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Great New Group to Join - "Giclee Business 101"

Great New Group to Join - "Giclee Business 101"

2005-04-19 by archivalgolf

Hello All,

I am writing this to inform those of you of a new GROUP where
the "business of producing and selling giclees" is discussed,
shared, and studied for the benefit of its members. The group is
called, creatively, "Giclee Business 101".

The differentiating feature of Giclee Business 101 is that the
topics will focus on high level topics of running a giclee printing
business. These include but are not limited to finance, marketing,
accounting, management, and operations. As of now, we have 57
members and are encouraged to see that there are some pretty high
level individuals within that group with impressive credentials.

- It can be joined by clicking here:

http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/gicleebusiness101/


- Here is the group description:

"This group was created for giclee printing professionals only for
the purpose of exchanging valuable business information. Those in
the business of printing, publishing, and selling giclee fine art
and fine art photographic prints can learn from one another's
business experiences, exchange information, and reduce the amount of
trial and error inherent in any small to mid-size business printing
operation. The focus should not be so much technical; but instead
remain more on the business side of things.

Only Owners of Epson R800, 2200, 4000, 5500, 7000, 7500, 7600, 9000,
9500, 9600, 10000, 10600 inkjet printers, Roland, Colorspan, and
Hewlett-Packard (HP) inkjet printers are encouraged to join this
group.

The discussions taking place in this group are held to very high
standards and are moderated heavily in order to remain on topic at
all times. Any direct solicitations by manufacturers and/or vendors
of any type are strictly prohibited on the basis of upholding the
unbiased credibility of the information discussed. This group,
unlike many other groups, will be very strictly moderated.

Anyone who directly solicits will be suspended from group activity.
Therefore, we encourage true unbiased discussion regarding personal
experiences and all valuable product feedback that may be offerred.

Please invite others to join this group if you feel that they might
benefit from the wealth of knowledge, as well as contribute to the
overall purpose."

There is a great discussion that has just begun, and here is the
topic (definetely worth the read):

Hello All,

I would like to begin a discussion relating to the
finance/accounting aspects of a giclee printing business. These
include:

1. How you calculate actual print costs from job to job(print job
costing), in order to accurately find your net profit/job.
2. How you go about coming up with the numbers to prepare quotes
for individual jobs
3. How you analyze your printers productivity (are you using it to
its full capacity?)
4. How you calculate/estimate your cost per square foot of ink
(aside from what the manufacturer tells you)

I believe this discussion is extremely relevant and that a lot of
help will be extracted from it -- through member contributions --
that everyone will benefit from.

So, the first thing everyone needs to ask themselves is this
question: When you look at numbers 1-4 above, do you know the
answers right now? If you do, you are in good shape. I am
encouraging you to share your thoughts with the group. If you do
not, it's time to start.

Cost analysis, in particular, is one of the most critical aspects of
any business. Aside from other benefits, thorough cost analysis
allows you to understand the intricacies of how your business
operates, and it allows you to locate problems that are causing you
to lose money.

Here are some potential problems:
1. your production is inefficient.

You might be screwing up too many prints, causing you to eat the
costs of ink and paper, and the cost of your time.

For example, if you are doing a job that requires 100 prints, and it
takes you 125 prints to get the perfect 100 prints, those 25 prints
are eating into your profit margin of that job. You need to find
out exactly what that number is, so that you can find out what your
exact defect rate is. If you know your defect rate, you are then
better equipped to quote your next job profitably. You also have a
number that you can use as a basis of improvement.

It will be interesting to find out what everyone's defect rate is,
so that, we can use the numbers as a means of comparing ourselves to
one another. Simply knowing that you could be doing better is great
information in and of itself.

2. you are not maximizing the usage of your investment (the
printer).

I see it all the time. Some print studios have 5 printers and in
reality they only need 3. Problem is, they have no idea. It may
seem that they need all those printers, but they really dont. They
are not tracking their level of productivity and they are fooling
themselves.

Once again, good information about your business is king. In my
example above, the studio could sell 2 printers and use the money to
set up an ecommerce web site, to advertise, to go to a trade show --
or anything else that hasnt "made the budget" yet. Use the money to
grow. You're investing it, so you may as well invest it into
something that will provide returns.

Ok -- enough from me. Let's get it started!! Your contributions
are appreciated. Please start your post with a brief introduction
and some background of what you do, what you have done, any
credentials, etc. that are of relevance to this group and this
discussion."

I am thankful for those of you who can help us all out by making
contributions.

All the Best,

Phil Fischer

Re: Great New Group to Join - "Giclee Business 101"

2005-04-21 by koloshor

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "archivalgolf"
<archivalgolf@y...> wrote:
> 
> Only Owners of Epson R800, 2200, 4000, 5500, 7000, 7500, 7600, 9000,
> 9500, 9600, 10000, 10600 inkjet printers, Roland, Colorspan, and
> Hewlett-Packard (HP) inkjet printers are encouraged to join this
> group.

I love it. "Only Owners of Epson R800...." (ellipses mine)

But not Scitex. You know, the guys who make the Iris (the printer for
which the overly pretentious term "Giclee" was actually coined).

The real "Giclee 101" lesson. If you're going to have a group about
the "business of producing ... giclees" (ellipses mine, again) you
should learn what producing giclees means.

Re: Great New Group to Join - "Giclee Business 101"

2005-04-21 by Tyler Boley

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "koloshor"
<wiz@n...> wrote:
...
> The real "Giclee 101" lesson. If you're going to have a group about
> the "business of producing ... giclees" (ellipses mine, again) you
> should learn what producing giclees means.


I wouldn't join it even though I suppose that's what I do, just
because the word is proudly used by it.
Giclees have been given a bad name by a soap opera past, way too many
bad shops, editions made in the thousands that won't last a decade,
not to mention that the name is poorly chosen and displays a lack of
cultural sensitivety. It's stupid, like walking around with and
"idiot" sign someone taped to your back, but somehow proud of it.
I would go anywhere near it.

Tyler
www.custom-digital.com

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Great New Group to Join - "Giclee Business 101"

2005-04-21 by J Vee

I agree, but unfortunately that is the term that is understood by most.
Thus, I think we are stuck with it for the time being.  Does such a group as
koloshor mentions exist?


On 4/21/05 10:07 AM, "Tyler Boley" <tyler@...> wrote:

> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "koloshor"
> <wiz@n...> wrote:
> ...
>> > The real "Giclee 101" lesson. If you're going to have a group about
>> > the "business of producing ... giclees" (ellipses mine, again) you
>> > should learn what producing giclees means.
> 
> 
> I wouldn't join it even though I suppose that's what I do, just
> because the word is proudly used by it.
> Giclees have been given a bad name by a soap opera past, way too many
> bad shops, editions made in the thousands that won't last a decade,
> not to mention that the name is poorly chosen and displays a lack of
> cultural sensitivety. It's stupid, like walking around with and
> "idiot" sign someone taped to your back, but somehow proud of it.
> I would go anywhere near it.
> 
> Tyler



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: Great New Group to Join - "Giclee Business 101"

2005-04-21 by john dean

Well said. 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> I wouldn't join it even though I suppose that's what I do, just
> because the word is proudly used by it.
> Giclees have been given a bad name by a soap opera past, way too many
> bad shops, editions made in the thousands that won't last a decade,
> not to mention that the name is poorly chosen and displays a lack of
> cultural sensitivety. It's stupid, like walking around with and
> "idiot" sign someone taped to your back, but somehow proud of it.
> I would go anywhere near it.
> 
> Tyler
> www.custom-digital.com

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Great New Group to Join - "Giclee Business 101"

2005-04-21 by Mark Savoia

I'm afraid the marketing damage has been done.

If I had a dollar for every time I had to explain to a potential 
customer that the process I am printing with, Epsons on art papers, are 
indeed Giclees, I would have to print less to earn a living. I just now 
say "yes we do Giclees". I feel like a parrot after a while.

As far as that group, it will be fun to watch anyway :)
Mark

On Apr 21, 2005, at 11:33 AM, john dean wrote:

>
>  Well said.
>
>
>  > I wouldn't join it even though I suppose that's what I do, just
>  > because the word is proudly used by it.
>  > Giclees have been given a bad name by a soap opera past, way too 
> many
>  > bad shops, editions made in the thousands that won't last a decade,
>  > not to mention that the name is poorly chosen and displays a lack of
>  > cultural sensitivety. It's stupid, like walking around with and
>  > "idiot" sign someone taped to your back, but somehow proud of it.
>  > I would go anywhere near it.
>  >
>  > Tyler
>  > www.custom-digital.com
>
>
>
>
>
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Digital BW] Re: Great New Group to Join - "Giclee Business 101"

2005-04-21 by john dean

I'm not stuck with it. I've been doing this work for artists  for  over 5 years and 
I've never used the term and never will. It is an embarrassment to even think 
about using it. In the art world there is always a tendency for people to latch 
on to a catch phrase in oder to give what they produce some credibility, 
especially when they don't know much and are more interested in marketing 
than substance. My old French girlfriend is just giggling out there somewhere 
even thinking about me discussing this again.

John ( spurting off again )



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, J Vee <j.vee@g...> 
wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> I agree, but unfortunately that is the term that is understood by most.
> Thus, I think we are stuck with it for the time being.  Does such a group as
> koloshor mentions exist?
> 
> 
> On 4/21/05 10:07 AM, "Tyler Boley" <tyler@t...> wrote:
> 
> > 
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "koloshor"
> > <wiz@n...> wrote:
> > ...
> >> > The real "Giclee 101" lesson. If you're going to have a group about
> >> > the "business of producing ... giclees" (ellipses mine, again) you
> >> > should learn what producing giclees means.
> > 
> > 
> > I wouldn't join it even though I suppose that's what I do, just
> > because the word is proudly used by it.
> > Giclees have been given a bad name by a soap opera past, way too many
> > bad shops, editions made in the thousands that won't last a decade,
> > not to mention that the name is poorly chosen and displays a lack of
> > cultural sensitivety. It's stupid, like walking around with and
> > "idiot" sign someone taped to your back, but somehow proud of it.
> > I would go anywhere near it.
> > 
> > Tyler
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

RE: [Digital BW] Re: Great New Group to Join - "Giclee Business 101"

2005-04-21 by Seth

You mean stolen.

Anyway, it has become like Kleenex, Bandaid and Baggies, so it IS
pretentious!!

Seth

==-----Original Message-----

==Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2005 8:13 AM
==
==But not Scitex. You know, the guys who make the Iris (the 
==printer for which the overly pretentious term "Giclee" was 
==actually coined).
==
==

[Digital BW] Re: Great New Group to Join - "Giclee Business101"

2005-04-21 by Michael Faye

It seems that nobody like Giclee, so what term do you use?  



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "john dean" 
<deanwork2003@y...> wrote:
> 
> I'm not stuck with it. I've been doing this work for artists  for 
over 5 years and 
> I've never used the term and never will. It is an embarrassment to
even think 
> about using it. In the art world there is always a tendency for
people to latch 
> on to a catch phrase in oder to give what they produce some
credibility, 
> especially when they don't know much and are more interested in
marketing 
> than substance. My old French girlfriend is just giggling out there
somewhere 
> even thinking about me discussing this again.
> 
> John ( spurting off again )
> 
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, J Vee
<j.vee@g...> 
> wrote:
> > I agree, but unfortunately that is the term that is understood by
most.
> > Thus, I think we are stuck with it for the time being.  Does such
a group as
> > koloshor mentions exist?
> > 
> > 
> > On 4/21/05 10:07 AM, "Tyler Boley" <tyler@t...> wrote:
> > 
> > > 
> > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "koloshor"
> > > <wiz@n...> wrote:
> > > ...
> > >> > The real "Giclee 101" lesson. If you're going to have a
group about
> > >> > the "business of producing ... giclees" (ellipses mine,
again) you
> > >> > should learn what producing giclees means.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > I wouldn't join it even though I suppose that's what I do, just
> > > because the word is proudly used by it.
> > > Giclees have been given a bad name by a soap opera past, way
too many
> > > bad shops, editions made in the thousands that won't last a
decade,
> > > not to mention that the name is poorly chosen and displays a
lack of
> > > cultural sensitivety. It's stupid, like walking around with and
> > > "idiot" sign someone taped to your back, but somehow proud of
it.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> > > I would go anywhere near it.
> > > 
> > > Tyler
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Great New Group to Join - "Giclee Business101"

2005-04-21 by Mark Savoia

This subject was beaten to death before. Call them what YOU want and 
works for your clients.
Mark

On Apr 21, 2005, at 1:15 PM, Michael Faye wrote:

>  It seems that nobody like Giclee, so what term do you use? 

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Digital BW] Re: Great New Group to Join - "Giclee Business101"

2005-04-21 by guy washburn

Photographs. I call them photographs.

Carbon Pigment on archival cotton paper if pressed further about what
materials are involved.

Guy
--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Faye"
<mfp90021@y...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> 
> It seems that nobody like Giclee, so what term do you use?  
>

Re: Great New Group to Join - "Giclee Business 101"

2005-04-21 by koloshor

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Tyler Boley"
<tyler@t...> wrote:
> 
> I wouldn't join it even though I suppose that's what I do, just
> because the word is proudly used by it.

It's like the "fimo" or "sculpy" artists who insist on calling it
"polymer clay" or "low fired clay". They turn colors when you call it
"plastic".

> Giclees have been given a bad name by a soap opera past, way too many
> bad shops, editions made in the thousands that won't last a decade,
> not to mention that the name is poorly chosen and displays a lack of
> cultural sensitivety. It's stupid, like walking around with and
> "idiot" sign someone taped to your back, but somehow proud of it.
> I would go anywhere near it.

It's getting worse. Epson has trademarked "Ultra Giclee". Now, there's
a porn star name. ;) 

Staples Fine Art has trademarked "Heritage Giclee".

There's a "Giclée Printer's Association", which appears to be the sole
property of Harald Johnson, who's plugging his book on the front page
of the GPA web site.

The GPA has two levels of certification (and two trademarks), "Tru
Décor" and "Tru Giclée".   Most of the materials the GPA recommends
can't actually meet their Tru Giclée certification criteria, so I'd
lump them in with the infamous IFPO . You remember them, pay your
membership dues, get a "press pass" that won't actually get you into
anything.

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Great New Group to Join - "Giclee Business 101"

2005-04-21 by Mark Savoia

Very depressing, isn't it? Can anyone recommend a desert island with 
electricity?
Mark
look_ma_no_hands_giclees.com

On Apr 21, 2005, at 3:56 PM, koloshor wrote:

>
>  --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Tyler Boley"
>  <tyler@t...> wrote:
>  >
>  > I wouldn't join it even though I suppose that's what I do, just
>  > because the word is proudly used by it.
>
>  It's like the "fimo" or "sculpy" artists who insist on calling it
>  "polymer clay" or "low fired clay". They turn colors when you call it
>  "plastic".
>
>  > Giclees have been given a bad name by a soap opera past, way too 
> many
>  > bad shops, editions made in the thousands that won't last a decade,
>  > not to mention that the name is poorly chosen and displays a lack of
>  > cultural sensitivety. It's stupid, like walking around with and
>  > "idiot" sign someone taped to your back, but somehow proud of it.
>  > I would go anywhere near it.
>
>  It's getting worse. Epson has trademarked "Ultra Giclee". Now, there's
>  a porn star name. ;)
>
>  Staples Fine Art has trademarked "Heritage Giclee".
>
>  There's a "Gicl�e Printer's Association", which appears to be the sole
>  property of Harald Johnson, who's plugging his book on the front page
>  of the GPA web site.
>
>  The GPA has two levels of certification (and two trademarks), "Tru
>  D�cor" and "Tru Gicl�e".�� Most of the materials the GPA recommends
>  can't actually meet their Tru Gicl�e certification criteria, so I'd
>  lump them in with the infamous IFPO . You remember them, pay your
>  membership dues, get a "press pass" that won't actually get you into
>  anything.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
> resources as they are often being updated.
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
>  If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish 
> to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting 
> this same page.
>
>  Please follow these basic guidelines:
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>  - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or 
> flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from 
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> B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be 
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> LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, 
> CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, 
> DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE 
> LOSSES (EVEN IF THE� �OWNER� AND �MODERATORS� OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT 
> YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), 
> RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, 
> THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF 
> YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD 
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

RE: [Digital BW] Re: Great New Group to Join - "Giclee Business 101"

2005-04-21 by Seth

Don't need no stinkin' electricity.  Just plug into a wild currant bush
<GGG>
Seth 

==-----Original Message-----
==From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
==
==Very depressing, isn't it? Can anyone recommend a desert 
==island with electricity?
==Mark

==>  --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Tyler Boley"
==>  <tyler@t...> wrote:
==>  >
==>  > I wouldn't join it even though I suppose that's what I 
==do, just  > 
==> because the word is proudly used by it.
==>
==>  It's like the "fimo" or "sculpy" artists who insist on calling it  
==> "polymer clay" or "low fired clay". They turn colors when 
==you call it  
==> "plastic".
==>
==>  > Giclees have been given a bad name by a soap opera past, way too

Re: [Digital BW] Great New Group to Join - "Giclee Business 101"

2005-04-22 by Dennis W. Manasco

At 1:57 AM +0000 4/19/05, archivalgolf wrote:

>a new GROUP where the "business of producing and selling giclees" is 
>discussed, shared, and studied


A group about "squirting" ?

On paper?

And they're actually letting other people touch them and _buy_ them?

Gross!

They're calling it a business, but it sounds more like a judicable 
offence to me.


The word "giclee" is great for a whole range of obscure obscene jokes.

But:

Using the word giclee to describe a photographic printing process is 
monumentally insulting to the intelligence of photographers. And 
their potential buyers.

Trying to standardize on the word giclee to describe a photographic 
printing process is a mind-bendingly stupid idea. The hilariously 
(and, to some, disgustingly) obscene antecedents of the word will 
come back to haunt it perpetually.


-=-Dennis
















.














.

Re: [Digital BW] Great New Group to Join - "Giclee Business 101"

2005-04-22 by Phillip Fisher

Hi Dennis,
 
Perhaps a better word could have been chosen.  Surely it cant make the purists pleased. :)
 
But the fact that a word was established, from a business standpoint, was crucial.  It allowed for the acceptance of the product and the process, because, the product and the process had a collective "brand".  This brand could then be judged, tested, and discussed, collectively in order to create market acceptance and the market to sell art as "giclees", in and of itself.    
 
I applaud the industry innovators for picking a word with some pizzazz, a word that begged questions,  a word that created curiosity.  I applaud the fact that they knew they needed a "brand" to describe and methodologize this new way of printing and marketing fine art.  
 
Phil
 


"Dennis W. Manasco" <dmanasco@...> wrote:
At 1:57 AM +0000 4/19/05, archivalgolf wrote:

>a new GROUP where the "business of producing and selling giclees" is 
>discussed, shared, and studied


A group about "squirting" ?

On paper?

And they're actually letting other people touch them and _buy_ them?

Gross!

They're calling it a business, but it sounds more like a judicable 
offence to me.


The word "giclee" is great for a whole range of obscure obscene jokes.

But:

Using the word giclee to describe a photographic printing process is 
monumentally insulting to the intelligence of photographers. And 
their potential buyers.

Trying to standardize on the word giclee to describe a photographic 
printing process is a mind-bendingly stupid idea. The hilariously 
(and, to some, disgustingly) obscene antecedents of the word will 
come back to haunt it perpetually.


-=-Dennis
















.














.


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: Great New Group to Join - "Giclee Business 101"

2005-04-22 by lulalake_1999

Phil,

I understand your points however what happened is another story. The 
word is fairly well seen by the artists themselves as what it is, a 
bad marketing ploy. A "cool" name that ain't so cool, yet another 
categorization that's aimed at marketers to help them make money, not 
the artists themselves. They do us no favor calling what we 
do "Giclee". What crap. Ron Popiel would be happy with "Giclee". 

This obvious corporate contrivance is in no way established and with 
any luck it never will be. 

Jules



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Phillip Fisher 
<archivalgolf@y...> wrote:
> 
> Hi Dennis,
>  
> Perhaps a better word could have been chosen.  Surely it cant make 
the purists pleased. :)
>  
> But the fact that a word was established, from a business 
standpoint, was crucial.  It allowed for the acceptance of the 
product and the process, because, the product and the process had a 
collective "brand".  This brand could then be judged, tested, and 
discussed, collectively in order to create market acceptance and the 
market to sell art as "giclees", in and of itself.    
>  
> I applaud the industry innovators for picking a word with some 
pizzazz, a word that begged questions,  a word that created 
curiosity.  I applaud the fact that they knew they needed a "brand" 
to describe and methodologize this new way of printing and marketing 
fine art.  
>  
> Phil
>  
> 
> 
> "Dennis W. Manasco" <dmanasco@i...> wrote:
> At 1:57 AM +0000 4/19/05, archivalgolf wrote:
> 
> >a new GROUP where the "business of producing and selling giclees" 
is 
> >discussed, shared, and studied
> 
> 
> A group about "squirting" ?
> 
> On paper?
> 
> And they're actually letting other people touch them and _buy_ them?
> 
> Gross!
> 
> They're calling it a business, but it sounds more like a judicable 
> offence to me.
> 
> 
> The word "giclee" is great for a whole range of obscure obscene 
jokes.
> 
> But:
> 
> Using the word giclee to describe a photographic printing process 
is 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> monumentally insulting to the intelligence of photographers. And 
> their potential buyers.
> 
> Trying to standardize on the word giclee to describe a photographic 
> printing process is a mind-bendingly stupid idea. The hilariously 
> (and, to some, disgustingly) obscene antecedents of the word will 
> come back to haunt it perpetually.
> 
> 
> -=-Dennis
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .
> 
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
> http://mail.yahoo.com 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: Great New Group to Join - "Giclee Business 101"

2005-04-23 by john dean

A word that showed a shallow American ignorance of the French language.
Its funny how we bash the hell out of the French until its time to steal one of 
their words to give our commerce  aesthetic credibily, with no knowledge of 
the words derivation.
Shall we please move on...

??????????????????????????????????????????????????

I applaud the industry innovators for picking a word with some
pizzazz, a word that begged questions, a word that created
curiosity. I applaud the fact that they knew they needed a "brand"
to describe and methodologize this new way of printing and marketing
fine art.

Re: Great New Group to Join - "Giclee Business101"

2005-04-23 by John Bergholm

Just my opinion, but it seems to me that using fancy words like giclee
or carbon pigment prints is an attempt at covering up and "hiding" the
fact that we are making inkjet prints - why, because we are embarassed
by our media?  i refuse to buy into the gelatin silver crowd's
ascertion that inkjet prints aren't worthy.  make your prints the
absolute best they can be and call them 'archival inkjet prints' with
pride.  only when we've proven the quality of our printing will the
term begin to carry a more positive connotation.



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Faye"
<mfp90021@y...> wrote:
> 
> It seems that nobody like Giclee, so what term do you use?  
> 
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "john dean" 
> <deanwork2003@y...> wrote:
> > 
> > I'm not stuck with it. I've been doing this work for artists  for 
> over 5 years and 
> > I've never used the term and never will. It is an embarrassment to
> even think 
> > about using it. In the art world there is always a tendency for
> people to latch 
> > on to a catch phrase in oder to give what they produce some
> credibility, 
> > especially when they don't know much and are more interested in
> marketing 
> > than substance. My old French girlfriend is just giggling out
there
> somewhere 
> > even thinking about me discussing this again.
> > 
> > John ( spurting off again )
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, J Vee
> <j.vee@g...> 
> > wrote:
> > > I agree, but unfortunately that is the term that is understood
by
> most.
> > > Thus, I think we are stuck with it for the time being.  Does
such
> a group as
> > > koloshor mentions exist?
> > > 
> > > 
> > > On 4/21/05 10:07 AM, "Tyler Boley" <tyler@t...> wrote:
> > > 
> > > > 
> > > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com,
"koloshor"
> > > > <wiz@n...> wrote:
> > > > ...
> > > >> > The real "Giclee 101" lesson. If you're going to have a
> group about
> > > >> > the "business of producing ... giclees" (ellipses mine,
> again) you
> > > >> > should learn what producing giclees means.
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > I wouldn't join it even though I suppose that's what I do,
just
> > > > because the word is proudly used by it.
> > > > Giclees have been given a bad name by a soap opera past, way
> too many
> > > > bad shops, editions made in the thousands that won't last a
> decade,
> > > > not to mention that the name is poorly chosen and displays a
> lack of
> > > > cultural sensitivety. It's stupid, like walking around with
and
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> > > > "idiot" sign someone taped to your back, but somehow proud of
> it.
> > > > I would go anywhere near it.
> > > > 
> > > > Tyler
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Great New Group to Join - "Giclee Business 101"

2005-04-23 by Dennis W. Manasco

At 2:05 PM -0700 4/22/05, Phillip Fisher wrote:

>Perhaps a better word could have been chosen.
>...
>But the fact that a word was established, from a business 
>standpoint, was crucial.
>...
>I applaud the industry innovators for picking a word with ....


Phil --

You, I, and everybody else, knows that "Industry Innovators" didn't 
pick the word.

Some cretin with an English/French dictionary, and no knowledge of 
colloquial French, had a gallery somewhere and wanted to sell some 
inkjet prints.

He knew that people who didn't know squat about art, but wanted 
something on their walls, wouldn't buy "common, grotty, 
computer-generated inkjet prints" that, to their mind, anyone could 
make in their spare bedroom.

So he thought what any avaricious cretin would:

Obfuscate away your problems!

(And what better language to choose for obfuscation than French: Most 
Americans have trouble pronouncing French words and phrases, and 
French always sounds much more refined and "Continental" than 
English. Especially when spoken condescendingly by a waiter in a 
white suit.)

Obfuscation is, after all, a time-honored method of increasing sales:

First make the customer feel that he (or she) is stupid because they 
can't understand what you're saying in some obscure jargon. Then the 
customer, unwilling to show their ignorance by asking for an 
explanation, will assume that the unintelligible words or phrases 
have positive implications. Thus they buy the product to prove their 
intelligence and sophistication. Q.E.D.

It's a good sales technique, so long as you like to treat your 
customers like ignorant cattle. (Though it's a treatment that can 
come back to haunt you once they realize they've been duped, and have 
told their friends.)

Aside the extraneous analysis of unscrupulous salesmanship above, the 
squirt-promoting cretin in question made a strategic error.

So do those who would jump on his bandwagon.

Giclee was a seriously wounded term from it's advent, but it's future 
is undeniable:

Guys will forever nudge their girlfriends in shops that sell 
'giclees,' whisper in their ears, laugh with them, and walk away 
without making a purchase.

Debs who've "unknowingly" purchased a 'giclee' and hung it on their 
wall will blanch at the first crude joke about it during a party, 
feel faint during the male-jokester-dominated explanation, lay low 
for the duration, hide the "obscenity" that made them a laughingstock 
in their own home, and never touch it again. And they'll be mad. 
Really mad...

Remember, there's nothing as dangerous as an angry Deb....


-=-Dennis






.

What we call our prints (Was "Great New Group ... Giclee ...")

2005-04-23 by Arthur Fink

At 04:22 AM 4/23/2005, John Bergholm wrote:

>Just my opinion, but it seems to me that using fancy words like giclee
>or carbon pigment prints is an attempt at covering up and "hiding" the
>fact that we are making inkjet prints - why, because we are embarassed
>by our media?  i refuse to buy into the gelatin silver crowd's
>ascertion that inkjet prints aren't worthy.  make your prints the
>absolute best they can be and call them 'archival inkjet prints' with
>pride.  only when we've proven the quality of our printing will the
>term begin to carry a more positive connotation.

On the use of the word "giclee", I agree.  It's pretentious and 
meaningless.  Also, it's been coopted by artists who use it to mean a 
digital copy of a painting.

I call my photographic prints "Inket carbon prints" and "Inkjet pigment 
prints".  In both cases, I want to differentiate the medium from  what is 
produced from a simple inkjet printer with dye based inks that will fade 
quickly.  I believe that the words I use are meaningful and accurate.  And 
if they start a discussion ... then good.  Buyers of my prints should be 
confident that the prints will last, that the ink won't fade or the paper 
crumble.  Buyers are interested to learn that my black and white prints are 
actually composed of real grays as well as black, and that different color 
pigments have different characteristics.


		A r t h u r    F i n k       P h o t o g r a p h y
		--------------------------------------------------
		Ten New Island Avenue  207.766.5722  cell 615.5722
		Peaks Island, Maine 04108    arthur@...

Re: What we call our prints (Was "Great New Group ... Giclee ...")

2005-04-23 by caelin2

First the qualifying statement...I have NOT been to the "Giclee 101" 
forum yet. Now my concern...I've been hanging out at this forum, on 
the sidelines, for some time. From time to time I've gleened some 
very valuable information...thank you all who contribute, I've even 
waded in a couple of times myself...but what I've also noticed is 
that questions or topics tend to get sidetracked often and easily. 
This thread started with a discussion about how to run a giclee 
business so that it's profitable for whomever wishes to attempt it. 
As I read it there might actually be some useful information there 
but in the matter of four or five replies it was debased to a 
rehashing of the subject of print naming, specifically "giclee" 
bashing. I'd just like to say "Get over it!" If you think there might 
be some useful information for you at that forum then go check it 
out. If you don't like the name giclee then don't use it, that 
simple, but I'd sure like to see people try to stay a little more 
focused on the original topics.

 
Respectfully,

Leon Strembitsky

www.caelinartworks.com

Re: [Digital BW] Great New Group to Join - "Giclee Business 101"

2005-04-23 by Clayton Jones

Dennis,

>squirt-promoting cretin

LOL!  Got a great laugh outta that one, and the entire post - Thanks
for making my day [big grin].


Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Re: Great New Group to Join - "Giclee Business101"

2005-04-23 by Clayton Jones

John,

>why, because we are embarassed by our media?  

I agree with Arthur.  I use the term "Carbon Ink Print" (for a variety
of reasons explained in an article on my web site, so I won't repeat
it here) not because I'm embarrased, but because it's a simple truth
that the term "inkjet print" carries some baggage that equates to poor
quality.  I want to make a clear statement that my prints are
something above that.

As arthur said, if the term we use starts a conversation, all the
better.  It gives us an opportunity to explain what we're doing. 
Right now I have some matted and sleeved prints in a gift shop.  In
each sleeve, on the back side, is a small paper with a brief
explanation of what a Carbon Ink print is.

Customer response has been very positive to the concept.  They seem
very impressed whenever I have an opportunity to explain it further in
person.

Is is a marketing strategy?  Of course, I'm trying to sell prints.  Is
it dishonest?  No, not at all.  Carbon Ink Print is a perfectly
accurate description.

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Re: Great New Group to Join - "Giclee Business101"

2005-04-23 by John Bergholm

To caelin2; if you read past my post you will see that i was
responding to a question posted by Michael Faye asking what people
like to use as a term, so it was not exactly off topic.

It was my understanding that this discussion group was for, well,
discussion, and to tell us to "get over it" is an attempt at
squelching discussion.  Why shouldn't we be allowed to discuss these
things, it's an important topic to our art.

To Clayton, yes, I read and really appreciated your article and was
kind of heading in that direction myself until i discovered that there
was an old, alternative photographic process called carbon printing,
and so I thought that might be confusing.  

However, to both Arthur and Clayton, at least you say your work is ink
or inkjet, and that's all I'm proposing.  I do, certainly, understand
the marketing aspect (I too am concerned with selling and displaying
my images) but I think that together, by showing excellent work we can
raise the standards and expectations of inkjet printing.

Respectfully,
-j-






--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clayton Jones"
<cj@c...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> 
> John,
> 
> >why, because we are embarassed by our media?  
> 
> I agree with Arthur.  I use the term "Carbon Ink Print" (for a variety
> of reasons explained in an article on my web site, so I won't repeat
> it here) not because I'm embarrased, but because it's a simple truth
> that the term "inkjet print" carries some baggage that equates to poor
> quality.  I want to make a clear statement that my prints are
> something above that.
> 
> As arthur said, if the term we use starts a conversation, all the
> better.  It gives us an opportunity to explain what we're doing. 
> Right now I have some matted and sleeved prints in a gift shop.  In
> each sleeve, on the back side, is a small paper with a brief
> explanation of what a Carbon Ink print is.
> 
> Customer response has been very positive to the concept.  They seem
> very impressed whenever I have an opportunity to explain it further in
> person.
> 
> Is is a marketing strategy?  Of course, I'm trying to sell prints.  Is
> it dishonest?  No, not at all.  Carbon Ink Print is a perfectly
> accurate description.
> 
> Regards,
> Clayton
> 
> 
> Info on black and white digital printing at    
> http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Re: Great New Group to Join - "Giclee Business101"

2005-04-23 by Clayton Jones

John,

Understood, your points are well taken.

>To Clayton, yes, I read and really appreciated your article and was
>kind of heading in that direction myself until i discovered that
there
>was an old, alternative photographic process called carbon printing,
>and so I thought that might be confusing.  

You may not remember, but I actually addressed exactly that point in
the article.  Here's the quote:

"Carbon Pigment Print"...seems to have evolved out of the controversy
that sprang up after some inkjet people used the term "Carbon Print",
and the people working in the old carbon print processes took offense
that their name was being hijacked.

My point was that "Carbon Pigment Print" and "Carbon Ink Print" both
avoid that controversy and seem to have satisfied the Carbon Print
people.  It's been over a year since I've seen any of those raging
debates.  So I think these terms are safe to use.

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Re: Great New Group to Join - "Giclee Business101"

2005-04-24 by caelin2

With all due respect John, when I said "get over it" I was refering 
to the old argument about what to call a digital print. Nothing more 
nothing less, guess I'm just tired of that discussion. I've heard it 
a lot on this forum so it seems like a re-hash to me. My intentions 
have never been to squelch discussion of any kind, I'd just like to 
see discussion pertinent to the topic presented. As to your reply 
being off topic, well technically you're correct, your response was 
on topic...where you got in on it. Unfortunately the beginning of the 
thread wasn't about what to name an inkjet print it was to inform 
people about a new group that was being formed to discuss the 
business of injet printing. That's what I meant by getting off topic. 
Sorry if I ruffled your feathers that wasn't my intention at all. 
I'll quietly go back to my skulking in the shadows now and if and 
when I have some concrete imperical information to pass along then I 
will. 

Respectfully,
Leon Strembitsky "caelin2"

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "John Bergholm" 
<jbergholm@y...> wrote:
> 
> To caelin2; if you read past my post you will see that i was
> responding to a question posted by Michael Faye asking what people
> like to use as a term, so it was not exactly off topic.
> 
> It was my understanding that this discussion group was for, well,
> discussion, and to tell us to "get over it" is an attempt at
> squelching discussion.  Why shouldn't we be allowed to discuss these
> things, it's an important topic to our art.
> 
> To Clayton, yes, I read and really appreciated your article and was
> kind of heading in that direction myself until i discovered that 
there
> was an old, alternative photographic process called carbon printing,
> and so I thought that might be confusing.  
> 
> However, to both Arthur and Clayton, at least you say your work is 
ink
> or inkjet, and that's all I'm proposing.  I do, certainly, 
understand
> the marketing aspect (I too am concerned with selling and displaying
> my images) but I think that together, by showing excellent work we 
can
> raise the standards and expectations of inkjet printing.
> 
> Respectfully,
> -j-
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clayton Jones"
> <cj@c...> wrote:
> > 
> > John,
> > 
> > >why, because we are embarassed by our media?  
> > 
> > I agree with Arthur.  I use the term "Carbon Ink Print" (for a 
variety
> > of reasons explained in an article on my web site, so I won't 
repeat
> > it here) not because I'm embarrased, but because it's a simple 
truth
> > that the term "inkjet print" carries some baggage that equates to 
poor
> > quality.  I want to make a clear statement that my prints are
> > something above that.
> > 
> > As arthur said, if the term we use starts a conversation, all the
> > better.  It gives us an opportunity to explain what we're doing. 
> > Right now I have some matted and sleeved prints in a gift shop.  
In
> > each sleeve, on the back side, is a small paper with a brief
> > explanation of what a Carbon Ink print is.
> > 
> > Customer response has been very positive to the concept.  They 
seem
> > very impressed whenever I have an opportunity to explain it 
further in
> > person.
> > 
> > Is is a marketing strategy?  Of course, I'm trying to sell 
prints.  Is
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> > it dishonest?  No, not at all.  Carbon Ink Print is a perfectly
> > accurate description.
> > 
> > Regards,
> > Clayton
> > 
> > 
> > Info on black and white digital printing at    
> > http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

[Digital BW] Re: Great New Group to Join - "Giclee Business 101"

2005-04-24 by koloshor

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Seth" <seth@m...> wrote:
>  You mean stolen.
> 
> Anyway, it has become like Kleenex, Bandaid and Baggies, so it IS
> pretentious!!

Hi Seth.

I understand the reference to "Kleenex", I've used them to clean up the Giclee. And I assume "Baggies" is like "Raincoats", a slang term for a Trojan style GCD (Giclee Containment Device).

But how do "Bandaids" tie into all this? Something to do with scratches, love bites, or hickies?

Ciao!

Joe (who is having way too much fun with this thread).

[Digital BW] Re: Great New Group to Join - "Giclee Business 101"

2005-04-24 by jamesdsteele2001

My favorite observation, and I wish I had thought of it, is that giclee is to inkjet print 
what lingerie is to underware.

Jim

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "koloshor" <wiz@n...> 
wrote:
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Seth" <seth@m...> wrote:
> >  You mean stolen.
> > 
> > Anyway, it has become like Kleenex, Bandaid and Baggies, so it IS
> > pretentious!!
> 
> Hi Seth.
> 
> I understand the reference to "Kleenex", I've used them to clean up the Giclee. And I 
assume "Baggies" is like "Raincoats", a slang term for a Trojan style GCD (Giclee 
Containment Device).
> 
> But how do "Bandaids" tie into all this? Something to do with scratches, love bites, 
or hickies?
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> 
> Ciao!
> 
> Joe (who is having way too much fun with this thread).

RE: [Digital BW] Re: Great New Group to Join - "Giclee Business 101"

2005-04-24 by Seth

So..... Does that mean Epson has become the Victoria's Secret of inkjet?

Seth

==-----Original Message-----

==Behalf Of jamesdsteele2001
==Sent: Sunday, April 24, 2005 11:32 AM
==
==
==My favorite observation, and I wish I had thought of it, is 
==that giclee is to inkjet print what lingerie is to underware.
==

RE: [Digital BW] Re: Great New Group to Join - "Giclee Business 101"

2005-04-25 by Seth

It's to cover their bruised egos.  Also keeps them from licking their
wounds.

Seth 

==-----Original Message-----
==Behalf Of koloshor
==
==I understand the reference to "Kleenex", I've used them to 
==clean up the Giclee. And I assume "Baggies" is like 
=="Raincoats", a slang term for a Trojan style GCD (Giclee 
==Containment Device).
==
==But how do "Bandaids" tie into all this? Something to do with 
==scratches, love bites, or hickies?
==
=

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