Emax

Hello to all,

I'm trying to convert my WAV files for the Emax but keep running into the same issue. I have a mac running Logic which would allow me to bounce either 8 bit or 16 bit wav but not 12 bit. The Waves L1 plugin does 12 bit quantize with dither and noise shaping but it's useless, since I can only bounce the results in either 8 or 16 bits. The problem with this is that the 8 bit renders are way too lo-fi and the 16 bit ones will automatically reduce with no dithering in EMXP when I transfer them to EM1 floppys on my PC and the no-dither artifacts are audible again. This is very audible in percussive samples. Simply recording them through the Emax input won't help either..

 So I read it on a site about s900 samplers using 12 bit samples that mixing white noise into the audio at very low levels can actually do the same as dithering (don't quite understand why), tried that, same results except I had slightly noisier samples then :) 

I'm starting to wonder if Emax uses 12 bit samples at all. It' a little confusing that it it uses 12 bit audio "stored" in 8 bits, or as I read somewhere else, it uses 8 bit samples with 12 bit converters?! 

If 8 bit is the case, how come I cannot convert premium quality samples, using great quality dithering and noise shaping to 8 bit and still not get the cleanness of the factory Emax samples? Or if it's 12 bit, how can I render my samples to 12 bit and not let EMXP mess up my 16 bit samples? I've tried some of the Sound Designer installs available here, but couldn't get them to work on either the mac classic emulator for windows, or emulators for OSX. It seems like I must have been a programmer to be able to get them running so I gave up. Does anyone know of alternatives?

Thank you for your attention!

there 8bits compressed then the e chip renders the 8bit compressed audio to 12bit digital output that the dacs render to analog then they go to the filters

there are no reconstruction filters for aliasing or stepping of the dac waveforms  aand rely on the analog filters to do this

where as most samplers use a reconstruction filter to filter out these stepped artifacts and aliasing

now the korg dss1 is 12bits but they still use 16bit memory same as the ensoniq eps just 0 after the 12bits

there is no 12bit convertors if you want the 12bits then you need to use the internal adc and inputs

as the dump will be 16bits and emxp converts to the 8bit compressed format

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: zrennaya 
  To: emax@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Friday, February 10, 2012 12:34 PM
  Subject: [emax] How can I dither samples to 12 bit for EMAX?


    

  Hello to all,

  I'm trying to convert my WAV files for the Emax but keep running into the same issue. I have a mac running Logic which would allow me to bounce either 8 bit or 16 bit wav but not 12 bit. The Waves L1 plugin does 12 bit quantize with dither and noise shaping but it's useless, since I can only bounce the results in either 8 or 16 bits. The problem with this is that the 8 bit renders are way too lo-fi and the 16 bit ones will automatically reduce with no dithering in EMXP when I transfer them to EM1 floppys on my PC and the no-dither artifacts are audible again. This is very audible in percussive samples. Simply recording them through the Emax input won't help either..

  So I read it on a site about s900 samplers using 12 bit samples that mixing white noise into the audio at very low levels can actually do the same as dithering (don't quite understand why), tried that, same results except I had slightly noisier samples then :) 

  I'm starting to wonder if Emax uses 12 bit samples at all. It' a little confusing that it it uses 12 bit audio "stored" in 8 bits, or as I read somewhere else, it uses 8 bit samples with 12 bit converters?! 

  If 8 bit is the case, how come I cannot convert premium quality samples, using great quality dithering and noise shaping to 8 bit and still not get the cleanness of the factory Emax samples? Or if it's 12 bit, how can I render my samples to 12 bit and not let EMXP mess up my 16 bit samples? I've tried some of the Sound Designer installs available here, but couldn't get them to work on either the mac classic emulator for windows, or emulators for OSX. It seems like I must have been a programmer to be able to get them running so I gave up. Does anyone know of alternatives?

  Thank you for your attention!



  

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi!

Thanks for your input! I gave up on the 12 bit render thing as you mentioned there's no tool that converts to 12 bits. 

On the other hand I experimented with some dithering types and I actually managed to reach the quality of factory samples in terms of noise and aliasing (using the L1). So far I couldn't get that quality from the emax ADC inputs! 

--- In emax@yahoogroups.com, "jammie" <jammie.emma@...> wrote:

>
> there 8bits compressed then the e chip renders the 8bit compressed audio to 12bit digital output that the dacs render to analog then they go to the filters
> 
> there are no reconstruction filters for aliasing or stepping of the dac waveforms  aand rely on the analog filters to do this
> 
> where as most samplers use a reconstruction filter to filter out these stepped artifacts and aliasing
> 
> now the korg dss1 is 12bits but they still use 16bit memory same as the ensoniq eps just 0 after the 12bits
> 
> there is no 12bit convertors if you want the 12bits then you need to use the internal adc and inputs
> 
> as the dump will be 16bits and emxp converts to the 8bit compressed format
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
>   From: zrennaya 
>   To: emax@yahoogroups.com 
>   Sent: Friday, February 10, 2012 12:34 PM
>   Subject: [emax] How can I dither samples to 12 bit for EMAX?
> 
> 
>     
> 
>   Hello to all,
> 
>   I'm trying to convert my WAV files for the Emax but keep running into the same issue. I have a mac running Logic which would allow me to bounce either 8 bit or 16 bit wav but not 12 bit. The Waves L1 plugin does 12 bit quantize with dither and noise shaping but it's useless, since I can only bounce the results in either 8 or 16 bits. The problem with this is that the 8 bit renders are way too lo-fi and the 16 bit ones will automatically reduce with no dithering in EMXP when I transfer them to EM1 floppys on my PC and the no-dither artifacts are audible again. This is very audible in percussive samples. Simply recording them through the Emax input won't help either..
> 
>   So I read it on a site about s900 samplers using 12 bit samples that mixing white noise into the audio at very low levels can actually do the same as dithering (don't quite understand why), tried that, same results except I had slightly noisier samples then :) 
> 
>   I'm starting to wonder if Emax uses 12 bit samples at all. It' a little confusing that it it uses 12 bit audio "stored" in 8 bits, or as I read somewhere else, it uses 8 bit samples with 12 bit converters?! 
> 
>   If 8 bit is the case, how come I cannot convert premium quality samples, using great quality dithering and noise shaping to 8 bit and still not get the cleanness of the factory Emax samples? Or if it's 12 bit, how can I render my samples to 12 bit and not let EMXP mess up my 16 bit samples? I've tried some of the Sound Designer installs available here, but couldn't get them to work on either the mac classic emulator for windows, or emulators for OSX. It seems like I must have been a programmer to be able to get them running so I gave up. Does anyone know of alternatives?
> 
>   Thank you for your attention!
> 
> 
> 
>   
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

It's great you found a solution.

Understand I don't agree or disagree, I just want to take
this opportunity to ask others how they feel about what I'm about to write.

I feel that if you are bypassing part of the sampling process of a hardware
sampler, be it an Emax, E4, Akai, whatever, you are also bypassing part of
the character of the machine as well. This is, again that's me, what makes
an Emax an Emax.

What do you people think?


Francis


On Thu, Feb 16, 2012 at 10:34 AM, zrennaya <zrennaya@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
>
>
> Hi!
>
> Thanks for your input! I gave up on the 12 bit render thing as you
> mentioned there's no tool that converts to 12 bits.
>
> On the other hand I experimented with some dithering types and I actually
> managed to reach the quality of factory samples in terms of noise and
> aliasing (using the L1). So far I couldn't get that quality from the emax
> ADC inputs!
>
> --- In emax@yahoogroups.com, "jammie" <jammie.emma@...> wrote:
> >
> > there 8bits compressed then the e chip renders the 8bit compressed audio
> to 12bit digital output that the dacs render to analog then they go to the
> filters
> >
> > there are no reconstruction filters for aliasing or stepping of the dac
> waveforms aand rely on the analog filters to do this
> >
> > where as most samplers use a reconstruction filter to filter out these
> stepped artifacts and aliasing
> >
> > now the korg dss1 is 12bits but they still use 16bit memory same as the
> ensoniq eps just 0 after the 12bits
> >
> > there is no 12bit convertors if you want the 12bits then you need to use
> the internal adc and inputs
> >
> > as the dump will be 16bits and emxp converts to the 8bit compressed
> format
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: zrennaya
> > To: emax@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Friday, February 10, 2012 12:34 PM
> > Subject: [emax] How can I dither samples to 12 bit for EMAX?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Hello to all,
> >
> > I'm trying to convert my WAV files for the Emax but keep running into
> the same issue. I have a mac running Logic which would allow me to bounce
> either 8 bit or 16 bit wav but not 12 bit. The Waves L1 plugin does 12 bit
> quantize with dither and noise shaping but it's useless, since I can only
> bounce the results in either 8 or 16 bits. The problem with this is that
> the 8 bit renders are way too lo-fi and the 16 bit ones will automatically
> reduce with no dithering in EMXP when I transfer them to EM1 floppys on my
> PC and the no-dither artifacts are audible again. This is very audible in
> percussive samples. Simply recording them through the Emax input won't help
> either..
> >
> > So I read it on a site about s900 samplers using 12 bit samples that
> mixing white noise into the audio at very low levels can actually do the
> same as dithering (don't quite understand why), tried that, same results
> except I had slightly noisier samples then :)
> >
> > I'm starting to wonder if Emax uses 12 bit samples at all. It' a little
> confusing that it it uses 12 bit audio "stored" in 8 bits, or as I read
> somewhere else, it uses 8 bit samples with 12 bit converters?!
> >
> > If 8 bit is the case, how come I cannot convert premium quality samples,
> using great quality dithering and noise shaping to 8 bit and still not get
> the cleanness of the factory Emax samples? Or if it's 12 bit, how can I
> render my samples to 12 bit and not let EMXP mess up my 16 bit samples?
> I've tried some of the Sound Designer installs available here, but couldn't
> get them to work on either the mac classic emulator for windows, or
> emulators for OSX. It seems like I must have been a programmer to be able
> to get them running so I gave up. Does anyone know of alternatives?
> >
> > Thank you for your attention!
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>  
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Agree 100%.  Transfering samples in sounds good/ok.  Sampling in is the business, sounds SO GOOD, over driven, clean, whatever, the ADC is the gold in the Emax for me.
 

 

> To: emax@yahoogroups.com
> From: francis.cote@...
> Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2012 10:53:24 -0500
> Subject: Re: [emax] Re: How can I dither samples to 12 bit for EMAX?
> 
> It's great you found a solution.
> 
> Understand I don't agree or disagree, I just want to take
> this opportunity to ask others how they feel about what I'm about to write.
> 
> I feel that if you are bypassing part of the sampling process of a hardware
> sampler, be it an Emax, E4, Akai, whatever, you are also bypassing part of
> the character of the machine as well. This is, again that's me, what makes
> an Emax an Emax.
> 
> What do you people think?
> 
> 
> Francis
> 
> 
> On Thu, Feb 16, 2012 at 10:34 AM, zrennaya <zrennaya@...> wrote:
> 
> > **
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi!
> >
> > Thanks for your input! I gave up on the 12 bit render thing as you
> > mentioned there's no tool that converts to 12 bits.
> >
> > On the other hand I experimented with some dithering types and I actually
> > managed to reach the quality of factory samples in terms of noise and
> > aliasing (using the L1). So far I couldn't get that quality from the emax
> > ADC inputs!
> >
> > --- In emax@yahoogroups.com, "jammie" <jammie.emma@...> wrote:
> > >
> > > there 8bits compressed then the e chip renders the 8bit compressed audio
> > to 12bit digital output that the dacs render to analog then they go to the
> > filters
> > >
> > > there are no reconstruction filters for aliasing or stepping of the dac
> > waveforms aand rely on the analog filters to do this
> > >
> > > where as most samplers use a reconstruction filter to filter out these
> > stepped artifacts and aliasing
> > >
> > > now the korg dss1 is 12bits but they still use 16bit memory same as the
> > ensoniq eps just 0 after the 12bits
> > >
> > > there is no 12bit convertors if you want the 12bits then you need to use
> > the internal adc and inputs
> > >
> > > as the dump will be 16bits and emxp converts to the 8bit compressed
> > format
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: zrennaya
> > > To: emax@yahoogroups.com
> > > Sent: Friday, February 10, 2012 12:34 PM
> > > Subject: [emax] How can I dither samples to 12 bit for EMAX?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Hello to all,
> > >
> > > I'm trying to convert my WAV files for the Emax but keep running into
> > the same issue. I have a mac running Logic which would allow me to bounce
> > either 8 bit or 16 bit wav but not 12 bit. The Waves L1 plugin does 12 bit
> > quantize with dither and noise shaping but it's useless, since I can only
> > bounce the results in either 8 or 16 bits. The problem with this is that
> > the 8 bit renders are way too lo-fi and the 16 bit ones will automatically
> > reduce with no dithering in EMXP when I transfer them to EM1 floppys on my
> > PC and the no-dither artifacts are audible again. This is very audible in
> > percussive samples. Simply recording them through the Emax input won't help
> > either..
> > >
> > > So I read it on a site about s900 samplers using 12 bit samples that
> > mixing white noise into the audio at very low levels can actually do the
> > same as dithering (don't quite understand why), tried that, same results
> > except I had slightly noisier samples then :)
> > >
> > > I'm starting to wonder if Emax uses 12 bit samples at all. It' a little
> > confusing that it it uses 12 bit audio "stored" in 8 bits, or as I read
> > somewhere else, it uses 8 bit samples with 12 bit converters?!
> > >
> > > If 8 bit is the case, how come I cannot convert premium quality samples,
> > using great quality dithering and noise shaping to 8 bit and still not get
> > the cleanness of the factory Emax samples? Or if it's 12 bit, how can I
> > render my samples to 12 bit and not let EMXP mess up my 16 bit samples?
> > I've tried some of the Sound Designer installs available here, but couldn't
> > get them to work on either the mac classic emulator for windows, or
> > emulators for OSX. It seems like I must have been a programmer to be able
> > to get them running so I gave up. Does anyone know of alternatives?
> > >
> > > Thank you for your attention!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> >
> > 
> >
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------
> 
> Emax and Emax II User's Group Website
> 
> http://www.silveriafamily.comYahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
 		 	   		  

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Good to know I am not alone! LOL

Specially with old samplers. To me it's like music, perfection is not the
goal, musicality is. If it's too perfect, sounds like fake. No? (that's
also why I have a profound dislike for pitch correction in general, but
that's a different subject!)

Why do the old analog AND digital synths sound good and warm? because they
are imperfect, and their qualities and quirks make them what they are (like
my wife but don't tell her I wrote that)



On Thu, Feb 16, 2012 at 11:24 AM, el macaco <elmacaco@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
>
> Agree 100%. Transfering samples in sounds good/ok. Sampling in is the
> business, sounds SO GOOD, over driven, clean, whatever, the ADC is the gold
> in the Emax for me.
>
>
> > To: emax@yahoogroups.com
> > From: francis.cote@...
> > Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2012 10:53:24 -0500
> > Subject: Re: [emax] Re: How can I dither samples to 12 bit for EMAX?
>
> >
> > It's great you found a solution.
> >
> > Understand I don't agree or disagree, I just want to take
> > this opportunity to ask others how they feel about what I'm about to
> write.
> >
> > I feel that if you are bypassing part of the sampling process of a
> hardware
> > sampler, be it an Emax, E4, Akai, whatever, you are also bypassing part
> of
> > the character of the machine as well. This is, again that's me, what
> makes
> > an Emax an Emax.
> >
> > What do you people think?
> >
> >
> > Francis
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Feb 16, 2012 at 10:34 AM, zrennaya <zrennaya@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> > > **
>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Hi!
> > >
> > > Thanks for your input! I gave up on the 12 bit render thing as you
> > > mentioned there's no tool that converts to 12 bits.
> > >
> > > On the other hand I experimented with some dithering types and I
> actually
> > > managed to reach the quality of factory samples in terms of noise and
> > > aliasing (using the L1). So far I couldn't get that quality from the
> emax
> > > ADC inputs!
> > >
> > > --- In emax@yahoogroups.com, "jammie" <jammie.emma@...> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > there 8bits compressed then the e chip renders the 8bit compressed
> audio
> > > to 12bit digital output that the dacs render to analog then they go to
> the
> > > filters
> > > >
> > > > there are no reconstruction filters for aliasing or stepping of the
> dac
> > > waveforms aand rely on the analog filters to do this
> > > >
> > > > where as most samplers use a reconstruction filter to filter out
> these
> > > stepped artifacts and aliasing
> > > >
> > > > now the korg dss1 is 12bits but they still use 16bit memory same as
> the
> > > ensoniq eps just 0 after the 12bits
> > > >
> > > > there is no 12bit convertors if you want the 12bits then you need to
> use
> > > the internal adc and inputs
> > > >
> > > > as the dump will be 16bits and emxp converts to the 8bit compressed
> > > format
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: zrennaya
> > > > To: emax@yahoogroups.com
> > > > Sent: Friday, February 10, 2012 12:34 PM
> > > > Subject: [emax] How can I dither samples to 12 bit for EMAX?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Hello to all,
> > > >
> > > > I'm trying to convert my WAV files for the Emax but keep running into
> > > the same issue. I have a mac running Logic which would allow me to
> bounce
> > > either 8 bit or 16 bit wav but not 12 bit. The Waves L1 plugin does 12
> bit
> > > quantize with dither and noise shaping but it's useless, since I can
> only
> > > bounce the results in either 8 or 16 bits. The problem with this is
> that
> > > the 8 bit renders are way too lo-fi and the 16 bit ones will
> automatically
> > > reduce with no dithering in EMXP when I transfer them to EM1 floppys
> on my
> > > PC and the no-dither artifacts are audible again. This is very audible
> in
> > > percussive samples. Simply recording them through the Emax input won't
> help
> > > either..
> > > >
> > > > So I read it on a site about s900 samplers using 12 bit samples that
> > > mixing white noise into the audio at very low levels can actually do
> the
> > > same as dithering (don't quite understand why), tried that, same
> results
> > > except I had slightly noisier samples then :)
> > > >
> > > > I'm starting to wonder if Emax uses 12 bit samples at all. It' a
> little
> > > confusing that it it uses 12 bit audio "stored" in 8 bits, or as I read
> > > somewhere else, it uses 8 bit samples with 12 bit converters?!
> > > >
> > > > If 8 bit is the case, how come I cannot convert premium quality
> samples,
> > > using great quality dithering and noise shaping to 8 bit and still not
> get
> > > the cleanness of the factory Emax samples? Or if it's 12 bit, how can I
> > > render my samples to 12 bit and not let EMXP mess up my 16 bit samples?
> > > I've tried some of the Sound Designer installs available here, but
> couldn't
> > > get them to work on either the mac classic emulator for windows, or
> > > emulators for OSX. It seems like I must have been a programmer to be
> able
> > > to get them running so I gave up. Does anyone know of alternatives?
> > > >
> > > > Thank you for your attention!
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
>
> >
> > Emax and Emax II User's Group Website
> >
> > http://www.silveriafamily.comYahoo! Groups Links
>
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>  
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

for me its the outputs that give the emax sound and the e chip

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: el macaco 
  To: emax@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2012 4:24 PM
  Subject: RE: [emax] Re: How can I dither samples to 12 bit for EMAX?


    

  Agree 100%. Transfering samples in sounds good/ok. Sampling in is the business, sounds SO GOOD, over driven, clean, whatever, the ADC is the gold in the Emax for me.


  > To: emax@yahoogroups.com
  > From: francis.cote@...
  > Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2012 10:53:24 -0500
  > Subject: Re: [emax] Re: How can I dither samples to 12 bit for EMAX?
  > 
  > It's great you found a solution.
  > 
  > Understand I don't agree or disagree, I just want to take
  > this opportunity to ask others how they feel about what I'm about to write.
  > 
  > I feel that if you are bypassing part of the sampling process of a hardware
  > sampler, be it an Emax, E4, Akai, whatever, you are also bypassing part of
  > the character of the machine as well. This is, again that's me, what makes
  > an Emax an Emax.
  > 
  > What do you people think?
  > 
  > 
  > Francis
  > 
  > 
  > On Thu, Feb 16, 2012 at 10:34 AM, zrennaya <zrennaya@...> wrote:
  > 
  > > **
  > >
  > >
  > >
  > >
  > > Hi!
  > >
  > > Thanks for your input! I gave up on the 12 bit render thing as you
  > > mentioned there's no tool that converts to 12 bits.
  > >
  > > On the other hand I experimented with some dithering types and I actually
  > > managed to reach the quality of factory samples in terms of noise and
  > > aliasing (using the L1). So far I couldn't get that quality from the emax
  > > ADC inputs!
  > >
  > > --- In emax@yahoogroups.com, "jammie" <jammie.emma@...> wrote:
  > > >
  > > > there 8bits compressed then the e chip renders the 8bit compressed audio
  > > to 12bit digital output that the dacs render to analog then they go to the
  > > filters
  > > >
  > > > there are no reconstruction filters for aliasing or stepping of the dac
  > > waveforms aand rely on the analog filters to do this
  > > >
  > > > where as most samplers use a reconstruction filter to filter out these
  > > stepped artifacts and aliasing
  > > >
  > > > now the korg dss1 is 12bits but they still use 16bit memory same as the
  > > ensoniq eps just 0 after the 12bits
  > > >
  > > > there is no 12bit convertors if you want the 12bits then you need to use
  > > the internal adc and inputs
  > > >
  > > > as the dump will be 16bits and emxp converts to the 8bit compressed
  > > format
  > > > ----- Original Message -----
  > > > From: zrennaya
  > > > To: emax@yahoogroups.com
  > > > Sent: Friday, February 10, 2012 12:34 PM
  > > > Subject: [emax] How can I dither samples to 12 bit for EMAX?
  > > >
  > > >
  > > >
  > > >
  > > > Hello to all,
  > > >
  > > > I'm trying to convert my WAV files for the Emax but keep running into
  > > the same issue. I have a mac running Logic which would allow me to bounce
  > > either 8 bit or 16 bit wav but not 12 bit. The Waves L1 plugin does 12 bit
  > > quantize with dither and noise shaping but it's useless, since I can only
  > > bounce the results in either 8 or 16 bits. The problem with this is that
  > > the 8 bit renders are way too lo-fi and the 16 bit ones will automatically
  > > reduce with no dithering in EMXP when I transfer them to EM1 floppys on my
  > > PC and the no-dither artifacts are audible again. This is very audible in
  > > percussive samples. Simply recording them through the Emax input won't help
  > > either..
  > > >
  > > > So I read it on a site about s900 samplers using 12 bit samples that
  > > mixing white noise into the audio at very low levels can actually do the
  > > same as dithering (don't quite understand why), tried that, same results
  > > except I had slightly noisier samples then :)
  > > >
  > > > I'm starting to wonder if Emax uses 12 bit samples at all. It' a little
  > > confusing that it it uses 12 bit audio "stored" in 8 bits, or as I read
  > > somewhere else, it uses 8 bit samples with 12 bit converters?!
  > > >
  > > > If 8 bit is the case, how come I cannot convert premium quality samples,
  > > using great quality dithering and noise shaping to 8 bit and still not get
  > > the cleanness of the factory Emax samples? Or if it's 12 bit, how can I
  > > render my samples to 12 bit and not let EMXP mess up my 16 bit samples?
  > > I've tried some of the Sound Designer installs available here, but couldn't
  > > get them to work on either the mac classic emulator for windows, or
  > > emulators for OSX. It seems like I must have been a programmer to be able
  > > to get them running so I gave up. Does anyone know of alternatives?
  > > >
  > > > Thank you for your attention!
  > > >
  > > >
  > > >
  > > >
  > > >
  > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
  > > >
  > >
  > > 
  > >
  > 
  > 
  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > ------------------------------------
  > 
  > Emax and Emax II User's Group Website
  > 
  > http://www.silveriafamily.comYahoo! Groups Links
  > 
  > 
  > 


  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



  

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I think that back then the ADC in the samplers were just built to a higher standard because they were new and chasing the best fidelity to cost ratio, the technology hadn't developed enough to make them cheaper. 
 
Just my theory though.
 



To: emax@yahoogroups.com

From: jammie.emma@....uk
Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2012 16:59:30 +0000
Subject: Re: [emax] Re: How can I dither samples to 12 bit for EMAX?


  



for me its the outputs that give the emax sound and the e chip
----- Original Message ----- 
From: el macaco 
To: emax@yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2012 4:24 PM
Subject: RE: [emax] Re: How can I dither samples to 12 bit for EMAX?

Agree 100%. Transfering samples in sounds good/ok. Sampling in is the business, sounds SO GOOD, over driven, clean, whatever, the ADC is the gold in the Emax for me.

> To: emax@yahoogroups.com
> From: francis.cote@...
> Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2012 10:53:24 -0500
> Subject: Re: [emax] Re: How can I dither samples to 12 bit for EMAX?
> 
> It's great you found a solution.
> 
> Understand I don't agree or disagree, I just want to take
> this opportunity to ask others how they feel about what I'm about to write.
> 
> I feel that if you are bypassing part of the sampling process of a hardware
> sampler, be it an Emax, E4, Akai, whatever, you are also bypassing part of
> the character of the machine as well. This is, again that's me, what makes
> an Emax an Emax.
> 
> What do you people think?
> 
> 
> Francis
> 
> 
> On Thu, Feb 16, 2012 at 10:34 AM, zrennaya <zrennaya@...> wrote:
> 
> > **
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi!
> >
> > Thanks for your input! I gave up on the 12 bit render thing as you
> > mentioned there's no tool that converts to 12 bits.
> >
> > On the other hand I experimented with some dithering types and I actually
> > managed to reach the quality of factory samples in terms of noise and
> > aliasing (using the L1). So far I couldn't get that quality from the emax
> > ADC inputs!
> >
> > --- In emax@yahoogroups.com, "jammie" <jammie.emma@...> wrote:
> > >
> > > there 8bits compressed then the e chip renders the 8bit compressed audio
> > to 12bit digital output that the dacs render to analog then they go to the
> > filters
> > >
> > > there are no reconstruction filters for aliasing or stepping of the dac
> > waveforms aand rely on the analog filters to do this
> > >
> > > where as most samplers use a reconstruction filter to filter out these
> > stepped artifacts and aliasing
> > >
> > > now the korg dss1 is 12bits but they still use 16bit memory same as the
> > ensoniq eps just 0 after the 12bits
> > >
> > > there is no 12bit convertors if you want the 12bits then you need to use
> > the internal adc and inputs
> > >
> > > as the dump will be 16bits and emxp converts to the 8bit compressed
> > format
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: zrennaya
> > > To: emax@yahoogroups.com
> > > Sent: Friday, February 10, 2012 12:34 PM
> > > Subject: [emax] How can I dither samples to 12 bit for EMAX?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Hello to all,
> > >
> > > I'm trying to convert my WAV files for the Emax but keep running into
> > the same issue. I have a mac running Logic which would allow me to bounce
> > either 8 bit or 16 bit wav but not 12 bit. The Waves L1 plugin does 12 bit
> > quantize with dither and noise shaping but it's useless, since I can only
> > bounce the results in either 8 or 16 bits. The problem with this is that
> > the 8 bit renders are way too lo-fi and the 16 bit ones will automatically
> > reduce with no dithering in EMXP when I transfer them to EM1 floppys on my
> > PC and the no-dither artifacts are audible again. This is very audible in
> > percussive samples. Simply recording them through the Emax input won't help
> > either..
> > >
> > > So I read it on a site about s900 samplers using 12 bit samples that
> > mixing white noise into the audio at very low levels can actually do the
> > same as dithering (don't quite understand why), tried that, same results
> > except I had slightly noisier samples then :)
> > >
> > > I'm starting to wonder if Emax uses 12 bit samples at all. It' a little
> > confusing that it it uses 12 bit audio "stored" in 8 bits, or as I read
> > somewhere else, it uses 8 bit samples with 12 bit converters?!
> > >
> > > If 8 bit is the case, how come I cannot convert premium quality samples,
> > using great quality dithering and noise shaping to 8 bit and still not get
> > the cleanness of the factory Emax samples? Or if it's 12 bit, how can I
> > render my samples to 12 bit and not let EMXP mess up my 16 bit samples?
> > I've tried some of the Sound Designer installs available here, but couldn't
> > get them to work on either the mac classic emulator for windows, or
> > emulators for OSX. It seems like I must have been a programmer to be able
> > to get them running so I gave up. Does anyone know of alternatives?
> > >
> > > Thank you for your attention!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> >
> > 
> >
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------
> 
> Emax and Emax II User's Group Website
> 
> http://www.silveriafamily.comYahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




 		 	   		  

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

actually the adc are much better in the newer samplers with over sampling

with the older samplers they used noiser products opamps lower rate dacs 
noisier cmos chips

and specialist voice chips now its the specialist voice chips that are the 
biz and give the character to the samplers

the later samplers were basically computers with softsynthesis engines


----- Original Message ----- 

From: "el macaco" <elmacaco@...>
To: <emax@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2012 5:12 PM
Subject: RE: [emax] Re: How can I dither samples to 12 bit for EMAX?


>
> I think that back then the ADC in the samplers were just built to a higher 
> standard because they were new and chasing the best fidelity to cost 
> ratio, the technology hadn't developed enough to make them cheaper.
>
> Just my theory though.
>
>
>
>
> To: emax@yahoogroups.com
> From: jammie.emma@...
> Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2012 16:59:30 +0000
> Subject: Re: [emax] Re: How can I dither samples to 12 bit for EMAX?
>
>
>
>
>
>
> for me its the outputs that give the emax sound and the e chip
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: el macaco
> To: emax@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2012 4:24 PM
> Subject: RE: [emax] Re: How can I dither samples to 12 bit for EMAX?
>
> Agree 100%. Transfering samples in sounds good/ok. Sampling in is the 
> business, sounds SO GOOD, over driven, clean, whatever, the ADC is the 
> gold in the Emax for me.
>
>> To: emax@yahoogroups.com
>> From: francis.cote@...
>> Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2012 10:53:24 -0500
>> Subject: Re: [emax] Re: How can I dither samples to 12 bit for EMAX?
>>
>> It's great you found a solution.
>>
>> Understand I don't agree or disagree, I just want to take
>> this opportunity to ask others how they feel about what I'm about to 
>> write.
>>
>> I feel that if you are bypassing part of the sampling process of a 
>> hardware
>> sampler, be it an Emax, E4, Akai, whatever, you are also bypassing part 
>> of
>> the character of the machine as well. This is, again that's me, what 
>> makes
>> an Emax an Emax.
>>
>> What do you people think?
>>
>>
>> Francis
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Feb 16, 2012 at 10:34 AM, zrennaya <zrennaya@...> wrote:
>>
>> > **
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Hi!
>> >
>> > Thanks for your input! I gave up on the 12 bit render thing as you
>> > mentioned there's no tool that converts to 12 bits.
>> >
>> > On the other hand I experimented with some dithering types and I 
>> > actually
>> > managed to reach the quality of factory samples in terms of noise and
>> > aliasing (using the L1). So far I couldn't get that quality from the 
>> > emax
>> > ADC inputs!
>> >
>> > --- In emax@yahoogroups.com, "jammie" <jammie.emma@...> wrote:
>> > >
>> > > there 8bits compressed then the e chip renders the 8bit compressed 
>> > > audio
>> > to 12bit digital output that the dacs render to analog then they go to 
>> > the
>> > filters
>> > >
>> > > there are no reconstruction filters for aliasing or stepping of the 
>> > > dac
>> > waveforms aand rely on the analog filters to do this
>> > >
>> > > where as most samplers use a reconstruction filter to filter out 
>> > > these
>> > stepped artifacts and aliasing
>> > >
>> > > now the korg dss1 is 12bits but they still use 16bit memory same as 
>> > > the
>> > ensoniq eps just 0 after the 12bits
>> > >
>> > > there is no 12bit convertors if you want the 12bits then you need to 
>> > > use
>> > the internal adc and inputs
>> > >
>> > > as the dump will be 16bits and emxp converts to the 8bit compressed
>> > format
>> > > ----- Original Message -----
>> > > From: zrennaya
>> > > To: emax@yahoogroups.com
>> > > Sent: Friday, February 10, 2012 12:34 PM
>> > > Subject: [emax] How can I dither samples to 12 bit for EMAX?
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Hello to all,
>> > >
>> > > I'm trying to convert my WAV files for the Emax but keep running into
>> > the same issue. I have a mac running Logic which would allow me to 
>> > bounce
>> > either 8 bit or 16 bit wav but not 12 bit. The Waves L1 plugin does 12 
>> > bit
>> > quantize with dither and noise shaping but it's useless, since I can 
>> > only
>> > bounce the results in either 8 or 16 bits. The problem with this is 
>> > that
>> > the 8 bit renders are way too lo-fi and the 16 bit ones will 
>> > automatically
>> > reduce with no dithering in EMXP when I transfer them to EM1 floppys on 
>> > my
>> > PC and the no-dither artifacts are audible again. This is very audible 
>> > in
>> > percussive samples. Simply recording them through the Emax input won't 
>> > help
>> > either..
>> > >
>> > > So I read it on a site about s900 samplers using 12 bit samples that
>> > mixing white noise into the audio at very low levels can actually do 
>> > the
>> > same as dithering (don't quite understand why), tried that, same 
>> > results
>> > except I had slightly noisier samples then :)
>> > >
>> > > I'm starting to wonder if Emax uses 12 bit samples at all. It' a 
>> > > little
>> > confusing that it it uses 12 bit audio "stored" in 8 bits, or as I read
>> > somewhere else, it uses 8 bit samples with 12 bit converters?!
>> > >
>> > > If 8 bit is the case, how come I cannot convert premium quality 
>> > > samples,
>> > using great quality dithering and noise shaping to 8 bit and still not 
>> > get
>> > the cleanness of the factory Emax samples? Or if it's 12 bit, how can I
>> > render my samples to 12 bit and not let EMXP mess up my 16 bit samples?
>> > I've tried some of the Sound Designer installs available here, but 
>> > couldn't
>> > get them to work on either the mac classic emulator for windows, or
>> > emulators for OSX. It seems like I must have been a programmer to be 
>> > able
>> > to get them running so I gave up. Does anyone know of alternatives?
>> > >
>> > > Thank you for your attention!
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>> > >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------
>>
>> Emax and Emax II User's Group Website
>>
>> http://www.silveriafamily.comYahoo! Groups Links
>>
>>
>>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Emax and Emax II User's Group Website
>
> http://www.silveriafamily.comYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

Everything affects the sound. Whatever you sampled with ADC coming in is
going to come out.
Which means you add something sampling in, and you add something sounding
out.



On Thu, Feb 16, 2012 at 12:27 PM, jammie <jammie.emma@...>wrote:

> **
>
>
> actually the adc are much better in the newer samplers with over sampling
>
> with the older samplers they used noiser products opamps lower rate dacs
> noisier cmos chips
>
> and specialist voice chips now its the specialist voice chips that are the
> biz and give the character to the samplers
>
> the later samplers were basically computers with softsynthesis engines
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "el macaco" <elmacaco@...>
> To: <emax@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2012 5:12 PM
> Subject: RE: [emax] Re: How can I dither samples to 12 bit for EMAX?
>
> >
> > I think that back then the ADC in the samplers were just built to a
> higher
> > standard because they were new and chasing the best fidelity to cost
> > ratio, the technology hadn't developed enough to make them cheaper.
> >
> > Just my theory though.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > To: emax@yahoogroups.com
> > From: jammie.emma@....uk
> > Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2012 16:59:30 +0000
> > Subject: Re: [emax] Re: How can I dither samples to 12 bit for EMAX?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > for me its the outputs that give the emax sound and the e chip
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: el macaco
> > To: emax@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2012 4:24 PM
> > Subject: RE: [emax] Re: How can I dither samples to 12 bit for EMAX?
> >
> > Agree 100%. Transfering samples in sounds good/ok. Sampling in is the
> > business, sounds SO GOOD, over driven, clean, whatever, the ADC is the
> > gold in the Emax for me.
> >
> >> To: emax@yahoogroups.com
> >> From: francis.cote@...
> >> Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2012 10:53:24 -0500
> >> Subject: Re: [emax] Re: How can I dither samples to 12 bit for EMAX?
> >>
> >> It's great you found a solution.
> >>
> >> Understand I don't agree or disagree, I just want to take
> >> this opportunity to ask others how they feel about what I'm about to
> >> write.
> >>
> >> I feel that if you are bypassing part of the sampling process of a
> >> hardware
> >> sampler, be it an Emax, E4, Akai, whatever, you are also bypassing part
> >> of
> >> the character of the machine as well. This is, again that's me, what
> >> makes
> >> an Emax an Emax.
> >>
> >> What do you people think?
> >>
> >>
> >> Francis
> >>
> >>
> >> On Thu, Feb 16, 2012 at 10:34 AM, zrennaya <zrennaya@...> wrote:
> >>
> >> > **
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Hi!
> >> >
> >> > Thanks for your input! I gave up on the 12 bit render thing as you
> >> > mentioned there's no tool that converts to 12 bits.
> >> >
> >> > On the other hand I experimented with some dithering types and I
> >> > actually
> >> > managed to reach the quality of factory samples in terms of noise and
> >> > aliasing (using the L1). So far I couldn't get that quality from the
> >> > emax
> >> > ADC inputs!
> >> >
> >> > --- In emax@yahoogroups.com, "jammie" <jammie.emma@...> wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > > there 8bits compressed then the e chip renders the 8bit compressed
> >> > > audio
> >> > to 12bit digital output that the dacs render to analog then they go
> to
> >> > the
> >> > filters
> >> > >
> >> > > there are no reconstruction filters for aliasing or stepping of the
> >> > > dac
> >> > waveforms aand rely on the analog filters to do this
> >> > >
> >> > > where as most samplers use a reconstruction filter to filter out
> >> > > these
> >> > stepped artifacts and aliasing
> >> > >
> >> > > now the korg dss1 is 12bits but they still use 16bit memory same as
> >> > > the
> >> > ensoniq eps just 0 after the 12bits
> >> > >
> >> > > there is no 12bit convertors if you want the 12bits then you need
> to
> >> > > use
> >> > the internal adc and inputs
> >> > >
> >> > > as the dump will be 16bits and emxp converts to the 8bit compressed
> >> > format
> >> > > ----- Original Message -----
> >> > > From: zrennaya
> >> > > To: emax@yahoogroups.com
> >> > > Sent: Friday, February 10, 2012 12:34 PM
> >> > > Subject: [emax] How can I dither samples to 12 bit for EMAX?
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > Hello to all,
> >> > >
> >> > > I'm trying to convert my WAV files for the Emax but keep running
> into
> >> > the same issue. I have a mac running Logic which would allow me to
> >> > bounce
> >> > either 8 bit or 16 bit wav but not 12 bit. The Waves L1 plugin does
> 12
> >> > bit
> >> > quantize with dither and noise shaping but it's useless, since I can
> >> > only
> >> > bounce the results in either 8 or 16 bits. The problem with this is
> >> > that
> >> > the 8 bit renders are way too lo-fi and the 16 bit ones will
> >> > automatically
> >> > reduce with no dithering in EMXP when I transfer them to EM1 floppys
> on
> >> > my
> >> > PC and the no-dither artifacts are audible again. This is very
> audible
> >> > in
> >> > percussive samples. Simply recording them through the Emax input
> won't
> >> > help
> >> > either..
> >> > >
> >> > > So I read it on a site about s900 samplers using 12 bit samples that
> >> > mixing white noise into the audio at very low levels can actually do
> >> > the
> >> > same as dithering (don't quite understand why), tried that, same
> >> > results
> >> > except I had slightly noisier samples then :)
> >> > >
> >> > > I'm starting to wonder if Emax uses 12 bit samples at all. It' a
> >> > > little
> >> > confusing that it it uses 12 bit audio "stored" in 8 bits, or as I
> read
> >> > somewhere else, it uses 8 bit samples with 12 bit converters?!
> >> > >
> >> > > If 8 bit is the case, how come I cannot convert premium quality
> >> > > samples,
> >> > using great quality dithering and noise shaping to 8 bit and still
> not
> >> > get
> >> > the cleanness of the factory Emax samples? Or if it's 12 bit, how can
> I
> >> > render my samples to 12 bit and not let EMXP mess up my 16 bit
> samples?
> >> > I've tried some of the Sound Designer installs available here, but
> >> > couldn't
> >> > get them to work on either the mac classic emulator for windows, or
> >> > emulators for OSX. It seems like I must have been a programmer to be
> >> > able
> >> > to get them running so I gave up. Does anyone know of alternatives?
> >> > >
> >> > > Thank you for your attention!
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >> > >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ------------------------------------
> >>
> >> Emax and Emax II User's Group Website
> >>
> >> http://www.silveriafamily.comYahoo! Groups Links
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Emax and Emax II User's Group Website
> >
> > http://www.silveriafamily.comYahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>
>  
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

The EMXP manual says:

"Resolution conversion: the bit depth of the sound data may be 
converted, e.g. from 16 bit to 12 bit. However, with the current sampler 
formats supported, this conversion only takes place when converting to 
Emulator-II and Emax-I. In these conversions a special codec is being 
used since the resolution conversion is not linear."

So it sounds like some conversion is happening, but from our experience 
it is not optimal.  Perhaps someone can ask Kris Van de Cappelle (is he 
on this group?) about this? Maybe it just needs a tweak. I hear the 
aliasing as well esp on low frequency sounds with a tail (for example, 
long bass drums).

izotope Ozone apparently can dither to 12 bits then save to 16 bit file 
(last 4 bits are zeros), this would seem ideal. Anyone tried it? 
http://www.izotope.com/support/help/ozone/pages/modules_dithering.htm

Nik

On 16/02/2012 15:34, zrennaya wrote:
>
> Hi!
>
> Thanks for your input! I gave up on the 12 bit render thing as you mentioned there's no tool that converts to 12 bits.
>
> On the other hand I experimented with some dithering types and I actually managed to reach the quality of factory samples in terms of noise and aliasing (using the L1). So far I couldn't get that quality from the emax ADC inputs!

Yes I'm on this group ;)

Actually the codec is converting 16 bit directly into the 8 bit data as required by the Emax. The 8 bit audio data in the Emax is a non-linear conversion of the original higher resolution audio data.
It uses a smart conversion algorithm (belonging to the u-law family as used in analog telephony. It tries to make the 8 bit audio data sound like "12-bit quality" instead of just linear "8-bit quality" as can be found in cheap samplers like the Ensoniq Mirage.

This compression algorithm is also applied within the Emax itself and by the Emax-II when it compresses/saves the bank into 8-bit. The same principle (but different algorithms) are also applied in the Emulator-II and the Emulator-I.
The algorithm has been chosen by E-Mu in such a way that it gives the best results for the most common musical sounds.
But the algorithm is weak when applied to some specific sounds, especially percussion sounds.
You get similar problems when you sample such sounds on the Emax itself, although I have to admit that from time to time they sound somewhat better than the software conversion versions generated by Emax-II or EMXP.

E-Mu must have been very aware of the weakness of their compression technique for percussion sounds, because the SP-12/1200 drum computers are NOT using 8-bit compression on their sampled sounds. The drum computers store their samples in 12 bit resolution, which means sampling time was sacrificed in favour of sound quality.
Which is a good choice, because percussion sounds are incredible on the SP-12 ! 

///E-Synthesist 

--- In emax@yahoogroups.com, Nik Kinloch <nikkinloch@...> wrote:

>
> The EMXP manual says:
> 
> "Resolution conversion: the bit depth of the sound data may be 
> converted, e.g. from 16 bit to 12 bit. However, with the current sampler 
> formats supported, this conversion only takes place when converting to 
> Emulator-II and Emax-I. In these conversions a special codec is being 
> used since the resolution conversion is not linear."
> 
> So it sounds like some conversion is happening, but from our experience 
> it is not optimal.  Perhaps someone can ask Kris Van de Cappelle (is he 
> on this group?) about this? Maybe it just needs a tweak. I hear the 
> aliasing as well esp on low frequency sounds with a tail (for example, 
> long bass drums).
> 
> izotope Ozone apparently can dither to 12 bits then save to 16 bit file 
> (last 4 bits are zeros), this would seem ideal. Anyone tried it? 
> http://www.izotope.com/support/help/ozone/pages/modules_dithering.htm
> 
> Nik
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On 16/02/2012 15:34, zrennaya wrote:
> >
> > Hi!
> >
> > Thanks for your input! I gave up on the 12 bit render thing as you mentioned there's no tool that converts to 12 bits.
> >
> > On the other hand I experimented with some dithering types and I actually managed to reach the quality of factory samples in terms of noise and aliasing (using the L1). So far I couldn't get that quality from the emax ADC inputs!
>

Hi Nik and Esynthesis! 

Actually, I've tried all the possible combinations of 12bit dithering available in Ozone and I found that the noise it mixes into the sound is way louder than the Waves L1 in either moderate or ultra setting. The L1 does the same 12bit thing by the way and I found that even the moderate setting is sufficient for the samples I've tried them on. Unfortunately, when I try to apply it on 24/28 kHz samples the DAW says L1 won't support these sample rates so I still have to process them in 44.1 and convert afterwards, which brings back some of the annoying artifacts. 

 BUT!....I was so focused on this whole dithering/sample conversion issue that I forgot to try sampling into the Emax via the adc AFTER I applied the 12bit dithering to the 44.1 kHz samples -without converting them afterwards. I tried it now and it seems to be working pretty well, I can only recommend it! In fact my new recipe for sampling percussive sounds in 28kHz into the emax is this: keep the samples in the DAW in their original sampling rate, apply some heavy limiting (6-8 dB) to bring up the tail and overall noise floor, then use the 12bit moderate dithering of L1 (I like type1 for deep and type2 for high) and then sample into the Emax ADC, then give back some transients shaping the sample with the VCA envelopes. I found this method optimal for 28 kHz, but if I can afford 44 kHz, simply applying L1 12bit moderate, bouncing in 44.1 and letting EMXP do the conversion is the sh*t!

I have to admit, the ADC does give the samples some vibe though! I'll keep experimenting!

Thanks for your attention! 



--- In emax@yahoogroups.com, "esynthesist" <esynthesist@...> wrote:

>
> Yes I'm on this group ;)
> 
> Actually the codec is converting 16 bit directly into the 8 bit data as required by the Emax. The 8 bit audio data in the Emax is a non-linear conversion of the original higher resolution audio data.
> It uses a smart conversion algorithm (belonging to the u-law family as used in analog telephony. It tries to make the 8 bit audio data sound like "12-bit quality" instead of just linear "8-bit quality" as can be found in cheap samplers like the Ensoniq Mirage.
> 
> This compression algorithm is also applied within the Emax itself and by the Emax-II when it compresses/saves the bank into 8-bit. The same principle (but different algorithms) are also applied in the Emulator-II and the Emulator-I.
> The algorithm has been chosen by E-Mu in such a way that it gives the best results for the most common musical sounds.
> But the algorithm is weak when applied to some specific sounds, especially percussion sounds.
> You get similar problems when you sample such sounds on the Emax itself, although I have to admit that from time to time they sound somewhat better than the software conversion versions generated by Emax-II or EMXP.
> 
> E-Mu must have been very aware of the weakness of their compression technique for percussion sounds, because the SP-12/1200 drum computers are NOT using 8-bit compression on their sampled sounds. The drum computers store their samples in 12 bit resolution, which means sampling time was sacrificed in favour of sound quality.
> Which is a good choice, because percussion sounds are incredible on the SP-12 ! 
> 
> ///E-Synthesist 
> 
> --- In emax@yahoogroups.com, Nik Kinloch <nikkinloch@> wrote:
> >
> > The EMXP manual says:
> > 
> > "Resolution conversion: the bit depth of the sound data may be 
> > converted, e.g. from 16 bit to 12 bit. However, with the current sampler 
> > formats supported, this conversion only takes place when converting to 
> > Emulator-II and Emax-I. In these conversions a special codec is being 
> > used since the resolution conversion is not linear."
> > 
> > So it sounds like some conversion is happening, but from our experience 
> > it is not optimal.  Perhaps someone can ask Kris Van de Cappelle (is he 
> > on this group?) about this? Maybe it just needs a tweak. I hear the 
> > aliasing as well esp on low frequency sounds with a tail (for example, 
> > long bass drums).
> > 
> > izotope Ozone apparently can dither to 12 bits then save to 16 bit file 
> > (last 4 bits are zeros), this would seem ideal. Anyone tried it? 
> > http://www.izotope.com/support/help/ozone/pages/modules_dithering.htm
> > 
> > Nik
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > On 16/02/2012 15:34, zrennaya wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi!
> > >
> > > Thanks for your input! I gave up on the 12 bit render thing as you mentioned there's no tool that converts to 12 bits.
> > >
> > > On the other hand I experimented with some dithering types and I actually managed to reach the quality of factory samples in terms of noise and aliasing (using the L1). So far I couldn't get that quality from the emax ADC inputs!
> >
>

I had no idea of this. Can you elaborate on other differences between the
emax and the sp-12/1200?
Thanks
Matt
On Feb 16, 2012 2:49 PM, "esynthesist" <esynthesist@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> Yes I'm on this group ;)
>
> Actually the codec is converting 16 bit directly into the 8 bit data as
> required by the Emax. The 8 bit audio data in the Emax is a non-linear
> conversion of the original higher resolution audio data.
> It uses a smart conversion algorithm (belonging to the u-law family as
> used in analog telephony. It tries to make the 8 bit audio data sound like
> "12-bit quality" instead of just linear "8-bit quality" as can be found in
> cheap samplers like the Ensoniq Mirage.
>
> This compression algorithm is also applied within the Emax itself and by
> the Emax-II when it compresses/saves the bank into 8-bit. The same
> principle (but different algorithms) are also applied in the Emulator-II
> and the Emulator-I.
> The algorithm has been chosen by E-Mu in such a way that it gives the best
> results for the most common musical sounds.
> But the algorithm is weak when applied to some specific sounds, especially
> percussion sounds.
> You get similar problems when you sample such sounds on the Emax itself,
> although I have to admit that from time to time they sound somewhat better
> than the software conversion versions generated by Emax-II or EMXP.
>
> E-Mu must have been very aware of the weakness of their compression
> technique for percussion sounds, because the SP-12/1200 drum computers are
> NOT using 8-bit compression on their sampled sounds. The drum computers
> store their samples in 12 bit resolution, which means sampling time was
> sacrificed in favour of sound quality.
> Which is a good choice, because percussion sounds are incredible on the
> SP-12 !
>
> ///E-Synthesist
>
> --- In emax@yahoogroups.com, Nik Kinloch <nikkinloch@...> wrote:
> >
> > The EMXP manual says:
> >
> > "Resolution conversion: the bit depth of the sound data may be
> > converted, e.g. from 16 bit to 12 bit. However, with the current sampler
> > formats supported, this conversion only takes place when converting to
> > Emulator-II and Emax-I. In these conversions a special codec is being
> > used since the resolution conversion is not linear."
> >
> > So it sounds like some conversion is happening, but from our experience
> > it is not optimal. Perhaps someone can ask Kris Van de Cappelle (is he
> > on this group?) about this? Maybe it just needs a tweak. I hear the
> > aliasing as well esp on low frequency sounds with a tail (for example,
> > long bass drums).
> >
> > izotope Ozone apparently can dither to 12 bits then save to 16 bit file
> > (last 4 bits are zeros), this would seem ideal. Anyone tried it?
> > http://www.izotope.com/support/help/ozone/pages/modules_dithering.htm
> >
> > Nik
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On 16/02/2012 15:34, zrennaya wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi!
> > >
> > > Thanks for your input! I gave up on the 12 bit render thing as you
> mentioned there's no tool that converts to 12 bits.
> > >
> > > On the other hand I experimented with some dithering types and I
> actually managed to reach the quality of factory samples in terms of noise
> and aliasing (using the L1). So far I couldn't get that quality from the
> emax ADC inputs!
> >
>
>  
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

the sp12 uses descrete 12bit dacs and all the voice is discrete parts like 
the EII

the emax uses the s chip which use the compresion system like the EII and 
also its in charge of memory thats why its fixed to 512k as thats all it can 
address

the sp12 has 8 slots for samples so 8 samples can be used at 1 time but you 
can also use the internal sample rom so if you want to sample longer samples 
and just use 2 pads you can that way

the sp12 just sounds so nice but it only has 2 ssm2044 filters on 2 drum 
tracks unlike the emax which has 8 filters

the input adc and outputdacs are nothing special just the run of the mill 
that was available at the time

the timing is much tighter than the emax for drums

but you have to save sounds on 5 !/4 inch floppies to a commodore floppy 
drive

or you can save the samples to tape which takes about the same time as 
floppy any way

the sp12 is very digital 12bit harsh for 6 of the outputs the other 2 are 
filtered by the ssm chips

but for drums the sp12 turbo is better sounding than the sp1200
----- Original Message ----- 

From: "Matt" <somatt@...>
To: <emax@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, February 17, 2012 4:32 PM
Subject: Re: [emax] Re: How can I dither samples to 12 bit for EMAX?


>I had no idea of this. Can you elaborate on other differences between the
> emax and the sp-12/1200?
> Thanks
> Matt
> On Feb 16, 2012 2:49 PM, "esynthesist" <esynthesist@...> wrote:
>
>> **
>>
>>
>> Yes I'm on this group ;)
>>
>> Actually the codec is converting 16 bit directly into the 8 bit data as
>> required by the Emax. The 8 bit audio data in the Emax is a non-linear
>> conversion of the original higher resolution audio data.
>> It uses a smart conversion algorithm (belonging to the u-law family as
>> used in analog telephony. It tries to make the 8 bit audio data sound 
>> like
>> "12-bit quality" instead of just linear "8-bit quality" as can be found 
>> in
>> cheap samplers like the Ensoniq Mirage.
>>
>> This compression algorithm is also applied within the Emax itself and by
>> the Emax-II when it compresses/saves the bank into 8-bit. The same
>> principle (but different algorithms) are also applied in the Emulator-II
>> and the Emulator-I.
>> The algorithm has been chosen by E-Mu in such a way that it gives the 
>> best
>> results for the most common musical sounds.
>> But the algorithm is weak when applied to some specific sounds, 
>> especially
>> percussion sounds.
>> You get similar problems when you sample such sounds on the Emax itself,
>> although I have to admit that from time to time they sound somewhat 
>> better
>> than the software conversion versions generated by Emax-II or EMXP.
>>
>> E-Mu must have been very aware of the weakness of their compression
>> technique for percussion sounds, because the SP-12/1200 drum computers 
>> are
>> NOT using 8-bit compression on their sampled sounds. The drum computers
>> store their samples in 12 bit resolution, which means sampling time was
>> sacrificed in favour of sound quality.
>> Which is a good choice, because percussion sounds are incredible on the
>> SP-12 !
>>
>> ///E-Synthesist
>>
>> --- In emax@yahoogroups.com, Nik Kinloch <nikkinloch@...> wrote:
>> >
>> > The EMXP manual says:
>> >
>> > "Resolution conversion: the bit depth of the sound data may be
>> > converted, e.g. from 16 bit to 12 bit. However, with the current 
>> > sampler
>> > formats supported, this conversion only takes place when converting to
>> > Emulator-II and Emax-I. In these conversions a special codec is being
>> > used since the resolution conversion is not linear."
>> >
>> > So it sounds like some conversion is happening, but from our experience
>> > it is not optimal. Perhaps someone can ask Kris Van de Cappelle (is he
>> > on this group?) about this? Maybe it just needs a tweak. I hear the
>> > aliasing as well esp on low frequency sounds with a tail (for example,
>> > long bass drums).
>> >
>> > izotope Ozone apparently can dither to 12 bits then save to 16 bit file
>> > (last 4 bits are zeros), this would seem ideal. Anyone tried it?
>> > http://www.izotope.com/support/help/ozone/pages/modules_dithering.htm
>> >
>> > Nik
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On 16/02/2012 15:34, zrennaya wrote:
>> > >
>> > > Hi!
>> > >
>> > > Thanks for your input! I gave up on the 12 bit render thing as you
>> mentioned there's no tool that converts to 12 bits.
>> > >
>> > > On the other hand I experimented with some dithering types and I
>> actually managed to reach the quality of factory samples in terms of 
>> noise
>> and aliasing (using the L1). So far I couldn't get that quality from the
>> emax ADC inputs!
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Emax and Emax II User's Group Website
>
> http://www.silveriafamily.comYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

Thanks! Sp-12 and 1200 are similar aside from what you mentioned?
On Feb 17, 2012 9:00 AM, "jammie" <jammie.emma@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> the sp12 uses descrete 12bit dacs and all the voice is discrete parts like
> the EII
>
> the emax uses the s chip which use the compresion system like the EII and
> also its in charge of memory thats why its fixed to 512k as thats all it
> can
> address
>
> the sp12 has 8 slots for samples so 8 samples can be used at 1 time but
> you
> can also use the internal sample rom so if you want to sample longer
> samples
> and just use 2 pads you can that way
>
> the sp12 just sounds so nice but it only has 2 ssm2044 filters on 2 drum
> tracks unlike the emax which has 8 filters
>
> the input adc and outputdacs are nothing special just the run of the mill
> that was available at the time
>
> the timing is much tighter than the emax for drums
>
> but you have to save sounds on 5 !/4 inch floppies to a commodore floppy
> drive
>
> or you can save the samples to tape which takes about the same time as
> floppy any way
>
> the sp12 is very digital 12bit harsh for 6 of the outputs the other 2 are
> filtered by the ssm chips
>
> but for drums the sp12 turbo is better sounding than the sp1200
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Matt" <somatt@...>
> To: <emax@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, February 17, 2012 4:32 PM
> Subject: Re: [emax] Re: How can I dither samples to 12 bit for EMAX?
>
> >I had no idea of this. Can you elaborate on other differences between the
> > emax and the sp-12/1200?
> > Thanks
> > Matt
> > On Feb 16, 2012 2:49 PM, "esynthesist" <esynthesist@...> wrote:
> >
> >> **
> >>
> >>
> >> Yes I'm on this group ;)
> >>
> >> Actually the codec is converting 16 bit directly into the 8 bit data as
> >> required by the Emax. The 8 bit audio data in the Emax is a non-linear
> >> conversion of the original higher resolution audio data.
> >> It uses a smart conversion algorithm (belonging to the u-law family as
> >> used in analog telephony. It tries to make the 8 bit audio data sound
> >> like
> >> "12-bit quality" instead of just linear "8-bit quality" as can be found
> >> in
> >> cheap samplers like the Ensoniq Mirage.
> >>
> >> This compression algorithm is also applied within the Emax itself and by
> >> the Emax-II when it compresses/saves the bank into 8-bit. The same
> >> principle (but different algorithms) are also applied in the Emulator-II
> >> and the Emulator-I.
> >> The algorithm has been chosen by E-Mu in such a way that it gives the
> >> best
> >> results for the most common musical sounds.
> >> But the algorithm is weak when applied to some specific sounds,
> >> especially
> >> percussion sounds.
> >> You get similar problems when you sample such sounds on the Emax itself,
> >> although I have to admit that from time to time they sound somewhat
> >> better
> >> than the software conversion versions generated by Emax-II or EMXP.
> >>
> >> E-Mu must have been very aware of the weakness of their compression
> >> technique for percussion sounds, because the SP-12/1200 drum computers
> >> are
> >> NOT using 8-bit compression on their sampled sounds. The drum computers
> >> store their samples in 12 bit resolution, which means sampling time was
> >> sacrificed in favour of sound quality.
> >> Which is a good choice, because percussion sounds are incredible on the
> >> SP-12 !
> >>
> >> ///E-Synthesist
> >>
> >> --- In emax@yahoogroups.com, Nik Kinloch <nikkinloch@...> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > The EMXP manual says:
> >> >
> >> > "Resolution conversion: the bit depth of the sound data may be
> >> > converted, e.g. from 16 bit to 12 bit. However, with the current
> >> > sampler
> >> > formats supported, this conversion only takes place when converting to
> >> > Emulator-II and Emax-I. In these conversions a special codec is being
> >> > used since the resolution conversion is not linear."
> >> >
> >> > So it sounds like some conversion is happening, but from our
> experience
> >> > it is not optimal. Perhaps someone can ask Kris Van de Cappelle (is he
> >> > on this group?) about this? Maybe it just needs a tweak. I hear the
> >> > aliasing as well esp on low frequency sounds with a tail (for example,
> >> > long bass drums).
> >> >
> >> > izotope Ozone apparently can dither to 12 bits then save to 16 bit
> file
> >> > (last 4 bits are zeros), this would seem ideal. Anyone tried it?
> >> > http://www.izotope.com/support/help/ozone/pages/modules_dithering.htm
> >> >
> >> > Nik
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > On 16/02/2012 15:34, zrennaya wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > > Hi!
> >> > >
> >> > > Thanks for your input! I gave up on the 12 bit render thing as you
> >> mentioned there's no tool that converts to 12 bits.
> >> > >
> >> > > On the other hand I experimented with some dithering types and I
> >> actually managed to reach the quality of factory samples in terms of
> >> noise
> >> and aliasing (using the L1). So far I couldn't get that quality from the
> >> emax ADC inputs!
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Emax and Emax II User's Group Website
> >
> > http://www.silveriafamily.comYahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>
>  
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

sp1200 has fx and analog filters per voice and a bigger sample memory and an 
internal floppy drive ds/dd drive

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "Matt" <somatt@...>
To: <emax@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, February 17, 2012 5:02 PM
Subject: Re: [emax] Re: How can I dither samples to 12 bit for EMAX?


> Thanks! Sp-12 and 1200 are similar aside from what you mentioned?
> On Feb 17, 2012 9:00 AM, "jammie" <jammie.emma@...> wrote:
>
>> **
>>
>>
>> the sp12 uses descrete 12bit dacs and all the voice is discrete parts 
>> like
>> the EII
>>
>> the emax uses the s chip which use the compresion system like the EII and
>> also its in charge of memory thats why its fixed to 512k as thats all it
>> can
>> address
>>
>> the sp12 has 8 slots for samples so 8 samples can be used at 1 time but
>> you
>> can also use the internal sample rom so if you want to sample longer
>> samples
>> and just use 2 pads you can that way
>>
>> the sp12 just sounds so nice but it only has 2 ssm2044 filters on 2 drum
>> tracks unlike the emax which has 8 filters
>>
>> the input adc and outputdacs are nothing special just the run of the mill
>> that was available at the time
>>
>> the timing is much tighter than the emax for drums
>>
>> but you have to save sounds on 5 !/4 inch floppies to a commodore floppy
>> drive
>>
>> or you can save the samples to tape which takes about the same time as
>> floppy any way
>>
>> the sp12 is very digital 12bit harsh for 6 of the outputs the other 2 are
>> filtered by the ssm chips
>>
>> but for drums the sp12 turbo is better sounding than the sp1200
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Matt" <somatt@...>
>> To: <emax@yahoogroups.com>
>> Sent: Friday, February 17, 2012 4:32 PM
>> Subject: Re: [emax] Re: How can I dither samples to 12 bit for EMAX?
>>
>> >I had no idea of this. Can you elaborate on other differences between 
>> >the
>> > emax and the sp-12/1200?
>> > Thanks
>> > Matt
>> > On Feb 16, 2012 2:49 PM, "esynthesist" <esynthesist@...> wrote:
>> >
>> >> **
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Yes I'm on this group ;)
>> >>
>> >> Actually the codec is converting 16 bit directly into the 8 bit data 
>> >> as
>> >> required by the Emax. The 8 bit audio data in the Emax is a non-linear
>> >> conversion of the original higher resolution audio data.
>> >> It uses a smart conversion algorithm (belonging to the u-law family as
>> >> used in analog telephony. It tries to make the 8 bit audio data sound
>> >> like
>> >> "12-bit quality" instead of just linear "8-bit quality" as can be 
>> >> found
>> >> in
>> >> cheap samplers like the Ensoniq Mirage.
>> >>
>> >> This compression algorithm is also applied within the Emax itself and 
>> >> by
>> >> the Emax-II when it compresses/saves the bank into 8-bit. The same
>> >> principle (but different algorithms) are also applied in the 
>> >> Emulator-II
>> >> and the Emulator-I.
>> >> The algorithm has been chosen by E-Mu in such a way that it gives the
>> >> best
>> >> results for the most common musical sounds.
>> >> But the algorithm is weak when applied to some specific sounds,
>> >> especially
>> >> percussion sounds.
>> >> You get similar problems when you sample such sounds on the Emax 
>> >> itself,
>> >> although I have to admit that from time to time they sound somewhat
>> >> better
>> >> than the software conversion versions generated by Emax-II or EMXP.
>> >>
>> >> E-Mu must have been very aware of the weakness of their compression
>> >> technique for percussion sounds, because the SP-12/1200 drum computers
>> >> are
>> >> NOT using 8-bit compression on their sampled sounds. The drum 
>> >> computers
>> >> store their samples in 12 bit resolution, which means sampling time 
>> >> was
>> >> sacrificed in favour of sound quality.
>> >> Which is a good choice, because percussion sounds are incredible on 
>> >> the
>> >> SP-12 !
>> >>
>> >> ///E-Synthesist
>> >>
>> >> --- In emax@yahoogroups.com, Nik Kinloch <nikkinloch@...> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> > The EMXP manual says:
>> >> >
>> >> > "Resolution conversion: the bit depth of the sound data may be
>> >> > converted, e.g. from 16 bit to 12 bit. However, with the current
>> >> > sampler
>> >> > formats supported, this conversion only takes place when converting 
>> >> > to
>> >> > Emulator-II and Emax-I. In these conversions a special codec is 
>> >> > being
>> >> > used since the resolution conversion is not linear."
>> >> >
>> >> > So it sounds like some conversion is happening, but from our
>> experience
>> >> > it is not optimal. Perhaps someone can ask Kris Van de Cappelle (is 
>> >> > he
>> >> > on this group?) about this? Maybe it just needs a tweak. I hear the
>> >> > aliasing as well esp on low frequency sounds with a tail (for 
>> >> > example,
>> >> > long bass drums).
>> >> >
>> >> > izotope Ozone apparently can dither to 12 bits then save to 16 bit
>> file
>> >> > (last 4 bits are zeros), this would seem ideal. Anyone tried it?
>> >> > http://www.izotope.com/support/help/ozone/pages/modules_dithering.htm
>> >> >
>> >> > Nik
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > On 16/02/2012 15:34, zrennaya wrote:
>> >> > >
>> >> > > Hi!
>> >> > >
>> >> > > Thanks for your input! I gave up on the 12 bit render thing as you
>> >> mentioned there's no tool that converts to 12 bits.
>> >> > >
>> >> > > On the other hand I experimented with some dithering types and I
>> >> actually managed to reach the quality of factory samples in terms of
>> >> noise
>> >> and aliasing (using the L1). So far I couldn't get that quality from 
>> >> the
>> >> emax ADC inputs!
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ------------------------------------
>> >
>> > Emax and Emax II User's Group Website
>> >
>> > http://www.silveriafamily.comYahoo! Groups Links
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Emax and Emax II User's Group Website
>
> http://www.silveriafamily.comYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>