EXS 24 Logic Sampler Users Group

Hi all, I'm wondering if there's a drum set for the exs that's not too
expensive. I have "ns-kit free" and I like it very much for some
things. I'm not happy at all with the stock kits. Aside from that I
have RMX which I like for some things but when it come to using a midi
file or just rolling your own, I need to have a good natural set of
drums that will load into the exs. Today I see no end to loops, REX2
files and do see the value and usefulness in all of it but there are
times when I just need to have a set on board of natural drums. The
other day someone on the Logic list recommended "Scarbee"and they
really impressed me. http://www.scarbee.com/products/sid/index.php
I was ready to purchase until I found out that they (The users) are
having problems with many things like load times in the Steinberg
sampler, sorry I forgot the name. The only alternative is Kontakt 3
and  it's $579.00USD just to be able to load the drums. I don't think
so. The company has a great product and it's too bad because many
users are being turned away because of that. For me, I like the old
EXS. It's been friendly to me anyway. I also got the free sample tank
with a sample disk of drums I purchased and I don't like those drums
either.  
DFH seems to have a good solution for isolating drums for recording
but again these drums seem to be geared to the hard hit family. I know
it take a lot of resources to have a multi layered kit with many
samples but there must be something in between. I'm doing fine on a
1.33 Mac with only 1 gig of ram because of the way I work. I never
have a lot of plugins all running at once and have learned to be very
economical. Sorry too rant on here but I've been searching for 10
months downloading demo's, listening on line, buying stuff that
doesn't really do it etc. The thing I love about the EXS is the multi
mode and the fact that you can mute all of the drums but the one that
I'm passing through "worm hole" to an audio track for independence.
Anyone got idea's? I don't post much but I read this forum along with
the Logic forums every day now for about a year and find so much
useful information here with the many knowledgeable users I thought
I'd wine a little and see if there's hidden treasure that I've missed.
Thanks in advance Wayne

--- In exs-users@yahoogroups.com, "Wayne Prue" <wayne@b...> wrote:
> Hi all, I'm wondering if there's a drum set for the exs that's not 
too
> expensive. I have "ns-kit free" and I like it very much for some
> things. I'm not happy at all with the stock kits. Aside from that I
> have RMX which I like for some things but when it come to using a 
midi
> file or just rolling your own, I need to have a good natural set of
> drums that will load into the exs. Today I see no end to loops, 
REX2
> files and do see the value and usefulness in all of it but there 
are
> times when I just need to have a set on board of natural drums. 


Hi Wayne,

I am not a heavy user of the EXS but I did like some of the drum 
samples I got from www.wizoosounds.com and especially since you can 
purchase individual kits for under $10.00. 

Cheers,
Carey

At 12:14 PM 8/20/2005 +0000, you wrote:

>Hi all, I'm wondering if there's a drum set for the exs that's not too
>expensive. I have "ns-kit free" and I like it very much for some
>things. I'm not happy at all with the stock kits. Aside from that I
>have RMX which I like for some things but when it come to using a midi
>file or just rolling your own, I need to have a good natural set of
>drums that will load into the exs. Today I see no end to loops, REX2
>files and do see the value and usefulness in all of it but there are
>times when I just need to have a set on board of natural drums. The
>other day someone on the Logic list recommended "Scarbee"and they
>really impressed me. 
><http://www.scarbee.com/products/sid/index.php>http://www.scarbee.com/products/sid/index.<http://www.scarbee.com/products/sid/index.php>php
>I was ready to purchase until I found out that they (The users) are
>having problems with many things like load times in the Steinberg
>sampler, sorry I forgot the name. The only alternative is Kontakt 3
>and it's $579.00USD just to be able to load the drums. I don't think
>so. The company has a great product and it's too bad because many
>users are being turned away because of that. For me, I like the old
>EXS. It's been friendly to me anyway. I also got the free sample tank
>with a sample disk of drums I purchased and I don't like those drums
>either.

>DFH seems to have a good solution for isolating drums for recording
>but again these drums seem to be geared to the hard hit family. I know
>it take a lot of resources to have a multi layered kit with many
>samples but there must be something in between. I'm doing fine on a
>1.33 Mac with only 1 gig of ram because of the way I work. I never
>have a lot of plugins all running at once and have learned to be very
>economical. Sorry too rant on here but I've been searching for 10
>months downloading demo's, listening on line, buying stuff that
>doesn't really do it etc. The thing I love about the EXS is the multi
>mode and the fact that you can mute all of the drums but the one that
>I'm passing through "worm hole" to an audio track for independence.
>Anyone got idea's? I don't post much but I read this forum along with
>the Logic forums every day now for about a year and find so much
>useful information here with the many knowledgeable users I thought
>I'd wine a little and see if there's hidden treasure that I've missed.

I'm not answering your question at the moment (time restraints), but I 
think you've really articulated the whole issue of different needs for 
different people.

One would think with Virtual Instruments gaining a string presence in the 
market that these things were problem-free, but they aren't, as you've 
discovered. It's unfortunate that pirating has affected the market so much 
as to influence the rise of encrypted VI's that you can't use in other 
platforms. That isn't the only reason for VI's, but it's a major part of 
it. Developers would be happy to release their products the way they used 
to, and save the big chunk of money to license the VI engine, but the 
pirating is just too significant.

There was day, even today, where someone would say "let them steal, it 
doesn't affect me." Or "I'll grab this one thing off my friends hard drive, 
it's okay for now." Wayne's issue is the outcome of that - now he can't go 
for an easy solution to his issue - get the good libraries in EXS format so 
he can play them - because of peoples previous lapses in ethical judgement.

(And of course I'm complaining out of my own market bias, but still the 
question remains.)

And of course some of the above is simplified. The VI engines are very good 
- perhaps some toying with them is the key. Also, remember what you read on 
the Net is skewed - people talk whens there's a problem. Success stories 
usually don't get front page.

Now that I just hijacked your thread... never mind me, you just articulated 
this so well I had to make note of it.

Garth Hjelte
Sampler User


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi. Two things. One is Kontakt2 won't cost that list price thru a music store. 
The second is it doesn't matter what sampler you use so much. If you have the 
samples and create your own kit in the ex you don't need another sampler. 
You might want to check out (pronounced BUY) the August issue of a UK mag 
called Computer Music. There is a free version of BFD with one kit that 
sounds very natural. You can't load other samples into it but it works just fine 
stand alone or within Logic. Also the drums that come with K2 are not that 
great. Also you can't load them into anything other then NI stuff. Also you 
pretty much get what you pay for. BFD is great but you have to be able to load 
something like 6-7GB into your comruters HD. And you need to purchase the 
software that allows you to use it. In otherwords. You need to purchase the 
engine. Then you have the item. It comes with kits but if you want others you 
have to buy them. After all is said and done you won't be getting something 
cheaper then K2. I use all the NI stuff as well as Reason 3. I love them all for 
different things. My advise. Learn how to use the EX and get a bunch of 
samples. You can find them all over the place. Layer them and go for broke. 
Just a thought. T

I was going to recommend the Wizoo Mixtended Drums as well, but I wasn't 
sure if they were still being offerred.  I went to www.wizoo.com and 
didn't see them, but I found them at the URL that Carey supplied.  They 
sound quite good and the price is very reasonable for the CD.  

Regards,
Lenny

careyparder wrote:

>--- In exs-users@yahoogroups.com, "Wayne Prue" <wayne@b...> wrote:
>  
>
>>Hi all, I'm wondering if there's a drum set for the exs that's not 
>>    
>>
>too
>  
>
>>expensive. I have "ns-kit free" and I like it very much for some
>>things. I'm not happy at all with the stock kits. Aside from that I
>>have RMX which I like for some things but when it come to using a 
>>    
>>
>midi
>  
>
>>file or just rolling your own, I need to have a good natural set of
>>drums that will load into the exs. Today I see no end to loops, 
>>    
>>
>REX2
>  
>
>>files and do see the value and usefulness in all of it but there 
>>    
>>
>are
>  
>
>>times when I just need to have a set on board of natural drums. 
>>    
>>
>
>
>Hi Wayne,
>
>I am not a heavy user of the EXS but I did like some of the drum 
>samples I got from www.wizoosounds.com and especially since you can 
>purchase individual kits for under $10.00. 
>
>Cheers,
>Carey
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>____________________________________________________________________
>                          EXS* Users Group
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>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
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> 
>
>
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>
>
>  
>

-- 
=========================================================================
 Lenny Stearns                                     lens@...
 Alexandria, Virginia
=========================================================================

On 21/08/2005, at 1:29 AM, careyparder wrote:

> I am not a heavy user of the EXS but I did like some of the drum
> samples I got from www.wizoosounds.com and especially since you can
> purchase individual kits for under $10.00.

I have the Platinum 24 Drum Pack and highly recommend it. For what  
they are they are relatively inexpensive.

<http://tinyurl.com/c9yc8>

Plus you can download them rather than waiting for the CD and pay for  
shipping.


michael

> Hi Wayne,
> 
> I am not a heavy user of the EXS but I did like some of the drum 
> samples I got from www.wizoosounds.com and especially since you can 
> purchase individual kits for under $10.00. 
> 
> Cheers,
> Carey

Thanks for the tip Carey, I'm on my way... Wayne

--- In exs-users@yahoogroups.com, Lenny Stearns <lens@p...> wrote
> I was going to recommend the Wizoo Mixtended Drums as well, but I
wasn't 
> sure if they were still being offerred.  I went to www.wizoo.com and 
> didn't see them, but I found them at the URL that Carey supplied.  They 
> sound quite good and the price is very reasonable for the CD.  
> 
> Regards,
> Lenny
> 


Thanks Lenny, I knew you guys would have some ideas. Wayne

> 
> On 21/08/2005, at 1:29 AM, careyparder wrote:
> 
> > I am not a heavy user of the EXS but I did like some of the drum
> > samples I got from www.wizoosounds.com and especially since you can
> > purchase individual kits for under $10.00.
> 
--- In exs-users@yahoogroups.com, Michael Scheurer <lists@m...> wrote:

> I have the Platinum 24 Drum Pack and highly recommend it. For what  
> they are they are relatively inexpensive.
> 
> <http://tinyurl.com/c9yc8>
> 
> Plus you can download them rather than waiting for the CD and pay for  
> shipping.
> 
> 
> michael

........Yaaaaaa I like that. I'll let everyone know in a few days if I
find some good stuff. I have to admit that this can be fun. I love
hunting. Wayne

I won't be able to answer your questions about good natural drums in EXS format, but when it comes to drums, I can only recommend
getting a dedicated drum sampler.
Not only do they usually come with a good array of properly multisampled and mapped kits - they will also make your life easier in a
lot of other ways.
The main thing being that tweaking of individual drum instruments inside a kit is WAY easier than doing so inside the EXS.

An example: You may want to route your velocity to sample start. That way, say, a snare would only playback with the full "twang"
when being hit hard. In the EXS such a modulation is only possible for the complete set (and it might not make much sense on quite
some instruments but snare, toms and kicks). In almost any dedicated drum sampler you can easily set up these sorts of modulations
on a "per key/instrument" base.

Or well, another one: Try to detune a single snare or whatever. In the EXS you'd have to enter the instrument editor, select the
appropriate zone, alter the tuning and save the instrument under another name. This is even getting worse when dealing with velocity
layered snares as you'd have to do the tuning job for each zone. On a dedicated drum sampler you'd just adjust it after selecting
the appropriate "pad" and be done. No need to resave anything either as everything will be saved with your songfile.

The same goes for using multiple outs. You'd have to alter your EXS patches and be stuck with the output assignments unless you'd
resave the patch again. On a dedicated drum sampler this is done easily and won't require resaving.

As for now, there's two drum samplers I could recommend: NIs Battery 2 or Linplugs RMIV. As said, both are coming with a good
assortment of kits as well.
If you got some time, you may want to wait for FXpansions Drum 9, which might appear end of the year or so. Should be the "mother of
all drumsamplers" if I got the teasers right.

In any case, for anything drum/percussion related I couldn't live without a dedicated sampler anymore.
And btw, while both Kontakt and HALion do a better job on things such as altering samples or assigning them to different outputs,
they still don't come close to the comfort of using a drum sampler.

Regards,
Sascha

At 08:58 PM 8/21/2005 +0200, you wrote:
>I won't be able to answer your questions about good natural drums in EXS 
>format, but when it comes to drums, I can only recommend
>getting a dedicated drum sampler.
>Not only do they usually come with a good array of properly multisampled 
>and mapped kits - they will also make your life easier in a
>lot of other ways.
>The main thing being that tweaking of individual drum instruments inside a 
>kit is WAY easier than doing so inside the EXS.
>
>An example: You may want to route your velocity to sample start. That way, 
>say, a snare would only playback with the full "twang"
>when being hit hard. In the EXS such a modulation is only possible for the 
>complete set (and it might not make much sense on quite
>some instruments but snare, toms and kicks). In almost any dedicated drum 
>sampler you can easily set up these sorts of modulations
>on a "per key/instrument" base.
>
>Or well, another one: Try to detune a single snare or whatever. In the EXS 
>you'd have to enter the instrument editor, select the
>appropriate zone, alter the tuning and save the instrument under another 
>name. This is even getting worse when dealing with velocity
>layered snares as you'd have to do the tuning job for each zone. On a 
>dedicated drum sampler you'd just adjust it after selecting
>the appropriate "pad" and be done. No need to resave anything either as 
>everything will be saved with your songfile.
>
>The same goes for using multiple outs. You'd have to alter your EXS 
>patches and be stuck with the output assignments unless you'd
>resave the patch again. On a dedicated drum sampler this is done easily 
>and won't require resaving.
>
>As for now, there's two drum samplers I could recommend: NIs Battery 2 or 
>Linplugs RMIV. As said, both are coming with a good
>assortment of kits as well.
>If you got some time, you may want to wait for FXpansions Drum 9, which 
>might appear end of the year or so. Should be the "mother of
>all drumsamplers" if I got the teasers right.
>
>In any case, for anything drum/percussion related I couldn't live without 
>a dedicated sampler anymore.
>And btw, while both Kontakt and HALion do a better job on things such as 
>altering samples or assigning them to different outputs,
>they still don't come close to the comfort of using a drum sampler.
>
>Regards,
>Sascha
>
>
>
>
>
>
>____________________________________________________________________
>                           EXS* Users Group
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>- EXS/Logic FAQ: 
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Garth Hjelte
Sampler User


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

At 20:58 Uhr +0200 21.08.2005, Sascha Franck wrote:
>As for now, there's two drum samplers I could recommend: NIs Battery 
>2 or Linplugs RMIV. As said, both are coming with a good
>assortment of kits as well.

I wholeheartedly agree.

The EXS does have one very important advantage over at least Battery 
(don't know the RMIV): the performance hit to the CPU and the memory 
usage is nowhere as high as with Battery.

I usually end up making audio out of everything except the EXS 
tracks. Makes working just so much faster. But then again. Not 
everyone is stuck on a Powerbook like me. :-)

Cheers
Hans

> when it comes to drums, I can only recommend getting a dedicated drum sampler.
Agreed... it would appear that as I venture tentatively into the world of
s/w samplers (such as EXS, Kontakt... whatever), they don't seem well suited
to drums and percussion.... or at least, solutions to simple requirements
seem very convoluted and long-winded (witness the recent thread on hi-hat
muting!).

Ironically, hardware samplers such as the Akais retained many of their
facilities purely to retain the ability to obtain strict control over drums
and percussion - individual envelopes per sample, separate filtering per
sample, assigning individual sample to different audio outputs, panning, FX
send, tuning and so on of individual samples, the 'mute-group' function
discussed recently, etc..

It would have made these lumps of hardware far more appealing and easier to
use if envelope, filtering and so forth had been made 'global' so that
edits/changes affected all keygroups/zones/layers (call them what you will)
equally as on a s/w sampler but this would have been a dead lost and totally
useless for drums.

However, it would appear that this is the paradigm adopted by s/w sampler
manufacturers - one change fits all. Of course, roll your sleeves up and
it's possible to fudge certain drum-related facilities but it seems you hve
to leap through several complicated hoops to achieve what would take just
seconds on a 1990 Akai sampler (there's 'progress' for you!)!

This 'global' approach to editing is ideal for *instrumental* sounds where
all the samples are essentially the same but it is lacking for drums and
percussion etc.. Software  drum samplers such as BATTERY, on the other hand,
seem to handle things much better in this respect as Sascha describes.

Or buy a hardware sampler that can handle both equally ;-)


Best regards,


Steve
http://www.hollowsun.com

> dead lost
SP : dead loss


Best regards,


Steve
http://www.hollowsun.com

On 22/08/2005, at 4:58 AM, Sascha Franck wrote:

> I won't be able to answer your questions about good natural drums in 
> EXS format, but when it comes to drums, I can only recommend
> getting a dedicated drum sampler.
> Not only do they usually come with a good array of properly 
> multisampled and mapped kits - they will also make your life easier in 
> a
> lot of other ways.
> The main thing being that tweaking of individual drum instruments 
> inside a kit is WAY easier than doing so inside the EXS.
>
> An example: You may want to route your velocity to sample start. That 
> way, say, a snare would only playback with the full "twang"
> when being hit hard. In the EXS such a modulation is only possible for 
> the complete set (and it might not make much sense on quite
> some instruments but snare, toms and kicks). In almost any dedicated 
> drum sampler you can easily set up these sorts of modulations
> on a "per key/instrument" base.
>
> Or well, another one: Try to detune a single snare or whatever. In the 
> EXS you'd have to enter the instrument editor, select the
> appropriate zone, alter the tuning and save the instrument under 
> another name. This is even getting worse when dealing with velocity
> layered snares as you'd have to do the tuning job for each zone. On a 
> dedicated drum sampler you'd just adjust it after selecting
> the appropriate "pad" and be done. No need to resave anything either 
> as everything will be saved with your songfile.
>
> The same goes for using multiple outs. You'd have to alter your EXS 
> patches and be stuck with the output assignments unless you'd
> resave the patch again. On a dedicated drum sampler this is done 
> easily and won't require resaving.
>
> As for now, there's two drum samplers I could recommend: NIs Battery 2 
> or Linplugs RMIV. As said, both are coming with a good
> assortment of kits as well.
> If you got some time, you may want to wait for FXpansions Drum 9, 
> which might appear end of the year or so. Should be the "mother of
> all drumsamplers" if I got the teasers right.

These are all good points Sascha that apply to esx and other generic 
sampler instruments - except in one setting which happens to be the way 
I use EXS as drum sampler most often.

One of the Libraries I use a bit is the Wizoo Mixtend mentioned 
elsewhere in this thread. It's a typical multiple velocity sampled drum 
instrument with dry, overhead and room sample sets inculded.

I load up multiple EXS instances with the same kit loaded. One for each 
drum sound I'm using. It doesn't take up any more ram to load multiple 
instances of the SAME kit as many times as you like - nor does it use 
up much more CPU than if you have one loaded. By working one drum sound 
per instrument almost all the almost all the criticisms you level at 
using EXS as drum sampler are avoided.

Unless you want to build a custom kit you never have to open the editor.

If you want to do a custom modulation routing for one of the sounds, 
simply do it in the EXS instrument panel and save the song. These 
settings get saved and you don't have to worry about saving a custom 
EXS instrument.

To change the tuning or even envelope of and individual sound - just do 
on the instrument pointing to that sound. Not even BFD (which I love) 
can change the envelope of a specific sound. Once again all adjustments 
are saved with the song. No need to save a custom EXS instrument.

Working this way it's much quicker to set up individual processing, pan 
and level per sound. You don't have to mess with multiple outputs - and 
if you're working with Logic pre ver7 you won't have to worry about 
plugin delay compensation when working this way either - which is kind 
of why I developed this technique.

When working with multiple output instruments I also hate having to 
assign Aux objects to tracks in the arrange window just so I can see 
and edit them in my track mixer - another reason I prefer this EXS 
technique and miss it when I work with other drum samplers. I've tried 
working this way with BFD but it just chokes the computer and doesn't 
seem to have the same intelligence as EXS in this way.

There are other features I like about BFD over working in EXS for drums 
like the ambience control being more intuitive. But there's nothing you 
can do in BFD that you can't do in EXS. It may be a little easier but 
that's all - and I do miss being able to use some of the aforementioned 
techniques available when using EXS for drums.

Haven't really worked with DFH or Kontact which get mentioned a lot and 
seem well liked so I can't say about them.

Kind regards
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Paul Najar
Jaminajar Music Production
www.jaminajar.com

Hans Hafner wrote:
> The EXS does have one very important advantage over at least Battery
> (don't know the RMIV): the performance hit to the CPU and the memory
> usage is nowhere as high as with Battery.

Hm, must be a Mac issue then. On PC the CPU overhead of Battery is almost comparable to the EXS.
Besides, I'm usually using FXpansions DR-008 anyways, which is even more efficient (unfortunately it's PC only... let's just hope
for Drum 9, which should be DR-008 compatible and x-platform).

Regards,
Sascha

Paul Najar wrote:
> I load up multiple EXS instances with the same kit loaded. One for each
> drum sound I'm using. It doesn't take up any more ram to load multiple
> instances of the SAME kit as many times as you like - nor does it use
> up much more CPU than if you have one loaded. By working one drum sound
> per instrument almost all the almost all the criticisms you level at
> using EXS as drum sampler are avoided.

All valid points too - just a bit uncomfortable for realtime playing, which is how I do most of my drum tracks (I usually only
program rolls, ghost strokes and whatever).

> To change the tuning or even envelope of and individual sound - just do
> on the instrument pointing to that sound. Not even BFD (which I love)
> can change the envelope of a specific sound.

Yeah, sure - but as said, for realtime playing it's tough to deal with.
And btw, I don't consider BFD being a drum sampler. It's more something like a ROMpler.
Both Battery and RMIV offer individual envelopes for each cell.

And for what it's worth, I like using individual outs in Logic - to me it's less bloated than in, say, Cubase SX. And of course it's
the way to go in case you're into realtime drum programming/recording.

Cheers,
Sascha

--- In exs-users@yahoogroups.com, "Sascha Franck" <S.Franck@g...> wrote:
> I won't be able to answer your questions about good natural drums in
EXS format, but when it comes to drums, I can only recommend
> getting a dedicated drum sampler.

> Regards,
> Sascha

Hi Sascha, thank you for your long and considered post. By the way I
saw the add for the FXpansions Drum 9 (Mac.... Ya!) I was reading and
drooling over the pc drum sampler they have now. The Drum 8xx8
something, and what a drag to find out it's only for pc. It's also
only $99.00USD looks like a steal and I will be looking out for the
drum 9 for sure. Last night I joined www.wizoosounds.com and purchased
four items:
Upright Bass  (EXS24)
MD Starclassic Kit  (EXS24) 
Pagelli 5 String Fretless  (EXS24) 
Latin Pop Kit  (EXS24

The fretless has some kind of problems but the other thing was that
the drums (Not general midi) and do sound good, are not finding one of
the samples for the 16 tom. Maybe a bad download. Anyway while working
with these drums I was shocked to see 12 instances of the exs without
any noticeable drain on my system. I just love that. To me, this is my
preferred way of working... one drum on one track. I also love my RMX
and back beat but it has it limitations as well so when all else
fails, whip out the exs and some jazz midi files or just play it in if
you have to but I am getting tired of that... It seems to me that many
of the products are geared to either back beat, hip hop, loops or what
ever but if you need to do something very creative, and by that I mean
free intro's going into a bla bla bla and then to the main groove..
I've never found what I needed in the packages I've come across so,
roll your own it is. I just wish I could return some of the products
I've purchased only to find out that they really forgot to tell you
that... OH! it won't do that.. I rant. Wayne

--- In exs-users@yahoogroups.com, Hans Hafner <hanshafner@g...> wrote:
> At 20:58 Uhr +0200 21.08.2005, Sascha Franck wrote:
> >As for now, there's two drum samplers I could recommend: NIs Battery 
> >2 or Linplugs RMIV. As said, both are coming with a good
> >assortment of kits as well.
> 
> I wholeheartedly agree.
> 
> The EXS does have one very important advantage over at least Battery 
> (don't know the RMIV): the performance hit to the CPU and the memory 
> usage is nowhere as high as with Battery.
> 
> I usually end up making audio out of everything except the EXS 
> tracks. Makes working just so much faster. But then again. Not 
> everyone is stuck on a Powerbook like me. :-)
> 
> Cheers
> Hans

Hi Hans, wow do I agree with that as I just found out. I just can't
believe how many instances the exs will let you have. Gotta love that. 
 Wayne

--- In exs-users@yahoogroups.com, Hollow Sun <steve@h...> wrote:
> > when it comes to drums, I can only recommend getting a dedicated
drum sampler.
> Agreed... it would appear that as I venture tentatively into the
world of


> Steve
> http://www.hollowsun.com


Everyone marches to the sound of a different sampler hu! ;-)

--- In exs-users@yahoogroups.com, Paul Najar <paulnajar@j...> wrote:
> On 22/08/2005, at 4:58 AM, Sascha Franck wrote:



> These are all good points Sascha that apply to esx and other generic 
> sampler instruments - except in one setting which happens to be the way 
> I use EXS as drum sampler most often.
> 

> Kind regards
> :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
> Paul Najar
> Jaminajar Music Production
> www.jaminajar.com


Hi Paul, I think it was you that recommended www.wizoosounds.com
Can't keep track these days, getting on you know ;-) anyway I have
been on a trip since I posted here yesterday I think but it seems like
a week... I've learned a lot since anyway. I got the MD Starclassic
Kit  (EXS24) It's not general midi but it's not hard to transpose the
individual tracks in Logic to set up the drums. Some of the sounds
like cymbals will have 3 or 4 zones of tonal differences and responses
so you just pick the one you want. I agree with you about the way you
like to work with the exs, that's about the way I've been working
lately but using rmx in kit mode and committing to audio each separate
track. If later in the mix you realize the something needs changing
you just redo it at the end. It keep things humming along. And...
the search continues. Wayne

On 22/08/2005, at 8:52 AM, Hollow Sun wrote:

>> when it comes to drums, I can only recommend getting a dedicated drum 
>> sampler.
> Agreed... it would appear that as I venture tentatively into the world 
> of
> s/w samplers (such as EXS, Kontakt... whatever), they don't seem well 
> suited
> to drums and percussion.... or at least, solutions to simple 
> requirements
> seem very convoluted and long-winded (witness the recent thread on 
> hi-hat
> muting!).
>
> Ironically, hardware samplers such as the Akais retained many of their
> facilities purely to retain the ability to obtain strict control over 
> drums
> and percussion - individual envelopes per sample, separate filtering 
> per
> sample, assigning individual sample to different audio outputs, 
> panning, FX
> send, tuning and so on of individual samples, the 'mute-group' function
> discussed recently, etc..
>
> It would have made these lumps of hardware far more appealing and 
> easier to
> use if envelope, filtering and so forth had been made 'global' so that
> edits/changes affected all keygroups/zones/layers (call them what you 
> will)
> equally as on a s/w sampler but this would have been a dead lost and 
> totally
> useless for drums.

Some hardware samplers offered both individual edits and per instrument 
or layer. The Ensoniq OS. Still the best sampler OS I've ever seen.

> However, it would appear that this is the paradigm adopted by s/w 
> sampler
> manufacturers - one change fits all. Of course, roll your sleeves up 
> and
> it's possible to fudge certain drum-related facilities but it seems 
> you hve
> to leap through several complicated hoops to achieve what would take 
> just
> seconds on a 1990 Akai sampler (there's 'progress' for you!)!

Once again, why not offer both? Software designers are not always 
musicians or people who fully understand the real world demands of 
these devices. Even back in the hardware sampler days the Ensoinq OS 
was by far the most flexible but was often considered the poor cousin 
to the Akai's & Emu's because of it's smaller ram and number of voices. 
Back then the average user did not pick up on how much more advanced 
the OS was and how that could be an advantage and I feel the same is 
true of the current crop of devices and users now. Only a small 
percentage appreciate the subtle benefits of such intricacies.

> This 'global' approach to editing is ideal for *instrumental* sounds 
> where
> all the samples are essentially the same but it is lacking for drums 
> and
> percussion etc.. Software  drum samplers such as BATTERY, on the other 
> hand,
> seem to handle things much better in this respect as Sascha describes.
>
> Or buy a hardware sampler that can handle both equally ;-)

If you look at my previous post in this thread you'll see I offer as a 
tip a different approach to drum programming and EXS use that simply 
gets around all the limitations you describe between hardware and 
current software samplers.

Kind regards

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Paul Najar
Jaminajar Music Production
www.jaminajar.com

On 22/08/2005, at 10:01 AM, Sascha Franck wrote:

> Paul Najar wrote:
>> I load up multiple EXS instances with the same kit loaded. One for 
>> each
>> drum sound I'm using. It doesn't take up any more ram to load multiple
>> instances of the SAME kit as many times as you like - nor does it use
>> up much more CPU than if you have one loaded. By working one drum 
>> sound
>> per instrument almost all the almost all the criticisms you level at
>> using EXS as drum sampler are avoided.
>
> All valid points too - just a bit uncomfortable for realtime playing, 
> which is how I do most of my drum tracks (I usually only
> program rolls, ghost strokes and whatever).
>
>> To change the tuning or even envelope of and individual sound - just 
>> do
>> on the instrument pointing to that sound. Not even BFD (which I love)
>> can change the envelope of a specific sound.
>
> Yeah, sure - but as said, for realtime playing it's tough to deal with.
> And btw, I don't consider BFD being a drum sampler. It's more 
> something like a ROMpler.
> Both Battery and RMIV offer individual envelopes for each cell.
>
> And for what it's worth, I like using individual outs in Logic - to me 
> it's less bloated than in, say, Cubase SX. And of course it's
> the way to go in case you're into realtime drum programming/recording.

Using the multiple instances approach you can still real time play on 
just one instance and then use the "demix by note pitch command" or if 
you've done some sound edits and want to do your real time performance 
with those sounds in place you can use the rarely mentioned "Mapped 
Instrument" and do it very elegantly. Sure it's a bit more environment 
cabling but not much really and using it opens up another set of 
possibilities not possible without.

Kind regards

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Paul Najar
Jaminajar Music Production
www.jaminajar.com

Sorry for the long quoted nothing message... =( stupid email client....

Garth Hjelte
Sampler User

> Some hardware samplers offered both individual edits and per instrument
> or layer.
The Akais being no exception since the S900 - you can edit at the individual
keygroup level with each one tailored in detail for each sample (or samples)
it contains (ideal for drums/percussion/etc.) or you can switch to EDIT ALL
to edit 'globally' (ideal for 'instruments').

> If you look at my previous post in this thread....
I did. Seemed rather long-winded and convoluted compared with a simple 'mute
group' function 


Best regards,


Steve
http://www.hollowsun.com

On 22/08/2005, at 10:10 PM, Hollow Sun wrote:

>> If you look at my previous post in this thread....
> I did. Seemed rather long-winded and convoluted compared with a simple 
> 'mute
> group' function

I'm not sure specifically what you're referring to here. Muting hi 
hats? If it is then it could not be more simple. Just mute the track or 
instrument playing the hats.

Regards

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Paul Najar
Jaminajar Music Production
www.jaminajar.com

> I'm not sure specifically what you're referring to here. Muting hi
> hats? If it is then it could not be more simple. Just mute the track or
> instrument playing the hats.
My apologies Paul.. maybe I was mistaking this with someone else's in the
vast breadth of other posts on the subject. As it happens, I can't find your
particular post. But.....

39 posts over an 11-day period all offering various solutions to what would
be a simple answer on the equivalent Akai mailing list - "Assign the various
hi-hat samples to the same mute group - they will play polyphonically as
expected but will be mutually exclusive with one cutting the other off".
That's what the original poster wanted.

I have no axe to grind here - ss I mentioned, I am just astonished that such
a fundamental facility that has been in place elsewhere in hardware samplers
since 1990 is still absent 15 years later in what is purported to be (and
marketed as) a 'cutting edge' software product.

I happen to think that this is disgraceful and causes me to wonder what the
paper spec for this product was - too look good in press releases and ads to
sell the product or to be genuinely useful and versatile for users. The
former by the looks of it... lots of bells and whistles but the basics
overlooked!

In this respect, I think that Sascha is dead on the nail - dedicated drum
samplers seem to have the edge on the 'generic' sampler for such functions.

Which is fine - horses for courses. Use the best tool suited to the task in
hand.


Best regards,


Steve
http://www.hollowsun.com

On 23/08/2005, at 10:11 AM, Hollow Sun wrote:

>> I'm not sure specifically what you're referring to here. Muting hi
>> hats? If it is then it could not be more simple. Just mute the track 
>> or
>> instrument playing the hats.
> My apologies Paul.. maybe I was mistaking this with someone else's in 
> the
> vast breadth of other posts on the subject. As it happens, I can't 
> find your
> particular post. But.....

Mine was the post rather late in the thread, offering the idea of 
loading multiple EXS's across multiple instruments all with the same 
kit loaded. The ram footprint is no bigger than having just one loaded 
and it uses minimal more CPU cycles. This offers huge advantages for 
drum programming in general and gets around almost all the criticisms 
levelled at the exs for drums - including being able to simply mute the 
hats.


> 39 posts over an 11-day period all offering various solutions to what 
> would
> be a simple answer on the equivalent Akai mailing list - "Assign the 
> various
> hi-hat samples to the same mute group - they will play polyphonically 
> as
> expected but will be mutually exclusive with one cutting the other 
> off".
> That's what the original poster wanted.
>
> I have no axe to grind here - ss I mentioned, I am just astonished 
> that such
> a fundamental facility that has been in place elsewhere in hardware 
> samplers
> since 1990 is still absent 15 years later in what is purported to be 
> (and
> marketed as) a 'cutting edge' software product.

Even if you didn't want to use multiple EXS's, don't all of you put 
each drum sound (midi note) onto separate tracks (with the same 
instrument assigned) in arrange? If you did it would just be a matter 
of muting the midi track with the hats on them. Old Akai's be dammed!  
Who want's to fuss with setting up a mute group on a 2 line LCD?

> I happen to think that this is disgraceful and causes me to wonder 
> what the
> paper spec for this product was - too look good in press releases and 
> ads to
> sell the product or to be genuinely useful and versatile for users. The
> former by the looks of it... lots of bells and whistles but the basics
> overlooked!

This was one of the points of my last lengthy post that I asked if you 
read. I would of died of outrage many many times by now if I worried 
too much about the amount of BS and just plain misinformation I've seen 
in the arena of electronic instrument design over the last 25 years.

> In this respect, I think that Sascha is dead on the nail - dedicated 
> drum
> samplers seem to have the edge on the 'generic' sampler for such 
> functions.
>
> Which is fine - horses for courses. Use the best tool suited to the 
> task in
> hand.

I agree with you that it's horses for courses. Personally I don't feel 
the need to buy another interface - in this case a drum sampler - to 
achieve my desired level of functionality. If there was a kit that I 
loved the sound of that used it's own interface - now that's what has 
me get out my wallet. YMMV

Kind regards

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Paul Najar
Jaminajar Music Production
www.jaminajar.com

On 8/22/05 9:56 PM, "Paul Najar" <paulnajar@...> wrote:


> Even if you didn't want to use multiple EXS's, don't all of you put
> each drum sound (midi note) onto separate tracks (with the same
> instrument assigned) in arrange?

I would think so.

If you did it would just be a matter
> of muting the midi track with the hats on them. Old Akai's be dammed!
> Who want's to fuss with setting up a mute group on a 2 line LCD?
> 
This is where I think we are not all speaking about the same thing. Group
muting simply means that when one sample in a group is played, the act of
triggering it will mute any other sample in the group ie. Open Hhat won't
sound when Closed hhat of the same group is played...a basic function of
most drum machines and hardware samplers.

CWB

Paul Najar wrote:
>  including being able to simply mute the
> hats.

Muting hihats on a per track base defenitely is something entirely different from the "mute", "exclusive" or "choke" groups Steve
was talking about. This is about an open hat being shut down by triggering a closed one - and in that area the EXS is just doing no
good at all as the exclusive groupings are realized by polyphony rather than by MIDI note numbers - which is, what AKAIs and some
dedicated drum samplers are doing.

Btw, no, I almost never have my drum tracks as individual tracks. At least the basic groove is usually done all together in one
part. I only "demix by note pitch" (another lousy implementation in Logic, btw...) should I want to apply different delays or
q-values to individual instruments of the set.

Regards,
Sascha

> Mine was the post rather late in the thread, offering the idea of
> loading multiple EXS's across multiple instruments....
IC. Well, to *me* that sounds a fairly convoluted way to "simply mute the
hats".

> Old Akai's be dammed!
> Who want's to fuss with setting up a mute group on a 2 line LCD?
Well... actually mine is an 18 line LCD but I select my mute-group in a drop
down menu in ak.Sys on my Mac!

> I agree with you that it's horses for courses. Personally I don't feel
> the need to buy another interface....
Fine by me.

I am not defending one or criticising the other... just amazed (as I have
said) that the EXS doesn't have something as rudimentary as mute groups.


Best regards,


Steve
http://www.hollowsun.com

On 23/08/2005, at 7:19 PM, Sascha Franck wrote:

> Muting hihats on a per track base defenitely is something entirely 
> different from the "mute", "exclusive" or "choke" groups Steve
> was talking about. This is about an open hat being shut down by 
> triggering a closed one - and in that area the EXS is just doing no
> good at all as the exclusive groupings are realized by polyphony 
> rather than by MIDI note numbers - which is, what AKAIs and some
> dedicated drum samplers are doing.
>
> Btw, no, I almost never have my drum tracks as individual tracks. At 
> least the basic groove is usually done all together in one
> part. I only "demix by note pitch" (another lousy implementation in 
> Logic, btw...) should I want to apply different delays or
> q-values to individual instruments of the set.

Thanks Sascha for pointing that out. Getting the hats to cut one 
another off as per a live drummer is also achieved and saved at a song 
level by giving the hats it's own EXS with voices set to 1 (even for 
stereo samples) - but you probably already know that.

It's interesting to note just how differently we all like to work with 
this program.

Kind regards
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Paul Najar
Jaminajar Music Production
www.jaminajar.com

On 23/08/2005, at 7:28 PM, Hollow Sun wrote:

>> Mine was the post rather late in the thread, offering the idea of
>> loading multiple EXS's across multiple instruments....
> IC. Well, to *me* that sounds a fairly convoluted way to "simply mute 
> the
> hats".
>
>> Old Akai's be dammed!
>> Who want's to fuss with setting up a mute group on a 2 line LCD?
> Well... actually mine is an 18 line LCD but I select my mute-group in 
> a drop
> down menu in ak.Sys on my Mac!
>
>> I agree with you that it's horses for courses. Personally I don't feel
>> the need to buy another interface....
> Fine by me.
>
> I am not defending one or criticising the other... just amazed (as I 
> have
> said) that the EXS doesn't have something as rudimentary as mute 
> groups.

As I just said to Sascha it's interesting to note how differently we 
all like to work.

I have to fess up that I didn't follow the exhaustive hi hat thread 
very closely because as you now know I work somewhat differently to 
some others and with my approach, getting the hats to behave 
mophonically is very easy.

I'm sure this got kicked around a lot in that hats thread & I don't 
have Logic in front of me right now but from memory, isn't it possible 
to assign multiple zones to the one group and then specify how many 
voices that group is allowed and by assigning only one voice to the 
group wouldn't that qualify it as a mute group?

Regards

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Paul Najar
Jaminajar Music Production
www.jaminajar.com

On 23/08/2005, at 1:27 PM, Craig Beaumont wrote:

> On 8/22/05 9:56 PM, "Paul Najar" <paulnajar@...> wrote:
>
>
>> Even if you didn't want to use multiple EXS's, don't all of you put
>> each drum sound (midi note) onto separate tracks (with the same
>> instrument assigned) in arrange?
>
> I would think so.
>
> If you did it would just be a matter
>> of muting the midi track with the hats on them. Old Akai's be dammed!
>> Who want's to fuss with setting up a mute group on a 2 line LCD?
>>
> This is where I think we are not all speaking about the same thing. 
> Group
> muting simply means that when one sample in a group is played, the act 
> of
> triggering it will mute any other sample in the group ie. Open Hhat 
> won't
> sound when Closed hhat of the same group is played...a basic function 
> of
> most drum machines and hardware samplers.

Thanks Craig. Sascha just pointed this out also.

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Paul Najar
Jaminajar Music Production
www.jaminajar.com

> Getting the hats to cut one
> another off as per a live drummer is also achieved and saved at a song
> level by giving the hats it's own EXS with voices set to 1 (even for
> stereo samples) - but you probably already know that.
That's the point

Whilst you can do 'mute grouping' by setting an instance to mono, *all* the
samples in that instance will be mono giving rise to unnatural 'machine gun'
triggering which was the point of the original message - to have each sample
(open, closed, medium, foot... whatever) play 'polyphonically' but also be
mutually exclusive whereby the closed will shut off the open. It's as simple
as that but it seems that EXS is lacking in that area (as Sascha appears to
confirm).


Best regards,


Steve
http://www.hollowsun.com

On 8/23/05 5:19 AM, "Sascha Franck" <S.Franck@...> wrote:

>I only "demix by note pitch" (another lousy implementation in Logic,

I happen to like and use that function a lot, Sascha. How would you improve
it?

Craig

I have to fess up that I didn't follow the exhaustive hi hat thread
very closely because as you now know I work somewhat differently to
some others and with my approach, getting the hats to behave
mophonically is very easy.

I'm sure this got kicked around a lot in that hats thread & I don't
have Logic in front of me right now but from memory, isn't it possible
to assign multiple zones to the one group and then specify how many
voices that group is allowed and by assigning only one voice to the
group wouldn't that qualify it as a mute group?

Regards

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Paul Najar
Jaminajar Music Production
www.jaminajar.com

Absoluttely,that's the way it works  and this should ring the end of 
that thread.

Alain

At 16:19 Uhr +0200 23.08.2005, Alain BERTHE wrote:
>  isn't it possible to assign multiple zones to the one group and 
>then specify how many
>voices that group is allowed and by assigning only one voice to the
>group wouldn't that qualify it as a mute group?

Yes and thereby an open HiHat sound will cut off another open HiHat 
sound und thus cause a very unrealistic behaviour.

Closed sounds cutting off open sounds is fine, but what about the 
case above? That's what it was all about and the EXS simply can't do 
it.

Cheers
Hans

Craig Beaumont wrote:
> On 8/23/05 5:19 AM, "Sascha Franck" <S.Franck@...> wrote:
>
> >I only "demix by note pitch" (another lousy implementation in Logic,
>
> I happen to like and use that function a lot, Sascha. How would you improve
> it?

I haven't tried this in Logic7 yet, but so far it has been that a new track has been created for a) each note pitch (which is to be
expected) and b) each part - which is just as stupid as things can get. Usually I have like around 20-40 drum parts in my songs.
Now, let's assume each one would only use 4 pitches (kick, snare, 2 hats). After demixing 20 parts with 4 pitches each I'd end up
with 80 (in words: EIGHTY!!!) new tracks. And we all know that both 4 instruments and 20 parts aren't exactly a lot.
Ok, as I know of this problem, I could just merge all the parts together - but hello, where's all my custom namings, my custom
colorings and, most of all, my nicely trimmed parts that I can just copy around easily? Right on, they're freaking lost!
As said, this function is completely fucked up, there's no sense in calling it anything else.

On a funny sidenote: It has been just 100% the same in Cubase (who was stealing from whom?), and nobody has EVER been able to
explain this behaviour (easy: there's no need to explain extended dumbness). However, this is now fixed in Cubase SX and each pitch
extracts to one track only, regardless of how much source parts there are.

In addition, a function that I'd really like to see in Logics transformer (again, it's there in Cubases Logical Editor...) would be
"extract to selected track". Of course, I could just open and select a bunch of events in any other editor, cut them out and paste
them straight to a track, using "paste at original position", but once you used the function in Cubase you'd just love it. Can't be
any easier to extract, say, a snare to a separate track (and there's many other uses imagineable, such as extracting controller data
to separate tracks, something I'm doing quite often, etc...).
But then, for drums a proper demix function would most likely be sufficient, it's just that Logic doesn't do this properly.

Regards,
Sascha

At 16:19 Uhr +0200 23.08.2005, Alain BERTHE wrote:
>  isn't it possible to assign multiple zones to the one group and 
>then specify how many
>voices that group is allowed and by assigning only one voice to the
>group wouldn't that qualify it as a mute group?

Yes and thereby an open HiHat sound will cut off another open HiHat 
sound und thus cause a very unrealistic behaviour.

Closed sounds cutting off open sounds is fine, but what about the 
case above? That's what it was all about and the EXS simply can't do 
it.

Don't forget the trick with the samples of silence, include 2 samples of silence in the instrument, set the polyphony to 3 and when you want it to mute just press the 2 silent ones along with the closed HH or whatever you want to close with. That doens't mean that I don't want this feature included, I also had an Akai once, but it can be done. Just not so easily.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On 24/08/2005, at 1:38 AM, Hans Hafner wrote:

> Yes and thereby an open HiHat sound will cut off another open HiHat
> sound und thus cause a very unrealistic behaviour.

> Closed sounds cutting off open sounds is fine, but what about the
> case above? That's what it was all about and the EXS simply can't do
> it.

I see your point but why do you find that unrealistic? One open hat 
cuts of the next open hat as played by a real drummer. Would you like 
the option of having the open hat not cut off the next open hat? If 
your answer is yes then simply assign the same sample to another note 
number and different or no group and you're done. It would take me 
about 4 seconds to do that.

I'm still missing the point of this whole huge hi hat thread that I 
didn't read.
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Paul Najar
Jaminajar Music Production
www.jaminajar.com

Paul Najar wrote:
> I see your point but why do you find that unrealistic? One open hat
> cuts of the next open hat as played by a real drummer.

No, it doesn't. Think about a cymbal (which an opened hihat is). When you hit it, it'll just continue ringing when you hit it again.
The effect is geting even more drastic when using lots of dynamics. Thing swing cymbal stuff. There's usually a continuous pattern
going on with a few accents here and there. It's sounding highly unnatural when the low leveled hits are cutting off the accented
ones. Just the same applies to hihats.

> Would you like
> the option of having the open hat not cut off the next open hat?

Yes please.
Here's a very lame sorta rock drum pattern, 4 bars are using a polyphonic opened hat (DR-008/AKAI style), the next 4 bars are using
a monophonic one (EXS style). Pretty much a common 8th note pattern with varying amounts of accents on the full beats.
Mind you, this is no multimapped sample, the hat is also too loud, but it demostrates the issue quite properly, I think:
http://home.arcor.de/s.franck/temp/OpenHats.mp3
The last 4 bars just sound horrible.

>  If
> your answer is yes then simply assign the same sample to another note
> number and different or no group and you're done. It would take me
> about 4 seconds to do that.

It's not as easy with multimapped samples, plus, if you'd used something like a drum trigger thingy, you certainly wouldn't want
your open hats to be on different keys. I also don't like it when editing MIDI drums, but I do so occassionally anyways, simply
because on a keyboard they are more comfortable to record.
Still, even with 2 keys for your hats, the third stroke wouild cut stoke 1 off, which might still be ringing.

Seriously, the only solution to this problem would be having exclusive groups being polyphonic.

Regards,
Sascha

At 8:59 Uhr +0200 24.08.2005, Sascha Franck wrote:
>Here's a very lame sorta rock drum pattern, 4 bars are using a 
>polyphonic opened hat (DR-008/AKAI style), the next 4 bars are using
>a monophonic one (EXS style). Pretty much a common 8th note pattern 
>with varying amounts of accents on the full beats.
>Mind you, this is no multimapped sample, the hat is also too loud, 
>but it demostrates the issue quite properly, I think:
>http://home.arcor.de/s.franck/temp/OpenHats.mp3
>The last 4 bars just sound horrible.

Like a picture that says more than a thousand words.

Thank you Sascha!

Cheers
Hans

Sascha frank wrote: Seriously, the only solution to this problem would be having exclusive groups being polyphonic.

That, or a faster way to select all samples beneath a certain note. Preferably both but if you could select all samples beneath a certain note by just hitting the key above it wouldn't be such a big deal making new groups with multisampled instruments.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On 24/08/2005, at 4:59 PM, Sascha Franck wrote:

> Paul Najar wrote:
>> I see your point but why do you find that unrealistic? One open hat
>> cuts of the next open hat as played by a real drummer.
>
> No, it doesn't. Think about a cymbal (which an opened hihat is). When 
> you hit it, it'll just continue ringing when you hit it again.
> The effect is geting even more drastic when using lots of dynamics. 
> Thing swing cymbal stuff. There's usually a continuous pattern
> going on with a few accents here and there. It's sounding highly 
> unnatural when the low leveled hits are cutting off the accented
> ones. Just the same applies to hihats.
>
>> Would you like
>> the option of having the open hat not cut off the next open hat?
>
> Yes please.
> Here's a very lame sorta rock drum pattern, 4 bars are using a 
> polyphonic opened hat (DR-008/AKAI style), the next 4 bars are using
> a monophonic one (EXS style). Pretty much a common 8th note pattern 
> with varying amounts of accents on the full beats.
> Mind you, this is no multimapped sample, the hat is also too loud, but 
> it demostrates the issue quite properly, I think:
> http://home.arcor.de/s.franck/temp/OpenHats.mp3
> The last 4 bars just sound horrible.
>
>>  If
>> your answer is yes then simply assign the same sample to another note
>> number and different or no group and you're done. It would take me
>> about 4 seconds to do that.
>
> It's not as easy with multimapped samples, plus, if you'd used 
> something like a drum trigger thingy, you certainly wouldn't want
> your open hats to be on different keys. I also don't like it when 
> editing MIDI drums, but I do so occassionally anyways, simply
> because on a keyboard they are more comfortable to record.
> Still, even with 2 keys for your hats, the third stroke wouild cut 
> stoke 1 off, which might still be ringing.
>
> Seriously, the only solution to this problem would be having exclusive 
> groups being polyphonic.

Thanks for taking the time to explain that to me. I get it now.

Your audio example is clear.

This would normally be the end of my post but something was still 
nibbling at my brain - so I decided to do my own test.

I played an 8th note open hat pattern for 2 bars similar to the one in 
your pattern. I loaded a kit I use sometimes. The open hat only has 2 
samples in it and we are only triggering one of them. Max velocity is 
120, min is 9 - a big difference - to see weather I can get them to 
glitch like yours.

The first 2 bars are on isnt 1 with EXS set to 1 voice. The 3rd & 4th 
bars is an alias copy of the first pattern onto inst 2 where the EXS is 
is set to allow 8 voices with the same kit loaded.

I can't hear a difference between the two patterns. Tell me what you 
think? <http://www.jaminajar.com/EXS/exs_hat_test.mp3>

Regards

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Paul Najar
Jaminajar Music Production
www.jaminajar.com

At 10:14 Uhr +1000 25.08.2005, Paul Najar wrote:
>I can't hear a difference between the two patterns. Tell me what you
>think? <http://www.jaminajar.com/EXS/exs_hat_test.mp3>

I have the feeling that first of all the HiHat sound you're using is 
completely different and you're setting the ear up to expect exactly 
what is there. A pattern going:

open eighth - closed eighth

with the open HiHat not sounding quite as long. If you had programmed 
a couple of quarter notes in there like in Saschas example it would 
become much more apparent because then we could hear the complete 
open HiHat sound and know when it doesn't complete it's playtime.

Your example does indeed not exhibit what Saschas example showed and 
I agree, you managed to get a workaround by setting up the pattern 
differently.

But that is not the point. Logic shouldn't dictate the way we have to 
program music. And that is the problem we're talking about.

But it doesn't sound like a "real" played HiHat pattern would sound 
whereas Saschas does sound more like that. And that is the reason why 
the EXS does in fact need improvement here.

I'm going to again write a request on the godforsaken feedback page 
that no one knows if it's actually going to be read.

Cheers
Hans

PS: I hate talking about music. It's so much more complicated then 
let's say talking about sports. :-)

On 25/08/2005, at 2:58 PM, Hans Hafner wrote:

> At 10:14 Uhr +1000 25.08.2005, Paul Najar wrote:
>> I can't hear a difference between the two patterns. Tell me what you
>> think? <http://www.jaminajar.com/EXS/exs_hat_test.mp3>
>
> I have the feeling that first of all the HiHat sound you're using is
> completely different and you're setting the ear up to expect exactly
> what is there. A pattern going:
>
> open eighth - closed eighth

This could be a clue. The pattern I played is all the same note number 
- the open hat playing eighth notes at varying velocities.

> with the open HiHat not sounding quite as long. If you had programmed
> a couple of quarter notes in there like in Saschas example it would
> become much more apparent because then we could hear the complete
> open HiHat sound and know when it doesn't complete it's playtime.

OK. I'll do the same test but put some quarter notes in the pattern.

> Your example does indeed not exhibit what Saschas example showed and
> I agree, you managed to get a workaround by setting up the pattern
> differently.

Are you saying that the pattern is different or the way I've set up the 
mono and poly hat groups? If it's the latter then this is what my hunch 
(unproven) has had me wondering all along - that the voice handling of 
a EXS mono group within one instrument is different to the voice 
handling setting the whole EXS voice number to 1.

> But that is not the point. Logic shouldn't dictate the way we have to
> program music. And that is the problem we're talking about.

I don't dispute what you guys are saying, I'm having difficulty 
duplicating your behaviour.

> But it doesn't sound like a "real" played HiHat pattern would sound
> whereas Saschas does sound more like that. And that is the reason why
> the EXS does in fact need improvement here.
>
> I'm going to again write a request on the godforsaken feedback page
> that no one knows if it's actually going to be read.

Give us 15 minutes to put up that other example.

> PS: I hate talking about music. It's so much more complicated then
> let's say talking about sports. :-)

So true! Email makes this kind of conversation harder...


:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Paul Najar
Jaminajar Music Production
www.jaminajar.com

OK. Further investigation I see exactly what's happening now. You're 
right!

It's just hardly ever come up for me over the years because usually 
when I do that wooshy open hat vibe it's quarter notes and I usually 
use a mid woosh hat rather than a full open hat. I agree it does need 
some attention.

Regards
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Paul Najar
Jaminajar Music Production
www.jaminajar.com

>>> I only "demix by note pitch" (another lousy implementation in Logic,
>> 
>> I happen to like and use that function a lot, Sascha. How would you improve
>> it?
> 

> After demixing 20 parts with 4 pitches each I'd end up
> with 80 (in words: EIGHTY!!!) new tracks. And we all know that both 4
> instruments and 20 parts aren't exactly a lot.
> Ok, as I know of this problem, I could just merge all the parts together - but
> hello, where's all my custom namings, my custom
> colorings and, most of all, my nicely trimmed parts that I can just copy
> around easily? Right on, they're freaking lost!

I don't often use as many but that has also been a frustration of mine when
it comes to getting all those tracks into manageable view. Makes you think
twice about cost effectiveness when things need to be done quickly.
> 
> In addition, a function that I'd really like to see in Logics transformer
> (again, it's there in Cubases Logical Editor...) would be
> "extract to selected track".

Yes! Yes! Yes! Can't remember clearly but seemed that we had that with the
old Notator.

> it's just that Logic doesn't do this properly.

That is my biggest frustration with this otherwise excellent program...that
what I would consider no-brainer functions have either been omitted or
incompletely enabled.

Logic programmers please pay attention!

Best wishes!

Craig

--- In exs-users@yahoogroups.com, Hollow Sun <steve@h...> wrote:
> > Getting the hats to cut one
> > another off as per a live drummer is also achieved and saved at a song
> > level by giving the hats it's own EXS with voices set to 1 (even for
> > stereo samples) - but you probably already know that.
> That's the point
> 
> Whilst you can do 'mute grouping' by setting an instance to mono, *all* the
> samples in that instance will be mono giving rise to unnatural 'machine gun'
> triggering which was the point of the original message - to have each sample
> (open, closed, medium, foot... whatever) play 'polyphonically' but also be
> mutually exclusive whereby the closed will shut off the open. It's as simple
> as that but it seems that EXS is lacking in that area (as Sascha appears to
> confirm).

Sorry if this has already been suggested, but what if you were to assign the hihats twice 
within the same instrument (let's say an octave apart); assign each set of hats to it's own 
group; and each group set to one voice. You can get the polyphonic effect by alternating 
notes (Bb2 / Bb3) and mute notes when desired by triggering within the same group. You 
could also add a zone per group without a sample loaded for use as a silent mute, instead 
of using a closed hihat. If you want to get fancy, you could even alter the pitch and or/pan 
slightly of the second HiHat set to create a more natural feel. Or better yet, use a 'b' 
version (sample) of each HiHat assigned to the second group.


Matt
http://www.millertone.com

mandcmiller wrote:
> Sorry if this has already been suggested, but what if you were to assign the hihats twice
> within the same instrument (let's say an octave apart); assign each set of hats to it's own
> group; and each group set to one voice. You can get the polyphonic effect by alternating
> notes (Bb2 / Bb3) and mute notes when desired by triggering within the same group. You
> could also add a zone per group without a sample loaded for use as a silent mute, instead
> of using a closed hihat. If you want to get fancy, you could even alter the pitch and or/pan
> slightly of the second HiHat set to create a more natural feel. Or better yet, use a 'b'
> version (sample) of each HiHat assigned to the second group.

Well, this is just another workaround. It's also just partially polyphonic as, in case you were alternating between your hats, eacht
third hit would again cut the first one (so on longer ringing samples it'd again be insufficient).
Also, it's a plague to edit such patterns. I prefer having my individual drum instruments on one key only.

Btw, the issue has been adressed in Battery 2, which I just got. It has become a truly great drum sampler now (allways had some
complaints about version 1), I can highly recommend it. Until the appearance of Drum 9 I will never use anything else for
samplebased drums anymore.

Regards,
Sascha