Digital BW, The Print

On 4/6/2009 at 10:31 PM AlanScharf wrote:

>I argue with my photographer friends that the PRINT is the photograph,
>not the image seen on a computer. For me the print size is a critical
>aesthetic consideration. The eye moves (slightly) around a little computer
>image in an entirely different way that it moves around a real print. 
>
>Also, the junk surrounding the computer image, including the monitor
>itself, pulls the image up to the plane of the monitor screen, destroying
>the character of the photograph as a window to the beyond.
>
>Do any of you have opinions about prints vs screen images?
>
>-- Alan Scharf
>Saskatoon

>
> I argue with my photographer friends that the PRINT is the photograph, not the image seen on a computer. For me the print size is a critical aesthetic consideration. The eye moves (slightly) around a little computer image in an entirely different way that it moves around a real print. 
> 
> Also, the junk surrounding the computer image, including the monitor itself, pulls the image up to the plane of the monitor screen, destroying the character of the photograph as a window to the beyond.
> 
> Do any of you have opinions about prints vs screen images?
> 
> -- Alan Scharf
> Saskatoon
>

>> I love slides compared to monitor projections - rear projections.  
>> The old View Master was rear projection and I liked that just fine.
>
>Thats rather like claiming you prefer vinyl records to CDs. The  
>ViewMaster was a loupe/passive lighting version of a chrome on a  
>lighttable, the with the clever addition of 3D. So you are basically  
>harking back to the analog standard. I don't recall any great  
>photographers who worked in the ViewMaster format, but I do recall  
>spending hours viewing ViewMaster images!
>
>C. David Tobie
>Global Product Technology Manager
>Digital Imaging & Home Theater
>CDTobie@...
>
>
>  ----------

On 4/7/2009 at 4:01 PM Tyler Boley wrote:

>--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, C D Tobie
><CDTobie@...> wrote:
>....
>> For years photographers thought of the chrome (positive transparency,  
>> on a backlit light table) as the standard; and it was certainly  
>> unmatchable in any other format at the time, so saying "here is my  
>> glorious work, it will look lousy when you make photo prints of it, or  
>> send it to press" was a common photographer's viewpoint.
>...
>
>> ...For others, its the final print on  
>> paper, but thats mostly the printmakers...
>
>As someone with feet in both the commercial photography world, and the
>fine art photography world, I'd redefine those categories. 
>Commercial shooters, from large format ad work to 35mm Nat Geo work,
>glorified the transparency, and were generally disappointed with it's
>representation on paper and the compromises required to get it there.
>
>But in the fine art photography community I was exposed to, color or B&W,
>you weren't done until you had a successfull print. From Eugene Smith to
>Eggleston, Gibson to Sommer, the print is the photograph. It's not just a
>printmaker concern.
>
>This is not to suggest that all artists should follow this path, or that
>all fine art photographers have or should have, certainly there are many
>fascinating options.
>For me, from the beginning, I did not have a photograph until a print that
>spoke was in physical existence. I was exposed to this by several masters
>of photography early on, long before I was a "printmaker". 
>Tyler
>http://www.custom-digital.com/
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>------------------------------------
>
>Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
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>BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
>YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE “OWNER” AND
>“MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO
>YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR
>EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF
>PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE 
>“OWNER” AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN
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>OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii)
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>YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE
>PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

From: john dean <deanwork2003@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Prints versus screen images.
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, April 7, 2009, 11:33 AM











    
            I remember back in the late 70's early 80's all my friends in art school were saying that the era of paper photo was just about done. And, that video was rapidly in the process of replacing it all, being that prints were so 19th century and video so immediate. At one time I even believed it myself. Now, with the web at our fingertips, video art looks so quaint and even historic, but still prints are as collected as ever. Go figure.



The really odd thing to me is how Gursky has made over 9 million bucks from 4 copies of one type C print, and one even sold by itself for 3.3 million US. Now that's marketing. That C print even beat out Steichen. Course it was bigger .....



http://blogs. photopreneur. com/the-most- expensive- photographs- ever-sold



http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Andreas_Gursky



j




 

      

    
    
	
	 
	
	








	


	
	


      

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On Apr 7, 2009, at 1:54 PM, James Irelan <james@...> wrote:

>
> On Apr 7, 2009, at 9:02 AM, C D Tobie wrote:
>
>>
>> Thats rather like claiming you prefer vinyl records to CDs.
>>
>
>
>
>
>
> There are audiophiles who still do.  All things considered I am not
> one of them, but I do hear the areas where vinyl is still superior.
> (actually, making an apples and apples comparison between CD and vinyl
> is quite difficult...)
>
> Ansel said that the print is the performance, and the print has always
> been what has driven my interest in photography.  At the same time,
> things change, technologies change and emerge, and David, you're
> probably the one to ask:  Where do things stand with what I'd call a
> high-end, high rez version of the little digital photo frames that
> seem more of a novelty than anything else right now?  In other words,
> while I love prints, I also see that on a very good monitor, a back
> lit image can be stunning, like looking at a transparency on a light
> table, as has been mentioned.  It would seem to me that a large screen
> with, say, an Eizo quality, with a built-in hard drive, like an iMac,
> thin, easily mountable on a wall with no additional computer, would be
> a logical extension of what already exists.  Anyone who has tried to
> hang even a small collection of framed work knows how quickly finite
> wall space disappears.  Back lit images look great.  The rotation of
> images serves variety, so an entire collection could be displayed in
> the space of one framed image.  As I say, I know that small, modest-
> quality versions of this exist, and it wouldn't surprise me if larger,
> high-rez versisons, do, too.  But I'm not aware of what the status of
> them is. I could see them becoming as popular as flat screen tvs if
> the price got similar, which of course a 20x24 or larger Eizo wouldn't
> be today, at least...
>
> James
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other  
> resources as they are often being updated.
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish  
> to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting  
> this same page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages  
> to keep them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or  
> flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed  
> from the membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital  
> B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be  
> removed from the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and  
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group  
> Owner and Moderators. See “Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines” in  
> the Files section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
>
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE  
> PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE “OWNE 
> R” AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL  
> NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL,  
> CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DA 
> MAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE L 
> OSSES (EVEN IF THE  “OWNER” AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW,  
> THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH D 
> AMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIG 
> ITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTER 
> ATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF  
> ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) AN 
> Y OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

From: Debbi <corkie@...>
Subject: [Digital BW] custom mat board
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, April 7, 2009, 4:42 PM






I have an unusually long single image that I want to make into 3 
separate 11 x 8.5 prints and have matted on one mat board with three 
spaces to see the image as if it were one. I'm explaining it wrong 
I'm sure and I don't know if such a mat exists or even how to search 
for it. Any tips?
Thx
Debbi
















      

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>this needs to be custom cut.
>
>try lightimpression, or american frame . i am sure there are
>other companies that can do the same.
>
>you will need to draw up for yourself what you want. ie. deminsion 
>on all sides and between the windows.
>
>ann
>--- On Tue, 4/7/09, Debbi <corkie@...> wrote:
>
>From: Debbi <corkie@...>
>Subject: [Digital BW] custom mat board
>To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
>Date: Tuesday, April 7, 2009, 4:42 PM
>
>
>
>
>
>
>I have an unusually long single image that I want to make into 3
>separate 11 x 8.5 prints and have matted on one mat board with three
>spaces to see the image as if it were one. I'm explaining it wrong
>I'm sure and I don't know if such a mat exists or even how to search
>for it. Any tips?
>Thx
>Debbi
>

>
> I have an unusually long single image that I want to make into 3 
> separate 11 x 8.5 prints and have matted on one mat board with three 
> spaces to see the image as if it were one. I'm explaining it wrong 
> I'm sure and I don't know if such a mat exists or even how to search 
> for it. Any tips?
> Thx
> Debbi
>

On 4/8/2009 at 12:03 PM Aaron Shepard wrote:

>I don't see how either prints _or_ screen images can be seen as the 
>ultimate image. Reflecting the capabilities of today's digital 
>cameras, the default color space for Lightroom is ProPhoto, which 
>includes colors that neither of those media can display. In other 
>words, there's literally no medium that can accurately represent the 
>image. All you can get is compromises -- different ones in different 
>media. Each medium has advantages and disadvantages, but
>the image itself remains an ideal that we will never actually see.
>
>Aaron

>
> At the risk of being accused of sarcasm, what about listening to a string orchestra in a concert hall or listening to a recording of a string orchestra in a concert hall but through the tiny internal speakers of an iPhone using the concert hall ambient settings of its iPod app?
> 
> Why is this group losing its focus on what makes black & white photography so extraordinary?  The Print.
> 
> Has it been that long for so many that the inherent beauty of an exquisitely crafted silver or carbon print is now lost to memory? Or is it because the ability to craft one is becoming a lost art as so many navigate to printing B&W with color inks on Canon, Epson, HP and Lexmark printers?
> 
> 
> Jon Cone
> InkjetMall.com
>

>
> At the risk of being accused of sarcasm, what about listening to a string orchestra in a concert hall or listening to a recording of a string orchestra in a concert hall but through the tiny internal speakers of an iPhone using the concert hall ambient settings of its iPod app?
> 
> Why is this group losing its focus on what makes black & white photography so extraordinary?  The Print.
> 
> Has it been that long for so many that the inherent beauty of an exquisitely crafted silver or carbon print is now lost to memory? Or is it because the ability to craft one is becoming a lost art as so many navigate to printing B&W with color inks on Canon, Epson, HP and Lexmark printers?
> 
> 
> Jon Cone
> InkjetMall.com
>

From: Tyler Boley <tyler@...>
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Prints versus screen images.
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, April 9, 2009, 2:23 PM











    
            
            


      
      as long as communities like this list consider themselves an eccentric niche, instead of projecting outwards the way the likes of Adams and White did before us, our interests and concerns will continue to be marginalized.

Possibly to the point of extinction.

That would be a shame. By the way, Helen Levitt passed last week, another luminary.

Tyler



--- In DigitalBlackandWhit eThePrint@ yahoogroups. com, "Jon Cone" <jon@...> wrote:

>

> At the risk of being accused of sarcasm, what about listening to a string orchestra in a concert hall or listening to a recording of a string orchestra in a concert hall but through the tiny internal speakers of an iPhone using the concert hall ambient settings of its iPod app?

> 

> Why is this group losing its focus on what makes black & white photography so extraordinary?  The Print.

> 

> Has it been that long for so many that the inherent beauty of an exquisitely crafted silver or carbon print is now lost to memory? Or is it because the ability to craft one is becoming a lost art as so many navigate to printing B&W with color inks on Canon, Epson, HP and Lexmark printers?

> 

> 

> Jon Cone

> InkjetMall.com

>




 

      

    
    
	
	 
	
	








	


	
	


      

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

From: Michael Vendrell <mjvendrell2@...>
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Prints versus screen images.
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, April 9, 2009, 3:02 PM











    
            
            


      
      Yes, agreed!  With both.  The role of craft - that is the Hand of the artist (or some facsimile of such) is in my opinion an integral part of art as we have come to know and love it. We started down this rabbit hole of "good-enough as [rovided to us by machines of loving grace"  not so much with the digital revolution but when we began to accept the "conceptual" as sufficient ... Not a development I have ever been happy about or is the redefinition of art something that keeps with centuries of tradition, much less a few decades...



Michael Vendrell 



--- On Thu, 4/9/09, Tyler Boley <tyler@tylerboley. com> wrote:



From: Tyler Boley <tyler@tylerboley. com>

Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Prints versus screen images.

To: DigitalBlackandWhit eThePrint@ yahoogroups. com

Date: Thursday, April 9, 2009, 2:23 PM



as long as communities like this list consider themselves an eccentric niche, instead of projecting outwards the way the likes of Adams and White did before us, our interests and concerns will continue to be marginalized.



Possibly to the point of extinction.



That would be a shame. By the way, Helen Levitt passed last week, another luminary.



Tyler



--- In DigitalBlackandWhit eThePrint@ yahoogroups. com, "Jon Cone" <jon@...> wrote:



>



> At the risk of being accused of sarcasm, what about listening to a string orchestra in a concert hall or listening to a recording of a string orchestra in a concert hall but through the tiny internal speakers of an iPhone using the concert hall ambient settings of its iPod app?



> 



> Why is this group losing its focus on what makes black & white photography so extraordinary?  The Print.



> 



> Has it been that long for so many that the inherent beauty of an exquisitely crafted silver or carbon print is now lost to memory? Or is it because the ability to craft one is becoming a lost art as so many navigate to printing B&W with color inks on Canon, Epson, HP and Lexmark printers?



> 



> 



> Jon Cone



> InkjetMall.com



>



	

	 

	

	



	



	

	



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On 4/9/2009 at 5:22 PM Jon Cone wrote:

>At the risk of being accused of sarcasm, what about listening to a string
>orchestra in a concert hall or listening to a recording of a string
>orchestra in a concert hall but through the tiny internal speakers of an
>iPhone using the concert hall ambient settings of its iPod app?
>
>Why is this group losing its focus on what makes black & white photography
>so extraordinary?  The Print.
>
>Has it been that long for so many that the inherent beauty of an
>exquisitely crafted silver or carbon print is now lost to memory? Or is it
>because the ability to craft one is becoming a lost art as so many
>navigate to printing B&W with color inks on Canon, Epson, HP and Lexmark
>printers?
>
>
>Jon Cone
>InkjetMall.com
>
>

>
> Given what Mozart sounds like over an iPhone speaker that is a pretty  harsh judgment.  Are you saying that anyone who does not use Cone (or other carbon) inks can't be serious about making B&W prints?  Is  Epson's ABW mode really the road to perdition and ruin?
> 
> Steve
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Jon Cone" <jon@> wrote:
> >
> > At the risk of being accused of sarcasm, what about listening to a string orchestra in a concert hall or listening to a recording of a string orchestra in a concert hall but through the tiny internal speakers of an iPhone using the concert hall ambient settings of its iPod app?
> > 
> > Why is this group losing its focus on what makes black & white photography so extraordinary?  The Print.
> > 
> > Has it been that long for so many that the inherent beauty of an exquisitely crafted silver or carbon print is now lost to memory? Or is it because the ability to craft one is becoming a lost art as so many navigate to printing B&W with color inks on Canon, Epson, HP and Lexmark printers?
> > 
> > 
> > Jon Cone
> > InkjetMall.com
> >
>

>
> 
> On Apr 9, 2009, at 3:19 PM, Stephen Kobrin wrote:
> 
> > Given what Mozart sounds like over an iPhone speaker that is a  
> > pretty  harsh judgment.  Are you saying that anyone who does not use  
> > Cone (or other carbon) inks can't be serious about making B&W  
> > prints?  Is  Epson's ABW mode really the road to perdition and ruin?
> 
> Thus says the Quadtone evangelist... <G>
> 
> C. David Tobie
> Global Product Technology Manager
> Digital Imaging & Home Theater
> CDTobie@...
> 
> 
>   ----------
> 
> 
> 
> Datacolor
> www.datacolor.com/Spyder3
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

On Apr 9, 2009, at 5:45 PM, "Jon Cone" <jon@...> wrote:

> No, using Epson inks to make B&W is the road to color shifted images  
> in a short time.  :)
>
> What I was referring to was looking at prints or looking at computer  
> images. The original discussion was about prints versus screen images.
>
> So the comparison was to listening to live music or a recording of  
> live music on an iPhone... a stretch I admit. even a tad  
> sarcastic...  The print is always what it is. It is the print. But  
> if we begin to look at images on displays - they will end up one day  
> on iPhones. A display is what it is - a moving target.
>
> Jon
>
>
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen  
> Kobrin" <kobrins@...> wrote:
>>
>> Given what Mozart sounds like over an iPhone speaker that is a  
>> pretty  harsh judgment.  Are you saying that anyone who does not  
>> use Cone (or other carbon) inks can't be serious about making B&W  
>> prints?  Is  Epson's ABW mode really the road to perdition and ruin?
>>
>> Steve
>>
>> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Jon Cone"  
>> <jon@> wrote:
>>>
>>> At the risk of being accused of sarcasm, what about listening to a  
>>> string orchestra in a concert hall or listening to a recording of  
>>> a string orchestra in a concert hall but through the tiny internal  
>>> speakers of an iPhone using the concert hall ambient settings of  
>>> its iPod app?
>>>
>>> Why is this group losing its focus on what makes black & white  
>>> photography so extraordinary?  The Print.
>>>
>>> Has it been that long for so many that the inherent beauty of an  
>>> exquisitely crafted silver or carbon print is now lost to memory?  
>>> Or is it because the ability to craft one is becoming a lost art  
>>> as so many navigate to printing B&W with color inks on Canon,  
>>> Epson, HP and Lexmark printers?
>>>
>>>
>>> Jon Cone
>>> InkjetMall.com
>>>
>>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other  
> resources as they are often being updated.
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish  
> to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting  
> this same page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages  
> to keep them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or  
> flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed  
> from the membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital  
> B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be  
> removed from the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and  
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group  
> Owner and Moderators. See “Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines” in  
> the Files section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
>
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE  
> PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE “OWNE 
> R” AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL  
> NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL,  
> CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DA 
> MAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE L 
> OSSES (EVEN IF THE  “OWNER” AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW,  
> THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH D 
> AMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIG 
> ITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTER 
> ATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF  
> ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) AN 
> Y OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

>
> The silver print is still my standard. But I can't have everything at all times  :  ) I was into lamp blacks and india type inks way before I found photography, so I accept what it can do without any real qualms. Inks are just a old friend in a different process.
> 
> gar

On 4/10/2009 at 1:20 AM john dean wrote:

>Well I wouldn't lump the HPZ in the same hole as Epson and Canon for
>black and white high end prints. I've been doing some gelatin silver
>neutral knock offs this week with Innova Satin fiber. With the gloss
>enhancer channel and the three gray channels out of grayscale (no color
>inks used) it pretty much kicks ass. The Hannemuhle Photorag Baryta is
>great also.
>
>Now should HP have added 4 grays to this 12 channel set instead of the
>green or the blue, hell yes, hell yes. Hopefully one day they will wake up
>and do something like that, but I won't hold my breath.
>
>Jon's Piezography on Matte papers beats everything however as an world in
>itself, especially in the high values with ultra subtle rendition. He
>deserves a medal for that and I hope they will be available for years to
>come.
>
>john

>
> Gosh, I've been doing it as long as there gave been printers with two  
> grays in them, on a wide range of media, some matted and framed, some  
> not, and I've never seen a single one of my prints turn red, or any  
> other color. Mayhaps you overstate the threat?
> 
> C. D. Tobie
> Global Product Technology Mngr.
> Digital Imaging & Home Theater
> Datacolor.com
> CDTobie@...
> 
> On Apr 9, 2009, at 5:45 PM, "Jon Cone" <jon@...> wrote:
> 
> > No, using Epson inks to make B&W is the road to color shifted images  
> > in a short time.  :)
> >
> > What I was referring to was looking at prints or looking at computer  
> > images. The original discussion was about prints versus screen images.
> >
> > So the comparison was to listening to live music or a recording of  
> > live music on an iPhone... a stretch I admit. even a tad  
> > sarcastic...  The print is always what it is. It is the print. But  
> > if we begin to look at images on displays - they will end up one day  
> > on iPhones. A display is what it is - a moving target.
> >
> > Jon
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen  
> > Kobrin" <kobrins@> wrote:
> >>
> >> Given what Mozart sounds like over an iPhone speaker that is a  
> >> pretty  harsh judgment.  Are you saying that anyone who does not  
> >> use Cone (or other carbon) inks can't be serious about making B&W  
> >> prints?  Is  Epson's ABW mode really the road to perdition and ruin?
> >>
> >> Steve
> >>
> >> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Jon Cone"  
> >> <jon@> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> At the risk of being accused of sarcasm, what about listening to a  
> >>> string orchestra in a concert hall or listening to a recording of  
> >>> a string orchestra in a concert hall but through the tiny internal  
> >>> speakers of an iPhone using the concert hall ambient settings of  
> >>> its iPod app?
> >>>
> >>> Why is this group losing its focus on what makes black & white  
> >>> photography so extraordinary?  The Print.
> >>>
> >>> Has it been that long for so many that the inherent beauty of an  
> >>> exquisitely crafted silver or carbon print is now lost to memory?  
> >>> Or is it because the ability to craft one is becoming a lost art  
> >>> as so many navigate to printing B&W with color inks on Canon,  
> >>> Epson, HP and Lexmark printers?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Jon Cone
> >>> InkjetMall.com
> >>>

>
> Gosh, I've been doing it as long as there gave been printers with two  
> grays in them, on a wide range of media, some matted and framed, some  
> not, and I've never seen a single one of my prints turn red, or any  
> other color. Mayhaps you overstate the threat?
> 
> C. D. Tobie
> Global Product Technology Mngr.
> Digital Imaging & Home Theater
> Datacolor.com
> CDTobie@...
> 
> On Apr 9, 2009, at 5:45 PM, "Jon Cone" <jon@...> wrote:
> 
> > No, using Epson inks to make B&W is the road to color shifted images  
> > in a short time.  :)
> >
> > What I was referring to was looking at prints or looking at computer  
> > images. The original discussion was about prints versus screen images.
> >
> > So the comparison was to listening to live music or a recording of  
> > live music on an iPhone... a stretch I admit. even a tad  
> > sarcastic...  The print is always what it is. It is the print. But  
> > if we begin to look at images on displays - they will end up one day  
> > on iPhones. A display is what it is - a moving target.
> >
> > Jon
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen  
> > Kobrin" <kobrins@> wrote:
> >>
> >> Given what Mozart sounds like over an iPhone speaker that is a  
> >> pretty  harsh judgment.  Are you saying that anyone who does not  
> >> use Cone (or other carbon) inks can't be serious about making B&W  
> >> prints?  Is  Epson's ABW mode really the road to perdition and ruin?
> >>
> >> Steve
> >>
> >> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Jon Cone"  
> >> <jon@> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> At the risk of being accused of sarcasm, what about listening to a  
> >>> string orchestra in a concert hall or listening to a recording of  
> >>> a string orchestra in a concert hall but through the tiny internal  
> >>> speakers of an iPhone using the concert hall ambient settings of  
> >>> its iPod app?
> >>>
> >>> Why is this group losing its focus on what makes black & white  
> >>> photography so extraordinary?  The Print.
> >>>
> >>> Has it been that long for so many that the inherent beauty of an  
> >>> exquisitely crafted silver or carbon print is now lost to memory?  
> >>> Or is it because the ability to craft one is becoming a lost art  
> >>> as so many navigate to printing B&W with color inks on Canon,  
> >>> Epson, HP and Lexmark printers?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Jon Cone
> >>> InkjetMall.com

>
> Jon's Piezography on Matte papers beats everything however as an world in itself, especially in the high values with ultra subtle rendition. He deserves a medal for that and I hope they will be available for years to come.
> 
> john 
> 
>

>
> David,
> 
> Mayhaps not, but I would not suspect that you would notice any changes in your work in 5 years. But, it's not black and white like you are trying to make it either. (pun intended).  The threat is relative to the intent of the photographer and the perceived value of their work. For others it doesn't really matter two pickles.

On Apr 10, 2009, at 1:19 PM, "Tyler Boley" <tyler@...> wrote:

> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, C D Tobie  
> <CDTobie@...> wrote:
> ...
>> Actually, one of Epson's more bizarre products was a large screen TV
> ...
>
> I have one, 47". Epson gave it to me as a prize in a print  
> competition. Old story for some here.
>
> Their comments-
>
> congratulations?
> no
>
> Nice work?
> no
>
> Beautiful prints?
> no
>
> I see you are not using our ink or paper?
> Oh yeah, you bet, right off the bat.
> Not even a "hi I'm Tom".
>
> The next year they changed the rules.
>
> We like the big HDTV though, really.
> "Jeff Beck performing this week…Live at Ronnie Scott's" on Blue Ray, 
>  absolute killer.
>
> Tyler
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other  
> resources as they are often being updated.
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish  
> to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting  
> this same page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
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> to keep them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or  
> flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed  
> from the membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital  
> B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be  
> removed from the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and  
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> Owner and Moderators. See “Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines” in  
> the Files section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
>
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE  
> PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE “OWNE 
> R” AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL  
> NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL,  
> CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DA 
> MAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE L 
> OSSES (EVEN IF THE  “OWNER” AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW,  
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> AMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIG 
> ITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTER 
> ATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF  
> ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) AN 
> Y OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

>
> 
> On Apr 10, 2009, at 1:40 AM, Jon Cone wrote:
> 
> > I'm obviously going to be the Charleton Heston of b&w printing.  A  
> > weird thought but none the less satisfying to know.  ROFL
> 
> Is this a Moses on the Mount reference, or an NRA one? <G>
> 
> C. David Tobie
> Global Product Technology Manager
> Digital Imaging & Home Theater
> CDTobie@...
> 
> 
>   ----------
> 
> 
> 
> Datacolor
> www.datacolor.com/Spyder3
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

On Apr 11, 2009, at 1:01 PM, "Jon Cone" <jon@...> wrote:

> lol  :)
>
> I meant the NRA Heston with the thought of a carbon b&w print being  
> pried from my dead cold hand.
>
> ...but Moses on the Mount works, too. Perfect time of year to  
> remember Moses.
>
> Thou shalt not mix carbon with color inks.
>
> Thou shalt not need wait more than 10-30 years before your ABW  
> prints turn red (or blue if you select the "neutral").
>
> Thou shalt not mind David Tobie.  ;)
>
> Jon
>
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, C D Tobie  
> <CDTobie@...> wrote:
>>
>>
>> On Apr 10, 2009, at 1:40 AM, Jon Cone wrote:
>>
>>> I'm obviously going to be the Charleton Heston of b&w printing.  A
>>> weird thought but none the less satisfying to know.  ROFL
>>
>> Is this a Moses on the Mount reference, or an NRA one? <G>
>>
>> C. David Tobie
>> Global Product Technology Manager
>> Digital Imaging & Home Theater
>> CDTobie@...
>>
>>
>>  ----------
>>
>>
>>
>> Datacolor
>> www.datacolor.com/Spyder3
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other  
> resources as they are often being updated.
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish  
> to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting  
> this same page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages  
> to keep them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or  
> flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed  
> from the membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital  
> B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be  
> removed from the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and  
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group  
> Owner and Moderators. See “Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines” in  
> the Files section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
>
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE  
> PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE “OWNE 
> R” AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL  
> NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL,  
> CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DA 
> MAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE L 
> OSSES (EVEN IF THE  “OWNER” AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW,  
> THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH D 
> AMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIG 
> ITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTER 
> ATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF  
> ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) AN 
> Y OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

>
> But wasn't there something about not worshipping graven images in  
> there as well?
> 
> C. D. Tobie
> Global Product Technology Mngr.
> Digital Imaging & Home Theater
> Datacolor.com
> CDTobie@...
> 
> On Apr 11, 2009, at 1:01 PM, "Jon Cone" <jon@...> wrote:
> 
> > lol  :)
> >
> > I meant the NRA Heston with the thought of a carbon b&w print being  
> > pried from my dead cold hand.
> >
> > ...but Moses on the Mount works, too. Perfect time of year to  
> > remember Moses.
> >
> > Thou shalt not mix carbon with color inks.
> >
> > Thou shalt not need wait more than 10-30 years before your ABW  
> > prints turn red (or blue if you select the "neutral").
> >
> > Thou shalt not mind David Tobie.  ;)
> >
> > Jon
> >
> >
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, C D Tobie  
> > <CDTobie@> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> On Apr 10, 2009, at 1:40 AM, Jon Cone wrote:
> >>
> >>> I'm obviously going to be the Charleton Heston of b&w printing.  A
> >>> weird thought but none the less satisfying to know.  ROFL
> >>
> >> Is this a Moses on the Mount reference, or an NRA one? <G>
> >>
> >> C. David Tobie
> >> Global Product Technology Manager
> >> Digital Imaging & Home Theater
> >> CDTobie@
> >>
> >>
> >>  ----------
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Datacolor
> >> www.datacolor.com/Spyder3
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other  
> > resources as they are often being updated.
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >
> > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish  
> > to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting  
> > this same page.
> >
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages  
> > to keep them short.
> > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or  
> > flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed  
> > from the membership without notice.
> > - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital  
> > B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be  
> > removed from the membership.
> > - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and  
> > guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group  
> > Owner and Moderators. See “Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines” in  
> > the Files section:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> >
> > BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE  
> > PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE “OWNE 
> > R” AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL  
> > NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL,  
> > CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DA 
> > MAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE L 
> > OSSES (EVEN IF THE  “OWNER” AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW,  
> > THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH D 
> > AMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIG 
> > ITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTER 
> > ATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF  
> > ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) AN 
> > Y OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>

On Apr 11, 2009, at 11:23 PM, "Jon Cone" <jon@...> wrote:

> Yes. I am sorry. David, stop worshiping those graven images.
>
> If it makes you feel better, I will do it as Heston.
>
> David, thou shalt not worship graven images, especially the blue one.
>
> Jon
>
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Cdtobie  
> <CDTobie@...> wrote:
>>
>> But wasn't there something about not worshipping graven images in
>> there as well?
>>
>> C. D. Tobie
>> Global Product Technology Mngr.
>> Digital Imaging & Home Theater
>> Datacolor.com
>> CDTobie@...
>>
>> On Apr 11, 2009, at 1:01 PM, "Jon Cone" <jon@...> wrote:
>>
>>> lol  :)
>>>
>>> I meant the NRA Heston with the thought of a carbon b&w print being
>>> pried from my dead cold hand.
>>>
>>> ...but Moses on the Mount works, too. Perfect time of year to
>>> remember Moses.
>>>
>>> Thou shalt not mix carbon with color inks.
>>>
>>> Thou shalt not need wait more than 10-30 years before your ABW
>>> prints turn red (or blue if you select the "neutral").
>>>
>>> Thou shalt not mind David Tobie.  ;)
>>>
>>> Jon
>>>
>>>
>>> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, C D Tobie
>>> <CDTobie@> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Apr 10, 2009, at 1:40 AM, Jon Cone wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I'm obviously going to be the Charleton Heston of b&w printing.  A
>>>>> weird thought but none the less satisfying to know.  ROFL
>>>>
>>>> Is this a Moses on the Mount reference, or an NRA one? <G>
>>>>
>>>> C. David Tobie
>>>> Global Product Technology Manager
>>>> Digital Imaging & Home Theater
>>>> CDTobie@
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----------
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Datacolor
>>>> www.datacolor.com/Spyder3
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------
>>>
>>> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other
>>> resources as they are often being updated.
>>>
>>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>>>
>>> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish
>>> to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting
>>> this same page.
>>>
>>> Please follow these basic guidelines:
>>> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages
>>> to keep them short.
>>> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
>>> flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed
>>> from the membership without notice.
>>> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital
>>> B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be
>>> removed from the membership.
>>> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
>>> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group
>>> Owner and Moderators. See “Group Topic, Rules and  
>>> Guidelines” in
>>> the Files section:
>>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
>>>
>>> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE
>>> PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE ‚ 
>>> ÄúOWNE
>>> R” AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT  
>>> YAHOO GROUP SHALL
>>> NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL,
>>> CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DA
>>> MAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE L
>>> OSSES (EVEN IF THE  “OWNER” AND  
>>> “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW,
>>> THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH D
>>> AMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIG
>>> ITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTER
>>> ATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF
>>> ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) AN
>>> Y OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other  
> resources as they are often being updated.
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish  
> to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting  
> this same page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages  
> to keep them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or  
> flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed  
> from the membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital  
> B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be  
> removed from the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and  
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group  
> Owner and Moderators. See ìGroup Topic, Rules and Guidelinesî in the 
>  Files section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
>
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE  
> PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE ìOWNE 
> Rî AND ìMODERATORSî OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT  
> BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONS 
> EQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGE 
> S FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSE 
> S (EVEN IF THE  ìOWNERî AND ìMODERATORSî OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT  
> YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), R 
> ESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, T 
> HE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF Y 
> OUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD  
> PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MA 
> TTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

>
> Actually, I was thinking of the Cult of the Carbon Image... There is  
> much less cult worship in general printing.
> 
> C. D. Tobie
> Global Product Technology Mngr.
> Digital Imaging & Home Theater
> Datacolor.com
> CDTobie@...
> 
> On Apr 11, 2009, at 11:23 PM, "Jon Cone" <jon@...> wrote:
> 
> > Yes. I am sorry. David, stop worshiping those graven images.
> >
> > If it makes you feel better, I will do it as Heston.
> >
> > David, thou shalt not worship graven images, especially the blue one.
> >
> > Jon
> >
> >
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Cdtobie  
> > <CDTobie@> wrote:
> >>
> >> But wasn't there something about not worshipping graven images in
> >> there as well?
> >>
> >> C. D. Tobie
> >> Global Product Technology Mngr.
> >> Digital Imaging & Home Theater
> >> Datacolor.com
> >> CDTobie@
> >>
> >> On Apr 11, 2009, at 1:01 PM, "Jon Cone" <jon@> wrote:
> >>
> >>> lol  :)
> >>>
> >>> I meant the NRA Heston with the thought of a carbon b&w print being
> >>> pried from my dead cold hand.
> >>>
> >>> ...but Moses on the Mount works, too. Perfect time of year to
> >>> remember Moses.
> >>>
> >>> Thou shalt not mix carbon with color inks.
> >>>
> >>> Thou shalt not need wait more than 10-30 years before your ABW
> >>> prints turn red (or blue if you select the "neutral").
> >>>
> >>> Thou shalt not mind David Tobie.  ;)
> >>>
> >>> Jon
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, C D Tobie
> >>> <CDTobie@> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On Apr 10, 2009, at 1:40 AM, Jon Cone wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> I'm obviously going to be the Charleton Heston of b&w printing.  A
> >>>>> weird thought but none the less satisfying to know.  ROFL
> >>>>
> >>>> Is this a Moses on the Mount reference, or an NRA one? <G>
> >>>>
> >>>> C. David Tobie
> >>>> Global Product Technology Manager
> >>>> Digital Imaging & Home Theater
> >>>> CDTobie@
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> ----------
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Datacolor
> >>>> www.datacolor.com/Spyder3
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> ------------------------------------
> >>>
> >>> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other
> >>> resources as they are often being updated.
> >>>
> >>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >>>
> >>> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish
> >>> to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting
> >>> this same page.
> >>>
> >>> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> >>> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages
> >>> to keep them short.
> >>> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
> >>> flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed
> >>> from the membership without notice.
> >>> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital
> >>> B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be
> >>> removed from the membership.
> >>> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
> >>> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group
> >>> Owner and Moderators. See “Group Topic, Rules and  
> >>> Guidelines” in
> >>> the Files section:
> >>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> >>>
> >>> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE
> >>> PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE ‚ 
> >>> ÄúOWNE
> >>> R” AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT  
> >>> YAHOO GROUP SHALL
> >>> NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL,
> >>> CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DA
> >>> MAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE L
> >>> OSSES (EVEN IF THE  “OWNER” AND  
> >>> “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW,
> >>> THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH D
> >>> AMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIG
> >>> ITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTER
> >>> ATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF
> >>> ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) AN
> >>> Y OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other  
> > resources as they are often being updated.
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >
> > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish  
> > to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting  
> > this same page.
> >
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages  
> > to keep them short.
> > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or  
> > flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed  
> > from the membership without notice.
> > - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital  
> > B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be  
> > removed from the membership.
> > - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and  
> > guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group  
> > Owner and Moderators. See ìGroup Topic, Rules and Guidelinesî in the 
> >  Files section:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> >
> > BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE  
> > PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE ìOWNE 
> > Rî AND ìMODERATORSî OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT  
> > BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONS 
> > EQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGE 
> > S FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSE 
> > S (EVEN IF THE  ìOWNERî AND ìMODERATORSî OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT  
> > YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), R 
> > ESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, T 
> > HE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF Y 
> > OUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD  
> > PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MA 
> > TTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>

>
> I'm new to this group but starting to follow this discussion pending  
> some purchase decisions. It seems to me that if there are apparent  
> color shifts even remotely that rapidly in the "neutral" Epson K2 or  
> K3 inks, that it's necessarily the case that there are shifts in the  
> remaining color pigment inks as well. Thus, with the Cone Color inks  
> the statement that they are 100% pigment vs. presumably partial dye  
> content in the Epson inks could be crucial, all else being equal (if  
> it ever is!). Is this consistent with any other's experience?
> 
> Jerry D.
> 
> 
> 
> On Apr 10, 2009, at 10:25 AM, john dean wrote:
> 
> >
> >
> > I've actually seen these Ultrachrome K2 black and white prints  
> > shift within the span of a week in an exhibition where fairly  
> > bright daylight was present. Not ultra bright, but a bit over 450  
> > lux. I'm not kidding and they were framed behind glass. It was a  
> > big embarrassment for the photographer. I'm glad I didn't print  
> > them. But I did spray ALL the Ultrachrome prints I did at that time  
> > with with a uv coating and always used QTR to reduce the color  
> > content. But it is always there to some degree when you are dealing  
> > with brown "gray" inks and trying to achieve neutral color in the  
> > whole range.
> >
> > I have also seen tests I've had around for a few years on a  
> > bulletin board shift, usually toward cyan as the light magenta  
> > goes, or toward blue. No chemicals or pollution in my studio. Of  
> > course these were not behind glass, or sprayed, but to me that  
> > shouldn't be necessary.
> >
> > john
> >
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Jon Cone"  
> > <jon@> wrote:
> > >
> > > David,
> > >
> > > Mayhaps not, but I would not suspect that you would notice any  
> > changes in your work in 5 years. But, it's not black and white like  
> > you are trying to make it either. (pun intended). The threat is  
> > relative to the intent of the photographer and the perceived value  
> > of their work. For others it doesn't really matter two pickles.
> >
> >
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

On Apr 12, 2009, at 11:53 AM, "Jon Cone" <jon@...> wrote:

> David,
>
> This is not a "general printing" users group.
>
> Jon
>
>
>
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Cdtobie  
> <CDTobie@...> wrote:
>>
>> Actually, I was thinking of the Cult of the Carbon Image... There is
>> much less cult worship in general printing.
>>
>> C. D. Tobie
>> Global Product Technology Mngr.
>> Digital Imaging & Home Theater
>> Datacolor.com
>> CDTobie@...
>>
>> On Apr 11, 2009, at 11:23 PM, "Jon Cone" <jon@...> wrote:
>>
>>> Yes. I am sorry. David, stop worshiping those graven images.
>>>
>>> If it makes you feel better, I will do it as Heston.
>>>
>>> David, thou shalt not worship graven images, especially the blue  
>>> one.
>>>
>>> Jon
>>>
>>>
>>> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Cdtobie
>>> <CDTobie@> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> But wasn't there something about not worshipping graven images in
>>>> there as well?
>>>>
>>>> C. D. Tobie
>>>> Global Product Technology Mngr.
>>>> Digital Imaging & Home Theater
>>>> Datacolor.com
>>>> CDTobie@
>>>>
>>>> On Apr 11, 2009, at 1:01 PM, "Jon Cone" <jon@> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> lol  :)
>>>>>
>>>>> I meant the NRA Heston with the thought of a carbon b&w print  
>>>>> being
>>>>> pried from my dead cold hand.
>>>>>
>>>>> ...but Moses on the Mount works, too. Perfect time of year to
>>>>> remember Moses.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thou shalt not mix carbon with color inks.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thou shalt not need wait more than 10-30 years before your ABW
>>>>> prints turn red (or blue if you select the "neutral").
>>>>>
>>>>> Thou shalt not mind David Tobie.  ;)
>>>>>
>>>>> Jon
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, C D Tobie
>>>>> <CDTobie@> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Apr 10, 2009, at 1:40 AM, Jon Cone wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm obviously going to be the Charleton Heston of b&w  
>>>>>>> printing.  A
>>>>>>> weird thought but none the less satisfying to know.  ROFL
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Is this a Moses on the Mount reference, or an NRA one? <G>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> C. David Tobie
>>>>>> Global Product Technology Manager
>>>>>> Digital Imaging & Home Theater
>>>>>> CDTobie@
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----------
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Datacolor
>>>>>> www.datacolor.com/Spyder3
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other
>>>>> resources as they are often being updated.
>>>>>
>>>>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>>>>>
>>>>> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you  
>>>>> wish
>>>>> to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by  
>>>>> visiting
>>>>> this same page.
>>>>>
>>>>> Please follow these basic guidelines:
>>>>> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages
>>>>> to keep them short.
>>>>> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
>>>>> flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed
>>>>> from the membership without notice.
>>>>> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of  
>>>>> digital
>>>>> B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be
>>>>> removed from the membership.
>>>>> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules  
>>>>> and
>>>>> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group
>>>>> Owner and Moderators. See “Group Topic, Rules and
>>>>> Guidelines” in
>>>>> the Files section:
>>>>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
>>>>>
>>>>> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE
>>>>> PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT T 
>>>>> HE ‚
>>>>> ÄúOWNE
>>>>> R” AND “MODERATORS”  
>>>>> OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
>>>>> YAHOO GROUP SHALL
>>>>> NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL,  
>>>>> SPECIAL,
>>>>> CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED  
>>>>> TO, DA
>>>>> MAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER  
>>>>> INTANGIBLE L
>>>>> OSSES (EVEN IF THE  “OWNER” AND
>>>>> “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW,
>>>>> THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF  
>>>>> SUCH D
>>>>> AMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE  
>>>>> DIG
>>>>> ITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR  
>>>>> ALTER
>>>>> ATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT  
>>>>> OF
>>>>> ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR  
>>>>> (iv) AN
>>>>> Y OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
>>>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------
>>>
>>> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other
>>> resources as they are often being updated.
>>>
>>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>>>
>>> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish
>>> to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting
>>> this same page.
>>>
>>> Please follow these basic guidelines:
>>> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages
>>> to keep them short.
>>> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
>>> flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed
>>> from the membership without notice.
>>> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital
>>> B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be
>>> removed from the membership.
>>> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
>>> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group
>>> Owner and Moderators. See ìGroup Topic, Rules and Guidelinesî  
>>> in the
>>> Files section:
>>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
>>>
>>> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE
>>> PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE Ã 
>>> ¬OWNE
>>> Rî AND ìMODERATORSî OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP  
>>> SHALL NOT
>>> BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONS
>>> EQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGE
>>> S FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSE
>>> S (EVEN IF THE  ìOWNERî AND ìMODERATORSî OF DIGITAL BW,  
>>> THE PRINT
>>> YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), R
>>> ESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, T
>>> HE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF Y
>>> OUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD
>>> PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MA
>>> TTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other  
> resources as they are often being updated.
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish  
> to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting  
> this same page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages  
> to keep them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or  
> flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed  
> from the membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital  
> B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be  
> removed from the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and  
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group  
> Owner and Moderators. See “Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines” in  
> the Files section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
>
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE  
> PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE “OWNE 
> R” AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL  
> NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL,  
> CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DA 
> MAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE L 
> OSSES (EVEN IF THE  “OWNER” AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW,  
> THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH D 
> AMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIG 
> ITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTER 
> ATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF  
> ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) AN 
> Y OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

On Apr 12, 2009, at 4:43 PM, "john dean" <deanwork2003@...> wrote:

>
> The title of this group is "Digital Black and White, The Print".   
> And since senior Cone happens to be a master in this arena, and  
> actually helped significantly in terms of pushing this technology  
> forward in the last decade to where is now,... and Tobie a "Data  
> Color" salesman, I think it is fairly easy to conceive who belongs  
> here and who doesn't. It isn't rocket science, but it is Digital  
> Black and White printing this site was designed to promote.
>
> john
>
>
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Cdtobie  
> <CDTobie@...> wrote:
>>
>> Not from your point of view... But many others here are general print
>> users who have an interest in B&W.
>>
>> C. D. Tobie
>> Global Product Technology Mngr.
>> Digital Imaging & Home Theater
>> Datacolor.com
>> CDTobie@...
>>
>> On Apr 12, 2009, at 11:53 AM, "Jon Cone" <jon@...> wrote:
>>
>>> David,
>>>
>>> This is not a "general printing" users group.
>>>
>>> Jon
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Cdtobie
>>> <CDTobie@> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Actually, I was thinking of the Cult of the Carbon Image... There  
>>>> is
>>>> much less cult worship in general printing.
>>>>
>>>> C. D. Tobie
>>>> Global Product Technology Mngr.
>>>> Digital Imaging & Home Theater
>>>> Datacolor.com
>>>> CDTobie@
>>>>
>>>> On Apr 11, 2009, at 11:23 PM, "Jon Cone" <jon@> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Yes. I am sorry. David, stop worshiping those graven images.
>>>>>
>>>>> If it makes you feel better, I will do it as Heston.
>>>>>
>>>>> David, thou shalt not worship graven images, especially the blue
>>>>> one.
>>>>>
>>>>> Jon
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Cdtobie
>>>>> <CDTobie@> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But wasn't there something about not worshipping graven images in
>>>>>> there as well?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> C. D. Tobie
>>>>>> Global Product Technology Mngr.
>>>>>> Digital Imaging & Home Theater
>>>>>> Datacolor.com
>>>>>> CDTobie@
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Apr 11, 2009, at 1:01 PM, "Jon Cone" <jon@> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> lol  :)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I meant the NRA Heston with the thought of a carbon b&w print
>>>>>>> being
>>>>>>> pried from my dead cold hand.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ...but Moses on the Mount works, too. Perfect time of year to
>>>>>>> remember Moses.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thou shalt not mix carbon with color inks.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thou shalt not need wait more than 10-30 years before your ABW
>>>>>>> prints turn red (or blue if you select the "neutral").
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thou shalt not mind David Tobie.  ;)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Jon
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, C D Tobie
>>>>>>> <CDTobie@> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Apr 10, 2009, at 1:40 AM, Jon Cone wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I'm obviously going to be the Charleton Heston of b&w
>>>>>>>>> printing.  A
>>>>>>>>> weird thought but none the less satisfying to know.  ROFL
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Is this a Moses on the Mount reference, or an NRA one? <G>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> C. David Tobie
>>>>>>>> Global Product Technology Manager
>>>>>>>> Digital Imaging & Home Theater
>>>>>>>> CDTobie@
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ----------
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Datacolor
>>>>>>>> www.datacolor.com/Spyder3
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ------------------------------------
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other
>>>>>>> resources as they are often being updated.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you
>>>>>>> wish
>>>>>>> to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by
>>>>>>> visiting
>>>>>>> this same page.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Please follow these basic guidelines:
>>>>>>> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier  
>>>>>>> messages
>>>>>>> to keep them short.
>>>>>>> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
>>>>>>> flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be  
>>>>>>> removed
>>>>>>> from the membership without notice.
>>>>>>> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of
>>>>>>> digital
>>>>>>> B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be
>>>>>>> removed from the membership.
>>>>>>> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the  
>>>>>>> group
>>>>>>> Owner and Moderators. See  
>>>>>>> °√É‚Äû√ɬ∫Group Topic, Rules and
>>>>>>> Guidelines” in
>>>>>>> the Files section:
>>>>>>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/ 
>>>>>>> files/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW,  
>>>>>>> THE
>>>>>>> PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT T
>>>>>>> HE ‚
>>>>>>> ÄúOWNE
>>>>>>> R‚Äù AND  
>>>>>>> °√É‚Äû√ɬ∫MODERATORS√¢‚Ǩ≈°√ 
>>>>>>> É‚Äû√ɬπ
>>>>>>> OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
>>>>>>> YAHOO GROUP SHALL
>>>>>>> NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL,
>>>>>>> SPECIAL,
>>>>>>> CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED
>>>>>>> TO, DA
>>>>>>> MAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER
>>>>>>> INTANGIBLE L
>>>>>>> OSSES (EVEN IF THE   
>>>>>>> °√É‚Äû√ɬ∫OWNER√¢‚Ǩ≈°√É‚Äû 
>>>>>>> ù AND
>>>>>>> ‚ÄúMODERATORS 
>>>>>>> °√É‚Äû√ɬπ OF DIGITAL BW,
>>>>>>> THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF
>>>>>>> SUCH D
>>>>>>> AMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE
>>>>>>> DIG
>>>>>>> ITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR
>>>>>>> ALTER
>>>>>>> ATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT
>>>>>>> OF
>>>>>>> ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR
>>>>>>> (iv) AN
>>>>>>> Y OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO  
>>>>>>> GROUP.
>>>>>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other
>>>>> resources as they are often being updated.
>>>>>
>>>>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>>>>>
>>>>> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you  
>>>>> wish
>>>>> to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by  
>>>>> visiting
>>>>> this same page.
>>>>>
>>>>> Please follow these basic guidelines:
>>>>> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages
>>>>> to keep them short.
>>>>> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
>>>>> flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed
>>>>> from the membership without notice.
>>>>> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of  
>>>>> digital
>>>>> B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be
>>>>> removed from the membership.
>>>>> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules  
>>>>> and
>>>>> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group
>>>>> Owner and Moderators. See ìGroup Topic, Rules and Guideli 
>>>>> nesî
>>>>> in the
>>>>> Files section:
>>>>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
>>>>>
>>>>> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE
>>>>> PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT  
>>>>> THE Ã
>>>>> ¬OWNE
>>>>> Rî AND ìMODERATORSî OF DIGITAL BW, THE  
>>>>> PRINT YAHOO GROUP
>>>>> SHALL NOT
>>>>> BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL,  
>>>>> CONS
>>>>> EQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO,  
>>>>> DAMAGE
>>>>> S FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE  
>>>>> LOSSE
>>>>> S (EVEN IF THE  ìOWNERî AND  
>>>>> ìMODERATORSî OF DIGITAL BW,
>>>>> THE PRINT
>>>>> YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH  
>>>>> DAMAGES), R
>>>>> ESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL  
>>>>> BW, T
>>>>> HE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION  
>>>>> OF Y
>>>>> OUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY  
>>>>> THIRD
>>>>> PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY  
>>>>> OTHER MA
>>>>> TTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
>>>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------
>>>
>>> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other
>>> resources as they are often being updated.
>>>
>>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>>>
>>> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish
>>> to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting
>>> this same page.
>>>
>>> Please follow these basic guidelines:
>>> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages
>>> to keep them short.
>>> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
>>> flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed
>>> from the membership without notice.
>>> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital
>>> B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be
>>> removed from the membership.
>>> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
>>> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group
>>> Owner and Moderators. See “Group Topic, Rules and  
>>> Guidelines” in
>>> the Files section:
>>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
>>>
>>> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE
>>> PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE ‚ 
>>> ÄúOWNE
>>> R” AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT  
>>> YAHOO GROUP SHALL
>>> NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL,
>>> CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DA
>>> MAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE L
>>> OSSES (EVEN IF THE  “OWNER” AND  
>>> “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW,
>>> THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH D
>>> AMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIG
>>> ITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTER
>>> ATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF
>>> ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) AN
>>> Y OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other  
> resources as they are often being updated.
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> ESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, T 
> HE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF Y 
> OUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD  
> PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MA 
> TTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

> I don't have a legal understanding of what is patentable or licenseable, but this escapes me completely. Is this possible for a pretty run of the mill idea? Didn't most of us all back in the early days of quads with MIS, Lyson, Sundance, etc all want this? It occurred to me one day back in 1998, do I have some money coming? I don't think anyone working in B&W ink would even feel the need to express such an idea, it's just a given.
> HP got in this game pretty late compared to most of us. They deserve credit for developing it and bringing it to market successfully, but the basic obvious idea is somehow worthy of infringement protection?
> Actually, weren't the NK7s the first multiply density neutral mono inks on the market?
> I have an idea, cars should use less gas. I thought of it a long time ago. Who do I invoice?
> Tyler
> http://www.custom-digital.com/
>

>
> That's right, that's a totally silly bogus idea. I reminds me of the corporate lawyer cats for the pharmaceutical industry trying to patent human genes and threatened to sue any scientist who used them in gene theraph. As if they created them.
> 
> In HP's case they DID create the chemical mixes, and did a pretty damn good job, but certainly not the concept of utilizing multiple grays in an inkjet printer. I think that was Cone back in the 90's with Iris printers. Maybe Jon should sue THEM...
> 
> 
> john
> 
> 
> 
> 
> > I don't have a legal understanding of what is patentable or licenseable, but this escapes me completely. Is this possible for a pretty run of the mill idea? Didn't most of us all back in the early days of quads with MIS, Lyson, Sundance, etc all want this? It occurred to me one day back in 1998, do I have some money coming? I don't think anyone working in B&W ink would even feel the need to express such an idea, it's just a given.
> > HP got in this game pretty late compared to most of us. They deserve credit for developing it and bringing it to market successfully, but the basic obvious idea is somehow worthy of infringement protection?
> > Actually, weren't the NK7s the first multiply density neutral mono inks on the market?
> > I have an idea, cars should use less gas. I thought of it a long time ago. Who do I invoice?
> > Tyler
> > http://www.custom-digital.com/
> >
>

>
> 
> That Wilhelm Research has to reinvent itself from time to time doesn't 
> change the fact that it contributed a lot to the improvements made on 
> fade resistance, etc. for analogue photography, the movie archives, 
> digital printing and probably more.
>  >I would argue after reading this that the entire WIR premise of what 
> is easily noticeable is pointed at sunday shooters and scrapbookers 
> rather than fine artists and photographers<  sounds harsh then. I don't 
> think Mark McCormick would make the same remark, he probably considers 
> his institute both in testing and as an enterprise as a next step after 
> Wilhelm's work, with respect for what has been done before.
> 
> 
> -- 
> Met vriendelijke groeten,   Ernst
> 
> 
> New: Dinkla Canvas Wrap Actions
> 
> |      Dinkla Grafische Techniek      |
> |         www.pigment-print.com        |
> |                 ( unvollendet )                 |
>

> his developer's hat; but neither do I apologize for my own, though  
> having been involved in several areas of the field, I am "biased" in  
> multiple directions at once.
> 
> C. D. Tobie
> Global Product Technology Mngr.
> Digital Imaging & Home Theater
> Datacolor.com
> CDTobie@...
>

>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Ernst Dinkla <edinkla@> ...
> ...
> > HP either must have that patent or have a license to use more than 2 
> > neutral greys in an inkset, all the Z models and the B9180 + B8850 have 
> > that 4 or 3 neutral grey inks as the spine in the color mode as the only 
> > inks used in a neutral B&W print.
> > 
> 
> I don't have a legal understanding of what is patentable or licenseable, but this escapes me completely. Is this possible for a pretty run of the mill idea? Didn't most of us all back in the early days of quads with MIS, Lyson, Sundance, etc all want this? It occurred to me one day back in 1998, do I have some money coming? I don't think anyone working in B&W ink would even feel the need to express such an idea, it's just a given.
> HP got in this game pretty late compared to most of us. They deserve credit for developing it and bringing it to market successfully, but the basic obvious idea is somehow worthy of infringement protection?
> Actually, weren't the NK7s the first multiply density neutral mono inks on the market?
> I have an idea, cars should use less gas. I thought of it a long time ago. Who do I invoice?
> Tyler
> http://www.custom-digital.com/
>

>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Ernst Dinkla <edinkla@> ...
> ...
> > HP either must have that patent or have a license to use more than 2 
> > neutral greys in an inkset, all the Z models and the B9180 + B8850 have 
> > that 4 or 3 neutral grey inks as the spine in the color mode as the only 
> > inks used in a neutral B&W print.
> > 
> 
> I don't have a legal understanding of what is patentable or licenseable, but this escapes me completely. Is this possible for a pretty run of the mill idea? Didn't most of us all back in the early days of quads with MIS, Lyson, Sundance, etc all want this? It occurred to me one day back in 1998, do I have some money coming? I don't think anyone working in B&W ink would even feel the need to express such an idea, it's just a given.
> HP got in this game pretty late compared to most of us. They deserve credit for developing it and bringing it to market successfully, but the basic obvious idea is somehow worthy of infringement protection?
> Actually, weren't the NK7s the first multiply density neutral mono inks on the market?
> I have an idea, cars should use less gas. I thought of it a long time ago. Who do I invoice?
> Tyler
> http://www.custom-digital.com/
>

On Apr 12, 2009, at 7:09 PM, "john dean" <deanwork2003@...> wrote:

> Yea, he owns a company that produces black and white carbon inksets  
> of great beauty, and he as done so for a decade and more, under very  
> difficult circumstances, and each new one is better than the last.  
> It is a joke to compare yourself to him, even marginally, and it's  
> disrespectful in my opinion. Why?... for the simple reason that he  
> is known across the world as a great PRINTMAKER first. He is one of  
> us in other words, and that is exactly why he has so much more  
> credibility in this monochrome digital imaging world than just about  
> anyone I've come across.
>
> Having "multiple hats" doesn't make one geometrically more  
> sophisticated and insightful in this territory. Hardly. And  
> Certainly not a great print maker, which by the way, Cone is. And,  
> that is significant to those of us who grew up in this photo world  
> 30 years ago. I've known many historically great photo print makers  
> and Jon, though he runs an ink business, happens to be one.
>
> john
>
>
>
>
>
> I don't begrudge him his saleman's hat or
>> his developer's hat; but neither do I apologize for my own, though
>> having been involved in several areas of the field, I am "biased" in
>> multiple directions at once.
>>
>> C. D. Tobie
>> Global Product Technology Mngr.
>> Digital Imaging & Home Theater
>> Datacolor.com
>> CDTobie@...
>>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other  
> resources as they are often being updated.
>
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> this same page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
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> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or  
> flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed  
> from the membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital  
> B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be  
> removed from the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and  
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group  
> Owner and Moderators. See “Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines” in  
> the Files section:
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>
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE  
> PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE “OWNE 
> R” AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL  
> NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL,  
> CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DA 
> MAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE L 
> OSSES (EVEN IF THE  “OWNER” AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW,  
> THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH D 
> AMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIG 
> ITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTER 
> ATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF  
> ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) AN 
> Y OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

On Apr 12, 2009, at 7:07 PM, "Jon Cone" <jon@inkjetmall.com> wrote:

> agreed. It does sound harsh as it implies that sunday shooters and  
> scrapbookers are incapable of detecting a 5-10% fade, which they are  
> not. But a 35% fade I find equally and universally insulting because  
> art and photographs in that general condition of fade are worthy of  
> a garbage bin rather than "easily noticeable fade". I hate that I  
> made that kind of remark. Some of the best and most imaginative work  
> I have seen lately has been coming from shooters who do not consider  
> themselves Pros...  I apologize to all those I may have offended by  
> that remark.
>
> Jon
>
>
>
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Ernst Dinkla  
> <edinkla@...> wrote:
>>
>>
>> That Wilhelm Research has to reinvent itself from time to time  
>> doesn't
>> change the fact that it contributed a lot to the improvements made on
>> fade resistance, etc. for analogue photography, the movie archives,
>> digital printing and probably more.
>>> I would argue after reading this that the entire WIR premise of what
>> is easily noticeable is pointed at sunday shooters and scrapbookers
>> rather than fine artists and photographers<  sounds harsh then. I  
>> don't
>> think Mark McCormick would make the same remark, he probably  
>> considers
>> his institute both in testing and as an enterprise as a next step  
>> after
>> Wilhelm's work, with respect for what has been done before.
>>
>>
>> -- 
>> Met vriendelijke groeten,   Ernst
>>
>>
>> New: Dinkla Canvas Wrap Actions
>>
>> |      Dinkla Grafische Techniek      |
>> |         www.pigment-print.com        |
>> |                 ( unvollendet )                 |
>>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other  
> resources as they are often being updated.
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish  
> to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting  
> this same page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages  
> to keep them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or  
> flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed  
> from the membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital  
> B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be  
> removed from the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and  
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group  
> Owner and Moderators. See “Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines” in  
> the Files section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
>
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE  
> PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE “OWNE 
> R” AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL  
> NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL,  
> CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DA 
> MAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE L 
> OSSES (EVEN IF THE  “OWNER” AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW,  
> THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH D 
> AMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIG 
> ITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTER 
> ATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF  
> ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) AN 
> Y OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

>
> One comment here left the impression that the HP inks may use cheaper pigments, using the "even fading" as the cover.  I'd phrase this another way.  Using the very best color pigments may not be justified if they cause the ink to color shift.  For example, if there is a super cyan that is stronger than any magenta, it makes no sense to pay more for the super cyan and end up with an inkset that green-shifts.  So, it is rational to save that money.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>