> > part of Europe.
> >
> > Anyone know where to get hold of the driver?
> >
> > http://www.ilford.com/html/us_english/prod_html/galerie/htm/gtp/gppd.htm
> >
> > thanks
> >
> > tim
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 24
>    Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 19:48:13 -0800
>    From: "Martin Wesley" <mwesley250@...>
> Subject: RE: clyde butcher carbon
>
>
>
> * -----Original Message-----
> * From: Tom Baker [mailto:tbaker1328@...]
> * Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2003 7:28 PM
> * To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> * Subject: Re: [Digital BW] clyde butcher carbon
> *
> *
> * All  -
> *
> * (Here's a rant!)  I print with Ultrachrome, and I like it.
> * But, Clyde is doing a VERY SERIOUS DISERVICE to all of us if
> * he is using Ultrachrom inks and calling them carbon.  I don't
> * know the man, but if any of you do, you should have a little
> * talk with him.  The work that Paul Roark, and the rest of you
> * are doing with the caron inks will be greatly set back by
> * this sort of thing.
> *
> * Tom Baker
> *
> * P.S.  I he is using carbon inks, I respectfully retract these
> * statements.
>
> Tom,
>
> Clyde is using UltraChrome inks and does not claim that they are carbon
> pigment. Boris mis-interpreted Clyde's statement on his site. There is a
> tendency to not recognized the difference between the color pigment inks
and

> the carbon pigment grayscale inks. Not all pigment inkjet prints are the
> same.
>
> Martin
>
> (snip earlier)
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 25
>    Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 19:53:29 -0800
>    From: "Martin Wesley" <mwesley250@...>
> Subject: RE: Tyler Boley's curves
>
> * -----Original Message-----
> * From: Terry [mailto:teelions@...]
> * Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2003 7:29 PM
> * To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> * Subject: [Digital BW] Tyler Boley's curves
> *
> *
> * Where in the File section are Tyler's curves? I can't seem to locate
> * them. Are they zipped in PC format?
> *
> Terry,
>
> They are in the folder:
>
> Files > Ink Sets > MIS > MIS Variable Mix > 1280 PC MIS VM
>
> They were done for my PC and 1280 but may be platform independent.
>
> Martin Wesley
> http://www.carolyn.cc/Guests/MartinWesley/pages/MW_01.html
> http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

> From: serena wadham [mailto:xamol@...]
>
> I'm using PS Elements + Hidden Elements. The combination of these
> two allows one to apply
> adjustment layers for levels to the separated Luminosity layer. This seems
> to work well for me
> after I have flattened the resulting image. I wonder whether PS itself
> allows the same technique?

Yes, you can do this with adjustment layers, by setting the mode to
Luminosity. You can also do it without adjustment layers, by changing the
mode to Lab, and then back to RGB when you're done.

By the way, you need to remember not to quote the rest of the digest.

--

Ciao,               Paul D. DeRocco
Paul                mailto:pderocco@...

PS gives RGB, Lab and CYMK working color spaces and limited HSV 
adjustment capablities (and can often be tricked to simulate a true 
HSV working space).

mark

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul D. 
DeRocco" <pderocco@i...> wrote:
> > From: serena wadham [mailto:xamol@r...]
> >
> > I'm using PS Elements + Hidden Elements. The combination of these
> > two allows one to apply
> > adjustment layers for levels to the separated Luminosity layer. 
This seems
> > to work well for me
> > after I have flattened the resulting image. I wonder whether PS 
itself
> > allows the same technique?
> 
> Yes, you can do this with adjustment layers, by setting the mode to
> Luminosity. You can also do it without adjustment layers, by 
changing the
> mode to Lab, and then back to RGB when you're done.
> 
> By the way, you need to remember not to quote the rest of the 
digest.

> 
> --
> 
> Ciao,               Paul D. DeRocco
> Paul                mailto:pderocco@i...