The Logic Off Topic list

>Just leave it alone. The
> only time someone should be moderated is when they threaten and insult
> others.

  Look guys whats wrong with a bit of gratuitous insult . If there is one
thing that passes the time well its some creative insulting . I mean I
disagree with just about everything the tassie devil writes and I have
occasionally been moved to a pithy reply ,so far deleted,but who gives a
shit ??Not me mostly ...
 I love a bit of a stoush and I'm sure others do as well and if you dont
like it dont bloody read it ,there are namby pamby sites dotted all over the
web ,go there . Go and spend the week in disneyland for christs sake .
  Who cares if some jerk off threatens you , what can he threaten you with
?? at most he can screw your system temporarily ,is he or she gonna get on a
plane hire a private detective track you down and beat you up ?  Is he gonna
access your card numbers and try a rip off ...whats he gonna do ... nothing
thats what ....except shake your self image a little ...nothing wrong with
that ,I haven't come across a self image yet that couldn't benefit from a
good rattle .
   Jeremy you are inexperienced and wrong ,stop listening to those wankers
,start listening to these wankers . Dennis is an infuriating individual ,
thats part of his charm, you cant tell the bloke anything but it's such fun
trying that I would hate to think I may never read one of his letters again
. It seems to me that a lot of this heat is coming from people who dont
contribute much at all and so you are in danger of reducing the list to
nothing . Hendrik has to be one of the rudest people I've ever come across
with his intellectual superiority but I like reading what he says and
looking for internal inconsistencies so I could crucify him if I wanted to
,it's FUN for grown ups .
    May I remind you that the society that overcontrols and dictates ALWAYS
produces violent extremism  ,   Back up a little there mate please .
                                                      Paul

--- In logic-ot@y..., "Paul Wheeler&Kerry Higgs" <hilltop@i...> 
wrote:

a whole heap of quite violent internal dialogue. i'm not surprised 
this list is moderated.

>  Look guys whats wrong with a bit of gratuitous insult.

Er ... quite a lot I would say. Particularly the gratuitous bit.

> If there is one
> thing that passes the time well its some creative insulting.

Creative insulting - now that's a different thing particularly when benign and
funny.

> I mean I
> disagree with just about everything the tassie devil writes and I have
> occasionally been moved to a pithy reply ,so far deleted,but who gives a
> shit ??Not me mostly ...

That's alright then ...

> I love a bit of a stoush and I'm sure others do as well and if you dont
> like it dont bloody read it ,there are namby pamby sites dotted all over the
> web, go there.

And conversely there are gratuitous and insulting sites/forums/mailing lists
that you can go to.

> Go and spend the week in disneyland for christs sake.

??

> Who cares if some jerk off threatens you , what can he threaten you with
> ?? at most he can screw your system temporarily ,is he or she gonna get on a
> plane hire a private detective track you down and beat you up ?  Is he gonna
> access your card numbers and try a rip off ...whats he gonna do ... nothing
> thats what ....except shake your self image a little ...nothing wrong with
> that ,I haven't come across a self image yet that couldn't benefit from a
> good rattle.

This does make some sense ... I don't get off on threats and would rather not
have to experience them tho they dont have much of an effect on me. I appreciate
some people are less/more sensitive than this. Clearly you are less sensitive
and maybe Jeremy more so.

> Jeremy you are inexperienced and wrong, stop listening to those wankers
> ,start listening to these wankers.

Not wrong - just proferring his opinion as u are now. I am not sure how you can
base your claim that Jeremy is inexperienced given that he believes insults
require moderation. Do you moderate any lists yourself?

> Dennis is an infuriating individual ,
> thats part of his charm, you cant tell the bloke anything but it's such fun
> trying that I would hate to think I may never read one of his letters again
> . It seems to me that a lot of this heat is coming from people who dont
> contribute much at all and so you are in danger of reducing the list to
> nothing.

I would agree that a non-expressive over-polite mailing list would be dull as
fuck.

> Hendrik has to be one of the rudest people I've ever come across
> with his intellectual superiority but I like reading what he says and
> looking for internal inconsistencies so I could crucify him if I wanted to
> ,it's FUN for grown ups.

Your assertion that all grown ups find this fun is way off.

> May I remind you that the society that overcontrols and dictates ALWAYS
> produces violent extremism  ,   Back up a little there mate please .

Jesus this is a mailing list fercrissakes not some hyper-tuned societal regime
we all have to live under. Is it not up to the list owner to decide the nature
of how decisions are made regarding its content? If people don't like it they
just unsubscribe and form their own list ... simple really. Hows about
[LUG -Creative Insults for the under 5s]?

It seems "free" societies don't work. Most wanky psychology literature will
argue that humans for the most part require some structure, routine and a level
of control otherwise people lose themselves. I am not sure I have an opinion
myself given my misanthropic belief that all systems suck cos ppl suck.

Just another (less insulting) opinion ...

Tony Perretta

Thoughts from the mind of Paul Wheeler&Kerry Higgs, 21-10-2002:

>Hendrik has to be one of the rudest people I've ever come across
>with his intellectual superiority but I like reading what he says and
>looking for internal inconsistencies so I could crucify him if I wanted to
>,it's FUN for grown ups .

Are you serious?  Hmpff...  Oh well, you're too dumb to understand anyway :-)).

For the rest: thanks for a post that expresses ideas I can 
wholeheartedly subscribe to -- and in a much funnier way than I would 
have managed.

Once more, I really don't like this moderation business here.  Tons 
of respect for the moderators and the unthankful job they do, really, 
but I think the OT list is OT by definition, and no subject should be 
moderated, ever.

I know there are people who tried to send mail to this list which 
hasn't gotten through because the moderators deemed it inappropriate. 
I know of a specific case where the "inappropriateness" was nothing 
more than "disagreeing with the admins", and *that* annoys me even 
more.  It's still a free society, right?

Probably some of the admins are young and relatively inexperienced, 
and that could account for some of these happenings.  That's okay 
with me -- we all gotta learn -- but I think by now it's time the 
admins should stop the moderation and just admit that they're about 
to cross a line (or have crossed a line) that shouldn't be crossed.

And then Joeri: no matter how much I like him and respect him (and I 
truly do), I don't see how his opinion is of much consequence.  Joeri 
stepped back as admin, and we now got to deal with "outselves" -- 
i.e. new admin team and subscribers.  Joeri's opinion is, in that 
sense, of no consequence imo.

-- 
Hendrik Jan Veenstra  <h@...>
Omega Art: http://www.ision.nl/users/h/index.html

Hey everyone loves a good insult. For example, who hasn't got mad at Dennis 
or HJ a time or two and given or received an insult? However, there have been 
some really sick individuals who have gone crazy and acted like they were 
going to stalk someone and kill them. I know because Joeri showed me some 
messages directed toward me which were not allowed to go through to the L-OT 
list. I think that level of harassment is inappropriate. But the occasional 
calling someone a wanker or whatever, is no big deal.

--- In logic-ot@y..., Hendrik Jan Veenstra <h@k...> wrote:
> I know there are people who tried to send mail to this list which 
> hasn't gotten through because the moderators deemed it 
> inappropriate. I know of a specific case where 
> the "inappropriateness" was nothing more than "disagreeing with the 
> admins", and *that* annoys me even more.  It's still a free 
> society, right?

The only non-political posts I rejected were from Dennis Gunn, just 
calling me "disgusting" more or less, in many different ways - I 
wanted to take that conversation up with him privately as I didn't 
really feel like it belonged on the list. Didn't realize anyone would 
miss that, but since you insist, I won't spare you all from it any 
longer .. 
 
> Probably some of the admins are young and relatively inexperienced, 
> and that could account for some of these happenings.  That's okay 
> with me -- we all gotta learn -- but I think by now it's time the 
> admins should stop the moderation and just admit that they're about 
> to cross a line (or have crossed a line) that shouldn't be crossed.

There are 8 of us admins now, one of whom just arrived back from 
vacation today, but we're almost done discussing this amongst 
ourselves. Regardless of if politics are allowed again on this list 
or not, there consensus so far has been that it was a Good Thing that 
I temporarily moderated the list to put an end to that last nasty 
discussion, and if politics *are* allowed back on this list the same 
thing will happen the next time it gets equally nasty. 

> And then Joeri: no matter how much I like him and respect him (and 
> I truly do), I don't see how his opinion is of much consequence.  
> Joeri stepped back as admin, and we now got to deal 
> with "outselves" -- i.e. new admin team and subscribers.  Joeri's 
> opinion is, in that sense, of no consequence imo.

... which is exactly why Joeri said that he felt that the opinions of 
the other admins who were more heavily involved with this meant more. 

Cheers
Jeremy

>The only non-political posts I rejected were from Dennis Gunn, just
>calling me "disgusting" more or less, in many different ways - I
>wanted to take that conversation up with him privately as I didn't
>really feel like it belonged on the list. Didn't realize anyone would
>miss that, but since you insist, I won't spare you all from it any
>longer ..

Good.  Because the above statement is demonstrably false.  Here is 
the first of my posts Jeremy censored in it's mistyped entirety.

>>Another reason why I felt I needed to "put my foot down": a very
>>similar thread came up on the Logic beta test list about a month ago.
>>It started on a Friday evening and over the weekend it "spread like
>>wildfire". By the time Emagic employees were around on Monday to put
>>a stop to it, it had became *extremely* nasty and even quite racist.
>
>Unless there are two beta tester groups this is simply untrue.  In 
>the one *I* belong to the political threads flair up and die down on 
>their own and the emagic employees let them live and die their 
>natural lives.  In the one *I* some posts were moved to another 
>folder when then thread had gotten long but by that point the 
>conversation had died on it's own and emagic had nothing to do with 
>it.
>
>
>>We really don't need something like that happening here...
>
>I miss Joeri.  I am outta here.

Could you show me the line in there where I called Jeremy disgusting?

Here is a post where I did use the word "disgusting" but I did not 
say he was disgusting I said I was disgusted with him and 
disappointed with Joeri.  The thing about disappointment is that you 
have to like or respect the person in the first place for it to 
happen that's why it was possible for me to be dissapointed with 
Joeri:

>Joeri writes:
>
>>Wow, I haven't read the OT list in a while, but I agree... this
>>might be waaaaay OT, even for the OT list.
>
>I could not be more disappointed in you or disgusted with Jeremy.

I would not bore any of you with any of this but it basically just 
irks the hell out of me read someone knowingly spreading falsities 
(there is a word for that) and then censoring the truth.

Of course I don't particularly expect Jeremy to let this one through 
either.  But just to give him the benefit of the doubt.

Thoughts from the mind of Jeremy Martin, 21-10-2002:

>--- In logic-ot@y..., Hendrik Jan Veenstra <h@k...> wrote:
>>  I know there are people who tried to send mail to this list which
>>  hasn't gotten through because the moderators deemed it
>>  inappropriate. I know of a specific case where
>>  the "inappropriateness" was nothing more than "disagreeing with the
>>  admins", and *that* annoys me even more.  It's still a free
>>  society, right?
>
>The only non-political posts I rejected were from Dennis Gunn, just
>calling me "disgusting" more or less, in many different ways - I
>wanted to take that conversation up with him privately as I didn't
>really feel like it belonged on the list. Didn't realize anyone would
>miss that, but since you insist, I won't spare you all from it any
>longer ..

It does belong on the list imo -- as long as whatever someone writes 
is triggered by what happens on this list, or by what the moderators 
decide or whatever.
If I write something on the list, or behave in a particular way that 
someone finds offensive or ridiculous, they have every right to say 
so in public.  It's then up to others maybe to decide on who is right 
and who is wrong.  I might then invite such a person to take it to 
private mail, esp. if it's of no further interest to the list, but 
the other is free to ignore such an inviation.

If you're a list-admin, I think you should exercise special care in 
forcing people to take things off-list.  Having the power and using 
it are 2 different things.

All my personal opinion of course, and not meant in any offensive 
way.  I just care more for freedom of speech than for anything else. 
Oh well, "anything else"...  my girlfriend might be the exception :-).

>consensus so far has been that it was a Good Thing that
>I temporarily moderated the list to put an end to that last nasty
>discussion, and if politics *are* allowed back on this list the same
>thing will happen the next time it gets equally nasty.

I don't agree that it got _that_ nasty.  Hey, a discussion about the 
Israeli/Palestine conflict is bound to become heated.  So what? 
Personally I'm just glad to see that people actually care enough 
about such matters to become "heated".  There's enough indifference 
in the world already.

In the past there have been list members who _really_ crossed a line, 
up to the point of openly becoming fascist about stuff, and 
threatening people.  Now *that's* a different story, and I think 
list-admins are there to correct such behaviour (i.e. expel someone 
from the list), but the case at hand was totally different...

>  > And then Joeri: no matter how much I like him and respect him (and
>>  I truly do), I don't see how his opinion is of much consequence. 
>>  Joeri stepped back as admin, and we now got to deal
>>  with "outselves" -- i.e. new admin team and subscribers.  Joeri's
>>  opinion is, in that sense, of no consequence imo.
>
>... which is exactly why Joeri said that he felt that the opinions of
>the other admins who were more heavily involved with this meant more.

... which is what I fully agreed with.

-- 
Hendrik Jan Veenstra  <h@...>
Omega Art: http://www.ision.nl/users/h/index.html

--- In logic-ot@y..., Dennis Gunn <dennisg@a...> wrote:
> >The only non-political posts I rejected were from Dennis Gunn, just
> >calling me "disgusting" more or less, in many different ways - I
> >wanted to take that conversation up with him privately as I didn't
> >really feel like it belonged on the list. Didn't realize anyone 
> >would miss that, but since you insist, I won't spare you all from 
> >it any longer ..
> 
> Good.  Because the above statement is demonstrably false.  Here is 
> the first of my posts Jeremy censored in it's mistyped entirety.

Unfortunately there is no record of rejected messages, and I didn't 
recall this post. "Thank you" for pointing it out. :P 
 
> >Unless there are two beta tester groups this is simply untrue.  In 
> >the one *I* belong to the political threads flair up and die down 
> >on their own and the emagic employees let them live and die their 
> >natural lives.  In the one *I* some posts were moved to another 
> >folder when then thread had gotten long but by that point the 
> >conversation had died on it's own and emagic had nothing to do 
> >with it.
> >
> >I miss Joeri.  I am outta here.
> 
> Could you show me the line in there where I called Jeremy 
> disgusting?

"I miss Joeri.  I am outta here." equates to the same thing.   
 
> Here is a post where I did use the word "disgusting" but I did not 
> say he was disgusting I said I was disgusted with him and 
> disappointed with Joeri.  The thing about disappointment is that 
> you have to like or respect the person in the first place for it to 
> happen that's why it was possible for me to be dissapointed with 
> Joeri:

My god you're good at being mean :-) 
 
> >Joeri writes:
> >
> >>Wow, I haven't read the OT list in a while, but I agree... this
> >>might be waaaaay OT, even for the OT list.
> >
> >I could not be more disappointed in you or disgusted with Jeremy.
> 
> I would not bore any of you with any of this but it basically just 
> irks the hell out of me read someone knowingly spreading falsities 
> (there is a word for that) and then censoring the truth.

I'm sorry, but I wasn't "knowingly spreading falsities". 

And yes, I am very proud to be a censor:

cen·sor 

2 : one who supervises conduct and morals: as a : an official who 
examines materials (as publications or films) for objectionable 
matter b : an official (as in time of war) who reads communications 
(as letters) and deletes material considered sensitive or harmful

3 : a hypothetical psychic agency that represses unacceptable notions 
before they reach consciousness
 
Jeremy

So... are we still being moderated?

On Monday, October 21, 2002, at 12:01 PM, Jeremy Martin wrote:

> cen·sor

My view is this: the opinions of the censor are arbitrary.

Example: shortly after Joeri started his version of the LUG there was a 
discussion which I participated in regarding the relative merits of the 
Be operating system. Joeri squashed several of my posts, delcaing it 
not on topic since there was no Logic on Be (despite Markus having 
expressed his interest in the OS)

6 months later - in the heady days when Markus was enthusing about Be's 
streaming capabilites - even developing Audiowerk driver for it - Joeri 
himself was writing messages concerning Be.

Nowadays we have regular discussion on the LUG about these same 
streaming capabilities - only they are under the banner of OSX and 
called "Audio Units".

go figure

So much for "moderation"

I applaud the creation of the OT list - it does remove clutter from the 
main list, and does perform a useful function in moving such banalities 
as platform wars over to a separate area. Furthermore, it allows 
discussion of issues which may not be "mainstream" today, but become so 
later.

That said - the OT list should not have any limits on discussion aside 
from patrolling for spam and trolls.

In the current discussion, I find myself agreeing with Denis who has 
been on the LUG ever since I can remember, and whose posts have been 
helpful and provocative from the beginning (hey, that's so far back 
that even Gerhard himself was on the list). If Denis left the LUG, it 
would be diminished. I disagree with him about missing Joeri, though, 
personally, I miss Fokke. :-)

To the current "admins" - keep doing the good work in ensuring that the 
main LUG stays focused on Logic issues. Direct what you will to the OT 
list - but do not try to apply any "conduct and morals" judgement to 
the OT. The list is not that busy anyhow. Everyone here is a 
responsible person. Responsible enough to make the decision whether to 
ignore or join in any discussion.

--- In logic-ot@y..., "kumpy105" <teddybut@e...> wrote:
> So... are we still being moderated?

Yes, a final decision still has not been made by all 8 of the admins.

On Monday, October 21, 2002, at 07:01  AM, logic-ot@yahoogroups.com 
wrote:
> Re: No Moderation
>
> Hey everyone loves a good insult. For example, who hasn't got mad at 
> Dennis
> or HJ a time or two and given or received an insult? However, there 
> have been
> some really sick individuals who have gone crazy and acted like they 
> were
> going to stalk someone and kill them. I know because Joeri showed me 
> some
> messages directed toward me which were not allowed to go through to 
> the L-OT
> list. I think that level of harassment is inappropriate. But the 
> occasional
> calling someone a wanker or whatever, is no big deal.

I never got mad at HJ, but who hasn't shared words with Dennis.  This 
is true.  One is bound to cross swords with Dennis given to 
opportunity.  Sooner or later, "ching, ching, ching, ching, ching.  
Aha, your sword is not match for blade you swine"..."Aha, I beg to 
differ you cad"...and a back it.  Yet, I think it is really starting to 
become the initiation process for the LUG.  "If you haven't cross 
swords with Dennis the Nemesis, than you are not a true Logic User 
yet."  But, I certainly didn't mind...I find him rather amusing.  At 
least he has his own set of balls...that is something that I can 
respect.

Yet, I do feel in favor of NO Censorship of the OT list.  However I did 
think the last issue just got a tad out hand.  I just feel at this 
point the "conflict" issue is misinterpreted by all, especially if 
positioned with bias.  I don't agree with any biased statements with 
regards to the issue of the "conflict", because I don't agree with 
either party...I think they are both stupid and immature wankers...LOL. 
  My feeling are this:

a.  My hateful side of me says:  Nuke the fuck out of all them, and the 
utter the words, "fight over that mother fucker...ain't that pretty, 
you're all fucking dead."

b.  But my loving side says:  Stop fighting, now.  Make a peaceful 
compromise and rational resolution that make everyone content to move 
on with their lives.

Now...which side would you prefer I acted on?

If one said "b" is the answer...then one assumes to have answered 
correctly...but then it goes with out saying...That...

The same should be expected of all of us.

Now, Aside from that, insults can be fun.  If one puts in the right 
light.  Who are we, if can't laugh at ourselves?

Hey, I called the Admins here the "mothers of prevention", doesn't mean 
that I don't value them.  I was just jabbing at the rather large list 
of mods on the list.  Since really it only used to be one person as the 
mod.

Now, one shouldn't take that to heart or be hurt by that...it is just a 
freakin' list.  Hey, I like a good insult.  It reminds me that we all 
have some integrity still left in our testicles [or ovaries].  Though 
being totally rude is off base.  But, One thing is to be Politically 
correct and the other to be Overtly Politically Correct to the point of 
being anal.
But, I like crafty insults...like:

"Hey, pay attention to what I wrote...I know it hard when you have ADD, 
but try harder...I wrote..."

Or one I really like is:
"Hmmm, the problem is not with the computer, the problem really seems 
to be between the chair and the screen."

Sorry, but I find it amusing...if you don't think that is funny, your 
lying and secretly when nobodies watching, you tune in to watch 
MadTV...In other words, a closet masturbator.  Have you ever asked a 
woman, "hey do you masturbate".  And they tell you things like "oh no, 
I don't do that...that's disgusting"...yeah right...bullshit.  Go her 
bathroom, look in her shower, if it has a removable shower head...she's 
tickling something once in while, especially if it is set to pulsate.

So, I find a good insult amusing.  Hey, we do it all the time.  If we 
don't then we are vulnerable to the concept of just exploding outward 
with regards to pent up aggression.  In other words if we don't release 
our anger or frustration, then we are effectively choking it all 
inside, which often lead to serious health problems.  Mind over matter 
works both ways.  You know the orgasm is a release as well.  And sex 
can often be the cure to a stressful day.  The orgasm is a release.  
Without release, you don't have transitions.  It is not about getting 
even, it is about getting mad at the moment when your mad.  The truest 
form of not caring is total indifference, lack of compassion and lack 
of empathy.  Those are the true demons.  Which seems a far more 
prevalent concept when dealing with the "conflict".  When one gets mad, 
it then passes onto something else, a transition to understanding.  
But, when one lacks empathy, then they effectively make no 
transitions...which seems largely the case when dealing with the 
"conflict".  A serious lack of empathy.

So, insults are okay in my book...so long as they are crafty and witty. 
  I don't mind be ridden once in while at my expense.  But it should be 
crafty.

Ever notice how phallic bullets and bombs look?

In other words...Everybody in the world needs to toss off more often.  
That way, we are less prone to tossing off insults, bullets and bombs 
at one another.  Sharon and Arafat need yank their puds...a little "oh 
yeaaahh....ahhhhhhh"... before going to discuss issues at summit 
meetings.  Yet, Bush Jr. needs to be sticking it in a bush too.  
Really, I think it should be requirement while in office to be sexually 
actively, otherwise a limp dick leader is prone to causing problems.  
Creating a whole new outlook on the JFK and Clinton administrations.  
Sounds like we need to incorporate a new job opportunity with the job 
title that reads "White House Fluffer".  Most qualified 
applicant...Monica Lewinsky.  Perhaps I have made this offensive 
enough...but truth be known, we are all getting a little too uptight in 
this world.  We need to all loosen up a bit.  Because this is the end 
result of people being to much of this or being to much of that.  The 
pendulum has to stop swinging from side to side, and placed right at 
the middle.  That way history won't allow us to repeat the same 
mistakes.

Just think, in world of tossing off...slippery floors, but happy people.
Giving new meaning to signs like "Please Watch you step", "Caution: 
Slippery when wet" or "Please curb you dog".

Completely OT, has anyone seen the new Jack in the Box commercial.
Two guys in an elevator, the elevator has a Jack in the Box drive 
through box installed in it.  Now one guy seems to be holding a batch 
of flowers.  The other guy seems to be going somewhere.  The Box then 
says "Women...you can't live without women...ay?"  The guy with flowers 
says..."Yeah".  Then a slight pause...then the box breaks silence with 
"Just like .99 cent taco's...you just can't live without .99 cent 
taco's".  The other guy starts busting out in laughter.  Think about 
it...kind of funny to see someone get away with concepts like these.

One can be brazen with subtleties.

Peace,
Alexis

>
>  > Could you show me the line in there where I called Jeremy
>>  disgusting?
>
>"I miss Joeri.  I am outta here." equates to the same thing.

Is that right?  And which thesaurus would that simile be found in?

>  > I would not bore any of you with any of this but it basically just
>>  irks the hell out of me read someone knowingly spreading falsities
>>  (there is a word for that) and then censoring the truth.
>
>I'm sorry, but I wasn't "knowingly spreading falsities".

Then is lying whilst suppressing the truth a better term?

>And yes, I am very proud to be a censor:
>
>cen·sor
>
>2 : one who supervises conduct and morals: as a : an official who
>examines materials (as publications or films) for objectionable
>matter b : an official (as in time of war) who reads communications
>(as letters) and deletes material considered sensitive or harmful
>
>3 : a hypothetical psychic agency that represses unacceptable notions
>before they reach consciousness

I do not accept Jeremy's authority as a judge of conduct, morals, or 
unacceptable notions particularly since he has lied about me while 
suppressing my ability to respond.

He even seems to have censored his dictionary.  Where is # 1?

>  who hasn't shared words with Dennis.

The vast and rational majority of LUGers.

>   This
>is true.  One is bound to cross swords with Dennis given to
>opportunity.  Sooner or later, "ching, ching, ching, ching, ching. 
>Aha, your sword is not match for blade you swine"..."Aha, I beg to
>differ you cad"...and a back it.  Yet, I think it is really starting to
>become the initiation process for the LUG.  "If you haven't cross
>swords with Dennis the Nemesis, than you are not a true Logic User
>yet."  But, I certainly didn't mind...I find him rather amusing.  At
>least he has his own set of balls...that is something that I can
>respect.

Well anyway thanks for the kind words.  it's nice to know that there 
is a consensus that I am an asshole.

> > Well anyway thanks for the kind words.  it's nice to
> > know that there is a consensus that I am an asshole.
> 

I don't see you as an asshole, more of a "my shit
don't stink know it all"
                         Regards,
                               SRP3

Thoughts from the mind of Dennis Gunn, 22-10-2002:

>Well anyway thanks for the kind words.  it's nice to know that there
>is a consensus that I am an asshole.

No, no, I think you misinterpreted Alexis' words.  I'm quite sure he 
meant "a good, kind and valued asshole", and that's something 
entirely different :-).

-- 
Hendrik Jan Veenstra  <h@...>
Omega Art: http://www.ision.nl/users/h/index.html

FWIW, I too believe OT should be OT free and (virtually) unrestricted. I
remember things getting a lot hotter about a year ago compared to the stuff
that has been on the list recently.  In any case, IMO the heated discussions
are usually the most interesting.

Otherwise we may need yet another list. SOT (Sortof Off Topic) and/or
TOT(Totally of Topic).

S.

Thoughts from the mind of Jeremy Martin, 21-10-2002:

>  > Could you show me the line in there where I called Jeremy
>>  disgusting?
>
>"I miss Joeri.  I am outta here." equates to the same thing.

Jeremy, you're treading on dangerous ground here imo.  Whether 
something equates to something else is a value-judgement, and thus by 
definition subjective.  In general this is no good ground for a 
discussion, and even worse for behaviour that affects individuals 
(Dennis in this case, and in the long run the entire list).

It's like those saying that, whenever someone criticizes Israel's 
behaviour, you're being anti-semitic.  There's a world of difference 
between critique and hatred.  Yet somehow it often seems to be 
convenient to believe the two "equate to the same thing".  It's a 
rather efficient (though irrational and invalid) way to discard of 
the opposition.

-- 
Hendrik Jan Veenstra  <h@...>
Omega Art: http://www.ision.nl/users/h/index.html

On Tuesday, October 22, 2002, at 07:57  AM, logic-ot@yahoogroups.com 
wrote:
> Re: No Moderation
>
> Thoughts from the mind of Dennis Gunn, 22-10-2002:
>
>> Well anyway thanks for the kind words.  it's nice to know that there
>> is a consensus that I am an asshole.
>
> No, no, I think you misinterpreted Alexis' words.  I'm quite sure he
> meant "a good, kind and valued asshole", and that's something
> entirely different :-).

ROTLMAO!!!!  :-))))

Now, that was funny.

Peace,
Alexis

Hi Guys...

I never really read this list, and I'll tell you why later.  But I was asked to come 
in and be a bit more active for a moment, so here I am. :)

--- In logic-ot@y..., Dennis Gunn <dennisg@a...> wrote:
> >>Jeremy:
> >>a very
> >>similar thread came up on the Logic beta test list about a month ago.
> >>It started on a Friday evening and over the weekend it "spread like
> >>wildfire". By the time Emagic employees were around on Monday to put
> >>a stop to it, it had became *extremely* nasty and even quite racist.
> >
> >Unless there are two beta tester groups this is simply untrue.  In 
> >the one *I* belong to the political threads flair up and die down on 
> >their own and the emagic employees let them live and die their 
> >natural lives.  In the one *I* some posts were moved to another 
> >folder when then thread had gotten long but by that point the 
> >conversation had died on it's own and emagic had nothing to do with 
> >it.

Dennis my love, you know how much you mean to me, but the way it seemed 
to me is that the anti-American, anti-Semetic rhetoric didn't so much die down 
as the number of posts grew so high that the people expressing those views 
were trapped among other diatribes.  And it didn't die down before Sascha 
moved it--it was still going up until the moment that the thread was lifted from 
the active folder and he asked us all to stop.

Now, maybe you feel my understanding of the thread is perhaps comprimised 
by being Jewish.  Fair enough.  My point is not to argue how uncolored my 
politics are.  My point is to illustrate two things: that these things get out of 
hand, and that THIS IS A GROUP PARTAINING TO LOGIC SOFTWARE, not a 
world politics round table.

Why do I not bother around here very often?  Because that's what happens.  
Just when I start getting into some thread about a function in Logic, or future 
directions in computer music, someone who is in love with their own text and 
doesn't have a sense of propriety is going to throw a firery political opinion.  
And I'm always left wondering why they don't join political groups, or if they 
already have, why they feel that they need to sneak in a policy analysis 
between tips and tricks for the Hyper Editor. 

In an ideal world, no moderation would be necessary, because people could 
be trusted to use a "Logic User Group Off Topic" list to discuss those Logic-
related subjects that are veering from the more directed discussions on the 
Logic User Group.  But there's always somebody who things "freedom of 
speech" translates to "listen to anything I have to say about any topic when I 
want to say it because my fetish for voicing opinions on whatever I want 
wherever I want is more important than the topic that binds this group."

So what happens is people like me simply don't come around these parts, 
because of the poor signal-to-noise ratio.  Maybe this is a good thing. ;)  Or 
maybe I might have some insight, tips and tricks, maybe a little wisdom to add.  
But as long as every time I come by there's a platform war, some politics, 
whatever, I'm gone.

***Moderated or unmoderated status, this Logic-OT list will never be a real 
"Logic software lounge" until those of us who have no interested in flaming 
are comfortable we can enjoy ourselves here.***

And Dennis, please lay off Jeremy.   If you feel that he's "mishandling" your 
posts, please take it up with him privately.  He is one of the most sensitive and 
insightful people I know; he's way more level-headed at his age than a lot of 
posters here are who are twice as old.

Love and Rockets,
Elvis

mercutio <mercutio@...> writes
> As it turns out, I am interested in the "moderation" debate... 
> of course, since it has nothing directly to do with Logic - am 
> I to assume that messages on this thread are merely being 
> tolerated? or are they really "ok"?

I never meant to imply messages here had to relate to Logic... just 
to music in general. E.g. message about politics that *directly* 
relate to music would be just fine IMO, such as messages talking 
about new laws that might get passed that would directly effect the 
music industry, etc. I thought that it was always implied that this 
list was still music related, though upon further inspection I see 
that was never stated in big bold letters for all to see, it was just 
something many of the admins assumed was known by everyone. We should 
of had a clearly visible list policy/guidelines for all to see over 
here, like we do on the LUG. 

> Here is my definition L is for logic user - that would be all 
> of us. OT is for off topic - which can mean anything.

As I mentioned above, the definition to me and many of the other 
admins, was that this list was to still be focued on music somehow. 
Not Logic specifically, but still loosely related to music in 
general. 

> Anyhow: here is a question Jeremy could answer: How big is the 
> L-OT list?

The main "Home" webpage for all groups say the size of the list. 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/logic-ot/ says we have 608 members 
right now (and 9265 in the LUG).

> From my observation - this list does not seem to have very many 
> members, perhaps much less than the main LUG. If this is the 
> case... I would say that fewer participants = less need for 
> moderation.

I agree completely. However each mailing list has a topic it's about, 
and it was my understanding that this list's topic was "musical 
issues that are too off topic for the LUG, but still of interest to 
the large number of musicians in this community". Not "anything and 
everything LUG members want to write about over here"... 

Hendrik writes
> Jeremy, you're treading on dangerous ground here imo. 
> Whether something equates to something else is a value-judgement, 
> and thus by definition subjective. In general this is no good 
> ground for a discussion, and even worse for behaviour that affects 
> individuals (Dennis in this case, and in the long run the entire 
> list).

I agree - I shouldn't have rejected that particular post. It was 
written during the time that many people were still posting many more 
political mails (contrary to arguments made by some that the 
political thread was ending on its own and didn't need to be 
moderated), so I probably was a little to "reject happy" at the time, 
trying to force this list to return to its normal state. Sorry about 
that!

Jeremy

On Tuesday, October 22, 2002, at 07:57  Jeremy Martin wrote:
> My god you're good at being mean :-)

Well now Jeremy, now that you have crossed swords with Dennis.  How 
does it feel to be a true member of the LUG.  You now have been truly 
initiated to the round table.  How do you feel...Speech, speech, 
speech, speech...

LOL
Peace,
Alexis

> On Tuesday, October 22, 2002, at 07:57  Jeremy Martin wrote:
> > My god you're good at being mean :-)

--- In logic-ot@y..., Alexis Aiosa <wirehead1@a...> wrote:
> Well now Jeremy, now that you have crossed swords with Dennis.  How 
> does it feel to be a true member of the LUG.  You now have been 
> truly initiated to the round table.  How do you feel...Speech, 
> speech, speech, speech...

Err, umm.. I hope this doesn't mean I have to start masturbating too 
(re: your other recent post?) :-) Really though, if nothing else, 
this recent "debacle" (according to some at least) has accomplished 
one good thing: it might just be me, but it seems like *we* are 
actually starting to get along more, even though we disagree about 
this censorship issue. Considering that many of my best friends over 
the years have been people I initially *really* didn't get along 
with, I wonder if this means eventually Dennis will come to love me 
too? Hehe.

Thoughts from the mind of Jeremy Martin, 22-10-2002:

>Hendrik writes
>  > Jeremy, you're treading on dangerous ground here imo.
>  >[...]
>
>I agree - I shouldn't have rejected that particular post.
>[...]
>so I probably was a little to "reject happy" at the time,
>trying to force this list to return to its normal state. Sorry about
>that!

Okay, thanks.  No hard feelings -- just thought I had to point this 
out.  Once more, despite my criticism of your last moderation-action, 
I do value greatly all that you and the co-moderators do.  Let that 
much be clear.  It's not a job I'd like to do.  Heck, I'm not even 
sure I would even be _able_ to do it...

-- 
Hendrik Jan Veenstra  <h@...>
Omega Art: http://www.ision.nl/users/h/index.html

Thoughts from the mind of Jeremy Martin, 22-10-2002:

>Err, umm.. I hope this doesn't mean I have to start masturbating too

Ahwmygod... are you *that* young -- that you haven't even *started* 
yet...??? And _you_ have to moderate _us_, old wankers?  Gosh...

>I wonder if this means eventually Dennis will come to love me too?

I'm sure Dennis loves us all.  He just at times has a peculiar way of 
showing it :-)


Ahw, the new Penthouse just arrived... Ah, ahhhh....  aaaaarrrrhhhhhh..........

-- 
Hendrik Jan Veenstra  <h@...>
Omega Art: http://www.ision.nl/users/h/index.html

Probably 90% of what I write contains some sarcasm of some kind but 
this post does not.  I sincerely want to thank all you people who 
have contributed to this list over (including you too Jeremy) the 
past few days for some real food for thought.

I think Paul summed up why censorship tends to be such a hot issue 
for people my age (just barely old enough to be a "boomer" at 43) in 
a way that I had never really thought about or had just kind of taken 
for granted.  And Alexis for demonstrating, in his inimitable way, 
real concern that I had never really figured on.  And Hendrik for 
being his usual logical self.

Unfortunately, however sincere these feelings are, the above is about 
my quota of maudlin schmalz for this year and I have to stop typing 
now because its time now for me transform back into the 
uncompromising asshole I normally am.

>I wonder if this means eventually Dennis will come to love me 
>too? Hehe. 

Is that love in a way that a mummy bear loves a daddy bear?... Or two
daddy bears who own lots of leather?

JR

HK wrote:
> Re: No Moderation
>
> Thoughts from the mind of Jeremy Martin, 22-10-2002:
>
>> Err, umm.. I hope this doesn't mean I have to start masturbating too
>
> Ahwmygod... are you *that* young -- that you haven't even *started*
> yet...??? And _you_ have to moderate _us_, old wankers?  Gosh...

ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Well now, we'll have to get him, his first top three, Playboy, 
Penthouse, and Hustler.

Then we have to put them down, discreetly on the coffee table, let him 
sneek away with them, and then we pretend they never existed.

The hard lesson to learn on that, is to keep pages from sticking.

>> I wonder if this means eventually Dennis will come to love me too?
>
> I'm sure Dennis loves us all.  He just at times has a peculiar way of
> showing it :-)

Yeah he does...otherwise he would left a long time ago.

> Ahw, the new Penthouse just arrived... Ah, ahhhh....  
> aaaaarrrrhhhhhh..........

ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

One finds a loving friend with Mary Thumb and her four friends.  Though 
I have tendency to want to use both hand, which really hampers turning 
the pages.

Peace,
Alexis

>> On Tuesday, October 22, 2002, at 07:57  Jeremy Martin wrote:
>>> My god you're good at being mean :-)
>
> --- In logic-ot@y..., Alexis Aiosa <wirehead1@a...> wrote:
>> Well now Jeremy, now that you have crossed swords with Dennis.  How
>> does it feel to be a true member of the LUG.  You now have been
>> truly initiated to the round table.  How do you feel...Speech,
>> speech, speech, speech...
>
> Err, umm.. I hope this doesn't mean I have to start masturbating too
> (re: your other recent post?) :-)

Only if ya need to!  Just remember...it's okay, it is healthy.
In Moderation of course. ;-)

I figure it this way, if you don't use it...ya will lose it.  So, 
exercise daily if needed...not to much though, remember, ya wanna be 
ready to "lock and load", should an opportunity arise.  Though with or 
without a sex partner, either way helps.  And you can always say, "what 
dry spell, no dry spell here.  I met with 7 women this week, and never 
had to wear a condom once."

Speaking of...though I don't like her music.  Britney Spears has a 
really nice ass...whew!  wow...I think it would be rather fun to curl 
her toes...Don't you?  Suffice to say, if the opportunity should ever 
come up...I will check the her bathroom and see if shower head is set 
to pulsate.

Perhaps, "L-OT: Toe Curling" would be nice added feature to the list, 
with Dr. Ruth Westheimer moderating.  Unt you can prrrovide grrreeeat 
stimulation to...

Something tell me, Dr. Ruth would make a great peace treaty advisor.

>  Really though, if nothing else,
> this recent "debacle" (according to some at least) has accomplished
> one good thing: it might just be me, but it seems like *we* are
> actually starting to get along more, even though we disagree about
> this censorship issue. Considering that many of my best friends over
> the years have been people I initially *really* didn't get along
> with,

This is the most interesting of circumstances.  This happens to me all 
the time.  The people I instantly gravitate to, 1 out every 4 become 
good friends.  This perhaps stems from too much commonality, that sets 
the tone to very boring friendship, or in other ways people change or 
don't.  For instance, I luv Macs, but I don't always love all Mac 
users.  Yet I have Mac and PC friends.  Yet once, I joined a forum for 
Peter Gabriel fans, and found, I don't like a large percentage of PG 
fans.  Suffice to say, I never ever joined a fan forum ever again.  It 
was just ruining my vibe.

Yet some people I despise, 2 out of every 4 become real good friends.  
Of course there are the people that I despise, and will never become 
friends with, because it is in their nature to annoy me and their true 
colors are very evident upon meeting them.  But I know that if I ever 
say went to a Logic users convention and met Dennis, I hold this as 
more of healthy rivalry, rather than despising a person who is drunk or 
annoying.  Just as I assume that HK and Dennis would do the same.  So, 
it would not be a battle of fisticuffs, but more like the old school 
days of rivalry..."Oh so we finally meet, you pompous ass, let's go 
have snifter of brandy and cuban."

> I wonder if this means eventually Dennis will come to love me
> too? Hehe.

Who knows?  That remains to be seen.

Peace,
Alexis

http://www.jackinworld.com/

very good sight for your introduction to the world of masturbation

it's not porn at all

teddybut

Dennis wrote:
> Probably 90% of what I write contains some sarcasm of some kind but
> this post does not.  I sincerely want to thank all you people who
> have contributed to this list over (including you too Jeremy) the
> past few days for some real food for thought.
>
> I think Paul summed up why censorship tends to be such a hot issue
> for people my age (just barely old enough to be a "boomer" at 43) in
> a way that I had never really thought about or had just kind of taken
> for granted.  And Alexis for demonstrating, in his inimitable way,
> real concern that I had never really figured on.  And Hendrik for
> being his usual logical self.

Hey, Thank you to Dennis.

> Unfortunately, however sincere these feelings are, the above is about
> my quota of maudlin schmalz for this year and I have to stop typing
> now because its time now for me transform back into the
> uncompromising asshole I normally am.

But more importantly, Thank you for this.  I wouldn't want you to 
compromise on this.  I rather liked the uncompromising quality and I am 
not to keen on the maudlin schmalz either.  So, keep up the good work.

I tip my hat to you sir.
Peace,
Alexis

Thoughts from the mind of Dennis Gunn, 23-10-2002:

>And Alexis for demonstrating, in his inimitable way,
>real concern that I had never really figured on.  And Hendrik for
>being his usual logical self.

Ai, yuck, yuck, drool, drool...

>Unfortunately, however sincere these feelings are, the above is about
>my quota of maudlin schmalz for this year and I have to stop typing
>now because its time now for me transform back into the
>uncompromising asshole I normally am.

Aahhhhh... thank god, we're back in business :-)  For a moment you 
really had me worried there mate...

-- 
Hendrik Jan Veenstra  <h@...>
Omega Art: http://www.ision.nl/users/h/index.html

Just to stay firmly OT for a moment :-)

One of the "no politics" messages a while back alluded that unmoderated 
lists would degenerate into some quagmire called a "newsgroup" as 
though a newsgroup was some kind of black hole.

My experience with newsgroups is that this is a useful, in fact, rich 
resource.

In fact, I would suggest to anyone on this list who hasn't already done 
so to set your newsreader to

rec.audio.pro

This particular newsgroup is an invaluable source of info on outboard 
gear, recording techniques, and opinion. It concerns all the gear/ideas 
that you will need to get sound into your Logic system and plenty of 
lore on mixing, mastering and other items we all deal with on a daily 
basis.

You will soon find that there are the usual platform wars, political 
haggling, off color jokes, in a word, it is unmoderated ... but any 
decent newsreader allows you ignore,kill or highlight any thread you 
chose. There are regular contributors who are real gems. A fellow named 
Scott Dorsey, who has worked every mic/pre recording scenario and is 
always helpful. Another is Bob Ohlson - his production credits go back 
4 decades and span every conceivable job the recording industry has to 
offer. Listen when he decides to join in.  Another is Fletcher, a high 
end audio dealer who speaks authoritatively about a broad range of 
technical issues - of course, he favors the products he carries, but he 
is the kind of dealer that really checks out a product before putting 
it on his roster.

There are others worth highlighting as well, you will discover.

I have been upgrading the front end of my studio this year and have 
found this group to be very useful indeed for discussion, requests, 
info, links and so forth. I have made a number of happy purchases that 
began with research here.

The particularly nice thing about newsgroups is that they are 
accessible to Google - so you can do an advanced search - say, for 
example,  you are considering buying a particular mic - Google will 
search for instance rec.audio.pro  and present the results with its 
usual efficiency and relevancy. Most useful.

I also sit on a couple of other newsgroups which I won't mention 
because they have nothing to do with music, Logic or for that matter 
politics. I have to say usenet is the most underrated protocol on the 
internet. Use the tools you have to eliminate spam and trolls and you 
have a wealth of info without having to login, without having to submit 
demographic information, without advertising and yes, without 
moderators - far from being a jungle, usenet is in fact a very pleasant 
place to visit.

(my apologies to anyone to whom this is not, umm... news)

--- In logic-ot@y..., Alexis Aiosa <wirehead1@a...> wrote:

> > Ahwmygod... are you *that* young -- that you haven't even *started*
> > yet...??? And _you_ have to moderate _us_, old wankers?  Gosh...
> 
> ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> Well now, we'll have to get him, his first top three, Playboy, 
> Penthouse, and Hustler.

Yes, I think you'd better take care of that yourself; I hear that with 
Hendrick Jan, it's more a case of: "A copy of this month's extra-hard 
logic puzzles, and a box of tissues please, newsagent." ;-)

Drizz