Yahoo Groups archive

Digital BW, The Print

Index last updated: 2026-04-28 22:56 UTC

Thread

Masking with Digital images

Masking with Digital images

2005-07-01 by Paul Roark

I'm trying to work up my first B&W from an original Canon XT/350D shot, and
discovering good and bad news about digital originals.  I think the most
pleasant surprise I've just run into is how much easier masking can be if
the image is left in color and the saturation is run all the way up.  The
magic lasso works better and areas that where it was almost impossible to
see any edges in B&W  become quite distinct.  Unlike my previous and less
happy attempts with color film originals, the grain or noise of the color
digital image is so low that it doesn't through off the magic lasso tool.

 

(I've placed the draft Windmill image on my web page, below, but it still
need more work before it'll be ready for 16 x 20.)

 

Paul

www.PaulRoark.com <http://www.paulroark.com/>  

 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: Masking with Digital images

2005-07-02 by Clayton Jones

>Windmill image 

Nice!



Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

RE: [Digital BW] Re: Masking with Digital images

2005-07-02 by Paul Roark

Clayton,
  
> >Windmill image
> 
> Nice!

Thanks.  It still needs work, but I'm sharing the "Featured Artist" show
with another member of Gallery Los Olivos in August -- on short notice since
our best seller is leaving -- and I thought the locals in Solvang would
appreciate a good windmill shot.  Solvang -- a Danish settlement -- has a
lot of bogus windmills.  I had to go elsewhere to find one that didn't look
like it belonged on a cheap motel or miniature golf course.  (I hope the
locals don't see this post!)

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

2400...getting one this month I think

2005-07-02 by Douglas meeuwsen

Well,  My 1280 is starting to make some noises like the parts are 
loosening up, and I am thinking of just switching to the 2400. mainly 
because I have been wanting to do some color prints lately. I am going 
on vacation for ten days, so I'll have a bit to think it over. Any 
advise about this? Does the 2400 equal the MIS output? It seems to 
based on my looking at test prints..... and is the color output on 
non-matte paper better than the 2200? I think I read that it 
was....I'll be doing more reading, but welcome any advice! Thanks, DM
On Jul 1, 2005, at 6:15 PM, Paul Roark wrote:

>
>  Clayton,
>   
>  > >Windmill image
>  >
>  > Nice!
>
>  Thanks.  It still needs work, but I'm sharing the "Featured Artist" 
> show
>  with another member of Gallery Los Olivos in August -- on short 
> notice since
>  our best seller is leaving -- and I thought the locals in Solvang 
> would
>  appreciate a good windmill shot.  Solvang -- a Danish settlement -- 
> has a
>  lot of bogus windmills.  I had to go elsewhere to find one that 
> didn't look
>  like it belonged on a cheap motel or miniature golf course.  (I hope 
> the
>  locals don't see this post!)
>
>  Paul
>  www.PaulRoark.com
>
>
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
> resources as they are often being updated.
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
>  If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish 
> to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting 
> this same page.
>
>  Please follow these basic guidelines:
>  - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to 
> keep them short.
>  - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or 
> flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from 
> the membership without notice.
>  - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital 
> B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be 
> removed from the membership.
>  - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and 
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group 
> Owner and Moderators. See “Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines” in the 
> Files section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
>
>  BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE 
> PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE “OWNER” 
> AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE 
> LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, 
> CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, 
> DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE 
> LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  “OWNER” AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT 
> YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), 
> RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, 
> THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF 
> YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD 
> PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER 
> MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
>
>
>
>
> SPONSORED LINKS
> Digital photography technique
> Digital photography
> Digital photography software
> Photography school
> Professional digital photography
> Stock photography
>
> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
>
> 	▪ 	 Visit your group "DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint" on the web.
>  
> 	▪ 	 To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>  DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>  
> 	▪ 	 Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of 
> Service.
>
>
  

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Artifacts with Digital images

2005-07-02 by Paul Roark

In working the Windmill image (see my web page below) up to 16 x 20, I found
2 defects in the 8 mp Canon XT/350D image.  First, there was what looked
almost like a double edge at the boundary between the dark tree trunks and
the bright, foggy sky.  I think it was caused by flare and the different
responses of the RGB sensors.  Second, there was visible stair-stepping in
some of the twigs that stick into the sky.  These seem to have resulted
simply from the lack of enough pixels.  I seem to be able to have cured both
problems.

For the edge between the dark tree and bright sky, using a singe color
channel from the shot that was 2 stops under exposed resulted in a very good
edge.

For the stair-stepped twigs, increasing resolution (image pixel size) 250%
in Genuine Fractals took care of them.  It did a significantly better job of
this than did the Photoshop image size algorithm.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

RE: [Digital BW] Artifacts with Digital images

2005-07-02 by John Moody

Paul,
Was the image shot in RAW format?  The AA filter in the XT should not allow
those type of defects.
I just got back a 9600 color print on HPR at the insane size of 30 x 45
inches.  It was shot with L glass on my Rebel XT, and I'm quite pleased with
it.  Where hung, you can't get closer than 6 feet to it, so it looks
excellent.  I also have a 1Ds, so I do have something to compare it to.  I
experimented quite a bit with the res-up and sharpening before getting the
results I settled on.

Best regards,
John Moody
Show quoted textHide quoted text
-----Original Message-----
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Paul Roark
Sent: Saturday, July 02, 2005 1:04 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Artifacts with Digital images


In working the Windmill image (see my web page below) up to 16 x 20, I found
2 defects in the 8 mp Canon XT/350D image.  First, there was what looked
almost like a double edge at the boundary between the dark tree trunks and
the bright, foggy sky.  I think it was caused by flare and the different
responses of the RGB sensors.  Second, there was visible stair-stepping in
some of the twigs that stick into the sky.  These seem to have resulted
simply from the lack of enough pixels.  I seem to be able to have cured both
problems.

For the edge between the dark tree and bright sky, using a singe color
channel from the shot that was 2 stops under exposed resulted in a very good
edge.

For the stair-stepped twigs, increasing resolution (image pixel size) 250%
in Genuine Fractals took care of them.  It did a significantly better job of
this than did the Photoshop image size algorithm.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

RE: [Digital BW] Artifacts with Digital images

2005-07-02 by Paul Roark

John,

> Was the image shot in RAW format? 

Yes.

> The AA filter in the XT should not allow those types of defects.

One tester of the XT noted that the Anti-Aliasing (AA) filter of the XT
appeared to be weaker than what was used on the 20D.  The reviewer commented
that the result was slightly higher sharpness but a bit of a problem with
some line patterns on, for example, shirts. 

I think extreme flare and color fringing caused the "double edge" of the
tree-sky boundary.  And the stair-stepping only showed up as a clear digital
artifact on the one little branch at about a 30 degree angle to the left of
the windmill.  These conditions won't show up much in most images.


> I just got back a 9600 color print on HPR at the insane size of 30 x 45
> inches.  It was shot with L glass on my Rebel XT, and I'm quite pleased
> with it.  Where hung, you can't get closer than 6 feet to it, so it looks
> excellent.  I also have a 1Ds, so I do have something to compare it to.  I
> experimented quite a bit with the res-up and sharpening before getting the
> results I settled on.

Overall, I'd say the image I worked up would have benefited from more pixels
and, obviously, more latitude.  However, while the image quality is not up
to my medium format Tech Pan, I'm quite satisfied with the results.  I see
the camera not as a replacement for the MF TP, but as a replacement for the
Fuji Zi 645 and Tmax 100 or T400CN that I use in it when I'm having to do
fast shooting.  While the Tmax 100 would have been sharper, I don't think it
would have been able to render the creamy-smooth high tones of the fog and
windmill in the fog.  The grainlessness (low noise) of the Canon really
shows and is very much appreciated.  Also, combining bracketed images with
the digital camera was far easier than with a film camera.  Even when I keep
the film shots together (un-cut) for scanning, the alignment shifts as I go
from one area of an image to another.  With the digital frames, each one is
exactly the same (except for wind movement of leaves, etc.).

So far, so good -- not perfect, but good.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 
_______________
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Paul
> Roark
> Sent: Saturday, July 02, 2005 1:04 PM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Digital BW] Artifacts with Digital images
> 
> 
> In working the Windmill image (see my web page below) up to 16 x 20, I
> found
> 2 defects in the 8 mp Canon XT/350D image.  First, there was what looked
> almost like a double edge at the boundary between the dark tree trunks and
> the bright, foggy sky.  I think it was caused by flare and the different
> responses of the RGB sensors.  Second, there was visible stair-stepping in
> some of the twigs that stick into the sky.  These seem to have resulted
> simply from the lack of enough pixels.  I seem to be able to have cured
> both
> problems.
> 
> For the edge between the dark tree and bright sky, using a singe color
> channel from the shot that was 2 stops under exposed resulted in a very
> good
> edge.
> 
> For the stair-stepped twigs, increasing resolution (image pixel size) 250%
> in Genuine Fractals took care of them.  It did a significantly better job
> of
> this than did the Photoshop image size algorithm.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>

Re: [Digital BW] Artifacts with Digital images

2005-07-02 by dfaprinting

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 

I wonder what something like a polarizer would do to the color 
fringing problem with the fuzzy edges you had. And or maybe a color 
filter in front of the lens, like you might use with black and white 
film. Just a guess at would I might try, might not work at all.

The color fringing isn't just a problem with the "cheap" digitals, 
take a good close look at the latest Getty test image. somewhat 
hidden, but the problem is there, most easily seen in the clock face 
(if my memory is correct).

RE: [Digital BW] Artifacts with Digital images

2005-07-02 by John Moody

Paul,
Good deal.  I hope you post the final version for us; the composition is
very nice.
More pixels..always a good thing.

John
Show quoted textHide quoted text
-----Original Message-----
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Paul Roark
Sent: Saturday, July 02, 2005 2:12 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Artifacts with Digital images

John,

> Was the image shot in RAW format?

Yes.
<snip>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Artifacts with Digital images

2005-07-02 by Steve Kale

And better yet, more bit depth....unless you don't like dynamic range... ;-)
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> From: John Moody <moodymz3@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2005 15:50:12 -0400
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Artifacts with Digital images
> 
> Paul,
> Good deal.  I hope you post the final version for us; the composition is
> very nice.
> More pixels..always a good thing.
> 
> John

Re: [Digital BW] Artifacts with Digital images

2005-07-02 by Jeff Medkeff

Steve Kale wrote:


> And better yet, more bit depth....unless you don't like dynamic range... ;-)

Wandering a bit off topic here, but it is kind of a myth that bit depth 
correlates to dynamic range. Dynamic range is physically related to the 
range of possible photosite well potentials, often called "well depth." 
This range can be sampled in as few or many bits as you want at a 
constant dynamic range.

This is why even an 8 bit ADC on an old MF digital back with gigantic 
24mu pixels buys you so much more dynamic range than any miniature 
format (35mm size or smaller) digital camera on the market today, even 
if you read out the latter at 12 bits. The latter cameras typically have 
photosites on the order of 6 to 12 mu, and that provides a firm limit to 
the potentials available in each pixel.

What I'm getting at is that if you want more dynamic range, you should 
obsess about getting a bigger sensor with bigger photosites, rather than 
one that has an ADC that reads out more bits. I'm sure Nikon or Canon is 
going to come up with a 16 bit RAW file in the next couple generations, 
and photographers are going to freak out over it as though it is the 
Second Coming of dynamic range. But it won't actually make any 
difference to dynamic range unless there are also significant 
differences to the sensor engineering compared to current sensors.

Couple examples: I use a couple of scientific cameras that read out 16 
bits, but they have more than a stop less dynamic range than Canon's 1Ds 
II which reads out at only 12. Similarly, comparing a jpeg to a raw on 
the latter camera convinces me that there isn't a great deal of 
difference in dynamic range between the two, if any; but there is a 
useful difference in how well that range is sampled. I keep hearing 
photographers say that raw has more dynamic range than an in-camera 
jpeg, but I have a very hard time measuring this difference with my cameras.

One of the most frustrating things about digital is the fixed bit depth 
and dynamic range of the sensors. Whereas you can switch to a high 
contrast film to sample subtle tonal differences in the real world over 
a larger range of densities, digital is not so flexible. I think this is 
the source of a lot of the 'growing pains' that former film 
photographers experience when they pick up digital for the first time.

--
Jeff Medkeff
Eagle River, Alaska

Re: [Digital BW] Artifacts with Digital images

2005-07-02 by Steve Kale

Yes I guess this is a bit off this topic but there is an interesting
discussion here from which I conclude we want greater bit depth and lower
noise - the latter being highly correlated to the size of the pixel.  All
else being equal (including noise), greater bit depth increases dynamic
range.  This is a big "sales point" for the digital backs that are true 16
bit.  Anyway the point of the matter is there is more to a digital camera
than the number of pixels as we all know.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> From: Jeff Medkeff <medkeff@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Sat, 02 Jul 2005 12:38:40 -0800
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Artifacts with Digital images
> 
> 
> 
> Steve Kale wrote:
> 
> 
>> And better yet, more bit depth....unless you don't like dynamic range... ;-)
> 
> Wandering a bit off topic here, but it is kind of a myth that bit depth
> correlates to dynamic range. Dynamic range is physically related to the
> range of possible photosite well potentials, often called "well depth."
> This range can be sampled in as few or many bits as you want at a
> constant dynamic range.
> 
> This is why even an 8 bit ADC on an old MF digital back with gigantic
> 24mu pixels buys you so much more dynamic range than any miniature
> format (35mm size or smaller) digital camera on the market today, even
> if you read out the latter at 12 bits. The latter cameras typically have
> photosites on the order of 6 to 12 mu, and that provides a firm limit to
> the potentials available in each pixel.
> 
> What I'm getting at is that if you want more dynamic range, you should
> obsess about getting a bigger sensor with bigger photosites, rather than
> one that has an ADC that reads out more bits. I'm sure Nikon or Canon is
> going to come up with a 16 bit RAW file in the next couple generations,
> and photographers are going to freak out over it as though it is the
> Second Coming of dynamic range. But it won't actually make any
> difference to dynamic range unless there are also significant
> differences to the sensor engineering compared to current sensors.
> 
> Couple examples: I use a couple of scientific cameras that read out 16
> bits, but they have more than a stop less dynamic range than Canon's 1Ds
> II which reads out at only 12. Similarly, comparing a jpeg to a raw on
> the latter camera convinces me that there isn't a great deal of
> difference in dynamic range between the two, if any; but there is a
> useful difference in how well that range is sampled. I keep hearing
> photographers say that raw has more dynamic range than an in-camera
> jpeg, but I have a very hard time measuring this difference with my cameras.
> 
> One of the most frustrating things about digital is the fixed bit depth
> and dynamic range of the sensors. Whereas you can switch to a high
> contrast film to sample subtle tonal differences in the real world over
> a larger range of densities, digital is not so flexible. I think this is
> the source of a lot of the 'growing pains' that former film
> photographers experience when they pick up digital for the first time.
> 
> --
> Jeff Medkeff
> Eagle River, Alaska

Re: [Digital BW] Artifacts with Digital images

2005-07-02 by Jeff Medkeff

Steve Kale wrote:


> Yes I guess this is a bit off this topic but there is an interesting
> discussion here from which I conclude we want greater bit depth and lower
> noise 

Amen to that.


> All
> else being equal (including noise), greater bit depth increases dynamic
> range.

No, that's just not correct. Sorry, it is not my intention to be merely 
contentious; I think this is an important user issue with respect to 
digital cameras. All greater bit depth gives you is better (finer) 
sampling of the dynamic range the sensor can sense.

If you take a Kodak test strip - one with "black" at one end, "white" at 
the other, and a bunch of grays in between - you could slice that up 
into 8 equal pieces with an x-acto knife, or you could slice it up into 
12 equal pieces. Although the size of the pieces gets smaller, your top 
and bottom ends remain the same no matter which you do.

This is analogous to what is happening in a digital camera - well 
potential is being amplified and sent through an analog-to-digital 
converter. You could have that converter output in eight bits, ten, 
twelve, or fifty, but changing ADCs would *never* change the potential 
in the well. The only thing you change with bit depth is the tonal 
"distance" between steps. Remember these sensors are linear, unlike film!

It is more correct to say that all other things being equal, greater 
photosite size increases dynamic range. The rubber meets the road for 
photographers when choosing a camera; there isn't much relevance to this 
at exposure time when you are already committed. Paul's 8 megapixel XT 
is a great camera. But it and its brother the 20D both have less - 
considerably less - dynamic range than Canon's 1D mark II. The 1D II 
does not read out more bits, nor does it have more pixels, nor is it 
lower in intrinsic noise. What it has are larger photosites.

OTOH when shooting a scene with a large dynamic range, then you want as 
many bits as you can come by - I don't dispute this. This isn't because 
it lets you record more range before blowing the highlights or burying 
the low end in mud; it is because you want all the flexibility you can 
get when you pull that range to the gamut of an output device and start 
to put tree trunks in the histogram. This is a separate issue.

All this is measurable. Don't take my word for it; if dynamic range is 
important to you, it is a pretty easy job to compare the dynamic range 
of different cameras to an adopted level of the signal's statistical 
significance.


 > This is a big "sales point" for the digital backs that are true 16
> bit.

The digital backs have greater dynamic range, but this is not a result 
of their bit depth. Rather the reverse is true - they *need* to sample 
with more bits due to the greater dynamic range; if they did not, the 
flux differences between adjacent ADU's would eventually grow large 
enough to appear posterized even in the unmanipulated, linear image. 
Somewhere around here I've got images read out from engineering grade 
sensors that show just this effect, using 35mu photosites and 8 bit ADCs.

--
Jeff Medkeff
Eagle River, Alaska

Re: [Digital BW] Artifacts with Digital images

2005-07-02 by dfaprinting

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale 
<stevekale@b...> wrote:
> Yes I guess this is a bit off this topic but there is an interesting
> discussion here from which I conclude we want greater bit depth and 
lower
> noise - the latter being highly correlated to the size of the pixel.


Cooling the chip can also reduce the noise. TV camera manufacturers 
found this very quickly when they made the move from tubes to chips. 
The prefered method is with active solid state cooling (peltier) 
devices glued to the chips and prism. I'm not sure if any 
manufacturer is doing this for still cameras, but it might be very 
beneficial for long exposures.

Re: [Digital BW] Artifacts with Digital images

2005-07-02 by Jeff Medkeff

dfaprinting wrote:


> I'm not sure if any 
> manufacturer is doing this for still cameras, but it might be very 
> beneficial for long exposures.

I'm not familiar with any camera maker selling to conventional 
photographers that has a cooled sensor camera, but you might check out 
cameras from Roper Scientific and Apogee. I'm not familiar with their 
current lines, but in the past, a couple models were usable portably. I 
don't recall any of them had faster shutters than 1/10 second, though. 
And the power requirements for thermoelectric cooling are substantial 
(the nitrogen cooled ones require dragging around a tank). On the other 
hand, all of them were monochrome with no IR blockers, and 16 bit.

Cooling will be very beneficial for long exposures, as you say. My old 
10D has 0.25 ADU dark current per second per pixel at ISO 400, with a 
bias offset under 130 ADU. So dark noise on that camera gets significant 
after several minutes of exposure time. I'm more concerned about photon 
noise until out past five minutes or so, at which point I start to apply 
calibration frames to my images to deal with dark and bias noise.

Photon noise is another area in which the larger photosite has a 
commanding advantage. This extrinsic source of noise can't be engineered 
around, but it scales inversely with the photosite's effective area, so 
it can be controlled to some degree.

Sorry, we seem to be hitting all my geek buttons today. I make a 
substantial portion of my living doing scientific imaging, so I'm 
neck-deep in these engineering considerations on a daily basis. OTOH I 
don't know squat about printing B&W.

--
Jeff Medkeff
Eagle River, Alaska

RE: [Digital BW] Artifacts with Digital images

2005-07-02 by Paul Roark

Jeff,

I don't think these discussions are OT at all; please don't hold back the
technical information.  This is good stuff.  Thanks for sharing your
expertise.

>...
> Photon noise is another area in which the larger photosite has a
> commanding advantage. This extrinsic source of noise can't be engineered
> around, but it scales inversely with the photosite's effective area, so
> it can be controlled to some degree.

If the sensors are inefficient, capturing less than 100% of the photons,
wouldn't increasing sensor efficiency be the same as enlarging a cell of the
same efficiency? 

How efficient are our sensors?  Occasionally I see articles on solar cells,
and the efficiency of them seems to be slowly getting better, but progress
seems agonizingly slow.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Re: [Digital BW] Artifacts with Digital images

2005-07-02 by Steve Kale

I forgot the reference...

http://www.normankoren.com/digital_tonality.html

And will end it there...  :-)
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> From: Steve Kale <stevekale@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Sat, 02 Jul 2005 21:58:14 +0100
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Artifacts with Digital images
> 
> Yes I guess this is a bit off this topic but there is an interesting
> discussion here from which I conclude we want greater bit depth and lower
> noise - the latter being highly correlated to the size of the pixel.  All
> else being equal (including noise), greater bit depth increases dynamic
> range.  This is a big "sales point" for the digital backs that are true 16
> bit.  Anyway the point of the matter is there is more to a digital camera
> than the number of pixels as we all know.
>

RE: [Digital BW] Artifacts with Digital images

2005-07-03 by Richard

On the basis of what you have claimed below, can we assume a single bit chip
24x36mm would be the ultimate?

Richard

> -----Original Message-----
> From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jeff
> Medkeff
> Sent: Saturday, July 02, 2005 10:32 PM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Artifacts with Digital images
> 
> 
> 
> Steve Kale wrote:
> 
> 
> > Yes I guess this is a bit off this topic but there is an interesting
> > discussion here from which I conclude we want greater bit depth and
> lower
> > noise
> 
> Amen to that.
> 
> 
> > All
> > else being equal (including noise), greater bit depth increases dynamic
> > range.
> 
> No, that's just not correct. Sorry, it is not my intention to be merely
> contentious; I think this is an important user issue with respect to
> digital cameras. All greater bit depth gives you is better (finer)
> sampling of the dynamic range the sensor can sense.
> 
> If you take a Kodak test strip - one with "black" at one end, "white" at
> the other, and a bunch of grays in between - you could slice that up
> into 8 equal pieces with an x-acto knife, or you could slice it up into
> 12 equal pieces. Although the size of the pieces gets smaller, your top
> and bottom ends remain the same no matter which you do.
> 
> This is analogous to what is happening in a digital camera - well
> potential is being amplified and sent through an analog-to-digital
> converter. You could have that converter output in eight bits, ten,
> twelve, or fifty, but changing ADCs would *never* change the potential
> in the well. The only thing you change with bit depth is the tonal
> "distance" between steps. Remember these sensors are linear, unlike film!
> 
> It is more correct to say that all other things being equal, greater
> photosite size increases dynamic range. The rubber meets the road for
> photographers when choosing a camera; there isn't much relevance to this
> at exposure time when you are already committed. Paul's 8 megapixel XT
> is a great camera. But it and its brother the 20D both have less -
> considerably less - dynamic range than Canon's 1D mark II. The 1D II
> does not read out more bits, nor does it have more pixels, nor is it
> lower in intrinsic noise. What it has are larger photosites.
> 
> OTOH when shooting a scene with a large dynamic range, then you want as
> many bits as you can come by - I don't dispute this. This isn't because
> it lets you record more range before blowing the highlights or burying
> the low end in mud; it is because you want all the flexibility you can
> get when you pull that range to the gamut of an output device and start
> to put tree trunks in the histogram. This is a separate issue.
> 
> All this is measurable. Don't take my word for it; if dynamic range is
> important to you, it is a pretty easy job to compare the dynamic range
> of different cameras to an adopted level of the signal's statistical
> significance.
> 
> 
>  > This is a big "sales point" for the digital backs that are true 16
> > bit.
> 
> The digital backs have greater dynamic range, but this is not a result
> of their bit depth. Rather the reverse is true - they *need* to sample
> with more bits due to the greater dynamic range; if they did not, the
> flux differences between adjacent ADU's would eventually grow large
> enough to appear posterized even in the unmanipulated, linear image.
> Somewhere around here I've got images read out from engineering grade
> sensors that show just this effect, using 35mu photosites and 8 bit ADCs.
> 
> --
> Jeff Medkeff
> Eagle River, Alaska
> 


---
[This E-mail has been scanned for viruses but it is your responsibility 
to maintain up to date anti virus software on the device that you are
currently using to read this email. ]

Re: [Digital BW] Artifacts with Digital images

2005-07-03 by Mark Rabiner

On 7/2/05 6:03 PM, "Richard" <richard@...-bulldog.com> typed:

> On the basis of what you have claimed below, can we assume a single bit chip
> 24x36mm would be the ultimate?
> 
> Richard
> 
³the ultimate²?!

Not that¹s a concept which leaves lots to the imagination!
Kind of reminds me of many times when I go to the store.
They say:
³Is that everything²?
And I say 
³I sure hope not!²
To me ³Everything² is more inclusive than a pocket flashlight and a Diet
Coke which you just bought from Walgreen's².
Perhaps I think more globally than most people. Galacticly even. Depends on
what movies I¹ve seen lately.
I just think you¹ve got to be harder to please than that!
:)

Why is it with digital capture people forget the existence of medium format
and large format camera systems? It baffles me!
Why!?!?!

Is the universe 24x36 trillion light-years big?
If so I¹m fond of that shape!


Mark Rabiner
Photography
Portland Oregon
http://rabinergroup.com/





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Artifacts with Digital images

2005-07-03 by Jeff Medkeff

Richard wrote:


> On the basis of what you have claimed below, can we assume a single bit chip
> 24x36mm would be the ultimate?

The ultimate what? A single bit would give you two values, dark and 
bright. So obviously that would not be very useful unless you were 
looking to replace lith film, and even then there are easier ways.

In all probability you would have a huge dynamic range, though. I'm 
familiar with a scanning all-sky camera, which has a single CCD process 
photosite just under a dozen millimeters on a side. It puts 
fainter-than-visible stars (~12mv) above the noise floor and can fit an 
image of the full moon (~-13mv) in to the image alongside them without 
clipping. That's a brightness ratio of around ten billion.

--
Jeff Medkeff
Eagle River, Alaska

Re: [Digital BW] Artifacts with Digital images

2005-07-03 by Jeff Medkeff

Paul Roark wrote:



> If the sensors are inefficient, capturing less than 100% of the photons,
> wouldn't increasing sensor efficiency be the same as enlarging a cell of the
> same efficiency? 

> How efficient are our sensors?

Paul, here's some stuff, much of which is pasted from lecture outlines 
for an introductory class I teach. Much regarding responsivity, noise, 
and dynamic range, but very long:

Quantum efficiency is the metric that specifies what proportion of 
photons reaching the photoelectric sensor surface are converted to 
electrons and captured by the potential well. The only measurement of 
quantum efficiency I know of for a Canon camera was made by Christian 
Buil of a 300D (Digital Rebel); IIRC he figured around a 0.25 QE. This 
seems plausible on other grounds; a few years ago, a CMOS sensor with a 
QE of 0.4 was considered very highly efficient, and was sold at a large 
premium. As far as I know, Canon doesn't specify the QE of their sensors 
except for medical and industrial imagers.

CCD sensors are available in a range of QE from say 0.5 to around 0.95 
(for very expensive science chips). Nikon users with CCD cameras can get 
the QE from the sensor manufacturer in many cases.

Most of these sensors are Bayer filtered, and that cuts a lot of light 
prior to detection. But on the other hand, many of them have 
microlenses, which direct light that would have otherwise missed it into 
the photosite (perhaps this light would have struck circuitry adjacent 
to the photosite instead). These considerations affect the responsivity 
of the sensor - how responsive it is to the scene.

So tricks like microlensing increase the responsivity of the sensor (you 
capture more photons than an otherwise identical sensor without 
microlenses), but do not increase the quantum efficiency. Filtering 
reduces responsivity but does not reduce quantum efficiency.

If you increase the effective photosite size, you will increase the 
responsivity of the sensor, because you are letting it scoop up photons 
from a bigger area. Putting a microlens in front of the photosite has 
the same effect. This is a really good thing to do, because it also 
reduces photon noise.

Photon noise is a result of photons arriving at the sensor in a 
disorganized way. They don't come as though they were all neatly and 
evenly lined up on a factory conveyor; instead, picture water spurting 
from a garden hose half full of air: photons arrive in bursts (arrivals 
follow a Poisson distribution). If two adjacent photosites are looking 
at something with exactly the same tone, photon noise will almost always 
insure these two photosites end up with different values in the 
resulting picture.

Increasing the area of the photosite (through microlensing or otherwise) 
gives you a bigger net to catch photons with; this tends to average out 
the burstiness of their arrival time. Hence you get less noise in the 
image. Most digital cameras today are not limited by bias and dark noise 
in normal photography; the bulk of the visible noise in an image is the 
result of photon noise. This is a prime source of many photographers' 
obsessions with large photosites (and hence large sensors, which are 
needed to regain the lost spatial resolution of large photosites).

So the sensor is a balance of considerations that include photosite 
size, QE, and responsivity modifiers. These only affect detection, 
though. If you can't read out the sensor, it is all to naught.

A photosite responding to a photon produces an electron through the 
photoelectric effect. This electron typically gets captured in a 
potential well. (NB: When I say "potential," I mean voltage; when Normal 
Koren says it on that page that was quoted, he refers to that which is 
mathematically possible - this isn't apples and oranges, it is more like 
apples and duckbill platypuses.) The electrons get stored in what 
amounts to a little capacitor right on the sensor. Electrons sitting 
around in this potential well, which do not belong there because they 
came from somewhere other than photons, constitutes noise.

So the dynamic range of the sensor is defined at the low end by noise - 
spurious electrons hanging out in the potential well (plus amplifier 
static contributed during readout). You have to pick a statistical 
significance that constitutes non-black - "real" black might be defined 
as (say) anything below 25 sigma in the image that gets read out.

At the high end, the dynamic range of the sensor is defined by clipping. 
A certain number of electrons can be stored in the potential well. If 
you go above that number, the potential (=voltage) gets high enough that 
some electrons find other ways off the sensor than through the readout 
circuits. A capacitor can only hold so much juice.

If the maximum number of electrons the well can hold is 1,000 (we'll use 
a conveniently small, entirely made-up number), then if you put 1,000 
electrons in the well you read out white. If you try to put 1,001 
electrons in it, you read out white. If you try to fill it with 2,000 
electrons you still get white. The useful dynamic range is between the 
noise floor and the potential well's clipping point.

Big photosites have big wells. They can store more electrons than a 
small photosite with a small well. But they don't generate any 
additional noise. So the white point gets brighter; the black point 
stays the same. If you are saying to yourself that it sounds like this 
is one way to increase dynamic range, you are right.

(You can also clip in other ways - amplifiers can clip before the well 
is filled, for example. It doesn't matter much to the end result - it 
simply means that you can only *measure* so many electrons from the 
well, which is not much different from only being able to *store* so 
many in the well.)

Once the exposure is over, the signal is read out. The potential 
(=voltage) in the well is amplified; the amplifier output is sent to an 
analog-to-digital converter. Most ADCs on digital cameras output 12 
bits. So the ADC outputs 4096 analog-to-digital units (ADUs). This gets 
recorded in your raw file.

The big myth in dynamic range discussions is that somehow, if only you 
could change those ADUs to give you more bits, you'd have more dynamic 
range. Unfortunately the ADUs operate after image capture - they can 
have no effect on the white clipping point of the photosite well.

Now to be fair, there is a reason for the irrational conclusion that 
bits equals dynamic range: A camera with a larger dynamic range 
*requires* more ADUs to properly sample the signal. Therefore cameras 
with higher dynamic range tend to, on average, output more bits.

Think of it this way. If you are sampling a brightness ratio of ten, and 
you have 4096 ADUs to do it with, the difference between two adjacent 
ADUs is a ratio of 1.0024. In other words, a part of the scene producing 
an ADU of 100 is 1.002 times brighter than a part of the scene producing 
an ADU of 101. Let's consider this a "small" difference. You can take a 
picture full of subtle tonal differences, and really define a texture 
(like an egg, say) with such a camera.

If, however, you are sampling a brightness ratio of 100 with 4096 ADUs, 
then the step ratio is (predictably) 1.024. In this new situation there 
is a big real-world brightness difference between a pixel value of 100 
and a pixel value of 101. This leads to posterization; you aren't 
recording enough brightness differences to define a surface. Therefore, 
(most) makers of sensors that have a big dynamic range (usually) provide 
more ADUs in output. Photographers tend to reduce this to the formula 
that the more bits a camera outputs, the more dynamic range it has. 
Unfortunately, using that formula to choose a camera can burn you badly, 
because there are a number of exceptions to the rule. Some cameras 
merely sample a poor dynamic range with excessive precision.

Now, is all this merely theoretical? No. Much of it can lead to better 
decisions at exposure time and camera-purchase time, just as knowledge 
of tone curves and spectral response of film helps the analog 
photographer at exposure time and film-purchase time. Tone curves and 
spectral response are pretty arcane topics in themselves - many 
beginners succumb to mistaken thinking on these topics. The digital 
medium is different, but no more arcane. Perhaps it is true that 
awareness of its technical underpinnings has not penetrated the 
conventional photographic world very effectively as yet.

--
Jeff Medkeff
Eagle River, Alaska

Re: [Digital BW] Artifacts with Digital images

2005-07-03 by Bert Katzung

Cooling has a dramatic effect on noise --- most of the CCD cameras used in 
astronomy are cooled. The amateur cameras (eg, www.sbig.com) use 1- or 
2-stage Peltier cooling and the professional ones use liquid nitrogen. In 
addition, both dark frames and flat frames are used to calibrate the light 
frames to further reduce artifacts.
Bert

katzung1@...
www.astronomy-images.com
www.visionlightgallery.com/katzung/
Show quoted textHide quoted text
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "dfaprinting" <dfaprinting@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, July 02, 2005 2:50 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Artifacts with Digital images


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale
<stevekale@b...> wrote:
> Yes I guess this is a bit off this topic but there is an interesting
> discussion here from which I conclude we want greater bit depth and
lower
> noise - the latter being highly correlated to the size of the pixel.


Cooling the chip can also reduce the noise. TV camera manufacturers
found this very quickly when they made the move from tubes to chips.
The prefered method is with active solid state cooling (peltier)
devices glued to the chips and prism. I'm not sure if any
manufacturer is doing this for still cameras, but it might be very
beneficial for long exposures.




Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as 
they are often being updated.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to 
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same 
page.

Please follow these basic guidelines:
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep 
them short.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. 
Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the 
membership without notice.
- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W 
printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from 
the membership.
- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and 
guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and 
Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files section:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/

BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT 
YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND 
"MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU 
FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY 
DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, 
GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  "OWNER" AND 
"MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE 
POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY 
TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR 
ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY 
THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER 
MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.

Yahoo! Groups Links

RE: [Digital BW] Artifacts with Digital images

2005-07-03 by Richard

> -----Original Message-----
> From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jeff
> Medkeff
> Sent: Sunday, July 03, 2005 2:57 AM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Artifacts with Digital images
> 
> 
> 
> Richard wrote:
> 
> 
> > On the basis of what you have claimed below, can we assume a single bit
> chip
> > 24x36mm would be the ultimate?
> 
> The ultimate what? A single bit would give you two values, dark and
> bright. So obviously that would not be very useful unless you were
> looking to replace lith film, and even then there are easier ways.

I'll stick with Lith I think although one has to be careful putting in the
sprocket holes.

Richard


---
[This E-mail has been scanned for viruses but it is your responsibility 
to maintain up to date anti virus software on the device that you are
currently using to read this email. ]

Re: [Digital BW] Artifacts with Digital images

2005-07-03 by Ernst Dinkla

4 exposures, the sensor shifted half a pixel (well) can increase the 
resolution without increasing the noise. The MF digital backs have that 
feature and can go beyond 4x. Their size is already above full frame 35 
mm, well size relatively big. The Horseman bodies allow the use of MF 
digital backs + Nikon 35 mm lenses.

The same is more or less done in the Epson flatbeds and Nikon film 
scanners, several RGB sensors with wider wells placed after another at 
distances from one another interfering with the well distances that give 
a higher sampling rate than one sensor with the same wells wouldn't allow.

So there's another solution to break the fixed sensor size - resolution 
- well size dilemma. Takes time and motion.

I expected an addition to the Anti Shake sensor in Konica Minolta 
cameras that would exploit that idea as well.

The information obtained from high resolution/smaller sensors is getting 
better too. The dynamic range of the Fuji E550 / E10, the better quality 
of the 7MP compacts compared to the earlier 8MP compacts suggest that 
this will improve the information of larger sensors as well.

Ernst

Re: [Digital BW] Artifacts with Digital images

2005-07-03 by Clayton Jones

Hello Jeff,

>Paul, here's some stuff, much of which is pasted from lecture 
>outlines for an introductory class I teach. Much regarding 
>responsivity, noise, and dynamic range, but very long:

Thank you very much for such a clear and understandable explanation. 
It answers many questions that have never been satisfied by other
sources that present complex formulas, graphs and verbiage that are
meaningless to non-engineers.  There are many of us who don't have
engineering backgrounds but do want some understanding of the
technology we are using.  This is a very satisfying read.

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Re: [Digital BW] Artifacts with Digital images

2005-07-03 by Steve Kale

Jeff 

Thanks for this.  I am interested in hearing a more direct retort to the
material on Normen's site (I have previously posted the link).  As I read
it, he is quite clear that a greater bit depth provides greater dynamic
range (measured in f-stops or whatever).  He notes, as you do, that noise
affects the "bottom end" of the range and that noise is highly correlated to
pixel size.  (It goes without saying that we would all prefer more larger
pixels, appropriately cooled of course, but digital camera/digital back
design is constrained by both economics and the need to fit current lens
format dynamics.)  But I hear you saying that for a given noise level and
given pixel size, more bit depth makes no difference.  Can you expand on
this a little and if possible correct the information, or my understanding
of the information, on Normen's site.  I suspect the "line of difference"
(so-to-speak) lies somewhere in his assumption "that the darkest useable
zone has 8 levels" and that the number of useable levels is affected by bit
depth, ie he is talking about the limitations imposed by engineering
decisions which affect things post photon capture: that once one have
determined the "size of the well" the ultimately delivered dynamic range is
still affected by bit depth whereas you would say this is not true and that
increasing bit depth is of no value.

Thanks

Steve
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> From: Jeff Medkeff <medkeff@...>

> <snip>
> A photosite responding to a photon produces an electron through the
> photoelectric effect. This electron typically gets captured in a
> potential well. (NB: When I say "potential," I mean voltage; when Normal
> Koren says it on that page that was quoted, he refers to that which is
> mathematically possible - this isn't apples and oranges, it is more like
> apples and duckbill platypuses.) The electrons get stored in what
> amounts to a little capacitor right on the sensor. Electrons sitting
> around in this potential well, which do not belong there because they
> came from somewhere other than photons, constitutes noise.
> 
> So the dynamic range of the sensor is defined at the low end by noise -
> spurious electrons hanging out in the potential well (plus amplifier
> static contributed during readout). You have to pick a statistical
> significance that constitutes non-black - "real" black might be defined
> as (say) anything below 25 sigma in the image that gets read out.
> 
> At the high end, the dynamic range of the sensor is defined by clipping.
> A certain number of electrons can be stored in the potential well. If
> you go above that number, the potential (=voltage) gets high enough that
> some electrons find other ways off the sensor than through the readout
> circuits. A capacitor can only hold so much juice.
> 
> If the maximum number of electrons the well can hold is 1,000 (we'll use
> a conveniently small, entirely made-up number), then if you put 1,000
> electrons in the well you read out white. If you try to put 1,001
> electrons in it, you read out white. If you try to fill it with 2,000
> electrons you still get white. The useful dynamic range is between the
> noise floor and the potential well's clipping point.
> 
> Big photosites have big wells. They can store more electrons than a
> small photosite with a small well. But they don't generate any
> additional noise. So the white point gets brighter; the black point
> stays the same. If you are saying to yourself that it sounds like this
> is one way to increase dynamic range, you are right.
> <snip>
>
> <snip>
> 
> Once the exposure is over, the signal is read out. The potential
> (=voltage) in the well is amplified; the amplifier output is sent to an
> analog-to-digital converter. Most ADCs on digital cameras output 12
> bits. So the ADC outputs 4096 analog-to-digital units (ADUs). This gets
> recorded in your raw file.
> 
> The big myth in dynamic range discussions is that somehow, if only you
> could change those ADUs to give you more bits, you'd have more dynamic
> range. Unfortunately the ADUs operate after image capture - they can
> have no effect on the white clipping point of the photosite well.
> 
> Now to be fair, there is a reason for the irrational conclusion that
> bits equals dynamic range: A camera with a larger dynamic range
> *requires* more ADUs to properly sample the signal. Therefore cameras
> with higher dynamic range tend to, on average, output more bits.
> 
> Think of it this way. If you are sampling a brightness ratio of ten, and
> you have 4096 ADUs to do it with, the difference between two adjacent
> ADUs is a ratio of 1.0024. In other words, a part of the scene producing
> an ADU of 100 is 1.002 times brighter than a part of the scene producing
> an ADU of 101. Let's consider this a "small" difference. You can take a
> picture full of subtle tonal differences, and really define a texture
> (like an egg, say) with such a camera.
> 
> If, however, you are sampling a brightness ratio of 100 with 4096 ADUs,
> then the step ratio is (predictably) 1.024. In this new situation there
> is a big real-world brightness difference between a pixel value of 100
> and a pixel value of 101. This leads to posterization; you aren't
> recording enough brightness differences to define a surface. Therefore,
> (most) makers of sensors that have a big dynamic range (usually) provide
> more ADUs in output. Photographers tend to reduce this to the formula
> that the more bits a camera outputs, the more dynamic range it has.
> Unfortunately, using that formula to choose a camera can burn you badly,
> because there are a number of exceptions to the rule. Some cameras
> merely sample a poor dynamic range with excessive precision.
> 
> Now, is all this merely theoretical? No. Much of it can lead to better
> decisions at exposure time and camera-purchase time, just as knowledge
> of tone curves and spectral response of film helps the analog
> photographer at exposure time and film-purchase time. Tone curves and
> spectral response are pretty arcane topics in themselves - many
> beginners succumb to mistaken thinking on these topics. The digital
> medium is different, but no more arcane. Perhaps it is true that
> awareness of its technical underpinnings has not penetrated the
> conventional photographic world very effectively as yet.
> 
> --
> Jeff Medkeff
> Eagle River, Alaska

Re: [Digital BW] Artifacts with Digital images

2005-07-03 by Steve Kale

As a point of clarification, I believe what concerns the user most is the
usable dynamic range delivered by the camera - not the dynamic range of the
sensor ignoring all other aspects.  I have always found it puzzling that
Canon has not moved to delivering the user 16 bits and had always assumed
that the issue was processing speed.  Many (most?) Canon 35mm users are
concerned about speed, at least much more so that someone using a digital
back, and hence this is an important consideration for Canon as they design
their cameras.  So, given their optical system/format, they have a
constraint on sensor size, from which they manage a set of tradeoffs
including "resolution", pixel size, noise and processing speed to name just
a few.  The question that concerns my original post is whether or not, all
else being equal, an increase in bit depth provides greater usable dynamic
range to the user.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> From: Steve Kale <stevekale@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 12:49:33 +0100
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Artifacts with Digital images
> 
> Jeff 
> 
> Thanks for this.  I am interested in hearing a more direct retort to the
> material on Normen's site (I have previously posted the link).  As I read
> it, he is quite clear that a greater bit depth provides greater dynamic
> range (measured in f-stops or whatever).  He notes, as you do, that noise
> affects the "bottom end" of the range and that noise is highly correlated to
> pixel size.  (It goes without saying that we would all prefer more larger
> pixels, appropriately cooled of course, but digital camera/digital back
> design is constrained by both economics and the need to fit current lens
> format dynamics.)  But I hear you saying that for a given noise level and
> given pixel size, more bit depth makes no difference.  Can you expand on
> this a little and if possible correct the information, or my understanding
> of the information, on Normen's site.  I suspect the "line of difference"
> (so-to-speak) lies somewhere in his assumption "that the darkest useable
> zone has 8 levels" and that the number of useable levels is affected by bit
> depth, ie he is talking about the limitations imposed by engineering
> decisions which affect things post photon capture: that once one have
> determined the "size of the well" the ultimately delivered dynamic range is
> still affected by bit depth whereas you would say this is not true and that
> increasing bit depth is of no value.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Steve

RE: [Digital BW] Artifacts with Digital images

2005-07-03 by Paul D. DeRocco

> From: Steve Kale
>
> As a point of clarification, I believe what concerns the user most is the
> usable dynamic range delivered by the camera - not the dynamic
> range of the
> sensor ignoring all other aspects.  I have always found it puzzling that
> Canon has not moved to delivering the user 16 bits and had always assumed
> that the issue was processing speed.

<snip>

> The question that concerns my original post is whether or not, all
> else being equal, an increase in bit depth provides greater usable dynamic
> range to the user.

It won't. The extra bits will be utter garbage.

I did some rigorous tests on my old Minolta DiMage 7 camera, which has an
uncompressed raw format, making it easy to manipulate in software. Its
sensor, under the best (broad daylight) conditions has eight bits of dynamic
range, because masking off the bottom four (out of 12) bits of the raw data
made absolutely no visible difference in the image. I'd say that my Canon
10D has about ten bits, based on the ratio of noise levels, so increasing
the A/D resolution beyond 12 bits would be useless. And if 12 bits is two
more than necessary in the 10D, I doubt there are any DSLRs out there yet
that really need more than 12.

--

Ciao,               Paul D. DeRocco
Paul                mailto:pderocco@...

RE: [Digital BW] Artifacts with Digital images

2005-07-03 by Elwood Spedden

It depends. For a given number of pixels the
additional surface area of a full frame (24X36mm)
sensor would provide a larger pixel and thus better
signal to noise (all other things being equal). But
the camera makers are in a race for megapixels based
on the marketing value of winning that race. Thus
Canon, who have a full frame sensor have opted for
16.7 megapixels i.e. pixel sites where Nikon, with an
APC size sensor have limited to 12.4mpx. MF makers
such as Hasselblad and Mamiya have even larger sensors
but are stuffing 22.5mpx onto them. Dalsa is building
the sensors for Mamiya and Dalsa have peltier cooled
sensors in use for the motion picture industry. So
they have the technology to make a difference but
given price premium that would be required it is very
unlikely (IMHO) that techology will trickle down to
still cameras.

woody

--- Richard <richard@...-bulldog.com> wrote:


---------------------------------
On the basis of what you have claimed below, can we
assume a single bit chip
24x36mm would be the ultimate?

Richard

> -----Original Message-----
> From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
>
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of Jeff
> Medkeff
> Sent: Saturday, July 02, 2005 10:32 PM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Artifacts with Digital
images
> 
> 
> 
> Steve Kale wrote:
> 
> 
> > Yes I guess this is a bit off this topic but there
is an interesting
> > discussion here from which I conclude we want
greater bit depth and
> lower
> > noise
> 
> Amen to that.
> 
> 
> > All
> > else being equal (including noise), greater bit
depth increases dynamic
> > range.
> 
> No, that's just not correct. Sorry, it is not my
intention to be merely
> contentious; I think this is an important user issue
with respect to
> digital cameras. All greater bit depth gives you is
better (finer)
> sampling of the dynamic range the sensor can sense.
> 
> If you take a Kodak test strip - one with "black" at
one end, "white" at
> the other, and a bunch of grays in between - you
could slice that up
> into 8 equal pieces with an x-acto knife, or you
could slice it up into
> 12 equal pieces. Although the size of the pieces
gets smaller, your top
> and bottom ends remain the same no matter which you
do.
> 
> This is analogous to what is happening in a digital
camera - well
> potential is being amplified and sent through an
analog-to-digital
> converter. You could have that converter output in
eight bits, ten,
> twelve, or fifty, but changing ADCs would *never*
change the potential
> in the well. The only thing you change with bit
depth is the tonal
> "distance" between steps. Remember these sensors are
linear, unlike film!
> 
> It is more correct to say that all other things
being equal, greater
> photosite size increases dynamic range. The rubber
meets the road for
> photographers when choosing a camera; there isn't
much relevance to this
> at exposure time when you are already committed.
Paul's 8 megapixel XT
> is a great camera. But it and its brother the 20D
both have less -
> considerably less - dynamic range than Canon's 1D
mark II. The 1D II
> does not read out more bits, nor does it have more
pixels, nor is it
> lower in intrinsic noise. What it has are larger
photosites.
> 
> OTOH when shooting a scene with a large dynamic
range, then you want as
> many bits as you can come by - I don't dispute this.
This isn't because
> it lets you record more range before blowing the
highlights or burying
> the low end in mud; it is because you want all the
flexibility you can
> get when you pull that range to the gamut of an
output device and start
> to put tree trunks in the histogram. This is a
separate issue.
> 
> All this is measurable. Don't take my word for it;
if dynamic range is
> important to you, it is a pretty easy job to compare
the dynamic range
> of different cameras to an adopted level of the
signal's statistical
> significance.
> 
> 
>  > This is a big "sales point" for the digital backs
that are true 16
> > bit.
> 
> The digital backs have greater dynamic range, but
this is not a result
> of their bit depth. Rather the reverse is true -
they *need* to sample
> with more bits due to the greater dynamic range; if
they did not, the
> flux differences between adjacent ADU's would
eventually grow large
> enough to appear posterized even in the
unmanipulated, linear image.
> Somewhere around here I've got images read out from
engineering grade
> sensors that show just this effect, using 35mu
photosites and 8 bit ADCs.
> 
> --
> Jeff Medkeff
> Eagle River, Alaska
> 


---
[This E-mail has been scanned for viruses but it is
your responsibility 
to maintain up to date anti virus software on the
device that you are
currently using to read this email. ]



Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files,
and other resources as they are often being updated.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily
digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your
Membership preferences by visiting this same page.

Please follow these basic guidelines:
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of
earlier messages to keep them short.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal
attacks or flames. Hostile, aggressive or
argumentative users may be removed from the membership
without notice.
- Keep your posts and threads related to the group
topic of digital B&W printing. Users who persistently
make off-topic posts may be removed from the
membership.
- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the
group rules and guidelines, and to abide by the
actions and decisions of the group Owner and
Moderators. See \ufffdGroup Topic, Rules and Guidelines\ufffd in
the Files section:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/

BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE
DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY
UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE \ufffdOWNER\ufffd AND \ufffdMODERATORS\ufffd
OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE
LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL,
SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING
BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS,
GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN
IF THE  \ufffdOWNER\ufffd AND \ufffdMODERATORS\ufffd OF DIGITAL BW, THE
PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY
OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE
INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO
GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF
YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR
CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE
PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING
TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.


    
    
---------------------------------
  YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS

  
    Visit your group "DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint" on
the web.
   
    To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:

DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
   
    Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
Terms of Service.

  
---------------------------------

RE: [Digital BW] Artifacts with Digital images

2005-07-03 by John Moody

Paul,
That sounds reasonable; I can see how a well-exposed image could look
identical to one with off the bottom 4 of 12 bits chopped off.
Where more bits might be useful, is when heavy manipulations of gamma, etc.
are performed for artistic reasons, or maybe to salvage an image that was
executed poorly.  Not too long ago, a musician that we fancy unexpectedly
walked up to my wife and asked how she liked the show.  I had a few seconds
to fire up the 1Ds and grab a shot.  I screwed up, and the flash did not go
off, opportunity gone.  When I pulled up the raw file, I was shocked that I
could get a very usable image from it.  If the RAW file had 8-bit
resolution, I'll bet the corrections would have posterized it.  Specifically
for BW, ask a leading radiologist to review 8-bit scanned x-ray film; you
will not get a warm response.

This discussion is much like audio, some see it, some don't, some don't
care, but over time improvements _are_ made.  Twenty years ago, who would
have thought that printing to paper could benefit from more than 256 levels;
but we are making those evaluations now, with some acceptance that it
matters.

Best regards,
John Moody
Show quoted textHide quoted text
-----Original Message-----
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Paul D.
DeRocco
Sent: Sunday, July 03, 2005 9:23 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Artifacts with Digital images

> From: Steve Kale
>
> As a point of clarification, I believe what concerns the user most is the
> usable dynamic range delivered by the camera - not the dynamic
> range of the
> sensor ignoring all other aspects.  I have always found it puzzling that
> Canon has not moved to delivering the user 16 bits and had always assumed
> that the issue was processing speed.

<snip>

> The question that concerns my original post is whether or not, all
> else being equal, an increase in bit depth provides greater usable dynamic
> range to the user.

It won't. The extra bits will be utter garbage.

I did some rigorous tests on my old Minolta DiMage 7 camera, which has an
uncompressed raw format, making it easy to manipulate in software. Its
sensor, under the best (broad daylight) conditions has eight bits of dynamic
range, because masking off the bottom four (out of 12) bits of the raw data
made absolutely no visible difference in the image. I'd say that my Canon
10D has about ten bits, based on the ratio of noise levels, so increasing
the A/D resolution beyond 12 bits would be useless. And if 12 bits is two
more than necessary in the 10D, I doubt there are any DSLRs out there yet
that really need more than 12.

--

Ciao,               Paul D. DeRocco
Paul                mailto:pderocco@...




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Artifacts with Digital images

2005-07-03 by dfaprinting

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Elwood Spedden 
<elwood@w...> wrote:
>mDalsa is building
> the sensors for Mamiya and Dalsa have peltier cooled
> sensors in use for the motion picture industry.

Thanks, I forgot about that type of sensor.

I think one of the big reasons that cooling for normal still cameras 
hasn't been used is there is relatively little need. Think how often 
the sensor is really working. The duty cycle is normally very low, so 
the heat doesn't have a chance to build like it does in a device that 
has to capture in a continous fashion like for motion pictures. But I 
do think there may be some small gains in cooling the still oriented 
ccd, just that there isn't a real good way to accomplish this for the 
compact (35mm body) cameras. Shouldn't be any real limitations for 
most of the capture backs, price is certainly not much of an issue. 
And yes I know that most of the cost is from the larger sensor, it 
costs a fortune to make such large pieces of silcon without flaws, 
and then factor in the number of units that will be purchased.

Re: [Digital BW] Artifacts with Digital images

2005-07-03 by Stephen M Martin

Can you explain how you do this? 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Jeff Medkeff 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Saturday, July 02, 2005 6:36 PM
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Artifacts with Digital images


  . So dark noise on that camera gets significant 
  after several minutes of exposure time. I'm more concerned about photon 
  noise until out past five minutes or so, at which point I start to apply 
  calibration frames to my images to deal with dark and bias noise.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Artifacts with Digital images

2005-07-03 by Roy Harrington

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Jeff Medkeff <medkeff@g...> 
wrote:
....

> 
> Think of it this way. If you are sampling a brightness ratio of ten, and 
> you have 4096 ADUs to do it with, the difference between two adjacent 
> ADUs is a ratio of 1.0024. In other words, a part of the scene producing 
> an ADU of 100 is 1.002 times brighter than a part of the scene producing 
> an ADU of 101. Let's consider this a "small" difference. You can take a 
> picture full of subtle tonal differences, and really define a texture 
> (like an egg, say) with such a camera.
> 
> If, however, you are sampling a brightness ratio of 100 with 4096 ADUs, 
> then the step ratio is (predictably) 1.024. In this new situation there 
> is a big real-world brightness difference between a pixel value of 100 
> and a pixel value of 101. This leads to posterization; you aren't 
> recording enough brightness differences to define a surface. Therefore, 
> (most) makers of sensors that have a big dynamic range (usually) provide 
> more ADUs in output. Photographers tend to reduce this to the formula 
> that the more bits a camera outputs, the more dynamic range it has. 
> Unfortunately, using that formula to choose a camera can burn you badly, 
> because there are a number of exceptions to the rule. Some cameras 
> merely sample a poor dynamic range with excessive precision.
...
> 
> --
> Jeff Medkeff
> Eagle River, Alaska

Jeff,

I'm curious about this last couple of paragraphs.  You've referred to
the ADU's as producing output that is spaced in equal ratio -- i.e.

> the difference between two adjacent 
> ADUs is a ratio of 1.0024. In other words, a part of the scene producing 
> an ADU of 100 is 1.002 times brighter than a part of the scene producing 
> an ADU of 101. 

Seems to me this would imply an exponential relationship between the
light energy input and the digital values from the A/D.   But I thought there
was a linear relationship from the photon energy to the voltage out to the
raw A/D values.  -- We later apply a gamma (expontial function) to the raw data
in order get that exponential relationship that we really want.

Roy

Re: [Digital BW] Artifacts with Digital images

2005-07-03 by Jeff Medkeff

Stephen M Martin wrote:


> Can you explain how you do this? 

You are going to hate me for this....

The cheapest/easiest way to do this to raw images from Canon and Nikon 
cameras is to get a hold of this freeware:

http://www.astrosurf.org/buil/us/iris/iris.htm

The instructions provide a method to subtract bias and flat frames 
before Bayer interpolation, which is when (ideally) you really want to 
do it. The learning curve for this software will likely seem fairly 
steep. If you get the software and find you need to know how to generate 
the calibration frames to begin with, I'd be happy to explain.

--
Jeff Medkeff
Eagle River, Alaska

Re: [Digital BW] Artifacts with Digital images

2005-07-03 by Jeff Medkeff

Roy Harrington wrote:


> Seems to me this would imply an exponential relationship between the
> light energy input and the digital values from the A/D.   But I thought there
> was a linear relationship from the photon energy to the voltage out to the
> raw A/D values.

It depends on how you define "brightness." But you are correct, these 
sensors are (nearly) linear. My account is an oversimplification meant 
to introduce the concept of dynamic range in a scene being defined 
according to incidence.

--
Jeff Medkeff
Eagle River, Alaska

Re: [Digital BW] Artifacts with Digital images

2005-07-03 by Jeff Medkeff

Steve Kale wrote:


> that once one have
> determined the "size of the well" the ultimately delivered dynamic range is
> still affected by bit depth whereas you would say this is not true and that
> increasing bit depth is of no value.

I say that increasing bit depth beyond N bits is of no value, *unless* 
the sensor dynamic range is so great that N bits isn't a sufficiently 
fine sample of that range.

I say that there is no *inherent* advantage to adding bits beyond a 
certain number, unless other sensor attributes are *also* modified so as 
to take advantage of it.




Some thought experiments that might illuminate my thinking on this:

If, like Paul DeRocco reports, you can drop bits from your raw file and 
not see the values change, you are clearly outputting more bits than are 
significant. Does adding bits to this camera increase dynamic range? No; 
it only increases the number of bits you can drop without ruining the image.

If you have a perfect, noise-free camera that samples a ten stop DR in 
12 bits, and you increase that to sampling 16 bits, does this improve 
dynamic range? No. You get some sweet (high sample resolution) sampling 
in the shadows, but your sensor still only senses 10 stops.

If you have a perfect, noise-free camera that samples a ten stop DR in 
12 bits, and you increase that to 16 bits (max 65,535 ADUs) BUT white is 
still 4096 ADU's, does that increase dynamic range? No - it just gives 
you four bits you can truncate from your raw file without ruining the 
image (we're back to Paul DeRocco's camera again).

The number of electrons (stored in the photosite well) per 12-bit ADU in 
many cameras is very small - perhaps as few as a dozen electrons per ADU 
in some cameras. So if you add one bit, you will then be sampling six 
electrons per ADU (you don't magically get more electrons to sample, 
just because you've added one bit of resolution to the ADCs - the number 
of electrons in the well stays the same, and you are just sampling them 
with more dynamic resolution). Add one more bit, and you are sampling 
three electrons per ADU. One more bit, and you are sampling 1.5 
electrons per ADU. One more bit, and you are sampling 0.75 electrons per 
ADU.

At what point does adding bits gain you nothing? Even in a noise-free 
camera, sampling 0.75 of an electron is going to be a neat trick, right?


> I am interested in hearing a more direct retort to the
> material on Normen's site  ...

I don't think I have one for you, mostly for the reason you identify. 
Norman appears to me to be discussing what has to happen to the image at 
and after digital conversion in order to make that image look natural or 
good. I don't find error in anything he writes, but I'm not expert in 
that field.

I'm discussing the analog attributes a sensor must have in order to be 
physically capable of sensing a scene of high dynamic range without 
clipping. I have not made comments that are relevant once things have 
gone through the analog-to-digital converter.

That's why I say that Norman and I are discussing apples and duckbilled 
platypuses.

--
Jeff Medkeff
Eagle River, Alaska

Re: [Digital BW] Artifacts with Digital images

2005-07-03 by Roy Harrington

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Jeff Medkeff <medkeff@g...> 
wrote:
> 
> 
> Roy Harrington wrote:
> 
> 
> > Seems to me this would imply an exponential relationship between the
> > light energy input and the digital values from the A/D.   But I thought there
> > was a linear relationship from the photon energy to the voltage out to the
> > raw A/D values.
> 
> It depends on how you define "brightness." But you are correct, these 
> sensors are (nearly) linear. My account is an oversimplification meant 
> to introduce the concept of dynamic range in a scene being defined 
> according to incidence.
> 
> --
> Jeff Medkeff
> Eagle River, Alaska

Ok.  I think it's interesting to note that it is specifically the mathematics of
the linear A/D data representing the ratio of the dynamic range 
that gives rise to the need for more bits to get more dynamic range.
E.G. with a 12 bit integer value the biggest ratio you can represent is 4096/1.
If you want a larger dynamic range ratio than 4096 you have to have more bits.

Roy

RE: [Digital BW] Artifacts with Digital images

2005-07-03 by Richard

> -----Original Message-----
> From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Paul D.
> DeRocco
> Sent: Sunday, July 03, 2005 2:23 PM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Artifacts with Digital images


I doubt there are any DSLRs out there yet
> that really need more than 12.

In other words you are saying there can be no development beyond 12 bits are
you. Come, come, we are an old stick-in-the-mud then.

Richard


---
[This E-mail has been scanned for viruses but it is your responsibility 
to maintain up to date anti virus software on the device that you are
currently using to read this email. ]

Re: [Digital BW] Artifacts with Digital images

2005-07-03 by Jeff Medkeff

Roy Harrington wrote:


> E.G. with a 12 bit integer value the biggest ratio you can represent is 4096/1.
> If you want a larger dynamic range ratio than 4096 you have to have more bits.

The biggest ADU *ratio* you can represent is 4096/1. But the actual 
dynamic range this ratio represents depends on the number of electrons 
per ADU.

For example, isn't ten electrons per ADU (=0 to 40,960 electrons) a 
smaller dynamic range than 100 electrons per ADU (=0 to 409,600 electrons)?

Another way of saying this is at what electrical potential does the ADC 
output 2048 ADUs? Would that be 10 millivolts? 50 millivolts? And how 
much is the well potential amplified, anyway?

Without *also* having this data, you do not know how much dynamic range 
is represented by a given ratio. I'm all for increasing the ratio. But 
I'd like to see the dynamic range detectable by the sensors increase, too.

--
Jeff Medkeff
Eagle River, Alaska

Re: [Digital BW] Artifacts with Digital images

2005-07-03 by Roy Harrington

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Jeff Medkeff <medkeff@g...> 
wrote:
> 
> 
> Roy Harrington wrote:
> 
> 
> > E.G. with a 12 bit integer value the biggest ratio you can represent is 4096/1.
> > If you want a larger dynamic range ratio than 4096 you have to have more bits.
> 
> The biggest ADU *ratio* you can represent is 4096/1. But the actual 
> dynamic range this ratio represents depends on the number of electrons 
> per ADU.
> 
> For example, isn't ten electrons per ADU (=0 to 40,960 electrons) a 
> smaller dynamic range than 100 electrons per ADU (=0 to 409,600 electrons)?

No, they are the same.  Dynamic range is the ratio of the largest / smallest
distinguishable value.   So 40,960 / 10 = 409,600 / 100 = 4096.  It's
the linearity of the units (electrons, photons, millivolts) that allow to do the 
simple ratio.

> 
> Another way of saying this is at what electrical potential does the ADC 
> output 2048 ADUs? Would that be 10 millivolts? 50 millivolts? And how 
> much is the well potential amplified, anyway?

The actual millivolts don't matter -- its the ratio of the largest to the smallest.
The amplifier being linear makes no difference.

> 
> Without *also* having this data, you do not know how much dynamic range 
> is represented by a given ratio. I'm all for increasing the ratio. But 
> I'd like to see the dynamic range detectable by the sensors increase, too.

Basically you increase the sensor dynamic range by either: reducing the noise
at the low end and/or increasing the clip point at the high end.   The bits of
the A/D have to fine enough to take advantage of the reduced noise at the
low end and coarse enough to not get clipped at the high end.

Roy
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> 
> --
> Jeff Medkeff
> Eagle River, Alaska

RE: [Digital BW] Artifacts with Digital images

2005-07-03 by Paul D. DeRocco

> From: Richard
>
> In other words you are saying there can be no development beyond
> 12 bits are
> you. Come, come, we are an old stick-in-the-mud then.

No, I'm only saying that the DSLRs out there (not the liquid cooled things
used on telescopes) haven't yet exceeded 12 bits of S/N. They probably will
in the foreseeable future.

--

Ciao,               Paul D. DeRocco
Paul                mailto:pderocco@...

RE: [Digital BW] Artifacts with Digital images

2005-07-03 by Paul D. DeRocco

> From: Roy Harrington
>
> Ok.  I think it's interesting to note that it is specifically the
> mathematics of
> the linear A/D data representing the ratio of the dynamic range
> that gives rise to the need for more bits to get more dynamic range.
> E.G. with a 12 bit integer value the biggest ratio you can
> represent is 4096/1.
> If you want a larger dynamic range ratio than 4096 you have to
> have more bits.

That's not entirely true. It's certainly true for a single pixel, but the
eye doesn't see only individual pixels, it sees areas of similar pixels as
solid colors. Since there's always noise, you can see in-between values by
averaging across many pixels. That's basically what dithering is.

--

Ciao,               Paul D. DeRocco
Paul                mailto:pderocco@...

RE: [Digital BW] Artifacts with Digital images

2005-07-04 by Paul Roark

> 
> 
> >I doubt there are any DSLRs out there yet that really need more than 12.
> 


> In other words you are saying there can be no development beyond 12 bits
> are you. Come, come, ...

Then again, I'm a pragmatist.  I'm not going to wait for a sensor
breakthrough.  I can live with 12 bits as long as my image range fits the
range of the sensor.  That's what the old timers did before graded paper.
So, I'll just tune the system, like the old zone system, so that happens.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Re: [Digital BW] Artifacts with Digital images

2005-07-04 by Roy Harrington

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul D. DeRocco" 
<pderocco@i...> wrote:
> > From: Roy Harrington
> >
> > Ok.  I think it's interesting to note that it is specifically the
> > mathematics of
> > the linear A/D data representing the ratio of the dynamic range
> > that gives rise to the need for more bits to get more dynamic range.
> > E.G. with a 12 bit integer value the biggest ratio you can
> > represent is 4096/1.
> > If you want a larger dynamic range ratio than 4096 you have to
> > have more bits.
> 
> That's not entirely true. It's certainly true for a single pixel, but the
> eye doesn't see only individual pixels, it sees areas of similar pixels as
> solid colors. Since there's always noise, you can see in-between values by
> averaging across many pixels. That's basically what dithering is.
> 
> --
> 
> Ciao,               Paul D. DeRocco
> Paul                mailto:pderocco@i...

True, but I'm not sure if that ought to play a part in the dynamic range of
the sensor and the bits needed in the A/D to represent that range.  But in
any case you will need to add 1 bit each time you increase the dynamic
range by a factor of 2.

Here's another way to look at it.  At the low end say the A/D is distinguishing between
a value of 1 and 2.  No matter how many samples you average together you'll
get either 1 or 2 since it's integer math.  This is quite different than in the upper
range.  E.g. say you are distinguishing between 100100 and 100200 where the
bottom 2 digits are in the noise.  If you average 10 samples you'll be close to being
able to distinguish 100140 and 100150.  The point being that if its in the bottom
bit the multiple-sample noise reduction doesn't get represented.

Roy

RE: [Digital BW] Artifacts with Digital images

2005-07-04 by Paul D. DeRocco

> From: Roy Harrington
>
> Here's another way to look at it.  At the low end say the A/D is
> distinguishing between
> a value of 1 and 2.  No matter how many samples you average
> together you'll
> get either 1 or 2 since it's integer math.  This is quite
> different than in the upper
> range.  E.g. say you are distinguishing between 100100 and 100200
> where the
> bottom 2 digits are in the noise.  If you average 10 samples
> you'll be close to being
> able to distinguish 100140 and 100150.  The point being that if
> its in the bottom
> bit the multiple-sample noise reduction doesn't get represented.

The averaging I'm talking about takes place in your eye or brain. Across a
large number of pixels, even if the pixels are all 1's and 2's, you can
still represent in-between values like 1.5 or 1.123, by varying the
proportion of 1's and 2's. You just can't do it for an individual pixel. For
that to work, however, there has to be enough noise to cause dithering,
i.e., to break up any posterization.

Look at blue sky in any digital image, and it will look like a smooth blue
gradient. Zoom way in on it and it will look like blue confetti. As long as
you're not examining individual pixels, the dithering caused by the noise
effectively increases the bit depth. (That's why GIF images work at all.)
Unfortunately, for fine detail, you need those individual pixels, and that's
where the noise limits your dynamic range.

My point is that the dynamic range we're talking about is the dynamic range
for the highest spatial frequencies, where individual pixels matter. But for
low spatial frequencies, you automatically get more dynamic range, because
the noise is mostly high frequency.

--

Ciao,               Paul D. DeRocco
Paul                mailto:pderocco@...

Re: [Digital BW] Artifacts with Digital images

2005-07-04 by Roy Harrington

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul D. DeRocco" 
<pderocco@i...> wrote:
> > From: Roy Harrington
> >
> > Here's another way to look at it.  At the low end say the A/D is
> > distinguishing between
> > a value of 1 and 2.  No matter how many samples you average
> > together you'll
> > get either 1 or 2 since it's integer math.  This is quite
> > different than in the upper
> > range.  E.g. say you are distinguishing between 100100 and 100200
> > where the
> > bottom 2 digits are in the noise.  If you average 10 samples
> > you'll be close to being
> > able to distinguish 100140 and 100150.  The point being that if
> > its in the bottom
> > bit the multiple-sample noise reduction doesn't get represented.
> 
> The averaging I'm talking about takes place in your eye or brain. Across a
> large number of pixels, even if the pixels are all 1's and 2's, you can
> still represent in-between values like 1.5 or 1.123, by varying the
> proportion of 1's and 2's. You just can't do it for an individual pixel. For
> that to work, however, there has to be enough noise to cause dithering,
> i.e., to break up any posterization.
> 
> Look at blue sky in any digital image, and it will look like a smooth blue
> gradient. Zoom way in on it and it will look like blue confetti. As long as
> you're not examining individual pixels, the dithering caused by the noise
> effectively increases the bit depth. (That's why GIF images work at all.)
> Unfortunately, for fine detail, you need those individual pixels, and that's
> where the noise limits your dynamic range.
> 
> My point is that the dynamic range we're talking about is the dynamic range
> for the highest spatial frequencies, where individual pixels matter. But for
> low spatial frequencies, you automatically get more dynamic range, because
> the noise is mostly high frequency.
> 
> --
> 
> Ciao,               Paul D. DeRocco
> Paul                mailto:pderocco@i...

Feels like we've drifted a little from the subject.  My comment only had to do with
how the dynamic range of a sensor directly influenced how many bits you needed 
in the A/D and why -- that it is an integer arithmetic reason not a physics reason.

I think you are confusing dynamic range with smoothness or resolution of gray
values thoughout the scale.  Dynamic range is only a measure of how far apart
the darks shadows can be from the brightest highlights.  It's a matter of seeing
detail in shadows without blowing out the highlights.  Dynamic range is just
a ratio -- no more.

What you say about resolving smooth grays and averaging many pixels I totally
agree happens.  It just doesn't play a part in dynamic range.

What I think is a common fallacy is the logic:
1) More dynamic range  implies  more bit depth needed
2) More bit depth  implies  more gray values
Therefore:
More dynamic range is one and the same as more gray values.

This almost seems obviously true but in fact it isn't true.
(1) is only true because you need more bits to get the max/min larger
NOT so there are necessarily more distinguishable values in between.

Roy

Re: [Digital BW] Artifacts with Digital images

2005-07-04 by Jeff Medkeff

Roy Harrington wrote:



> Basically you increase the sensor dynamic range by either: reducing the noise
> at the low end and/or increasing the clip point at the high end.  The bits of
> the A/D have to fine enough to take advantage of the reduced noise at the
> low end and coarse enough to not get clipped at the high end.

It sounds to me as though we are approaching this from two different 
perspectives. When you say the bits have to be coarse enough to take 
advantage of reduced noise, and fine enough not to clip, it sounds to me 
as though you are saying something about the digital sampling of the 
signal being read off the sensor. And if I understand correctly you are 
dead right - there is no point to making the luminous flux density delta 
per ADU so coarse that the 100 (or whatever) highest ADU values all clip 
to white. Not only do you throw away values, but you also increase the 
chances of posterization in the resulting digital image.

You state correctly, above, that to increase sensor dynamic range, you 
can reduce noise. You also say you can increase the clip point at the 
high end. I'm familiar with using the term "clip" in reference to 
digital sampling, so it appears as though what you are saying is that to 
increase dynamic range you should take your highest ADU - 4096, say - 
and calibrate that to what is detected from a higher luminous intensity 
(luminous flux per unit solid angle) from a scene at a given EV. Maybe 
that is what you are suggesting, or maybe not - that's what I'm hearing.

Either way: Doing that won't work.

Well, I admit it will work in one special case: It will work when your 
sensor's highest ADU value represents a number of electrons that is less 
than the full well potential of the sensor. In your terms above, if the 
"bits of the A/D" are a bit beyond "fine enough," and are in fact too 
fine, then your digital image won't have the dynamic range it could have 
had if there were more bits available at the same sampling rate. By 
sampling rate, I mean electrons per ADU.

But if your highest ADU value already represents a number of electrons 
that is equal to the full well potential of the sensor, then adding bits 
at the *same* sampling rate buys you nothing. This would be too "coarse" 
sampling, as you put it, and all those added ADU values would be clipped.

Increasing the sampling rate (reducing electrons per ADU) while 
increasing bits *can* solve this clipping problem - and I'd like to have 
this in all my cameras. Unfortunately it will not result in greater 
dynamic range. The reason is that the maximum luminous intensity and the 
minimum noise recorded by the sensor are both limited at the analog stage.

The analog stage is mostly what I've been talking about. We are always, 
always, always limited by the photosite well. A well can hold between 
zero and n electrons. If you exceed n, and try to stuff n+x electrons 
into the well, an average of x electrons will be lost to other parts of 
the sensor. This is because the well achieves enough voltage to jump the 
resistant gap between it and another capacitor or some convenient path 
to ground. In either case, these electrons have overflowed their bucket, 
and are no longer present in the well when the sensor is read out.

In this situation the well is said to be "saturated." This sometimes 
results in blooming, but it does not result in clipping as I understand 
the term, because this has happened before any sampling of the well is 
made; there is no chance for the amplifier output to distort or the ADC 
to clip as these electrons never get there.

So a well can hold between 0 and n electrons. For a big well, n is a 
larger number; for a small well, n is a smaller number. Quantum 
efficiency determines how many electrons end up in the well, as a 
percentage of quanta of photons that are incident upon the photoelectric 
surface.

If the sensor QE is 50%, and 1k photons strike the sensor, then 500 
electrons (on average) are dumped into the photosite well. The number of 
photons striking the sensor is determined by the luminous intensity of 
the scene. So if we double the EV, we will have 2k photons striking the 
sensor and 1k electrons in the well. If we double it again, we'll have 
4k photons and 2k electrons.

Suppose the well capacity is 1k electrons. We've tried to stuff twice 
that many into the well. Half those electrons will find some other way 
out of the well, than through the readout amplifiers. Does adding bits 
to the sampling do anything to recover the lost 1k electrons?

The correct answer to this question is "no." The analog limitation of 
well depth is fundamental and exists because those lost electrons are 
not amplified and never affect the signal that the ADCs see.

And zero is a possible number of electrons in the well. This does not 
lend itself to useful representation with a proportion, which is 
probably one reason why dynamic range is specified on sensor spec sheets 
with luminous flux density and electrons of noise, rather than a ratio.

To increase the dynamic range of the sensor, we have to either reduce 
noise, or increase the saturation point of the well. The latter means 
increasing the number of electrons it can hold, because that correlates 
linearly with the maximum brightness in the scene that the sensor can 
usefully record.

What I originally started this discussion with, was a statement that 
photographers should beware the abuse of bit depth specifications. It 
does not always tell you anything about the ability to record the 
dynamic range of a scene, because no matter how many bits you have, the 
highest n ADUs could all be representing saturated photosite wells that 
contain no useful information about the scene you've just photographed. 
I think bit rate is going to be the next great digital camera scam, once 
everybody gets over the megapixel fetish - it already appears to be 
happening in the digital back realm.

--
Jeff Medkeff
Eagle River, Alaska

Re: [Digital BW] Artifacts with Digital images

2005-07-04 by Roy Harrington

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Jeff Medkeff <medkeff@g...> 
wrote:
> Roy Harrington wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> > Basically you increase the sensor dynamic range by either: reducing the noise
> > at the low end and/or increasing the clip point at the high end.  The bits of
> > the A/D have to fine enough to take advantage of the reduced noise at the
> > low end and coarse enough to not get clipped at the high end.
> 
> It sounds to me as though we are approaching this from two different 
> perspectives. When you say the bits have to be coarse enough to take 
> advantage of reduced noise, and fine enough not to clip, it sounds to me 
> as though you are saying something about the digital sampling of the 
> signal being read off the sensor. And if I understand correctly you are 
> dead right - there is no point to making the luminous flux density delta 
> per ADU so coarse that the 100 (or whatever) highest ADU values all clip 
> to white. Not only do you throw away values, but you also increase the 
> chances of posterization in the resulting digital image.
> 
> You state correctly, above, that to increase sensor dynamic range, you 
> can reduce noise. You also say you can increase the clip point at the 
> high end. I'm familiar with using the term "clip" in reference to 
> digital sampling, so it appears as though what you are saying is that to 
> increase dynamic range you should take your highest ADU - 4096, say - 
> and calibrate that to what is detected from a higher luminous intensity 
> (luminous flux per unit solid angle) from a scene at a given EV. Maybe 
> that is what you are suggesting, or maybe not - that's what I'm hearing.
> 
> Either way: Doing that won't work.
> 
> Well, I admit it will work in one special case: It will work when your 
> sensor's highest ADU value represents a number of electrons that is less 
> than the full well potential of the sensor. In your terms above, if the 
> "bits of the A/D" are a bit beyond "fine enough," and are in fact too 
> fine, then your digital image won't have the dynamic range it could have 
> had if there were more bits available at the same sampling rate. By 
> sampling rate, I mean electrons per ADU.
> 
> But if your highest ADU value already represents a number of electrons 
> that is equal to the full well potential of the sensor, then adding bits 
> at the *same* sampling rate buys you nothing. This would be too "coarse" 
> sampling, as you put it, and all those added ADU values would be clipped.
> 
> Increasing the sampling rate (reducing electrons per ADU) while 
> increasing bits *can* solve this clipping problem - and I'd like to have 
> this in all my cameras. Unfortunately it will not result in greater 
> dynamic range. The reason is that the maximum luminous intensity and the 
> minimum noise recorded by the sensor are both limited at the analog stage.
> 
> The analog stage is mostly what I've been talking about. We are always, 
> always, always limited by the photosite well. A well can hold between 
> zero and n electrons. If you exceed n, and try to stuff n+x electrons 
> into the well, an average of x electrons will be lost to other parts of 
> the sensor. This is because the well achieves enough voltage to jump the 
> resistant gap between it and another capacitor or some convenient path 
> to ground. In either case, these electrons have overflowed their bucket, 
> and are no longer present in the well when the sensor is read out.
> 
> In this situation the well is said to be "saturated." This sometimes 
> results in blooming, but it does not result in clipping as I understand 
> the term, because this has happened before any sampling of the well is 
> made; there is no chance for the amplifier output to distort or the ADC 
> to clip as these electrons never get there.
> 
> So a well can hold between 0 and n electrons. For a big well, n is a 
> larger number; for a small well, n is a smaller number. Quantum 
> efficiency determines how many electrons end up in the well, as a 
> percentage of quanta of photons that are incident upon the photoelectric 
> surface.
> 
> If the sensor QE is 50%, and 1k photons strike the sensor, then 500 
> electrons (on average) are dumped into the photosite well. The number of 
> photons striking the sensor is determined by the luminous intensity of 
> the scene. So if we double the EV, we will have 2k photons striking the 
> sensor and 1k electrons in the well. If we double it again, we'll have 
> 4k photons and 2k electrons.
> 
> Suppose the well capacity is 1k electrons. We've tried to stuff twice 
> that many into the well. Half those electrons will find some other way 
> out of the well, than through the readout amplifiers. Does adding bits 
> to the sampling do anything to recover the lost 1k electrons?
> 
> The correct answer to this question is "no." The analog limitation of 
> well depth is fundamental and exists because those lost electrons are 
> not amplified and never affect the signal that the ADCs see.
> 
> And zero is a possible number of electrons in the well. This does not 
> lend itself to useful representation with a proportion, which is 
> probably one reason why dynamic range is specified on sensor spec sheets 
> with luminous flux density and electrons of noise, rather than a ratio.
> 
> To increase the dynamic range of the sensor, we have to either reduce 
> noise, or increase the saturation point of the well. The latter means 
> increasing the number of electrons it can hold, because that correlates 
> linearly with the maximum brightness in the scene that the sensor can 
> usefully record.
> 
> What I originally started this discussion with, was a statement that 
> photographers should beware the abuse of bit depth specifications. It 
> does not always tell you anything about the ability to record the 
> dynamic range of a scene, because no matter how many bits you have, the 
> highest n ADUs could all be representing saturated photosite wells that 
> contain no useful information about the scene you've just photographed. 
> I think bit rate is going to be the next great digital camera scam, once 
> everybody gets over the megapixel fetish - it already appears to be 
> happening in the digital back realm.
> 
> --
> Jeff Medkeff
> Eagle River, Alaska

I think we are pretty much in agreement.   My coarse and fine terminology was
probably a little vague.

Like you said the analog well is the main determinant of dynamic range.  The
dynamic range is pretty simple to state at that level.  When I said ratio of the
max signal / min signal, max is just how many electrons fill the well i.e.
the saturation point or what I called the clipping point.  Any more signal (more
light or more electons) don't register in the well.  The min is not just the 
minimum number of electrons in the well.  As you noted 0 doesn't work well in
the denominator.  Min is the minimum number of electrons that you can read as
being the result of light hitting rather than just noise.  In other works it's the minimum
amount of signal that is distinguishable above the noise level.

So for example, if a well can contain 100,000 electrons when it's saturated and the
smallest number of electrons that indicates a signal is 100 electrons then the 
dynamic range = 100,000/100 or 1000-to-1.    If you had a larger well that could
contain 200,000 electrons but the noise level made it such that 200 electrons was
the smallest signal, both wells would have the same dynamic range.

On the digital side, matching the A/D to the first well would mean a 10-bit A/D
such that 0 matched 0 electrons, 1 matched 100 electrons, ... 1000 matched 100,000
electrons.  What I meant by "fine" enough is that you don't want the A/D to first
register a 1 with 200 electrons because you'd miss the 100 electron signal. On the other 
end it must be "coarse" enough not to max out the A/D value 1023 at 50,000 electrons
because you'd miss all the larger signals.  If you had less bits in the A/D you'd be
missing some signals and losing dyn.range and if you had more bits they wouldn't 
buy you any more dyn.range because the analog stage doesn't have any more to offer.  
The bit depth of 10 bits is sufficient and necessary to store the 1000-to-1 dyn.range.

The other aspect that I think tends to be mis-interpreted is that 100 electron
minimum distinguishable signal between 0 and 1 does NOT imply that you can
distinguish 100 electrons throughout the whole scale.  Although there are A/D
possible values 1000, 999, 998, ...  the noise level is probably a lot higher in
the 100,000 to 99,900 electron range.  If noise was 1% then the best you could
distinguish would be 1000,  990,  980, ...   So the fact that 10 bits = 1024 values
and can represent 1000-to-1 DR does not mean there are 1000 distinguishable grays.

Roy

Re: Artifacts with Digital images

2005-07-04 by kenstrain2000

> Then again, I'm a pragmatist.  I'm not going to wait for a sensor
> breakthrough.  I can live with 12 bits as long as my image range
fits the
> range of the sensor.  That's what the old timers did before graded
paper.
> So, I'll just tune the system, like the old zone system, so that
happens.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
Many of us take pictures of static subjects - then the simple way to
extend dynamic range is to take multiple shots with differing shutter
speed, then stack them into one image (for which I find Picture Window
Pro useful).  It is "easy" to get more range
than cameras will deliver in 5 years time - indeed more than can be
stored in a 16-bit file... Problem is that it gets even harder to
compress this range on to a print .... very complicated characteristic
curves take a long time to get right.  Strangely I've never found the
final print to be very much better than just the straight exposure,
but I'm sure that is my fault.

Similarly the cheap way to get more pixels for bigger prints (or
smaller artifacts) is to join multiple images (yesterday I took 10
pitcures, 8 were made from between 2 and 4 300D shots, total
processing about 1 hour, 5 printed).  Big advantage of this is the
lens appears better too (whereas more pixels in the camera don't help
much there).  In this case the pictures nearly always look better than
the single frames (and with some lenses effective depth of field can
be extended too, by careful focussing).  Speed is of the essence if
the light changes - 350/RebelXT is better than my 300D in this
respect.

The knowledge in this thread is fundamental to digital photography.

On some of the points that arose earlier:- 

From experiment it seems that the quantum efficiency figure of around
25% is about right, and with not-too-long exposures Canon (for
example) has done a great job in keeping amplifier/readout noise down
so that we can make use of the high QE, while not having to wait a
long time to read out each frame (the faster the readout the quieter
the amplifier needs to be to "read" the number of photons in the well
in time).  

The end result is that we see very low noise compared to film (QE<<1%)
of the same effective speed (by which I mean the ISO taking into
account relative frame size).  Another way to say this is that the
sensor noise for the whole image, samples into a given number of
pixels, is equivalent to film larger in area
by the ratio of QE (i.e. >25 times, or >5 times in linear measure).
 
The low noise allows us to sharpen images and obtain good contrast in
the mid-range of spatial frequencies in the image (more important in
real images than the extinction resolution - where film wins).  That
is why I love digital images. 

Of course the cost of flexibility is the need to understand what one
is doing to keep the process under control - in that sense it is
harder than with film, where choices were more limited.

Re: [Digital BW] Artifacts with Digital images

2005-07-04 by Steve Kale

Jeff

I understand, at least in layman's terms, this.  Let me then rephrase my
initial statement into a question:  do you feel that for a given Canon
sensor (say the 1Ds MK II sensor) there is anything to be gained from
increasing the bit depth of the ADC?  I, like Paul, am not going to wait for
a fundamental transform to occur in pixel design and understand that for a
given lens format there is a limit to effective sensor size and that within
that constraint we play off resolution against pixel size.  (I took the jump
to the 1Ds MK II because, rightly or wrongly, I thought that we had reached
close to the end of the pixel race in 35mm format - many more pixels within
the 35mm format constraint would lead to too small pixel wells and lower
dynamic range and likely increased noise.)  I was always puzzled, though,
particularly having read the digital tonality material on Normen's site, why
a camera manufacturer would not deliver 16 bits to the user and hence, as I
understand it, improve the usefulness (read "editability") of those dark
areas just above the noise threshold.  I understand that if you have a
bigger dynamic range at the sensor, say from a MF digital back with larger
pixel wells,  you are forced into a higher bit depth in the ADC because else
that range, particularly the low end, would more readily get torn apart by
the RAW converter and heavy editing.  But the question remains as to whether
12 is enough/optimal for current 35mm sensors and whether a significant
improvement in usefulness can be achieved by increasing bit depth to, say,
16.



Steve


(BTW an extension of your discussion is that as 645 sensors increase their
pixel count and reduce their pixel well size then they can reduce the bit
depth....I would be very surprised to see this happen.)
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> From: Jeff Medkeff <medkeff@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 22:18:18 -0800
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Artifacts with Digital images
> 
> Roy Harrington wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>> Basically you increase the sensor dynamic range by either: reducing the noise
>> at the low end and/or increasing the clip point at the high end.  The bits of
>> the A/D have to fine enough to take advantage of the reduced noise at the
>> low end and coarse enough to not get clipped at the high end.
> 
> It sounds to me as though we are approaching this from two different
> perspectives. When you say the bits have to be coarse enough to take
> advantage of reduced noise, and fine enough not to clip, it sounds to me
> as though you are saying something about the digital sampling of the
> signal being read off the sensor. And if I understand correctly you are
> dead right - there is no point to making the luminous flux density delta
> per ADU so coarse that the 100 (or whatever) highest ADU values all clip
> to white. Not only do you throw away values, but you also increase the
> chances of posterization in the resulting digital image.
> 
> You state correctly, above, that to increase sensor dynamic range, you
> can reduce noise. You also say you can increase the clip point at the
> high end. I'm familiar with using the term "clip" in reference to
> digital sampling, so it appears as though what you are saying is that to
> increase dynamic range you should take your highest ADU - 4096, say -
> and calibrate that to what is detected from a higher luminous intensity
> (luminous flux per unit solid angle) from a scene at a given EV. Maybe
> that is what you are suggesting, or maybe not - that's what I'm hearing.
> 
> Either way: Doing that won't work.
> 
> Well, I admit it will work in one special case: It will work when your
> sensor's highest ADU value represents a number of electrons that is less
> than the full well potential of the sensor. In your terms above, if the
> "bits of the A/D" are a bit beyond "fine enough," and are in fact too
> fine, then your digital image won't have the dynamic range it could have
> had if there were more bits available at the same sampling rate. By
> sampling rate, I mean electrons per ADU.
> 
> But if your highest ADU value already represents a number of electrons
> that is equal to the full well potential of the sensor, then adding bits
> at the *same* sampling rate buys you nothing. This would be too "coarse"
> sampling, as you put it, and all those added ADU values would be clipped.
> 
> Increasing the sampling rate (reducing electrons per ADU) while
> increasing bits *can* solve this clipping problem - and I'd like to have
> this in all my cameras. Unfortunately it will not result in greater
> dynamic range. The reason is that the maximum luminous intensity and the
> minimum noise recorded by the sensor are both limited at the analog stage.
> 
> The analog stage is mostly what I've been talking about. We are always,
> always, always limited by the photosite well. A well can hold between
> zero and n electrons. If you exceed n, and try to stuff n+x electrons
> into the well, an average of x electrons will be lost to other parts of
> the sensor. This is because the well achieves enough voltage to jump the
> resistant gap between it and another capacitor or some convenient path
> to ground. In either case, these electrons have overflowed their bucket,
> and are no longer present in the well when the sensor is read out.
> 
> In this situation the well is said to be "saturated." This sometimes
> results in blooming, but it does not result in clipping as I understand
> the term, because this has happened before any sampling of the well is
> made; there is no chance for the amplifier output to distort or the ADC
> to clip as these electrons never get there.
> 
> So a well can hold between 0 and n electrons. For a big well, n is a
> larger number; for a small well, n is a smaller number. Quantum
> efficiency determines how many electrons end up in the well, as a
> percentage of quanta of photons that are incident upon the photoelectric
> surface.
> 
> If the sensor QE is 50%, and 1k photons strike the sensor, then 500
> electrons (on average) are dumped into the photosite well. The number of
> photons striking the sensor is determined by the luminous intensity of
> the scene. So if we double the EV, we will have 2k photons striking the
> sensor and 1k electrons in the well. If we double it again, we'll have
> 4k photons and 2k electrons.
> 
> Suppose the well capacity is 1k electrons. We've tried to stuff twice
> that many into the well. Half those electrons will find some other way
> out of the well, than through the readout amplifiers. Does adding bits
> to the sampling do anything to recover the lost 1k electrons?
> 
> The correct answer to this question is "no." The analog limitation of
> well depth is fundamental and exists because those lost electrons are
> not amplified and never affect the signal that the ADCs see.
> 
> And zero is a possible number of electrons in the well. This does not
> lend itself to useful representation with a proportion, which is
> probably one reason why dynamic range is specified on sensor spec sheets
> with luminous flux density and electrons of noise, rather than a ratio.
> 
> To increase the dynamic range of the sensor, we have to either reduce
> noise, or increase the saturation point of the well. The latter means
> increasing the number of electrons it can hold, because that correlates
> linearly with the maximum brightness in the scene that the sensor can
> usefully record.
> 
> What I originally started this discussion with, was a statement that
> photographers should beware the abuse of bit depth specifications. It
> does not always tell you anything about the ability to record the
> dynamic range of a scene, because no matter how many bits you have, the
> highest n ADUs could all be representing saturated photosite wells that
> contain no useful information about the scene you've just photographed.
> I think bit rate is going to be the next great digital camera scam, once
> everybody gets over the megapixel fetish - it already appears to be
> happening in the digital back realm.

Re: [Digital BW] Artifacts with Digital images

2005-07-04 by Truman Prevatt

There are three issue involved. They are sensor sensitivity, noise floor 
and dynamic range. If the sensor is not very sensitive you don't need 
much dynamic range since the peak power to noise floor is not very 
great. Where dynamic range becomes an issue is in a low noise sensitive 
sensor. In this case the dynamic range requirement is determined by the 
minimal signal detectable (sensitivity) vs. the highest signal you need 
to detect.
If you assume the mininal detectable signal is right at the noise floor 
of the sensor the the dynamic range can be estimated by 6*(n-2) + 4.8 or 
6*(n-1) depending on the "type" of dynamic range you are interested in, 
where n is the number of bits.

In any digital system you need extra bits for the very simple reason - 
the numbers above are best case. In general two bits are waisted - under 
exposure. Most people don't meter to the peak signal value in the scene 
- rather to some average over the scene or the average in a "spot." BTW 
the zone system is a wonder method developed to get the maximum dynamic 
range out of a sensor or film, since it starts and the peak signal power 
-places that and works down from there.

How many bits are necessary for optimal quality - I venture to say 14 to 
16 especially if integer arithmetic is used in any point of the 
processing. When digital music was first being developed, many people 
though that since the ear could not discern past 8 bits on a simple tone 
test that 8 bits was sufficient. However, for a complex piece of music 
just about anyone can tell the difference between a 14 or 16 bit ADC and 
an 8 bit ADC. I suspect the same is ture for a complex scene.

Truman

Jeff Medkeff wrote:

>Roy Harrington wrote:
>
>
>
>  
>
>>Basically you increase the sensor dynamic range by either: reducing the noise
>>at the low end and/or increasing the clip point at the high end.  The bits of
>>the A/D have to fine enough to take advantage of the reduced noise at the
>>low end and coarse enough to not get clipped at the high end.
>>    
>>
>
>It sounds to me as though we are approaching this from two different 
>perspectives. When you say the bits have to be coarse enough to take 
>advantage of reduced noise, and fine enough not to clip, it sounds to me 
>as though you are saying something about the digital sampling of the 
>signal being read off the sensor. And if I understand correctly you are 
>dead right - there is no point to making the luminous flux density delta 
>per ADU so coarse that the 100 (or whatever) highest ADU values all clip 
>to white. Not only do you throw away values, but you also increase the 
>chances of posterization in the resulting digital image.
>
>  
>


-- 

"If you want to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first create 
the universe."

- Carl Sagan

RE: [Digital BW] Artifacts with Digital images

2005-07-04 by Paul D. DeRocco

> From: Roy Harrington
>
> Feels like we've drifted a little from the subject.  My comment
> only had to do with
> how the dynamic range of a sensor directly influenced how many
> bits you needed
> in the A/D and why -- that it is an integer arithmetic reason not
> a physics reason.

No disagreement there.

> I think you are confusing dynamic range with smoothness or
> resolution of gray
> values thoughout the scale.  Dynamic range is only a measure of
> how far apart
> the darks shadows can be from the brightest highlights.  It's a
> matter of seeing
> detail in shadows without blowing out the highlights.  Dynamic
> range is just
> a ratio -- no more.

Sure, but the dark end isn't limited by the numeric range--that goes to
zero, and you can't divide by zero. It's limited by the noise level, which
means that photographing the inside of your lens cap will give you nonzero
output. The average of that noise defines your black level.

> What I think is a common fallacy is the logic:
> 1) More dynamic range  implies  more bit depth needed
> 2) More bit depth  implies  more gray values
> Therefore:
> More dynamic range is one and the same as more gray values.
>
> This almost seems obviously true but in fact it isn't true.
> (1) is only true because you need more bits to get the max/min larger
> NOT so there are necessarily more distinguishable values in between.

I agree entirely.

--

Ciao,               Paul D. DeRocco
Paul                mailto:pderocco@...

Re: Artifacts with Digital images

2005-07-04 by Roy Harrington

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul D. DeRocco" 
<pderocco@i...> wrote:
> > From: Roy Harrington
..
> > I think you are confusing dynamic range with smoothness or
> > resolution of gray
> > values thoughout the scale.  Dynamic range is only a measure of
> > how far apart
> > the darks shadows can be from the brightest highlights.  It's a
> > matter of seeing
> > detail in shadows without blowing out the highlights.  Dynamic
> > range is just
> > a ratio -- no more.
> 
> Sure, but the dark end isn't limited by the numeric range--that goes to
> zero, and you can't divide by zero. It's limited by the noise level, which
> means that photographing the inside of your lens cap will give you nonzero
> output. The average of that noise defines your black level.
> 
...
> --
> 
> Ciao,               Paul D. DeRocco
> Paul                mailto:pderocco@i...

But the "min" in the denominator isn't the smallest integer number that may
come out of the A/D.  The min is the minimum signal that produces an output
larger than the output you see from just noise.  

Maybe this example will illustrate what I mean: 
Let's assume we calibrate the A/D such that it reachs beyond the voltages 
output by the sensor.  Say its a 10bit A/D so the possible outputs are 0 to 1023
but the noise level with no signal input reads out 20,  and the max read out you
get is say 1000 -- the clipping point.  What is the dynamic range?   It's the
ratio of the signal input values (i.e. light levels) that produce the clip point =1000
over the input that produces the smallest signal value = 21.  Because of the
linearity of input signal with the digital output the ratio is:
  dynamic range =  ( 1000-20 )/ (21-20) = 980/1 or 980-to-1.

The dark end is very much the limiting area.   Note that 21 is the first signal
and 22 is the second signal.  But the signals involved here are:  (22-20) = 2
and (21-20) = 1.  The second detectable signal must be twice the size -- a full
stop brighter.  To get to just 36 output you need 4 stops brighter.  You need to
be much larger than the noise level to produce decent separation of grays.
That's you need a much larger DynRg in say a scanner that it seems you ever use.

Roy

Re: was Artifacts with Digital images- bit depth for dummies

2005-07-04 by dfaprinting

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Jeff Medkeff 
<medkeff@g...> wrote:
------------------------------------- disclaimer
Please, no one take offense from the title, just playing on the title 
of so many books meant to reduce the problem to non technical terms.
-------------------------------------end disclaimer

How about this: (it really would be easier with some pictures, but 
you'll have to just push forward without the visual assistance)

Dynamic range is a bucket, you can fill it with water, and it's full 
when no more water can be added. Put more water in, and it spills 
over the sides (try it, it's fun).

Now bit depth gets a little strange depending on how you set it up.

You could sample the bucket in single bit mode. Turn the bucket over 
and see if anything comes out. NO--> zero, YES--> one

You could sample the bucket in 8 bit mode. Remove the water with a 
cup and count how many cups the bucket contains.

You could sample it in 10 bit mode. Remove the water with a large 
spoon and count how many of those the bucket holds.

You could sample it in 16 bit mode. Remove the water with a small 
spoon and count how many of those it holds.

You could sample it in 32 bit mode. Remove the water with a dropper 
and count how many drops the bucket contains.

Now here is the catch, and where people are getting thrown:

You could also sample the bucket like you had 2 buckets worth of 
water (but still really only have the one bucket). This makes it look 
like you have 2 buckets, so the sales people can say that you are 
sampling in two buckets worth of water. The bucket size did not 
change, but you left enough room for 2 buckets worth, even though you 
can never achieve that much water. Now if you sample with a cup, you 
have room to get twice the number of cups from the bucket, but of 
course you can't because you still only have the one bucket. So what 
do you do with the extra cups... They come out empty in this case. 
You can either take out empty cups at the beginning, or take out 
empty cups at the end, but you will only ever take out as many full 
cups as the (single) bucket can hold. 

(of course you could fill those empty cups with error correcting cups 
if you want to)

Re: [Digital BW] Re: was Artifacts with Digital images- bit depth for dummies

2005-07-04 by Steve Kale

But while the top half of the bucket contains the same amount of water as
the bottom half, it represents only 1 unit of dynamic range (linear device).
If you keep halving the amount of water left and thereby measuring off 1
unit of exposure or dynamic range each time, the amount of water available
to that "zone" is a lot less.  At some point the amount of water per
exposure zone is so little it is unusable and at some point falls below a
sample unit.  So the size of your sample (minimum measurement) is important.
There is no doubt we would rather have a bigger, fuller bucket to begin
with.  But there is benefit to being able to sample or measure off the
bucket in smaller units because at the end of the day we drink the water
(manipulate images) in these units.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> From: dfaprinting <dfaprinting@...>

> 
> You could also sample the bucket like you had 2 buckets worth of
> water (but still really only have the one bucket). This makes it look
> like you have 2 buckets, so the sales people can say that you are
> sampling in two buckets worth of water. The bucket size did not
> change, but you left enough room for 2 buckets worth, even though you
> can never achieve that much water. Now if you sample with a cup, you
> have room to get twice the number of cups from the bucket, but of
> course you can't because you still only have the one bucket. So what
> do you do with the extra cups... They come out empty in this case.
> You can either take out empty cups at the beginning, or take out
> empty cups at the end, but you will only ever take out as many full
> cups as the (single) bucket can hold.
> 
> (of course you could fill those empty cups with error correcting cups
> if you want to)

[Digital BW] Re: was Artifacts with Digital images- bit depth for dummies

2005-07-04 by dfaprinting

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale 
<stevekale@b...> wrote:
> But while the top half of the bucket contains the same amount of 
water as
> the bottom half, it represents only 1 unit of dynamic range (linear 
device).
> If you keep halving the amount of water left and thereby measuring 
off 1
> unit of exposure or dynamic range each time, the amount of water 
available
> to that "zone" is a lot less.  At some point the amount of water per
> exposure zone is so little it is unusable and at some point falls 
below a
> sample unit.  So the size of your sample (minimum measurement) is 
important.
> There is no doubt we would rather have a bigger, fuller bucket to 
begin
> with.  But there is benefit to being able to sample or measure off 
the
> bucket in smaller units because at the end of the day we drink the 
water
> (manipulate images) in these units.
> 

Did I ever say that the sample size wasn't important? No I don't 
believe I did. Simply that you can divide the bucket up into big 
amounts, or small amounts. And whether you sample the actual bucket, 
or make it look like you are sampling a bucket that is twice the size.

No matter what method you use, you can not fill the bucket past full! 
Your dynamic range (excluding noise) is the bucket size from empty to 
full. You can not get a bucket that is less than empty. You can not 
get a bucket that is more than full. How you want to count it is up 
to you, including whether you consider a part full cup as nothing 
(zero) or full (one), when the bucket is full, it will have (n) cups 
worth. If you have a bucket that is nearly full, it is up to you to 
decide if that last cup has enough water in it to count as full, or 
count as empty.

Re: [Digital BW] Re: was Artifacts with Digital images- bit depth for dummies

2005-07-04 by Steve Kale

But in the end one is interested in useable/'manipulable' measurement units
- in this case a number truncated to n bits.  If the unit of measurement or
smallest useable amount is large there is slop in the bucket that can't be
used.  That is, even with two identical and identically filled buckets, if
you can access one with a smaller cup than the other then you have more
units to play with and less useful water that can't be used.  (Your bucket
is only as good as the number of complete measurement units it holds - there
are no fractional units beyond that.)

The debate comes down to, I think, whether you are interested in the dynamic
range of the sensor or the useable dynamic range in levels provided to the
user - how many levels are available per f-stop and at what point are there
not enough (or indeed less than one in which case none).  I think this is
the point that Normen Koren is trying to make when he discusses dynamic
range and bit depth. The question is whether 12 bits is more than enough (a
small enough unit of measure) to make full use of the dynamic range of the
pixel well and whether additional bits would simply store noise or add
value.  I think most would agree that 8 bits aren't enough to provide the
user with the full capability of a 35mm digicam's sensor and that 12 is
better.  My question is whether 16 (as used by some manufacturers) is better
still (and hence increases available dynamic range) or, in the case of a
35mm digicam sensor, a waste of time.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> From: dfaprinting <dfaprinting@...>

> No matter what method you use, you can not fill the bucket past full!
> Your dynamic range (excluding noise) is the bucket size from empty to
> full. You can not get a bucket that is less than empty. You can not
> get a bucket that is more than full. How you want to count it is up
> to you, including whether you consider a part full cup as nothing
> (zero) or full (one), when the bucket is full, it will have (n) cups
> worth. If you have a bucket that is nearly full, it is up to you to
> decide if that last cup has enough water in it to count as full, or
> count as empty.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
> they are often being updated.
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
> page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
> Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership
> without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
> printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the
> membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and
> Moderators. See ³Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines² in the Files section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> 
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE ³OWNER² AND
> ³MODERATORS² OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU
> FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY
> DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL,
> USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  ³OWNER² AND ³MODERATORS² OF
> DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH
> DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW,
> THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR
> TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE
> DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE
> DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
>  
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
>

Re: [Digital BW] Artifacts with Digital images

2005-07-04 by Jeff Medkeff

Paul D. DeRocco wrote:


>>Dynamic
>>range is just
>>a ratio -- no more.

> Sure, but the dark end isn't limited by the numeric range--that goes to
> zero, and you can't divide by zero. It's limited by the noise level, which
> means that photographing the inside of your lens cap will give you nonzero
> output. The average of that noise defines your black level.

Hey, from this statement it just dawned on me that one of the problems I 
have had in understanding Roy's point is that he's been assuming that 
you will always have noise in a pixel.

With science cameras with highly reproducible bias, and dark current on 
the order of one electron per six minutes (tenth of an hour) per pixel 
or less, we take images all the time with nonspurious zero value pixels 
(meaning very often zero electrons, and always less on average than 
(e/ADU)/2 electrons) after bias subtraction. So the presence of 
intrinsic noise in an image was not an a priori assumption on my part.

Even with a Canon 10D at 0.5 ADU/sec/pixel, if you are shooting outside 
during the day at 1/500 you are going to have a lot of noise-free 
pixels. Of course here the offset is up around 110 to 130, and it isn't 
as consistent, so bias subtraction doesn't work as well. It seems like 
you might always have a noisy image come out of such a camera.

Maybe the noisy DSLR image is a good assumption on Roy's part now that I 
think about it - at least for cameras currently on the market. But the 
images can still be noise free at the analog level, and I was getting 
tripped up there because, as Paul says, zero *is* a possible answer to 
the question of how many electrons are in the well. Sorry if this has 
contributed to any confusion.

--
Jeff Medkeff
Eagle River, Alaska

Re: [Digital BW] Artifacts with Digital images

2005-07-04 by Roy Harrington

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Jeff Medkeff <medkeff@g...> 
wrote:
> 
> 
> Paul D. DeRocco wrote:
> 
> 
> >>Dynamic
> >>range is just
> >>a ratio -- no more.
> 
> > Sure, but the dark end isn't limited by the numeric range--that goes to
> > zero, and you can't divide by zero. It's limited by the noise level, which
> > means that photographing the inside of your lens cap will give you nonzero
> > output. The average of that noise defines your black level.
> 
> Hey, from this statement it just dawned on me that one of the problems I 
> have had in understanding Roy's point is that he's been assuming that 
> you will always have noise in a pixel.

Yes, I think you always have some noise.  No matter how accurate anything is
there are always quantum mechanics effects.  In relationship to dynamic range
I'm only talking about the noise at the black (no signal) level.

> 
> With science cameras with highly reproducible bias, and dark current on 
> the order of one electron per six minutes (tenth of an hour) per pixel 
> or less, we take images all the time with nonspurious zero value pixels 
> (meaning very often zero electrons, and always less on average than 
> (e/ADU)/2 electrons) after bias subtraction. So the presence of 
> intrinsic noise in an image was not an a priori assumption on my part.

Obviously you have an extremely large dynamic range here.  The noise may be
only 1 electron but it's there.

> 
> Even with a Canon 10D at 0.5 ADU/sec/pixel, if you are shooting outside 
> during the day at 1/500 you are going to have a lot of noise-free 
> pixels. Of course here the offset is up around 110 to 130, and it isn't 
> as consistent, so bias subtraction doesn't work as well. It seems like 
> you might always have a noisy image come out of such a camera.
> 
> Maybe the noisy DSLR image is a good assumption on Roy's part now that I 
> think about it - at least for cameras currently on the market. But the 
> images can still be noise free at the analog level, and I was getting 
> tripped up there because, as Paul says, zero *is* a possible answer to 
> the question of how many electrons are in the well. Sorry if this has 
> contributed to any confusion.

Zero can be an answer to how many electrons are in the well, but that isn't
the denominator.  The denominator is the minimum signal that will produce
more electrons than no signal produces (i.e. noise).  In your science camera
example you have noise at 0 or 1 electrons, well the smallest signal needed to
produce 2 electrons is what goes into the denominator for dyn range.  It's
a subtle distinction but key to the definition of dyn  range.

Roy
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> 
> --
> Jeff Medkeff
> Eagle River, Alaska

Re: [Digital BW] Artifacts with Digital images

2005-07-04 by Sam McCandless

At 12:19 PM -0800 7/4/05, Jeff Medkeff wrote:
>[snip]
>Maybe the noisy DSLR image is a good assumption on Roy's part now that I
>think about it - at least for cameras currently on the market. But the
>images can still be noise free at the analog level, and I was getting
>tripped up there because, as Paul says, zero *is* a possible answer to
>the question of how many electrons are in the well. Sorry if this has
>contributed to any confusion.
>[snip]

Just a drop in the bucket to me, Jeff.

Are there good references on this stuff? Places like RIT must have 
texts? I could use a primer for starters.
--
Sam

Re: [Digital BW] Artifacts with Digital images

2005-07-04 by Jeff Medkeff

Steve Kale wrote:


> do you feel that for a given Canon
> sensor (say the 1Ds MK II sensor) there is anything to be gained from
> increasing the bit depth of the ADC?

Steve, in the specific case of the 1Ds Mark II, I do not think 
additional bits (with higher sampling resolution) would be a gain. One 
additional bit halves the gain and that seems like it would be too much 
to me.

Since I'm not the sensor designer and I don't know certain important 
specs for that sensor, this is a swag. I'm basing this opinion on the 
pretty high offset for this camera and my presumption that the gain is 
similar to that on the 10D, 20D, and XT sensors. But those are not the 
only specifications that matter, and my figures for those specs are of 
dubious accuracy or applicability anyway. Perhaps someone else can throw 
in their thoughts on this.


> I was always puzzled, though,
> particularly having read the digital tonality material on Normen's site, why
> a camera manufacturer would not deliver 16 bits to the user and hence, as I
> understand it, improve the usefulness (read "editability") of those dark
> areas just above the noise threshold.

If you want editability improvement, one useful thing to do might be to 
lobby your software vendors for floating point math in image 
manipulation algorithms, and support for file storage in 32 bit float 
FITS format or some layerable equivalent.

I'm guessing (I'm not a manipulation algorithm expert) that this will 
make it harder to put gaps in the histogram, which is a popular way (for 
me at least) to ruin images under the current scheme. I'd also guess 
that much of the additional precision you get with 32 bits is empty, and 
that since editing destroys information you're going to hit an 
editability limit somewhere anyway. I'd be interested in hearing someone 
with expertise opine on this.


> But the question remains as to whether
> 12 is enough/optimal for current 35mm sensors and whether a significant
> improvement in usefulness can be achieved by increasing bit depth to, say,
> 16.

In my opinion, we're not to the point yet that 16 bits are useful for 
miniature format DSLRs from Nikon or Canon. I think it is also 
questionable whether we are there for some of the medium format backs 
I've seen or used, although certainly many of them justify the 
expression of more than 12 bits.

That we *could* get to a useful 16 bit output in DSLRs pretty quickly is 
shown by certain camera companies, like SBIG that someone mentioned, 
which use low-end (mostly Sony?) sensors with well depths about what we 
see with DSLR sensors, and which do usefully output 16 bits. So I'm not 
saying we will never be there; we're just not there yet. The latter 
sensors are cooled, and read out very slowly compared to our DSLRs, and 
they are CCDs and hence a bit power hungry. So there are engineering and 
usability incentives not to use them at this time, but improvements seem 
to be possible.

--
Jeff Medkeff
Eagle River, Alaska

Re: [Digital BW] Artifacts with Digital images

2005-07-05 by kenstrain2000

Two thoughts:-

1) The big unknown here seems to be the noise in the readout amplifier
under real operating conditions. (The properties of sensor itself can
be guessed more easily as the physics is simple.)  The amplifier noise
sets the balance between readout time and dynamic range.  Astro CCDs
read fewer pixels much more slowly to reduce the effect of readout
noise.  I like the fast readout provided by my camera:)
I guess that the manufacturers take a system design approach to the
problem of handling the image information as it passes through
lens/microlens/filters/sensor/readout/gain/digitisation, balancing the
noise at each stage against cost, time to save image, etc. I don't
believe the ADC is the hardest part of the problem, and suspect that
extra bits would be used if they gave better images (at least in >$1k
cameras). Of course there is still room for improvement in all areas,
but it might not be very rapid.  

2) If we "expose to the right" we always have the same light on the
brightest pixel(s), for a given ISO, and lens and camera flare will
tend to produce perhaps of order 0.3% of this on the darkest pixel
(give or take - of course it varies by quite a lot from image to image
and lens to lens).  That corresponds to about 8 bits dynamic range.
Add another few bits to dig some detail out of the shadows/flare and
it seems to me that we don't have much to gain except in very special
circumstances. 
Of course one could argue that the lowering of shadow contrast by
flare means that we need more bits so that it can be expanded again in
raw conversion, but this really just fighting nature - a better
approach would be more contrasty lenses and good lens shades to reduce
flare and therefore require less expansion of the lower end.  

That is another reason why stacking differently-exposed images could
help, especially if the exposure change is achieved by putting an ND
filter over the lens to cut down the flare in absolute terms. (I'm not
sure how seriously this suggestion should be taken: a solid tripod is
needed and some care. I have never tried it - indeed don't have an ND
filter to hand.)  I think it could work quite well.  

From memory one of the big benefits of some medium format and most
large format film cameras was quite low flare compared to 35mm
(perhaps I am generalising too much, but it fits my experience) -
perhaps it is still true with MF digital backs?  

It would be interesting if someone has pointers to flare results to
make these numbers firmer, or if anyone has tried the ND filter trick.


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Jeff Medkeff
<medkeff@g...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> Steve Kale wrote:
> 
> 
> > do you feel that for a given Canon
> > sensor (say the 1Ds MK II sensor) there is anything to be gained from
> > increasing the bit depth of the ADC?
> 
> Steve, in the specific case of the 1Ds Mark II, I do not think 
> additional bits (with higher sampling resolution) would be a gain. One 
> additional bit halves the gain and that seems like it would be too much 
> to me.

Re: [Digital BW] Artifacts with Digital images

2005-07-05 by kenstrain2000

May I reply to my own post to add this link

http://clarkvision.com/imagedetail/digital.signal.to.noise/

which is certainly very interesting. 


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "kenstrain2000"
<kenstrain2000@y...> wrote:
> 	
> 
> Two thoughts:-
> 
> 1) The big unknown here seems to be the noise in the readout
amplifier
> under real operating conditions. (The properties of sensor itself
can
> be guessed more easily as the physics is simple.)  The amplifier
noise
> sets the balance between readout time and dynamic range.  Astro CCDs
> read fewer pixels much more slowly to reduce the effect of readout
> noise.  I like the fast readout provided by my camera:)
> I guess that the manufacturers take a system design approach to the
> problem of handling the image information as it passes through
> lens/microlens/filters/sensor/readout/gain/digitisation, balancing
the
> noise at each stage against cost, time to save image, etc. I don't
> believe the ADC is the hardest part of the problem, and suspect that
> extra bits would be used if they gave better images (at least in
>$1k
> cameras). Of course there is still room for improvement in all
areas,
> but it might not be very rapid.  
>

RE: Artifacts with Digital images

2005-07-05 by Derek Ealy

Paul,

What did you mean by?

"For the edge between the dark tree and bright sky, using a singe color
channel from the shot that was 2 stops under exposed resulted in a very good
edge."

I assume that you were addressing the problem that sometimes occurs with a 
white edge or halo that appears in digital images with a strong transition 
from dark to light like a building infront of the sky. What is this singe 
color channel technique you mentioned? I've wished for a a way to deal with 
this type of problem that is faster than burning the edge at 400% zoom in.

Derek

Re: [Digital BW] RE: Artifacts with Digital images

2005-07-05 by Steve Kale

Isn't this just chromatic aberration?
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> From: Derek Ealy <dealy663@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 14:06:07 -0700
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: [Digital BW] RE: Artifacts with Digital images
> 
> Paul,
> 
> What did you mean by?
> 
> "For the edge between the dark tree and bright sky, using a singe color
> channel from the shot that was 2 stops under exposed resulted in a very good
> edge."
> 
> I assume that you were addressing the problem that sometimes occurs with a
> white edge or halo that appears in digital images with a strong transition
> from dark to light like a building infront of the sky. What is this singe
> color channel technique you mentioned? I've wished for a a way to deal with
> this type of problem that is faster than burning the edge at 400% zoom in.
> 
> Derek
>

RE: [Digital BW] RE: Artifacts with Digital images

2005-07-06 by Paul Roark

> >
> > What did you mean by?
> >
> > "For the edge between the dark tree and bright sky, using a singe

Sorry, typo -- should have been "single"

> > color channel from the shot that was 2 stops under exposed resulted 
> >in a very good edge."

The under-exposed (2 stops under the camera's overall setting) green channel
was the best -- and quite good.  There is still just a hint of the artifact.



> 
> Isn't this just chromatic aberration?

I don't think it was a lens aberration.  I'm more inclined to think it was a
type of blooming.  It did not seem to be related to the distance from the
center, and the areas were not that far from the center.  I usually see
color aberrations in lenses closer to the edge.  One reason I stayed with
the 24mm Canon, and not one of the zooms was the significantly lower color
fringing off axis with the 24.  (The Tokina 12-24 looks like it's worth
looking at -- if the rest of the system works out.)

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Move to quarantaine

This moves the raw source file on disk only. The archive index is not changed automatically, so you still need to run a manual refresh afterward.