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Thread

Glossy printing with Eboni -- who needs a 4000?

2004-01-19 by Paul Roark

OK, this is a little half-baked, but the bottom line is that I've hit a dmax
of 2.28 on Ilford Galerie Smooth Pearl - with Eboni.  There is not
significant dusting or rub-off.

 

The secret is that the UT2 (and perhaps UT1) inks use a base that is the
glossy binder.  It's not an acrylic coating on the particle.  So, I don't
let Eboni sit there by itself - or barely at all.  So, to the extent there
is Eboni there, it is held by the base that carried the other inks into that
spot.  The best dmax so far is with the yellow position sepia toner pulled
out entirely at the 100% spot.  

 

Whether I can write full curves for this is untested.

 

So, there is more to do here before declaring any kind of victory, but we
may not need to mess with switching blacks any more.  Now that would be
nice.

 

Paul

www.PaulRoark.com <http://www.paulroark.com/>  



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

RE: [Digital BW] Glossy printing with Eboni -- who needs a 4000?

2004-01-19 by Paul Roark

More good news -- writing curves for Eboni-glossy printing was easy for
Ilford Pearl.  There is a cross-over in the sepia print, but it is so far
into the black that I can't see it.  Specifically, the 90% patch is 14 units
warm, the 95% is 4 units warm, and the 100% (at 2.29) is 9 units cool.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 
_____________________________________

Show quoted textHide quoted text

-----Original Message-----
From: Paul Roark [mailto:paul.roark@...] 
Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2004 7:00 PM
To: DigitalB&WPrint
Subject: [Digital BW] Glossy printing with Eboni -- who needs a 4000?

OK, this is a little half-baked, but the bottom line is that I've hit a dmax
of 2.28 on Ilford Galerie Smooth Pearl - with Eboni.  There is not
significant dusting or rub-off.

The secret is that the UT2 (and perhaps UT1) inks use a base that is the
glossy binder.  It's not an acrylic coating on the particle.  So, I don't
let Eboni sit there by itself - or barely at all.  So, to the extent there
is Eboni there, it is held by the base that carried the other inks into that
spot.  The best dmax so far is with the yellow position sepia toner pulled
out entirely at the 100% spot.  

Whether I can write full curves for this is untested.

So, there is more to do here before declaring any kind of victory, but we
may not need to mess with switching blacks any more.  Now that would be
nice.

Paul

www.PaulRoark.com <http://www.paulroark.com/>  

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  OWNER AND
MODERATORS OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE
POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY
TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR
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Re: [Digital BW] Glossy printing with Eboni -- who needs a 4000?

2004-01-19 by Editor P.O.V. Image Service

Paul Roark wrote:

>More good news -- writing curves for Eboni-glossy printing was easy for
>Ilford Pearl.  There is a cross-over in the sepia print, but it is so far
>into the black that I can't see it.  Specifically, the 90% patch is 14 units
>warm, the 95% is 4 units warm, and the 100% (at 2.29) is 9 units cool.
>  
>
AWESOME NEWS!

Love that Paper when I want RC and it's cheap too...

1)    Which printer are you testing this on?

2)      Has anyone sent you some of the Oriental Graphica FB to try this 
with?

3)      You should try it with Ilford  Smooth Glossy too once you have 
curves.. The Pearl curve should  be usable as is on the Glossy. I know 
the profiles for the two papers are nearly the same.

Keith Krebs

"Just some guy," caretaker of the Multiverse's largest EPSON printer 
User Community (highly recommended by Vogon Poets and MegaDodo 
Publications), at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EPSON_Printers/
and  the Multiverse's largest Canon printer User  Community at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Canon-printers
"For the rest of you out there, the secret is to bang the rocks together 
guys"

Re: [Digital BW] Glossy printing with Eboni -- who needs a 4000?

2004-01-19 by Editor P.O.V. Image Service

Paul Roark wrote:

>The secret is that the UT2 (and perhaps UT1) inks use a base that is the
>glossy binder.  It's not an acrylic coating on the particle.  So, I don't
>let Eboni sit there by itself - or barely at all.  
>

So the individual particles are JUST pigment and the binder is comprised 
of independent particles?

 
Keith Krebs

"Just some guy," caretaker of the Multiverse's largest EPSON printer 
User Community (highly recommended by Vogon Poets and MegaDodo 
Publications), at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EPSON_Printers/
and  the Multiverse's largest Canon printer User  Community at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Canon-printers
"For the rest of you out there, the secret is to bang the rocks together 
guys"

RE: [Digital BW] Glossy printing with Eboni -- who needs a 4000?

2004-01-19 by Paul Roark

I tried this UT2 & Eboni (or maybe no) black printing with Epson Premium
Glossy and Epson Glossy Photo Paper.  The dmax is lower than with Ilford or
Photo K, but still very good.  Premium Glossy hits 2.18, and cheap Glossy
Photo paper hits 1.91.

While the Glossy Photo Paper sounds low compared to other RC dmax numbers
we've been throwing around lately, it looks absolutely black.  I don't think
anyone would see any difference between this and the best.  I think part of
it is that the black is cold.  I've noticed, for example, that the
relatively cooler Eboni looks darker than the warmer Epson UC Matte black,
even though my densitometer says the Epson matte black is a bit darker.

All of the above seem to give the best dmax with the sepia toner pulled out
completely.  I'm not sure how much if any Eboni the printer is putting in
the mix.  The darkness of the UT2 cold ink is probably a major part of why
this is working so well.

I must say that with UT2 and when curves are used, I think we now have a
system that will print great on matte or glossy without changing the black
ink.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 
_______________________

Show quoted textHide quoted text

From: Paul Roark [mailto:paul.roark@...] 
...
More good news -- writing curves for Eboni-glossy printing was easy for
Ilford Pearl.  There is a cross-over in the sepia print, but it is so far
into the black that I can't see it.  Specifically, the 90% patch is 14 units
warm, the 95% is 4 units warm, and the 100% (at 2.29) is 9 units cool.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 
_____________________________________

-----Original Message-----
From: Paul Roark [mailto:paul.roark@...] 
Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2004 7:00 PM
...

OK, this is a little half-baked, but the bottom line is that I've hit a dmax
of 2.28 on Ilford Galerie Smooth Pearl - with Eboni.  There is not
significant dusting or rub-off.

 

The secret is that the UT2 (and perhaps UT1) inks use a base that is the
glossy binder.  It's not an acrylic coating on the particle.  So, I don't
let Eboni sit there by itself - or barely at all.  So, to the extent there
is Eboni there, it is held by the base that carried the other inks into that
spot.  The best dmax so far is with the yellow position sepia toner pulled
out entirely at the 100% spot.  

 

Whether I can write full curves for this is untested.

 

So, there is more to do here before declaring any kind of victory, but we
may not need to mess with switching blacks any more.  Now that would be
nice.

 

Paul

www.PaulRoark.com <http://www.paulroark.com/>  



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
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THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER
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BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
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MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
 


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Re: [Digital BW] Glossy printing with Eboni -- who needs a 4000?

2004-01-19 by bobphoto

Is this going to work on an 1160?

What happened to metamerism and mirror effect?

Does the process include spraying with Premier?

Show quoted textHide quoted text

----- Original Message -----
From: Paul Roark
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, January 19, 2004 12:24 AM
Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Glossy printing with Eboni -- who needs a 4000?

I tried this UT2 & Eboni (or maybe no) black printing with Epson Premium
Glossy and Epson Glossy Photo Paper. The dmax is lower than with Ilford or
Photo K, but still very good. Premium Glossy hits 2.18, and cheap Glossy
Photo paper hits 1.91.

While the Glossy Photo Paper sounds low compared to other RC dmax numbers
we've been throwing around lately, it looks absolutely black. I don't think
anyone would see any difference between this and the best. I think part of
it is that the black is cold. I've noticed, for example, that the
relatively cooler Eboni looks darker than the warmer Epson UC Matte black,
even though my densitometer says the Epson matte black is a bit darker.

All of the above seem to give the best dmax with the sepia toner pulled out
completely. I'm not sure how much if any Eboni the printer is putting in
the mix. The darkness of the UT2 cold ink is probably a major part of why
this is working so well.

I must say that with UT2 and when curves are used, I think we now have a
system that will print great on matte or glossy without changing the black
ink.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com
_______________________

From: Paul Roark [mailto:paul.roark@...]
...
More good news -- writing curves for Eboni-glossy printing was easy for
Ilford Pearl. There is a cross-over in the sepia print, but it is so far
into the black that I can't see it. Specifically, the 90% patch is 14 units
warm, the 95% is 4 units warm, and the 100% (at 2.29) is 9 units cool.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com
_____________________________________

-----Original Message-----
From: Paul Roark [mailto:paul.roark@...]
Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2004 7:00 PM
...

OK, this is a little half-baked, but the bottom line is that I've hit a dmax
of 2.28 on Ilford Galerie Smooth Pearl - with Eboni. There is not
significant dusting or rub-off.

The secret is that the UT2 (and perhaps UT1) inks use a base that is the
glossy binder. It's not an acrylic coating on the particle. So, I don't
let Eboni sit there by itself - or barely at all. So, to the extent there
is Eboni there, it is held by the base that carried the other inks into that
spot. The best dmax so far is with the yellow position sepia toner pulled
out entirely at the 100% spot.

Whether I can write full curves for this is untested.

So, there is more to do here before declaring any kind of victory, but we
may not need to mess with switching blacks any more. Now that would be
nice.

Paul

www.PaulRoark.com <http://www.paulroark.com/>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
they are often being updated.

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Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
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BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE OWNER AND
MODERATORS OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU
FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY
DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS,
GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE OWNER AND
MODERATORS OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE
POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY
TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR
ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY
THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER
MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.

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BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

RE: [Digital BW] Glossy printing with Eboni -- who needs a 4000?

2004-01-19 by Paul Roark

>Is this going to work on an 1160?

Sorry, UT2 and the ability to print on either glossy or matte with Eboni is
limited to hextone (or better) printers.

The huge change, of course, is for 1280/1290 CIS/CFS users and large format
printers where changing black inks is so expensive.  

(Changing carts is a hassle and expensive even with desktop printers.
Unless new carts are used [which wastes ink] changing seems to always
involve cleaning cycles, which not only wastes ink but also shortens the
time until printer service is required.)

I have now changed my recommendations concerning the use of CIS/CFS systems.
Due to the need to change inks, I was not in favor of these systems.  Now I
highly recommend a CIS with UT2 and Eboni for 1280/1290 printers.

The 7600/9600 is suddenly back on the radar also.  UT2 now has a significant
advantage over IP5 and UC systems for B&W printers. 

>What happened to metamerism and mirror effect?

There is no significant metamerism with UT2 inks.  That is a color inkset
problem.

The "mirror," "bronzing," and other surface artifacts are not entirely gone.
However, the "Eboni" glossy printing does eliminate the black v. gray
reflective differences -- no more overly-shiny, mirror-like blacks.

>Does the process include spraying with Premier?

To protect the print, I still think PremierArt Print Shield or Lyson Print
Guard are highly recommended.  They also reduce the bronzing.  They are not
necessary, however.  I have been doing sepia glossy prints lately and find
the "bronzing" is irrelevant for those prints.  I spray them only to protect
the image.

This morning I have found another potential difference with the "Eboni"
printing.  The dmax has not decreased the way a 100% Photo K dmax does.  For
example, while the dmax on Ilford Pearl with Photo K might be close to 2.4
initially, it decreases overnight, ending up closer to 2.2.  The Eboni print
stayed above 2.2 on Ilford.  On Epson Glossy Photo paper it actually
increased overnight, the way dmaxs do on matte papers.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 
_____________________________

Show quoted textHide quoted text

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Paul Roark 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Monday, January 19, 2004 12:24 AM
  Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Glossy printing with Eboni -- who needs a 4000?

  I tried this UT2 & Eboni (or maybe no) black printing with Epson Premium
  Glossy and Epson Glossy Photo Paper.  The dmax is lower than with Ilford
or
  Photo K, but still very good.  Premium Glossy hits 2.18, and cheap Glossy
  Photo paper hits 1.91.

  While the Glossy Photo Paper sounds low compared to other RC dmax numbers
  we've been throwing around lately, it looks absolutely black.  I don't
think
  anyone would see any difference between this and the best.  I think part
of
  it is that the black is cold.  I've noticed, for example, that the
  relatively cooler Eboni looks darker than the warmer Epson UC Matte black,
  even though my densitometer says the Epson matte black is a bit darker.

  All of the above seem to give the best dmax with the sepia toner pulled
out
  completely.  I'm not sure how much if any Eboni the printer is putting in
  the mix.  The darkness of the UT2 cold ink is probably a major part of why
  this is working so well.

  I must say that with UT2 and when curves are used, I think we now have a
  system that will print great on matte or glossy without changing the black
  ink.

  Paul
  www.PaulRoark.com 
  _______________________

  From: Paul Roark [mailto:paul.roark@...] 
  ...
  More good news -- writing curves for Eboni-glossy printing was easy for
  Ilford Pearl.  There is a cross-over in the sepia print, but it is so far
  into the black that I can't see it.  Specifically, the 90% patch is 14
units
  warm, the 95% is 4 units warm, and the 100% (at 2.29) is 9 units cool.

  Paul
  www.PaulRoark.com 
  _____________________________________

  -----Original Message-----
  From: Paul Roark [mailto:paul.roark@...] 
  Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2004 7:00 PM
  ...

  OK, this is a little half-baked, but the bottom line is that I've hit a
dmax
  of 2.28 on Ilford Galerie Smooth Pearl - with Eboni.  There is not
  significant dusting or rub-off.

  The secret is that the UT2 (and perhaps UT1) inks use a base that is the
  glossy binder.  It's not an acrylic coating on the particle.  So, I don't
  let Eboni sit there by itself - or barely at all.  So, to the extent there
  is Eboni there, it is held by the base that carried the other inks into
that
  spot.  The best dmax so far is with the yellow position sepia toner pulled
  out entirely at the 100% spot.  

  Whether I can write full curves for this is untested.

  So, there is more to do here before declaring any kind of victory, but we
  may not need to mess with switching blacks any more.  Now that would be
  nice.

  Paul

  www.PaulRoark.com <http://www.paulroark.com/>  

  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

  Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
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Re: [Digital BW] Glossy printing with Eboni -- who needs a 4000?

2004-01-19 by chipcarterdc

> The 7600/9600 is suddenly back on the radar also.  UT2 now has a 
significant
> advantage over IP5 and UC systems for B&W printers. 

Paul: you may recall that I posted a question last week about UT-2 
and wide-format printers.  By your answer here, I take it that you 
think it might be worthwhile to develop UT-2 cartridges and curves to 
use with these printers?  I guess, not knowing anything about the UT 
or UT-2 inksets, I don't understand why these printers were "off the 
radar" originally for UT-2, and what has changed so that they're now 
back "on the radar"?

I also assume that the advantage you refer to that UT-2 would have 
over the UC inks (with or without IP) is that your testing now 
reveals that switching black inks isn't necessary? Are there other 
advantages that I'm missing?

In short: do you envision that, in the near future, the UT-2 inkset 
and workflow will be available to use with the 7600/9600 and not 
require black ink switching?  If so, I'll be among the earliest of 
early adopters.  I've been waiting to get a wide-format to see 
exactly how Epson's whole R800/4000/current product line mess shakes 
out.  However, sicne I'm now thinking of dedicating a wide-format 
printer to B&W, I have less need to wait if there's a good B&W inkset 
approach for the 9600/7600 (well, Septone seems like a good approach, 
but I'd like to avoid the cost and complication of their RIP if 
possible)

RE: [Digital BW] Glossy printing with Eboni -- who needs a 4000?

2004-01-19 by Paul Roark

>> The 7600/9600 is suddenly back on the radar also.  
>>UT2 now has a significant advantage over IP5 and UC systems 
>>for B&W printers. 

>Paul: ... I take it that you think it might be worthwhile to 
>develop UT-2 cartridges and curves to use with these printers?

Yes, I think it is now in MIS's interest to pursue that market, and I'm now
interested in such printers.  (I'd opted for the 4000 due to the dual K, but
since the Eboni glossy printing is working so well with UT2, I now think
I'll end up replacing my 7500 with a 7600.)

>I guess, not knowing anything about the UT or UT-2 inksets, 
>I don't understand why these printers were "off the radar" 
>originally for UT-2, and what has changed so that they're now 
>back "on the radar"?

I need to be able to print both matte and glossy papers.  The cost and
hassle of switching black inks in large format printers like the 7600 is
just too much to bother with.  My 7500 with UT1 prints so well on matte, it
was just not worth upgrading it to the 7600 and also getting a 4000.  So, I
decided to go with the 4000 and stick with the old 7500.

Since I was not interested in a 7600 and since IP5 with the UltraChromes
does a good job with those printers, I didn't see much reason to bother with
them.

>I also assume that the advantage you refer to that UT-2 would have 
>over the UC inks (with or without IP) is that your testing now 
>reveals that switching black inks isn't necessary?

Yes, that is what changes the picture significantly.  (I might add that the
UltraChromes without IP5 (or similar RIP) are not serious B&W printers in my
view.)

> Are there other advantages that I'm missing?

UT2 is smoother, cheaper, and has a better tone/hue range than IP5 in B&W
mode.  (This might have changed if IP can now go full color and B&W in a
single image.)

>In short: do you envision that, in the near future, the UT-2 inkset 
>and workflow will be available to use with the 7600/9600 and not 
>require black ink switching? 

The first step is the 2200.  I hope to start testing that printer this week.
I had thought the 4000 would be next, but they are so backordered, I don't
know when I'll receive one.  So, I might have the time to write 7600 curves
in the interim.  However, I'm, frankly, not in a position to go out and buy
one.  So, it would be a question of finding a loaner or a printer in the
Santa Barbara area. 

>... since I'm now thinking of dedicating a wide-format 
>printer to B&W, I have less need to wait if there's a good B&W inkset 
>approach for the 9600/7600 ...

I think there is a high likelihood that the UT2 approach will work on the
7600/9600.  Once the 2200 is tests out as OK, then I'd say it's almost
certain that the larger versions will also work.  

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

RE: Glossy printing with Eboni -- who needs a 4000?

2004-01-19 by sandersm@aol.com

Paul, interesting news.   Questions:

-- When you say you are printing with Eboni onto Ilford Galerie Smooth Pearl, 
on which printer, running which driver?

-- Are you printing BO?   With a UC inkset, with Eboni in the K position?   
Or with a UT2 inkset? 

-- Do you think you would get similar results running QTR with an Eboni/UC 
inkset?

-- Would the workflow accommodate Epson Semimatte, and render similar 
results?   

-- What do you think is the best option/workflow/media for printing b+w 
photographs on the 7600 using Epson Semimatte?   On the 7600, using any paper?

I am still trying to figure out how best to configure my 7600 before putting 
it into service.   So much information!   So many options!   Life would be so 
much easier if the 7600 were capable of easy inkset changes.

Sanders McNew
www.mcnew.net


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Glossy printing with Eboni -- who needs a 4000?

2004-01-19 by chipcarterdc

I think I'm in the same boat as you: need to print on both glossy and matte 
paper, but don't want the expense of changing inks.

> 
> UT2 is smoother, cheaper, and has a better tone/hue range than IP5 in B&W
> mode.  (This might have changed if IP can now go full color and B&W in a
> single image.)

Here's a point related to the quote above: I'm thinking about which route is 
actually "cheaper" -- (a) one 9600 ($4000 refurbished) plus ImagePrint 
($2500 for the raster-only version for the 9600) or (b) 2 9600's, one running 
UC inks for color ($4000), plus one running B&W inks ($4000 plus cost of 
inks).  

Option (a) is $6500 in initial costs, BUT you have to add in the cost of 
changing inks when necessary.  The cost is about $100 in wasted ink per 
each switch, I believe.  Option (b) is about $8700 (I'm assuming a set of UT-2 
cartidges for the 9600 would be about $700 -- I have no idea what they'd 
really cost), BUT you can deduct the cost of changing from photo black to 
matte black if your (Paul's) approach pans out.  Because I'm thinking about 
this in a commercial environment, I image that clients will want B&W prints on 
both glossy and matte, and that the cost of switching inks therefroe becomes 
significant in a fairly short time.  Further reducing the long-term cost of option 
(b) would be to set up the 9600 running UT-2 inks with a bulk flow system.  I 
guess  option (c) would be to have 2 9600's, with one running the Septone 
system ($2500) instead of the UT-2 inks, bringing the cost of this option to 
$10,500 (2 printers at $4000 each plus $2500 for the Septone setup).

This whole picture changes when and if Epson introduces 8-ink wide-format 
printers.  Then it's a closer question whether the improvement in B&W quality 
using a grayscale inkset v. using UC inks w. IP justifies the extra initial 
investment in 2 printers.  I have not had the opportunity to directly test any 
grayscale inkset's B&W output versus UC inks w. IP (which is what I'm 
currently using on my 2200).  Any input from anyone in addition to Paul on 
this issue would be great.

I'm not sure there are points above requiring a response from Paul -- just my 
thoughts.

Re: Glossy printing with Eboni -- who needs a 4000?

2004-01-19 by Roy Harrington

Hi Paul,

I'm curious just what you've got here.  Is it that this one specific
paper Smooth Pearl is somehow compatible with Eboni but
others aren't?    Or are you just not using the Eboni ink by making
the 100% spot just 100% R and G and 0% B -- i.e. the dark warm
gray and dark cool gray inks are enough to give a great dMax.

Roy

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:

Show quoted textHide quoted text

> OK, this is a little half-baked, but the bottom line is that I've hit a dmax
> of 2.28 on Ilford Galerie Smooth Pearl - with Eboni.  There is not
> significant dusting or rub-off.
> 
>  
> 
> The secret is that the UT2 (and perhaps UT1) inks use a base that is the
> glossy binder.  It's not an acrylic coating on the particle.  So, I don't
> let Eboni sit there by itself - or barely at all.  So, to the extent there
> is Eboni there, it is held by the base that carried the other inks into that
> spot.  The best dmax so far is with the yellow position sepia toner pulled
> out entirely at the 100% spot.  
> 
>  
> 
> Whether I can write full curves for this is untested.
> 
>  
> 
> So, there is more to do here before declaring any kind of victory, but we
> may not need to mess with switching blacks any more.  Now that would be
> nice.
> 
>  
> 
> Paul
> 
> www.PaulRoark.com <http://www.paulroark.com/>  
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

RE: [Digital BW] RE: Glossy printing with Eboni -- who needs a 4000?

2004-01-19 by Paul Roark

Sanders,

>-- When you say you are printing with Eboni onto Ilford Galerie 
>Smooth Pearl, on which printer, running which driver?

I'm printing with a 1280 printer and standard Epson driver.  The
Photoshop/Picture Window curves are all that is needed with the UT2 inkset
to print on either glossy or matte with the Eboni black ink.  It does take
different curves for the glossy when Eboni matte black is used as opposed to
the Photo black ink.

>-- Are you printing BO? 

No, it's the RC-compatible UT2 midtone grays that allow this.


> With a UC inkset, with Eboni in the K position?   
>Or with a UT2 inkset? 

UT2 is the only inkset that can do this well, as far as I know.

>-- Do you think you would get similar results running QTR with an Eboni/UC 
>inkset?

STR with UT2 could do this.  UC ink has a toner that is too light to work, I
fear.

>-- Would the workflow accommodate Epson Semimatte, and render similar 
>results?  

Yes, although I'm not a fan of Semimatte.  I prefer Semigloss for its higher
dmax, better Wilhelm ratings, and better receiving surface for sprays.

I have temporarily run out of Semigloss, but the system works with Premium
Glossy, which uses the same profiles as Semigloss and Luster.  (Semimatte
uses different curves/profiles.)  I'm just now writing curves for the
Premium Glossy and getting a dmax of over 2.3.
 
>-- What do you think is the best option/workflow/media for printing b+w 
>photographs on the 7600 using Epson Semimatte?   

I don't think there is a "best" combination.  Different people and markets
need different things.  The "fine art" market is going to demand cotton
under glass.   

On the other hand, I'm currently getting a kick out of Semigloss (Ilford
Pearl for 30 year photos and Epson Premium Semigloss for photos that might
have long term value).  I think the dynamic range and visual impact of
un-glazed, sprayed Semigloss papers (thrown in traditional, non-matted wood
frames) looks great for display.

So, bottom line, I need matte and glossy capability.

I don't want any part of having to change black inks on a 7600 (which is why
I was in line for a 4000).

So, that rather means that UT2 is the only one left that can give me
everything I want on a 7600 -- regardless of price.

>... Life would be so much easier if the 7600 were capable of 
>easy inkset changes.

True.  I suspect Epson will release a 7xxx version of the 4000 head soon.  I
also suspect I'll be waiting with outstretched arms to catch a real bargain
on a 7600 when large numbers of the current owners upgrade.


Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Glossy printing with Eboni -- who needs a 4000?

2004-01-19 by Carl Schofield

Roy & Paul,

I tried the UT1 inks with Eboni K in my 1270 using a neutral curve in  
QTR and printed to Epson Photo Paper.  The Eboni rubbed off and showed  
a gloss differential only in the 100% patch.  However, by applying a  
curve adjustment layer and limiting output at 100% I was able to get  
rid of the rub-off and gloss differential.  The "optimal" 100% output  
limit in terms of dmax was at 92% and there was no rub-off or gloss  
differential.  Print looked great with no bronzing either.  Dmax  
numbers (see chart below) were not that great but the blacks still  
looked good.  I did no spraying with Print Shield for these tests.  I  
wonder if more C position gray ink were laid down under the Eboni if  
dmax would be higher.  Roy, could this be accomplished with a higher  
GRAY-OVERLAP?  I was using 10%.

Carl

Curves 100% Ouput	D
90	1.64
91	1.64
92	1.65
93	1.631
94	1.614
95	1.609
On Monday, January 19, 2004, at 02:42  PM, Roy Harrington wrote:

>
> Hi Paul,
>
> I'm curious just what you've got here.  Is it that this one specific
> paper Smooth Pearl is somehow compatible with Eboni but
> others aren't?    Or are you just not using the Eboni ink by making
> the 100% spot just 100% R and G and 0% B -- i.e. the dark warm
> gray and dark cool gray inks are enough to give a great dMax.
>
> Roy
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark"
> <paul.roark@v...> wrote:
>> OK, this is a little half-baked, but the bottom line is that I've hit  
>> a dmax
>> of 2.28 on Ilford Galerie Smooth Pearl - with Eboni.  There is not
>> significant dusting or rub-off.
>>
>>
>>
>> The secret is that the UT2 (and perhaps UT1) inks use a base that is  
>> the
>> glossy binder.  It's not an acrylic coating on the particle.  So, I  
>> don't
>> let Eboni sit there by itself - or barely at all.  So, to the extent  
>> there
>> is Eboni there, it is held by the base that carried the other inks  
>> into that
>> spot.  The best dmax so far is with the yellow position sepia toner  
>> pulled
>> out entirely at the 100% spot.
>>
>>
>>
>> Whether I can write full curves for this is untested.
>>
>>
>>
>> So, there is more to do here before declaring any kind of victory,  
>> but we
>> may not need to mess with switching blacks any more.  Now that would  
>> be
>> nice.
>>
>>
>>
>> Paul
>>
>> www.PaulRoark.com <http://www.paulroark.com/>
>>
>>
>>
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other  
> resources as they are often being updated.
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish  
> to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting  
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> DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE  
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RE: [Digital BW] Re: Glossy printing with Eboni -- who needs a 4000?

2004-01-19 by Paul Roark

Roy,

>I'm curious just what you've got here.  Is it that this one specific
>paper Smooth Pearl is somehow compatible with Eboni but
>others aren't? 

It has worked on all the RC papers I've tried so far.

>Or are you just not using the Eboni ink by making
>the 100% spot just 100% R and G and 0% B -- i.e. the dark warm
>gray and dark cool gray inks are enough to give a great dMax.

I can't tell since I use the Epson driver.  The way to test this would be to
put a cart of flushing fluid (or water) in the color cart positions and see
if any black is being printed.  I have not done this yet.

I have used different amounts of RGB and find that even when I think there
must be significant amounts of Eboni being put into the image, the binder
that is in the color position inks seems to hold the Eboni down.  Eboni will
not stay in suspension in the UT base, but on the paper that doesn't matter.
There may be enough overlap in the very dark areas that the UT base binder
is doing an effective job.

It's a little hard to imaging that I could get dmaxs of 2.3 with just the
cyan and magenta position gray inks.

This would almost certainly work with your system and UT2.  The advantages
are obvious and, frankly, rather overwhelming.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 
________________________

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> OK, this is a little half-baked, but the bottom line is that I've hit a
dmax
> of 2.28 on Ilford Galerie Smooth Pearl - with Eboni.  There is not
> significant dusting or rub-off.
> 
>  
> 
> The secret is that the UT2 (and perhaps UT1) inks use a base that is the
> glossy binder.  It's not an acrylic coating on the particle.  So, I don't
> let Eboni sit there by itself - or barely at all.  So, to the extent there
> is Eboni there, it is held by the base that carried the other inks into
that
> spot.  The best dmax so far is with the yellow position sepia toner pulled
> out entirely at the 100% spot.  
> 
>  
> 
> Whether I can write full curves for this is untested.
> 
>  
> 
> So, there is more to do here before declaring any kind of victory, but we
> may not need to mess with switching blacks any more.  Now that would be
> nice.
> 
>  
> 
> Paul
> 
> www.PaulRoark.com <http://www.paulroark.com/>  
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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RE: [Digital BW] Re: Glossy printing with Eboni -- who needs a 4000?

2004-01-19 by Paul Roark

Carl,

The problem with this Eboni-glossy printing approach and the UT1 is the
light toner.  In UT2 the coolness comes from an ink that is actually a hair
darker than the UT1 cyan.  That accounts for the dmax differences, I assume.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com
_____________________________________

Show quoted textHide quoted text

-----Original Message-----
From: Carl Schofield [mailto:scho@...] 
Sent: Monday, January 19, 2004 12:50 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Glossy printing with Eboni -- who needs a
4000?

Roy & Paul,

I tried the UT1 inks with Eboni K in my 1270 using a neutral curve in  
QTR and printed to Epson Photo Paper.  The Eboni rubbed off and showed  
a gloss differential only in the 100% patch.  However, by applying a  
curve adjustment layer and limiting output at 100% I was able to get  
rid of the rub-off and gloss differential.  The "optimal" 100% output  
limit in terms of dmax was at 92% and there was no rub-off or gloss  
differential.  Print looked great with no bronzing either.  Dmax  
numbers (see chart below) were not that great but the blacks still  
looked good.  I did no spraying with Print Shield for these tests.  I  
wonder if more C position gray ink were laid down under the Eboni if  
dmax would be higher.  Roy, could this be accomplished with a higher  
GRAY-OVERLAP?  I was using 10%.

Carl

Curves 100% Ouput	D
90	1.64
91	1.64
92	1.65
93	1.631
94	1.614
95	1.609
On Monday, January 19, 2004, at 02:42  PM, Roy Harrington wrote:

>
> Hi Paul,
>
> I'm curious just what you've got here.  Is it that this one specific
> paper Smooth Pearl is somehow compatible with Eboni but
> others aren't?    Or are you just not using the Eboni ink by making
> the 100% spot just 100% R and G and 0% B -- i.e. the dark warm
> gray and dark cool gray inks are enough to give a great dMax.
>
> Roy
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark"
> <paul.roark@v...> wrote:
>> OK, this is a little half-baked, but the bottom line is that I've hit  
>> a dmax
>> of 2.28 on Ilford Galerie Smooth Pearl - with Eboni.  There is not
>> significant dusting or rub-off.
>>
>>
>>
>> The secret is that the UT2 (and perhaps UT1) inks use a base that is  
>> the
>> glossy binder.  It's not an acrylic coating on the particle.  So, I  
>> don't
>> let Eboni sit there by itself - or barely at all.  So, to the extent  
>> there
>> is Eboni there, it is held by the base that carried the other inks  
>> into that
>> spot.  The best dmax so far is with the yellow position sepia toner  
>> pulled
>> out entirely at the 100% spot.
>>
>>
>>
>> Whether I can write full curves for this is untested.
>>
>>
>>
>> So, there is more to do here before declaring any kind of victory,  
>> but we
>> may not need to mess with switching blacks any more.  Now that would  
>> be
>> nice.
>>
>>
>>
>> Paul
>>
>> www.PaulRoark.com <http://www.paulroark.com/>
>>
>>
>>
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other  
> resources as they are often being updated.
>
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Re: Glossy printing with Eboni -- who needs a 4000?

2004-01-19 by Barrett Benton

Whoah...who needs a 4000, indeed (assuming you can get one) 
;-)

But, which printer *is* being used in all this? And how are things 
going with "project 3000"?

- Barrett

Re: Glossy printing with Eboni -- who needs a 4000?

2004-01-19 by André Vallejo

Good news. Is it supposed to be true for the new UT-FS that`s coming?


> Message: 3
>    Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 18:59:41 -0800
>    From: "Paul Roark" <paul.roark@...>
> Subject: Glossy printing with Eboni -- who needs a 4000?
>
> OK, this is a little half-baked, but the bottom line is that I've hit a
dmax
> of 2.28 on Ilford Galerie Smooth Pearl - with Eboni.  There is not
> significant dusting or rub-off.
>
>
>
> The secret is that the UT2 (and perhaps UT1) inks use a base that is the
> glossy binder.  It's not an acrylic coating on the particle.  So, I don't
> let Eboni sit there by itself - or barely at all.  So, to the extent there
> is Eboni there, it is held by the base that carried the other inks into
that
> spot.  The best dmax so far is with the yellow position sepia toner pulled
> out entirely at the 100% spot.

Re: [Digital BW] RE: Glossy printing with Eboni -- who needs a 4000?

2004-01-19 by sandersnyc

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:

> > With a UC inkset, with Eboni in the K position?   
> >Or with a UT2 inkset? 
> 
> UT2 is the only inkset that can do this well, as far as I know.

Alas.  I called MIS to see about ordering a UT2 inkset for the 7600 and the woman 
there said they don't support the 7600 or sell 7600 UT2 cartridges.  Any idea if/when 
that might change?

> I have temporarily run out of Semigloss, but the system works with Premium
> Glossy, which uses the same profiles as Semigloss and Luster.  (Semimatte
> uses different curves/profiles.)  

Could you elaborate on why/how Semimatte differs from Semigloss from the 
perspective of curves/profiiles?  I preferred the smoother surface of Semigloss, and 
rashly bought a roll.  

> >-- What do you think is the best option/workflow/media for printing b+w 
> >photographs on the 7600 using Epson Semimatte?   
> 
> I don't think there is a "best" combination.  Different people and markets
> need different things.  

I appreciate this, and my question was too terse.  If you were setting up a virgin 7600 
to print B+W fine art photographs for sale in galleries, and you weren't worried about 
printing color on the machine, what inks and papers and workflow would you choose?  

Thanks, as always, for your thoughts.

Sanders McNew
www.mcnew.net

Re: [Digital BW] RE: Glossy printing with Eboni -- who needs a 4000?

2004-01-19 by sandersnyc

> Could you elaborate on why/how Semimatte differs from Semigloss from the 
> perspective of curves/profiiles?  I preferred the smoother surface of Semigloss, and 
> rashly bought a roll. 

Duh.  I meant to say, "I preferred the smoother surface of Semimatte, and rashly 
bought a roll."

Sanders.

Re: [Digital BW] Glossy printing with Eboni -- who needs a 4000?

2004-01-20 by Bill Schwab

> I think there is a high likelihood that the UT2 approach will work 
on the
> 7600/9600.  Once the 2200 is tests out as OK, then I'd say it's 
almost
> certain that the larger versions will also work.  

Paul,

I'm very interested in getting a 7600 up and running B&W as well. Do 
you forsee any troubles with switching to the UT2 set from the UT1? 
Not sure if I should do it now, or when the inksets are developed.

Thanks,

Bill

www.billschwab.com

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Glossy printing with Eboni -- who needs a 4000?

2004-01-20 by Carl Schofield

Paul,

You are right about the toner limitation for glossy with the UT1 inks 
and I have some UT2 inks on order from MIS, but I just wanted to see 
how this worked with the UT1 inks since I still have them loaded in the 
1270.  I did get somewhat higher dmax with Epson Pro Glossy (1.76) and 
even better with Ilford Smooth Pearl (2.04), using the same 92% curve 
limit at 100%.  However, when I printed a QTR warm curve (no toner) on 
the Pro Glossy the dmax dropped to 1.59 and the print showed bronzing 
and gloss differential as well.

Carl

Show quoted textHide quoted text

On Monday, January 19, 2004, at 04:05  PM, Paul Roark wrote:

> Carl,
>
> The problem with this Eboni-glossy printing approach and the UT1 is the
> light toner.  In UT2 the coolness comes from an ink that is actually a 
> hair
> darker than the UT1 cyan.  That accounts for the dmax differences, I 
> assume.
>
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
> _____________________________________
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Carl Schofield [mailto:scho@...]
> Sent: Monday, January 19, 2004 12:50 PM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Glossy printing with Eboni -- who needs a
> 4000?
>
> Roy & Paul,
>
> I tried the UT1 inks with Eboni K in my 1270 using a neutral curve in
> QTR and printed to Epson Photo Paper.  The Eboni rubbed off and showed
> a gloss differential only in the 100% patch.  However, by applying a
> curve adjustment layer and limiting output at 100% I was able to get
> rid of the rub-off and gloss differential.  The "optimal" 100% output
> limit in terms of dmax was at 92% and there was no rub-off or gloss
> differential.  Print looked great with no bronzing either.  Dmax
> numbers (see chart below) were not that great but the blacks still
> looked good.  I did no spraying with Print Shield for these tests.  I
> wonder if more C position gray ink were laid down under the Eboni if
> dmax would be higher.  Roy, could this be accomplished with a higher
> GRAY-OVERLAP?  I was using 10%.
>
> Carl
>
> Curves 100% Ouput	D
> 90	1.64
> 91	1.64
> 92	1.65
> 93	1.631
> 94	1.614
> 95	1.609
> On Monday, January 19, 2004, at 02:42  PM, Roy Harrington wrote:
>
>>
>> Hi Paul,
>>
>> I'm curious just what you've got here.  Is it that this one specific
>> paper Smooth Pearl is somehow compatible with Eboni but
>> others aren't?    Or are you just not using the Eboni ink by making
>> the 100% spot just 100% R and G and 0% B -- i.e. the dark warm
>> gray and dark cool gray inks are enough to give a great dMax.
>>
>> Roy
>>
>> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark"
>> <paul.roark@v...> wrote:
>>> OK, this is a little half-baked, but the bottom line is that I've hit
>>> a dmax
>>> of 2.28 on Ilford Galerie Smooth Pearl - with Eboni.  There is not
>>> significant dusting or rub-off.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The secret is that the UT2 (and perhaps UT1) inks use a base that is
>>> the
>>> glossy binder.  It's not an acrylic coating on the particle.  So, I
>>> don't
>>> let Eboni sit there by itself - or barely at all.  So, to the extent
>>> there
>>> is Eboni there, it is held by the base that carried the other inks
>>> into that
>>> spot.  The best dmax so far is with the yellow position sepia toner
>>> pulled
>>> out entirely at the 100% spot.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Whether I can write full curves for this is untested.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> So, there is more to do here before declaring any kind of victory,
>>> but we
>>> may not need to mess with switching blacks any more.  Now that would
>>> be
>>> nice.
>>>

[Digital BW] Re: Glossy printing with Eboni -- who needs a 4000?

2004-01-20 by Roy Harrington

I've been trying some combinations on my 1270 with UT2 and Ilford
Heavy Weight SemiMatte paper.

My first try was with a EEM profile and like Carl I found about 90% to
be the max.  At that point there was very little Eboni so I decided to 
start from scratch and leave out the Eboni ink all together.   Looking
at the inks separately, both C and M are darker than the Eboni on IHWSM.
So I've got a carbon curve with just M and LM and a neutral curve using
L, LM, C, and LC.  I'm not totally decided how much ink is appropriate
-- it takes a long time to dry --  but I've measured dMax up to 2.30.
I think it might actually to be better down at 2.20 though.

I think it may be possible to do a 3 ink neutral using C if dmax is the
weak point or LC if dots are the weak point.   If this works you
could do glossy/matte and carbon/neutral on the 1160.

Roy


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Carl Schofield <scho@m...> 
wrote:
> Roy & Paul,
> 
> I tried the UT1 inks with Eboni K in my 1270 using a neutral curve in  
> QTR and printed to Epson Photo Paper.  The Eboni rubbed off and showed  
> a gloss differential only in the 100% patch.  However, by applying a  
> curve adjustment layer and limiting output at 100% I was able to get  
> rid of the rub-off and gloss differential.  The "optimal" 100% output  
> limit in terms of dmax was at 92% and there was no rub-off or gloss  
> differential.  Print looked great with no bronzing either.  Dmax  
> numbers (see chart below) were not that great but the blacks still  
> looked good.  I did no spraying with Print Shield for these tests.  I  
> wonder if more C position gray ink were laid down under the Eboni if  
> dmax would be higher.  Roy, could this be accomplished with a higher  
> GRAY-OVERLAP?  I was using 10%.
> 
> Carl
> 
> Curves 100% Ouput	D
> 90	1.64
> 91	1.64
> 92	1.65
> 93	1.631
> 94	1.614
> 95	1.609
> On Monday, January 19, 2004, at 02:42  PM, Roy Harrington wrote:
> 
> >
> > Hi Paul,
> >
> > I'm curious just what you've got here.  Is it that this one specific
> > paper Smooth Pearl is somehow compatible with Eboni but
> > others aren't?    Or are you just not using the Eboni ink by making
> > the 100% spot just 100% R and G and 0% B -- i.e. the dark warm
> > gray and dark cool gray inks are enough to give a great dMax.
> >
> > Roy
> >
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark"
> > <paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> >> OK, this is a little half-baked, but the bottom line is that I've hit  
> >> a dmax
> >> of 2.28 on Ilford Galerie Smooth Pearl - with Eboni.  There is not
> >> significant dusting or rub-off.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> The secret is that the UT2 (and perhaps UT1) inks use a base that is  
> >> the
> >> glossy binder.  It's not an acrylic coating on the particle.  So, I  
> >> don't
> >> let Eboni sit there by itself - or barely at all.  So, to the extent  
> >> there
> >> is Eboni there, it is held by the base that carried the other inks  
> >> into that
> >> spot.  The best dmax so far is with the yellow position sepia toner  
> >> pulled
> >> out entirely at the 100% spot.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Whether I can write full curves for this is untested.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> So, there is more to do here before declaring any kind of victory,  
> >> but we
> >> may not need to mess with switching blacks any more.  Now that would  
> >> be
> >> nice.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Paul
> >>
> >> www.PaulRoark.com <http://www.paulroark.com/>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other  
> > resources as they are often being updated.
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >
> > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish  
> > to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting  
> > this same page.
> >
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to  
> > keep them short.
> > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or  
> > flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from  
> > the membership without notice.
> > - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital  
> > B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be  
> > removed from the membership.
> > - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and  
> > guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group  
> > Owner and Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the  
> > Files section:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> >
> > BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE  
> > PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE 
"OWNER"  
> > AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE  
> > LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL,  
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[Digital BW] Re: Glossy printing with Eboni -- who needs a 4000?

2004-01-20 by Roy Harrington

Hi Carl,

I just sent my post about leaving out Eboni.  I'm thinking that once
you drop eboni from the mix you may actually be able to use the
toner.

Roy

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Carl Schofield <scho@m...> 
wrote:

Show quoted textHide quoted text

> Paul,
> 
> You are right about the toner limitation for glossy with the UT1 inks 
> and I have some UT2 inks on order from MIS, but I just wanted to see 
> how this worked with the UT1 inks since I still have them loaded in the 
> 1270.  I did get somewhat higher dmax with Epson Pro Glossy (1.76) and 
> even better with Ilford Smooth Pearl (2.04), using the same 92% curve 
> limit at 100%.  However, when I printed a QTR warm curve (no toner) on 
> the Pro Glossy the dmax dropped to 1.59 and the print showed bronzing 
> and gloss differential as well.
> 
> Carl
> On Monday, January 19, 2004, at 04:05  PM, Paul Roark wrote:
> 
> > Carl,
> >
> > The problem with this Eboni-glossy printing approach and the UT1 is the
> > light toner.  In UT2 the coolness comes from an ink that is actually a 
> > hair
> > darker than the UT1 cyan.  That accounts for the dmax differences, I 
> > assume.
> >
> > Paul
> > www.PaulRoark.com
> > _____________________________________
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Carl Schofield [mailto:scho@m...]
> > Sent: Monday, January 19, 2004 12:50 PM
> > To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Glossy printing with Eboni -- who needs a
> > 4000?
> >
> > Roy & Paul,
> >
> > I tried the UT1 inks with Eboni K in my 1270 using a neutral curve in
> > QTR and printed to Epson Photo Paper.  The Eboni rubbed off and showed
> > a gloss differential only in the 100% patch.  However, by applying a
> > curve adjustment layer and limiting output at 100% I was able to get
> > rid of the rub-off and gloss differential.  The "optimal" 100% output
> > limit in terms of dmax was at 92% and there was no rub-off or gloss
> > differential.  Print looked great with no bronzing either.  Dmax
> > numbers (see chart below) were not that great but the blacks still
> > looked good.  I did no spraying with Print Shield for these tests.  I
> > wonder if more C position gray ink were laid down under the Eboni if
> > dmax would be higher.  Roy, could this be accomplished with a higher
> > GRAY-OVERLAP?  I was using 10%.
> >
> > Carl
> >
> > Curves 100% Ouput	D
> > 90	1.64
> > 91	1.64
> > 92	1.65
> > 93	1.631
> > 94	1.614
> > 95	1.609
> > On Monday, January 19, 2004, at 02:42  PM, Roy Harrington wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> Hi Paul,
> >>
> >> I'm curious just what you've got here.  Is it that this one specific
> >> paper Smooth Pearl is somehow compatible with Eboni but
> >> others aren't?    Or are you just not using the Eboni ink by making
> >> the 100% spot just 100% R and G and 0% B -- i.e. the dark warm
> >> gray and dark cool gray inks are enough to give a great dMax.
> >>
> >> Roy
> >>
> >> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark"
> >> <paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> >>> OK, this is a little half-baked, but the bottom line is that I've hit
> >>> a dmax
> >>> of 2.28 on Ilford Galerie Smooth Pearl - with Eboni.  There is not
> >>> significant dusting or rub-off.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> The secret is that the UT2 (and perhaps UT1) inks use a base that is
> >>> the
> >>> glossy binder.  It's not an acrylic coating on the particle.  So, I
> >>> don't
> >>> let Eboni sit there by itself - or barely at all.  So, to the extent
> >>> there
> >>> is Eboni there, it is held by the base that carried the other inks
> >>> into that
> >>> spot.  The best dmax so far is with the yellow position sepia toner
> >>> pulled
> >>> out entirely at the 100% spot.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Whether I can write full curves for this is untested.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> So, there is more to do here before declaring any kind of victory,
> >>> but we
> >>> may not need to mess with switching blacks any more.  Now that would
> >>> be
> >>> nice.
> >>>

RE: [Digital BW] Glossy printing with Eboni -- who needs a 4000?

2004-01-20 by Paul Roark

Bill,

>...
>I'm very interested in getting a 7600 up and running B&W as well. Do 
>you foresee any troubles with switching to the UT2 set from the UT1?

No.  The inks are all from the same family of MIS 7600 pigments.  The only
problem will be temporary pollution of the tones from residual inks in the
dampers and tubes because I switched the toner positions,

 
>Not sure if I should do it now, or when the inksets are developed.

I'd wait a couple of weeks.

The main thing I don't know about is how the light black is going to affect
the curves and tones.  Frankly, I'd rather have a UC printer of the same
quality without that ink.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

RE: [Digital BW] RE: Glossy printing with Eboni -- who needs a 4000?

2004-01-20 by Paul Roark

Sanders,
 
>>... UT2 is the only inkset that can do this well, as far as I know.

>I called MIS to see about ordering a UT2 inkset for the 7600 and the woman 
>there said they don't support the 7600 or sell 7600 UT2 cartridges.  

Yet. 

(They do sell 7600 carts and bulk UT2.)

>Any idea if/when that might change?

I have to see if the inkset works on the 2200 first.  I'll start that later
this week.  If (when) it works on the 2200, going to the other UC printers
should be easy.

>>I have temporarily run out of Semigloss, but the system works with Premium
>>Glossy, which uses the same profiles as Semigloss and Luster.  (Semimatte
>> uses different curves/profiles.)  

>Could you elaborate on why/how Semimatte differs from Semigloss from the 
>perspective of curves/profiiles?  ...

I wrote curves for Premium Semigloss, and they worked virtually perfectly on
Premium Glossy and Luster.  Unfortunately, they did not work on Premium
Semimatte.  That paper also had a significantly lower dmax.  See also the
Wilhelm results -- again, Semimatte is weaker.

So, since Semimatte is not available in most desktop sizes, I have just
ignored it.  I like Semigloss and if need be will buy rolls outside the U.S.

 
>If you were setting up a virgin 7600 to print B+W fine art photographs for
>sale in galleries, and you weren't worried about 
>printing color on the machine, what inks and papers and workflow would you
>choose?  

I'd go with UT2 inks (assuming I get the 2200 running soon), Eboni black,
EEM for cheap display under glass, UltraSmooth (or PremierArt Hot Press --
same thing) for the most durable cotton paper, maybe PhotoRag for best
looking cotton, Premium Semigloss for best glossy, and Ilford Galerie Smooth
Pearl for short term display (the EEM of glossy papers).  I would just stick
with the Epson driver. 

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

RE: [Digital BW] Re: Glossy printing with Eboni -- who needs a 4000?

2004-01-20 by Paul Roark

>Is it supposed to be true for the new UT-FS that`s coming?


The UT1 and UT-FS cannot print as well on glossy paper without Photo K as
can the UT2.  However, with the right paper (Ilford Galerie Smooth and Epson
Premium line (except Semimatte)), a dmax of over 2.0 is possible just with
the UT cyan (dark gray).  So, with Eboni in the printers curves can be
written that make glossy prints.  I can't guarantee how good the curves and
images will be, however.  I can't imagine the 3000 will cut it with glossy,
but I'll try it later.  (I have UT-FSN in mine now.)

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com
_______________________

Show quoted textHide quoted text

-----Original Message-----
From: André Vallejo [mailto:avs@pobox.com] 
Sent: Monday, January 19, 2004 2:06 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Glossy printing with Eboni -- who needs a 4000?

Good news. Is it supposed to be true for the new UT-FS that`s coming?

> Message: 3
>    Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 18:59:41 -0800
>    From: "Paul Roark" <paul.roark@...>
> Subject: Glossy printing with Eboni -- who needs a 4000?
>
> OK, this is a little half-baked, but the bottom line is that I've hit a
dmax
> of 2.28 on Ilford Galerie Smooth Pearl - with Eboni.  There is not
> significant dusting or rub-off.
>
>
>
> The secret is that the UT2 (and perhaps UT1) inks use a base that is the
> glossy binder.  It's not an acrylic coating on the particle.  So, I don't
> let Eboni sit there by itself - or barely at all.  So, to the extent there
> is Eboni there, it is held by the base that carried the other inks into
that
> spot.  The best dmax so far is with the yellow position sepia toner pulled
> out entirely at the 100% spot.

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RE: [Digital BW] Re: Glossy printing with Eboni -- who needs a 4000?

2004-01-20 by Paul Roark

Barrett,

>Whoa...who needs a 4000, indeed 
>(assuming you can get one) ;-)

Well, that may be a bit of hyperbole.  The 4000 is still going to be a super
printer.  Photo k isn't dead, it's just amazing how well the 1280 can do
with UT2 and Eboni (or, mostly magenta and cyan).

>... how are things going with "project 3000"?

It's done.  I wrote UT curves for it, but frankly I think it is better with
the UT-FS line.  I have written new curves for these inks and the 3000.  MIS
will release the updated FS inks soon.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Glossy printing with Eboni -- who needs a 4000?

2004-01-20 by Carl Schofield

Roy,

That worked just fine.  I dropped Eboni out of the UT1 mix and made 
curves using just C, LC, and Y grays for the carbon-warm curve and 
added M and LM toners for a cool curve, on Epson Photo Paper.  Just 
kept the ink limits all at 100, partitioned the grays as usual, and 
linearized.  Below is a plot of the densities for a 50% blend of the 
warm and cool curves.  I made a neutral and warm print of a test image 
with these curves and they look great with no rub-off, bronzing, or 
gloss differential problems.  The prints have a beautiful, uniform, 
soft gloss and the 1.9+ dmax on plain old epson photo paper isn't too 
shabby.  So, "K-less" printing now for glossy papers?

Carl

Step	Density
0	 0.028	*
5	 0.075	**
10	 0.132	****
15	 0.188	*****
20	 0.247	*******
25	 0.293	********
30	 0.359	*********
35	 0.424	***********
40	 0.501	*************
45	 0.582	***************
50	 0.645	*****************
55	 0.742	*******************
60	 0.837	*********************
65	 0.918	***********************
70	 1.024	**************************
75	 1.133	*****************************
80	 1.265	********************************
85	 1.401	************************************
90	 1.533	***************************************
95	 1.703	*******************************************
100	 1.932	*************************************************

Show quoted textHide quoted text

On Monday, January 19, 2004, at 08:40  PM, Roy Harrington wrote:

>
> Hi Carl,
>
> I just sent my post about leaving out Eboni.  I'm thinking that once
> you drop eboni from the mix you may actually be able to use the
> toner.
>
> Roy
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Carl Schofield 
> <scho@m...>
> wrote:
>> Paul,
>>
>> You are right about the toner limitation for glossy with the UT1 inks
>> and I have some UT2 inks on order from MIS, but I just wanted to see
>> how this worked with the UT1 inks since I still have them loaded in 
>> the
>> 1270.  I did get somewhat higher dmax with Epson Pro Glossy (1.76) and
>> even better with Ilford Smooth Pearl (2.04), using the same 92% curve
>> limit at 100%.  However, when I printed a QTR warm curve (no toner) on
>> the Pro Glossy the dmax dropped to 1.59 and the print showed bronzing
>> and gloss differential as well.
>>
>> Carl
>> On Monday, January 19, 2004, at 04:05  PM, Paul Roark wrote:
>>
>>> Carl,
>>>
>>> The problem with this Eboni-glossy printing approach and the UT1 is 
>>> the
>>> light toner.  In UT2 the coolness comes from an ink that is actually 
>>> a
>>> hair
>>> darker than the UT1 cyan.  That accounts for the dmax differences, I
>>> assume.
>>>
>>> Paul
>>> www.PaulRoark.com
>>> _____________________________________
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Carl Schofield [mailto:scho@m...]
>>> Sent: Monday, January 19, 2004 12:50 PM
>>> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
>>> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Glossy printing with Eboni -- who 
>>> needs a
>>> 4000?
>>>
>>> Roy & Paul,
>>>
>>> I tried the UT1 inks with Eboni K in my 1270 using a neutral curve in
>>> QTR and printed to Epson Photo Paper.  The Eboni rubbed off and 
>>> showed
>>> a gloss differential only in the 100% patch.  However, by applying a
>>> curve adjustment layer and limiting output at 100% I was able to get
>>> rid of the rub-off and gloss differential.  The "optimal" 100% output
>>> limit in terms of dmax was at 92% and there was no rub-off or gloss
>>> differential.  Print looked great with no bronzing either.  Dmax
>>> numbers (see chart below) were not that great but the blacks still
>>> looked good.  I did no spraying with Print Shield for these tests.  I
>>> wonder if more C position gray ink were laid down under the Eboni if
>>> dmax would be higher.  Roy, could this be accomplished with a higher
>>> GRAY-OVERLAP?  I was using 10%.
>>>
>>> Carl
>>>
>>> Curves 100% Ouput	D
>>> 90	1.64
>>> 91	1.64
>>> 92	1.65
>>> 93	1.631
>>> 94	1.614
>>> 95	1.609
>>> On Monday, January 19, 2004, at 02:42  PM, Roy Harrington wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hi Paul,
>>>>
>>>> I'm curious just what you've got here.  Is it that this one specific
>>>> paper Smooth Pearl is somehow compatible with Eboni but
>>>> others aren't?    Or are you just not using the Eboni ink by making
>>>> the 100% spot just 100% R and G and 0% B -- i.e. the dark warm
>>>> gray and dark cool gray inks are enough to give a great dMax.
>>>>
>>>> Roy
>>>>
>>>> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark"
>>>> <paul.roark@v...> wrote:
>>>>> OK, this is a little half-baked, but the bottom line is that I've 
>>>>> hit
>>>>> a dmax
>>>>> of 2.28 on Ilford Galerie Smooth Pearl - with Eboni.  There is not
>>>>> significant dusting or rub-off.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The secret is that the UT2 (and perhaps UT1) inks use a base that 
>>>>> is
>>>>> the
>>>>> glossy binder.  It's not an acrylic coating on the particle.  So, I
>>>>> don't
>>>>> let Eboni sit there by itself - or barely at all.  So, to the 
>>>>> extent
>>>>> there
>>>>> is Eboni there, it is held by the base that carried the other inks
>>>>> into that
>>>>> spot.  The best dmax so far is with the yellow position sepia toner
>>>>> pulled
>>>>> out entirely at the 100% spot.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Whether I can write full curves for this is untested.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> So, there is more to do here before declaring any kind of victory,
>>>>> but we
>>>>> may not need to mess with switching blacks any more.  Now that 
>>>>> would
>>>>> be
>>>>> nice.
>>>>>

[Digital BW] Re: Glossy printing with Eboni -- who needs a 4000?

2004-01-20 by Barrett Benton

Paul,

This is great to know.  My current two-printer system is an Epson 
1160 running Lyson QuadBlack Neutral on EEM or HPR (doing 
nicely for going on two years), and an Epson 2200 for color. But 
the idea of eventually picking up a 3000 on the cheap stays in the 
back of my mind, and the work you've been doing makes the 
thought loom larger.  I tend not to hop around trying different 
formulas (as long as I find something that works well most of the 
time), as reliability and repeatability are paramount, whie funds 
are certainly limited.

Many thanks again for your efforts!

- Barrett

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul 
Roark" <paul.roark@v...> wrote:

Show quoted textHide quoted text

> Barrett,
> 
> >Whoa...who needs a 4000, indeed 
> >(assuming you can get one) ;-)
> 
> Well, that may be a bit of hyperbole.  The 4000 is still going to 
>be a super printer.  Photo k isn't dead, it's just amazing how 
>well the 1280 can do with UT2 and Eboni (or, mostly magenta 
>and cyan).
> 
> >... how are things going with "project 3000"?
> 
> It's done.  I wrote UT curves for it, but frankly I think it is
>better  with the UT-FS line.  I have written new curves for these 
>inks and the 3000.  MIS will release the updated FS inks soon.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com

[Digital BW] Re: Glossy printing with Eboni -- who needs a 4000?

2004-01-20 by Roy Harrington

Carl,

That looks a lot like I'm getting.  Here's my carbon(warm) and neutral:

Carbon:
Step	Gain	Density
0	 0.00 	0.076	**
5	-0.28	0.126	****
10	-0.35	0.181	*****
15	-0.02	0.243	*******
20	-0.58	0.296	********
25	-0.13	0.365	**********
30	 0.07	        0.435	***********
35	-0.05	0.503	*************
40	 0.41 	0.585	***************
45	-0.08	0.656	*****************
50	 0.06 	0.743	*******************
55	 0.13 	0.834	*********************
60	 0.02 	0.928	************************
65	 0.11 	1.034	**************************
70	 0.10 	1.148	*****************************
75	 0.37 	1.279	********************************
80	 0.51 	1.420	************************************
85	-0.26	1.551	***************************************
90	 0.44 	1.750	********************************************
95	 0.12 	1.939	*************************************************
100	 0.00 	2.180	*******************************************************

Neutral:
Step	Gain	Density
0	 0.00 	0.058	**
5	 2.02 	0.135	****
10	 3.48 	0.209	******
15	 4.11 	0.278	*******
20	 4.76 	0.350	*********
25	 4.41 	0.413	***********
30	 4.01 	0.478	************
35	 3.64 	0.548	**************
40	 3.95 	0.632	****************
45	 4.50 	0.726	*******************
50	 4.23 	0.812	*********************
55	 3.69 	0.899	***********************
60	 2.32 	0.974	*************************
65	 3.38 	1.111	****************************
70	 3.81 	1.246	********************************
75	 4.00 	1.389	***********************************
80	 3.69 	1.535	***************************************
85	 2.06 	1.650	******************************************
90	 3.29 	1.896	************************************************
95	 1.85 	2.060	****************************************************
100	 0.00 	2.252	*********************************************************


With the neutral there's a lot of ink hence the higher dmax.  With the carbon
I have a GRAY_OVERLAP=20 so there's 20% light gray with the dark gray.
The result looks quite nice, no bronzing, but even after an hour of drying there's
a little tackiness in the dark areas.  It's pretty delicate for a long time.

Roy


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Carl Schofield <scho@m...> 
wrote:

Show quoted textHide quoted text

> Roy,
> 
> That worked just fine.  I dropped Eboni out of the UT1 mix and made 
> curves using just C, LC, and Y grays for the carbon-warm curve and 
> added M and LM toners for a cool curve, on Epson Photo Paper.  Just 
> kept the ink limits all at 100, partitioned the grays as usual, and 
> linearized.  Below is a plot of the densities for a 50% blend of the 
> warm and cool curves.  I made a neutral and warm print of a test image 
> with these curves and they look great with no rub-off, bronzing, or 
> gloss differential problems.  The prints have a beautiful, uniform, 
> soft gloss and the 1.9+ dmax on plain old epson photo paper isn't too 
> shabby.  So, "K-less" printing now for glossy papers?
> 
> Carl
> 
> Step	Density
> 0	 0.028	*
> 5	 0.075	**
> 10	 0.132	****
> 15	 0.188	*****
> 20	 0.247	*******
> 25	 0.293	********
> 30	 0.359	*********
> 35	 0.424	***********
> 40	 0.501	*************
> 45	 0.582	***************
> 50	 0.645	*****************
> 55	 0.742	*******************
> 60	 0.837	*********************
> 65	 0.918	***********************
> 70	 1.024	**************************
> 75	 1.133	*****************************
> 80	 1.265	********************************
> 85	 1.401	************************************
> 90	 1.533	***************************************
> 95	 1.703	*******************************************
> 100	 1.932	*************************************************
> 
> On Monday, January 19, 2004, at 08:40  PM, Roy Harrington wrote:
> 
> >
> > Hi Carl,
> >
> > I just sent my post about leaving out Eboni.  I'm thinking that once
> > you drop eboni from the mix you may actually be able to use the
> > toner.
> >
> > Roy
> >
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Carl Schofield 
> > <scho@m...>
> > wrote:
> >> Paul,
> >>
> >> You are right about the toner limitation for glossy with the UT1 inks
> >> and I have some UT2 inks on order from MIS, but I just wanted to see
> >> how this worked with the UT1 inks since I still have them loaded in 
> >> the
> >> 1270.  I did get somewhat higher dmax with Epson Pro Glossy (1.76) and
> >> even better with Ilford Smooth Pearl (2.04), using the same 92% curve
> >> limit at 100%.  However, when I printed a QTR warm curve (no toner) on
> >> the Pro Glossy the dmax dropped to 1.59 and the print showed bronzing
> >> and gloss differential as well.
> >>
> >> Carl
> >> On Monday, January 19, 2004, at 04:05  PM, Paul Roark wrote:
> >>
> >>> Carl,
> >>>
> >>> The problem with this Eboni-glossy printing approach and the UT1 is 
> >>> the
> >>> light toner.  In UT2 the coolness comes from an ink that is actually 
> >>> a
> >>> hair
> >>> darker than the UT1 cyan.  That accounts for the dmax differences, I
> >>> assume.
> >>>
> >>> Paul
> >>> www.PaulRoark.com
> >>> _____________________________________
> >>>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: Carl Schofield [mailto:scho@m...]
> >>> Sent: Monday, January 19, 2004 12:50 PM
> >>> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> >>> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Glossy printing with Eboni -- who 
> >>> needs a
> >>> 4000?
> >>>
> >>> Roy & Paul,
> >>>
> >>> I tried the UT1 inks with Eboni K in my 1270 using a neutral curve in
> >>> QTR and printed to Epson Photo Paper.  The Eboni rubbed off and 
> >>> showed
> >>> a gloss differential only in the 100% patch.  However, by applying a
> >>> curve adjustment layer and limiting output at 100% I was able to get
> >>> rid of the rub-off and gloss differential.  The "optimal" 100% output
> >>> limit in terms of dmax was at 92% and there was no rub-off or gloss
> >>> differential.  Print looked great with no bronzing either.  Dmax
> >>> numbers (see chart below) were not that great but the blacks still
> >>> looked good.  I did no spraying with Print Shield for these tests.  I
> >>> wonder if more C position gray ink were laid down under the Eboni if
> >>> dmax would be higher.  Roy, could this be accomplished with a higher
> >>> GRAY-OVERLAP?  I was using 10%.
> >>>
> >>> Carl
> >>>
> >>> Curves 100% Ouput	D
> >>> 90	1.64
> >>> 91	1.64
> >>> 92	1.65
> >>> 93	1.631
> >>> 94	1.614
> >>> 95	1.609
> >>> On Monday, January 19, 2004, at 02:42  PM, Roy Harrington wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Hi Paul,
> >>>>
> >>>> I'm curious just what you've got here.  Is it that this one specific
> >>>> paper Smooth Pearl is somehow compatible with Eboni but
> >>>> others aren't?    Or are you just not using the Eboni ink by making
> >>>> the 100% spot just 100% R and G and 0% B -- i.e. the dark warm
> >>>> gray and dark cool gray inks are enough to give a great dMax.
> >>>>
> >>>> Roy
> >>>>
> >>>> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark"
> >>>> <paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> >>>>> OK, this is a little half-baked, but the bottom line is that I've 
> >>>>> hit
> >>>>> a dmax
> >>>>> of 2.28 on Ilford Galerie Smooth Pearl - with Eboni.  There is not
> >>>>> significant dusting or rub-off.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The secret is that the UT2 (and perhaps UT1) inks use a base that 
> >>>>> is
> >>>>> the
> >>>>> glossy binder.  It's not an acrylic coating on the particle.  So, I
> >>>>> don't
> >>>>> let Eboni sit there by itself - or barely at all.  So, to the 
> >>>>> extent
> >>>>> there
> >>>>> is Eboni there, it is held by the base that carried the other inks
> >>>>> into that
> >>>>> spot.  The best dmax so far is with the yellow position sepia toner
> >>>>> pulled
> >>>>> out entirely at the 100% spot.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Whether I can write full curves for this is untested.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> So, there is more to do here before declaring any kind of victory,
> >>>>> but we
> >>>>> may not need to mess with switching blacks any more.  Now that 
> >>>>> would
> >>>>> be
> >>>>> nice.
> >>>>>

RE: [Digital BW] Re: Glossy printing with Eboni -- who needs a 4000?

2004-01-20 by Paul Roark

Roy & Carl,

Can you tell whether adding any Eboni to the dark grey increases or
decreases the density?

I get a denser 100% with both of the UT2 dark grays than either one on full.
Since the Epson driver doesn't tell me what it's doing, I'm not sure if the
total ink limit is increased, some Eboni is being added, or some
characteristic of having the 2 inks is better than one.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Re: [Digital BW] RE: Glossy printing with Eboni -- who needs a 4000?

2004-01-20 by colingruk

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:

> 
> >-- Are you printing BO? 
> 
> No, it's the RC-compatible UT2 midtone grays that allow this.
> 

Paul,

Of the 'photographic' type papers I use IGSP because I like it and 
because I can buy it locally.  Many of my images have 100% black 
backgrounds.  Thus I suspect that these areas will, effectively be 
printed as black only even if the foregound uses mostly the colour 
position UT2s.  Is this right or does one or more of tyhe UT color 
positions lay down a layer before the Eboni gets to the paper and 
thus enable the Ebony to be assimilated?

Regards,

Colin

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Glossy printing with Eboni -- who needs a 4000?

2004-01-20 by Ernst Dinkla

With the Wasatch Softrip curves and UT1 I have seen similar
possibilities for gloss printing. I didn't go further though as I
have made a seventh inkline on my 9000 filled with Photo Black.
The bronzing was quite low. There is a boost of grey on top of
the black curve.

Another thought: are the media of the Eboni and the Photo range
so incompatible that the mix on the paper isn't as fluid as one
would expect ? Less bleeding as a result ? Otherwise I wonder
whether the load of ink needed with more Eboni replacement by the
second greys (total or partly) isn't reducing the shadow detail.
UT2 has a higher density grey which helps. On the other hand just
adding varnish/medium with another inkline to the Eboni Black may
be as good as using the second grey. That's the Epson R800
solution I guess. For glossy colour printing it would be possible
to replace the grey on the 7600 with varnish/medium, drive it it
with QTR and accept the higher metamerism.

There's a rumour that the next wide format Epson will be more
along the lines of the R800 than that of the 4000. Given what
Paul discovered it could be a good decision. But for B&W, BO or
Quad, I still see advantages in the 4000 ink setup. If both black
heads can be used simultaneously, otherwise it will be too
limited. If both are usable at the same time a good "quad" range
should be possible with the right black inks and a grey that fits
better. It will still be possible to print colour with reduced
metamerism and gloss + matte is there too. Using both "blacks"
with 360 nozzles in total for BO should be another nice feature.

A slightly different black/grey inkset and drivers like QTR are
needed of course.

Could it be that Epson postponed delivery of the 4000 to add the
same features ? ;-)

Ernst

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Glossy printing with Eboni -- who needs a 4000?

2004-01-20 by Ernst Dinkla

----- Original Message -----

Show quoted textHide quoted text

From: "Paul Roark" <paul.roark@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2004 8:16 AM
Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Re: Glossy printing with Eboni -- who
needs a 4000?

Roy & Carl,

Can you tell whether adding any Eboni to the dark grey increases
or
decreases the density?

I get a denser 100% with both of the UT2 dark grays than either
one on full.
Since the Epson driver doesn't tell me what it's doing, I'm not
sure if the
total ink limit is increased, some Eboni is being added, or some
characteristic of having the 2 inks is better than one.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Paul,

Could be the result of more bleeding and/or a better use of the
total of nozzles (more spots are covered by smaller droplets with
both inks at 50%). The last is better if it isn't also resulting
in more bleed = shadow detail loss.

The total ink limit in itself isn't the only factor, smaller
droplets that deliver the same quantity of ink as the total of
bigger droplets have more ink/paper boundary length and that will
usually increase bleeding/dotgain. The same happens with finer
screens in offset.

Ernst

Orden from MIS to Europe.

2004-01-20 by aitor Peña Inclán

Hello,
I'm going to try the UT2 for a 1290. Does anyone know if there is any other
taxes than the VAT? Any duty tax for inks and papers?
Best regards
Aitor

Re: Glossy printing with Eboni -- who needs a 4000?

2004-01-20 by scrber

Any chance of someone posting these particular Eboni curves?
I am unfortunately lost as to what is going on.  Love my UT2 but am 
dying to try my RC papers - obviously the standard curves assume PK 
and give the usual rub off and bronzing with PE.

Can anyone share these newer curves?

Thanks!
Steve


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Ernst Dinkla" 
<E.Dinkla@c...> wrote:

Show quoted textHide quoted text

> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Paul Roark" <paul.roark@v...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2004 8:16 AM
> Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Re: Glossy printing with Eboni -- who
> needs a 4000?
> 
> 
> Roy & Carl,
> 
> Can you tell whether adding any Eboni to the dark grey increases
> or
> decreases the density?
> 
> I get a denser 100% with both of the UT2 dark grays than either
> one on full.
> Since the Epson driver doesn't tell me what it's doing, I'm not
> sure if the
> total ink limit is increased, some Eboni is being added, or some
> characteristic of having the 2 inks is better than one.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
> 
> Paul,
> 
> Could be the result of more bleeding and/or a better use of the
> total of nozzles (more spots are covered by smaller droplets with
> both inks at 50%). The last is better if it isn't also resulting
> in more bleed = shadow detail loss.
> 
> The total ink limit in itself isn't the only factor, smaller
> droplets that deliver the same quantity of ink as the total of
> bigger droplets have more ink/paper boundary length and that will
> usually increase bleeding/dotgain. The same happens with finer
> screens in offset.
> 
> Ernst

Re: Orden from MIS to Europe.

2004-01-20 by Bernie Ess

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, aitor Peña 
Inclán <aitorpinclan@t...> wrote:
> Hello,
> I'm going to try the UT2 for a 1290. Does anyone know if there is 
any other
> taxes than the VAT? Any duty tax for inks and papers?

Sometimes I paid taxes, most of the time I didn't (to Germany)

regards, Bernie

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Glossy printing with Eboni -- who needs a 4000?

2004-01-20 by Carl Schofield

Paul,

I didn't experiment with adding Eboni back in the profiles because the  
results were so good without it.  However, the initial trials I made by  
reducing 100% output suggested that eboni did reduce dmax beyond  
90-92%, but I don't know how much Eboni was actually being used in  
those tests.  I did some more trials with my "K-less" UT1 curves on  
several other RC papers, using the neutral 50:50 blend of the cool:warm  
curves that were developed for Epson Photo Paper,  and got the  
following results:

Epson Photo Paper - dmax 1.932 no bronzing
Epson Premium Semi-gloss - dmax 2.337 slight bronzing
PermaJet Oyster 271 - dmax 2.194 moderate bronzing
Oriental Graphica FB - dmax 1.529 slight bronzing, but mottling, very  
weak blacks, scratches easily
Pictorico Dualside - dmax 2.347 moderate to severe bronzing, warm grays
Ilford Smooth Pearl - dmax 2.328 very, very slight bronzing  
(essentially none)

Despite the lower dmax, I liked the appearance of the Epson Photo Paper  
prints.  This was the only paper with zero bronzing and the soft gloss  
did not produce distracting surface reflections - probably the closest  
to an air-dried glossy silver fiber print .  The Ilford Smooth Pearl  
would be a close second choice for me, particularly where a higher dmax  
is needed.

Carl

Show quoted textHide quoted text

On Tuesday, January 20, 2004, at 02:16  AM, Paul Roark wrote:

> Roy & Carl,
>
> Can you tell whether adding any Eboni to the dark grey increases or
> decreases the density?
>
> I get a denser 100% with both of the UT2 dark grays than either one on  
> full.
> Since the Epson driver doesn't tell me what it's doing, I'm not sure  
> if the
> total ink limit is increased, some Eboni is being added, or some
> characteristic of having the 2 inks is better than one.
>
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>
>
>
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Re: [Digital BW] Re: Glossy printing with Eboni -- who needs a 4000?

2004-01-20 by Carl Schofield

Roy,

I haven't tried the Ilford semi-matte yet, but it seems to be very 
good.  Were you also setting limits at 100 for all of the UT2 inks?  I 
noticed that your mid-tone densities were higher than what I was 
getting with the UT1 gray inks and didn't know if that was because of 
the difference between the UT1 and UT2 ink densities or your higher 
gray-overlap percentage (I used 10%).

Carl

Show quoted textHide quoted text

On Tuesday, January 20, 2004, at 12:48  AM, Roy Harrington wrote:

> Carl,
>
> That looks a lot like I'm getting.  Here's my carbon(warm) and neutral:
>
> Carbon:
> Step	Gain	Density
> 0	 0.00 	0.076	**
> 5	-0.28	0.126	****
> 10	-0.35	0.181	*****
> 15	-0.02	0.243	*******
> 20	-0.58	0.296	********
> 25	-0.13	0.365	**********
> 30	 0.07	        0.435	***********
> 35	-0.05	0.503	*************
> 40	 0.41 	0.585	***************
> 45	-0.08	0.656	*****************
> 50	 0.06 	0.743	*******************
> 55	 0.13 	0.834	*********************
> 60	 0.02 	0.928	************************
> 65	 0.11 	1.034	**************************
> 70	 0.10 	1.148	*****************************
> 75	 0.37 	1.279	********************************
> 80	 0.51 	1.420	************************************
> 85	-0.26	1.551	***************************************
> 90	 0.44 	1.750	********************************************
> 95	 0.12 	1.939	*************************************************
> 100	 0.00 
> 	2.180	*******************************************************
>
> Neutral:
> Step	Gain	Density
> 0	 0.00 	0.058	**
> 5	 2.02 	0.135	****
> 10	 3.48 	0.209	******
> 15	 4.11 	0.278	*******
> 20	 4.76 	0.350	*********
> 25	 4.41 	0.413	***********
> 30	 4.01 	0.478	************
> 35	 3.64 	0.548	**************
> 40	 3.95 	0.632	****************
> 45	 4.50 	0.726	*******************
> 50	 4.23 	0.812	*********************
> 55	 3.69 	0.899	***********************
> 60	 2.32 	0.974	*************************
> 65	 3.38 	1.111	****************************
> 70	 3.81 	1.246	********************************
> 75	 4.00 	1.389	***********************************
> 80	 3.69 	1.535	***************************************
> 85	 2.06 	1.650	******************************************
> 90	 3.29 	1.896	************************************************
> 95	 1.85 	2.060	****************************************************
> 100	 0.00 
> 	2.252	*********************************************************
>
>
> With the neutral there's a lot of ink hence the higher dmax.  With the 
> carbon
> I have a GRAY_OVERLAP=20 so there's 20% light gray with the dark gray.
> The result looks quite nice, no bronzing, but even after an hour of 
> drying there's
> a little tackiness in the dark areas.  It's pretty delicate for a long 
> time.
>
> Roy
>
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Carl Schofield 
> <scho@m...>
> wrote:
>> Roy,
>>
>> That worked just fine.  I dropped Eboni out of the UT1 mix and made
>> curves using just C, LC, and Y grays for the carbon-warm curve and
>> added M and LM toners for a cool curve, on Epson Photo Paper.  Just
>> kept the ink limits all at 100, partitioned the grays as usual, and
>> linearized.  Below is a plot of the densities for a 50% blend of the
>> warm and cool curves.  I made a neutral and warm print of a test image
>> with these curves and they look great with no rub-off, bronzing, or
>> gloss differential problems.  The prints have a beautiful, uniform,
>> soft gloss and the 1.9+ dmax on plain old epson photo paper isn't too
>> shabby.  So, "K-less" printing now for glossy papers?
>>
>> Carl
>>
>> Step	Density
>> 0	 0.028	*
>> 5	 0.075	**
>> 10	 0.132	****
>> 15	 0.188	*****
>> 20	 0.247	*******
>> 25	 0.293	********
>> 30	 0.359	*********
>> 35	 0.424	***********
>> 40	 0.501	*************
>> 45	 0.582	***************
>> 50	 0.645	*****************
>> 55	 0.742	*******************
>> 60	 0.837	*********************
>> 65	 0.918	***********************
>> 70	 1.024	**************************
>> 75	 1.133	*****************************
>> 80	 1.265	********************************
>> 85	 1.401	************************************
>> 90	 1.533	***************************************
>> 95	 1.703	*******************************************
>> 100	 1.932	*************************************************
>>
>> On Monday, January 19, 2004, at 08:40  PM, Roy Harrington wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Hi Carl,
>>>
>>> I just sent my post about leaving out Eboni.  I'm thinking that once
>>> you drop eboni from the mix you may actually be able to use the
>>> toner.
>>>
>>> Roy
>>>
>>> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Carl Schofield
>>> <scho@m...>
>>> wrote:
>>>> Paul,
>>>>
>>>> You are right about the toner limitation for glossy with the UT1 
>>>> inks
>>>> and I have some UT2 inks on order from MIS, but I just wanted to see
>>>> how this worked with the UT1 inks since I still have them loaded in
>>>> the
>>>> 1270.  I did get somewhat higher dmax with Epson Pro Glossy (1.76) 
>>>> and
>>>> even better with Ilford Smooth Pearl (2.04), using the same 92% 
>>>> curve
>>>> limit at 100%.  However, when I printed a QTR warm curve (no toner) 
>>>> on
>>>> the Pro Glossy the dmax dropped to 1.59 and the print showed 
>>>> bronzing
>>>> and gloss differential as well.
>>>>
>>>> Carl
>>>> On Monday, January 19, 2004, at 04:05  PM, Paul Roark wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Carl,
>>>>>
>>>>> The problem with this Eboni-glossy printing approach and the UT1 is
>>>>> the
>>>>> light toner.  In UT2 the coolness comes from an ink that is 
>>>>> actually
>>>>> a
>>>>> hair
>>>>> darker than the UT1 cyan.  That accounts for the dmax differences, 
>>>>> I
>>>>> assume.
>>>>>
>>>>> Paul
>>>>> www.PaulRoark.com
>>>>> _____________________________________
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Carl Schofield [mailto:scho@m...]
>>>>> Sent: Monday, January 19, 2004 12:50 PM
>>>>> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Glossy printing with Eboni -- who
>>>>> needs a
>>>>> 4000?
>>>>>
>>>>> Roy & Paul,
>>>>>
>>>>> I tried the UT1 inks with Eboni K in my 1270 using a neutral curve 
>>>>> in
>>>>> QTR and printed to Epson Photo Paper.  The Eboni rubbed off and
>>>>> showed
>>>>> a gloss differential only in the 100% patch.  However, by applying 
>>>>> a
>>>>> curve adjustment layer and limiting output at 100% I was able to 
>>>>> get
>>>>> rid of the rub-off and gloss differential.  The "optimal" 100% 
>>>>> output
>>>>> limit in terms of dmax was at 92% and there was no rub-off or gloss
>>>>> differential.  Print looked great with no bronzing either.  Dmax
>>>>> numbers (see chart below) were not that great but the blacks still
>>>>> looked good.  I did no spraying with Print Shield for these tests. 
>>>>>  I
>>>>> wonder if more C position gray ink were laid down under the Eboni 
>>>>> if
>>>>> dmax would be higher.  Roy, could this be accomplished with a 
>>>>> higher
>>>>> GRAY-OVERLAP?  I was using 10%.
>>>>>
>>>>> Carl
>>>>>
>>>>> Curves 100% Ouput	D
>>>>> 90	1.64
>>>>> 91	1.64
>>>>> 92	1.65
>>>>> 93	1.631
>>>>> 94	1.614
>>>>> 95	1.609
>>>>> On Monday, January 19, 2004, at 02:42  PM, Roy Harrington wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Paul,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm curious just what you've got here.  Is it that this one 
>>>>>> specific
>>>>>> paper Smooth Pearl is somehow compatible with Eboni but
>>>>>> others aren't?    Or are you just not using the Eboni ink by 
>>>>>> making
>>>>>> the 100% spot just 100% R and G and 0% B -- i.e. the dark warm
>>>>>> gray and dark cool gray inks are enough to give a great dMax.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Roy
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark"
>>>>>> <paul.roark@v...> wrote:
>>>>>>> OK, this is a little half-baked, but the bottom line is that I've
>>>>>>> hit
>>>>>>> a dmax
>>>>>>> of 2.28 on Ilford Galerie Smooth Pearl - with Eboni.  There is 
>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>> significant dusting or rub-off.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The secret is that the UT2 (and perhaps UT1) inks use a base that
>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> glossy binder.  It's not an acrylic coating on the particle.  
>>>>>>> So, I
>>>>>>> don't
>>>>>>> let Eboni sit there by itself - or barely at all.  So, to the
>>>>>>> extent
>>>>>>> there
>>>>>>> is Eboni there, it is held by the base that carried the other 
>>>>>>> inks
>>>>>>> into that
>>>>>>> spot.  The best dmax so far is with the yellow position sepia 
>>>>>>> toner
>>>>>>> pulled
>>>>>>> out entirely at the 100% spot.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Whether I can write full curves for this is untested.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So, there is more to do here before declaring any kind of 
>>>>>>> victory,
>>>>>>> but we
>>>>>>> may not need to mess with switching blacks any more.  Now that
>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>> nice.

RE: [Digital BW] Re: Glossy printing with Eboni -- who needs a 4000?

2004-01-20 by Paul Roark

>Any chance of someone posting these particular Eboni curves? ...

I currently have UT2 RC-Eboni (or M & C only) curves for Ilford Smooth and
Epson Premium Semigloss, Gloss, & Luster papers.  I'll send them to MIS and
e-mail them to anyone who want to try glossy printing with UT2 with Eboni
ink installed.  (I can't get access to my webpage, so that zip does not have
these files.)  The curves for UT2 when Eboni is installed have "Eboni" in
the name.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

[Digital BW] Re: Glossy printing with Eboni -- who needs a 4000?

2004-01-20 by Roy Harrington

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> Roy & Carl,
> 
> Can you tell whether adding any Eboni to the dark grey increases or
> decreases the density?
> 
> I get a denser 100% with both of the UT2 dark grays than either one on full.
> Since the Epson driver doesn't tell me what it's doing, I'm not sure if the
> total ink limit is increased, some Eboni is being added, or some
> characteristic of having the 2 inks is better than one.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com

I didn't do a specific test, but when I used one of the normal curves
there was a distinct downturn right where the Eboni started in.

Roy

[Digital BW] Re: Glossy printing with Eboni -- who needs a 4000?

2004-01-20 by hitechfactoryworker

Paul;

I've been reading this thread with great interest.  Thank you for 
all your hard work and sharing it with us.  Pardon me for what is 
probably a newbie question:

Assuming you get the UT inks dialed in with the 2200, will it be 
practical to swap cartridge sets out between the Epson UC inkset and 
the MIS UT inkset on the same printer?  I'd like to avoid dedicating 
a printer to B&W for now, knowing I will sacrifice some ink when 
swapping ink sets.

Regards;
Steve

QTR2 problem - Horizontal lines with 2100

2004-01-20 by Daniel Staver

Hi,

has anybody experienced problems with horizontal lines through the
prints using QTR and the 2100 printer?

I've struggled with this problem all of last autumn, and I've pretty
much had to abandon QTR entirely because I can't manage to get rid of
the lines.

They look like this:
http://daniel.staver.no/img/qtr2problem2.jpg

I just printed a calibration page on Ilford Smooth Pearl and the lines
are visible in every ink. I've also done alignments, but that doesn't
help either.

I'm using the 1440x720hq2 setting.

I would think it's a clog, but prints from the Epson driver look
perfect, even BO prints, and nozzle checks are also good. I sent the
printer in for service before christmas and was given a refurb in place
of the old one. Still same problem.

I've gone through some old QTR test strips that I printed a long time
ago, and they don't have this problem.

I wonder what happened...

--
Daniel Staver
http://daniel.staver.no

[Digital BW] Re: Glossy printing with Eboni -- who needs a 4000?

2004-01-20 by Roy Harrington

Carl,

I was using 80% limit + 20 overlap on the carbon only curve and
50% C, 45% M + 20 overlap on the neutral curve.  The carbon curves
ought to be similar to yours for total ink, but the neutrals are pretty
different since the ink sets are different.

I went back this morning and looked at the steps.  They "look" very good
but I re-measured them and the densities are dramatically lower than I
measured yesterday.  My guess is that I was getting a wet-glossy reading
that showed very high -- especially in the darker areas.  Are either of you
doing anything special to dry prints?  Hair dryer?

Unfortunately, the linearization values I measured yesterday are also off
so the smoothness is not quite as good.

The mid-tone densities are a bit higher than we're used to partially
because dMax is higher.  The linearization puts the 50% step right at
half way between 0 and 100 so all the steps are equal.  The density numbers
don't show this because they are logs, but if you look at the Lab values
50Lab = (100Lab + 0Lab) /2. 

Roy

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Carl Schofield <scho@m...> 
wrote:

Show quoted textHide quoted text

> Roy,
> 
> I haven't tried the Ilford semi-matte yet, but it seems to be very 
> good.  Were you also setting limits at 100 for all of the UT2 inks?  I 
> noticed that your mid-tone densities were higher than what I was 
> getting with the UT1 gray inks and didn't know if that was because of 
> the difference between the UT1 and UT2 ink densities or your higher 
> gray-overlap percentage (I used 10%).
> 
> Carl
> 
> On Tuesday, January 20, 2004, at 12:48  AM, Roy Harrington wrote:
> 
> > Carl,
> >
> > That looks a lot like I'm getting.  Here's my carbon(warm) and neutral:
> >
> > Carbon:
> > Step	Gain	Density
> > 0	 0.00 	0.076	**
> > 5	-0.28	0.126	****
> > 10	-0.35	0.181	*****
> > 15	-0.02	0.243	*******
> > 20	-0.58	0.296	********
> > 25	-0.13	0.365	**********
> > 30	 0.07	        0.435	***********
> > 35	-0.05	0.503	*************
> > 40	 0.41 	0.585	***************
> > 45	-0.08	0.656	*****************
> > 50	 0.06 	0.743	*******************
> > 55	 0.13 	0.834	*********************
> > 60	 0.02 	0.928	************************
> > 65	 0.11 	1.034	**************************
> > 70	 0.10 	1.148	*****************************
> > 75	 0.37 	1.279	********************************
> > 80	 0.51 	1.420	************************************
> > 85	-0.26	1.551	***************************************
> > 90	 0.44 	1.750	********************************************
> > 95	 0.12 	1.939	*************************************************
> > 100	 0.00 
> > 	2.180	*******************************************************
> >
> > Neutral:
> > Step	Gain	Density
> > 0	 0.00 	0.058	**
> > 5	 2.02 	0.135	****
> > 10	 3.48 	0.209	******
> > 15	 4.11 	0.278	*******
> > 20	 4.76 	0.350	*********
> > 25	 4.41 	0.413	***********
> > 30	 4.01 	0.478	************
> > 35	 3.64 	0.548	**************
> > 40	 3.95 	0.632	****************
> > 45	 4.50 	0.726	*******************
> > 50	 4.23 	0.812	*********************
> > 55	 3.69 	0.899	***********************
> > 60	 2.32 	0.974	*************************
> > 65	 3.38 	1.111	****************************
> > 70	 3.81 	1.246	********************************
> > 75	 4.00 	1.389	***********************************
> > 80	 3.69 	1.535	***************************************
> > 85	 2.06 	1.650	******************************************
> > 90	 3.29 	1.896	************************************************
> > 95	 1.85 	2.060	****************************************************
> > 100	 0.00 
> > 	2.252	*********************************************************
> >
> >
> > With the neutral there's a lot of ink hence the higher dmax.  With the 
> > carbon
> > I have a GRAY_OVERLAP=20 so there's 20% light gray with the dark gray.
> > The result looks quite nice, no bronzing, but even after an hour of 
> > drying there's
> > a little tackiness in the dark areas.  It's pretty delicate for a long 
> > time.
> >
> > Roy
> >
> >
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Carl Schofield 
> > <scho@m...>
> > wrote:
> >> Roy,
> >>
> >> That worked just fine.  I dropped Eboni out of the UT1 mix and made
> >> curves using just C, LC, and Y grays for the carbon-warm curve and
> >> added M and LM toners for a cool curve, on Epson Photo Paper.  Just
> >> kept the ink limits all at 100, partitioned the grays as usual, and
> >> linearized.  Below is a plot of the densities for a 50% blend of the
> >> warm and cool curves.  I made a neutral and warm print of a test image
> >> with these curves and they look great with no rub-off, bronzing, or
> >> gloss differential problems.  The prints have a beautiful, uniform,
> >> soft gloss and the 1.9+ dmax on plain old epson photo paper isn't too
> >> shabby.  So, "K-less" printing now for glossy papers?
> >>
> >> Carl
> >>
> >> Step	Density
> >> 0	 0.028	*
> >> 5	 0.075	**
> >> 10	 0.132	****
> >> 15	 0.188	*****
> >> 20	 0.247	*******
> >> 25	 0.293	********
> >> 30	 0.359	*********
> >> 35	 0.424	***********
> >> 40	 0.501	*************
> >> 45	 0.582	***************
> >> 50	 0.645	*****************
> >> 55	 0.742	*******************
> >> 60	 0.837	*********************
> >> 65	 0.918	***********************
> >> 70	 1.024	**************************
> >> 75	 1.133	*****************************
> >> 80	 1.265	********************************
> >> 85	 1.401	************************************
> >> 90	 1.533	***************************************
> >> 95	 1.703	*******************************************
> >> 100	 1.932	*************************************************
> >>
> >> On Monday, January 19, 2004, at 08:40  PM, Roy Harrington wrote:
> >>
> >>>
> >>> Hi Carl,
> >>>
> >>> I just sent my post about leaving out Eboni.  I'm thinking that once
> >>> you drop eboni from the mix you may actually be able to use the
> >>> toner.
> >>>
> >>> Roy
> >>>
> >>> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Carl Schofield
> >>> <scho@m...>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>> Paul,
> >>>>
> >>>> You are right about the toner limitation for glossy with the UT1 
> >>>> inks
> >>>> and I have some UT2 inks on order from MIS, but I just wanted to see
> >>>> how this worked with the UT1 inks since I still have them loaded in
> >>>> the
> >>>> 1270.  I did get somewhat higher dmax with Epson Pro Glossy (1.76) 
> >>>> and
> >>>> even better with Ilford Smooth Pearl (2.04), using the same 92% 
> >>>> curve
> >>>> limit at 100%.  However, when I printed a QTR warm curve (no toner) 
> >>>> on
> >>>> the Pro Glossy the dmax dropped to 1.59 and the print showed 
> >>>> bronzing
> >>>> and gloss differential as well.
> >>>>
> >>>> Carl
> >>>> On Monday, January 19, 2004, at 04:05  PM, Paul Roark wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> Carl,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The problem with this Eboni-glossy printing approach and the UT1 is
> >>>>> the
> >>>>> light toner.  In UT2 the coolness comes from an ink that is 
> >>>>> actually
> >>>>> a
> >>>>> hair
> >>>>> darker than the UT1 cyan.  That accounts for the dmax differences, 
> >>>>> I
> >>>>> assume.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Paul
> >>>>> www.PaulRoark.com
> >>>>> _____________________________________
> >>>>>
> >>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>> From: Carl Schofield [mailto:scho@m...]
> >>>>> Sent: Monday, January 19, 2004 12:50 PM
> >>>>> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> >>>>> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Glossy printing with Eboni -- who
> >>>>> needs a
> >>>>> 4000?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Roy & Paul,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I tried the UT1 inks with Eboni K in my 1270 using a neutral curve 
> >>>>> in
> >>>>> QTR and printed to Epson Photo Paper.  The Eboni rubbed off and
> >>>>> showed
> >>>>> a gloss differential only in the 100% patch.  However, by applying 
> >>>>> a
> >>>>> curve adjustment layer and limiting output at 100% I was able to 
> >>>>> get
> >>>>> rid of the rub-off and gloss differential.  The "optimal" 100% 
> >>>>> output
> >>>>> limit in terms of dmax was at 92% and there was no rub-off or gloss
> >>>>> differential.  Print looked great with no bronzing either.  Dmax
> >>>>> numbers (see chart below) were not that great but the blacks still
> >>>>> looked good.  I did no spraying with Print Shield for these tests. 
> >>>>>  I
> >>>>> wonder if more C position gray ink were laid down under the Eboni 
> >>>>> if
> >>>>> dmax would be higher.  Roy, could this be accomplished with a 
> >>>>> higher
> >>>>> GRAY-OVERLAP?  I was using 10%.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Carl
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Curves 100% Ouput	D
> >>>>> 90	1.64
> >>>>> 91	1.64
> >>>>> 92	1.65
> >>>>> 93	1.631
> >>>>> 94	1.614
> >>>>> 95	1.609
> >>>>> On Monday, January 19, 2004, at 02:42  PM, Roy Harrington wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Hi Paul,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I'm curious just what you've got here.  Is it that this one 
> >>>>>> specific
> >>>>>> paper Smooth Pearl is somehow compatible with Eboni but
> >>>>>> others aren't?    Or are you just not using the Eboni ink by 
> >>>>>> making
> >>>>>> the 100% spot just 100% R and G and 0% B -- i.e. the dark warm
> >>>>>> gray and dark cool gray inks are enough to give a great dMax.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Roy
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark"
> >>>>>> <paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> >>>>>>> OK, this is a little half-baked, but the bottom line is that I've
> >>>>>>> hit
> >>>>>>> a dmax
> >>>>>>> of 2.28 on Ilford Galerie Smooth Pearl - with Eboni.  There is 
> >>>>>>> not
> >>>>>>> significant dusting or rub-off.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> The secret is that the UT2 (and perhaps UT1) inks use a base that
> >>>>>>> is
> >>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>> glossy binder.  It's not an acrylic coating on the particle.  
> >>>>>>> So, I
> >>>>>>> don't
> >>>>>>> let Eboni sit there by itself - or barely at all.  So, to the
> >>>>>>> extent
> >>>>>>> there
> >>>>>>> is Eboni there, it is held by the base that carried the other 
> >>>>>>> inks
> >>>>>>> into that
> >>>>>>> spot.  The best dmax so far is with the yellow position sepia 
> >>>>>>> toner
> >>>>>>> pulled
> >>>>>>> out entirely at the 100% spot.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Whether I can write full curves for this is untested.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> So, there is more to do here before declaring any kind of 
> >>>>>>> victory,
> >>>>>>> but we
> >>>>>>> may not need to mess with switching blacks any more.  Now that
> >>>>>>> would
> >>>>>>> be
> >>>>>>> nice.

To Don Bryant

2004-01-20 by Daniel Staver

Sorry for posting this on list, but I've tried to email you my curve
script, and I keep getting the emails in return with an error message
"dsbryant@......User unknown (in reply to RCPT TO command".
Do you have another email address I can try? 

--
Daniel Staver
http://daniel.staver.no

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Glossy printing with Eboni -- who needs a 4000?

2004-01-20 by Carl Schofield

Roy,

I re-measured the Epson Photo Paper (EPP) strips that I made late 
yesterday and they were almost identical - no significant changes.  I 
blasted them with a hair dryer for about a minute or two before 
measuring yesterday.  I did notice that the EPP seems to take the high 
ink load better than ISP.

Carl

Show quoted textHide quoted text

On Tuesday, January 20, 2004, at 01:37  PM, Roy Harrington wrote:

>
> Carl,
>
> I was using 80% limit + 20 overlap on the carbon only curve and
> 50% C, 45% M + 20 overlap on the neutral curve.  The carbon curves
> ought to be similar to yours for total ink, but the neutrals are pretty
> different since the ink sets are different.
>
> I went back this morning and looked at the steps.  They "look" very 
> good
> but I re-measured them and the densities are dramatically lower than I
> measured yesterday.  My guess is that I was getting a wet-glossy 
> reading
> that showed very high -- especially in the darker areas.  Are either 
> of you
> doing anything special to dry prints?  Hair dryer?
>
> Unfortunately, the linearization values I measured yesterday are also 
> off
> so the smoothness is not quite as good.
>
> The mid-tone densities are a bit higher than we're used to partially
> because dMax is higher.  The linearization puts the 50% step right at
> half way between 0 and 100 so all the steps are equal.  The density 
> numbers
> don't show this because they are logs, but if you look at the Lab 
> values
> 50Lab = (100Lab + 0Lab) /2.
>
> Roy
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Carl Schofield 
> <scho@m...>
> wrote:

Re: QTR2 problem - Horizontal lines with 2100

2004-01-20 by Roy Harrington

Daniel,

I don't have any great ideas.  If it happens on different printers and
on different inks, it seems hard to blame it on hardware.  The drivers
all put the ink down in their own way -- i.e. the microweave is a driver
software feature.   I guess its possible that gimp-print's method is not
as tolerant of some difference, but this isn't a common issue and you
say it used to be ok.

Have you used other papers, like matte?  Do the patterns show up then?
Have you cleaned underneath the heads, using a paper towel and
windex or some mild cleaner?  

Roy

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Daniel Staver" 
<daniel@p...> wrote:

Show quoted textHide quoted text

> Hi,
> 
> has anybody experienced problems with horizontal lines through the
> prints using QTR and the 2100 printer?
> 
> I've struggled with this problem all of last autumn, and I've pretty
> much had to abandon QTR entirely because I can't manage to get rid of
> the lines.
> 
> They look like this:
> http://daniel.staver.no/img/qtr2problem2.jpg
> 
> I just printed a calibration page on Ilford Smooth Pearl and the lines
> are visible in every ink. I've also done alignments, but that doesn't
> help either.
> 
> I'm using the 1440x720hq2 setting.
> 
> I would think it's a clog, but prints from the Epson driver look
> perfect, even BO prints, and nozzle checks are also good. I sent the
> printer in for service before christmas and was given a refurb in place
> of the old one. Still same problem.
> 
> I've gone through some old QTR test strips that I printed a long time
> ago, and they don't have this problem.
> 
> I wonder what happened...
> 
> --
> Daniel Staver
> http://daniel.staver.no

[Digital BW] Re: Glossy printing with Eboni -- who needs a 4000?

2004-01-20 by scrber

Would love a set, thanks

I sent you mail offlist

Kind regards
Steve


>Any chance of someone posting these particular Eboni curves? ...

I currently have UT2 RC-Eboni (or M & C only) curves for Ilford 
Smooth and
Epson Premium Semigloss, Gloss, & Luster papers. I'll send them to 
MIS and
e-mail them to anyone who want to try glossy printing with UT2 with 
Eboni
ink installed. (I can't get access to my webpage, so that zip does 
not have
these files.) The curves for UT2 when Eboni is installed 
have "Eboni" in
the name.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com

RE: [Digital BW] Re: Glossy printing with Eboni -- who needs a 4000?

2004-01-21 by Paul Roark

Steve,

> Assuming you get the UT inks dialed in with the 2200, will it be 
>practical to swap cartridge sets out between the Epson UC inkset and 
>the MIS UT inkset on the same printer? ...

Yes, the inksets are compatible.  In fact, you can use the same black and
light black inks in either system.  (I'm not 100% sure I'm going to use the
light black as such, but I probably will try.)  I swap inksets rather
regularly.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

UT2 on Glossy -- very weird

2004-01-21 by Roy Harrington

Something very strange is happening to my prints using UT2 on 
Ilford Heavy Weight SemiMatte paper.  The high end densities are just
melting away very rapidly.

I printed a step wedge this morning about 11 o'clock,  I used a
hair drier on it for several minutes, and then waited about hour.
I measured the exact same wedge five times during the day -- see the times.
Also here's a graph of the ink usages -- carbon-only  M and LM(m).

Roy

--------------
  0   0%  |                                                  
 13   5%  | m                                                
 26  10%  |   m                                              
 38  15%  |     m                                            
 51  20%  |       m                                          
 64  25%  |          m                                       
 77  30%  |             m                                    
 89  35%  |                m                                 
102  40%  |                   m                              
115  45%  |                       m                          
128  50%  |M                          m                      
140  55%  | M                           m                    
153  60%  |  M                             m                 
166  65%  |   M                              m               
179  70%  |     M                              m             
191  75%  |        M                          m              
204  80%  |           M                      m               
217  85%  |               M               m                  
230  90%  |                     M    m                       
242  95%  |                    m       M                     
255 100%  |        m                               M         


CREATED "1/20/2004"  # Time: 12:13
XYZ_Y   Lab     Step    Gain    Density
82.00   92.57      0     0.00   0.086   ***
72.59   88.25      5    -0.01   0.139   ****
63.88   83.90     10     0.01   0.195   *****
55.59   79.38     15     0.23   0.255   *******
48.59   75.19     20     0.07   0.313   ********
42.53   71.24     25    -0.37   0.371   **********
34.46   65.33     30     1.46   0.463   ************
28.68   60.50     35     2.04   0.542   **************
24.22   56.31     40     1.88   0.616   ****************
21.04   53.00     45     0.70   0.677   *****************
17.44   48.81     50     0.54   0.758   *******************
14.52   44.97     55    -0.03   0.838   *********************
11.79   40.87     60    -0.29   0.928   ************************
 9.39   36.73     65    -0.51   1.027   **************************
 7.36   32.60     70    -0.74   1.133   *****************************
 5.89   29.12     75    -1.72   1.230   *******************************
 4.28   24.59     80    -1.49   1.369   ***********************************
 3.05   20.24     85    -1.47   1.516   **************************************
 1.99   15.44     90    -0.93   1.701   *******************************************
 1.36   11.72     95    -1.63   1.866   ***********************************************
 0.66    5.98    100    -0.00   2.180   
*******************************************************


CREATED "1/20/2004"  # Time: 12:18
XYZ_Y   Lab     Step    Gain    Density
81.64   92.42      0     0.00   0.088   ***
72.15   88.04      5     0.09   0.142   ****
63.64   83.78     10     0.05   0.196   *****
55.34   79.24     15     0.32   0.257   *******
48.35   75.05     20     0.20   0.316   ********
42.38   71.13     25    -0.25   0.373   **********
34.28   65.18     30     1.67   0.465   ************
28.58   60.41     35     2.22   0.544   **************
24.13   56.21     40     2.10   0.617   ****************
20.98   52.93     45     0.91   0.678   *****************
17.38   48.73     50     0.80   0.760   *******************
14.53   44.98     55     0.16   0.838   *********************
11.73   40.79     60     0.03   0.931   ************************
 9.37   36.69     65    -0.21   1.028   **************************
 7.28   32.43     70    -0.25   1.138   *****************************
 5.90   29.17     75    -1.46   1.229   *******************************
 4.31   24.66     80    -1.22   1.366   ***********************************
 3.14   20.59     85    -1.49   1.503   **************************************
 2.02   15.60     90    -0.68   1.695   *******************************************
 1.39   11.86     95    -1.34   1.857   ***********************************************
 0.71    6.41    100     0.00   2.149   
******************************************************

CREATED "1/20/2004"  # Time: 14:04
XYZ_Y   Lab     Step    Gain    Density
81.60   92.40      0     0.00   0.088   ***
72.22   88.08      5     0.32   0.141   ****
63.73   83.82     10     0.56   0.196   *****
55.28   79.20     15     1.25   0.257   *******
48.54   75.17     20     1.21   0.314   ********
42.28   71.06     25     1.26   0.374   **********
34.33   65.23     30     3.44   0.464   ************
28.49   60.33     35     4.47   0.545   **************
24.06   56.15     40     4.62   0.619   ****************
20.95   52.90     45     3.62   0.679   *****************
17.33   48.67     50     3.82   0.761   ********************
14.77   45.31     55     2.96   0.831   *********************
12.00   41.21     60     3.00   0.921   ************************
 9.60   37.12     65     3.04   1.018   **************************
 7.41   32.73     70     3.44   1.130   *****************************
 6.23   29.98     75     1.82   1.206   *******************************
 4.66   25.75     80     2.03   1.332   **********************************
 3.47   21.84     85     1.84   1.460   *************************************
 2.46   17.74     90     1.89   1.609   *****************************************
 2.02   15.61     95    -0.49   1.695   *******************************************
 1.28   11.15    100     0.00   1.893   ************************************************

CREATED "1/20/2004"  # Time: 17:48
XYZ_Y   Lab     Step    Gain    Density
81.78   92.48      0     0.00   0.087   ***
72.18   88.06      5     0.71   0.142   ****
63.80   83.86     10     1.13   0.195   *****
55.44   79.29     15     2.03   0.256   *******
48.57   75.19     20     2.33   0.314   ********
42.39   71.14     25     2.56   0.373   **********
34.17   65.09     30     5.37   0.466   ************
28.52   60.36     35     6.48   0.545   **************
24.14   56.23     40     6.82   0.617   ****************
20.99   52.94     45     6.07   0.678   *****************
17.43   48.80     50     6.41   0.759   *******************
15.03   45.67     55     5.45   0.823   *********************
12.25   41.60     60     5.71   0.912   ***********************
 9.90   37.67     65     5.79   1.004   **************************
 7.68   33.31     70     6.42   1.115   ****************************
 6.67   31.04     75     4.35   1.176   ******************************
 5.16   27.18     80     4.33   1.287   *********************************
 4.08   23.93     85     3.53   1.389   ***********************************
 3.17   20.72     90     2.68   1.499   **************************************
 2.78   19.13     95    -0.27   1.556   ***************************************
 1.92   15.05    100     0.00   1.717   *******************************************

CREATED "1/20/2004"  # Time: 21:34
XYZ_Y   Lab     Step    Gain    Density
81.59   92.39      0     0.00   0.088   ***
72.30   88.11      5     0.67   0.141   ****
63.79   83.86     10     1.31   0.195   *****
55.25   79.18     15     2.51   0.258   *******
48.72   75.28     20     2.68   0.312   ********
42.31   71.09     25     3.23   0.374   **********
34.19   65.11     30     6.16   0.466   ************
28.47   60.31     35     7.52   0.546   **************
24.08   56.16     40     8.02   0.618   ****************
20.99   52.94     45     7.29   0.678   *****************
17.40   48.76     50     7.83   0.759   *******************
15.05   45.70     55     6.89   0.822   *********************
12.40   41.84     60     7.01   0.907   ***********************
10.01   37.85     65     7.30   1.000   *************************
 7.90   33.78     70     7.69   1.102   ****************************
 6.93   31.66     75     5.50   1.159   *****************************
 5.43   27.92     80     5.46   1.265   ********************************
 4.26   24.51     85     4.98   1.371   ***********************************
 3.62   22.39     90     2.79   1.441   *************************************
 3.18   20.74     95    -0.02   1.498   **************************************
 2.29   16.95    100     0.00   1.640   ******************************************

RE: [Digital BW] UT2 on Glossy -- very weird

2004-01-21 by Paul Roark

Roy,

>Something very strange is happening to my prints using UT2 on 
>Ilford Heavy Weight SemiMatte paper.  The high end densities are just
>melting away very rapidly.

I'm not familiar with this Ilford paper, but my experience is that the high
dmaxs of most RC papers decrease significantly over the first day or so.
I'd guess a decrease of 0.15 for some before stabilizing is not unusual.
The PremierArt type sprays may to reduce the loss a bit.  I have not made a
detailed study of this.  

Epson Glossy Photo Paper does not seem to exhibit this loss of dmax.   When
the loss for others and the lack thereof for GPP are factored in, the cheap
old Glossy Photo Paper begins to look like even more of a bargain.

I wish it didn't get wavy in high density areas and was archival.

In that respect, I've been curious about an Epson paper called "Glossy Paper
Heavyweight."  See
http://www.epson.com/cgi-bin/Store/ProductMediaSpec.jsp?BV_UseBVCookie=yes&i
nfoType=Overview&oid=-8813&category=Paper+%26+Media  (Cut and paste the
wrapped portion.)

This paper, that is only available in rolls, is said to have "good"
archivability.  This is the same rating as the Premium RC line.  So, maybe
this is another acid free (buffered paper core) RC paper.

Note that it is also said to be "non-yellowing."   Is that a hint that a lot
of these papers do yellow?

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Re: [Digital BW] UT2 on Glossy -- very weird

2004-01-21 by Carl Schofield

Roy,

I haven't seen such drastic changes in dmax with the papers I tested.  
Here are some comparisons of dmax readings (neutral blend of warm:cool 
curves) for 3 papers at 1 hour after printing and 24 hours:

                                          1 hr - 24 hrs
Epson Photo Paper: 1.932 - 1.932
Epson Premium Semi-gloss:  2.337 - 2.310
Ilford Smooth Pearl:  2.301 - 2.260

Carl

Show quoted textHide quoted text

On Wednesday, January 21, 2004, at 01:12  AM, Roy Harrington wrote:

>
> Something very strange is happening to my prints using UT2 on
> Ilford Heavy Weight SemiMatte paper.  The high end densities are just
> melting away very rapidly.
>
> I printed a step wedge this morning about 11 o'clock,  I used a
> hair drier on it for several minutes, and then waited about hour.
> I measured the exact same wedge five times during the day -- see the 
> times.
> Also here's a graph of the ink usages -- carbon-only  M and LM(m).
>
> Roy
>
> --------------
>   0   0%  |
>  13   5%  | m
>  26  10%  |   m
>  38  15%  |     m
>  51  20%  |       m
>  64  25%  |          m
>  77  30%  |             m
>  89  35%  |                m
> 102  40%  |                   m
> 115  45%  |                       m
> 128  50%  |M                          m
> 140  55%  | M                           m
> 153  60%  |  M                             m
> 166  65%  |   M                              m
> 179  70%  |     M                              m
> 191  75%  |        M                          m
> 204  80%  |           M                      m
> 217  85%  |               M               m
> 230  90%  |                     M    m
> 242  95%  |                    m       M
> 255 100%  |        m                               M
>
>
> CREATED "1/20/2004"  # Time: 12:13
> XYZ_Y   Lab     Step    Gain    Density
> 82.00   92.57      0     0.00   0.086   ***
> 72.59   88.25      5    -0.01   0.139   ****
> 63.88   83.90     10     0.01   0.195   *****
> 55.59   79.38     15     0.23   0.255   *******
> 48.59   75.19     20     0.07   0.313   ********
> 42.53   71.24     25    -0.37   0.371   **********
> 34.46   65.33     30     1.46   0.463   ************
> 28.68   60.50     35     2.04   0.542   **************
> 24.22   56.31     40     1.88   0.616   ****************
> 21.04   53.00     45     0.70   0.677   *****************
> 17.44   48.81     50     0.54   0.758   *******************
> 14.52   44.97     55    -0.03   0.838   *********************
> 11.79   40.87     60    -0.29   0.928   ************************
>  9.39   36.73     65    -0.51   1.027   **************************
>  7.36   32.60     70    -0.74   1.133   *****************************
>  5.89   29.12     75    -1.72   1.230   *******************************
>  4.28   24.59     80    -1.49   1.369   
> ***********************************
>  3.05   20.24     85    -1.47   1.516   
> **************************************
>  1.99   15.44     90    -0.93   1.701   
> *******************************************
>  1.36   11.72     95    -1.63   1.866   
> ***********************************************
>  0.66    5.98    100    -0.00   2.180
> *******************************************************
>
>
> CREATED "1/20/2004"  # Time: 12:18
> XYZ_Y   Lab     Step    Gain    Density
> 81.64   92.42      0     0.00   0.088   ***
> 72.15   88.04      5     0.09   0.142   ****
> 63.64   83.78     10     0.05   0.196   *****
> 55.34   79.24     15     0.32   0.257   *******
> 48.35   75.05     20     0.20   0.316   ********
> 42.38   71.13     25    -0.25   0.373   **********
> 34.28   65.18     30     1.67   0.465   ************
> 28.58   60.41     35     2.22   0.544   **************
> 24.13   56.21     40     2.10   0.617   ****************
> 20.98   52.93     45     0.91   0.678   *****************
> 17.38   48.73     50     0.80   0.760   *******************
> 14.53   44.98     55     0.16   0.838   *********************
> 11.73   40.79     60     0.03   0.931   ************************
>  9.37   36.69     65    -0.21   1.028   **************************
>  7.28   32.43     70    -0.25   1.138   *****************************
>  5.90   29.17     75    -1.46   1.229   *******************************
>  4.31   24.66     80    -1.22   1.366   
> ***********************************
>  3.14   20.59     85    -1.49   1.503   
> **************************************
>  2.02   15.60     90    -0.68   1.695   
> *******************************************
>  1.39   11.86     95    -1.34   1.857   
> ***********************************************
>  0.71    6.41    100     0.00   2.149
> ******************************************************
>
> CREATED "1/20/2004"  # Time: 14:04
> XYZ_Y   Lab     Step    Gain    Density
> 81.60   92.40      0     0.00   0.088   ***
> 72.22   88.08      5     0.32   0.141   ****
> 63.73   83.82     10     0.56   0.196   *****
> 55.28   79.20     15     1.25   0.257   *******
> 48.54   75.17     20     1.21   0.314   ********
> 42.28   71.06     25     1.26   0.374   **********
> 34.33   65.23     30     3.44   0.464   ************
> 28.49   60.33     35     4.47   0.545   **************
> 24.06   56.15     40     4.62   0.619   ****************
> 20.95   52.90     45     3.62   0.679   *****************
> 17.33   48.67     50     3.82   0.761   ********************
> 14.77   45.31     55     2.96   0.831   *********************
> 12.00   41.21     60     3.00   0.921   ************************
>  9.60   37.12     65     3.04   1.018   **************************
>  7.41   32.73     70     3.44   1.130   *****************************
>  6.23   29.98     75     1.82   1.206   *******************************
>  4.66   25.75     80     2.03   1.332   
> **********************************
>  3.47   21.84     85     1.84   1.460   
> *************************************
>  2.46   17.74     90     1.89   1.609   
> *****************************************
>  2.02   15.61     95    -0.49   1.695   
> *******************************************
>  1.28   11.15    100     0.00   1.893   
> ************************************************
>
> CREATED "1/20/2004"  # Time: 17:48
> XYZ_Y   Lab     Step    Gain    Density
> 81.78   92.48      0     0.00   0.087   ***
> 72.18   88.06      5     0.71   0.142   ****
> 63.80   83.86     10     1.13   0.195   *****
> 55.44   79.29     15     2.03   0.256   *******
> 48.57   75.19     20     2.33   0.314   ********
> 42.39   71.14     25     2.56   0.373   **********
> 34.17   65.09     30     5.37   0.466   ************
> 28.52   60.36     35     6.48   0.545   **************
> 24.14   56.23     40     6.82   0.617   ****************
> 20.99   52.94     45     6.07   0.678   *****************
> 17.43   48.80     50     6.41   0.759   *******************
> 15.03   45.67     55     5.45   0.823   *********************
> 12.25   41.60     60     5.71   0.912   ***********************
>  9.90   37.67     65     5.79   1.004   **************************
>  7.68   33.31     70     6.42   1.115   ****************************
>  6.67   31.04     75     4.35   1.176   ******************************
>  5.16   27.18     80     4.33   1.287   
> *********************************
>  4.08   23.93     85     3.53   1.389   
> ***********************************
>  3.17   20.72     90     2.68   1.499   
> **************************************
>  2.78   19.13     95    -0.27   1.556   
> ***************************************
>  1.92   15.05    100     0.00   1.717   
> *******************************************
>
> CREATED "1/20/2004"  # Time: 21:34
> XYZ_Y   Lab     Step    Gain    Density
> 81.59   92.39      0     0.00   0.088   ***
> 72.30   88.11      5     0.67   0.141   ****
> 63.79   83.86     10     1.31   0.195   *****
> 55.25   79.18     15     2.51   0.258   *******
> 48.72   75.28     20     2.68   0.312   ********
> 42.31   71.09     25     3.23   0.374   **********
> 34.19   65.11     30     6.16   0.466   ************
> 28.47   60.31     35     7.52   0.546   **************
> 24.08   56.16     40     8.02   0.618   ****************
> 20.99   52.94     45     7.29   0.678   *****************
> 17.40   48.76     50     7.83   0.759   *******************
> 15.05   45.70     55     6.89   0.822   *********************
> 12.40   41.84     60     7.01   0.907   ***********************
> 10.01   37.85     65     7.30   1.000   *************************
>  7.90   33.78     70     7.69   1.102   ****************************
>  6.93   31.66     75     5.50   1.159   *****************************
>  5.43   27.92     80     5.46   1.265   
> ********************************
>  4.26   24.51     85     4.98   1.371   
> ***********************************
>  3.62   22.39     90     2.79   1.441   
> *************************************
>  3.18   20.74     95    -0.02   1.498   
> **************************************
>  2.29   16.95    100     0.00   1.640   
> ******************************************

Re: [Digital BW] UT2 on Glossy -- very weird

2004-01-21 by Barrett Benton

Ths is what maddens me: I've been using Epson Photo Paper 
(the perforated 4x6" stuff) for b/w photo postcards with Lyson 
QuadBlack Neutral. The prints were, and are, stunning, with 
virtually zero bronzing, and minimal diddling around to get this 
result. But (all together now), It's Not Archival.

Cliche Moment: we can send Rover to Mars (three times, in living 
color!), but we can't get traction finding an archival (or, barring 
that, near-archival) paper that's a visual match for a 
near-bottom-line Epson paper?  (Of course, we're still talking 
black-and-white here...it's like wanting to go out for High Tea 
when everyone else wants to drag you to Starbucks)

- Barrett

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul 
Roark" <paul.roark@v...> wrote:

> Epson Glossy Photo Paper does not seem to exhibit this loss 
> of dmax.   When the loss for others and the lack thereof for 
> GPP are factored in, the cheap old Glossy Photo Paper begins 
> to look like even more of a bargain.
> 
> I wish it didn't get wavy in high density areas and was archival.
> 
> In that respect, I've been curious about an Epson paper called 
> "Glossy Paper Heavyweight."  See
> 
http://www.epson.com/cgi-bin/Store/ProductMediaSpec.jsp?BV_
UseBVCookie=yes&i
> nfoType=Overview&oid=-8813&category=Paper+%26+Media  
(Cut and paste the

Show quoted textHide quoted text

> wrapped portion.)
> 
> This paper, that is only available in rolls, is said to have "good"
> archivability.  This is the same rating as the Premium RC line.  
> So, maybe this is another acid free (buffered paper core) RC 
>paper.
> 
> Note that it is also said to be "non-yellowing."   Is that a hint that 
> a lot of these papers do yellow?
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com

Re: [Digital BW] Glossy printing with Eboni -- who needs a 4000?

2004-01-24 by Steve Kale

Paul

When you say something is 14 units warm what measurement scale are you using?  
How do you measure warm vs cold vs neutral?  What is the measured definition of 
neutral?

Thanks

Steve

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:

Show quoted textHide quoted text

> More good news -- writing curves for Eboni-glossy printing was easy for
> Ilford Pearl.  There is a cross-over in the sepia print, but it is so far
> into the black that I can't see it.  Specifically, the 90% patch is 14 units
> warm, the 95% is 4 units warm, and the 100% (at 2.29) is 9 units cool.
> 
> Paul

RE: [Digital BW] Glossy printing with Eboni -- who needs a 4000?

2004-01-24 by Paul Roark

>When you say something is 14 units warm what measurement scale 
>are you using?  

I use the difference between the cyan and yellow spectrophotometer readings
as a simplified measure of relative warmth or coolness.  If, for example, Y
is 0.60 and C is 0.55, I'd call the print warm by 5 units.  This would be a
typical medium warm, midtone reading.  

The neutral I aim for is a 50% reading of C = 0.61, M = 0.62, Y = 0,61.
Since C = Y, it would be "neutral."  The magenta being one unit (one
one-hundredth [0.01] actually) above C & Y is what gives the "selenium"
look.

Since I the variable-tone inksets, in effect, pull the print along a
one-dimensional axis, the one unit relative measure (difference between cyan
and yellow) acts as a good, simplified way to compare tones or hues.

I hope this helps clarify my short hand.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 

For UT2 information and settings see:
http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/ 
____________________________________________

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> More good news -- writing curves for Eboni-glossy printing was easy for
> Ilford Pearl.  There is a cross-over in the sepia print, but it is so far
> into the black that I can't see it.  Specifically, the 90% patch is 14
units
> warm, the 95% is 4 units warm, and the 100% (at 2.29) is 9 units cool.
> 
> Paul

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Re: [Digital BW] Glossy printing with Eboni -- who needs a 4000?

2004-01-24 by Steve Kale

Thanks Paul.  

Can Eye One and, say, Measure Tool be used to measure this information by using the 
QTR-21-Gray.txt step wedge file?  I guess that is another question for Roy or Carl.

Cheers

Steve

Show quoted textHide quoted text

> I use the difference between the cyan and yellow spectrophotometer readings
> as a simplified measure of relative warmth or coolness.  If, for example, Y
> is 0.60 and C is 0.55, I'd call the print warm by 5 units.  This would be a
> typical medium warm, midtone reading.

Re: Glossy printing with Eboni -- who needs a 4000?

2004-01-25 by Roy Harrington

Hi Steve,

It's certainly possible to measure a wedge printed out with any method.
I'm also curious how to compare Paul's measurements to those I get.
The trouble is he has c,m,y density values, and the eye-one gives
Lab units.  It's similar tone info but I'm not sure how to convert
one to the other.

Roy

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Kale" 
<stevekale@b...> wrote:
> Thanks Paul.  
> 
> Can Eye One and, say, Measure Tool be used to measure this information by using 
the

Show quoted textHide quoted text

> QTR-21-Gray.txt step wedge file?  I guess that is another question for Roy or Carl.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Steve
> 
> 
> 
> > I use the difference between the cyan and yellow spectrophotometer readings
> > as a simplified measure of relative warmth or coolness.  If, for example, Y
> > is 0.60 and C is 0.55, I'd call the print warm by 5 units.  This would be a
> > typical medium warm, midtone reading.

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Glossy printing with Eboni -- who needs a 4000?

2004-01-25 by Carl Schofield

Roy & Steve,

Here is a color space converter calculator that will give you RGB or 
CMY from the LAB data (or XYZ), but not the same CMY density that Paul 
measures directly with the xrite.  However, Bruce Lindbloom does have a 
spreadsheet that will give CMY densities from the spectral data output 
of the eye-one.

http://www.easyrgb.com/calculator.php

http://www.brucelindbloom.com/

Carl

Show quoted textHide quoted text

On Saturday, January 24, 2004, at 10:05  PM, Roy Harrington wrote:

>
> Hi Steve,
>
> It's certainly possible to measure a wedge printed out with any method.
> I'm also curious how to compare Paul's measurements to those I get.
> The trouble is he has c,m,y density values, and the eye-one gives
> Lab units.  It's similar tone info but I'm not sure how to convert
> one to the other.
>
> Roy
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Kale"
> <stevekale@b...> wrote:
>> Thanks Paul.
>>
>> Can Eye One and, say, Measure Tool be used to measure this 
>> information by using
> the
>> QTR-21-Gray.txt step wedge file?  I guess that is another question 
>> for Roy or Carl.
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>> Steve
>>
>>
>>
>>> I use the difference between the cyan and yellow spectrophotometer 
>>> readings
>>> as a simplified measure of relative warmth or coolness.  If, for 
>>> example, Y
>>> is 0.60 and C is 0.55, I'd call the print warm by 5 units.  This 
>>> would be a
>>> typical medium warm, midtone reading.

Re: [Digital BW] Glossy printing with Eboni -- who needs a 4000?

2004-01-25 by Steve Kale

A couple more basic questions and sorry if this is fundamental ³colour
theory².  What about the K in your CMYK readings? I still struggle to think
in RGB, let alone CMYK.  R=G=B=x gives me a dead neutral shade of grey,
correct?  What would be warm/cool in RGB terms?

Roy and Carl:  I was wondering if it made sense to incorporate some of the
math posted by Carl into, say,  Run-Calc-Density so that you can get a sense
of measured rather than eyeballed warmth/coolness/neutrality of a curve or
curve combination.  Perhaps the calculations are too difficult  it is
certainly way beyond my understanding for now.

Getting there slowly...

Steve

Show quoted textHide quoted text

From: "Paul Roark" <paul.roark@...>
Reply-To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2004 12:36:36 -0800
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Glossy printing with Eboni -- who needs a 4000?

>When you say something is 14 units warm what measurement scale
>are you using?  

I use the difference between the cyan and yellow spectrophotometer readings
as a simplified measure of relative warmth or coolness.  If, for example, Y
is 0.60 and C is 0.55, I'd call the print warm by 5 units.  This would be a
typical medium warm, midtone reading.

The neutral I aim for is a 50% reading of C = 0.61, M = 0.62, Y = 0,61.
Since C = Y, it would be "neutral."  The magenta being one unit (one
one-hundredth [0.01] actually) above C & Y is what gives the "selenium"
look.

Since I the variable-tone inksets, in effect, pull the print along a
one-dimensional axis, the one unit relative measure (difference between cyan
and yellow) acts as a good, simplified way to compare tones or hues.

I hope this helps clarify my short hand.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Glossy printing with Eboni -- who needs a 4000?

2004-01-25 by Steve Kale

Paul

I think I can answer my own first question  K has no colour¹ and so is not
relevant (and, yes, R=G=B= a shade of grey).

But what I just found interesting was to look at the 21 step wedge file in
PS with mode set to RGB (Adobe RGB 1998) and observing in the Info Palette
the relative RGB values and CMYK values.  For each step, R=G=B but in each
case C>Y (and M=Y or only 1% more).....at the 100% patch C=75, M=68, Y=67,
K=90.

???

Steve

Show quoted textHide quoted text

From: Steve Kale <stevekale@...>
Reply-To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2004 13:52:00 +0000
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Glossy printing with Eboni -- who needs a 4000?

A couple more basic questions and sorry if this is fundamental ³colour
theory².  What about the K in your CMYK readings? 

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

RE: [Digital BW] Glossy printing with Eboni -- who needs a 4000?

2004-01-25 by Paul Roark

Steve,

>... R=G=B= a shade of grey.

>But what I just found interesting was to look at the 21 step wedge file in
>PS with mode set to RGB (Adobe RGB 1998) and observing in the Info Palette
>the relative RGB values and CMYK values.  For each step, R=G=B but in each
>case C>Y (and M=Y or only 1% more).....at the 100% patch C=75, M=68, Y=67,
>K=90.

I am not a color expert.  But, as I understand the Epson driver, it runs
straight from the RGB Photoshop information.  We would love to be able to
use CMYK curves, for example, but Epson converts that to RGB before sending
it to the printer.  Each printer model & driver have their own algorithms to
convert the RGB information to CMYK -- and LC, LM, LK and with the R800
other colors.  So, I think the Photoshop CMYK numbers that are shown in the
Information palette are irrelevant for our purposes.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 

For UT2 information and settings see:
http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/

Re: [Digital BW] Glossy printing with Eboni -- who needs a 4000?

2004-01-25 by Roy Harrington

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale <stevekale@=
b...> 
wrote:
> A couple more basic questions and sorry if this is fundamental ³colour
> theory².  What about the K in your CMYK readings? I still struggle to thi=
nk
> in RGB, let alone CMYK.  R=G=B=x gives me a dead neutral shade of grey,
> correct?  What would be warm/cool in RGB terms?
> 
> Roy and Carl:  I was wondering if it made sense to incorporate some of th=
e
> math posted by Carl into, say,  Run-Calc-Density so that you can get a se=
nse
> of measured rather than eyeballed warmth/coolness/neutrality of a curve o=
r
> curve combination.  Perhaps the calculations are too difficult  it is
> certainly way beyond my understanding for now.
> 
> Getting there slowly...
> 
> Steve
> 

The data files from MeasureTool have all the Lab data and some other info.
I wrote Calc-Density mainly to get the linearize data, but it is very helpf=
ul
to look at the full Lab info.   I just about always read the MT file into a=

AppleWorks spreadsheet and graph the L, a, and b data -- takes about 30
seconds or less.   Lab is actually very convenient, L should be a straight
line, a and b should smoothly go from paper white to ink black.

> 
> But what I just found interesting was to look at the 21 step wedge file i=
n
> PS with mode set to RGB (Adobe RGB 1998) and observing in the Info Palett=
e
> the relative RGB values and CMYK values.  For each step, R=G=B but in eac=
h
> case C>Y (and M=Y or only 1% more).....at the 100% patch C=75, M=68, Y=67=
,
> K=90.
> 
> ???
> 
> Steve
> 

I have limited color expertise but just about all CMYK setups have more cya=
n
in the mix for a neutral gray.  CMYK values in general are amounts of ink
on the paper, but what Paul is measuring is reflective densities.  Certainl=
y
related but different numbers.

Roy

RE: [Digital BW] Glossy printing with Eboni -- who needs a 4000?

2004-01-25 by Paul D. DeRocco

> From: Steve Kale [mailto:stevekale@...]
>
> A couple more basic questions and sorry if this is fundamental \ufffdcolour
> theory\ufffd.  What about the K in your CMYK readings? I still
> struggle to think
> in RGB, let alone CMYK.  R=G=B=x gives me a dead neutral shade of grey,
> correct?  What would be warm/cool in RGB terms?

Warm vs. cool refers to the appearance under different kinds of "black box"
illumination. Ironically, what people refer to as warm color is what you get
under lower color temps, like low-power incandescents, while what people
refer to as cool color is what you get under higher color temps, like shaded
sunlight. But different color temps roughly correspond to different overall
tilts to the spectrum, so warm prints would be obtained by goosing red a bit
and backing off on the blue, and vice versa. Typically the tweaks are so
small that you may find that you only need to twiddle one or the other.
Manipulating both equally moves you on a curve that goes from bluish-cyan
through gray and back down to reddish-yellow. If you've ever seen an ab or
xy plot of the range of color temps, you'll see that it's curved.

--

Ciao,               Paul D. DeRocco
Paul                mailto:pderocco@...

RE: [Digital BW] Glossy printing with Eboni -- who needs a 4000?

2004-01-25 by Paul D. DeRocco

> From: Roy Harrington [mailto:roy@...]
>
> The data files from MeasureTool have all the Lab data and some other info.
> I wrote Calc-Density mainly to get the linearize data, but it is
> very helpf= ul
> to look at the full Lab info.   I just about always read the MT
> file into a=
> AppleWorks spreadsheet and graph the L, a, and b data -- takes about 30
> seconds or less.   Lab is actually very convenient, L should be a straight
> line, a and b should smoothly go from paper white to ink black.

Do you have some sense about how much wiggle you can tolerate in the
grayscale (in terms of ab value variation) before it's visible?

--

Ciao,               Paul D. DeRocco
Paul                mailto:pderocco@...

Re: [Digital BW] Glossy printing with Eboni -- who needs a 4000?

2004-01-25 by Roy Harrington

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul D. DeRocco" 
<pderocco@i...> wrote:
> > From: Roy Harrington [mailto:roy@h...]
> >
> > The data files from MeasureTool have all the Lab data and some other info.
> > I wrote Calc-Density mainly to get the linearize data, but it is
> > very helpf= ul
> > to look at the full Lab info.   I just about always read the MT
> > file into a=
> > AppleWorks spreadsheet and graph the L, a, and b data -- takes about 30
> > seconds or less.   Lab is actually very convenient, L should be a straight
> > line, a and b should smoothly go from paper white to ink black.
> 
> Do you have some sense about how much wiggle you can tolerate in the
> grayscale (in terms of ab value variation) before it's visible?
> 
> --
> 
> Ciao,               Paul D. DeRocco
> Paul                mailto:pderocco@i...

That's a good question and I'd like to know what people can see as well.
Here's a few a,b value reference points:

EEM paper  is  (1,-5)        -- quite blue
PhotoRag   is  (.8, -1.2)   -- almost neutral
it;s pretty easy to see this, so 4 units is significant

50% of carbon ink is about (3,6)  -- definitely warm
50% of sepia curve is about (6,12) -- very warm 

Eboni black is about (.5,.75)  -- slightly warmish neutral

I'd be inclined to say wiggles less than +/- 1 are not noticeable and maybe
a fair amount more.   I also think it's mainly the midtones that show the
color.  No matter what, you have to go from paper white to dMax black.
So on EEM b has to change about 6 units.  With carbon only, you don't
get any choice and you pass neutral very quickly.  By about 13% b is positive,
and most people seem to accept that visually.   With a neutral curve there's
a lot more choices -- should it gradually climb the whole way meaning
negative b most of the way or should is climb quickly to zero and then level out.

Roy

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Glossy printing with Eboni - question for Roy

2004-07-12 by Steve Kale

Roy 

I am back having another look at glossy printing.  Unfortunately I don¹t
have the luxury of not using Eboni.  But I have found that the Eboni can be
bound in by the LK and other inks.  To date I have just played with the warm
curve and running LK to 90% while capping Eboni at 75% produces an ok dMax
of 1.83 and will survive spraying and a good Renaissance wax polish.  I was
curious though by the comment below, made when you guys were discovering
k-less printing with UT inks.  What is meant by ³20 overlap²?  I don¹t see
such a variable in the QTR curve descriptor files.

Cheers

Steve

Show quoted textHide quoted text

From: "Roy Harrington" <roy@...>
Reply-To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 18:37:20 -0000
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Glossy printing with Eboni -- who needs a 4000?

I was using 80% limit + 20 overlap on the carbon only curve and
50% C, 45% M + 20 overlap on the neutral curve.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Digital BW] Re: Glossy printing with Eboni - question for Roy

2004-07-12 by Roy Harrington

Hi Steve,

There's a variable called GRAY_OVERLAP.  It's a percentage of ink
in excess of 100% coverage for the gray partitioning.   On the 100 step
you will always have the full amount of black plus you'll have the
GRAY_OVERLAP amount of the darkest gray.  The easiest way to
visualize this is to graph the curves and see how they change as a
function of GRAY_OVERLAP.

Roy

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale <stevekale@=
b...> 
wrote:
> Roy 
> 
> I am back having another look at glossy printing.  Unfortunately I don¹t
> have the luxury of not using Eboni.  But I have found that the Eboni can =
be
> bound in by the LK and other inks.  To date I have just played with the w=
arm
> curve and running LK to 90% while capping Eboni at 75% produces an ok dMa=
x
> of 1.83 and will survive spraying and a good Renaissance wax polish.  I w=
as
> curious though by the comment below, made when you guys were discovering
> k-less printing with UT inks.  What is meant by ³20 overlap²?  I don¹t se=
e

Show quoted textHide quoted text

> such a variable in the QTR curve descriptor files.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Steve
> 
> 
> From: "Roy Harrington" <roy@h...>
> Reply-To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 18:37:20 -0000
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Glossy printing with Eboni -- who needs a 4000?=

> 
> 
> I was using 80% limit + 20 overlap on the carbon only curve and
> 50% C, 45% M + 20 overlap on the neutral curve.
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Glossy printing with Eboni - question for Roy

2004-07-12 by Steve Kale

Thanks.  Will give it a try.

Show quoted textHide quoted text

From: "Roy Harrington" <roy@...>
Reply-To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 22:33:32 -0000
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Glossy printing with Eboni - question for Roy

Hi Steve,

There's a variable called GRAY_OVERLAP.  It's a percentage of ink
in excess of 100% coverage for the gray partitioning.   On the 100 step
you will always have the full amount of black plus you'll have the
GRAY_OVERLAP amount of the darkest gray.  The easiest way to
visualize this is to graph the curves and see how they change as a
function of GRAY_OVERLAP.

Roy

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Glossy printing with Eboni - question for Roy

2004-07-12 by Steve Kale

If UC_NEUTRALIZER=YES does it overlap with the combined LK, LM, and LC?

Show quoted textHide quoted text

From: "Roy Harrington" <roy@...>
Reply-To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 22:33:32 -0000
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Glossy printing with Eboni - question for Roy

Hi Steve,

There's a variable called GRAY_OVERLAP.  It's a percentage of ink
in excess of 100% coverage for the gray partitioning.   On the 100 step
you will always have the full amount of black plus you'll have the
GRAY_OVERLAP amount of the darkest gray.  The easiest way to
visualize this is to graph the curves and see how they change as a
function of GRAY_OVERLAP.

Roy

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: Glossy printing with Eboni - question for Roy

2004-07-13 by Roy Harrington

Yes,  its the overlap percent *  each of the ink limits.
Roy


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale <stevekale@b...> 
wrote:

Show quoted textHide quoted text

> If UC_NEUTRALIZER=YES does it overlap with the combined LK, LM, and LC?
> 
> 
> 
> From: "Roy Harrington" <roy@h...>
> Reply-To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 22:33:32 -0000
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Glossy printing with Eboni - question for Roy
> 
> Hi Steve,
> 
> There's a variable called GRAY_OVERLAP.  It's a percentage of ink
> in excess of 100% coverage for the gray partitioning.   On the 100 step
> you will always have the full amount of black plus you'll have the
> GRAY_OVERLAP amount of the darkest gray.  The easiest way to
> visualize this is to graph the curves and see how they change as a
> function of GRAY_OVERLAP.
> 
> Roy
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Glossy printing with Eboni -- who needs a 4000?

2004-07-16 by Steve Kale

Carl 

Are you still running with this setup?  Were these figures out of the
printer without spraying etc? Have you tried coating these prints with
Renaissance Wax and if so what was the impact on dMax etc?

(What is the dMax range that is typical of a traditional wet process?)

And finally, do you notice a massive improvement having switched away from
the Epson UCs to a dedicated B&W setup?  I know this question is loaded but
I really like what QTR has been able to produce with my 2200 and I am
wondering if there is another quantum leap to be achieved or just a small
step up.  If it is a small step I will stay where I am but if not
then....maybe....

Cheers

Steve

Show quoted textHide quoted text

> From: Carl Schofield <scho@...>
> Reply-To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 11:01:43 -0500
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Glossy printing with Eboni -- who needs a 4000?
> 
> Paul,
> 
> I didn't experiment with adding Eboni back in the profiles because the
> results were so good without it.  However, the initial trials I made by
> reducing 100% output suggested that eboni did reduce dmax beyond
> 90-92%, but I don't know how much Eboni was actually being used in
> those tests.  I did some more trials with my "K-less" UT1 curves on
> several other RC papers, using the neutral 50:50 blend of the cool:warm
> curves that were developed for Epson Photo Paper,  and got the
> following results:
> 
> Epson Photo Paper - dmax 1.932 no bronzing
> Epson Premium Semi-gloss - dmax 2.337 slight bronzing
> PermaJet Oyster 271 - dmax 2.194 moderate bronzing
> Oriental Graphica FB - dmax 1.529 slight bronzing, but mottling, very
> weak blacks, scratches easily
> Pictorico Dualside - dmax 2.347 moderate to severe bronzing, warm grays
> Ilford Smooth Pearl - dmax 2.328 very, very slight bronzing
> (essentially none)
> 
> Despite the lower dmax, I liked the appearance of the Epson Photo Paper
> prints.  This was the only paper with zero bronzing and the soft gloss
> did not produce distracting surface reflections - probably the closest
> to an air-dried glossy silver fiber print .  The Ilford Smooth Pearl
> would be a close second choice for me, particularly where a higher dmax
> is needed.
> 
> Carl

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Glossy printing with Eboni -- who needs a 4000?

2004-07-16 by Carl Schofield

Steve,

I now use the MIS UT2 inks (with Eboni K) in my Epson 1270 with QTR 
(and IJC/OPM) profiles that exclude the Eboni K for printing on either 
Epson Photo paper or Ilford Smooth Pearl.  The Epson Photo paper needs 
no spraying nor waxing because there is no bronzing, but waxing will 
increase dmax and add more gloss (I prefer the low gloss appearance 
without wax).  Ilford Smooth Pearl has some slight residual bronzing 
that can be eliminated with just waxing, but the wax goes on easier 
after a preliminary spray (one coat) with PremierArt PrintShield.  I 
was using the UT inks in my 2200 for awhile and got similar results, 
but for now I'm back to the UC inks in the 2200 because the MIS 2200 
carts are just too unreliable (lots of cleaning cycles are needed to 
restore air blocked nozzles, which wastes a lot of ink and loads up the 
ink pad).  I understand that some new 2200 carts may soon be available 
that eliminate this problem and I may go back to using either the UT or 
UT7 inks in the 2200 when the new carts become available.  I gave up 
trying to use the 2200 with UC inks for printing on the RC papers 
because of the bronzing issues caused by the light inks (LC, LM, and 
LK).  The dmax numbers you cited below were without spraying or waxing 
and will increase significantly with either treatment.  I don't have 
any dmax data for silver prints.  I think that the UT inks (UT, UT2, 
UT7) give much better performance on RC papers than the the UC inks.  
Bronzing is less of a problem and it is easier to control tones with 
the UT inks.

Carl

Show quoted textHide quoted text

On Friday, July 16, 2004, at 12:44  PM, Steve Kale wrote:

> Carl
>
> Are you still running with this setup?  Were these figures out of the
> printer without spraying etc? Have you tried coating these prints with
> Renaissance Wax and if so what was the impact on dMax etc?
>
> (What is the dMax range that is typical of a traditional wet process?)
>
> And finally, do you notice a massive improvement having switched away 
> from
> the Epson UCs to a dedicated B&W setup?  I know this question is 
> loaded but
> I really like what QTR has been able to produce with my 2200 and I am
> wondering if there is another quantum leap to be achieved or just a 
> small
> step up.  If it is a small step I will stay where I am but if not
> then....maybe....
>
> Cheers
>
> Steve
>
>> From: Carl Schofield <scho@...>
>> Reply-To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
>> Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 11:01:43 -0500
>> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
>> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Glossy printing with Eboni -- who needs 
>> a 4000?
>>
>> Paul,
>>
>> I didn't experiment with adding Eboni back in the profiles because the
>> results were so good without it.  However, the initial trials I made 
>> by
>> reducing 100% output suggested that eboni did reduce dmax beyond
>> 90-92%, but I don't know how much Eboni was actually being used in
>> those tests.  I did some more trials with my "K-less" UT1 curves on
>> several other RC papers, using the neutral 50:50 blend of the 
>> cool:warm
>> curves that were developed for Epson Photo Paper,  and got the
>> following results:
>>
>> Epson Photo Paper - dmax 1.932 no bronzing
>> Epson Premium Semi-gloss - dmax 2.337 slight bronzing
>> PermaJet Oyster 271 - dmax 2.194 moderate bronzing
>> Oriental Graphica FB - dmax 1.529 slight bronzing, but mottling, very
>> weak blacks, scratches easily
>> Pictorico Dualside - dmax 2.347 moderate to severe bronzing, warm 
>> grays
>> Ilford Smooth Pearl - dmax 2.328 very, very slight bronzing
>> (essentially none)
>>
>> Despite the lower dmax, I liked the appearance of the Epson Photo 
>> Paper
>> prints.  This was the only paper with zero bronzing and the soft gloss
>> did not produce distracting surface reflections - probably the closest
>> to an air-dried glossy silver fiber print .  The Ilford Smooth Pearl
>> would be a close second choice for me, particularly where a higher 
>> dmax
>> is needed.
>>
>> Carl
>
>
>
>
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[Digital BW] Re: Glossy printing with Eboni -- who needs a4000?

2004-07-16 by Steve Kale

The reason why I was asking is that I understand from an earlier posting by Paul Roark 
that the UT2/7 greys are basically dilutions of MIS Photo Black.  So in essence you guys 
were layering different gradations of PK to get quite startling dMax.  I went back to using 
Epson UC PK (but with the MIS UC equivalent inks for the other colours) and a relatively 
heavy load (limit 85%, boost 95%, no overlaps) PK can only produce a dMax of around 
1.95 on Epson Premium Semi-Gloss.  (Wax will raise this over 2.4 but as you say it 
changes the gloss and is also a lot of work.  I found it does a lot for bronzing also.)  I am 
surprised you got such high numbers from what is essentially MIS PK.

I have ordered some MIS PK (in CFS form so that I can simply have an 8 ink CFS and switch 
blacks as with cartridges).

I have almost had enough of spraying RC paper because I find it leaves speckles on the 
print.  It is almost impossible not to leave tell-tale marks.  I found that if the ink load is 
not too high then wax can be applied without spraying.

Of course it would be great to not have to spray or wax.  Hence coming back to the 
question of PK....


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Carl Schofield <scho@m...> 
wrote:

Show quoted textHide quoted text

> Steve,
> 
> I now use the MIS UT2 inks (with Eboni K) in my Epson 1270 with QTR 
> (and IJC/OPM) profiles that exclude the Eboni K for printing on either 
> Epson Photo paper or Ilford Smooth Pearl.  The Epson Photo paper needs 
> no spraying nor waxing because there is no bronzing, but waxing will 
> increase dmax and add more gloss (I prefer the low gloss appearance 
> without wax).  Ilford Smooth Pearl has some slight residual bronzing 
> that can be eliminated with just waxing, but the wax goes on easier 
> after a preliminary spray (one coat) with PremierArt PrintShield.  I 
> was using the UT inks in my 2200 for awhile and got similar results, 
> but for now I'm back to the UC inks in the 2200 because the MIS 2200 
> carts are just too unreliable (lots of cleaning cycles are needed to 
> restore air blocked nozzles, which wastes a lot of ink and loads up the 
> ink pad).  I understand that some new 2200 carts may soon be available 
> that eliminate this problem and I may go back to using either the UT or 
> UT7 inks in the 2200 when the new carts become available.  I gave up 
> trying to use the 2200 with UC inks for printing on the RC papers 
> because of the bronzing issues caused by the light inks (LC, LM, and 
> LK).  The dmax numbers you cited below were without spraying or waxing 
> and will increase significantly with either treatment.  I don't have 
> any dmax data for silver prints.  I think that the UT inks (UT, UT2, 
> UT7) give much better performance on RC papers than the the UC inks.  
> Bronzing is less of a problem and it is easier to control tones with 
> the UT inks.
> 
> Carl
>