Digital BW, The Print

An interesting ramble but one totally irrelevant and unhelpful to the original poster.

________________ Reply Header ________________

Subject:	[Digital BW] Re: Color Management without instruments (T vs PR)
Author:	"Claytons Jones" <cj@...>
Date:		30th September 2005 1:26:56 pm

Hello John,

>There is little point in trying to convert someone who argues
>against _your_ preferred workflow.  Responding to someone who 
>objects to using a level of control they feel is pointless and 
>unnecessary is, in itself, pointless and unnecessary.

Thank you!  This is the first statement containing any real wisdom so
far in this thread.  

This discussion is actually just the latest guise of the age-old
debate between the Theorist and the Practical Realist, and this is
a replay of a similar one last April (see "Matching Monitor and
Print", April 10-15, 2005) which had some of the same players.  

The statements of the theorist are usually true and can't be logically
argued against.  But the Practical Reality is that it doesn't have to
be done that way.  The theorist says that the high tech approach is
more accurate and saves time, paper and ink, and he is theoretically
correct.  The practical realist knows that, while true, the difference
is usually not worth the extra effort and expense.  

If one is preparing images for a press job or to be printed by a
service bureau then of course the calibrated approach is called for. 
But for the legion of those who do their own work then it's simply not
necessary if one is not so inclined.

The simple methods I've been using have adapted beautifully to the
2400 and I'm now working very quickly and efficiently with good
WYSIWYG and minimal paper and ink use.  I can print on any paper I
want without having to first make a profile or get one from someone
else.  Last weekend I finished a detailed outline of the method and
it's now on the web site (article #9, "Fine Art Black and White with
the Epson 2400 - A sensible and easy approach..."

The fact is that not everyone is inclined to the high tech approach,
and many people, especially beginners, are intimidated by it and are
scared away or afraid to ask questions (I know because I get a lot of
email from them).  This forum should not be scaring people away, so
every now and then the ordinary mortals need to speak up and present
the other side.

Some people become engineers and some become real estate agents, but
both may love photography.  The non-technically inclined need to know
that the high tech approach is not necessary in order to get gallery
quality fine art BW prints, with accurate and repeatable results, with
efficiency and minimal fuss and bother.  It doesn't have to be
complicated (see article #8 for more thoughts about this and a
comparison to the Zone System wars of yore).  


Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm





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>An interesting ramble but one totally irrelevant and unhelpful to the 
>original poster.

you mean like 99.999999999999999999999999999999 per cent of the tripe on the 
internut stupor highway???

junk mail has come of age  . . . in spades (I don't mean your post Steve).

Paul Aparycki

Clayton's posts are ALWAYS valuable...it's obviously intentionally
hurtful to describe any of his posts as "irrelevant and unhelpful." 

He is, after all, one of the few who communicates important things
about digital printing clearly.

John Kelly
Albuquerque

____________________________________________________________

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Kale"
<stevekale@b...> wrote:
> An interesting ramble but one totally irrelevant and unhelpful to
the original poster.

> 
> ________________ Reply Header ________________
> Subject:	[Digital BW] Re: Color Management without instruments (T vs PR)
> Author:	"Claytons Jones" <cj@c...>
> Date:		30th September 2005 1:26:56 pm
> 
> Hello John,
> 
> >There is little point in trying to convert someone who argues
> >against _your_ preferred workflow.  Responding to someone who 
> >objects to using a level of control they feel is pointless and 
> >unnecessary is, in itself, pointless and unnecessary.
> 
> Thank you!  This is the first statement containing any real wisdom so
> far in this thread.  
> 
> This discussion is actually just the latest guise of the age-old
> debate between the Theorist and the Practical Realist, and this is
> a replay of a similar one last April (see "Matching Monitor and
> Print", April 10-15, 2005) which had some of the same players.  
> 
> The statements of the theorist are usually true and can't be logically
> argued against.  But the Practical Reality is that it doesn't have to
> be done that way.  The theorist says that the high tech approach is
> more accurate and saves time, paper and ink, and he is theoretically
> correct.  The practical realist knows that, while true, the difference
> is usually not worth the extra effort and expense.

ALL: I couldn't agree more fully with John Kelly's
statement below.  Some of the posts on this subject
such as the one below from Steve Kale have terribly
degenerated into personal attacks and insults, and i
join John in decrying them.  Opinions obviously vary,
but those who wish in indulge in this kind of
infintile ranting should keep it to themselves and not
inflict it upon the rest (dare i say - the vast
majority) of us.   Thank you all for your helpful,
thoughtful comments and intellegent questions...

Michael J. Vendrell, M.D.

--- djon43 <djon43@...> wrote:

> Clayton's posts are ALWAYS valuable...it's obviously
> intentionally
> hurtful to describe any of his posts as "irrelevant
> and unhelpful." 
> 
> He is, after all, one of the few who communicates
> important things
> about digital printing clearly.
> 
> John Kelly
> Albuquerque
> 
>
____________________________________________________________
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com,
> "Steve Kale"
> <stevekale@b...> wrote:
> > An interesting ramble but one totally irrelevant
> and unhelpful to
> the original poster.
> > 
> > ________________ Reply Header ________________
> > Subject:	[Digital BW] Re: Color Management without
> instruments (T vs PR)
> > Author:	"Claytons Jones" <cj@c...>
> > Date:		30th September 2005 1:26:56 pm
> > 
> > Hello John,
> > 
> > >There is little point in trying to convert
> someone who argues
> > >against _your_ preferred workflow.  Responding to
> someone who 
> > >objects to using a level of control they feel is
> pointless and 
> > >unnecessary is, in itself, pointless and
> unnecessary.
> > 
> > Thank you!  This is the first statement containing
> any real wisdom so
> > far in this thread.  
> > 
> > This discussion is actually just the latest guise
> of the age-old
> > debate between the Theorist and the Practical
> Realist, and this is
> > a replay of a similar one last April (see
> "Matching Monitor and
> > Print", April 10-15, 2005) which had some of the
> same players.  
> > 
> > The statements of the theorist are usually true
> and can't be logically
> > argued against.  But the Practical Reality is that
> it doesn't have to
> > be done that way.  The theorist says that the high
> tech approach is
> > more accurate and saves time, paper and ink, and
> he is theoretically
> > correct.  The practical realist knows that, while
> true, the difference
> > is usually not worth the extra effort and expense.
>   
> 
> 
> 



		
__________________________________ 
Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 
http://mail.yahoo.com

-----Original Message-----

From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Steve
Kale
Sent: Saturday, October 01, 2005 11:03 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Color Management without instruments (T vs PR 

The non-technically inclined need to know
that the high tech approach is not necessary in order to get gallery
quality fine art BW prints, with accurate and repeatable results, with
efficiency and minimal fuss and bother. 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

...not only that, it costs nothing, and indeed if one were to print all
one's B&W using black only, then the cost of printing inks reduces to a
fourth or a sixth or an eighth of the usual price.

Picture the scene my merrie men as, on a bright and sunny Saturday morning,
you walk casually towards your friendly local Inkjet supply company. As you
saunter towards your objective you pass a building society, wherein you
observe several fellow photographers applying for a second mortgage,
something that has become necessary since they purchased a new Epson 2400.

You however have no such needs, and quickly reach your intended objective,
you hand over a shiny new tenner with the remark "a single black pigment
cartridge my good man, and be quick about it because I have fine art B&W
work to do and time is money to me squire".

The assistant does his job and you leave. He will later swear that you
seemed to have a golden haze body contour as you left the shop and for sure
you are a much nicer person now that you have eschewed the "old ways" for
the new, or should that be "the old ways" for "much older ways"? I really
don't know myself.

Richard
 

---
[This E-mail has been scanned for viruses but it is your responsibility 
to maintain up to date anti virus software on the device that you are
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I think that might not be true....it takes a certain amount of ink to  
make the image....If you use B.O, you just use more of the single  
ink. If you use 4 inks, then you use the same amount of ink spliut  
four ways, etc..... On my 2400 I dont seem to spend any more than i  
did on the 1280, and the 1280 in B.O mode just used a lot of eboni.  
The main diference was that in B.O mode I had banding in the shadows,  
and the images had an erie over-sharpened look that was kind of fake  
looking.....DM

On Oct 2, 2005, at 10:47 AM, Richard Corbett wrote:

> and indeed if one were to print all
> one's B&W using black only, then the cost of printing inks reduces  
> to a
> fourth or a sixth or an eighth of the usual price

There may be a misunderstanding here, I am not talking about doing BO
on the 2400.  I'm using the full K3 inkset in ABW mode.  Please read
the article for details.

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Can I interject a quick note? This is frequently characterized as a luddite vrs techhead issue. 
It's far from that, those are not even two extremes of a straight line issue. In fact, amongst a 
universe of possible approaches, those would probably be the least reasonable two.
I tend towards attempting to understand the proccesses I use, and have discovered there are 
tools available to furthur that. So I would generally advise more learning. On the other hand 
I've known people who instinctively make beautiful work with little technical knowledge.
I just want to assure people who may be inclined to pursue more tecnical knowledge that it is 
not a dead end or an end in itself, but is very useful, even fascinating to some, and can help 
gain control toward more beautiful prints. You can utilize as much or little as you like.
There is no shame in being technically adept, just as there is none in proceding on feel and 
instinct alone if that's your make-up.
Tyler

In my "day job" I am a Diagnostic and Interventional
Radiologist with a sub-speciality in Breast Imaging
and Intervention (MRI, Mammography, Stereotaxis, and
Ultrasound)   The equipment we use for imaging and
quality control is complex and VERY expensive (e.g.
~$2 million for a magnet, coils, and CAD software) and
indeed aspects of it are controlled by FDA
regulations.   The quality control -  both the
equipment and the procedures are very useful and
required by law.   Having said that - i find that the
experience of my "eye" is usually equal to and
occassionally more helpful for obtaining diagnostic
images (a pragmatic as opposed to an aestetic
decision, but nevertheless probably nt too far OT).


In summary, SOMETIMES it is helpful to learn the
"rules" so one can feel confident in breaking them
correctly.   And SOMETIMES (and for some of us) the
very obsession with the technical rules ruins the joy
and stiffles the creativity of making pictures that
move us...

Michael J. Vendrell
--- Tyler Boley <tyler@...> wrote:

> Can I interject a quick note? This is frequently
> characterized as a luddite vrs techhead issue. 
> It's far from that, those are not even two extremes
> of a straight line issue. In fact, amongst a 
> universe of possible approaches, those would
> probably be the least reasonable two.
> I tend towards attempting to understand the
> proccesses I use, and have discovered there are 
> tools available to furthur that. So I would
> generally advise more learning. On the other hand 
> I've known people who instinctively make beautiful
> work with little technical knowledge.
> I just want to assure people who may be inclined to
> pursue more tecnical knowledge that it is 
> not a dead end or an end in itself, but is very
> useful, even fascinating to some, and can help 
> gain control toward more beautiful prints. You can
> utilize as much or little as you like.
> There is no shame in being technically adept, just
> as there is none in proceding on feel and 
> instinct alone if that's your make-up.
> Tyler
> 
> 
> 



		
__________________________________ 
Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 
http://mail.yahoo.com

-----Original Message-----

From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tyler
Boley
Sent: Monday, October 03, 2005 1:07 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Color Management without instruments (T vs PR )

There is no shame in being technically adept, just as there is none in
proceding on feel and instinct alone if that's your make-up.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
This has nothing whatsoever to do with shame.

People who use subjectivity as a de-facto means to produce anything cannot
pass the personalized instincts used on to anybody else.

Those who engage in scientific method can.

Richard

---
[This E-mail has been scanned for viruses but it is your responsibility 
to maintain up to date anti virus software on the device that you are
currently using to read this email. ]

"Subjectivity", "personalized instincts" -- terms that need some 
unpacking to foster productive discussion rather than pointless 
argument. At any rate, Clayton isn't advocating a methodless, purely 
intuitive approach to printing. His website article on printing BW with 
the 2400 provides a step-by-step method that can be duplicated and 
passed on. 

Chris Hargens


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Corbett" 
<richard@r...> wrote:
> People who use subjectivity as a de-facto means to produce anything 
cannot
> pass the personalized instincts used on to anybody else.
> 
> Those who engage in scientific method can.
> 
> Richard
> 
> ---
> [This E-mail has been scanned for viruses but it is your 
responsibility 
> to maintain up to date anti virus software on the device that you are
> currently using to read this email. ]

Hello Tyler,

>Can I interject a quick note?...

Thank you for filling in.  As usual you add a well thought out and
helpful perspective.  

I hope the readers understand that I am in no way atempting to urge
people not to use a "high tech" approach.  The purpose of my post was
simply to say that it doesn't have to be done that way.  

Quote from the last paragraph:

 "The non-technically inclined need to know
 that the high tech approach is not necessary to..."

I might also add that the method I describe in my articles is not a
total no-knowledge-needed approach.  It is based upon a certain amount
of understanding of how the system works (which is thoroughly
explained).  To understand it does require a modicum of effort.


Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

> People who use subjectivity as a de-facto means to produce anything cannot
> pass the personalized instincts used on to anybody else.

Actually they can, it's called apprenticeship. There is a long tradition of
this model in the arts as well as in medicine and many other fields.

Wendel

Amen.  I for one am totally against dumbing down this forum or making the
assumption that all are beginners and none are commercial
photographers/printers.  In this instance, I guy looking to increase his
technical knowledge and to make greater use of colour management technology
asked for help.  Posts suggesting that colour management technology isn't
advantageous are naïve and those that suggest adequate results can be
achieved without it do not assist.  "Newbies" should be encouraged by the
great deal of technical knowledge that exists on this forum.  I, for one,
owe an enormous debt of gratitude to the skill that is shared here.  By its
nature the simple and complex are discussed here in an interlaced fashion.
But I encourage everyone, especially the beginners, to read the complex
discussions even if understanding is not immediate.  Over time you will
learn a great deal and only then will you have a basis for assessing the
amount to which you would care to utilize and apply it.

> From: Tyler Boley <tyler@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Mon, 03 Oct 2005 00:07:03 -0000
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Color Management without instruments (T vs PR )
> 
> Can I interject a quick note? This is frequently characterized as a luddite
> vrs techhead issue.
> It's far from that, those are not even two extremes of a straight line issue.
> In fact, amongst a
> universe of possible approaches, those would probably be the least reasonable
> two.
> I tend towards attempting to understand the proccesses I use, and have
> discovered there are
> tools available to furthur that. So I would generally advise more learning. On
> the other hand 
> I've known people who instinctively make beautiful work with little technical
> knowledge.
> I just want to assure people who may be inclined to pursue more tecnical
> knowledge that it is
> not a dead end or an end in itself, but is very useful, even fascinating to
> some, and can help
> gain control toward more beautiful prints. You can utilize as much or little
> as you like.
> There is no shame in being technically adept, just as there is none in
> proceding on feel and
> instinct alone if that's your make-up.
> Tyler

One is not talking method alone but rather results from a particular method
or set of procedures.

It is unlikely that anyone else can exactly duplicate his results.

On the other hand using science it becomes possible, once taught, to
generally speaking, exactly duplicate results, and time after time after
time.

What is more the scientific method is what gives the inkjet man the tools to
do the job in the first place.

Science is progressive and recordable and can be used to define a repeatable
standard.

The subjectivist is a law unto him/herself and once he/she shuffles off this
mortal coil, the real know-how goes to the "other place" with them.

Meanwhile the scientific method develops and develops and develops and gets
better and better and better and does not depend on a single individual for
it's dynamic impetus.

Give me objectivity and scientific method every time.

Richard

-----Original Message-----
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Chris
Hargens
Sent: Monday, October 03, 2005 3:00 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Color Management without instruments (T vs PR )

"Subjectivity", "personalized instincts" -- terms that need some 
unpacking to foster productive discussion rather than pointless 
argument. At any rate, Clayton isn't advocating a methodless, purely 
intuitive approach to printing. His website article on printing BW with 
the 2400 provides a step-by-step method that can be duplicated and 
passed on. 

Chris Hargens

---
[This E-mail has been scanned for viruses but it is your responsibility 
to maintain up to date anti virus software on the device that you are
currently using to read this email. ]

You mean all the bad practices based on the users prejudices and what they
do well generally get bypassed by technological developments and eventually
disappear.

Richard

-----Original Message-----
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Wendel
White
Sent: Monday, October 03, 2005 8:43 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Color Management without instruments (T vs PR
)

> People who use subjectivity as a de-facto means to produce anything cannot
> pass the personalized instincts used on to anybody else.

Actually they can, it's called apprenticeship. There is a long tradition of
this model in the arts as well as in medicine and many other fields.

Wendel



---
[This E-mail has been scanned for viruses but it is your responsibility 
to maintain up to date anti virus software on the device that you are
currently using to read this email. ]

The industry goes for more color control with instruments. The 
last are getting less expensive and the software is more often 
included, cheaper and easier to work with. Microsoft's new CM 
for Vista is a sign of that. A good example is Colorbase for 
the x800-2400 Epson models. Calibration in a free package now 
available for spectrometer owners.

http://esupport.epson-europe.com/FAQListing.aspx?lng=en-GB&data=7222067128DC3302CFB925C628144285A82DC87441AA07BD3A5B0770B7DA4391&T=209

http://esupport.epson-europe.com/FileDownload.aspx?lng=en-GB&ID=25134&data=339AB9D58EEB9A0F7DAF33F87C49D33AF4523029F67BC5183B04CDE6F1D4FBFC

                    --
           Ernst Dinkla


www.pigment-print.com
(         unvollendet         )

> You mean all the bad practices based on the users prejudices and what they
> do well generally get bypassed by technological developments and eventually
> disappear.
> 
> Richard

Richard,

For me subjectivity is not the same as arbitrary and it may be that we have
different notions of the merits of subjective knowledge. Subjectivity can
(and should) be a very high form of intellectual reasoning, a means of
transcending the limits raw data, gaining real understanding and thereby
producing results that are art.

Certainly we all know that if you are ill and visit two different physicians
and they both review the same data, one of them might be able to "see beyond
the numbers" to recommend a better course of action--using subjective skills
to assess the situation. The same is true for printing - I want both skills
because neither is of much value without the other.

Wendel

As a physician and an artist - I couldn't agree more
fully with Wendel. Technique or feeling?  Instruments
or observation?  Science or art? Intellect or emotion.
 Objectivity or subjectivity?  YES -all.


Ansel Adams was heavily involved with the Zone System.
 Edward Weston didn't use a light meter.  Some from
the "decisive moment" school used the  maxim "f8 and
be there."  In my opinion all of these have made great
art.  Is one right and the others wrong?  I have my
personal preferences and if you are moved by my work -
you might be interested in how I did it - if not,
probably not.  For other's art and craft I have always
been much more interested in why they did it, rather
than how.  But of, course' on a technical forum such
as this I am most interested in how to best translate
my own vision. And of such want to learn what others
know = regardless of how they leared it. Techne is BTW
a word from ancient Greek and includes all of
"know-how" and not just instrumentation.

As a newbie in some ways and an oldie in others (as I
suspect we all are) I want to hear all that any of us
has to offer from their knowledge and/or experience.
And I enjoy the intelligent and/or heartfelt questions
that urge us all to examine ourselves and grow in our
craft.  

My only caveat is that I do not appreciate the
character attacks and personal insults that have been
thrown by a few of us.  Let's all  share what we know
and love and let the rest of us "take what we can use
and leave the rest".

Michael J. Vendrell, MD

--- Wendel White <wendel@...> wrote:

> > You mean all the bad practices based on the users
> prejudices and what they
> > do well generally get bypassed by technological
> developments and eventually
> > disappear.
> > 
> > Richard
> 
> Richard,
> 
> For me subjectivity is not the same as arbitrary and
> it may be that we have
> different notions of the merits of subjective
> knowledge. Subjectivity can
> (and should) be a very high form of intellectual
> reasoning, a means of
> transcending the limits raw data, gaining real
> understanding and thereby
> producing results that are art.
> 
> Certainly we all know that if you are ill and visit
> two different physicians
> and they both review the same data, one of them
> might be able to "see beyond
> the numbers" to recommend a better course of
> action--using subjective skills
> to assess the situation. The same is true for
> printing - I want both skills
> because neither is of much value without the other.
> 
> Wendel
> 
> 
> 



		
__________________________________ 
Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 
http://mail.yahoo.com

Your talking experience my man and that also applies to both approaches.

Experience is long term related and is arbitrary, it includes interpretation
and misinterpretation and therefore is not predictable and not transferable
and takes a long time to obtain.

You are talking judgment here my man, arbitrary judgment which is the
standard stock-in-trade of the subjectivists.

I would therefore suggest that you are probably talking about the most
subjective issue of the lot and it's the most volatile and unpredictable
judgment of the lot.....ART.

I'm not, I'm talking about measurable and scientifically definable QUALITY.

Of course you have yet to bring up the greatest red herring of them  all
that goes under the handle of "Talent". I mean to say you can get away with
any argument if you describe someone as talented, because it then becomes
necessary for the opposition to prove a lack of talent and that is just pure
subjectivity.

My position remains intact I believe.

That suggests it's check mate on you and the Olympic garland for me.


NEXT!...... Bring 'em all on and I'll take them down one by one, especially
so if they come from the America's, a land of "here today and gone tomorrow"
and "Johny-come-lately's"......oh and I left out "carpetbaggers" or should
that be "carpetbuggers"?

Richard

-----Original Message-----
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Wendel
White
Sent: Monday, October 03, 2005 12:09 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Color Management without instruments (T vs PR
)

> You mean all the bad practices based on the users prejudices and what they
> do well generally get bypassed by technological developments and
eventually
> disappear.
> 
> Richard

Richard,

For me subjectivity is not the same as arbitrary and it may be that we have
different notions of the merits of subjective knowledge. Subjectivity can
(and should) be a very high form of intellectual reasoning, a means of
transcending the limits raw data, gaining real understanding and thereby
producing results that are art.

Certainly we all know that if you are ill and visit two different physicians
and they both review the same data, one of them might be able to "see beyond
the numbers" to recommend a better course of action--using subjective skills
to assess the situation. The same is true for printing - I want both skills
because neither is of much value without the other.

Wendel





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-My position remains intact I believe.

-That suggests it's check mate on you and the Olympic garland for me.


-NEXT!...... Bring 'em all on and I'll take them down one by one, especially
-so if they come from the America's, a land of "here today and gone 
tomorrow"
-and "Johny-come-lately's"......oh and I left out "carpetbaggers" or should
-that be "carpetbuggers"?

-Richard


Enough already ! Get a life.

Go out and photograph something.

By the way, my zoom is bigger than your zoom.

Gary

-----Original Message-----

From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gary
Brown
Sent: Monday, October 03, 2005 3:09 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Color Management without instruments (T vs PR 

Go out and photograph something.
--------------------------------

The technology is not advanced enough to do that squire. I'm waiting for the
full frame DSLR with a 32Mp CMOS chip.

Then you can stuff your Zoom right where it belongs because I will be
shooting wide - and not of the mark let me tell you.

I'll bet you still shoot on film

Richard

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Ernst,

I downloaded the 2400 version (OS X) from the UK site, but it won't  
run with the US print driver I have installed for the 2400.  Seems to  
be only for the European printers.

Carl

On Oct 3, 2005, at 7:05 AM, Ernst Dinkla wrote:

> The industry goes for more color control with instruments. The
> last are getting less expensive and the software is more often
> included, cheaper and easier to work with. Microsoft's new CM
> for Vista is a sign of that. A good example is Colorbase for
> the x800-2400 Epson models. Calibration in a free package now
> available for spectrometer owners.
>
> http://esupport.epson-europe.com/FAQListing.aspx?lng=en- 
> GB&data=7222067128DC3302CFB925C628144285A82DC87441AA07BD3A5B0770B7DA43 
> 91&T=209
>
> http://esupport.epson-europe.com/FileDownload.aspx?lng=en- 
> GB&ID=25134&data=339AB9D58EEB9A0F7DAF33F87C49D33AF4523029F67BC5183B04C 
> DE6F1D4FBFC
>
>                     --
>            Ernst Dinkla
>
>
> www.pigment-print.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Carl Schofield wrote:
> Ernst,
> 
> I downloaded the 2400 version (OS X) from the UK site, but it won't  
> run with the US print driver I have installed for the 2400.  Seems to  
> be only for the European printers.
> 
> Carl

Strange, another case of US color guru's recommendations not 
to add a new feature to US printers ? I can not believe that 
this time. The Japanese code for the supported printers is 
aboard so it is distributed there. Obscure languages like 
Dutch and Portuguese + Korean, Chinese (incl Taiwan) supported 
and no US distribution ?  Is this a political issue :-)


                    --
           Ernst Dinkla


www.pigment-print.com
(         unvollendet         )

It's also on the USA site

Richard

-----Original Message-----
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Carl
Schofield
Sent: Monday, October 03, 2005 3:43 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Color Management without instruments (T vs PR
)

Ernst,

I downloaded the 2400 version (OS X) from the UK site, but it won't  
run with the US print driver I have installed for the 2400.  Seems to  
be only for the European printers.

Carl


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Michael's is exactly my view. 

Ansel didn't have densitometers in his world for a long time. And he
went heavily digital in the end, devoting himself to the
then-primative science of scanning. His best work was, IMO,
lithographic. He obsessed on a very narrow range of experience, along
his life's path.   

Weston lived among artists and poets of all sorts, had a rich social
(heh!) life and (IMO) expressed far more than did Ansel (or far more
that was of interest to me!).  

Some say Ansel was equal to Weston. I don't buy that, preferring
Weston's eros (his "eros" wasn't restricted to nudes), but many prefer
Ansel's near total lack of eros, his astonishment and reverence for
gigantic phenomena. 

Seemingly, Ansel expressed one side of the brain...Weston the other.

The implications for the digital workflow strategies that we
individually choose seem obvious.
 
 



 

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Michael Vendrell
<mjvendrell2@y...> wrote:

> As a physician and an artist - I couldn't agree more
> fully with Wendel. Technique or feeling?  Instruments
> or observation?  Science or art? Intellect or emotion.
>  Objectivity or subjectivity?  YES -all.
> 
> 
> Ansel Adams was heavily involved with the Zone System.
>  Edward Weston didn't use a light meter.  Some from
> the "decisive moment" school used the  maxim "f8 and
> be there."  In my opinion all of these have made great
> art.  Is one right and the others wrong?  I have my
> personal preferences and if you are moved by my work -
> you might be interested in how I did it - if not,
> probably not.  For other's art and craft I have always
> been much more interested in why they did it, rather
> than how.  But of, course' on a technical forum such
> as this I am most interested in how to best translate
> my own vision. And of such want to learn what others
> know = regardless of how they leared it. Techne is BTW
> a word from ancient Greek and includes all of
> "know-how" and not just instrumentation.
> 
> As a newbie in some ways and an oldie in others (as I
> suspect we all are) I want to hear all that any of us
> has to offer from their knowledge and/or experience.
> And I enjoy the intelligent and/or heartfelt questions
> that urge us all to examine ourselves and grow in our
> craft.  
> 
> My only caveat is that I do not appreciate the
> character attacks and personal insults that have been
> thrown by a few of us.  Let's all  share what we know
> and love and let the rest of us "take what we can use
> and leave the rest".
> 
> Michael J. Vendrell, MD
> 
> --- Wendel White <wendel@b...> wrote:
> 
> > > You mean all the bad practices based on the users
> > prejudices and what they
> > > do well generally get bypassed by technological
> > developments and eventually
> > > disappear.
> > > 
> > > Richard
> > 
> > Richard,
> > 
> > For me subjectivity is not the same as arbitrary and
> > it may be that we have
> > different notions of the merits of subjective
> > knowledge. Subjectivity can
> > (and should) be a very high form of intellectual
> > reasoning, a means of
> > transcending the limits raw data, gaining real
> > understanding and thereby
> > producing results that are art.
> > 
> > Certainly we all know that if you are ill and visit
> > two different physicians
> > and they both review the same data, one of them
> > might be able to "see beyond
> > the numbers" to recommend a better course of
> > action--using subjective skills
> > to assess the situation. The same is true for
> > printing - I want both skills
> > because neither is of much value without the other.
> > 
> > Wendel
> > 
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> 		
> __________________________________ 
> Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 
> http://mail.yahoo.com

Carl

Not sure that you will get much from it versus a custom colour profile.  It
is designed to realign the printer driver LUTs to normalise output.  But you
still need to do the exercise for each Epson paper, ie each LUT.  Unless you
are trying to standardise things such that multiple machines can use the
same profiles (rather than trying to store a different profile set for each
machine) it is unlikely to be advantageous.  The only real exception is if
the LUTs are so far out-of-whack with the output that the CMM and custom
profile are being over-extended.  At any rate, it's a colour profile
workflow option/solution and not very helpful for B&W.

Steve

> From: Carl Schofield <scho@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2005 10:43:12 -0400
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Color Management without instruments (T vs PR )
> 
> Ernst,
> 
> I downloaded the 2400 version (OS X) from the UK site, but it won't
> run with the US print driver I have installed for the 2400.  Seems to
> be only for the European printers.
> 
> Carl

Ernst...interesting website..I wish I read Dutch! Is your atelier a
digital art print shop?   



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Ernst Dinkla
<E.Dinkla@c...> wrote:
> Carl Schofield wrote:
> > Ernst,
> > 
> > I downloaded the 2400 version (OS X) from the UK site, but it won't  
> > run with the US print driver I have installed for the 2400.  Seems
to  

> > be only for the European printers.
> > 
> > Carl
> 
> Strange, another case of US color guru's recommendations not 
> to add a new feature to US printers ? I can not believe that 
> this time. The Japanese code for the supported printers is 
> aboard so it is distributed there. Obscure languages like 
> Dutch and Portuguese + Korean, Chinese (incl Taiwan) supported 
> and no US distribution ?  Is this a political issue :-)
> 
> 
>                     --
>            Ernst Dinkla
> 
> 
> www.pigment-print.com
> (         unvollendet         )

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale 
<stevekale@b...> wrote:
> Carl
> 
> Not sure that you will get much from it versus a custom colour 
profile.  It
> is designed to realign the printer driver LUTs to normalise 
output.  But you
> still need to do the exercise for each Epson paper, ie each LUT.  
Unless you
> are trying to standardise things such that multiple machines can 
use the
> same profiles (rather than trying to store a different profile set 
for each
> machine) it is unlikely to be advantageous.  The only real 
exception is if
> the LUTs are so far out-of-whack with the output that the CMM and 
custom
> profile are being over-extended.  At any rate, it's a colour profile
> workflow option/solution and not very helpful for B&W.
> 
> Steve

It should be linearizing the printer to each paper, and that should 
also extend to the ABW printing. It should also allow you to get a 
profile once, and then just keep after the linearization to allow 
that profile to continue working as the printer changes.

Looks like the Windows version will not work if you don't have the 
correct drivers loaded too.

Steve,

Not so sure about your pessimism. The Epson profiles are made for them by 
X-rite, and are probably made with equipment and expertise that are not 
available to most of us. So calibrating our printers so that they make best 
use of those top-quality Epson profiles means that we might get far better 
results than trying to make decent custom profiles ourselves with far less 
expertise and probably lesser equipment and software.

Agree with you that it doesn't do anything for B&W if you are using the AB&W 
option. Whether it would improve B&W in color mode (for those wanting to use 
color and B&W in a print) remains to be seen.

Bob Frost.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Steve Kale" <stevekale@...>

Not sure that you will get much from it versus a custom colour profile.  It
is designed to realign the printer driver LUTs to normalise output.  But you
still need to do the exercise for each Epson paper, ie each LUT.  Unless you
are trying to standardise things such that multiple machines can use the
same profiles (rather than trying to store a different profile set for each
machine) it is unlikely to be advantageous.  The only real exception is if
the LUTs are so far out-of-whack with the output that the CMM and custom
profile are being over-extended.  At any rate, it's a colour profile
workflow option/solution and not very helpful for B&W.

Greg,

> and that should also extend to the ABW printing.

It doesn't; Epson says it only works in color mode.

> It should also allow you to get a
> profile once, and then just keep after the linearization to allow
> that profile to continue working as the printer changes.

It does; Epson lists it as one advantage of using Colorbase.

I've never understood why America needs different drivers to Europe, other 
than the fact that you use funny paper sizes.

Bob Frost.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Greg" <dfaprinting@...>

> From: Bob Frost
>
> Not so sure about your pessimism. The Epson profiles are made for them by
> X-rite ...

When I use ColorThink to look inside the "SP2000 Prem.Luster 2880.icc" file,
for instance, the Creation Details says that the profile creation software
is "LOGO". I thought that was GretagMacbeth, since their display calibration
loader is called "Logo Calibration Loader". Am I wrong about this?

--

Ciao,               Paul D. DeRocco
Paul                mailto:pderocco@...

I don't believe anyone of us is claiming the
scientific method doesn't work. Clearly it does within
its limitations. But it does have its limits and
boundaries as any Philosophy of Science will freely
admit. (Check-out David Hume for example.)  As a
scientist myself, who applies science to human beings
and to art, I can testify that in addition to science
- empericism (learning from experience w/o the formal
scientific method), subjectivity, and even mysticism
are frequently ALSO essential.  To use a cliche we
shouldn't "throw the baby out with the bathwater."...

Michael J. Vendrell, MD

--- Richard Corbett <richard@...-bulldog.com>
wrote:

> One is not talking method alone but rather results
> from a particular method
> or set of procedures.
> 
> It is unlikely that anyone else can exactly
> duplicate his results.
> 
> On the other hand using science it becomes possible,
> once taught, to
> generally speaking, exactly duplicate results, and
> time after time after
> time.
> 
> What is more the scientific method is what gives the
> inkjet man the tools to
> do the job in the first place.
> 
> Science is progressive and recordable and can be
> used to define a repeatable
> standard.
> 
> The subjectivist is a law unto him/herself and once
> he/she shuffles off this
> mortal coil, the real know-how goes to the "other
> place" with them.
> 
> Meanwhile the scientific method develops and
> develops and develops and gets
> better and better and better and does not depend on
> a single individual for
> it's dynamic impetus.
> 
> Give me objectivity and scientific method every
> time.
> 
> Richard
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
>
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com]
> On Behalf Of Chris
> Hargens
> Sent: Monday, October 03, 2005 3:00 AM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Color Management without
> instruments (T vs PR )
> 
> "Subjectivity", "personalized instincts" -- terms
> that need some 
> unpacking to foster productive discussion rather
> than pointless 
> argument. At any rate, Clayton isn't advocating a
> methodless, purely 
> intuitive approach to printing. His website article
> on printing BW with 
> the 2400 provides a step-by-step method that can be
> duplicated and 
> passed on. 
> 
> Chris Hargens
> 
> ---
> [This E-mail has been scanned for viruses but it is
> your responsibility 
> to maintain up to date anti virus software on the
> device that you are
> currently using to read this email. ]
> 
> 



		
__________________________________ 
Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 
http://mail.yahoo.com

Maybe - assuming the process of LUT adjustment and a standard profile is net
net better than simply a good custom profile.  But alas the key issue for
this group is that it is IMO unlikely to really assist B&W.

> From: Bob Frost <bob@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2005 18:33:48 +0100
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Color Management without instruments (T vs PR )
> 
> Steve,
> 
> Not so sure about your pessimism. The Epson profiles are made for them by
> X-rite, and are probably made with equipment and expertise that are not
> available to most of us. So calibrating our printers so that they make best
> use of those top-quality Epson profiles means that we might get far better
> results than trying to make decent custom profiles ourselves with far less
> expertise and probably lesser equipment and software.
> 
> Agree with you that it doesn't do anything for B&W if you are using the AB&W
> option. Whether it would improve B&W in color mode (for those wanting to use
> color and B&W in a print) remains to be seen.
> 
> Bob Frost.
>

Especially when those funny paper sizes are in each driver...

> From: Bob Frost <bob@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2005 18:38:24 +0100
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Color Management without instruments (T vs PR )
> 
> Greg,
> 
>> and that should also extend to the ABW printing.
> 
> It doesn't; Epson says it only works in color mode.
> 
>> It should also allow you to get a
>> profile once, and then just keep after the linearization to allow
>> that profile to continue working as the printer changes.
> 
> It does; Epson lists it as one advantage of using Colorbase.
> 
> I've never understood why America needs different drivers to Europe, other
> than the fact that you use funny paper sizes.
> 
> Bob Frost.
> 
>

This whole art, subjective vs analytical discussion is IMHO way off topic.
This forum is by definition about the technical process of printing.  It is
not about the image.  It is not about "art" because it doesn't define the
image content.  A participant on this forum could well be interested in,
say, printing highly technical B&W images for scientific purposes.  Are we
trying to limit this B&W printing list to just "artists"?  People can decide
what and how many technical skills to apply based on their knowledge and,
unfortunately, their budget.  But having got the image they want the
rendition of that vision on paper is a technical skill.  Restraints in
technical ability or technology itself may impose limits which in turn
require subjective compromise but make no mistake that the boundary of what
is possible once the image is perceived in the mind's eye is defined by
technical factors.  Expand your technical skills and obtain greater access
to technical assistance (be it human or mechanical) and you will undoubtedly
expand your ability to render your artistic talent on paper.  I simply do
not believe that technical skill crowds out existing artistic talent.
Rather it gives it the platform for expression.

Digital Black and White: THE PRINT

> From: Greg <dfaprinting@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Mon, 03 Oct 2005 16:53:28 -0000
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Color Management without instruments (T vs PR )
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale
> <stevekale@b...> wrote:
>> Carl
>> 
>> Not sure that you will get much from it versus a custom colour
> profile.  It
>> is designed to realign the printer driver LUTs to normalise
> output.  But you
>> still need to do the exercise for each Epson paper, ie each LUT.
> Unless you
>> are trying to standardise things such that multiple machines can
> use the
>> same profiles (rather than trying to store a different profile set
> for each
>> machine) it is unlikely to be advantageous.  The only real
> exception is if
>> the LUTs are so far out-of-whack with the output that the CMM and
> custom
>> profile are being over-extended.  At any rate, it's a colour profile
>> workflow option/solution and not very helpful for B&W.
>> 
>> Steve
> 
> It should be linearizing the printer to each paper, and that should
> also extend to the ABW printing.

Nope.  But luckily thanks to Roy we can ICC profile Epson Adv B&W output and
use colour management technology at long last.

>It should also allow you to get a
> profile once, and then just keep after the linearization to allow
> that profile to continue working as the printer changes.

Same as re-profiling the printer over time.  Good practice although they are
actually quite stable devices.

It is my understanding from the documentation that the LUT containing 
the linearization is not even used unless "Color" is selected in the 
driver.  So I'm not sure it is part of the paper LUTS.

> It should be linearizing the printer to each paper, and that should 
> also extend to the ABW printing. It should also allow you to get a 
> profile once, and then just keep after the linearization to allow 
> that profile to continue working as the printer changes.
> 
> Looks like the Windows version will not work if you don't have the 
> correct drivers loaded too.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul D. DeRocco" 
<pderocco@i...> wrote:
> > From: Bob Frost
> >
> > Not so sure about your pessimism. The Epson profiles are made for 
them by
> > X-rite ...
> 
> When I use ColorThink to look inside the "SP2000 Prem.Luster 
2880.icc" file,
> for instance, the Creation Details says that the profile creation 
software
> is "LOGO". I thought that was GretagMacbeth, since their display 
calibration
> loader is called "Logo Calibration Loader". Am I wrong about this?
> 


You are correct, but it isn't the same as the copyright (etc.) that 
gets left behind from the Match  (i1 photo) software either.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Frost" 
<bob@f...> wrote:
> Greg,
> 
> > and that should also extend to the ABW printing.
> 
> It doesn't; Epson says it only works in color mode.
> 

Hard to believe that they wouldn't use the linearized settings to run 
the ABW mode too, that's just stupid. I guess the easiest way to find 
out for certain is to make a linearization that is intentionally wrong 
and apply it.

I hope all the US/Canada users will scream until this is released. 
Since I don't own one of these printers, it's of passing interest to me.

And why no printable PDF for the user manual! That always makes me 
angry.

Way to go Tyler.
There is a nice intermediate to the two approaches as well I think.
Knowledge often leads to the feel and instinct part.

Regards
Duane


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Tyler Boley" 
<tyler@t...> wrote:
> Can I interject a quick note? This is frequently characterized as 
a luddite vrs techhead issue. 
> It's far from that, those are not even two extremes of a straight 
line issue. In fact, amongst a 
> universe of possible approaches, those would probably be the least 
reasonable two.
> I tend towards attempting to understand the proccesses I use, and 
have discovered there are 
> tools available to furthur that. So I would generally advise more 
learning. On the other hand 
> I've known people who instinctively make beautiful work with 
little technical knowledge.
> I just want to assure people who may be inclined to pursue more 
tecnical knowledge that it is 
> not a dead end or an end in itself, but is very useful, even 
fascinating to some, and can help 
> gain control toward more beautiful prints. You can utilize as much 
or little as you like.
> There is no shame in being technically adept, just as there is 
none in proceding on feel and 
> instinct alone if that's your make-up.
> Tyler

-----Original Message-----

From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Bob Frost
Sent: Monday, October 03, 2005 6:38 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Color Management without instruments (T vs PR 

I've never understood why America needs different drivers to Europe, other 
than the fact that you use funny paper sizes.

That is the reason

Richard


---
[This E-mail has been scanned for viruses but it is your responsibility 
to maintain up to date anti virus software on the device that you are
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--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale 
<stevekale@b...> wrote:
> >It should also allow you to get a
> > profile once, and then just keep after the linearization to allow
> > that profile to continue working as the printer changes.
> 
> Same as re-profiling the printer over time.  Good practice although 
they are
> actually quite stable devices.

This comes from the old school where it took hours to measure a good 
size profile target, and minutes to measure linearization targets. But 
the big advantage would still be no more over inking a paper! That is 
something that can not be delt with (at least not well) at the RGB 
profile level. At least I assume you have some minor control over ink 
limits with colorbase, I haven't read that far yet. As it stands, those 
using third party papers and inks stand to gain the most from this 
utility.

-----Original Message-----

From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Michael
Vendrell
Sent: Monday, October 03, 2005 6:49 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Re: Color Management without instruments (T vs PR 

To use a cliche we
shouldn't "throw the baby out with the bathwater."...

I'd throw out the little bugger, and then get a new more up to date baby.

Richard



---
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Yes the biggest thing Epson is missing is greyscale colour management for
ABW.  (Although there are some practical limitations on its introduction.
It is impossible to profile every possible combination of ABW settings.) But
for $50 it is now available elsewhere. You don't have to have a perfectly
linear device and you don't want linear L* output.

> From: Greg <dfaprinting@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Mon, 03 Oct 2005 18:49:47 -0000
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: [Digital BW] Epson Colorbase miscellany
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Frost"
> <bob@f...> wrote:
>> Greg,
>> 
>>> and that should also extend to the ABW printing.
>> 
>> It doesn't; Epson says it only works in color mode.
>> 
> 
> Hard to believe that they wouldn't use the linearized settings to run
> the ABW mode too, that's just stupid. I guess the easiest way to find
> out for certain is to make a linearization that is intentionally wrong
> and apply it.
> 
> I hope all the US/Canada users will scream until this is released.
> Since I don't own one of these printers, it's of passing interest to me.
> 
> And why no printable PDF for the user manual! That always makes me
> angry.

-----Original Message-----

From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Steve
Kale
Sent: Monday, October 03, 2005 7:19 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Color Management without instruments 

This whole art, subjective vs analytical discussion is IMHO way off topic.
This forum is by definition about the technical process of printing. 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

The art is in Photoshop. The printer is just a mangle.

Richard
 

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--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Michael Vendrell
<mjvendrell2@y...> wrote:
> I don't believe anyone of us is claiming the
> scientific method doesn't work. Clearly it does within
> its limitations. But it does have its limits and
> boundaries as any Philosophy of Science will freely
> admit. (Check-out David Hume for example.) 
 
and as another scientist who escapes into photography....

.... this is getting very silly, is it not?  The limitations of the
scientific method are not, even remotely, related to what one can do
with grey inks on paper!  Every detail of that is amenable to
scientific method if the artist chooses (pays?) to make it so.  If the
artist chooses otherwise FINE!  (One could calibrate every batch of
ink, every sheet of paper, ad nauseam.)

Personally I trust more in high-level education and encouraging
freedom of expression, than in tutelage and apprenticeship, especially
at times where the art is changing rapidly.  

Educators try to help in a constructive fashion.

Ken

> The art is in Photoshop. The printer is just a mangle.

Any way you like, artists.  The art is where you make it.
Photoshop is just numbers....
Ken

I think this where your argument breaks down.  There is no RIP/driver
control - they are not offering a RIP.  It merely colour corrects output
back to a "standard" so that the standard profile works well with the
standard driver. You can either tweak the LUTs so the old profile works or
get a new profile.  Personally I see little hassle difference in printing
and measuring a 264 patch test chart vs the IT9.18 target.

It won't help users of third party inks and paper at all.

> From: Greg <dfaprinting@...>


> At least I assume you have some minor control over ink
> limits with colorbase, I haven't read that far yet. As it stands, those
> using third party papers and inks stand to gain the most from this
> utility.

If it is on the USA site it is well hidden.  I don't see it on the  
USA Epson support site.

On Oct 3, 2005, at 12:19 PM, Richard Corbett wrote:

> It's also on the USA site
>
> Richard
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of  
> Carl
> Schofield
> Sent: Monday, October 03, 2005 3:43 PM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Color Management without instruments  
> (T vs PR
> )
>
> Ernst,
>
> I downloaded the 2400 version (OS X) from the UK site, but it won't
> run with the US print driver I have installed for the 2400.  Seems to
> be only for the European printers.
>
> Carl


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

As the song goes....

"In olden days a glimpse of stocking
...was looked on as something shocking
...now heaven knows
....anything goes"

At least in your world it does.

That's the trouble with photographers.
They take a product designed specifically in order to suit a particular need
and then decides to use it in a non standard way....then complains when it
fails to cooperate with them.

Richard

-----Original Message-----
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
kenstrain2000
Sent: Monday, October 03, 2005 8:18 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Color Management without instruments (T vs PR )

> The art is in Photoshop. The printer is just a mangle.

Any way you like, artists.  The art is where you make it.
Photoshop is just numbers....
Ken







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Steve Kale wrote:

> 
> It won't help users of third party inks and paper at all.

Don't think so. Many third party inks and papers are used with 
the Epson driver + custom profiles. Once you have found 
suitable paper settings in the driver and made the custom 
profile you could keep that new custom profile and calibrate 
(in my view it is more linearise) the printer from time to 
time with the Epson paper the settings were intended for. A 
few sheets at most. Inks like MIS Pro are probably so close in 
specs that the calibration will work. It may even compensate 
the slight difference in densities between the two like it 
would compensate differences between Epson ink batches.

I have been speculating a bit so far, now I rather wait for 
how it can be used (or hacked).


                    --
           Ernst Dinkla


www.pigment-print.com
(         unvollendet         )

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "Richard Corbett" <richard@...-bulldog.com>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, October 03, 2005 7:17 AM
Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Re: Color Management without instruments (T vs 
PR )




-----Original Message-----
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gary
Brown

Go out and photograph something.
--------------------------------

<-The technology is not advanced enough to do that squire. I'm waiting for 
the
<-full frame DSLR with a 32Mp CMOS chip.

Don't call me squire, I work for a living.

<-Then you can stuff your Zoom right where it belongs because I will be
<-shooting wide - and not of the mark let me tell you.

<-I'll bet you still shoot on film

Right, that's why I recently started a thread asking about the differences 
of converting Raw images to 8 or 16 bit
tiffs. Frankly, I don't know what your problem is, I just know it doesn't 
belong here. In this forum people rarely agree on everything (or anything 
for that matter). That said, most people on this forum can defend completely 
opposing points of view and at the same time show respect for the other. You 
seem to get you nose out of joint every time someone disagrees with you.

I would be curious as to what you do for a living, and the type of images 
you take.

Gary

www.pbase.com/garyallenbrown
baffin@...






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the membership.
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BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT 
YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND 
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Paul & Greg,

Not correct, I'm afraid. The Epson profiles for the 2000 might be made by GM 
(I don't have one to check), but my Epson R2400 profiles supplied by Epson 
are made by X-rite - it says so on each one!

Bob Frost.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Greg" <dfaprinting@...>
>
> When I use ColorThink to look inside the "SP2000 Prem.Luster
2880.icc" file,
> for instance, the Creation Details says that the profile creation
software
> is "LOGO". I thought that was GretagMacbeth, since their display
calibration
> loader is called "Logo Calibration Loader". Am I wrong about this?
>


You are correct, but it isn't the same as the copyright (etc.) that
gets left behind from the Match  (i1 photo) software either.

Many people 'mangle' their pictures in Photoshop!

Bob Frost.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Richard Corbett" <richard@...-bulldog.com>

The art is in Photoshop. The printer is just a mangle.

On Mon, Oct 03, 2005 at 12:07:03AM -0000, Tyler Boley wrote:
> Can I interject a quick note? This is frequently characterized as a
> luddite vrs techhead issue.

Which is funny, because one reason I asked about profiling "lite"
is that I'm a systems administrator by trade, and I don't want
to turn my photography hobby into a "busman's holiday".

-- 
 Ben Rosengart                                          ben@...
       "Young people should be seen and not heard, because they're
        good-looking but not too bright.  We're pretty bright now,
        but we're ugly." -- Grace Slick on the '60s youth movement

But what are the advantages over a simple custom profile?  This question is
at the heart of the matter.

> From: Ernst Dinkla <E.Dinkla@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Mon, 03 Oct 2005 22:47:28 +0200
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] more colorbase misc.
> 
> Steve Kale wrote:
> 
>> 
>> It won't help users of third party inks and paper at all.
> 
> Don't think so. Many third party inks and papers are used with
> the Epson driver + custom profiles. Once you have found
> suitable paper settings in the driver and made the custom
> profile you could keep that new custom profile and calibrate
> (in my view it is more linearise) the printer from time to
> time with the Epson paper the settings were intended for. A
> few sheets at most. Inks like MIS Pro are probably so close in
> specs that the calibration will work. It may even compensate
> the slight difference in densities between the two like it
> would compensate differences between Epson ink batches.
> 
> I have been speculating a bit so far, now I rather wait for
> how it can be used (or hacked).

Correction to my correction!!

The R2400 profiles installed with my UK printer were made by Seiko Epson. 
The better R2400 profiles which I use (that have their resolutions 
described) were downloaded from the USA Epson site and are made by X-rite. 
These don't seem to be available on UK site. Similarly with R1800 profiles. 
My old 2100 profiles were made by Logo.

Bob Frost.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bob Frost" <bob@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, October 03, 2005 10:13 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Color Management without instruments (T vs 
PR )


Paul & Greg,

Not correct, I'm afraid. The Epson profiles for the 2000 might be made by GM
(I don't have one to check), but my Epson R2400 profiles supplied by Epson
are made by X-rite - it says so on each one!

It is actually the other way around, America uses funny paper sizes. Most of 
the world is on a metric system and has been since before you could count, 
or talk, or spell for that matter. If you wish to do the math, America is 
about 5-6 per cent of the world's population, and you think that because the 
rest of the world is different they are "funny"??? Get a reality check boy.

As to the issue of different drivers, I don't know for certain, but I would 
be williing to bet it stems from many of the same reasons that DVD systems 
are region encoded, very little to do with "rights management", but probably 
more to do with many, many, many middlemen in line at the pig's trough.

Paul Aparycki

p.s. I am a Canuckian, and we use the same FUNNY sizes as Americans . . . I 
could never understand why we both are so backward.

>I've never understood why America needs different drivers to Europe, other
>than the fact that you use funny paper sizes.

>Bob Frost.

Oooooooh . . . I like you!!!!!

I have brought up two of my own, plus one from my present partner, and two 
from my previous marriage. Sometimes I have thought of giving up commercial 
photography to become a tightrope walker (far more soothing and relaxing), 
or in the case of my years with my children, the odd (frequent????) 
occaision has given me cause to change my profession to that of an 
axe-murderer . . .

Paul Aparycki

>To use a cliche we
>shouldn't "throw the baby out with the bathwater."...

>I'd throw out the little bugger, and then get a new more up to date baby.

>Richard

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale 
<stevekale@b...> wrote:
> But what are the advantages over a simple custom profile?  This 
question is
> at the heart of the matter.
> 

Better linearity generally gives a better profile. There is only so 
much a profile can describe.

-----Original Message-----

From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gary
Brown
Sent: Monday, October 03, 2005 10:01 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Color Management without instruments (T vs PR 

I would be curious as to what you do for a living, and the type of images 
you take.

Curiosity will not help you. 
I would try another approach if I were you.

Richard

---
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to maintain up to date anti virus software on the device that you are
currently using to read this email. ]

Amen,

It's getting rather sickening to read some of the posts here.

And, yes - I'm learning what posters not to read.

Grow up, guys!

Live and let live!

Respect that we are all different and diversity is a good thing - we 
can ALL learn from each other - if it's done in a respectful fashion.

Christer

			Christer, AKA Christer Rosewell
"It's the artist's job to accomplish two things-to stir the emotions of 
the viewer
	  and to lay bare the soul of his subject." Jousuf Karsh
      		  Member EP (Editorial Photographers)
			  http://www.ChristerArt.com
		  	   3.8 million visitors to date..


On Oct 3, 2005, at 11:18 AM, 
DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com wrote:

> My only caveat is that I do not appreciate the
> character attacks and personal insults that have been
> thrown by a few of us.  Let's all  share what we know
> and love and let the rest of us "take what we can use
> and leave the rest".
>
> Michael J. Vendrell, MD

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

None, unless they are doing ink linerization in the process.
 
Tom Baker


Steve Kale <stevekale@...> wrote:
But what are the advantages over a simple custom profile? This question is
at the heart of the matter.


> From: Ernst Dinkla 
> Reply-To: 
> Date: Mon, 03 Oct 2005 22:47:28 +0200
> To: 
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] more colorbase misc.
> 
> Steve Kale wrote:
> 
>> 
>> It won't help users of third party inks and paper at all.
> 
> Don't think so. Many third party inks and papers are used with
> the Epson driver + custom profiles. Once you have found
> suitable paper settings in the driver and made the custom
> profile you could keep that new custom profile and calibrate
> (in my view it is more linearise) the printer from time to
> time with the Epson paper the settings were intended for. A
> few sheets at most. Inks like MIS Pro are probably so close in
> specs that the calibration will work. It may even compensate
> the slight difference in densities between the two like it
> would compensate differences between Epson ink batches.
> 
> I have been speculating a bit so far, now I rather wait for
> how it can be used (or hacked).





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BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE “OWNER” AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE “OWNER” AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

<I would be curious as to what you do for a living, and the type of images 
<you take.

<Curiosity will not help you. 
<I would try another approach if I were you.

<Richard

I guess wedding photographer, now I understand.

Gary

> From: Paul Aparycki
>
> It is actually the other way around, America uses funny paper
> sizes. Most of
> the world is on a metric system and has been since before you
> could count,
> or talk, or spell for that matter. If you wish to do the math, America is
> about 5-6 per cent of the world's population, and you think that
> because the
> rest of the world is different they are "funny"??? Get a reality
> check boy.

But those square-root-of-two-to-one aspect ratio sizes are really ugly in
portrait orientation. No classical painter ever painted a portrait with that
aspect ratio. 8.5x11 may not be perfect, but it's closer to the traditional
4:3 ratio.

--

Ciao,               Paul D. DeRocco
Paul                mailto:pderocco@...

-----Original Message-----

From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Christer
Rosewelll
Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2005 2:33 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Re: Re: Color Management without instruments (T vs
PR )

Amen,

It's getting rather sickening to read some of the posts here.

And, yes - I'm learning what posters not to read.

Grow up, guys!

Live and let live!
---------------------

Yes indeed - so try learning your own lesson
----------------------------------------------

Respect that we are all different and diversity is a good thing - we 
can ALL learn from each other - if it's done in a respectful fashion.
---------------------------------------------------------------------

According to your views as expressed above, diversity is not a good thing
because as sure as eggs is eggs, you want conformity to a common standard of
behavior and that, old fruit, does not marry to diversity.

Christer


Ah! The arrival of the white bearded moralist - no doubt a member of the 
"Pontificators-are-us brigade".
It's odd how you people seem to assume that individuals on the net should
all behave in the same way.

Quite unlike real life of course, where altercation is the norm and
belligerent disagreement rules supreme.

Too much time spent in Sunday school if you ask me.

Richard

---
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I wish...
Richard

-----Original Message-----
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gary
Brown
Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2005 5:06 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Color Management without instruments (T vs PR
)

<I would be curious as to what you do for a living, and the type of images 
<you take.

<Curiosity will not help you. 
<I would try another approach if I were you.

<Richard

I guess wedding photographer, now I understand.

Gary



Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
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GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  "OWNER" AND
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ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY
THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER
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Yes but from what I can see Colorbase does not linearise the printer.

> From: Greg <dfaprinting@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Mon, 03 Oct 2005 22:19:08 -0000
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] more colorbase misc.
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale
> <stevekale@b...> wrote:
>> But what are the advantages over a simple custom profile?  This
> question is
>> at the heart of the matter.
>> 
> 
> Better linearity generally gives a better profile. There is only so
> much a profile can describe.
>

Agreed. This is a production house simplification module not a single-user
output enhancement.

> From: Tom Baker <tbaker1328@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2005 20:52:13 -0700 (PDT)
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] more colorbase misc.
> 
> None, unless they are doing ink linerization in the process.
>  
> Tom Baker
>

Intrigued by this new Epson offering, decided to have a go at the 
calibration process. Software straight forward to use BUT what really 
pi....me off is that you have to print the target on a sheet of A3/B?. 
When the target was printed, it was only slightly bigger than A4. The 
target could easily be trimmed to fit on a sheet of A4 but no you have 
to use A3 and waste alot of paper. Why ???? 

Hmm not sure about this utility yet. 

Peter.

Just trim the target in PS.  I haven't tried Colorbase but it shouldn't
matter from where you print the target.

> From: bwbonkers <PeterDLevis@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Tue, 04 Oct 2005 08:46:53 -0000
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: more colorbase misc.
> 
> Intrigued by this new Epson offering, decided to have a go at the
> calibration process. Software straight forward to use BUT what really
> pi....me off is that you have to print the target on a sheet of A3/B?.
> When the target was printed, it was only slightly bigger than A4. The
> target could easily be trimmed to fit on a sheet of A4 but no you have
> to use A3 and waste alot of paper. Why ????
> 
> Hmm not sure about this utility yet.
> 
> Peter.

Paul,

That is what I thought I was saying! I'm fully metricated (in the UK). Sorry 
for the misunderstanding.

Bob Frost.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Paul Aparycki" <tawow@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, October 03, 2005 10:59 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Color Management without instruments (T vs 
PR )


It is actually the other way around, America uses funny paper sizes. Most of
the world is on a metric system and has been since before you could count,
or talk, or spell for that matter.








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bwbonkers wrote:
> Intrigued by this new Epson offering, decided to have a go at the 
> calibration process. Software straight forward to use BUT what really 
> pi....me off is that you have to print the target on a sheet of A3/B?. 
> When the target was printed, it was only slightly bigger than A4. The 
> target could easily be trimmed to fit on a sheet of A4 but no you have 
> to use A3 and waste alot of paper. Why ???? 
> 
> Hmm not sure about this utility yet. 
> 
> Peter.

Go into the files and downsize the target with nearest 
neighbour in PS.

Measure carefully and there shouldn't be a difference.

How the nozzle strips and other patches fit is another thing 
though.

                    --
           Ernst Dinkla


www.pigment-print.com
(         unvollendet         )

Steve,

Well, as I said in an earlier post, the Epson profiles (whether made by 
Logo, Seiko Epson, or X-rite) are probably made with top-of-the-line gear 
and software than most normal people can afford. I've used a Colormouse and 
and i1Pro to make printer profiles, and tried to improve them with 
DoctorPro, but it is not an easy matter to get a good profile, and the 
'experts' say that one profile that is good at everything is an 
impossibility. Too many assumptions and subjective decisions have to be made 
in the profile-making software.

So I suspect that having an expert at Logo or X-rite making and tweaking a 
profile to meet Epson's requirements, is probably going to be better than 
you or I can do. So if we can simply recalibrate our printers to match 
theirs, life should be simpler and better.

"The proof of the pudding is in the eating", so we'll see!

Bob Frost.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Steve Kale" <stevekale@...>


But what are the advantages over a simple custom profile?  This question is
at the heart of the matter.

Peter,

> Why ???? 

Epson sell paper as well as printers!!!

Bob Frost.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "bwbonkers" <PeterDLevis@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2005 9:46 AM
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: more colorbase misc.


Intrigued by this new Epson offering, decided to have a go at the 
calibration process. Software straight forward to use BUT what really 
pi....me off is that you have to print the target on a sheet of A3/B?. 
When the target was printed, it was only slightly bigger than A4. The 
target could easily be trimmed to fit on a sheet of A4 but no you have 
to use A3 and waste alot of paper. 
Hmm not sure about this utility yet.

Steve Kale wrote:
> Yes but from what I can see Colorbase does not linearise the printer.

Steve,

The targets I see in the Colorbase 4800 setup show 264 
patches, all density ramps. It still could be that they are
measured against non linear tables and the ends to fixed Dmax 
numbers but at first sight they look very much like
linearisations targets. The targets and the tables are 
arranged per paper/resolution setting file, the numbers 
probably chosen in a way that they are fitting the paper specs 
best. 33 is a lot of gradation patches I have to admit.
What makes you think that Colorbase is not linearising the 
printer ?  Different step rates doesn't say much, the only
thing that could indicate a different approach is setting the 
patch densities against the internal tables and see a non 
linearity.

The way to control it is sending a common CcMmYKkk 
linearisation target after calibration through Colorbase with 
the same paper/resolution settings. The calibration has to be 
active then and that is the hard hack. Using Photoshop and the 
printerdriver with CM off and no printer profile will still 
have the CMYK>RGB>CcMmYKkk conversion in the process.

And even when it is not a strict linearisation it wouldn't 
make much difference for custom profile creation as that has 
worked before as well. Any odd method of giving consistency 
would work. It could even be a perceptual curve and profiling 
wouldn't suffer :-)

                    --
           Ernst Dinkla


www.pigment-print.com
(         unvollendet         )

OK maybe I'm being a bit thick here but I cannot find the target tiff. 
I downloaded the R2400 version for the MAC. Any ideas.

Peter.

Except that you are using an Epson module and an Eye-One (or similar) to
adjust a machine which will then be combined with the Epson profile.  It's
only as good as the weakest link.  It's only as good as the software and
device used to "recalibrate".  Remember a printer's LUTs are the same thing,
in effect, as an ICC profile.  I'll take a lot of convincing that this is
better than a custom GM profile from, say, Eye-One Photo but I am prepared
to listen to what colour experts such as Bruce Fraser have to say. I still
contend that this is a workflow improvement solution (a reduction in the
number of ICC profiles flying around) rather than a net benefit in colour
fidelity.  Does anyone know what bit depth the LUTs are being rewritten at?

(BTW this discussion would likely be better held on the Colorsync list in
which the experts do tend to participate.)

> From: Bob Frost <bob@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 10:21:24 +0100
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] more colorbase misc.
> 
> Steve,
> 
> Well, as I said in an earlier post, the Epson profiles (whether made by
> Logo, Seiko Epson, or X-rite) are probably made with top-of-the-line gear
> and software than most normal people can afford. I've used a Colormouse and
> and i1Pro to make printer profiles, and tried to improve them with
> DoctorPro, but it is not an easy matter to get a good profile, and the
> 'experts' say that one profile that is good at everything is an
> impossibility. Too many assumptions and subjective decisions have to be made
> in the profile-making software.
> 
> So I suspect that having an expert at Logo or X-rite making and tweaking a
> profile to meet Epson's requirements, is probably going to be better than
> you or I can do. So if we can simply recalibrate our printers to match
> theirs, life should be simpler and better.
> 
> "The proof of the pudding is in the eating", so we'll see!
> 
> Bob Frost.
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Steve Kale" <stevekale@...>
> 
> 
> But what are the advantages over a simple custom profile?  This question is
> at the heart of the matter.

I need to take a closer look.  I agree that from both a hypothetical and
practical (depending on how bad the linearity is) perspective a more linear
set of LUTs makes ICC profiling easier and more effective.  I also need to
look more closely at the inbuilt menu-driven colour calibration feature of
the 4800.  I glanced over this the other day while trying to figure out the
roll paper features.  I've not gone back to it.

But again we are drifting a long way from B&W if you adopt the premise that
a colour ICC profile managed workflow doesn't yet work well for B&W.  I do
think this conversation is better had on another list lest we bore everyone.
;-)

> From: Ernst Dinkla <E.Dinkla@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Tue, 04 Oct 2005 11:41:14 +0200
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] more colorbase misc.
> 
> Steve Kale wrote:
>> Yes but from what I can see Colorbase does not linearise the printer.
> 
> Steve,
> 
> The targets I see in the Colorbase 4800 setup show 264
> patches, all density ramps. It still could be that they are
> measured against non linear tables and the ends to fixed Dmax
> numbers but at first sight they look very much like
> linearisations targets. The targets and the tables are
> arranged per paper/resolution setting file, the numbers
> probably chosen in a way that they are fitting the paper specs
> best. 33 is a lot of gradation patches I have to admit.
> What makes you think that Colorbase is not linearising the
> printer ?  Different step rates doesn't say much, the only
> thing that could indicate a different approach is setting the
> patch densities against the internal tables and see a non
> linearity.
> 
> The way to control it is sending a common CcMmYKkk
> linearisation target after calibration through Colorbase with
> the same paper/resolution settings. The calibration has to be
> active then and that is the hard hack. Using Photoshop and the
> printerdriver with CM off and no printer profile will still
> have the CMYK>RGB>CcMmYKkk conversion in the process.
> 
> And even when it is not a strict linearisation it wouldn't
> make much difference for custom profile creation as that has
> worked before as well. Any odd method of giving consistency
> would work. It could even be a perceptual curve and profiling
> wouldn't suffer :-)
> 
>                     --
>            Ernst Dinkla

> OK maybe I'm being a bit thick here but I cannot find the target tiff. 
> I downloaded the R2400 version for the MAC. Any ideas.


Peter,

On a PC the dedicated tiffs are in each of the files in this map:

C:\Program Files\EPSON 
ColorBase\PlugIns\Spectrophotometer\EPCBi1\Resources\EPSON 
Stylus Photo R2400

The nozzle pattern data is here:

C:\Program Files\EPSON ColorBase\PlugIns\HTMW\SPR2400HT\Resources

                    --
           Ernst Dinkla


www.pigment-print.com
(         unvollendet         )

Of course as soon as you use a non-Epson paper any linearity adjustment goes
out the window anyway...Pity we can't add entirely new LUTs for new
papers...Not that Epson will ever allow that!  I wonder what percentage of
participants on this forum use Epson paper as their primary paper of
choice...

> From: Steve Kale <stevekale@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Tue, 04 Oct 2005 11:47:11 +0100
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Conversation: [Digital BW] more colorbase misc.
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] more colorbase misc.
> 
> I need to take a closer look.  I agree that from both a hypothetical and
> practical (depending on how bad the linearity is) perspective a more linear
> set of LUTs makes ICC profiling easier and more effective.  I also need to
> look more closely at the inbuilt menu-driven colour calibration feature of
> the 4800.  I glanced over this the other day while trying to figure out the
> roll paper features.  I've not gone back to it.

I'll would hope the Epson profiles were made with way more patches than the
IT9.18 chart.  Colorbase allows you to calibrate your printer to work with
those Epson profiles; that is useful.
If you create a profile for third party paper using a large target (2500+
patches) Colorbase will keep the printer in calibration without redoing the
large targets; that is useful.
It remains to be seen, but the gamut may not be chopped off as much as the
typical difference between color controls and no-color-adjustment when
creating a custom profile; that would be useful.
But, as you say, Roy's tools make Colorbase essentially useless for BW.

Best regards,
John Moody

-----Original Message-----
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Steve Kale
Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2005 4:22 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] more colorbase misc.

Agreed. This is a production house simplification module not a single-user
output enhancement.





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thanks Ernst. Unfortunatley the MAC files are different and the 
target tiff seems to be embedded into the program. However I'll 
download the PC version and get the file.

Peter.

> On a PC the dedicated tiffs are in each of the files in this map:
> 
> C:\Program Files\EPSON 
> ColorBase\PlugIns\Spectrophotometer\EPCBi1\Resources\EPSON 
> Stylus Photo R2400
> 
> The nozzle pattern data is here:
> 
> C:\Program Files\EPSON ColorBase\PlugIns\HTMW\SPR2400HT\Resources
> 
>                     --
>            Ernst Dinkla
> 
> 
> www.pigment-print.com
> (         unvollendet         )

> From: John Moody <moodymz3@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 07:05:14 -0400
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: RE: [Digital BW] more colorbase misc.
> 
> I'll would hope the Epson profiles were made with way more patches than the
> IT9.18 chart.  

Maybe but I suspect not.  Even PM5 uses the same number of patches as the
Eye-One Photo for printers.  918 of them.

(Check them out.  BTW I have rejigged my Eye-One Photo to use the PM5
display patches for display calibration.  I have not been able to do the
same for the printer profiling but I suspect the actual profiling software
for the EyeOne and PM5 is the same or extremely similar. EyeOne simply
doesn't have the other modules, eg editing, yet.)




>Colorbase allows you to calibrate your printer to work with
> those Epson profiles; that is useful.
> If you create a profile for third party paper using a large target (2500+
> patches) Colorbase will keep the printer in calibration without redoing the
> large targets; that is useful.

Only insofar as the calibration is accurate - back to your patch count
thing.  But I agree that 264 is a reasonable number of patches, 33 per ink,
for linearisation although I use 51 for QTR.

> It remains to be seen, but the gamut may not be chopped off as much as the
> typical difference between color controls and no-color-adjustment when
> creating a custom profile; that would be useful.
> But, as you say, Roy's tools make Colorbase essentially useless for BW.


I can't get the 4800 Mac version to work.  But I took a look at the
calibration chart in GM's Colorlab and agree that it is a linearisation test
chart rather than an RGB test chart.  I can't yet use the software.  IS it
printed from Colorbase, ie is Colorbase the driver, and is operating in true
CcMmYKklk fashion?  Would seem so from the chart...


I'm going to flip this conversation back to the WF list ... Even if it is
painfully slow to post on.

Peter,

Could it be that Epson decided how many samples of each patch they wanted 
the spectro to take, and then set the size of the patch accordingly? Smaller 
patches means fewer samples = less accuracy. You should take 5 seconds to 
read a strip according to Epson. If you start doing things differently, then 
you may get different results to what Epson got with their 'standard' 
printer that you are trying to calibrate to. Same with drying time; they 
suggest 30 mins and even provide you with a countdown to measurement. Change 
that and you may get different results that are not comparable to theirs.

This is real science, not subjective art!

Bob Frost.

Bob Frost.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "bwbonkers" <PeterDLevis@...>


Intrigued by this new Epson offering, decided to have a go at the
calibration process. Software straight forward to use BUT what really
pi....me off is that you have to print the target on a sheet of A3/B?.
When the target was printed, it was only slightly bigger than A4. The
target could easily be trimmed to fit on a sheet of A4 but no you have
to use A3 and waste alot of paper. Why ????

Hmm not sure about this utility yet.

My 4800 download doesn't even have a tiff file (maybe that is the missing
file related to the error message I get).  You can create a tiff by opening
the .txt ref in Colorlab though.

> From: bwbonkers <PeterDLevis@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Tue, 04 Oct 2005 11:18:27 -0000
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: more colorbase misc. - printing target
> 
> Thanks Ernst. Unfortunatley the MAC files are different and the
> target tiff seems to be embedded into the program. However I'll
> download the PC version and get the file.
> 
> Peter.
>> On a PC the dedicated tiffs are in each of the files in this map:
>> 
>> C:\Program Files\EPSON
>> ColorBase\PlugIns\Spectrophotometer\EPCBi1\Resources\EPSON
>> Stylus Photo R2400
>> 
>> The nozzle pattern data is here:
>> 
>> C:\Program Files\EPSON ColorBase\PlugIns\HTMW\SPR2400HT\Resources
>> 
>>                     --
>>            Ernst Dinkla
>> 
>>

Richard, you definitely deserve the "Olympic garland". Can I use this? It's
a perfect definition of how anything of real value has ever been produced.

Wendel

> 
> As the song goes....
> 
> "In olden days a glimpse of stocking
> ...was looked on as something shocking
> ...now heaven knows
> ....anything goes"
> 
> At least in your world it does.
> 
> That's the trouble with photographers.
> They take a product designed specifically in order to suit a particular need
> and then decides to use it in a non standard way....then complains when it
> fails to cooperate with them.
> 
> Richard

Why do I feel so uneasy about this posting?

In the words of the song......

"The finger of suspicion points at you".

Richard

-----Original Message-----
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Wendel
White
Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2005 1:45 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Color Management without instruments (T vs PR
)

Richard, you definitely deserve the "Olympic garland". Can I use this? It's
a perfect definition of how anything of real value has ever been produced.

Wendel

> 
> As the song goes....
> 
> "In olden days a glimpse of stocking
> ...was looked on as something shocking
> ...now heaven knows
> ....anything goes"
> 
> At least in your world it does.
> 
> That's the trouble with photographers.
> They take a product designed specifically in order to suit a particular
need
> and then decides to use it in a non standard way....then complains when it
> fails to cooperate with them.
> 
> Richard





Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
they are often being updated.

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If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.

Please follow these basic guidelines:
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
membership without notice.
- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from
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BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE OWNER AND
MODERATORS OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU
FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY
DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS,
GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  OWNER AND
MODERATORS OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE
POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY
TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR
ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY
THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER
MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
 
Yahoo! Groups Links



 


---
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---
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Bob
Agree but all I wanted to do was trim the excessive green/grey border 
around the target so that it would fit on a single sheet of A4. The 
coloured patches would remain unaltered. The PC target files appear 
to be different to the MAC version. My R2400 MAC target is Testchart 
G1BW000011A. The PC files all end 'B' and look different.

Peter.

> Peter,
> 
> Could it be that Epson decided how many samples of each patch they 
wanted 
> the spectro to take, and then set the size of the patch 
accordingly? Smaller 
> patches means fewer samples = less accuracy. You should take 5 
seconds to 
> read a strip according to Epson. If you start doing things 
differently, then 
> you may get different results to what Epson got with 
their 'standard' 
> printer that you are trying to calibrate to. Same with drying time; 
they 
> suggest 30 mins and even provide you with a countdown to 
measurement. Change 
> that and you may get different results that are not comparable to 
theirs.

> 
> This is real science, not subjective art!
> 
> Bob Frost.

-Richard,  I and several others have no delusion of changing your 
mind mind, nor do I care to do so.  When all one has is a hammer - 
the whole world looks like a nail. I'm only appealing to you (and one 
or two others) to stop your offensive behavior and language directed 
towards the rest of us.  Thanking you in advance, I am

Truly and sincerely yours,  Michael vendrell

-- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Corbett" 
<richard@r...> wrote:
> Why do I feel so uneasy about this posting?
> 
> In the words of the song......
> 
> "The finger of suspicion points at you".
> 
> Richard
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Wendel
> White
> Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2005 1:45 PM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Color Management without instruments 
(T vs PR
> )
> 
> Richard, you definitely deserve the "Olympic garland". Can I use 
this? It's
> a perfect definition of how anything of real value has ever been 
produced.
> 
> Wendel
> 
> > 
> > As the song goes....
> > 
> > "In olden days a glimpse of stocking
> > ...was looked on as something shocking
> > ...now heaven knows
> > ....anything goes"
> > 
> > At least in your world it does.
> > 
> > That's the trouble with photographers.
> > They take a product designed specifically in order to suit a 
particular
> need
> > and then decides to use it in a non standard way....then 
complains when it
> > fails to cooperate with them.
> > 
> > Richard
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
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> printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be 
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You may still have to print from the utility (contrary to my earlier post)
and hence a separate edited tiff might not work.  I can't see if the tiff is
printed by Colorbase as a CMYK file (a la QTR Calibration) or as an RGB file
through the driver.  To be doing linearisation it needs to be doing the
former.  A straight colour scale with just C/c, M/m, Y or K/k/kk per patch
respectively.

> From: bwbonkers <PeterDLevis@...>

>But those square-root-of-two-to-one aspect ratio sizes are really ugly in
>portrait orientation. No classical painter ever painted a portrait with 
>that
>aspect ratio. 8.5x11 may not be perfect, but it's closer to the traditional
>4:3 ratio.

--

>Ciao,               Paul D. DeRocco
>Paul                mailto:pderocco@...


You just haven't met enough people with long skinny faces ;-)

Actually I find the idea of a "standard" paper format to be especially 
puzzling now with the various sensor sizes cropping up in cameras. I know 
that the majority tend towards 4:3 (the Canon at 3:2 being an exception).

The last time I spent any extended period in a darkroom most I what I was 
printing was cut from rolls . . . so the standard size was whatever fit that 
day! A nice and easy solution . . . of sorts.

all the best

Paul Aparycki

Oooops, excuse ME for the misunderstanding . . .

Paul Aparycki

>Paul,

>That is what I thought I was saying! I'm fully metricated (in the UK). 
>Sorry
>for the misunderstanding.

>Bob Frost.

Steve Kale wrote:
> You may still have to print from the utility (contrary to my earlier post)
> and hence a separate edited tiff might not work.  I can't see if the tiff is
> printed by Colorbase as a CMYK file (a la QTR Calibration) or as an RGB file
> through the driver.  To be doing linearisation it needs to be doing the
> former.  A straight colour scale with just C/c, M/m, Y or K/k/kk per patch
> respectively.

Target is CMYK, 8 rows of patches, 33 patches per row = 264. 
The GRAD file next to it has 8 lists that say C,LC. M, LM etc. 
It will print the target with Colorbase. The split to the 8 
channels will be based on the CMK percentages in the target, Y 
isn't split.

an excerpt from the Colorsync list:

Well, a simple look at the reference data lets me draw the 
conclusion that
this is more a linearisation tool than a calibration tool.

The patches in there look like cyan, magenta, yellow and grey 
patches.
Just not enough colors to build a lookup-table.

Rolf

-----------------------------------------------------
Multitools
Dipl.-Ing. Rolf Gierling


                    --
           Ernst Dinkla


www.pigment-print.com
(         unvollendet         )

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Ernst Dinkla 
<E.Dinkla@c...> wrote:
> Target is CMYK, 8 rows of patches, 33 patches per row = 264. 
> The GRAD file next to it has 8 lists that say C,LC. M, LM etc. 
> It will print the target with Colorbase. The split to the 8 
> channels will be based on the CMK percentages in the target, Y 
> isn't split.
> 
> an excerpt from the Colorsync list:
> 
> Well, a simple look at the reference data lets me draw the 
> conclusion that
> this is more a linearisation tool than a calibration tool.
> 
> The patches in there look like cyan, magenta, yellow and grey 
> patches.
> Just not enough colors to build a lookup-table.
> 
> Rolf
> 


Yes it absolutely is CMYK, and needs to be printed from the 
application, just like doing the same thing for any RIP. Pushing it 
through the RGB driver would simply muck up the process.

And yes what it is doing is setting the linearity for that printer, 
the same thing that Epson does at the factory, and the same thing 
that HP does for the DJ130 (and others) on the printer. HP calls it 
calibration, most RIPs call it linearization (and clipping). Clipping 
limits the inks at the point where density no longer increases (very 
general). In the RIP I use, the linearization process builds a LUT 
between what is asked for, and what is printed. Remember a LUT is 
simply a table of input values to output amounts to achieve that 
value. It doesn't have to be a 3D matrix like a profile, because you 
are only dealing with one color channel at a time.

I don't see how changing the size would effect the measured values if 
you do it the way Ernst has suggested. For the i1 spectro, you need 
at least 8mm high by 8mm wide patches. Wider patches let you scan at 
a higher speed (more reads per second). You might also be able to 
remake the targets using Coloport and the ref. files, but since I 
don't own one of these printers, I can't check it. Cropping the un-
needed borders, or resampling the image is probably the best way.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale 
<stevekale@b...> wrote:
> Of course as soon as you use a non-Epson paper any linearity 
adjustment goes
> out the window anyway...Pity we can't add entirely new LUTs for new
> papers...Not that Epson will ever allow that!  I wonder what 
percentage of
> participants on this forum use Epson paper as their primary paper of
> choice...
> 
> 

I said this yesterday and was told I was wrong. Linearity most 
certainly changes with different papers, and different inks. As I said 
before, the greatest value will be for people that do not use Epson 
inks or Epson papers.

If you want different linearity for different papers, just save the 
file, and load it when you switch to that paper. Look under the remote 
measuring portion of the help file. HP does the same thing with the 
DJ130, it saves the LUT as an XML file that you can upload to the 
printer when you are using that paper.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale 
<stevekale@b...> wrote:
> to listen to what colour experts such as Bruce Fraser have to say. 

If you take a look at what Mr. Fraser wrote in his book, you'll see 
that he says linearizing a printer is very important! I'd quote the 
page, but the book is at home, and I'm not there.

Having proper linearization is the foundation of getting good prints, 
after you get far enough away from linear, a profile can only bring 
you back so far. That's why one of the first things you do when 
working with a RIP is linearize the ink output. It is so 
fundementally important that Epson decided to check each x800 before 
it ships (or so they claim), and why HP built this measurement onto 
their newest flagship printers (dj130 and others). It isn't to 
provide printer to printer matches, it is to provide the highest 
quality print possible from that printer/ink/paper combination. The 
ability to do this has been a long time coming, and one reason why so 
many professional printers have purchased a RIP in the past, since 
that was the only way to accomplish this adjustment.

Well, I've said more on this topic than I really care too. I should 
have simply thanked Ernst (again) for tipping me to another useful 
tool and gone away quietly. My opinion, this Colorbase tool is 
absolutely invaluable for the artist that wants to best output 
his/her printer can give with non Epson inks and papers. Epson may 
have intended this for Epson inks and papers, but everyone can now 
benefit from their wisdom. And Colorbase is not intended to replace a 
custom profile, only to make that profile more accurate.

Offense my dear man is in the eye of the beholder and I would suggest you
obtain some digital optrex at the earliest possible moment.

Exactly what do you mean by the words "the rest of us". Do prey reassure me
that you have been delegated to speak on behalf of the entire news group;
otherwise I might just suggest that you are claiming rather a lot for
yourself.

Might I also point out that there is a moderator who is perfectly able to
supervise this group should he feel the need so to do, so then unless you
are the moderator might I suggest you refrain from directing any more of
your mail towards my person.

You might of course show an awareness of the substance of my messages prior
to your, probably undelegated, earlier intervention.

If that were the case then carry on, but if the best you can do is play the
role of the shimmering inguine then kindly stop all further communication
with me.

Richard

-----Original Message-----
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
mjvendrell2
Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2005 3:00 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Color Management without instruments (T vs PR )

-Richard,  I and several others have no delusion of changing your 
mind mind, nor do I care to do so.  When all one has is a hammer - 
the whole world looks like a nail. I'm only appealing to you (and one 
or two others) to stop your offensive behavior and language directed 
towards the rest of us.  Thanking you in advance, I am

Truly and sincerely yours,  Michael vendrell


---
[This E-mail has been scanned for viruses but it is your responsibility 
to maintain up to date anti virus software on the device that you are
currently using to read this email. ]

Are you absolutely certain that this patch actually does linearize and
nothing else at all?

Richard

-----Original Message-----
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Greg
Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2005 4:14 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] more colorbase misc.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale 
<stevekale@b...> wrote:
> to listen to what colour experts such as Bruce Fraser have to say. 

If you take a look at what Mr. Fraser wrote in his book, you'll see 
that he says linearizing a printer is very important! I'd quote the 
page, but the book is at home, and I'm not there.

Having proper linearization is the foundation of getting good prints, 
after you get far enough away from linear, a profile can only bring 
you back so far. That's why one of the first things you do when 
working with a RIP is linearize the ink output. It is so 
fundementally important that Epson decided to check each x800 before 
it ships (or so they claim), and why HP built this measurement onto 
their newest flagship printers (dj130 and others). It isn't to 
provide printer to printer matches, it is to provide the highest 
quality print possible from that printer/ink/paper combination. The 
ability to do this has been a long time coming, and one reason why so 
many professional printers have purchased a RIP in the past, since 
that was the only way to accomplish this adjustment.

Well, I've said more on this topic than I really care too. I should 
have simply thanked Ernst (again) for tipping me to another useful 
tool and gone away quietly. My opinion, this Colorbase tool is 
absolutely invaluable for the artist that wants to best output 
his/her printer can give with non Epson inks and papers. Epson may 
have intended this for Epson inks and papers, but everyone can now 
benefit from their wisdom. And Colorbase is not intended to replace a 
custom profile, only to make that profile more accurate.





Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
they are often being updated.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
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Please follow these basic guidelines:
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
membership without notice.
- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from
the membership.
- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and
Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files section:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/

BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND
"MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU
FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY
DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS,
GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  "OWNER" AND
"MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE
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Yahoo! Groups Links



 


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Moderator, et al: I  have read virtually every one of your posts up 
to and including this one.  While I do not presume to speak for the 
entire group, I am at least the 4th one to request of you 
specifically to be respectful, and at least the 2nd one to notify you 
specifically that some of us, including me, find your tone and 
language offensive. 

I would appeal to the moderator to intervene if he agrees.

Michael J. Vendrell, MD

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Richard 
Corbett" <richard@r...> wrote:
> Offense my dear man is in the eye of the beholder and I would 
suggest you
> obtain some digital optrex at the earliest possible moment.
> 
> Exactly what do you mean by the words "the rest of us". Do prey 
reassure me
> that you have been delegated to speak on behalf of the entire news 
group;
> otherwise I might just suggest that you are claiming rather a lot 
for
> yourself.
> 
> Might I also point out that there is a moderator who is perfectly 
able to
> supervise this group should he feel the need so to do, so then 
unless you
> are the moderator might I suggest you refrain from directing any 
more of
> your mail towards my person.
> 
> You might of course show an awareness of the substance of my 
messages prior
> to your, probably undelegated, earlier intervention.
> 
> If that were the case then carry on, but if the best you can do is 
play the
> role of the shimmering inguine then kindly stop all further 
communication
> with me.
> 
> Richard
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
> mjvendrell2
> Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2005 3:00 PM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Color Management without instruments (T 
vs PR )
> 
> -Richard,  I and several others have no delusion of changing your 
> mind mind, nor do I care to do so.  When all one has is a hammer - 
> the whole world looks like a nail. I'm only appealing to you (and 
one 
> or two others) to stop your offensive behavior and language 
directed 
> towards the rest of us.  Thanking you in advance, I am
> 
> Truly and sincerely yours,  Michael vendrell
> 
> 
> ---
> [This E-mail has been scanned for viruses but it is your 
responsibility 
> to maintain up to date anti virus software on the device that you 
are
> currently using to read this email. ]

I can view the "target" by opening the .txt reference file in Colorlab and
see its patches.  (The 4800 Mac download is completely screwed up and
doesn't work.  Epson Support are on to it.)  As for Rolf, I have been
reading his posts and he seems a little confused (or is at least confusing).
See his latest. Greg/Ernst, I would agree from viewing the test chart that
it is not doing an RGB profile but rather (a form of) CMYK linearisation
which I would label part of "calibration" and not "profiling".  I don't
"get" Rolf's split of these.  (Pity they don't give us control over ink
limits as well !!) 

Arguably it is using 66 patches per colour (C, M, Y and K) with the scale
for 2 of them comprising two inks and 3 inks for K.  However, I do not know
if this is how the underlying CMYK driver thinks. 66 observations is quite a
number.

> From: Ernst Dinkla <E.Dinkla@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Tue, 04 Oct 2005 16:35:33 +0200
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: more colorbase misc. - printing target
> 
> Steve Kale wrote:
>> You may still have to print from the utility (contrary to my earlier post)
>> and hence a separate edited tiff might not work.  I can't see if the tiff is
>> printed by Colorbase as a CMYK file (a la QTR Calibration) or as an RGB file
>> through the driver.  To be doing linearisation it needs to be doing the
>> former.  A straight colour scale with just C/c, M/m, Y or K/k/kk per patch
>> respectively.
> 
> Target is CMYK, 8 rows of patches, 33 patches per row = 264.
> The GRAD file next to it has 8 lists that say C,LC. M, LM etc.
> It will print the target with Colorbase. The split to the 8
> channels will be based on the CMK percentages in the target, Y
> isn't split.
> 
> an excerpt from the Colorsync list:
> 
> Well, a simple look at the reference data lets me draw the
> conclusion that
> this is more a linearisation tool than a calibration tool.
> 
> The patches in there look like cyan, magenta, yellow and grey
> patches.
> Just not enough colors to build a lookup-table.
> 
> Rolf

Well I see your point and would correct my post of yesterday.  If it is
linearising the printer output this will benefit users of third party inks
and papers because it will ease the pressure that would otherwise exist on
their custom ICC profiles.  Can you add a paper/ink?  Or do you have to
kill/bastardise one of the Epson paper settings and couple it with a custom
profile?  Can you have a list of Colorbase settings that you can switch
around?  I take it from your final paragraph below that you can.

> From: Greg <dfaprinting@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Tue, 04 Oct 2005 14:56:09 -0000
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] more colorbase misc.
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale
> <stevekale@b...> wrote:
>> Of course as soon as you use a non-Epson paper any linearity
> adjustment goes
>> out the window anyway...Pity we can't add entirely new LUTs for new
>> papers...Not that Epson will ever allow that!  I wonder what
> percentage of
>> participants on this forum use Epson paper as their primary paper of
>> choice...
>> 
>> 
> 
> I said this yesterday and was told I was wrong. Linearity most
> certainly changes with different papers, and different inks. As I said
> before, the greatest value will be for people that do not use Epson
> inks or Epson papers.
> 
> If you want different linearity for different papers, just save the
> file, and load it when you switch to that paper. Look under the remote
> measuring portion of the help file.

Should this new Epson colorbase linearization dramaticly improve the
9800's ability to print more accurate cmyk proofs of files put
together by illustrators or designers for offset reproduction? In
other words, eliminate the need for a post script driver created for
that purpose?

John



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale
<stevekale@b...> wrote:
> I can view the "target" by opening the .txt reference file in
Colorlab and
> see its patches.  (The 4800 Mac download is completely screwed up and
> doesn't work.  Epson Support are on to it.)  As for Rolf, I have been
> reading his posts and he seems a little confused (or is at least
confusing).
> See his latest. Greg/Ernst, I would agree from viewing the test
chart that
> it is not doing an RGB profile but rather (a form of) CMYK linearisation
> which I would label part of "calibration" and not "profiling".  I don't
> "get" Rolf's split of these.  (Pity they don't give us control over ink
> limits as well !!) 
> 
> Arguably it is using 66 patches per colour (C, M, Y and K) with the
scale
> for 2 of them comprising two inks and 3 inks for K.  However, I do
not know
> if this is how the underlying CMYK driver thinks. 66 observations is
quite a
> number.
> 
> 
> > From: Ernst Dinkla <E.Dinkla@c...>
> > Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > Date: Tue, 04 Oct 2005 16:35:33 +0200
> > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: more colorbase misc. - printing target
> > 
> > Steve Kale wrote:
> >> You may still have to print from the utility (contrary to my
earlier post)
> >> and hence a separate edited tiff might not work.  I can't see if
the tiff is
> >> printed by Colorbase as a CMYK file (a la QTR Calibration) or as
an RGB file
> >> through the driver.  To be doing linearisation it needs to be
doing the
> >> former.  A straight colour scale with just C/c, M/m, Y or K/k/kk
per patch

> >> respectively.
> > 
> > Target is CMYK, 8 rows of patches, 33 patches per row = 264.
> > The GRAD file next to it has 8 lists that say C,LC. M, LM etc.
> > It will print the target with Colorbase. The split to the 8
> > channels will be based on the CMK percentages in the target, Y
> > isn't split.
> > 
> > an excerpt from the Colorsync list:
> > 
> > Well, a simple look at the reference data lets me draw the
> > conclusion that
> > this is more a linearisation tool than a calibration tool.
> > 
> > The patches in there look like cyan, magenta, yellow and grey
> > patches.
> > Just not enough colors to build a lookup-table.
> > 
> > Rolf

Yes. Yes.

A pity it won't be of much use to B&W as we all know the faults of the
colour driver with respect to B&W.  It's interesting or rather very
unfortunate that they did not provide a mechanism for linearising the AB&W
driver.  But I guess that this is arguably impossible because of the massive
permutations of settings introduced by the tint picker.

> From: Greg <dfaprinting@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Tue, 04 Oct 2005 15:13:37 -0000
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] more colorbase misc.
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale
> <stevekale@b...> wrote:
>> to listen to what colour experts such as Bruce Fraser have to say.
> 
> If you take a look at what Mr. Fraser wrote in his book, you'll see
> that he says linearizing a printer is very important! I'd quote the
> page, but the book is at home, and I'm not there.
> 
> Having proper linearization is the foundation of getting good prints,
> after you get far enough away from linear, a profile can only bring
> you back so far. That's why one of the first things you do when
> working with a RIP is linearize the ink output. It is so
> fundementally important that Epson decided to check each x800 before
> it ships (or so they claim), and why HP built this measurement onto
> their newest flagship printers (dj130 and others). It isn't to
> provide printer to printer matches, it is to provide the highest
> quality print possible from that printer/ink/paper combination. The
> ability to do this has been a long time coming, and one reason why so
> many professional printers have purchased a RIP in the past, since
> that was the only way to accomplish this adjustment.
> 
> Well, I've said more on this topic than I really care too. I should
> have simply thanked Ernst (again) for tipping me to another useful
> tool and gone away quietly. My opinion, this Colorbase tool is
> absolutely invaluable for the artist that wants to best output
> his/her printer can give with non Epson inks and papers. Epson may
> have intended this for Epson inks and papers, but everyone can now
> benefit from their wisdom. And Colorbase is not intended to replace a
> custom profile, only to make that profile more accurate.

I think this is the same 'Richard' (with a bit of a name change) that has caused problems on this and other forums in the past.  Unfortunately, never anything constuctive.  The delete key is the best solution.
 
Tom Baker

mjvendrell2 <mjvendrell2@...> wrote:
Moderator, et al: I have read virtually every one of your posts up 
to and including this one. While I do not presume to speak for the 
entire group, I am at least the 4th one to request of you 
specifically to be respectful, and at least the 2nd one to notify you 
specifically that some of us, including me, find your tone and 
language offensive. 

I would appeal to the moderator to intervene if he agrees.

Michael J. Vendrell, MD

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Richard 
Corbett" wrote:
> Offense my dear man is in the eye of the beholder and I would 
suggest you
> obtain some digital optrex at the earliest possible moment.
> 
> Exactly what do you mean by the words "the rest of us". Do prey 
reassure me
> that you have been delegated to speak on behalf of the entire news 
group;
> otherwise I might just suggest that you are claiming rather a lot 
for
> yourself.
> 
> Might I also point out that there is a moderator who is perfectly 
able to
> supervise this group should he feel the need so to do, so then 
unless you
> are the moderator might I suggest you refrain from directing any 
more of
> your mail towards my person.
> 
> You might of course show an awareness of the substance of my 
messages prior
> to your, probably undelegated, earlier intervention.
> 
> If that were the case then carry on, but if the best you can do is 
play the
> role of the shimmering inguine then kindly stop all further 
communication
> with me.
> 
> Richard
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
> mjvendrell2
> Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2005 3:00 PM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Color Management without instruments (T 
vs PR )
> 
> -Richard, I and several others have no delusion of changing your 
> mind mind, nor do I care to do so. When all one has is a hammer - 
> the whole world looks like a nail. I'm only appealing to you (and 
one 
> or two others) to stop your offensive behavior and language 
directed 
> towards the rest of us. Thanking you in advance, I am
> 
> Truly and sincerely yours, Michael vendrell
> 
> 
> ---
> [This E-mail has been scanned for viruses but it is your 
responsibility 
> to maintain up to date anti virus software on the device that you 
are
> currently using to read this email. ]





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If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page.

Please follow these basic guidelines:
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership without notice.
- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the membership.
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BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE “OWNER” AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE “OWNER” AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thanks Tom...very good advice.  Although i like to go through the 
posts in my e-mail at one time and merely skip to the next one in the 
list.  However, I keep encountering these unpleasant insults and i 
read too fast to quite get to the delete button before contaminating 
my experience.  This particular individual has attacked some of the 
group such as Clayton J. and Paul R. who have, at least for me and 
many others , been the most helpful.   I know Clayton and Paul are 
above taking the rantings of such a lunatic seriously (as I hope I 
am), but his conduct really does detract from what otherwise is a 
very enjoyable, informatiove, and thought provoking experience.   
Thanks again...
Michael

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Tom Baker 
<tbaker1328@s...> wrote:
> I think this is the same 'Richard' (with a bit of a name change) 
that has caused problems on this and other forums in the past.  
Unfortunately, never anything constuctive.  The delete key is the 
best solution.
>  
> Tom Baker
> 
> mjvendrell2 <mjvendrell2@y...> wrote:
> Moderator, et al: I have read virtually every one of your posts up 
> to and including this one. While I do not presume to speak for the 
> entire group, I am at least the 4th one to request of you 
> specifically to be respectful, and at least the 2nd one to notify 
you 
> specifically that some of us, including me, find your tone and 
> language offensive. 
> 
> I would appeal to the moderator to intervene if he agrees.
> 
> Michael J. Vendrell, MD
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Richard 
> Corbett" wrote:
> > Offense my dear man is in the eye of the beholder and I would 
> suggest you
> > obtain some digital optrex at the earliest possible moment.
> > 
> > Exactly what do you mean by the words "the rest of us". Do prey 
> reassure me
> > that you have been delegated to speak on behalf of the entire 
news 
> group;
> > otherwise I might just suggest that you are claiming rather a lot 
> for
> > yourself.
> > 
> > Might I also point out that there is a moderator who is perfectly 
> able to
> > supervise this group should he feel the need so to do, so then 
> unless you
> > are the moderator might I suggest you refrain from directing any 
> more of
> > your mail towards my person.
> > 
> > You might of course show an awareness of the substance of my 
> messages prior
> > to your, probably undelegated, earlier intervention.
> > 
> > If that were the case then carry on, but if the best you can do 
is 
> play the
> > role of the shimmering inguine then kindly stop all further 
> communication
> > with me.
> > 
> > Richard
> > 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> > [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
> > mjvendrell2
> > Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2005 3:00 PM
> > To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Color Management without instruments (T 
> vs PR )
> > 
> > -Richard, I and several others have no delusion of changing your 
> > mind mind, nor do I care to do so. When all one has is a hammer - 
> > the whole world looks like a nail. I'm only appealing to you (and 
> one 
> > or two others) to stop your offensive behavior and language 
> directed 
> > towards the rest of us. Thanking you in advance, I am
> > 
> > Truly and sincerely yours, Michael vendrell
> > 
> > 
> > ---
> > [This E-mail has been scanned for viruses but it is your 
> responsibility 
> > to maintain up to date anti virus software on the device that you 
> are
> > currently using to read this email. ]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
resources as they are often being updated.
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you 
wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by 
visiting this same page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages 
to keep them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or 
flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed 
from the membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital 
B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be 
removed from the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules 
and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the 
group Owner and Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" 
in the Files section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> 
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE 
PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT 
THE "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP 
SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, 
SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT 
LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER 
INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL 
BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF 
SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE 
THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR 
ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT 
OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) 
ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.

> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

If it is linerizing all of the inks it should be of use for the b&w, as well.  The linerizaiton is 'under' the profiles, color controls, etc.
 
Tom Baker

Steve Kale <stevekale@...> wrote:
Yes. Yes.

A pity it won't be of much use to B&W as we all know the faults of the
colour driver with respect to B&W. It's interesting or rather very
unfortunate that they did not provide a mechanism for linearising the AB&W
driver. But I guess that this is arguably impossible because of the massive
permutations of settings introduced by the tint picker.


> From: Greg 
> Reply-To: 
> Date: Tue, 04 Oct 2005 15:13:37 -0000
> To: 
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] more colorbase misc.
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale
> wrote:
>> to listen to what colour experts such as Bruce Fraser have to say.
> 
> If you take a look at what Mr. Fraser wrote in his book, you'll see
> that he says linearizing a printer is very important! I'd quote the
> page, but the book is at home, and I'm not there.
> 
> Having proper linearization is the foundation of getting good prints,
> after you get far enough away from linear, a profile can only bring
> you back so far. That's why one of the first things you do when
> working with a RIP is linearize the ink output. It is so
> fundementally important that Epson decided to check each x800 before
> it ships (or so they claim), and why HP built this measurement onto
> their newest flagship printers (dj130 and others). It isn't to
> provide printer to printer matches, it is to provide the highest
> quality print possible from that printer/ink/paper combination. The
> ability to do this has been a long time coming, and one reason why so
> many professional printers have purchased a RIP in the past, since
> that was the only way to accomplish this adjustment.
> 
> Well, I've said more on this topic than I really care too. I should
> have simply thanked Ernst (again) for tipping me to another useful
> tool and gone away quietly. My opinion, this Colorbase tool is
> absolutely invaluable for the artist that wants to best output
> his/her printer can give with non Epson inks and papers. Epson may
> have intended this for Epson inks and papers, but everyone can now
> benefit from their wisdom. And Colorbase is not intended to replace a
> custom profile, only to make that profile more accurate.





Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as they are often being updated.

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If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page.

Please follow these basic guidelines:
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership without notice.
- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the membership.
- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and Moderators. See “Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines” in the Files section:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/

BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE “OWNER” AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE “OWNER” AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.

Yahoo! Groups Links








[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Yep.  There's too much good stuff on the forum to let the little bit of trash that gets by the moderator spoil it.  Many bright contibutors, and many wanting to learn.
 
Tom Baker

mjvendrell2 <mjvendrell2@...> wrote:
Thanks Tom...very good advice. Although i like to go through the 
posts in my e-mail at one time and merely skip to the next one in the 
list. However, I keep encountering these unpleasant insults and i 
read too fast to quite get to the delete button before contaminating 
my experience. This particular individual has attacked some of the 
group such as Clayton J. and Paul R. who have, at least for me and 
many others , been the most helpful. I know Clayton and Paul are 
above taking the rantings of such a lunatic seriously (as I hope I 
am), but his conduct really does detract from what otherwise is a 
very enjoyable, informatiove, and thought provoking experience. 
Thanks again...
Michael



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

While Epson get their act together and actually make the 4800 Mac version
available, I would be interested if a PC user with a 4800 could post their
read data.  How linear is the average 4800 to begin with?

BTW here's a problem with assuming that it is doing a simple linearization
and ONLY that:  assuming it's doing just a simple linearization implies the
assumption that the printer which printed the Epson profiling charts was
perfectly linear. Perhaps it was and it is logical to assume that Epson
would make their reference machine as linear as possible.  But all we know
is that it adjusts your printer to be more like their printer.

When I speak to Epson UK Support again tomorrow I will try to get a little
more info.

Steve

"Thing's" is not the plural of "thing"

Richard - if you are wondering whether anyone besides Michael finds your
posts to be snide, insulting, and/or generally annoying, the answer is yes.

Richard - if you are wondering whether anyone besides Michael finds your
posts to be snide, insulting, and/or generally annoying, the answer is yes.

All this talk about colour ICC profiles made me want to take a look inside
the Epson 4800 profiles.  However, I can't for the life of me find them.
There aren't any on the Epson 4800 Mac site (that I can see) and none are
installed by the driver installation package.  What am I missing?  (Since I
do my own custom profiles I never noticed before.)

Prove it's 51% of the membership and I'll listen

Richard

-----Original Message-----
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Stephen
Petegorsky
Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2005 8:06 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] The rest of us

Richard - if you are wondering whether anyone besides Michael finds your
posts to be snide, insulting, and/or generally annoying, the answer is yes.




Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
they are often being updated.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.

Please follow these basic guidelines:
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
membership without notice.
- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from
the membership.
- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and
Moderators. See Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines in the Files section:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/

BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE OWNER AND
MODERATORS OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU
FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY
DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS,
GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  OWNER AND
MODERATORS OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE
POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY
TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR
ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY
THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER
MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
 
Yahoo! Groups Links



 


---
[This E-mail has been scanned for viruses but it is your responsibility 
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---
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This is what kill filters are for- I suggest we use them- I have!  ;^)

Bill

on 10/4/05 3:04 PM, Stephen Petegorsky wrote:

> Richard - if you are wondering whether anyone besides Michael finds your
> posts to be snide, insulting, and/or generally annoying, the answer is yes.
> 
> 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

<Richard,  I and several others have no delusion of changing your
<mind mind, nor do I care to do so.  When all one has is a hammer -
<the whole world looks like a nail. I'm only appealing to you (and one
<or two others) to stop your offensive behavior and language directed
<towards the rest of us.  Thanking you in advance, I am

<Truly and sincerely yours,  Michael vendrell


Michael:

I agree with you completely. The best this to do is just ignore him. I 
participate in several forums and people like this will keep responding as 
long as thy get a reaction ( you know, the negative attention is better than 
no attention theory). Once the responses end they always go away, always.

Gary

www.pbase.com/garyallenbrown

Stephen,

Don't forget me..=*^)

Christer

			Christer, AKA Christer Rosewell
"It's the artist's job to accomplish two things-to stir the emotions of 
the viewer
	  and to lay bare the soul of his subject." Jousuf Karsh
      		  Member EP (Editorial Photographers)
			  http://www.ChristerArt.com
		  	   3.8 million visitors to date..


On Oct 4, 2005, at 6:02 PM, 
DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com wrote:

> From: Stephen Petegorsky <petegorsky@...>
> Subject: The rest of us
>
> Richard - if you are wondering whether anyone besides Michael finds 
> your
> posts to be snide, insulting, and/or generally annoying, the answer is 
> yes.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

The original "topic"  was concerned with how much instrumentation 
was necessaryy to achieve acceptable to the individual ( a 
subjective question)  grey-scale prints on paper.  Several answered 
this question with their opinions and I for one appreciated both 
sides of the discussion until a few from the instumentation side 
began to throw insults.   As i said before, the English word 
technology comes from ancient Greek "tekne' and would apply to "know-
how" in general without regard for how that knowledge was obtained - 
i.e. by instruments or by emperic obsevation and inductive and 
deductive reasoning.

I am in fact a scientist who makes use of grey-scale imaging for 
medical imaging and image guided intervention for humans. I would 
argue that my field, Radiology, uses grey-scale imaging more, by 
orders of magnitude,. than any other.  What we don't do is print on 
paper!  Increasingly, image viewing is done on monitores and never 
printed.  When we do print it, is on transperency for viewing on 
light boxes.  I'm not sure what scientific field would use grey-
scale imaging on paper to any extent whatsoever, but would be 
willing to be enlightened.

So, I would argue that the vast majority of those on this list are 
indeed interested in printing on paper with grey-scale for the 
purpose of producing "art"`or at least craft.   


What those of us who ask the questions want to know is how can we do 
what our vision leads us to do - and how much investment will be 
required in time, money, and intellectual energy?  For an infinite 
being, more "technology" would always be better as you say.  BUT, we 
are not infinite, and for everything we do there will be something 
else we can't do. 

I belive we can all benefit from other's triumphs and failures 
regardless of how they were arrived at - as long as they are 
respectfully communicated.


So, a long ramble (for which I apologize) to say this stuff has NOT 
in my opinion been Off Topic.  And my opinion is, I must admit, not 
as humble as it might be.... 

Michael j. Vendrell, MD

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale 
<stevekale@b...> wrote:
> This whole art, subjective vs analytical discussion is IMHO way 
off topic.
> This forum is by definition about the technical process of 
printing.  It is
> not about the image.  It is not about "art" because it doesn't 
define the
> image content.  A participant on this forum could well be 
interested in,
> say, printing highly technical B&W images for scientific 
purposes.  Are we
> trying to limit this B&W printing list to just "artists"?  People 
can decide
> what and how many technical skills to apply based on their 
knowledge and,
> unfortunately, their budget.  But having got the image they want 
the
> rendition of that vision on paper is a technical skill.  
Restraints in
> technical ability or technology itself may impose limits which in 
turn
> require subjective compromise but make no mistake that the 
boundary of what
> is possible once the image is perceived in the mind's eye is 
defined by
> technical factors.  Expand your technical skills and obtain 
greater access
> to technical assistance (be it human or mechanical) and you will 
undoubtedly
> expand your ability to render your artistic talent on paper.  I 
simply do
> not believe that technical skill crowds out existing artistic 
talent.

> Rather it gives it the platform for expression.
> 
> Digital Black and White: THE PRINT

This is absolutely childish. Please take your lengthy arguments elsewhere.
Let's get back to what this forum is all about: Printing black and white
prints on our printers.

Andy 

-----Original Message-----
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Richard
Corbett
Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2005 4:13 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Digital BW] The rest of us

Prove it's 51% of the membership and I'll listen

Richard

-----Original Message-----
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Stephen
Petegorsky
Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2005 8:06 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] The rest of us

Richard - if you are wondering whether anyone besides Michael finds your
posts to be snide, insulting, and/or generally annoying, the answer is yes.




Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
they are often being updated.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.

Please follow these basic guidelines:
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
membership without notice.
- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from
the membership.
- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and
Moderators. See Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines in the Files section:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/

BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE OWNER AND
MODERATORS OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU
FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY
DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS,
GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  OWNER AND
MODERATORS OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE
POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY
TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR
ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY
THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER
MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
 
Yahoo! Groups Links



 


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Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
they are often being updated.

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If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
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Please follow these basic guidelines:
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
membership without notice.
- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from
the membership.
- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
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Peter,

On my Windows version under the chart it prints all the info you entered 
into the program (for reference) and does a nozzle check and prints that for 
reference. I thought my nozzles were OK, but when I looked at the nozzle 
check printed with the target, I could see they weren't - so back to square 
one. Useful to have it there as a record that your calibration was/was not 
OK.

Trim it after printing - you get a few bits to use for tests.

Bob Frost.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "bwbonkers" <PeterDLevis@...>

Agree but all I wanted to do was trim the grey border a little so the
target fits onto a single sheet of A4. The colour patches would
remain as they are.

I thought my nozzles were OK, but when I looked at the nozzle
> check printed with the target, I could see they weren't - so back to square 
> one. Useful to have it there as a record that your calibration was/was not 
> OK.


Bob,

It certainly is useful. In the PC version the nozzle print 
data is a .prn file that could be used in QTR as well when 
printing the liniarisation target. It has to be embedded in 
the data stream to the printer. I have not seen a similar 
addition in any other application for the Epsons but the 
separate nozzle check in the drivers.

Ernst



                    --
           Ernst Dinkla


www.pigment-print.com
(         unvollendet         )

Bob

Yes on the MAC version the same data is printed at the bottom of the 
printout but interestingly no nozzle check. However the software does 
ask before printing if the user would like to perform a nozzle check. 

Peter
--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Frost" 
<bob@f...> wrote:
> Peter,
> 
> On my Windows version under the chart it prints all the info you 
entered 
> into the program (for reference) and does a nozzle check and prints 
that for 
> reference. I thought my nozzles were OK, but when I looked at the 
nozzle 
> check printed with the target, I could see they weren't - so back 
to square 
> one. Useful to have it there as a record that your calibration 
was/was not 
> OK.
> 
> Trim it after printing - you get a few bits to use for tests.
> 
> Bob Frost.
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "bwbonkers" <PeterDLevis@a...>
> 
> Agree but all I wanted to do was trim the grey border a little so 
the
> target fits onto a single sheet of A4. The colour patches would
> remain as they are.

Dr. Vendrell's post about methodology and goals, abbreviated below, is
appreciated.

My own academic background was (a long time ago) in Experimental
Psychology, with a strong Perceptual orientation. This involved
measurement of perception...quantification of what some would call
"subjective" responses (I happened to do my own research with a
"sensory deprivation chamber", a steel room that floated on oil and
springs at San Francisco State University).  

I've had occasion repeatedly to quantify photo technicians'
"subjective" evaluations of color and density, found them to be
comparably accurate to photometers in the main, and more accurate in
the case of the most skilled tier (perhaps the top 20% in a top lab). 

Preoccupation with peripheral technology and methodology by the wrong
people (perhaps meaning real photographers) can be as distracting and
counter-productive in digital/inkjet as it was in the "old days" of
custom color photolabs.

The big amateur-oriented labs generally have/had more "instruments"
and fewer highly skilled technicians than do the top tier of custom
labs serving graphics professionals, exhibit designers, advertising
agencies, and commercial photographers. IMO. Worth considering, perhaps.
 
Djon

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "mjvendrell2"
<mjvendrell2@y...> wrote:

> The original "topic"  was concerned with how much instrumentation 
> was necessaryy to achieve acceptable to the individual ( a 
> subjective question)  grey-scale prints on paper.  Several answered 
> this question with their opinions and I for one appreciated both 
> sides of the discussion until a few from the instumentation side 
> began to throw insults.   As i said before, the English word 
> technology comes from ancient Greek "tekne' and would apply to "know-
> how" in general without regard for how that knowledge was obtained - 
> i.e. by instruments or by emperic obsevation and inductive and 
> deductive reasoning.
 
> Michael j. Vendrell, MD
>

djon43 wrote:


> I've had occasion repeatedly to quantify photo technicians'
> "subjective" evaluations of color and density, found them to be
> comparably accurate to photometers in the main, and more accurate in
> the case of the most skilled tier (perhaps the top 20% in a top lab). 

This makes sense. These people were probably trained and indoctrinated 
by highly skilled technicians with years or decades of previous 
experience, perhaps even by technicians from the previous generation; 
and are presumably highly experienced themselves. I would certainly 
expect good training, experience, and practice to improve their skills 
with the medium.


> Preoccupation with peripheral technology and methodology by the wrong
> people (perhaps meaning real photographers) can be as distracting and
> counter-productive ....

Perhaps. But there are certain things that aren't being controlled for:

(1) How many digital imaging technicians do we have who were mentored 
and trained by people who had a career lifetime's prior experience with 
technology?

(2) Were those trainers themselves trained by the previous generation of 
technicians?

(3) Do our current printers on inkjet mediums themselves have a career 
lifetime of experience at making accurate relative judgments of color 
end density in an emissive medium (e.g., crt monitors) as well as media 
that have uncommon characteristics (e.g., metamerism), and of doing so 
from perception, without frequent use of instrumentation?

I think your point is really good, and perfectly applicable to printers 
of long-standing at the high end of the tier - maybe Cone would be an 
example. I doubt that most of the printers on this list have a similar 
base of training and long experience, and I think past perceptual 
psychology experiments suggest that perceptual accuracy can improve as a 
result of these influences. Perhaps I'm mistaken, though.

I've kind of stayed out of this because, as primarily a technical 
photographer, instrumentation and a detailed understanding of the 
workflow (right down to the math involved), instrumentation is my life. 
So I'm strongly biased. But if people are getting prints they like, I 
don't really care how they get there.

-- 
Jeff Medkeff
Eagle River, Alaska

I am dead in the water on this.  On my G5 I get the message "Required file
cannot be found.  Reinstall the program." when I try run the application.
Reinstalling does not help.  I can install and run the application on my G4
laptop.  I can only assume that the required file is not part of the install
package (contrary to what the message suggests).  As I have no idea what the
required file is called I am stuck.  Epson are not a lot of help and have no
suggestion short of reinstalling OS-X - lovely! If anyone has any clues I
would appreciate it.  BTW ver 1.1 with 9800/7800 support is available here:

http://esupport.epson-europe.com/SoftwareListing.aspx?lng=en-GB&data=339AB9D
58EEB9A0F6916D49A95D1C6D39F2E4D599E9685248E37D370BC446B6A

At 5:57 PM +0100 10/5/05, Steve Kale wrote:
>On my G5 I get the message "Required file
>cannot be found.  Reinstall the program." when I try run the application.
>...  As I have no idea what the
>required file is called I am stuck.

You can sometimes solve problems like this by using the command-line 
tool "fs_usage", which traces everything that goes to and from the 
disk drives. It's included with Mac OS X. You might have to install 
the developer's tools, but I don't think so. It requires full access 
to the system, so you have to run it as root by saying "sudo 
fs_usage" in a Terminal session and providing your password. It helps 
to make the Terminal window wider than normal, since fs_usage trims 
its output to fit the window.

fs_usage generates a LOT of output. What you want to do is get 
everything set up to reproduce the error, then run "sudo fs_usage" in 
a (wide) Terminal window, and then immediately go back to your 
program and cause the error. Then quickly go back to the Terminal 
session and interrupt fs_usage with Control-C. Then you can scroll 
back through the fs_usage output looking for clues.

If you're lucky the program will try to access the missing file by 
name, and you'll see the name. If not, at least you should see it do 
a "stat" (get file information) on the directory it's supposed to be 
in.

If that's not sufficiently enlightening, it may (or may not) be 
useful to try to compare fs_usage output between your working system 
and the non-working one. If you can identify where the broken system 
departs from the normal flow, you should be able to see the working 
system access the desired file. In trying to do this, it will 
probably be helpful to read up on fs_usage's command-line arguments, 
which can limit the trace in various ways. Type "man fs_usage" in a 
Terminal window.

Good luck!

   -Paul
kb5mu@...

Ernst,

What sort of test image should one use to look for the colorbase 
corrections?

Bob Frost

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Ernst Dinkla" <E.Dinkla@...>

Bob, you wrote:

> What sort of test image should one use to look for the colorbase 
> corrections?


To see whether the printer is linear after calibration ?   A 
CMYK linearisation target from one of the other RIPs. You 
could use the Colorbase one but it has an odd range of density 
numbers + an odd distribution of the patches over the area. I 
have a Wasatch SoftRip CMYK one that could be used. Problem is 
that if you send it through Colorbase the calibration isn't 
used, if you send it over the driver it will go through the 
CMYK>RGB>CcMmYKkk conversions. The Stylus RIP is I believe 
also an RGB driver so that one wouldn't help. Any other RIP 
bypasses the calibration I guess.

I guess we should make an RGB target that should deliver 
specific CcMmYKkk patches when printed without a profile on a 
new or very good calibrated printer and use that as a 
reference for everyone. Can't think of another method.

To check the quality of a normal print through the Epson 
driver including an Epson profile ?  I normally use the Fuji 
test image.
                    --
           Ernst Dinkla


www.pigment-print.com
(         unvollendet         )

A "postscript" perhaps on this and various other threads

 

It proves, if nothing else, that the B+W forum is populated by a
representative cross section of humankind. I don't mind it - I can easily
filter out anything I don't like, mentally, if not technically

 

Richard 

 

(NB not THAT Richard)

 

  _____  

From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Andy
Biggs
Sent: 05 October 2005 05:25
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Digital BW] The rest of us

 

This is absolutely childish. Please take your lengthy arguments elsewhere.
Let's get back to what this forum is all about: Printing black and white
prints on our printers.

Andy 

-----Original Message-----
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Richard
Corbett
Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2005 4:13 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Digital BW] The rest of us

Prove it's 51% of the membership and I'll listen

Richard

-----Original Message-----
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Stephen
Petegorsky
Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2005 8:06 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] The rest of us

Richard - if you are wondering whether anyone besides Michael finds your
posts to be snide, insulting, and/or generally annoying, the answer is yes.




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Paul

Thanks for this.  It's like looking for a needle in a haystack.  I have
narrowed it down to something in or missing from my user account (a
reinstall of OS-X did not help and I can get the app to work in a test user
account).  I'll keep persevering.  I don't really want to have to rebuild my
user account from scratch.

Steve

> From: Paul Williamson <kb5mu@...>

> 
> You can sometimes solve problems like this by using the command-line
> tool "fs_usage", which traces everything that goes to and from the
> disk drives. It's included with Mac OS X. You might have to install
> the developer's tools, but I don't think so. It requires full access
> to the system, so you have to run it as root by saying "sudo
> fs_usage" in a Terminal session and providing your password. It helps
> to make the Terminal window wider than normal, since fs_usage trims
> its output to fit the window.
> 
> fs_usage generates a LOT of output. What you want to do is get
> everything set up to reproduce the error, then run "sudo fs_usage" in
> a (wide) Terminal window, and then immediately go back to your
> program and cause the error. Then quickly go back to the Terminal
> session and interrupt fs_usage with Control-C. Then you can scroll
> back through the fs_usage output looking for clues.
> 
> If you're lucky the program will try to access the missing file by
> name, and you'll see the name. If not, at least you should see it do
> a "stat" (get file information) on the directory it's supposed to be
> in.
> 
> If that's not sufficiently enlightening, it may (or may not) be
> useful to try to compare fs_usage output between your working system
> and the non-working one. If you can identify where the broken system
> departs from the normal flow, you should be able to see the working
> system access the desired file. In trying to do this, it will
> probably be helpful to read up on fs_usage's command-line arguments,
> which can limit the trace in various ways. Type "man fs_usage" in a
> Terminal window.
> 
> Good luck!
> 
>    -Paul
> kb5mu@...

BTW I had asked a few questions of Epson UK Support which were escalated
from the front line.  Specifically I had asked:

1. Does Colorbase perform an accurate linearisation  of the printer�s 4
colours (C, M, Y and K)?
2. Or is it modelling the linearisation to reach a �standard� or �reference�
printer which may not have been perfectly linear (presumably the printer
used to generate all of the Epson ICC profiles)?
3. On another note, does the 4800 driver internal CMYK operation treat the
printer as a 4 colour printer with Black comprising a continuum of K, LK and
LLK and Cyan comprising a continuum of C and LC (and likewise for Magenta),
or is separation broken into 8 channels?

Here is the response I got:

  1. Epson ColorBase does not do a linearization, just a calibration.
 
    2. It is referenced against known LAB values as defined by the
International Color Consortium and EPSON Japan. One member of EPSON gave a
demo last week to a dealer where he used ColorBase, the standard profiles
and could reach the Fogra Standards for a proof.
    3. Our printer driver expects RGB data. Then with the help of different
LUTs the RGB data are transformed into CMYK data or if there is more ink
into CcMmYKLkLLk data, so it is 8 separate channels. The LUTs are actually
doing the colour matching and colour separation. Then the Halftone Module
translates the colour separation data (always 8 bit even if the input can be
16 bit) into 2 bit binary data.


I have no idea what they mean by the first sentence in 2.

Cheers

Steve

On Wed, Oct 05, 2005 at 02:39:33AM -0000, mjvendrell2 wrote:
> The original "topic"  was concerned with how much instrumentation 
> was necessaryy to achieve acceptable to the individual ( a 
> subjective question)  grey-scale prints on paper.

Actually, I was just trying to find out if I could *improve* my
already "acceptable" prints by doing some calibration by eye.

> I belive we can all benefit from other's triumphs and failures 
> regardless of how they were arrived at - as long as they are 
> respectfully communicated.

Well put.

-- 
 Ben Rosengart                                          ben@...
       "Young people should be seen and not heard, because they're
        good-looking but not too bright.  We're pretty bright now,
        but we're ugly." -- Grace Slick on the '60s youth movement