Doepfer

Actually that is not the case. If you make the video full screen you  
can see the output of the Z3000 is being used. when he changes  
waveforms you can see him re-patch the output cord to the other  
waveform jack. Also there is nothing plugged into the External in for  
the frequency counter so it is reading the internal VCO and not an  
external one. T Cwejman that is in the patch looks like the MMF-1, a  
multi-mode filter that is used in the demo also. Maybe it does not  
pass a unfiltered signal when set to it's extreme "open" settings. I  
would love to see the Z3000 straight into a scope. Don Kim's video  
shows similar looking square waves etc. when they are not being  
modulated. I am going to check the AS and Doepfer VCOs in me system.

-James

On Nov 24, 2008, at 8:28 AM, Andreas Wetterberg wrote:

> He's mainly using the - very expensive - cwejman oscillator in that  
> demo, and using the tiptops as frequency counters.
>
>
> ;)
>
> Andreas...
>
> James Husted skrev:
>> I was hot for the Tiptop VCO till I saw this video made about  
>> it.    -     http://vimeo.com/2206614
>> That is one of the worst sine waves I've seen and the spectrum  
>> display  shows many harmonics that shouldn't be there. I count at  
>> least 7 on  the spectrum display. . All I can hope is the  
>> distortion is caused by  something downstream between the VCO and  
>> the scope. Does anyone who  has a z3000 and a scope and can tell me  
>> if this setup was just faulty  or does the unit make sines as shown  
>> in the vid? The other waveforms  shown are not to good on this demo  
>> either - the sawtooth and triangles  look like they sag and the  
>> square waves are not square with flat tops  and bottoms.
>> -James
>>
>>
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Out of curiosity, which euro oscillators have quality sine wave outputs? 

All my Doepfer osc's (including the "High-End")  have really crap (useless) sine shapes. 
Even my favorite Zeroscillator becomes grossly distorted at lower freq's. And according to 
this thread, it looks like ASys and Z3000 are also low quality.

However, *all* my vintage VCOs and LFO's have nice low distortion sines. 



--- In Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com, James Husted <ersatzplanet@...> wrote:

>
> Actually that is not the case. If you make the video full screen you  
> can see the output of the Z3000 is being used. when he changes  
> waveforms you can see him re-patch the output cord to the other  
> waveform jack. Also there is nothing plugged into the External in for  
> the frequency counter so it is reading the internal VCO and not an  
> external one. T Cwejman that is in the patch looks like the MMF-1, a  
> multi-mode filter that is used in the demo also. Maybe it does not  
> pass a unfiltered signal when set to it's extreme "open" settings. I  
> would love to see the Z3000 straight into a scope. Don Kim's video  
> shows similar looking square waves etc. when they are not being  
> modulated. I am going to check the AS and Doepfer VCOs in me system.
> 
> -James
> 
> On Nov 24, 2008, at 8:28 AM, Andreas Wetterberg wrote:
> 
> > He's mainly using the - very expensive - cwejman oscillator in that  
> > demo, and using the tiptops as frequency counters.
> >
> >
> > ;)
> >
> > Andreas...
> >
> > James Husted skrev:
> >> I was hot for the Tiptop VCO till I saw this video made about  
> >> it.    -     http://vimeo.com/2206614
> >> That is one of the worst sine waves I've seen and the spectrum  
> >> display  shows many harmonics that shouldn't be there. I count at  
> >> least 7 on  the spectrum display. . All I can hope is the  
> >> distortion is caused by  something downstream between the VCO and  
> >> the scope. Does anyone who  has a z3000 and a scope and can tell me  
> >> if this setup was just faulty  or does the unit make sines as shown  
> >> in the vid? The other waveforms  shown are not to good on this demo  
> >> either - the sawtooth and triangles  look like they sag and the  
> >> square waves are not square with flat tops  and bottoms.
> >> -James
> >>
> >>
> >
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

i dunno how useful this is, but whatever, it's an analogue systems vco test:

http://www.elanhickler.com/misc/AnalogueSystemsVCO.wav (sine first,
triangle second)
http://www.elanhickler.com/misc/analoguesystems_sine.PNG
http://www.elanhickler.com/misc/analoguesystems_tri.PNG



On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 1:16 PM, James Husted <ersatzplanet@mac.com> wrote:
> Actually that is not the case. If you make the video full screen you
> can see the output of the Z3000 is being used. when he changes
> waveforms you can see him re-patch the output cord to the other
> waveform jack. Also there is nothing plugged into the External in for
> the frequency counter so it is reading the internal VCO and not an
> external one. T Cwejman that is in the patch looks like the MMF-1, a
> multi-mode filter that is used in the demo also. Maybe it does not
> pass a unfiltered signal when set to it's extreme "open" settings. I
> would love to see the Z3000 straight into a scope. Don Kim's video
> shows similar looking square waves etc. when they are not being
> modulated. I am going to check the AS and Doepfer VCOs in me system.
>
> -James
>
> On Nov 24, 2008, at 8:28 AM, Andreas Wetterberg wrote:
>
>> He's mainly using the - very expensive - cwejman oscillator in that
>> demo, and using the tiptops as frequency counters.
>>
>>
>> ;)
>>
>> Andreas...
>>
>> James Husted skrev:
>>> I was hot for the Tiptop VCO till I saw this video made about
>>> it. - http://vimeo.com/2206614
>>> That is one of the worst sine waves I've seen and the spectrum
>>> display shows many harmonics that shouldn't be there. I count at
>>> least 7 on the spectrum display. . All I can hope is the
>>> distortion is caused by something downstream between the VCO and
>>> the scope. Does anyone who has a z3000 and a scope and can tell me
>>> if this setup was just faulty or does the unit make sines as shown
>>> in the vid? The other waveforms shown are not to good on this demo
>>> either - the sawtooth and triangles look like they sag and the
>>> square waves are not square with flat tops and bottoms.
>>> -James
>>>
>>>
>>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> 



-- 
www.elanhickler.com

My Aries modular VCOs have a triangular core that also forms the square and sine output. 
There's a second sync'd core for sawtooth output (so no glitch). It's their differential 
transistor tri-to-sine converter that makes the high quality sine output. 

Moog, Arp, Polyfusion, etc. all used this standard circuit to make their high quality tri-to-
sine conversions. Looking at Doepfer schematics, all his oscillators (except the quadrature) 
use that cheap simple diode converter. I'm guessing Dieter chose this for cost rather than 
quality reasons. I was expecting the expensive High-End VCO to be better quality.

BTW, I was really tempted to get Tip-Top, but that video shows a distorted sine even 
worse than Doepfer! Makes me wonder about the design quality inside...



--- In Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com, Argitoth <argitoth@...> wrote:

>
> So far I think from best to wrost, (but I'm not so sure) it's
> 
> 1. Plan B VCO Sine (good)
> 2. Tip Top Audio VCO (a little better than Analogue Systems? Never
> owned one of these)
> 3. Analogue Systems VCO Sine (bad)
> 4. Doepfer A-110 (worse)
> 
> Laryn91, your vintage MODULES or your vintage tabletop/rack/keyboard
> synths? Don't forget that all my filter modules produce very clean
> sines. Also, I believe the quality of the sine has to do with its
> oscillator core. I think to get a clean sine requires a second VCO
> within a VCO... as in, one module has to house two different
> oscillator cores. One for square,tri,saw, and another separate one for
> sine... but I don't know anything about circuit boards, this is just
> my guess. I think this is easily done in a self-contained synth like
> your vintage gear because it's one whole system, not a bunch of
> modules... or something... know what I mean?
>

So far I think from best to wrost, (but I'm not so sure) it's

1. Plan B VCO Sine (good)
2. Tip Top Audio VCO (a little better than Analogue Systems? Never
owned one of these)
3. Analogue Systems VCO Sine (bad)
4. Doepfer A-110 (worse)

Laryn91, your vintage MODULES or your vintage tabletop/rack/keyboard
synths? Don't forget that all my filter modules produce very clean
sines. Also, I believe the quality of the sine has to do with its
oscillator core. I think to get a clean sine requires a second VCO
within a VCO... as in, one module has to house two different
oscillator cores. One for square,tri,saw, and another separate one for
sine... but I don't know anything about circuit boards, this is just
my guess. I think this is easily done in a self-contained synth like
your vintage gear because it's one whole system, not a bunch of
modules... or something... know what I mean?

A perfect sine would give you no harmonics.

I'm pretty sure that the harmonics is what gives a sine out of an
oscillator it's character.  The ASys sine is not bad, that's a
personal opinion.  The waveforms on my scope show the M15 as the most
mathematically sine like, the ASys has slightly pointier peaks (and
thus sounds brighter towards a triangle sound), and the Z3000 has the
most "imperfect" waveform of the three mentioned.  However, the Z3000
and M15 FM better than the ASys (which has no dedicated FM input).
The ASys however has a wave shape control that lets you skew waveforms
and morph saws from ramping down to ramping up, and goes into LFO much
slower than the M15.

There are no "bad" tools, just lack of understanding and/or the wrong
tool for that particular job.
I use the scope to see what modulations do to signals, not to judge if
my ears are doing their job.  I hear with my ears, not my eyes.

If mathematical perfection is that important, perhaps CSound is more
what you want.

Don Kim, all it takes to get a clean sine is to find the right
oscillator. You shouldn't discourage people looking for a little bit
of perfection in their modular synth.

I was refering to you and your "perfect" sine.

On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 3:29 PM, Argitoth <argitoth@gmail.com> wrote:
> Don Kim, all it takes to get a clean sine is to find the right
> oscillator. You shouldn't discourage people looking for a little bit
> of perfection in their modular synth.
>
>

man, I feel jipped now. Every oscillator that doesn't have a clean
sine is simply using cheap parts? that suks.

On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 4:43 PM, laryn91 <caymus91@mac.com> wrote:
> My Aries modular VCOs have a triangular core that also forms the square and
> sine output.
> There's a second sync'd core for sawtooth output (so no glitch). It's their
> differential
> transistor tri-to-sine converter that makes the high quality sine output.
>
> Moog, Arp, Polyfusion, etc. all used this standard circuit to make their
> high quality tri-to-
> sine conversions. Looking at Doepfer schematics, all his oscillators (except
> the quadrature)
> use that cheap simple diode converter. I'm guessing Dieter chose this for
> cost rather than
> quality reasons. I was expecting the expensive High-End VCO to be better
> quality.
>
> BTW, I was really tempted to get Tip-Top, but that video shows a distorted
> sine even
> worse than Doepfer! Makes me wonder about the design quality inside...
>
> --- In Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com, Argitoth <argitoth@...> wrote:
>>
>> So far I think from best to wrost, (but I'm not so sure) it's
>>
>> 1. Plan B VCO Sine (good)
>> 2. Tip Top Audio VCO (a little better than Analogue Systems? Never
>> owned one of these)
>> 3. Analogue Systems VCO Sine (bad)
>> 4. Doepfer A-110 (worse)
>>
>> Laryn91, your vintage MODULES or your vintage tabletop/rack/keyboard
>> synths? Don't forget that all my filter modules produce very clean
>> sines. Also, I believe the quality of the sine has to do with its
>> oscillator core. I think to get a clean sine requires a second VCO
>> within a VCO... as in, one module has to house two different
>> oscillator cores. One for square,tri,saw, and another separate one for
>> sine... but I don't know anything about circuit boards, this is just
>> my guess. I think this is easily done in a self-contained synth like
>> your vintage gear because it's one whole system, not a bunch of
>> modules... or something... know what I mean?
>>
>
> 



-- 
www.elanhickler.com

an,

Excuse me Argitoth, but if you're so obsessed with pure sine waves, go
digital. Buy Max/MSP or learn SuperCollider.I thought we were using analogue
gear because of its colour and impurities?
At least I am.
And I'll say it again: Buy an A143-9 if you want nice sinewaves.
It goes far into the audiorange.
Check the attached picture.. An A143-9 hooked up straight to my Focusrite
Pro26 firewire interface.

greets,

Ernst











On Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 12:50 AM, Argitoth <argitoth@gmail.com> wrote:

>   man, I feel jipped now. Every oscillator that doesn't have a clean
> sine is simply using cheap parts? that suks.
>
>
> On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 4:43 PM, laryn91 <caymus91@mac.com<caymus91%40mac.com>>
> wrote:
> > My Aries modular VCOs have a triangular core that also forms the square
> and
> > sine output.
> > There's a second sync'd core for sawtooth output (so no glitch). It's
> their
> > differential
> > transistor tri-to-sine converter that makes the high quality sine output.
> >
> > Moog, Arp, Polyfusion, etc. all used this standard circuit to make their
> > high quality tri-to-
> > sine conversions. Looking at Doepfer schematics, all his oscillators
> (except
> > the quadrature)
> > use that cheap simple diode converter. I'm guessing Dieter chose this for
> > cost rather than
> > quality reasons. I was expecting the expensive High-End VCO to be better
> > quality.
> >
> > BTW, I was really tempted to get Tip-Top, but that video shows a
> distorted
> > sine even
> > worse than Doepfer! Makes me wonder about the design quality inside...
> >
> > --- In Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com <Doepfer_a100%40yahoogroups.com>,
> Argitoth <argitoth@...> wrote:
> >>
> >> So far I think from best to wrost, (but I'm not so sure) it's
> >>
> >> 1. Plan B VCO Sine (good)
> >> 2. Tip Top Audio VCO (a little better than Analogue Systems? Never
> >> owned one of these)
> >> 3. Analogue Systems VCO Sine (bad)
> >> 4. Doepfer A-110 (worse)
> >>
> >> Laryn91, your vintage MODULES or your vintage tabletop/rack/keyboard
> >> synths? Don't forget that all my filter modules produce very clean
> >> sines. Also, I believe the quality of the sine has to do with its
> >> oscillator core. I think to get a clean sine requires a second VCO
> >> within a VCO... as in, one module has to house two different
> >> oscillator cores. One for square,tri,saw, and another separate one for
> >> sine... but I don't know anything about circuit boards, this is just
> >> my guess. I think this is easily done in a self-contained synth like
> >> your vintage gear because it's one whole system, not a bunch of
> >> modules... or something... know what I mean?
> >>
> >
> >
>
> --
> www.elanhickler.com
>
> an,
>
>  
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>I thought we were using analogue
> gear because of its colour and impurities?

Some of us like the sound of analog because of its continuous (un-encoded) signal - not 
because of sloppy or low-quality product designs. 

BTW, do you think digital doesn't add color and impurities too? My studio is full of digital 
products that add all sorts of audible (unintended)) color and impurities to the sound.

If you sell a VCO that can't make a decent sine wave - maybe label it something else 
instead. Sine actually means a wave with NO ADDED COLOR OR IMPURITIES.

My 143-9 doesn't track anywhere near well enough to be useful as a VCO. It's intended to 
be used as a LFO.





--- In Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com, achtung_999 <heinrich.himmelwasser@...> 
wrote:
>
> Excuse me Argitoth, but if you're so obsessed with pure sine waves, go
> digital. Buy Max/MSP or learn SuperCollider.I thought we were using analogue
> gear because of its colour and impurities?
> At least I am.
> And I'll say it again: Buy an A143-9 if you want nice sinewaves.
> It goes far into the audiorange.
> Check the attached picture.. An A143-9 hooked up straight to my Focusrite
> Pro26 firewire interface.
> 
> greets,
> 
> Ernst
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 12:50 AM, Argitoth <argitoth@...> wrote:
> 
> >   man, I feel jipped now. Every oscillator that doesn't have a clean
> > sine is simply using cheap parts? that suks.
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 4:43 PM, laryn91 
<caymus91@...<caymus91%40mac.com>>

> > wrote:
> > > My Aries modular VCOs have a triangular core that also forms the square
> > and
> > > sine output.
> > > There's a second sync'd core for sawtooth output (so no glitch). It's
> > their
> > > differential
> > > transistor tri-to-sine converter that makes the high quality sine output.
> > >
> > > Moog, Arp, Polyfusion, etc. all used this standard circuit to make their
> > > high quality tri-to-
> > > sine conversions. Looking at Doepfer schematics, all his oscillators
> > (except
> > > the quadrature)
> > > use that cheap simple diode converter. I'm guessing Dieter chose this for
> > > cost rather than
> > > quality reasons. I was expecting the expensive High-End VCO to be better
> > > quality.
> > >
> > > BTW, I was really tempted to get Tip-Top, but that video shows a
> > distorted
> > > sine even
> > > worse than Doepfer! Makes me wonder about the design quality inside...
> > >
> > > --- In Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com <Doepfer_a100%40yahoogroups.com>,
> > Argitoth <argitoth@> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> So far I think from best to wrost, (but I'm not so sure) it's
> > >>
> > >> 1. Plan B VCO Sine (good)
> > >> 2. Tip Top Audio VCO (a little better than Analogue Systems? Never
> > >> owned one of these)
> > >> 3. Analogue Systems VCO Sine (bad)
> > >> 4. Doepfer A-110 (worse)
> > >>
> > >> Laryn91, your vintage MODULES or your vintage tabletop/rack/keyboard
> > >> synths? Don't forget that all my filter modules produce very clean
> > >> sines. Also, I believe the quality of the sine has to do with its
> > >> oscillator core. I think to get a clean sine requires a second VCO
> > >> within a VCO... as in, one module has to house two different
> > >> oscillator cores. One for square,tri,saw, and another separate one for
> > >> sine... but I don't know anything about circuit boards, this is just
> > >> my guess. I think this is easily done in a self-contained synth like
> > >> your vintage gear because it's one whole system, not a bunch of
> > >> modules... or something... know what I mean?
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> >
> > --
> > www.elanhickler.com
> >
> > an,
> >
> >  
> >
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

laryn91, haha, finally someone on my side. I spent over $3000 on my
analog synth. Some of that money was spent replacing crappy-designed
modules... there are no impurities in analog, only badly designed
circuit boards. The impurity is only in the digital world.

On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 6:34 PM, laryn91 <caymus91@mac.com> wrote:
>
>>I thought we were using analogue
>> gear because of its colour and impurities?
>
> Some of us like the sound of analog because of its continuous (un-encoded)
> signal - not
> because of sloppy or low-quality product designs.
>
> BTW, do you think digital doesn't add color and impurities too? My studio is
> full of digital
> products that add all sorts of audible (unintended)) color and impurities to
> the sound.
>
> If you sell a VCO that can't make a decent sine wave - maybe label it
> something else
> instead. Sine actually means a wave with NO ADDED COLOR OR IMPURITIES.
>
> My 143-9 doesn't track anywhere near well enough to be useful as a VCO. It's
> intended to
> be used as a LFO.
>
> --- In Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com, achtung_999 <heinrich.himmelwasser@...>
> wrote:
>>
>> Excuse me Argitoth, but if you're so obsessed with pure sine waves, go
>> digital. Buy Max/MSP or learn SuperCollider.I thought we were using
>> analogue
>> gear because of its colour and impurities?
>> At least I am.
>> And I'll say it again: Buy an A143-9 if you want nice sinewaves.
>> It goes far into the audiorange.
>> Check the attached picture.. An A143-9 hooked up straight to my Focusrite
>> Pro26 firewire interface.
>>
>> greets,
>>
>> Ernst
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 12:50 AM, Argitoth <argitoth@...> wrote:
>>
>> > man, I feel jipped now. Every oscillator that doesn't have a clean
>> > sine is simply using cheap parts? that suks.
>> >
>> >
>> > On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 4:43 PM, laryn91
> <caymus91@...<caymus91%40mac.com>>
>> > wrote:
>> > > My Aries modular VCOs have a triangular core that also forms the
>> > > square
>> > and
>> > > sine output.
>> > > There's a second sync'd core for sawtooth output (so no glitch). It's
>> > their
>> > > differential
>> > > transistor tri-to-sine converter that makes the high quality sine
>> > > output.
>> > >
>> > > Moog, Arp, Polyfusion, etc. all used this standard circuit to make
>> > > their
>> > > high quality tri-to-
>> > > sine conversions. Looking at Doepfer schematics, all his oscillators
>> > (except
>> > > the quadrature)
>> > > use that cheap simple diode converter. I'm guessing Dieter chose this
>> > > for
>> > > cost rather than
>> > > quality reasons. I was expecting the expensive High-End VCO to be
>> > > better
>> > > quality.
>> > >
>> > > BTW, I was really tempted to get Tip-Top, but that video shows a
>> > distorted
>> > > sine even
>> > > worse than Doepfer! Makes me wonder about the design quality inside...
>> > >
>> > > --- In Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com <Doepfer_a100%40yahoogroups.com>,
>> > Argitoth <argitoth@> wrote:
>> > >>
>> > >> So far I think from best to wrost, (but I'm not so sure) it's
>> > >>
>> > >> 1. Plan B VCO Sine (good)
>> > >> 2. Tip Top Audio VCO (a little better than Analogue Systems? Never
>> > >> owned one of these)
>> > >> 3. Analogue Systems VCO Sine (bad)
>> > >> 4. Doepfer A-110 (worse)
>> > >>
>> > >> Laryn91, your vintage MODULES or your vintage tabletop/rack/keyboard
>> > >> synths? Don't forget that all my filter modules produce very clean
>> > >> sines. Also, I believe the quality of the sine has to do with its
>> > >> oscillator core. I think to get a clean sine requires a second VCO
>> > >> within a VCO... as in, one module has to house two different
>> > >> oscillator cores. One for square,tri,saw, and another separate one
>> > >> for
>> > >> sine... but I don't know anything about circuit boards, this is just
>> > >> my guess. I think this is easily done in a self-contained synth like
>> > >> your vintage gear because it's one whole system, not a bunch of
>> > >> modules... or something... know what I mean?
>> > >>
>> > >
>> > >
>> >
>> > --
>> > www.elanhickler.com
>> >
>> > an,
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>
>
> 



-- 
www.elanhickler.com

Oh BTW, i don't mean to imply that I think Deopfer modules are sloppy or poor designs - 
just the opposite. Deopfer modules appear to be high  quality designs and build, a 
massive selection that sound great and manufactured and sold at very economical prices. 

And super reliable too - I have 3 G6 racks of Deopfer modules and all have worked 100% 
since day one. That's quite an accomplishment from a small engineering company!
 
But about those "sine" waves... ;-)



--- In Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com, Argitoth <argitoth@...> wrote:
>
> laryn91, haha, finally someone on my side. I spent over $3000 on my
> analog synth. Some of that money was spent replacing crappy-designed
> modules... there are no impurities in analog, only badly designed
> circuit boards. The impurity is only in the digital world.
> 
> On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 6:34 PM, laryn91 <caymus91@...> wrote:
> >
> >>I thought we were using analogue
> >> gear because of its colour and impurities?
> >
> > Some of us like the sound of analog because of its continuous (un-encoded)
> > signal - not
> > because of sloppy or low-quality product designs.
> >
> > BTW, do you think digital doesn't add color and impurities too? My studio is
> > full of digital
> > products that add all sorts of audible (unintended)) color and impurities to
> > the sound.
> >
> > If you sell a VCO that can't make a decent sine wave - maybe label it
> > something else
> > instead. Sine actually means a wave with NO ADDED COLOR OR IMPURITIES.
> >
> > My 143-9 doesn't track anywhere near well enough to be useful as a VCO. It's
> > intended to
> > be used as a LFO.
> >
> > --- In Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com, achtung_999 <heinrich.himmelwasser@>
> > wrote:
> >>
> >> Excuse me Argitoth, but if you're so obsessed with pure sine waves, go
> >> digital. Buy Max/MSP or learn SuperCollider.I thought we were using
> >> analogue
> >> gear because of its colour and impurities?
> >> At least I am.
> >> And I'll say it again: Buy an A143-9 if you want nice sinewaves.
> >> It goes far into the audiorange.
> >> Check the attached picture.. An A143-9 hooked up straight to my Focusrite
> >> Pro26 firewire interface.
> >>
> >> greets,
> >>
> >> Ernst
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 12:50 AM, Argitoth <argitoth@> wrote:
> >>
> >> > man, I feel jipped now. Every oscillator that doesn't have a clean
> >> > sine is simply using cheap parts? that suks.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 4:43 PM, laryn91
> > <caymus91@<caymus91%40mac.com>>
> >> > wrote:
> >> > > My Aries modular VCOs have a triangular core that also forms the
> >> > > square
> >> > and
> >> > > sine output.
> >> > > There's a second sync'd core for sawtooth output (so no glitch). It's
> >> > their
> >> > > differential
> >> > > transistor tri-to-sine converter that makes the high quality sine
> >> > > output.
> >> > >
> >> > > Moog, Arp, Polyfusion, etc. all used this standard circuit to make
> >> > > their
> >> > > high quality tri-to-
> >> > > sine conversions. Looking at Doepfer schematics, all his oscillators
> >> > (except
> >> > > the quadrature)
> >> > > use that cheap simple diode converter. I'm guessing Dieter chose this
> >> > > for
> >> > > cost rather than
> >> > > quality reasons. I was expecting the expensive High-End VCO to be
> >> > > better
> >> > > quality.
> >> > >
> >> > > BTW, I was really tempted to get Tip-Top, but that video shows a
> >> > distorted
> >> > > sine even
> >> > > worse than Doepfer! Makes me wonder about the design quality inside...
> >> > >
> >> > > --- In Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com 
<Doepfer_a100%40yahoogroups.com>,

> >> > Argitoth <argitoth@> wrote:
> >> > >>
> >> > >> So far I think from best to wrost, (but I'm not so sure) it's
> >> > >>
> >> > >> 1. Plan B VCO Sine (good)
> >> > >> 2. Tip Top Audio VCO (a little better than Analogue Systems? Never
> >> > >> owned one of these)
> >> > >> 3. Analogue Systems VCO Sine (bad)
> >> > >> 4. Doepfer A-110 (worse)
> >> > >>
> >> > >> Laryn91, your vintage MODULES or your vintage tabletop/rack/keyboard
> >> > >> synths? Don't forget that all my filter modules produce very clean
> >> > >> sines. Also, I believe the quality of the sine has to do with its
> >> > >> oscillator core. I think to get a clean sine requires a second VCO
> >> > >> within a VCO... as in, one module has to house two different
> >> > >> oscillator cores. One for square,tri,saw, and another separate one
> >> > >> for
> >> > >> sine... but I don't know anything about circuit boards, this is just
> >> > >> my guess. I think this is easily done in a self-contained synth like
> >> > >> your vintage gear because it's one whole system, not a bunch of
> >> > >> modules... or something... know what I mean?
> >> > >>
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > www.elanhickler.com
> >> >
> >> > an,
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >>
> >
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> www.elanhickler.com
>

Well after starting this branch of the thread I went down and plugged  
in all my VCOs to a scope and they all lack in "perfectness" from the  
true waveshapes. I used to teach electronic music back in the 70's  
with an Arp 2500 and those old synths had great waveforms if I  
remember correctly. And you could keep tacking on CV sources to them  
without them sagging and needing buffer amps etc. too. I have AS and  
Doepfer analog modules and they all show mis-shaped waveforms from the  
true shapes. The talk on this list about one VCO sounding better/worse  
than another makes sense for the first time now! I come from a era  
where one VCOs waveforms were closer to another's and the differences  
were mainly in the tracking and features.
The best analog sine shape I found in my rig was the Doepfer  
quadrature VCO and one of the Doepfer LP filters in resonance  
feedback. Other than that the best waveform shapes came out of one  
piece of kit I own. All of them the expected textbook shapes. As  
heretic as it may sound - theses came from my Nord G2. I would have  
guessed that though since it is easier to make them from a look-up  
table than from circuits.
Please - no Digital vs. Analog religious wars because of that - We  
have ALL been there and heard it all already.
-James

James Husted, you come from an era of great synths. Can you tell me if
this lack of quality in today's lower-cost modular synths have
translated to worse quality in overall sound? Or is it that when I rip
out a sweet screaming synth bassline or lead that I am getting a sound
that is honorable in the synth hall of fame? Or will my synth usually
fall short of greatness? How satisfied are you with your modern
modular synth?

design them yourself then...

Bakis Sirros - Parallel Worlds / Interconnected / Memory Geist
[Doepfer_a100] group owner
www. parallel - worlds - music. com
www. myspace. com/ parallelworldsmusic
www. myspace. com/ interconnectedmusic
www. myspace. com/ memorygeist
www. DiN. org. uk
www. musicamaximamagnetica. com
www. shimarecords. co. uk
www. rubberrecords. gr
Athens - Greece

--- On Tue, 11/25/08, Argitoth <argitoth@gmail.com> wrote:

From: Argitoth <argitoth@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Doepfer_a100] Re: starting a modular - Z3000 waveform quality?
To: Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, November 25, 2008, 4:24 AM






laryn91, haha, finally someone on my side. I spent over $3000 on my
analog synth. Some of that money was spent replacing crappy-designed
modules... there are no impurities in analog, only badly designed
circuit boards. The impurity is only in the digital world.

On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 6:34 PM, laryn91 <caymus91@mac. com> wrote:
>
>>I thought we were using analogue
>> gear because of its colour and impurities?
>
> Some of us like the sound of analog because of its continuous (un-encoded)
> signal - not
> because of sloppy or low-quality product designs.
>
> BTW, do you think digital doesn't add color and impurities too? My studio is
> full of digital
> products that add all sorts of audible (unintended) ) color and impurities to
> the sound.
>
> If you sell a VCO that can't make a decent sine wave - maybe label it
> something else
> instead. Sine actually means a wave with NO ADDED COLOR OR IMPURITIES.
>
> My 143-9 doesn't track anywhere near well enough to be useful as a VCO. It's
> intended to
> be used as a LFO.
>
> --- In Doepfer_a100@ yahoogroups. com, achtung_999 <heinrich.himmelwas ser@...>
> wrote:
>>
>> Excuse me Argitoth, but if you're so obsessed with pure sine waves, go
>> digital. Buy Max/MSP or learn SuperCollider. I thought we were using
>> analogue
>> gear because of its colour and impurities?
>> At least I am.
>> And I'll say it again: Buy an A143-9 if you want nice sinewaves.
>> It goes far into the audiorange.
>> Check the attached picture.. An A143-9 hooked up straight to my Focusrite
>> Pro26 firewire interface.
>>
>> greets,
>>
>> Ernst
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 12:50 AM, Argitoth <argitoth@.. .> wrote:
>>
>> > man, I feel jipped now. Every oscillator that doesn't have a clean
>> > sine is simply using cheap parts? that suks.
>> >
>> >
>> > On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 4:43 PM, laryn91
> <caymus91@.. .<caymus91% 40mac.com> >
>> > wrote:
>> > > My Aries modular VCOs have a triangular core that also forms the
>> > > square
>> > and
>> > > sine output.
>> > > There's a second sync'd core for sawtooth output (so no glitch). It's
>> > their
>> > > differential
>> > > transistor tri-to-sine converter that makes the high quality sine
>> > > output.
>> > >
>> > > Moog, Arp, Polyfusion, etc. all used this standard circuit to make
>> > > their
>> > > high quality tri-to-
>> > > sine conversions. Looking at Doepfer schematics, all his oscillators
>> > (except
>> > > the quadrature)
>> > > use that cheap simple diode converter. I'm guessing Dieter chose this
>> > > for
>> > > cost rather than
>> > > quality reasons. I was expecting the expensive High-End VCO to be
>> > > better
>> > > quality.
>> > >
>> > > BTW, I was really tempted to get Tip-Top, but that video shows a
>> > distorted
>> > > sine even
>> > > worse than Doepfer! Makes me wonder about the design quality inside...
>> > >
>> > > --- In Doepfer_a100@ yahoogroups. com <Doepfer_a100% 40yahoogroups. com>,
>> > Argitoth <argitoth@> wrote:
>> > >>
>> > >> So far I think from best to wrost, (but I'm not so sure) it's
>> > >>
>> > >> 1. Plan B VCO Sine (good)
>> > >> 2. Tip Top Audio VCO (a little better than Analogue Systems? Never
>> > >> owned one of these)
>> > >> 3. Analogue Systems VCO Sine (bad)
>> > >> 4. Doepfer A-110 (worse)
>> > >>
>> > >> Laryn91, your vintage MODULES or your vintage tabletop/rack/ keyboard
>> > >> synths? Don't forget that all my filter modules produce very clean
>> > >> sines. Also, I believe the quality of the sine has to do with its
>> > >> oscillator core. I think to get a clean sine requires a second VCO
>> > >> within a VCO... as in, one module has to house two different
>> > >> oscillator cores. One for square,tri,saw, and another separate one
>> > >> for
>> > >> sine... but I don't know anything about circuit boards, this is just
>> > >> my guess. I think this is easily done in a self-contained synth like
>> > >> your vintage gear because it's one whole system, not a bunch of
>> > >> modules... or something... know what I mean?
>> > >>
>> > >
>> > >
>> >
>> > --
>> > www.elanhickler. com
>> >
>> > an,
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>
>
> 

-- 
www.elanhickler. com
 














      

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>  
> But about those "sine" waves... ;-)
> 
> 

Can someone give me an example of an application that requires a
perfect sine wave? Will a perfect sine do special things when used as
an FM or AM source? I don't think there are too many people doing
additive synthesis, but I can see how it would benefit from perfect
sines. 

Another question... why is it that people ascribe a certain sound to
modern modulars? Why a certain sound to vintage? I don't understand
why a modern modular can't sound exactly like a Buchla, or a Serge, or
a fluglehorn, or a pile driver. In theory, with the all of the sound
generating and conditioning elements of a modern modular in place, you
should be able to make any sound. Or have we hit the core issue with
this sine wave discussion? I'm really lost on a lot of these
discussions, but it's probably just because I'm new. 

Thanks,
Doug

A good sine assists in the creation of nice soft waveforms, moves you
away from the buzzy, sharp square/saw paradigm, allows you to create
classic "glassy" sounds, sounds with resonances, soft tones, sounds
not easily copyable. To achieve a cleaner sine out of my oscillators
would require me to dedicate a filter to waveshaping. The triangle is
also not a buzzy waveform and seriously, I'd be happy with a perfect
triangle and wouldn't mind of my sine was imperfect. Analogue Systems
VCO triangle gets near perfect. Plan B Model 15 has the perfect
waveforms IMO. It just doesn't track as good as I'd like. So the point
is, it's absolutely possible for a VCO to meet my perfectionist needs.
I'm guessing and hoping that Tip Top Audio VCO has a perfect triangle
(no buzz) and I'm also guessing that its sine is not buzzy either,
just harmonically rich... but I'd need to hear a frequency sweep to
really tell.

For all sine wave obsessed folks on this list here's some more for you 
to read

http://dubshot.blogspot.com/2008/10/basswatch-3-cult-of-sine-wave-enter.html

especially the links to a sinewave shootout and an article by Bernie 
Hutchins under 'Digital vs. Analog'

> Can someone give me an example of an application that requires a
> perfect sine wave? 

obsessively clean ring modulation? if you really want to get rid of the 
harmonics just filter the damn wave. otherwise go digital

> Another question... why is it that people ascribe a certain sound to
> modern modulars? Why a certain sound to vintage? 

a very coloured and personal comment: why do audiophiles exist? why are 
certain people convinced that the sound quality of their stereo improves 
if they use cable that costs 500 euro per meter

I don't understand
> why a modern modular can't sound exactly like a Buchla, or a Serge, or
> a fluglehorn, or a pile driver. In theory, with the all of the sound
> generating and conditioning elements of a modern modular in place, you
> should be able to make any sound. 

don't forget that a certain circuit can have a certain unique quality.

I assume this is a typo ? :

"and I'm also guessing that its sine is not buzzy either, just  
harmonically rich"


_g

On 25 Nov 2008, at 10:12, Argitoth wrote:

> A good sine assists in the creation of nice soft waveforms, moves you
> away from the buzzy, sharp square/saw paradigm, allows you to create
> classic "glassy" sounds, sounds with resonances, soft tones, sounds
> not easily copyable. To achieve a cleaner sine out of my oscillators
> would require me to dedicate a filter to waveshaping. The triangle is
> also not a buzzy waveform and seriously, I'd be happy with a perfect
> triangle and wouldn't mind of my sine was imperfect. Analogue Systems
> VCO triangle gets near perfect. Plan B Model 15 has the perfect
> waveforms IMO. It just doesn't track as good as I'd like. So the point
> is, it's absolutely possible for a VCO to meet my perfectionist needs.
> I'm guessing and hoping that Tip Top Audio VCO has a perfect triangle
> (no buzz) and I'm also guessing that its sine is not buzzy either,
> just harmonically rich... but I'd need to hear a frequency sweep to
> really tell.

>
>>  Another question... why is it that people ascribe a certain sound to
>  modern modulars? Why a certain sound to vintage?

I would suggest that the individual sound of vintage synths was a 
function of their circuit design, especially the filter design, but 
since many manufacturers copied one another's designs, you might 
expect them to sound identical. You have to look at the selection of 
components, not just materials (such as "germanium") but the 
tolerances of the components and their effects on the overall circuit 
behaviour and stability.
Things like the proximity of power supplies or transformers in the 
synth design and relative smoothness of the power supply can also 
influence things I should think.

The handmade aspect is also a factor, both then and now, but you 
would expect more stability in today's synths. Having said that, 
stability is not always what you want. I just had a couple of hours 
using a Mark II VCS3 and the unpredictability and general sloppiness 
when plugging more pins into the matrix was a joy. The sound seemed 
to have a life of its own! So these older synths (and some of the 
newer ones too), are individual musical instruments with their own 
idiosyncratic sounds. It's maybe not helpful to think of them as 
manufactured/replicated items. Each VCS3 has its own character, just 
like each cello or violin.

Today's manufacturers are giving us the tools to design our own 
unique synths with so many filter types and many more modules 
available than ever before. The drive to eliminate "imperfections" is 
a factor here in that there is almost always a trade off.

Since the phonograph, companies have been selling equipment which is 
less noisy - higher "fidelity".

All I'm saying is beware the hi-fi buff and his synth equivalent. 
This is not a healthy obsession, and making the elimination of noise 
and esoteric behaviour your god is the path to sterility.

(on the other hand, a pure sine wave is a useful theoretical tool :) )

Trevor Pinch's "Analog Days" is an interesting account of the 
evolution of Moog and includes chapters on Arp and others too. Check 
it out.

sean

>For all sine wave obsessed folks on this list here's some more for you
>to read
>
><http://dubshot.blogspot.com/2008/10/basswatch-3-cult-of-sine-wave-enter.html>http://dubshot.blogspot.com/2008/10/basswatch-3-cult-of-sine-wave-enter.html
>
>especially the links to a sinewave shootout and an article by Bernie
>Hutchins under 'Digital vs. Analog'
>
>>  Can someone give me an example of an application that requires a
>>  perfect sine wave?
>
>obsessively clean ring modulation? if you really want to get rid of the
>harmonics just filter the damn wave. otherwise go digital
>
>>  Another question... why is it that people ascribe a certain sound to
>  > modern modulars? Why a certain sound to vintage?
>
>a very coloured and personal comment: why do audiophiles exist? why are
>certain people convinced that the sound quality of their stereo improves
>if they use cable that costs 500 euro per meter
>
>I don't understand
>>  why a modern modular can't sound exactly like a Buchla, or a Serge, or
>>  a fluglehorn, or a pile driver. In theory, with the all of the sound
>>  generating and conditioning elements of a modern modular in place, you
>>  should be able to make any sound.
>
>don't forget that a certain circuit can have a certain unique quality.
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Not at all! I am quite satisfied with the sound of modern synths.  I  
have no problems with the sound of new synths. I bought my first synth  
in 1974, a Synthi VCS3 (for $500 BTW) an have owned almost every major  
brand old school synth since then (Pro-Ones, Oberheim 4 & 2, Arps,  
Rolands, more EMS) and I worked at a Synth/Recording gear store and  
had daily access to big iron I could never afford (Arp 2500s, Emu, Big  
Rolands etc). The sound of perfect waveforms is not the goal - they  
are the start. I have never made a patch that didn't change the  
waveform anyway. I was just amazed at the differences between the  
units I have now. It has been a long time since I put a scope on a  
synth but when I taught the hardware part of the electronic music  
courses at university, the Arp 2500 and Emus had pretty spot on  
waveforms. Like I said earlier, now I understand the comments about  
the different "sounds" of different manufacturers. I can compare it to  
the different sounds of different brands of guitar strings. They all  
work and you work with them to get the sound you want. I just assumed  
that when the different brand VCOs said Sawtooth or Square etc. that  
the waveforms were the same.
The only time I would think it would get in the way is as mentioned by  
another - when used in FM or ring modulation. Control voltage  
applications also. But since I seldom do critical FM work that matters  
little to me. The main differences I see from the big rigs of the past  
and todays models is in other performance interconnection aspects. I  
remember on the 2500 for example that I could keep on adding CV  
sources to a VCO and it would never sag and need re-scaling. I could  
fan a CV source (like the keyboard) to many places and it would just  
work. Nowadays at some point you better have a buffer module or things  
go wacky. It cost more but the buffering was built into the modules  
themselves. Full patching freedom. Except for the EMS stuff that was  
ass-backwards from everything else and had the .32V/oct CV range.
So what I'm saying is that now I'm aware that different brand VCOs  
will sound different from each other. When building a system now you  
will have to have a variety of modules to have a larger variety of  
sounds. Some VCOs will sound warmer, brighter, crisper and all the  
other words we use to describe the various different starting waveforms.
People have to remember that the old-school vintage synth were VERY  
expensive in their day. It is amazing what you can get today and this  
is just a side effect of cost cutting. I don't think it is a problem  
at all. Every instrument takes time to learn fully and to tap it's  
potential. You learn to play the rig you have.

-James


On Nov 24, 2008, at 9:35 PM, Argitoth wrote:

> James Husted, you come from an era of great synths. Can you tell me if
> this lack of quality in today's lower-cost modular synths have
> translated to worse quality in overall sound? Or is it that when I rip
> out a sweet screaming synth bassline or lead that I am getting a sound
> that is honorable in the synth hall of fame? Or will my synth usually
> fall short of greatness? How satisfied are you with your modern
> modular synth?
>
> 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

btw, here's the Tip Top Audio VCO waveform test:
http://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2158

Is it just me or does Analogue Systems VCO produce better traingles and sines?

Thanks James,

Laryn91, I just recorded my synth using the filter as a waveshaper.
Good tracking is not needed, you just have to patch a 1v/oct signal
into the filter's VC, but that VC needs an attenuator. You don't want
to give it full VC. Here's the recording:
http://www.elanhickler.com/misc/filter-waveshaping-test.wav

1. Raw sound without filtering.
2. With filtering (notice how you can't hear low notes, that's how it
should be with sine waves, however the problem is that low notes also
have small peaks)
3. With filtering used as a modulator (the lesser peaks means it's not
good as a modulator, not enough volume anymore)
4. Without filtering used as a pitch modulator (this is how the
modulation should sound)

Hmm... Its anyone's guess if a filter is really worth using as a waveshaper.

Argitoth,
I'm amazed by your tendency to lecture and complain to
people with huge modular systems and decades of experience.
It's really strange.

i would like to suggest the creation of a seperate list or yahoo group 
for any future sine wave purity discussions. you could even join the 
alternate tunings list for obsessive talk about tuning the vco in cents 
and fractions of cents

Argitoth schreef:

> 
> 
> btw, here's the Tip Top Audio VCO waveform test:
> http://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2158 
> <http://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2158>
> 
> Is it just me or does Analogue Systems VCO produce better traingles and 
> sines?
> 
> Thanks James,
> 
> Laryn91, I just recorded my synth using the filter as a waveshaper.
> Good tracking is not needed, you just have to patch a 1v/oct signal
> into the filter's VC, but that VC needs an attenuator. You don't want
> to give it full VC. Here's the recording:
> http://www.elanhickler.com/misc/filter-waveshaping-test.wav 
> <http://www.elanhickler.com/misc/filter-waveshaping-test.wav>
> 
> 1. Raw sound without filtering.
> 2. With filtering (notice how you can't hear low notes, that's how it
> should be with sine waves, however the problem is that low notes also
> have small peaks)
> 3. With filtering used as a modulator (the lesser peaks means it's not
> good as a modulator, not enough volume anymore)
> 4. Without filtering used as a pitch modulator (this is how the
> modulation should sound)
> 
> Hmm... Its anyone's guess if a filter is really worth using as a waveshaper.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com 
> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.10/1810 - Release Date: 11/24/2008 2:36 PM
>

Interesting - the other scope shots show a difference from what  
muffwiggler says. He says "The square wave and saw are perfect as near  
as I can see." and all the square wave shots I have seen have slanted  
tops and bottoms and the Saws have a sag. Maybe there are differences  
in production runs.
My AS VCO has pretty bad overshoot at the bottom of the saw and a  
slight glitch at the top of the triangle. I just looked at one of them  
though. I will try to do some scope shots (pretty tricky with the  
camera I have though).
-James

It would be neat if some massive modular owner, or Shaun at Analogue  
Haven, who has access to all these VCOs could do a scope picture of  
all waveforms at a median frequency (say middle C - 440) and post them  
somewhere. A nice Hi-end scope would be nice. Who knows how much  
distortion is being introduced by my old Techtronics scope also.

-James

On Nov 25, 2008, at 11:12 AM, Argitoth wrote:

> btw, here's the Tip Top Audio VCO waveform test:
> http://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2158
>
> Is it just me or does Analogue Systems VCO produce better traingles  
> and sines?
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Frequency Divider, you are missing the point.

1. Discuss Tip Top Audio VCO waveform quality
2. Compate Top Top Audio VCO to other VCOs
3. Discover that Tip Top Audio sine/tri aren't that great
4. Discover that very few VCOs have much better waveshapes
5. Discuss how one might get a better waveshape <-- we are located here
6. Tell everyone to stop discussing these things <-- Frequency Divider
is located here
7. Everyone ends up hating Frequency Divider for the rest of eternity
<-- we are about to get here.

joke joke.

Nice that you stay cheerful, but discussion IS getting annoying. This  
discussion already joined my list of holywars among with PC vs Mac and  
Gibson vs Fender. I really think discussion about other modulars and  
theory of synthesis are okay in this group, but only until they reach  
certain point.

No offence, Mikhail

On Tue, 25 Nov 2008 21:47:39 +0200, Argitoth <argitoth@gmail.com> wrote:

> Frequency Divider, you are missing the point.
>
> 1. Discuss Tip Top Audio VCO waveform quality
> 2. Compate Top Top Audio VCO to other VCOs
> 3. Discover that Tip Top Audio sine/tri aren't that great
> 4. Discover that very few VCOs have much better waveshapes
> 5. Discuss how one might get a better waveshape <-- we are located here
> 6. Tell everyone to stop discussing these things <-- Frequency Divider
> is located here
> 7. Everyone ends up hating Frequency Divider for the rest of eternity
> <-- we are about to get here.
>
> joke joke.

My thoughts indeed.

On Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 9:12 PM, Herman Pearl <djsoysos@yahoo.com> wrote:

>   Argitoth,
> I'm amazed by your tendency to lecture and complain to
> people with huge modular systems and decades of experience.
> It's really strange.
>
>  
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

+1

This thread has become a brain-sucking ghoul. 
Sent via BlackBerry

-----Original Message-----
From: Frequency Divider <freq.div@xs4all.nl>

Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 20:31:52 
To: <Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [Doepfer_a100] Re: starting a modular - Z3000 waveform quality?


i would like to suggest the creation of a seperate list or yahoo group 
for any future sine wave purity discussions. you could even join the 
alternate tunings list for obsessive talk about tuning the vco in cents 
and fractions of cents

Argitoth schreef:
> 
> 
> btw, here's the Tip Top Audio VCO waveform test:
> http://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2158 
> <http://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2158>
> 
> Is it just me or does Analogue Systems VCO produce better traingles and 
> sines?
> 
> Thanks James,
> 
> Laryn91, I just recorded my synth using the filter as a waveshaper.
> Good tracking is not needed, you just have to patch a 1v/oct signal
> into the filter's VC, but that VC needs an attenuator. You don't want
> to give it full VC. Here's the recording:
> http://www.elanhickler.com/misc/filter-waveshaping-test.wav 
> <http://www.elanhickler.com/misc/filter-waveshaping-test.wav>
> 
> 1. Raw sound without filtering.
> 2. With filtering (notice how you can't hear low notes, that's how it
> should be with sine waves, however the problem is that low notes also
> have small peaks)
> 3. With filtering used as a modulator (the lesser peaks means it's not
> good as a modulator, not enough volume anymore)
> 4. Without filtering used as a pitch modulator (this is how the
> modulation should sound)
> 
> Hmm... Its anyone's guess if a filter is really worth using as a waveshaper.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com 
> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.10/1810 - Release Date: 11/24/2008 2:36 PM
> 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

yes, good idea. i can then NOT join that group...

Bakis Sirros - Parallel Worlds / Interconnected / Memory Geist
[Doepfer_a100] group owner
www. parallel - worlds - music. com
www. myspace. com/ parallelworldsmusic
www. myspace. com/ interconnectedmusic
www. myspace. com/ memorygeist
www. DiN. org. uk
www. musicamaximamagnetica. com
www. shimarecords. co. uk
www. rubberrecords. gr
Athens - Greece

--- On Tue, 11/25/08, Frequency Divider <freq.div@xs4all.nl> wrote:

From: Frequency Divider <freq.div@xs4all.nl>
Subject: Re: [Doepfer_a100] Re: starting a modular - Z3000 waveform quality?
To: Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, November 25, 2008, 9:31 PM






i would like to suggest the creation of a seperate list or yahoo group 
for any future sine wave purity discussions. you could even join the 
alternate tunings list for obsessive talk about tuning the vco in cents 
and fractions of cents

Argitoth schreef:
> 
> 
> btw, here's the Tip Top Audio VCO waveform test:
> http://www.muffwigg ler.com/forum/ viewtopic. php?t=2158 
> <http://www.muffwigg ler.com/forum/ viewtopic. php?t=2158>
> 
> Is it just me or does Analogue Systems VCO produce better traingles and 
> sines?
> 
> Thanks James,
> 
> Laryn91, I just recorded my synth using the filter as a waveshaper.
> Good tracking is not needed, you just have to patch a 1v/oct signal
> into the filter's VC, but that VC needs an attenuator. You don't want
> to give it full VC. Here's the recording:
> http://www.elanhick ler.com/misc/ filter-waveshapi ng-test.wav 
> <http://www.elanhick ler.com/misc/ filter-waveshapi ng-test.wav>
> 
> 1. Raw sound without filtering.
> 2. With filtering (notice how you can't hear low notes, that's how it
> should be with sine waves, however the problem is that low notes also
> have small peaks)
> 3. With filtering used as a modulator (the lesser peaks means it's not
> good as a modulator, not enough volume anymore)
> 4. Without filtering used as a pitch modulator (this is how the
> modulation should sound)
> 
> Hmm... Its anyone's guess if a filter is really worth using as a waveshaper.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
> 
> 
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg. com 
> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.10/1810 - Release Date: 11/24/2008 2:36 PM
> 
 














      

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

im definitely satisfied with my analog systems VCO. I'm not sure if I
could buy Tip Top Audio VCO, it would have slightly different pitch
tracking... hmm.

well just check out the non-buzzy tones I was getting out of my Analog
Systems VCO today: http://www.elanhickler.com/misc/analog-downbeat.mp3

> Can someone give me an example of an application that requires
> a perfect sine wave? Will a perfect sine do special things when
> used as an FM or AM source? I don't think there are too many
> people doing additive synthesis, but I can see how it would
> benefit from perfect sines.

In DX7-style FM synthesis perfect sine waves are important. I once 
used a softsynth, where second order parabolic functions were used as 
approximations for sine. The results were not satisfying, until the 
issue was fixed by using higher (up to 8th) order parabolic functions.

Maybe ring modulation and frequency shifting benefit from pure sine 
too.

My Cwejman VCO-6 and VCO-2RM make good sine waves by analog 
standards. They look perfect in my oscilloscope. However, one can 
hear, that VCO-6 has some "buzzy" higher harmonics present. It is not 
immediately noticable though. On the other hand, VCO-2RM draws 
attention to more pleasant lower harmonics. I would say VCO-6 is 
closer to perfect sine.
 
Z3000 sine certainly doesn't look perfect. If people like it, I would 
guess it is not too buzzy.

Skewed sine is is different from triangle or filtered saw and can 
sound like a vintage Theremin. It should get progressively more 
skewed (brighter) at lower frequencies though.

or perhaps we can just ban argitoth? the guy's a trainwreck, spoils 
every message board he signs up to with inane opinions presented as 
fact and a TOTAL lack of self awareness. 


--- In Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com, Bakis Sirros 
<synth_freak_2000@...> wrote:
>
> yes, good idea. i can then NOT join that group...
> 
> Bakis Sirros - Parallel Worlds / Interconnected / Memory Geist
> [Doepfer_a100] group owner
> www. parallel - worlds - music. com
> www. myspace. com/ parallelworldsmusic
> www. myspace. com/ interconnectedmusic
> www. myspace. com/ memorygeist
> www. DiN. org. uk
> www. musicamaximamagnetica. com
> www. shimarecords. co. uk
> www. rubberrecords. gr
> Athens - Greece
> 
> --- On Tue, 11/25/08, Frequency Divider <freq.div@...> wrote:
> 
> From: Frequency Divider <freq.div@...>
> Subject: Re: [Doepfer_a100] Re: starting a modular - Z3000 waveform 
quality?
> To: Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Tuesday, November 25, 2008, 9:31 PM
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> i would like to suggest the creation of a seperate list or yahoo 
group 
> for any future sine wave purity discussions. you could even join 
the 
> alternate tunings list for obsessive talk about tuning the vco in 
cents 
> and fractions of cents
> 
> Argitoth schreef:
> > 
> > 
> > btw, here's the Tip Top Audio VCO waveform test:
> > http://www.muffwigg ler.com/forum/ viewtopic. php?t=2158 
> > <http://www.muffwigg ler.com/forum/ viewtopic. php?t=2158>
> > 
> > Is it just me or does Analogue Systems VCO produce better 
traingles and 
> > sines?
> > 
> > Thanks James,
> > 
> > Laryn91, I just recorded my synth using the filter as a 
waveshaper.
> > Good tracking is not needed, you just have to patch a 1v/oct 
signal
> > into the filter's VC, but that VC needs an attenuator. You don't 
want
> > to give it full VC. Here's the recording:
> > http://www.elanhick ler.com/misc/ filter-waveshapi ng-test.wav 
> > <http://www.elanhick ler.com/misc/ filter-waveshapi ng-test.wav>
> > 
> > 1. Raw sound without filtering.
> > 2. With filtering (notice how you can't hear low notes, that's 
how it
> > should be with sine waves, however the problem is that low notes 
also
> > have small peaks)
> > 3. With filtering used as a modulator (the lesser peaks means 
it's not
> > good as a modulator, not enough volume anymore)
> > 4. Without filtering used as a pitch modulator (this is how the
> > modulation should sound)
> > 
> > Hmm... Its anyone's guess if a filter is really worth using as a 
waveshaper.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
> > 
> > 
> > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg. com 
> > Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.10/1810 - Release Date: 
11/24/2008 2:36 PM

> > 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>       
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Answer to this direct to Mr. kovski774 and Bakis.

regards, Florian

I would say just ignore him. He's just 19 years old so please excuse his
manners.
;-)



On Wed, Nov 26, 2008 at 12:42 PM, Florian Anwander <fanwander@mnet-online.de
> wrote:

>   Answer to this direct to Mr. kovski774 and Bakis.
>
> regards, Florian
>  
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Why ban people? I found the debate lively at first, although it later turned somewhat obnoxious. Dieter Doepfer has given an excellent reply and I think matters should rest there.

York




________________________________

From: kovski774 <kovski@gmail.com>
To: Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 6:30:55 AM
Subject: [Doepfer_a100] Re: starting a modular - Z3000 waveform quality?


or perhaps we can just ban argitoth? the guy's a trainwreck, spoils 
every message board he signs up to with inane opinions presented as 
fact and a TOTAL lack of self awareness. 

--- In Doepfer_a100@ yahoogroups. com, Bakis Sirros 
<synth_freak_ 2000@...> wrote:
>
> yes, good idea. i can then NOT join that group...
> 
> Bakis Sirros - Parallel Worlds / Interconnected / Memory Geist
> [Doepfer_a100] group owner
> www. parallel - worlds - music. com
> www. myspace. com/ parallelworldsmusic
> www. myspace. com/ interconnectedmusic
> www. myspace. com/ memorygeist
> www. DiN. org. uk
> www. musicamaximamagneti ca. com
> www. shimarecords. co. uk
> www. rubberrecords. gr
> Athens - Greece
> 
> --- On Tue, 11/25/08, Frequency Divider <freq.div@.. .> wrote:
> 
> From: Frequency Divider <freq.div@.. .>
> Subject: Re: [Doepfer_a100] Re: starting a modular - Z3000 waveform 
quality?
> To: Doepfer_a100@ yahoogroups. com
> Date: Tuesday, November 25, 2008, 9:31 PM
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> i would like to suggest the creation of a seperate list or yahoo 
group 
> for any future sine wave purity discussions. you could even join 
the 
> alternate tunings list for obsessive talk about tuning the vco in 
cents 
> and fractions of cents
> 
> Argitoth schreef:
> > 
> > 
> > btw, here's the Tip Top Audio VCO waveform test:
> > http://www.muffwigg ler.com/forum/ viewtopic. php?t=2158 
> > <http://www.muffwigg ler.com/forum/ viewtopic. php?t=2158>
> > 
> > Is it just me or does Analogue Systems VCO produce better 
traingles and 
> > sines?
> > 
> > Thanks James,
> > 
> > Laryn91, I just recorded my synth using the filter as a 
waveshaper.
> > Good tracking is not needed, you just have to patch a 1v/oct 
signal
> > into the filter's VC, but that VC needs an attenuator. You don't 
want
> > to give it full VC. Here's the recording:
> > http://www.elanhick ler.com/misc/ filter-waveshapi ng-test.wav 
> > <http://www.elanhick ler.com/misc/ filter-waveshapi ng-test.wav>
> > 
> > 1. Raw sound without filtering.
> > 2. With filtering (notice how you can't hear low notes, that's 
how it
> > should be with sine waves, however the problem is that low notes 
also
> > have small peaks)
> > 3. With filtering used as a modulator (the lesser peaks means 
it's not
> > good as a modulator, not enough volume anymore)
> > 4. Without filtering used as a pitch modulator (this is how the
> > modulation should sound)
> > 
> > Hmm... Its anyone's guess if a filter is really worth using as a 
waveshaper.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
> > 
> > 
> > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg. com 
> > Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.10/1810 - Release Date: 
11/24/2008 2:36 PM
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

    


      

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I originally asked if anybody sold a VCO with undistorted sine outputs. In summary here 
are the replies I got:

1 - Manufactures claim they can spec any wave with rounded peaks as "Sine". Even if you 
can clearly hear even harmonic distortion - any roundish looking shape is a close enough 
to be called a Sine. 

2 - Analog vs. Digital religion states that analog must always remain imprecise because 
that is its character. We don't want a clean analog wave with no added harmonics in our 
system because that would make it digital.

3 - Finally the topic police posted their overall disapproval of this discussion. Even 
banning members was suggested!

So I learned if you want a real sine wave (as defined by Fourier), get Plan-B Model 15... 





--- In Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com, york luethje <ybl@...> wrote:
>
> Why ban people? I found the debate lively at first, although it later turned somewhat 
obnoxious. Dieter Doepfer has given an excellent reply and I think matters should rest 
there.

> 
> York
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ________________________________
> From: kovski774 <kovski@...>
> To: Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 6:30:55 AM
> Subject: [Doepfer_a100] Re: starting a modular - Z3000 waveform quality?
> 
> 
> or perhaps we can just ban argitoth? the guy's a trainwreck, spoils 
> every message board he signs up to with inane opinions presented as 
> fact and a TOTAL lack of self awareness. 
> 
> --- In Doepfer_a100@ yahoogroups. com, Bakis Sirros 
> <synth_freak_ 2000@> wrote:
> >
> > yes, good idea. i can then NOT join that group...
> > 
> > Bakis Sirros - Parallel Worlds / Interconnected / Memory Geist
> > [Doepfer_a100] group owner
> > www. parallel - worlds - music. com
> > www. myspace. com/ parallelworldsmusic
> > www. myspace. com/ interconnectedmusic
> > www. myspace. com/ memorygeist
> > www. DiN. org. uk
> > www. musicamaximamagneti ca. com
> > www. shimarecords. co. uk
> > www. rubberrecords. gr
> > Athens - Greece
> > 
> > --- On Tue, 11/25/08, Frequency Divider <freq.div@ .> wrote:
> > 
> > From: Frequency Divider <freq.div@ .>
> > Subject: Re: [Doepfer_a100] Re: starting a modular - Z3000 waveform 
> quality?
> > To: Doepfer_a100@ yahoogroups. com
> > Date: Tuesday, November 25, 2008, 9:31 PM
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > i would like to suggest the creation of a seperate list or yahoo 
> group 
> > for any future sine wave purity discussions. you could even join 
> the 
> > alternate tunings list for obsessive talk about tuning the vco in 
> cents 
> > and fractions of cents
> > 
> > Argitoth schreef:
> > > 
> > > 
> > > btw, here's the Tip Top Audio VCO waveform test:
> > > http://www.muffwigg ler.com/forum/ viewtopic. php?t=2158 
> > > <http://www.muffwigg ler.com/forum/ viewtopic. php?t=2158>
> > > 
> > > Is it just me or does Analogue Systems VCO produce better 
> traingles and 
> > > sines?
> > > 
> > > Thanks James,
> > > 
> > > Laryn91, I just recorded my synth using the filter as a 
> waveshaper.
> > > Good tracking is not needed, you just have to patch a 1v/oct 
> signal
> > > into the filter's VC, but that VC needs an attenuator. You don't 
> want
> > > to give it full VC. Here's the recording:
> > > http://www.elanhick ler.com/misc/ filter-waveshapi ng-test.wav 
> > > <http://www.elanhick ler.com/misc/ filter-waveshapi ng-test.wav>
> > > 
> > > 1. Raw sound without filtering.
> > > 2. With filtering (notice how you can't hear low notes, that's 
> how it
> > > should be with sine waves, however the problem is that low notes 
> also
> > > have small peaks)
> > > 3. With filtering used as a modulator (the lesser peaks means 
> it's not
> > > good as a modulator, not enough volume anymore)
> > > 4. Without filtering used as a pitch modulator (this is how the
> > > modulation should sound)
> > > 
> > > Hmm... Its anyone's guess if a filter is really worth using as a 
> waveshaper.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
> > > 
> > > 
> > > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg. com 
> > > Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.10/1810 - Release Date: 
> 11/24/2008 2:36 PM
> > > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> 
>     
> 
> 
>       
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Ah... maybe YOU are the one not reading well ;-)

I asked about a VCO (not LFO).


--- In Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com, achtung_999 <heinrich.himmelwasser@...> 
wrote:

>
> You are not reading well:
> I also said: "Or get an 143-9" I even attached a picture of its near perfect
> sine waves.
> Or wait for Dieter's quadrature VCO.
> 
> And yes the 143-9 does not track well in the 1v/oct world (for anyone
> bothering with that kind of futilities).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Fri, Nov 28, 2008 at 6:17 PM, laryn91 <caymus91@...> wrote:
> 
> >   I originally asked if anybody sold a VCO with undistorted sine outputs.
> > In summary here
> > are the replies I got:
> >
> > 1 - Manufactures claim they can spec any wave with rounded peaks as "Sine".
> > Even if you
> > can clearly hear even harmonic distortion - any roundish looking shape is a
> > close enough
> > to be called a Sine.
> >
> > 2 - Analog vs. Digital religion states that analog must always remain
> > imprecise because
> > that is its character. We don't want a clean analog wave with no added
> > harmonics in our
> > system because that would make it digital.
> >
> > 3 - Finally the topic police posted their overall disapproval of this
> > discussion. Even
> > banning members was suggested!
> >
> > So I learned if you want a real sine wave (as defined by Fourier), get
> > Plan-B Model 15...
> >
> > --- In Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com <Doepfer_a100%40yahoogroups.com>, york
> > luethje <ybl@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Why ban people? I found the debate lively at first, although it later
> > turned somewhat
> > obnoxious. Dieter Doepfer has given an excellent reply and I think matters
> > should rest
> > there.
> > >
> > > York
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: kovski774 <kovski@>
> >
> > > To: Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com <Doepfer_a100%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 6:30:55 AM
> > > Subject: [Doepfer_a100] Re: starting a modular - Z3000 waveform quality?
> > >
> > >
> > > or perhaps we can just ban argitoth? the guy's a trainwreck, spoils
> > > every message board he signs up to with inane opinions presented as
> > > fact and a TOTAL lack of self awareness.
> > >
> > > --- In Doepfer_a100@ yahoogroups. com, Bakis Sirros
> > > <synth_freak_ 2000@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > yes, good idea. i can then NOT join that group...
> > > >
> > > > Bakis Sirros - Parallel Worlds / Interconnected / Memory Geist
> > > > [Doepfer_a100] group owner
> > > > www. parallel - worlds - music. com
> > > > www. myspace. com/ parallelworldsmusic
> > > > www. myspace. com/ interconnectedmusic
> > > > www. myspace. com/ memorygeist
> > > > www. DiN. org. uk
> > > > www. musicamaximamagneti ca. com
> > > > www. shimarecords. co. uk
> > > > www. rubberrecords. gr
> > > > Athens - Greece
> > > >
> > > > --- On Tue, 11/25/08, Frequency Divider <freq.div@ .> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > From: Frequency Divider <freq.div@ .>
> > > > Subject: Re: [Doepfer_a100] Re: starting a modular - Z3000 waveform
> > > quality?
> > > > To: Doepfer_a100@ yahoogroups. com
> > > > Date: Tuesday, November 25, 2008, 9:31 PM
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > i would like to suggest the creation of a seperate list or yahoo
> > > group
> > > > for any future sine wave purity discussions. you could even join
> > > the
> > > > alternate tunings list for obsessive talk about tuning the vco in
> > > cents
> > > > and fractions of cents
> > > >
> > > > Argitoth schreef:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > btw, here's the Tip Top Audio VCO waveform test:
> > > > > http://www.muffwigg ler.com/forum/ viewtopic. php?t=2158
> > > > > <http://www.muffwigg ler.com/forum/ viewtopic. php?t=2158>
> > > > >
> > > > > Is it just me or does Analogue Systems VCO produce better
> > > traingles and
> > > > > sines?
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks James,
> > > > >
> > > > > Laryn91, I just recorded my synth using the filter as a
> > > waveshaper.
> > > > > Good tracking is not needed, you just have to patch a 1v/oct
> > > signal
> > > > > into the filter's VC, but that VC needs an attenuator. You don't
> > > want
> > > > > to give it full VC. Here's the recording:
> > > > > http://www.elanhick ler.com/misc/ filter-waveshapi ng-test.wav
> > > > > <http://www.elanhick ler.com/misc/ filter-waveshapi ng-test.wav>
> > > > >
> > > > > 1. Raw sound without filtering.
> > > > > 2. With filtering (notice how you can't hear low notes, that's
> > > how it
> > > > > should be with sine waves, however the problem is that low notes
> > > also
> > > > > have small peaks)
> > > > > 3. With filtering used as a modulator (the lesser peaks means
> > > it's not
> > > > > good as a modulator, not enough volume anymore)
> > > > > 4. Without filtering used as a pitch modulator (this is how the
> > > > > modulation should sound)
> > > > >
> > > > > Hmm... Its anyone's guess if a filter is really worth using as a
> > > waveshaper.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > > > > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg. com
> > > > > Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.10/1810 - Release Date:
> > > 11/24/2008 2:36 PM
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> >
> >  
> >
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

My ZO starts to distort at lower freqs (looks like a square with rounded corners). So it's a 
sine for only part of its range.

I'm not so much interested about whose *distorted* sine wave sounds best, but who's sine 
output actually has no audible harmonic distortion (i.e fundamental only).



--- In Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com, Bakis Sirros <synth_freak_2000@...> wrote:
>
> or maybe Cyndustries Zeroscillator...i think that should also have a very good sinewave.
>  
> that said, i also really like a lot the sine of the A111's (i use them all the time!) and the 
sine of the AFG (regarding Euro).
> 
> 
> Bakis Sirros - Parallel Worlds / Interconnected / Memory Geist
> [Doepfer_a100] group owner
> www. parallel - worlds - music. com
> www. myspace. com/ parallelworldsmusic
> www. myspace. com/ interconnectedmusic
> www. myspace. com/ memorygeist
> www. DiN. org. uk
> www. musicamaximamagnetica. com
> www. shimarecords. co. uk
> www. rubberrecords. gr
> Athens - Greece
> 
> --- On Fri, 11/28/08, laryn91 <caymus91@...> wrote:
> 
> From: laryn91 <caymus91@...>
> Subject: [Doepfer_a100] Re: starting a modular - Z3000 waveform quality?
> To: Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Friday, November 28, 2008, 7:17 PM
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I originally asked if anybody sold a VCO with undistorted sine outputs. In summary here 
> are the replies I got:
> 
> 1 - Manufactures claim they can spec any wave with rounded peaks as "Sine". Even if 
you 
> can clearly hear even harmonic distortion - any roundish looking shape is a close 
enough 

> to be called a Sine. 
> 
> 2 - Analog vs. Digital religion states that analog must always remain imprecise because 
> that is its character. We don't want a clean analog wave with no added harmonics in our 
> system because that would make it digital.
> 
> 3 - Finally the topic police posted their overall disapproval of this discussion. Even 
> banning members was suggested!
> 
> So I learned if you want a real sine wave (as defined by Fourier), get Plan-B Model 15... 
> 
> --- In Doepfer_a100@ yahoogroups. com, york luethje <ybl@> wrote:
> >
> > Why ban people? I found the debate lively at first, although it later turned somewhat 
> obnoxious. Dieter Doepfer has given an excellent reply and I think matters should rest 
> there.
> > 
> > York
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > ____________ _________ _________ __
> > From: kovski774 <kovski@>
> > To: Doepfer_a100@ yahoogroups. com
> > Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 6:30:55 AM
> > Subject: [Doepfer_a100] Re: starting a modular - Z3000 waveform quality?
> > 
> > 
> > or perhaps we can just ban argitoth? the guy's a trainwreck, spoils 
> > every message board he signs up to with inane opinions presented as 
> > fact and a TOTAL lack of self awareness. 
> > 
> > --- In Doepfer_a100@ yahoogroups. com, Bakis Sirros 
> > <synth_freak_ 2000@> wrote:
> > >
> > > yes, good idea. i can then NOT join that group...
> > > 
> > > Bakis Sirros - Parallel Worlds / Interconnected / Memory Geist
> > > [Doepfer_a100] group owner
> > > www. parallel - worlds - music. com
> > > www. myspace. com/ parallelworldsmusic
> > > www. myspace. com/ interconnectedmusic
> > > www. myspace. com/ memorygeist
> > > www. DiN. org. uk
> > > www. musicamaximamagneti ca. com
> > > www. shimarecords. co. uk
> > > www. rubberrecords. gr
> > > Athens - Greece
> > > 
> > > --- On Tue, 11/25/08, Frequency Divider <freq.div@ .> wrote:
> > > 
> > > From: Frequency Divider <freq.div@ .>
> > > Subject: Re: [Doepfer_a100] Re: starting a modular - Z3000 waveform 
> > quality?
> > > To: Doepfer_a100@ yahoogroups. com
> > > Date: Tuesday, November 25, 2008, 9:31 PM
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > i would like to suggest the creation of a seperate list or yahoo 
> > group 
> > > for any future sine wave purity discussions. you could even join 
> > the 
> > > alternate tunings list for obsessive talk about tuning the vco in 
> > cents 
> > > and fractions of cents
> > > 
> > > Argitoth schreef:
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > btw, here's the Tip Top Audio VCO waveform test:
> > > > http://www.muffwigg ler.com/forum/ viewtopic. php?t=2158 
> > > > <http://www.muffwigg ler.com/forum/ viewtopic. php?t=2158>
> > > > 
> > > > Is it just me or does Analogue Systems VCO produce better 
> > traingles and 
> > > > sines?
> > > > 
> > > > Thanks James,
> > > > 
> > > > Laryn91, I just recorded my synth using the filter as a 
> > waveshaper.
> > > > Good tracking is not needed, you just have to patch a 1v/oct 
> > signal
> > > > into the filter's VC, but that VC needs an attenuator. You don't 
> > want
> > > > to give it full VC. Here's the recording:
> > > > http://www.elanhick ler.com/misc/ filter-waveshapi ng-test.wav 
> > > > <http://www.elanhick ler.com/misc/ filter-waveshapi ng-test.wav>
> > > > 
> > > > 1. Raw sound without filtering.
> > > > 2. With filtering (notice how you can't hear low notes, that's 
> > how it
> > > > should be with sine waves, however the problem is that low notes 
> > also
> > > > have small peaks)
> > > > 3. With filtering used as a modulator (the lesser peaks means 
> > it's not
> > > > good as a modulator, not enough volume anymore)
> > > > 4. Without filtering used as a pitch modulator (this is how the
> > > > modulation should sound)
> > > > 
> > > > Hmm... Its anyone's guess if a filter is really worth using as a 
> > waveshaper.
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > > > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg. com 
> > > > Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.10/1810 - Release Date: 
> > 11/24/2008 2:36 PM
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>       
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

You are not reading well:
I also said: "Or get an 143-9" I even attached a picture of its near perfect
sine waves.
Or wait for Dieter's quadrature VCO.

And yes the 143-9 does not track well in the 1v/oct world (for anyone
bothering with that kind of futilities).






On Fri, Nov 28, 2008 at 6:17 PM, laryn91 <caymus91@mac.com> wrote:

>   I originally asked if anybody sold a VCO with undistorted sine outputs.
> In summary here
> are the replies I got:
>
> 1 - Manufactures claim they can spec any wave with rounded peaks as "Sine".
> Even if you
> can clearly hear even harmonic distortion - any roundish looking shape is a
> close enough
> to be called a Sine.
>
> 2 - Analog vs. Digital religion states that analog must always remain
> imprecise because
> that is its character. We don't want a clean analog wave with no added
> harmonics in our
> system because that would make it digital.
>
> 3 - Finally the topic police posted their overall disapproval of this
> discussion. Even
> banning members was suggested!
>
> So I learned if you want a real sine wave (as defined by Fourier), get
> Plan-B Model 15...
>
> --- In Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com <Doepfer_a100%40yahoogroups.com>, york
> luethje <ybl@...> wrote:
> >
> > Why ban people? I found the debate lively at first, although it later
> turned somewhat
> obnoxious. Dieter Doepfer has given an excellent reply and I think matters
> should rest
> there.
> >
> > York
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: kovski774 <kovski@...>
>
> > To: Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com <Doepfer_a100%40yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 6:30:55 AM
> > Subject: [Doepfer_a100] Re: starting a modular - Z3000 waveform quality?
> >
> >
> > or perhaps we can just ban argitoth? the guy's a trainwreck, spoils
> > every message board he signs up to with inane opinions presented as
> > fact and a TOTAL lack of self awareness.
> >
> > --- In Doepfer_a100@ yahoogroups. com, Bakis Sirros
> > <synth_freak_ 2000@> wrote:
> > >
> > > yes, good idea. i can then NOT join that group...
> > >
> > > Bakis Sirros - Parallel Worlds / Interconnected / Memory Geist
> > > [Doepfer_a100] group owner
> > > www. parallel - worlds - music. com
> > > www. myspace. com/ parallelworldsmusic
> > > www. myspace. com/ interconnectedmusic
> > > www. myspace. com/ memorygeist
> > > www. DiN. org. uk
> > > www. musicamaximamagneti ca. com
> > > www. shimarecords. co. uk
> > > www. rubberrecords. gr
> > > Athens - Greece
> > >
> > > --- On Tue, 11/25/08, Frequency Divider <freq.div@ .> wrote:
> > >
> > > From: Frequency Divider <freq.div@ .>
> > > Subject: Re: [Doepfer_a100] Re: starting a modular - Z3000 waveform
> > quality?
> > > To: Doepfer_a100@ yahoogroups. com
> > > Date: Tuesday, November 25, 2008, 9:31 PM
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > i would like to suggest the creation of a seperate list or yahoo
> > group
> > > for any future sine wave purity discussions. you could even join
> > the
> > > alternate tunings list for obsessive talk about tuning the vco in
> > cents
> > > and fractions of cents
> > >
> > > Argitoth schreef:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > btw, here's the Tip Top Audio VCO waveform test:
> > > > http://www.muffwigg ler.com/forum/ viewtopic. php?t=2158
> > > > <http://www.muffwigg ler.com/forum/ viewtopic. php?t=2158>
> > > >
> > > > Is it just me or does Analogue Systems VCO produce better
> > traingles and
> > > > sines?
> > > >
> > > > Thanks James,
> > > >
> > > > Laryn91, I just recorded my synth using the filter as a
> > waveshaper.
> > > > Good tracking is not needed, you just have to patch a 1v/oct
> > signal
> > > > into the filter's VC, but that VC needs an attenuator. You don't
> > want
> > > > to give it full VC. Here's the recording:
> > > > http://www.elanhick ler.com/misc/ filter-waveshapi ng-test.wav
> > > > <http://www.elanhick ler.com/misc/ filter-waveshapi ng-test.wav>
> > > >
> > > > 1. Raw sound without filtering.
> > > > 2. With filtering (notice how you can't hear low notes, that's
> > how it
> > > > should be with sine waves, however the problem is that low notes
> > also
> > > > have small peaks)
> > > > 3. With filtering used as a modulator (the lesser peaks means
> > it's not
> > > > good as a modulator, not enough volume anymore)
> > > > 4. Without filtering used as a pitch modulator (this is how the
> > > > modulation should sound)
> > > >
> > > > Hmm... Its anyone's guess if a filter is really worth using as a
> > waveshaper.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > > > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg. com
> > > > Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.10/1810 - Release Date:
> > 11/24/2008 2:36 PM
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>  
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

or maybe Cyndustries Zeroscillator...i think that should also have a very good sinewave.
 
that said, i also really like a lot the sine of the A111's (i use them all the time!) and the sine of the AFG (regarding Euro).


Bakis Sirros - Parallel Worlds / Interconnected / Memory Geist
[Doepfer_a100] group owner
www. parallel - worlds - music. com
www. myspace. com/ parallelworldsmusic
www. myspace. com/ interconnectedmusic
www. myspace. com/ memorygeist
www. DiN. org. uk
www. musicamaximamagnetica. com
www. shimarecords. co. uk
www. rubberrecords. gr
Athens - Greece

--- On Fri, 11/28/08, laryn91 <caymus91@mac.com> wrote:

From: laryn91 <caymus91@mac.com>
Subject: [Doepfer_a100] Re: starting a modular - Z3000 waveform quality?
To: Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, November 28, 2008, 7:17 PM






I originally asked if anybody sold a VCO with undistorted sine outputs. In summary here 
are the replies I got:

1 - Manufactures claim they can spec any wave with rounded peaks as "Sine". Even if you 
can clearly hear even harmonic distortion - any roundish looking shape is a close enough 
to be called a Sine. 

2 - Analog vs. Digital religion states that analog must always remain imprecise because 
that is its character. We don't want a clean analog wave with no added harmonics in our 
system because that would make it digital.

3 - Finally the topic police posted their overall disapproval of this discussion. Even 
banning members was suggested!

So I learned if you want a real sine wave (as defined by Fourier), get Plan-B Model 15... 

--- In Doepfer_a100@ yahoogroups. com, york luethje <ybl@...> wrote:
>
> Why ban people? I found the debate lively at first, although it later turned somewhat 
obnoxious. Dieter Doepfer has given an excellent reply and I think matters should rest 
there.
> 
> York
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ____________ _________ _________ __
> From: kovski774 <kovski@...>
> To: Doepfer_a100@ yahoogroups. com
> Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 6:30:55 AM
> Subject: [Doepfer_a100] Re: starting a modular - Z3000 waveform quality?
> 
> 
> or perhaps we can just ban argitoth? the guy's a trainwreck, spoils 
> every message board he signs up to with inane opinions presented as 
> fact and a TOTAL lack of self awareness. 
> 
> --- In Doepfer_a100@ yahoogroups. com, Bakis Sirros 
> <synth_freak_ 2000@> wrote:
> >
> > yes, good idea. i can then NOT join that group...
> > 
> > Bakis Sirros - Parallel Worlds / Interconnected / Memory Geist
> > [Doepfer_a100] group owner
> > www. parallel - worlds - music. com
> > www. myspace. com/ parallelworldsmusic
> > www. myspace. com/ interconnectedmusic
> > www. myspace. com/ memorygeist
> > www. DiN. org. uk
> > www. musicamaximamagneti ca. com
> > www. shimarecords. co. uk
> > www. rubberrecords. gr
> > Athens - Greece
> > 
> > --- On Tue, 11/25/08, Frequency Divider <freq.div@ .> wrote:
> > 
> > From: Frequency Divider <freq.div@ .>
> > Subject: Re: [Doepfer_a100] Re: starting a modular - Z3000 waveform 
> quality?
> > To: Doepfer_a100@ yahoogroups. com
> > Date: Tuesday, November 25, 2008, 9:31 PM
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > i would like to suggest the creation of a seperate list or yahoo 
> group 
> > for any future sine wave purity discussions. you could even join 
> the 
> > alternate tunings list for obsessive talk about tuning the vco in 
> cents 
> > and fractions of cents
> > 
> > Argitoth schreef:
> > > 
> > > 
> > > btw, here's the Tip Top Audio VCO waveform test:
> > > http://www.muffwigg ler.com/forum/ viewtopic. php?t=2158 
> > > <http://www.muffwigg ler.com/forum/ viewtopic. php?t=2158>
> > > 
> > > Is it just me or does Analogue Systems VCO produce better 
> traingles and 
> > > sines?
> > > 
> > > Thanks James,
> > > 
> > > Laryn91, I just recorded my synth using the filter as a 
> waveshaper.
> > > Good tracking is not needed, you just have to patch a 1v/oct 
> signal
> > > into the filter's VC, but that VC needs an attenuator. You don't 
> want
> > > to give it full VC. Here's the recording:
> > > http://www.elanhick ler.com/misc/ filter-waveshapi ng-test.wav 
> > > <http://www.elanhick ler.com/misc/ filter-waveshapi ng-test.wav>
> > > 
> > > 1. Raw sound without filtering.
> > > 2. With filtering (notice how you can't hear low notes, that's 
> how it
> > > should be with sine waves, however the problem is that low notes 
> also
> > > have small peaks)
> > > 3. With filtering used as a modulator (the lesser peaks means 
> it's not
> > > good as a modulator, not enough volume anymore)
> > > 4. Without filtering used as a pitch modulator (this is how the
> > > modulation should sound)
> > > 
> > > Hmm... Its anyone's guess if a filter is really worth using as a 
> waveshaper.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
> > > 
> > > 
> > > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg. com 
> > > Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.10/1810 - Release Date: 
> 11/24/2008 2:36 PM
> > > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

 














      

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

maybe you should expand your horizons a bit.It acts quite nicely as a VCO.
It actually smashes the A110 concerning sinewaves.
But be like this man..
Your loss.



On Fri, Nov 28, 2008 at 6:41 PM, laryn91 <caymus91@mac.com> wrote:

>   Ah... maybe YOU are the one not reading well ;-)
>
> I asked about a VCO (not LFO).
>
>
> --- In Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com <Doepfer_a100%40yahoogroups.com>,
> achtung_999 <heinrich.himmelwasser@...>
> wrote:
> >
> > You are not reading well:
> > I also said: "Or get an 143-9" I even attached a picture of its near
> perfect
> > sine waves.
> > Or wait for Dieter's quadrature VCO.
> >
> > And yes the 143-9 does not track well in the 1v/oct world (for anyone
> > bothering with that kind of futilities).
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Nov 28, 2008 at 6:17 PM, laryn91 <caymus91@...> wrote:
> >
> > > I originally asked if anybody sold a VCO with undistorted sine outputs.
> > > In summary here
> > > are the replies I got:
> > >
> > > 1 - Manufactures claim they can spec any wave with rounded peaks as
> "Sine".
> > > Even if you
> > > can clearly hear even harmonic distortion - any roundish looking shape
> is a
> > > close enough
> > > to be called a Sine.
> > >
> > > 2 - Analog vs. Digital religion states that analog must always remain
> > > imprecise because
> > > that is its character. We don't want a clean analog wave with no added
> > > harmonics in our
> > > system because that would make it digital.
> > >
> > > 3 - Finally the topic police posted their overall disapproval of this
> > > discussion. Even
> > > banning members was suggested!
> > >
> > > So I learned if you want a real sine wave (as defined by Fourier), get
> > > Plan-B Model 15...
> > >
> > > --- In Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com <Doepfer_a100%40yahoogroups.com><Doepfer_a100%
> 40yahoogroups.com>, york
> > > luethje <ybl@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Why ban people? I found the debate lively at first, although it later
> > > turned somewhat
> > > obnoxious. Dieter Doepfer has given an excellent reply and I think
> matters
> > > should rest
> > > there.
> > > >
> > > > York
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ________________________________
> > > > From: kovski774 <kovski@>
> > >
> > > > To: Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com <Doepfer_a100%40yahoogroups.com><Doepfer_a100%
> 40yahoogroups.com>
>
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 6:30:55 AM
> > > > Subject: [Doepfer_a100] Re: starting a modular - Z3000 waveform
> quality?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > or perhaps we can just ban argitoth? the guy's a trainwreck, spoils
> > > > every message board he signs up to with inane opinions presented as
> > > > fact and a TOTAL lack of self awareness.
> > > >
> > > > --- In Doepfer_a100@ yahoogroups. com, Bakis Sirros
> > > > <synth_freak_ 2000@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > yes, good idea. i can then NOT join that group...
> > > > >
> > > > > Bakis Sirros - Parallel Worlds / Interconnected / Memory Geist
> > > > > [Doepfer_a100] group owner
> > > > > www. parallel - worlds - music. com
> > > > > www. myspace. com/ parallelworldsmusic
> > > > > www. myspace. com/ interconnectedmusic
> > > > > www. myspace. com/ memorygeist
> > > > > www. DiN. org. uk
> > > > > www. musicamaximamagneti ca. com
> > > > > www. shimarecords. co. uk
> > > > > www. rubberrecords. gr
> > > > > Athens - Greece
> > > > >
> > > > > --- On Tue, 11/25/08, Frequency Divider <freq.div@ .> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > From: Frequency Divider <freq.div@ .>
> > > > > Subject: Re: [Doepfer_a100] Re: starting a modular - Z3000 waveform
> > > > quality?
> > > > > To: Doepfer_a100@ yahoogroups. com
> > > > > Date: Tuesday, November 25, 2008, 9:31 PM
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > i would like to suggest the creation of a seperate list or yahoo
> > > > group
> > > > > for any future sine wave purity discussions. you could even join
> > > > the
> > > > > alternate tunings list for obsessive talk about tuning the vco in
> > > > cents
> > > > > and fractions of cents
> > > > >
> > > > > Argitoth schreef:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > btw, here's the Tip Top Audio VCO waveform test:
> > > > > > http://www.muffwigg ler.com/forum/ viewtopic. php?t=2158
> > > > > > <http://www.muffwigg ler.com/forum/ viewtopic. php?t=2158>
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Is it just me or does Analogue Systems VCO produce better
> > > > traingles and
> > > > > > sines?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks James,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Laryn91, I just recorded my synth using the filter as a
> > > > waveshaper.
> > > > > > Good tracking is not needed, you just have to patch a 1v/oct
> > > > signal
> > > > > > into the filter's VC, but that VC needs an attenuator. You don't
> > > > want
> > > > > > to give it full VC. Here's the recording:
> > > > > > http://www.elanhick ler.com/misc/ filter-waveshapi ng-test.wav
> > > > > > <http://www.elanhick ler.com/misc/ filter-waveshapi ng-test.wav>
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 1. Raw sound without filtering.
> > > > > > 2. With filtering (notice how you can't hear low notes, that's
> > > > how it
> > > > > > should be with sine waves, however the problem is that low notes
> > > > also
> > > > > > have small peaks)
> > > > > > 3. With filtering used as a modulator (the lesser peaks means
> > > > it's not
> > > > > > good as a modulator, not enough volume anymore)
> > > > > > 4. Without filtering used as a pitch modulator (this is how the
> > > > > > modulation should sound)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Hmm... Its anyone's guess if a filter is really worth using as a
> > > > waveshaper.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > > > > > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg. com
> > > > > > Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.10/1810 - Release Date:
> > > > 11/24/2008 2:36 PM
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>  
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

So what is the purpose of this?  Isn't a slightly imperfect sine  
impossible to distinguish aurally?  And can't you filter out any  
imperfections to near-silence with an LPF?

On Nov 28, 2008, at 10:02 AM, laryn91 wrote:

> My ZO starts to distort at lower freqs (looks like a square with  
> rounded corners). So it's a
> sine for only part of its range.
>
> I'm not so much interested about whose *distorted* sine wave sounds  
> best, but who's sine
> output actually has no audible harmonic distortion (i.e fundamental  
> only).
>
> --- In Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com, Bakis Sirros  
> <synth_freak_2000@...> wrote:
> >
> > or maybe Cyndustries Zeroscillator...i think that should also have  
> a very good sinewave.
> >
> > that said, i also really like a lot the sine of the A111's (i use  
> them all the time!) and the
> sine of the AFG (regarding Euro).
> >
> >
> > Bakis Sirros - Parallel Worlds / Interconnected / Memory Geist
> > [Doepfer_a100] group owner
> > www. parallel - worlds - music. com
> > www. myspace. com/ parallelworldsmusic
> > www. myspace. com/ interconnectedmusic
> > www. myspace. com/ memorygeist
> > www. DiN. org. uk
> > www. musicamaximamagnetica. com
> > www. shimarecords. co. uk
> > www. rubberrecords. gr
> > Athens - Greece
> >
> > --- On Fri, 11/28/08, laryn91 <caymus91@...> wrote:
> >
> > From: laryn91 <caymus91@...>
> > Subject: [Doepfer_a100] Re: starting a modular - Z3000 waveform  
> quality?
> > To: Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com
> > Date: Friday, November 28, 2008, 7:17 PM
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > I originally asked if anybody sold a VCO with undistorted sine  
> outputs. In summary here
> > are the replies I got:
> >
> > 1 - Manufactures claim they can spec any wave with rounded peaks  
> as "Sine". Even if
> you
> > can clearly hear even harmonic distortion - any roundish looking  
> shape is a close
> enough
> > to be called a Sine.
> >
> > 2 - Analog vs. Digital religion states that analog must always  
> remain imprecise because
> > that is its character. We don't want a clean analog wave with no  
> added harmonics in our
> > system because that would make it digital.
> >
> > 3 - Finally the topic police posted their overall disapproval of  
> this discussion. Even
> > banning members was suggested!
> >
> > So I learned if you want a real sine wave (as defined by Fourier),  
> get Plan-B Model 15...
> >
> > --- In Doepfer_a100@ yahoogroups. com, york luethje <ybl@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Why ban people? I found the debate lively at first, although it  
> later turned somewhat
> > obnoxious. Dieter Doepfer has given an excellent reply and I think  
> matters should rest
> > there.
> > >
> > > York
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ____________ _________ _________ __
> > > From: kovski774 <kovski@>
> > > To: Doepfer_a100@ yahoogroups. com
> > > Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 6:30:55 AM
> > > Subject: [Doepfer_a100] Re: starting a modular - Z3000 waveform  
> quality?
> > >
> > >
> > > or perhaps we can just ban argitoth? the guy's a trainwreck,  
> spoils
> > > every message board he signs up to with inane opinions presented  
> as
> > > fact and a TOTAL lack of self awareness.
> > >
> > > --- In Doepfer_a100@ yahoogroups. com, Bakis Sirros
> > > <synth_freak_ 2000@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > yes, good idea. i can then NOT join that group...
> > > >
> > > > Bakis Sirros - Parallel Worlds / Interconnected / Memory Geist
> > > > [Doepfer_a100] group owner
> > > > www. parallel - worlds - music. com
> > > > www. myspace. com/ parallelworldsmusic
> > > > www. myspace. com/ interconnectedmusic
> > > > www. myspace. com/ memorygeist
> > > > www. DiN. org. uk
> > > > www. musicamaximamagneti ca. com
> > > > www. shimarecords. co. uk
> > > > www. rubberrecords. gr
> > > > Athens - Greece
> > > >
> > > > --- On Tue, 11/25/08, Frequency Divider <freq.div@ .> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > From: Frequency Divider <freq.div@ .>
> > > > Subject: Re: [Doepfer_a100] Re: starting a modular - Z3000  
> waveform
> > > quality?
> > > > To: Doepfer_a100@ yahoogroups. com
> > > > Date: Tuesday, November 25, 2008, 9:31 PM
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > i would like to suggest the creation of a seperate list or yahoo
> > > group
> > > > for any future sine wave purity discussions. you could even join
> > > the
> > > > alternate tunings list for obsessive talk about tuning the vco  
> in
> > > cents
> > > > and fractions of cents
> > > >
> > > > Argitoth schreef:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > btw, here's the Tip Top Audio VCO waveform test:
> > > > > http://www.muffwigg ler.com/forum/ viewtopic. php?t=2158
> > > > > <http://www.muffwigg ler.com/forum/ viewtopic. php?t=2158>
> > > > >
> > > > > Is it just me or does Analogue Systems VCO produce better
> > > traingles and
> > > > > sines?
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks James,
> > > > >
> > > > > Laryn91, I just recorded my synth using the filter as a
> > > waveshaper.
> > > > > Good tracking is not needed, you just have to patch a 1v/oct
> > > signal
> > > > > into the filter's VC, but that VC needs an attenuator. You  
> don't
> > > want
> > > > > to give it full VC. Here's the recording:
> > > > > http://www.elanhick ler.com/misc/ filter-waveshapi ng-test.wav
> > > > > <http://www.elanhick ler.com/misc/ filter-waveshapi ng-test.wav 
> >
> > > > >
> > > > > 1. Raw sound without filtering.
> > > > > 2. With filtering (notice how you can't hear low notes, that's
> > > how it
> > > > > should be with sine waves, however the problem is that low  
> notes
> > > also
> > > > > have small peaks)
> > > > > 3. With filtering used as a modulator (the lesser peaks means
> > > it's not
> > > > > good as a modulator, not enough volume anymore)
> > > > > 4. Without filtering used as a pitch modulator (this is how  
> the
> > > > > modulation should sound)
> > > > >
> > > > > Hmm... Its anyone's guess if a filter is really worth using  
> as a
> > > waveshaper.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- ---------  
> --------- -
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > > > > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg. com
> > > > > Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.10/1810 - Release  
> Date:
> > > 11/24/2008 2:36 PM
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>
> 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Only just joined this curiously tense thread.

Is there something so fundamentally (unintended joke) annoying about
wanting sine waves when spending well over a thousand pounds on a
mono-synth?

*I* want sine waves as pure as possible because I like using ring mod
which tends to sound rather nasty and noisy with anything other than
pure sines. I know because I've tried using things other than sine
waves, not because someone told me so.

I heard the A110 wasn't a pure sine.
I bought an A111 and a dual cwejman instead.
They produce nice non-noisy sines and the ring mod produced sounds
good to my ears.
I am now happy.

I'm happy to hear what solutions other people have found to the
pure-sine dilemma. I'm also happy to hear that other people don't care
about pure sines - that's interesting in itself, and I love hearing
the work-arounds.

Can't we all move on or play nice? 



--- In Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com, Monroe Eskew <monroe.eskew@...>
wrote:
>
> So what is the purpose of this?  Isn't a slightly imperfect sine  
> impossible to distinguish aurally?  And can't you filter out any  
> imperfections to near-silence with an LPF?
> 
> On Nov 28, 2008, at 10:02 AM, laryn91 wrote:
> 
> > My ZO starts to distort at lower freqs (looks like a square with  
> > rounded corners). So it's a
> > sine for only part of its range.
> >
> > I'm not so much interested about whose *distorted* sine wave sounds  
> > best, but who's sine
> > output actually has no audible harmonic distortion (i.e fundamental  
> > only).
> >
> > --- In Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com, Bakis Sirros  
> > <synth_freak_2000@> wrote:
> > >
> > > or maybe Cyndustries Zeroscillator...i think that should also have  
> > a very good sinewave.
> > >
> > > that said, i also really like a lot the sine of the A111's (i use  
> > them all the time!) and the
> > sine of the AFG (regarding Euro).
> > >
> > >
> > > Bakis Sirros - Parallel Worlds / Interconnected / Memory Geist
> > > [Doepfer_a100] group owner
> > > www. parallel - worlds - music. com
> > > www. myspace. com/ parallelworldsmusic
> > > www. myspace. com/ interconnectedmusic
> > > www. myspace. com/ memorygeist
> > > www. DiN. org. uk
> > > www. musicamaximamagnetica. com
> > > www. shimarecords. co. uk
> > > www. rubberrecords. gr
> > > Athens - Greece
> > >
> > > --- On Fri, 11/28/08, laryn91 <caymus91@> wrote:
> > >
> > > From: laryn91 <caymus91@>
> > > Subject: [Doepfer_a100] Re: starting a modular - Z3000 waveform  
> > quality?
> > > To: Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com
> > > Date: Friday, November 28, 2008, 7:17 PM
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I originally asked if anybody sold a VCO with undistorted sine  
> > outputs. In summary here
> > > are the replies I got:
> > >
> > > 1 - Manufactures claim they can spec any wave with rounded peaks  
> > as "Sine". Even if
> > you
> > > can clearly hear even harmonic distortion - any roundish looking  
> > shape is a close
> > enough
> > > to be called a Sine.
> > >
> > > 2 - Analog vs. Digital religion states that analog must always  
> > remain imprecise because
> > > that is its character. We don't want a clean analog wave with no  
> > added harmonics in our
> > > system because that would make it digital.
> > >
> > > 3 - Finally the topic police posted their overall disapproval of  
> > this discussion. Even
> > > banning members was suggested!
> > >
> > > So I learned if you want a real sine wave (as defined by Fourier),  
> > get Plan-B Model 15...
> > >
> > > --- In Doepfer_a100@ yahoogroups. com, york luethje <ybl@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Why ban people? I found the debate lively at first, although it  
> > later turned somewhat
> > > obnoxious. Dieter Doepfer has given an excellent reply and I think  
> > matters should rest
> > > there.
> > > >
> > > > York
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ____________ _________ _________ __
> > > > From: kovski774 <kovski@>
> > > > To: Doepfer_a100@ yahoogroups. com
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 6:30:55 AM
> > > > Subject: [Doepfer_a100] Re: starting a modular - Z3000 waveform  
> > quality?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > or perhaps we can just ban argitoth? the guy's a trainwreck,  
> > spoils
> > > > every message board he signs up to with inane opinions presented  
> > as
> > > > fact and a TOTAL lack of self awareness.
> > > >
> > > > --- In Doepfer_a100@ yahoogroups. com, Bakis Sirros
> > > > <synth_freak_ 2000@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > yes, good idea. i can then NOT join that group...
> > > > >
> > > > > Bakis Sirros - Parallel Worlds / Interconnected / Memory Geist
> > > > > [Doepfer_a100] group owner
> > > > > www. parallel - worlds - music. com
> > > > > www. myspace. com/ parallelworldsmusic
> > > > > www. myspace. com/ interconnectedmusic
> > > > > www. myspace. com/ memorygeist
> > > > > www. DiN. org. uk
> > > > > www. musicamaximamagneti ca. com
> > > > > www. shimarecords. co. uk
> > > > > www. rubberrecords. gr
> > > > > Athens - Greece
> > > > >
> > > > > --- On Tue, 11/25/08, Frequency Divider <freq.div@ .> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > From: Frequency Divider <freq.div@ .>
> > > > > Subject: Re: [Doepfer_a100] Re: starting a modular - Z3000  
> > waveform
> > > > quality?
> > > > > To: Doepfer_a100@ yahoogroups. com
> > > > > Date: Tuesday, November 25, 2008, 9:31 PM
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > i would like to suggest the creation of a seperate list or yahoo
> > > > group
> > > > > for any future sine wave purity discussions. you could even join
> > > > the
> > > > > alternate tunings list for obsessive talk about tuning the vco  
> > in
> > > > cents
> > > > > and fractions of cents
> > > > >
> > > > > Argitoth schreef:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > btw, here's the Tip Top Audio VCO waveform test:
> > > > > > http://www.muffwigg ler.com/forum/ viewtopic. php?t=2158
> > > > > > <http://www.muffwigg ler.com/forum/ viewtopic. php?t=2158>
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Is it just me or does Analogue Systems VCO produce better
> > > > traingles and
> > > > > > sines?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks James,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Laryn91, I just recorded my synth using the filter as a
> > > > waveshaper.
> > > > > > Good tracking is not needed, you just have to patch a 1v/oct
> > > > signal
> > > > > > into the filter's VC, but that VC needs an attenuator. You  
> > don't
> > > > want
> > > > > > to give it full VC. Here's the recording:
> > > > > > http://www.elanhick ler.com/misc/ filter-waveshapi ng-test.wav
> > > > > > <http://www.elanhick ler.com/misc/ filter-waveshapi
ng-test.wav 

> > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 1. Raw sound without filtering.
> > > > > > 2. With filtering (notice how you can't hear low notes, that's
> > > > how it
> > > > > > should be with sine waves, however the problem is that low  
> > notes
> > > > also
> > > > > > have small peaks)
> > > > > > 3. With filtering used as a modulator (the lesser peaks means
> > > > it's not
> > > > > > good as a modulator, not enough volume anymore)
> > > > > > 4. Without filtering used as a pitch modulator (this is how  
> > the
> > > > > > modulation should sound)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Hmm... Its anyone's guess if a filter is really worth using  
> > as a
> > > > waveshaper.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- ---------  
> > --------- -
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > > > > > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg. com
> > > > > > Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.10/1810 - Release  
> > Date:
> > > > 11/24/2008 2:36 PM
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> >
> >
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

I don't get it either. All I asked is if anyone knows of any euro VCO that can produce a sine 
wave without audible harmonic distortion (Plan-B and ZO so far). To me this a very useful 
feature.

But my request seems to get hijacked by self-righteous posters who expect everyone to 
either adopt their personal analog synthesis religion or justify their inability to hear 
harmonic distortion.



--- In Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com, "madrayken" <dene.carter@...> wrote:

>
> Only just joined this curiously tense thread.
> 
> Is there something so fundamentally (unintended joke) annoying about
> wanting sine waves when spending well over a thousand pounds on a
> mono-synth?
> 
> *I* want sine waves as pure as possible because I like using ring mod
> which tends to sound rather nasty and noisy with anything other than
> pure sines. I know because I've tried using things other than sine
> waves, not because someone told me so.
> 
> I heard the A110 wasn't a pure sine.
> I bought an A111 and a dual cwejman instead.
> They produce nice non-noisy sines and the ring mod produced sounds
> good to my ears.
> I am now happy.
> 
> I'm happy to hear what solutions other people have found to the
> pure-sine dilemma. I'm also happy to hear that other people don't care
> about pure sines - that's interesting in itself, and I love hearing
> the work-arounds.
> 
> Can't we all move on or play nice? 
> 
> 
> 
> --- In Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com, Monroe Eskew <monroe.eskew@>
> wrote:
> >
> > So what is the purpose of this?  Isn't a slightly imperfect sine  
> > impossible to distinguish aurally?  And can't you filter out any  
> > imperfections to near-silence with an LPF?
> > 
> > On Nov 28, 2008, at 10:02 AM, laryn91 wrote:
> > 
> > > My ZO starts to distort at lower freqs (looks like a square with  
> > > rounded corners). So it's a
> > > sine for only part of its range.
> > >
> > > I'm not so much interested about whose *distorted* sine wave sounds  
> > > best, but who's sine
> > > output actually has no audible harmonic distortion (i.e fundamental  
> > > only).
> > >
> > > --- In Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com, Bakis Sirros  
> > > <synth_freak_2000@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > or maybe Cyndustries Zeroscillator...i think that should also have  
> > > a very good sinewave.
> > > >
> > > > that said, i also really like a lot the sine of the A111's (i use  
> > > them all the time!) and the
> > > sine of the AFG (regarding Euro).
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Bakis Sirros - Parallel Worlds / Interconnected / Memory Geist
> > > > [Doepfer_a100] group owner
> > > > www. parallel - worlds - music. com
> > > > www. myspace. com/ parallelworldsmusic
> > > > www. myspace. com/ interconnectedmusic
> > > > www. myspace. com/ memorygeist
> > > > www. DiN. org. uk
> > > > www. musicamaximamagnetica. com
> > > > www. shimarecords. co. uk
> > > > www. rubberrecords. gr
> > > > Athens - Greece
> > > >
> > > > --- On Fri, 11/28/08, laryn91 <caymus91@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > From: laryn91 <caymus91@>
> > > > Subject: [Doepfer_a100] Re: starting a modular - Z3000 waveform  
> > > quality?
> > > > To: Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com
> > > > Date: Friday, November 28, 2008, 7:17 PM
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I originally asked if anybody sold a VCO with undistorted sine  
> > > outputs. In summary here
> > > > are the replies I got:
> > > >
> > > > 1 - Manufactures claim they can spec any wave with rounded peaks  
> > > as "Sine". Even if
> > > you
> > > > can clearly hear even harmonic distortion - any roundish looking  
> > > shape is a close
> > > enough
> > > > to be called a Sine.
> > > >
> > > > 2 - Analog vs. Digital religion states that analog must always  
> > > remain imprecise because
> > > > that is its character. We don't want a clean analog wave with no  
> > > added harmonics in our
> > > > system because that would make it digital.
> > > >
> > > > 3 - Finally the topic police posted their overall disapproval of  
> > > this discussion. Even
> > > > banning members was suggested!
> > > >
> > > > So I learned if you want a real sine wave (as defined by Fourier),  
> > > get Plan-B Model 15...
> > > >
> > > > --- In Doepfer_a100@ yahoogroups. com, york luethje <ybl@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Why ban people? I found the debate lively at first, although it  
> > > later turned somewhat
> > > > obnoxious. Dieter Doepfer has given an excellent reply and I think  
> > > matters should rest
> > > > there.
> > > > >
> > > > > York
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __
> > > > > From: kovski774 <kovski@>
> > > > > To: Doepfer_a100@ yahoogroups. com
> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 6:30:55 AM
> > > > > Subject: [Doepfer_a100] Re: starting a modular - Z3000 waveform  
> > > quality?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > or perhaps we can just ban argitoth? the guy's a trainwreck,  
> > > spoils
> > > > > every message board he signs up to with inane opinions presented  
> > > as
> > > > > fact and a TOTAL lack of self awareness.
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In Doepfer_a100@ yahoogroups. com, Bakis Sirros
> > > > > <synth_freak_ 2000@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > yes, good idea. i can then NOT join that group...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Bakis Sirros - Parallel Worlds / Interconnected / Memory Geist
> > > > > > [Doepfer_a100] group owner
> > > > > > www. parallel - worlds - music. com
> > > > > > www. myspace. com/ parallelworldsmusic
> > > > > > www. myspace. com/ interconnectedmusic
> > > > > > www. myspace. com/ memorygeist
> > > > > > www. DiN. org. uk
> > > > > > www. musicamaximamagneti ca. com
> > > > > > www. shimarecords. co. uk
> > > > > > www. rubberrecords. gr
> > > > > > Athens - Greece
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- On Tue, 11/25/08, Frequency Divider <freq.div@ .> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > From: Frequency Divider <freq.div@ .>
> > > > > > Subject: Re: [Doepfer_a100] Re: starting a modular - Z3000  
> > > waveform
> > > > > quality?
> > > > > > To: Doepfer_a100@ yahoogroups. com
> > > > > > Date: Tuesday, November 25, 2008, 9:31 PM
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > i would like to suggest the creation of a seperate list or yahoo
> > > > > group
> > > > > > for any future sine wave purity discussions. you could even join
> > > > > the
> > > > > > alternate tunings list for obsessive talk about tuning the vco  
> > > in
> > > > > cents
> > > > > > and fractions of cents
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Argitoth schreef:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > btw, here's the Tip Top Audio VCO waveform test:
> > > > > > > http://www.muffwigg ler.com/forum/ viewtopic. php?t=2158
> > > > > > > <http://www.muffwigg ler.com/forum/ viewtopic. php?t=2158>
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Is it just me or does Analogue Systems VCO produce better
> > > > > traingles and
> > > > > > > sines?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Thanks James,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Laryn91, I just recorded my synth using the filter as a
> > > > > waveshaper.
> > > > > > > Good tracking is not needed, you just have to patch a 1v/oct
> > > > > signal
> > > > > > > into the filter's VC, but that VC needs an attenuator. You  
> > > don't
> > > > > want
> > > > > > > to give it full VC. Here's the recording:
> > > > > > > http://www.elanhick ler.com/misc/ filter-waveshapi ng-test.wav
> > > > > > > <http://www.elanhick ler.com/misc/ filter-waveshapi
> ng-test.wav 
> > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > 1. Raw sound without filtering.
> > > > > > > 2. With filtering (notice how you can't hear low notes, that's
> > > > > how it
> > > > > > > should be with sine waves, however the problem is that low  
> > > notes
> > > > > also
> > > > > > > have small peaks)
> > > > > > > 3. With filtering used as a modulator (the lesser peaks means
> > > > > it's not
> > > > > > > good as a modulator, not enough volume anymore)
> > > > > > > 4. Without filtering used as a pitch modulator (this is how  
> > > the
> > > > > > > modulation should sound)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Hmm... Its anyone's guess if a filter is really worth using  
> > > as a
> > > > > waveshaper.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- ---------  
> > > --------- -
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > > > > > > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg. com
> > > > > > > Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.10/1810 - Release  
> > > Date:
> > > > > 11/24/2008 2:36 PM
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>

Actually the high-quality sine circuit is *quite* common. According to my schematic 
library, most vintage oscillators used this standard design. For example, my Aries VCOs 
produce a pretty good purity sine using this:

http://www.leinermedia.net/aries/AriesSchematics/AR-317s.gif

My guess is modern VCO designs use the cheap low-quality diode circuit instead because:

A - the simple diode circuit requires no calibration where the Hi-Q one has two trim pots 
to set (symmetry and purity).

B - According to this thread it appears many analog users are unaware or inexperienced 
with quality VCO sines. So there no customer demand.

BTW, nobody is advocating "pure" sines - just ones with no audible harmonic distortion. 
That's certainly is easy to design in analog.




--- In Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com, Florian Anwander <fanwander@...> wrote:
>
> Hi laryn91
> 
> > I don't get it either. All I asked is if anyone knows of any euro VCO that can produce a 
sine 
> > wave without audible harmonic distortion (Plan-B and ZO so far). To me this a very 
useful 

> > feature.
> I don't know that there would exist any schematic for this. I never have 
> seen a schematic for a pure sine oscillator that is V/Oct voltage 
> controlled. I may be wrong, but I think it is not really possible.
> 
> Florian
>

Actually the high-quality sine circuit is *quite* common. According to my schematic 
library, most vintage oscillators used this standard design. For example, my Aries VCOs 
produce a pretty good purity sine using this:

http://www.leinermedia.net/aries/AriesSchematics/AR-317s.gif

My guess is modern VCO designs use the cheap low-quality diode circuit instead because:

A - the simple diode circuit requires no calibration where the Hi-Q one has two trim pots 
to set (symmetry and purity).

B - According to this thread it appears many analog users are unaware or inexperienced 
with quality VCO sines. So there no customer demand.

BTW, nobody is advocating "pure" sines - just ones with no audible harmonic distortion. 
That's certainly is easy to design in analog.




--- In Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com, Florian Anwander <fanwander@...> wrote:
>
> Hi laryn91
> 
> > I don't get it either. All I asked is if anyone knows of any euro VCO that can produce a 
sine 
> > wave without audible harmonic distortion (Plan-B and ZO so far). To me this a very 
useful 

> > feature.
> I don't know that there would exist any schematic for this. I never have 
> seen a schematic for a pure sine oscillator that is V/Oct voltage 
> controlled. I may be wrong, but I think it is not really possible.
> 
> Florian
>

Hi laryn91

> I don't get it either. All I asked is if anyone knows of any euro VCO that can produce a sine 
> wave without audible harmonic distortion (Plan-B and ZO so far). To me this a very useful 
> feature.
I don't know that there would exist any schematic for this. I never have 
seen a schematic for a pure sine oscillator that is V/Oct voltage 
controlled. I may be wrong, but I think it is not really possible.

Florian

Isn't it true that in theory, analog should have purer waveforms than  
digital?  Digitally produced waves are limited by the bit resolution,  
so on a small scale they are step functions.  Analog oscillators may  
produce distorted shapes but at least they are truly smooth  
functions.  Right?

On Nov 29, 2008, at 2:57 AM, madrayken wrote:

> Only just joined this curiously tense thread.
>
> Is there something so fundamentally (unintended joke) annoying about
> wanting sine waves when spending well over a thousand pounds on a
> mono-synth?
>
> *I* want sine waves as pure as possible because I like using ring mod
> which tends to sound rather nasty and noisy with anything other than
> pure sines. I know because I've tried using things other than sine
> waves, not because someone told me so.
>
> I heard the A110 wasn't a pure sine.
> I bought an A111 and a dual cwejman instead.
> They produce nice non-noisy sines and the ring mod produced sounds
> good to my ears.
> I am now happy.
>
> I'm happy to hear what solutions other people have found to the
> pure-sine dilemma. I'm also happy to hear that other people don't care
> about pure sines - that's interesting in itself, and I love hearing
> the work-arounds.
>
> Can't we all move on or play nice?
>
> --- In Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com, Monroe Eskew <monroe.eskew@...>
> wrote:
> >
> > So what is the purpose of this? Isn't a slightly imperfect sine
> > impossible to distinguish aurally? And can't you filter out any
> > imperfections to near-silence with an LPF?
> >
> > On Nov 28, 2008, at 10:02 AM, laryn91 wrote:
> >
> > > My ZO starts to distort at lower freqs (looks like a square with
> > > rounded corners). So it's a
> > > sine for only part of its range.
> > >
> > > I'm not so much interested about whose *distorted* sine wave  
> sounds
> > > best, but who's sine
> > > output actually has no audible harmonic distortion (i.e  
> fundamental
> > > only).
> > >
> > > --- In Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com, Bakis Sirros
> > > <synth_freak_2000@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > or maybe Cyndustries Zeroscillator...i think that should also  
> have
> > > a very good sinewave.
> > > >
> > > > that said, i also really like a lot the sine of the A111's (i  
> use
> > > them all the time!) and the
> > > sine of the AFG (regarding Euro).
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Bakis Sirros - Parallel Worlds / Interconnected / Memory Geist
> > > > [Doepfer_a100] group owner
> > > > www. parallel - worlds - music. com
> > > > www. myspace. com/ parallelworldsmusic
> > > > www. myspace. com/ interconnectedmusic
> > > > www. myspace. com/ memorygeist
> > > > www. DiN. org. uk
> > > > www. musicamaximamagnetica. com
> > > > www. shimarecords. co. uk
> > > > www. rubberrecords. gr
> > > > Athens - Greece
> > > >
> > > > --- On Fri, 11/28/08, laryn91 <caymus91@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > From: laryn91 <caymus91@>
> > > > Subject: [Doepfer_a100] Re: starting a modular - Z3000 waveform
> > > quality?
> > > > To: Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com
> > > > Date: Friday, November 28, 2008, 7:17 PM
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I originally asked if anybody sold a VCO with undistorted sine
> > > outputs. In summary here
> > > > are the replies I got:
> > > >
> > > > 1 - Manufactures claim they can spec any wave with rounded peaks
> > > as "Sine". Even if
> > > you
> > > > can clearly hear even harmonic distortion - any roundish looking
> > > shape is a close
> > > enough
> > > > to be called a Sine.
> > > >
> > > > 2 - Analog vs. Digital religion states that analog must always
> > > remain imprecise because
> > > > that is its character. We don't want a clean analog wave with no
> > > added harmonics in our
> > > > system because that would make it digital.
> > > >
> > > > 3 - Finally the topic police posted their overall disapproval of
> > > this discussion. Even
> > > > banning members was suggested!
> > > >
> > > > So I learned if you want a real sine wave (as defined by  
> Fourier),
> > > get Plan-B Model 15...
> > > >
> > > > --- In Doepfer_a100@ yahoogroups. com, york luethje <ybl@>  
> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Why ban people? I found the debate lively at first, although  
> it
> > > later turned somewhat
> > > > obnoxious. Dieter Doepfer has given an excellent reply and I  
> think
> > > matters should rest
> > > > there.
> > > > >
> > > > > York
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __
> > > > > From: kovski774 <kovski@>
> > > > > To: Doepfer_a100@ yahoogroups. com
> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 6:30:55 AM
> > > > > Subject: [Doepfer_a100] Re: starting a modular - Z3000  
> waveform
> > > quality?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > or perhaps we can just ban argitoth? the guy's a trainwreck,
> > > spoils
> > > > > every message board he signs up to with inane opinions  
> presented
> > > as
> > > > > fact and a TOTAL lack of self awareness.
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In Doepfer_a100@ yahoogroups. com, Bakis Sirros
> > > > > <synth_freak_ 2000@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > yes, good idea. i can then NOT join that group...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Bakis Sirros - Parallel Worlds / Interconnected / Memory  
> Geist
> > > > > > [Doepfer_a100] group owner
> > > > > > www. parallel - worlds - music. com
> > > > > > www. myspace. com/ parallelworldsmusic
> > > > > > www. myspace. com/ interconnectedmusic
> > > > > > www. myspace. com/ memorygeist
> > > > > > www. DiN. org. uk
> > > > > > www. musicamaximamagneti ca. com
> > > > > > www. shimarecords. co. uk
> > > > > > www. rubberrecords. gr
> > > > > > Athens - Greece
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- On Tue, 11/25/08, Frequency Divider <freq.div@ .> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > From: Frequency Divider <freq.div@ .>
> > > > > > Subject: Re: [Doepfer_a100] Re: starting a modular - Z3000
> > > waveform
> > > > > quality?
> > > > > > To: Doepfer_a100@ yahoogroups. com
> > > > > > Date: Tuesday, November 25, 2008, 9:31 PM
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > i would like to suggest the creation of a seperate list or  
> yahoo
> > > > > group
> > > > > > for any future sine wave purity discussions. you could  
> even join
> > > > > the
> > > > > > alternate tunings list for obsessive talk about tuning the  
> vco
> > > in
> > > > > cents
> > > > > > and fractions of cents
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Argitoth schreef:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > btw, here's the Tip Top Audio VCO waveform test:
> > > > > > > http://www.muffwigg ler.com/forum/ viewtopic. php?t=2158
> > > > > > > <http://www.muffwigg ler.com/forum/ viewtopic. php?t=2158>
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Is it just me or does Analogue Systems VCO produce better
> > > > > traingles and
> > > > > > > sines?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Thanks James,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Laryn91, I just recorded my synth using the filter as a
> > > > > waveshaper.
> > > > > > > Good tracking is not needed, you just have to patch a 1v/ 
> oct
> > > > > signal
> > > > > > > into the filter's VC, but that VC needs an attenuator. You
> > > don't
> > > > > want
> > > > > > > to give it full VC. Here's the recording:
> > > > > > > http://www.elanhick ler.com/misc/ filter-waveshapi ng- 
> test.wav
> > > > > > > <http://www.elanhick ler.com/misc/ filter-waveshapi
> ng-test.wav
> > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > 1. Raw sound without filtering.
> > > > > > > 2. With filtering (notice how you can't hear low notes,  
> that's
> > > > > how it
> > > > > > > should be with sine waves, however the problem is that low
> > > notes
> > > > > also
> > > > > > > have small peaks)
> > > > > > > 3. With filtering used as a modulator (the lesser peaks  
> means
> > > > > it's not
> > > > > > > good as a modulator, not enough volume anymore)
> > > > > > > 4. Without filtering used as a pitch modulator (this is  
> how
> > > the
> > > > > > > modulation should sound)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Hmm... Its anyone's guess if a filter is really worth  
> using
> > > as a
> > > > > waveshaper.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- ---------
> > > --------- -
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > > > > > > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg. com
> > > > > > > Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.10/1810 - Release
> > > Date:
> > > > > 11/24/2008 2:36 PM
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>
> 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

What is the consensus on the AS RS-95?  I don't have an oscilloscope  
or a spectrum analyzer, but the sines from mine sound pretty clean,  
and when I run it through a filter and sweep the cutoff frequency  
above the fundamental, I can't hear any changes, which suggests  
harmonic purity.

On Nov 29, 2008, at 9:49 AM, Florian Anwander wrote:

> Hi laryn91
>
> > I don't get it either. All I asked is if anyone knows of any euro  
> VCO that can produce a sine
> > wave without audible harmonic distortion (Plan-B and ZO so far).  
> To me this a very useful
> > feature.
> I don't know that there would exist any schematic for this. I never  
> have
> seen a schematic for a pure sine oscillator that is V/Oct voltage
> controlled. I may be wrong, but I think it is not really possible.
>
> Florian
>
> 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Monroe

> What is the consensus on the AS RS-95?
I don't have the schematics, but estimating from the features in the 
owners manual, this sine is derived from the triangle - or it is a 
wavetable which is read from a highest quality highspeed VCO (which I 
again doubt for this price).

Florian

In theory maybe you're correct, but what really matters is in practice, 
right? ;)

A digital sinusoid can easily be made to have a spurious-free response 
greater than the dynamic range of any DAC I know of (and probably 
greater than the dynamic range of the analog system the signal ends up 
in). In fact with a couple neat tricks I've seen a digital sinusoid 
built with a spurious-free response in excess of 150 dB.

Nick

Monroe Eskew wrote:

> Isn't it true that in theory, analog should have purer waveforms than  
> digital?  Digitally produced waves are limited by the bit resolution,  
> so on a small scale they are step functions.  Analog oscillators may  
> produce distorted shapes but at least they are truly smooth  
> functions.  Right?
> 
> On Nov 29, 2008, at 2:57 AM, madrayken wrote:
> 
>> Only just joined this curiously tense thread.
>>
>> Is there something so fundamentally (unintended joke) annoying about
>> wanting sine waves when spending well over a thousand pounds on a
>> mono-synth?
>>
>> *I* want sine waves as pure as possible because I like using ring mod
>> which tends to sound rather nasty and noisy with anything other than
>> pure sines. I know because I've tried using things other than sine
>> waves, not because someone told me so.
>>
>> I heard the A110 wasn't a pure sine.
>> I bought an A111 and a dual cwejman instead.
>> They produce nice non-noisy sines and the ring mod produced sounds
>> good to my ears.
>> I am now happy.
>>
>> I'm happy to hear what solutions other people have found to the
>> pure-sine dilemma. I'm also happy to hear that other people don't care
>> about pure sines - that's interesting in itself, and I love hearing
>> the work-arounds.
>>
>> Can't we all move on or play nice?
>>
>> --- In Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com, Monroe Eskew <monroe.eskew@...>
>> wrote:
>>> So what is the purpose of this? Isn't a slightly imperfect sine
>>> impossible to distinguish aurally? And can't you filter out any
>>> imperfections to near-silence with an LPF?
>>>
>>> On Nov 28, 2008, at 10:02 AM, laryn91 wrote:
>>>
>>>> My ZO starts to distort at lower freqs (looks like a square with
>>>> rounded corners). So it's a
>>>> sine for only part of its range.
>>>>
>>>> I'm not so much interested about whose *distorted* sine wave  
>> sounds
>>>> best, but who's sine
>>>> output actually has no audible harmonic distortion (i.e  
>> fundamental
>>>> only).
>>>>
>>>> --- In Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com, Bakis Sirros
>>>> <synth_freak_2000@> wrote:
>>>>> or maybe Cyndustries Zeroscillator...i think that should also  
>> have
>>>> a very good sinewave.
>>>>> that said, i also really like a lot the sine of the A111's (i  
>> use
>>>> them all the time!) and the
>>>> sine of the AFG (regarding Euro).
>>>>>
>>>>> Bakis Sirros - Parallel Worlds / Interconnected / Memory Geist
>>>>> [Doepfer_a100] group owner
>>>>> www. parallel - worlds - music. com
>>>>> www. myspace. com/ parallelworldsmusic
>>>>> www. myspace. com/ interconnectedmusic
>>>>> www. myspace. com/ memorygeist
>>>>> www. DiN. org. uk
>>>>> www. musicamaximamagnetica. com
>>>>> www. shimarecords. co. uk
>>>>> www. rubberrecords. gr
>>>>> Athens - Greece
>>>>>
>>>>> --- On Fri, 11/28/08, laryn91 <caymus91@> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> From: laryn91 <caymus91@>
>>>>> Subject: [Doepfer_a100] Re: starting a modular - Z3000 waveform
>>>> quality?
>>>>> To: Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com
>>>>> Date: Friday, November 28, 2008, 7:17 PM
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I originally asked if anybody sold a VCO with undistorted sine
>>>> outputs. In summary here
>>>>> are the replies I got:
>>>>>
>>>>> 1 - Manufactures claim they can spec any wave with rounded peaks
>>>> as "Sine". Even if
>>>> you
>>>>> can clearly hear even harmonic distortion - any roundish looking
>>>> shape is a close
>>>> enough
>>>>> to be called a Sine.
>>>>>
>>>>> 2 - Analog vs. Digital religion states that analog must always
>>>> remain imprecise because
>>>>> that is its character. We don't want a clean analog wave with no
>>>> added harmonics in our
>>>>> system because that would make it digital.
>>>>>
>>>>> 3 - Finally the topic police posted their overall disapproval of
>>>> this discussion. Even
>>>>> banning members was suggested!
>>>>>
>>>>> So I learned if you want a real sine wave (as defined by  
>> Fourier),
>>>> get Plan-B Model 15...
>>>>> --- In Doepfer_a100@ yahoogroups. com, york luethje <ybl@>  
>> wrote:
>>>>>> Why ban people? I found the debate lively at first, although  
>> it
>>>> later turned somewhat
>>>>> obnoxious. Dieter Doepfer has given an excellent reply and I  
>> think
>>>> matters should rest
>>>>> there.
>>>>>> York
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ____________ _________ _________ __
>>>>>> From: kovski774 <kovski@>
>>>>>> To: Doepfer_a100@ yahoogroups. com
>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 6:30:55 AM
>>>>>> Subject: [Doepfer_a100] Re: starting a modular - Z3000  
>> waveform
>>>> quality?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> or perhaps we can just ban argitoth? the guy's a trainwreck,
>>>> spoils
>>>>>> every message board he signs up to with inane opinions  
>> presented
>>>> as
>>>>>> fact and a TOTAL lack of self awareness.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --- In Doepfer_a100@ yahoogroups. com, Bakis Sirros
>>>>>> <synth_freak_ 2000@> wrote:
>>>>>>> yes, good idea. i can then NOT join that group...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Bakis Sirros - Parallel Worlds / Interconnected / Memory  
>> Geist
>>>>>>> [Doepfer_a100] group owner
>>>>>>> www. parallel - worlds - music. com
>>>>>>> www. myspace. com/ parallelworldsmusic
>>>>>>> www. myspace. com/ interconnectedmusic
>>>>>>> www. myspace. com/ memorygeist
>>>>>>> www. DiN. org. uk
>>>>>>> www. musicamaximamagneti ca. com
>>>>>>> www. shimarecords. co. uk
>>>>>>> www. rubberrecords. gr
>>>>>>> Athens - Greece
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --- On Tue, 11/25/08, Frequency Divider <freq.div@ .> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> From: Frequency Divider <freq.div@ .>
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Doepfer_a100] Re: starting a modular - Z3000
>>>> waveform
>>>>>> quality?
>>>>>>> To: Doepfer_a100@ yahoogroups. com
>>>>>>> Date: Tuesday, November 25, 2008, 9:31 PM
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> i would like to suggest the creation of a seperate list or  
>> yahoo
>>>>>> group
>>>>>>> for any future sine wave purity discussions. you could  
>> even join
>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> alternate tunings list for obsessive talk about tuning the  
>> vco
>>>> in
>>>>>> cents
>>>>>>> and fractions of cents
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Argitoth schreef:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> btw, here's the Tip Top Audio VCO waveform test:
>>>>>>>> http://www.muffwigg ler.com/forum/ viewtopic. php?t=2158
>>>>>>>> <http://www.muffwigg ler.com/forum/ viewtopic. php?t=2158>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Is it just me or does Analogue Systems VCO produce better
>>>>>> traingles and
>>>>>>>> sines?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thanks James,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Laryn91, I just recorded my synth using the filter as a
>>>>>> waveshaper.
>>>>>>>> Good tracking is not needed, you just have to patch a 1v/ 
>> oct
>>>>>> signal
>>>>>>>> into the filter's VC, but that VC needs an attenuator. You
>>>> don't
>>>>>> want
>>>>>>>> to give it full VC. Here's the recording:
>>>>>>>> http://www.elanhick ler.com/misc/ filter-waveshapi ng- 
>> test.wav
>>>>>>>> <http://www.elanhick ler.com/misc/ filter-waveshapi
>> ng-test.wav
>>>>>>>> 1. Raw sound without filtering.
>>>>>>>> 2. With filtering (notice how you can't hear low notes,  
>> that's
>>>>>> how it
>>>>>>>> should be with sine waves, however the problem is that low
>>>> notes
>>>>>> also
>>>>>>>> have small peaks)
>>>>>>>> 3. With filtering used as a modulator (the lesser peaks  
>> means
>>>>>> it's not
>>>>>>>> good as a modulator, not enough volume anymore)
>>>>>>>> 4. Without filtering used as a pitch modulator (this is  
>> how
>>>> the
>>>>>>>> modulation should sound)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hmm... Its anyone's guess if a filter is really worth  
>> using
>>>> as a
>>>>>> waveshaper.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ------------ --------- --------- --------- ---------
>>>> --------- -
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>>>>>> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg. com
>>>>>>>> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.10/1810 - Release
>>>> Date:
>>>>>> 11/24/2008 2:36 PM
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>>
>>
>>
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
>

Please give more details - which Euro VCOs are using this circuit?  I don't see this in any 
Doepfer VCO nor any of m  ASys. I'm guessing Plan-B and ZO do use it. Who else?

Ask Dieter if it adding 2 additional trimpots, a matched transistor pair and the labor to 
calibrate and set two additions parameters  would make a any difference in the price of his 
VCOs? 
 

--- In Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Rolando <goldenechos@...> wrote:
>
> 
> I hate to break it to you, but there is nothing terribly different, complex or expensive 
about the SINE circuit in the schematic linked below. Pretty common stuff.
> 
> TOny
> 
> > To: Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com
> > From: caymus91@...
> > Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2008 18:18:24 +0000
> > Subject: [Doepfer_a100] Re: starting a modular - Z3000 waveform quality?
> > 
> > Actually the high-quality sine circuit is *quite* common. According to my schematic 
> > library, most vintage oscillators used this standard design. For example, my Aries 
VCOs 
> > produce a pretty good purity sine using this:
> > 
> > http://www.leinermedia.net/aries/AriesSchematics/AR-317s.gif
> > 
> > My guess is modern VCO designs use the cheap low-quality diode circuit instead 
because:
> > 
> > A - the simple diode circuit requires no calibration where the Hi-Q one has two trim 
pots 
> > to set (symmetry and purity).
> > 
> > B - According to this thread it appears many analog users are unaware or 
inexperienced 
> > with quality VCO sines. So there no customer demand.
> > 
> > BTW, nobody is advocating "pure" sines - just ones with no audible harmonic 
distortion. 
> > That's certainly is easy to design in analog.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > --- In Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com, Florian Anwander <fanwander@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi laryn91
> > > 
> > > > I don't get it either. All I asked is if anyone knows of any euro VCO that can 
produce a 
> > sine 
> > > > wave without audible harmonic distortion (Plan-B and ZO so far). To me this a 
very 

> > useful 
> > > > feature.
> > > I don't know that there would exist any schematic for this. I never have 
> > > seen a schematic for a pure sine oscillator that is V/Oct voltage 
> > > controlled. I may be wrong, but I think it is not really possible.
> > > 
> > > Florian
> > >
> > 
> > 
> > ------------------------------------
> > 
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > 
> > 
> > 
> 
> _________________________________________________________________
> Proud to be a PC? Show the world. Download the "I'm a PC" Messenger themepack now.
> hthttp://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/119642558/direct/01/
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

I hate to break it to you, but there is nothing terribly different, complex or expensive about the SINE circuit in the schematic linked below. Pretty common stuff.

TOny

> To: Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com
> From: caymus91@mac.com
> Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2008 18:18:24 +0000
> Subject: [Doepfer_a100] Re: starting a modular - Z3000 waveform quality?
> 
> Actually the high-quality sine circuit is *quite* common. According to my schematic 
> library, most vintage oscillators used this standard design. For example, my Aries VCOs 
> produce a pretty good purity sine using this:
> 
> http://www.leinermedia.net/aries/AriesSchematics/AR-317s.gif
> 
> My guess is modern VCO designs use the cheap low-quality diode circuit instead because:
> 
> A - the simple diode circuit requires no calibration where the Hi-Q one has two trim pots 
> to set (symmetry and purity).
> 
> B - According to this thread it appears many analog users are unaware or inexperienced 
> with quality VCO sines. So there no customer demand.
> 
> BTW, nobody is advocating "pure" sines - just ones with no audible harmonic distortion. 
> That's certainly is easy to design in analog.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --- In Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com, Florian Anwander <fanwander@...> wrote:
> >
> > Hi laryn91
> > 
> > > I don't get it either. All I asked is if anyone knows of any euro VCO that can produce a 
> sine 
> > > wave without audible harmonic distortion (Plan-B and ZO so far). To me this a very 
> useful 
> > > feature.
> > I don't know that there would exist any schematic for this. I never have 
> > seen a schematic for a pure sine oscillator that is V/Oct voltage 
> > controlled. I may be wrong, but I think it is not really possible.
> > 
> > Florian
> >
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 

_________________________________________________________________
Proud to be a PC? Show the world. Download the �I�m a PC� Messenger themepack now.
hthttp://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/119642558/direct/01/

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Laryn


> Actually the high-quality sine circuit is *quite* common. According to my schematic 
> library, most vintage oscillators used this standard design. For example, my Aries VCOs 
> produce a pretty good purity sine using this:
> 
> http://www.leinermedia.net/aries/AriesSchematics/AR-317s.gif
Sorry, these are converters, but no sine oscillators. it is a sine-like 
waveform, but not a sine. Every frequency modulation affects the core 
oscillator, not the sine. So the result will be what the waveform 
converter makes out of the fm'ed core waveform, but will not be a fm'ed 
sine.

Florian

Hi Florian,

Maybe I don't understand the issue, but seems to me this should FM correctly. The sine 
converter *always* maintains an exact phase lock with the tri core. So however the core is 
modulated the correct sine phase is produced. Do you have a specific example where this 
wouldn't work for FM?

Looking at a the Synclavier FM oscillator design, looks like they too used a triangle-to-
sine converter but in the digital domain. The phase index is a ramp generator (triangle) 
that feeds a triangle-to-sine wave lookup table to generate the final sine shape. They 
called it "phase modulation" so Yamaha won't sue them, but sounds like pretty good FM to 
me.



--- In Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com, Florian Anwander <fanwander@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Laryn
> 
> 
> > Actually the high-quality sine circuit is *quite* common. According to my schematic 
> > library, most vintage oscillators used this standard design. For example, my Aries 
VCOs 

> > produce a pretty good purity sine using this:
> > 
> > http://www.leinermedia.net/aries/AriesSchematics/AR-317s.gif
> Sorry, these are converters, but no sine oscillators. it is a sine-like 
> waveform, but not a sine. Every frequency modulation affects the core 
> oscillator, not the sine. So the result will be what the waveform 
> converter makes out of the fm'ed core waveform, but will not be a fm'ed 
> sine.
> 
> Florian
>

> Hi laryn91
>
> > I don't get it either. All I asked is if anyone knows of any
> euro VCO that can produce a sine
> > wave without audible harmonic distortion (Plan-B and ZO so
> far). To me this a very useful
> > feature.
> I don't know that there would exist any schematic for this. I never have
> seen a schematic for a pure sine oscillator that is V/Oct voltage
> controlled. I may be wrong, but I think it is not really possible.

It's possible. The A-143-9 does this job (kind of a filter in
self-resonance). The only thing we would have to add is the temperature
compensation of the exponential generator to obtain a stable 1V/oct
characteristics. Maybe we can design a A-143-9 Version 2 with this
additional feature.

Best wishes
Dieter Doepfer

I'm just curious what relevance to music is.  It doesn't make sense to  
complain when a flute doesn't produce a pure sine.  Each instrument  
has its own character and musical desirability.  Lots of the best  
tones from analog synths are far from pure sine.  I can see why  
someone would want that pure sine sound in a particular musical  
application, but can't you approximate it well enough for musical  
purposes with standard equipment like A111 or RS95, or as you mention  
M15 or ZO?  If you run it through a strong LPF with no resonance then  
you further shape the wave towards sine perfection.

I'm just wondering if you are interested in musical applications or  
maybe scientific applications instead?  Or are you just a  
perfectionist?  (It's OK if you are.)

Monroe


On Nov 29, 2008, at 8:20 AM, laryn91 wrote:

> I don't get it either. All I asked is if anyone knows of any euro  
> VCO that can produce a sine
> wave without audible harmonic distortion (Plan-B and ZO so far). To  
> me this a very useful
> feature.
>
> But my request seems to get hijacked by self-righteous posters who  
> expect everyone to
> either adopt their personal analog synthesis religion or justify  
> their inability to hear
> harmonic distortion.
>
> --- In Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com, "madrayken" <dene.carter@...>  
> wrote:
> >
> > Only just joined this curiously tense thread.
> >
> > Is there something so fundamentally (unintended joke) annoying about
> > wanting sine waves when spending well over a thousand pounds on a
> > mono-synth?
> >
> > *I* want sine waves as pure as possible because I like using ring  
> mod
> > which tends to sound rather nasty and noisy with anything other than
> > pure sines. I know because I've tried using things other than sine
> > waves, not because someone told me so.
> >
> > I heard the A110 wasn't a pure sine.
> > I bought an A111 and a dual cwejman instead.
> > They produce nice non-noisy sines and the ring mod produced sounds
> > good to my ears.
> > I am now happy.
> >
> > I'm happy to hear what solutions other people have found to the
> > pure-sine dilemma. I'm also happy to hear that other people don't  
> care
> > about pure sines - that's interesting in itself, and I love hearing
> > the work-arounds.
> >
> > Can't we all move on or play nice?
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com, Monroe Eskew <monroe.eskew@>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > So what is the purpose of this? Isn't a slightly imperfect sine
> > > impossible to distinguish aurally? And can't you filter out any
> > > imperfections to near-silence with an LPF?
> > >
> > > On Nov 28, 2008, at 10:02 AM, laryn91 wrote:
> > >
> > > > My ZO starts to distort at lower freqs (looks like a square with
> > > > rounded corners). So it's a
> > > > sine for only part of its range.
> > > >
> > > > I'm not so much interested about whose *distorted* sine wave  
> sounds
> > > > best, but who's sine
> > > > output actually has no audible harmonic distortion (i.e  
> fundamental
> > > > only).
> > > >
> > > > --- In Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com, Bakis Sirros
> > > > <synth_freak_2000@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > or maybe Cyndustries Zeroscillator...i think that should  
> also have
> > > > a very good sinewave.
> > > > >
> > > > > that said, i also really like a lot the sine of the A111's  
> (i use
> > > > them all the time!) and the
> > > > sine of the AFG (regarding Euro).
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Bakis Sirros - Parallel Worlds / Interconnected / Memory Geist
> > > > > [Doepfer_a100] group owner
> > > > > www. parallel - worlds - music. com
> > > > > www. myspace. com/ parallelworldsmusic
> > > > > www. myspace. com/ interconnectedmusic
> > > > > www. myspace. com/ memorygeist
> > > > > www. DiN. org. uk
> > > > > www. musicamaximamagnetica. com
> > > > > www. shimarecords. co. uk
> > > > > www. rubberrecords. gr
> > > > > Athens - Greece
> > > > >
> > > > > --- On Fri, 11/28/08, laryn91 <caymus91@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > From: laryn91 <caymus91@>
> > > > > Subject: [Doepfer_a100] Re: starting a modular - Z3000  
> waveform
> > > > quality?
> > > > > To: Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > Date: Friday, November 28, 2008, 7:17 PM
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I originally asked if anybody sold a VCO with undistorted sine
> > > > outputs. In summary here
> > > > > are the replies I got:
> > > > >
> > > > > 1 - Manufactures claim they can spec any wave with rounded  
> peaks
> > > > as "Sine". Even if
> > > > you
> > > > > can clearly hear even harmonic distortion - any roundish  
> looking
> > > > shape is a close
> > > > enough
> > > > > to be called a Sine.
> > > > >
> > > > > 2 - Analog vs. Digital religion states that analog must always
> > > > remain imprecise because
> > > > > that is its character. We don't want a clean analog wave  
> with no
> > > > added harmonics in our
> > > > > system because that would make it digital.
> > > > >
> > > > > 3 - Finally the topic police posted their overall  
> disapproval of
> > > > this discussion. Even
> > > > > banning members was suggested!
> > > > >
> > > > > So I learned if you want a real sine wave (as defined by  
> Fourier),
> > > > get Plan-B Model 15...
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In Doepfer_a100@ yahoogroups. com, york luethje <ybl@>  
> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Why ban people? I found the debate lively at first,  
> although it
> > > > later turned somewhat
> > > > > obnoxious. Dieter Doepfer has given an excellent reply and I  
> think
> > > > matters should rest
> > > > > there.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > York
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __
> > > > > > From: kovski774 <kovski@>
> > > > > > To: Doepfer_a100@ yahoogroups. com
> > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 6:30:55 AM
> > > > > > Subject: [Doepfer_a100] Re: starting a modular - Z3000  
> waveform
> > > > quality?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > or perhaps we can just ban argitoth? the guy's a trainwreck,
> > > > spoils
> > > > > > every message board he signs up to with inane opinions  
> presented
> > > > as
> > > > > > fact and a TOTAL lack of self awareness.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In Doepfer_a100@ yahoogroups. com, Bakis Sirros
> > > > > > <synth_freak_ 2000@> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > yes, good idea. i can then NOT join that group...
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Bakis Sirros - Parallel Worlds / Interconnected / Memory  
> Geist
> > > > > > > [Doepfer_a100] group owner
> > > > > > > www. parallel - worlds - music. com
> > > > > > > www. myspace. com/ parallelworldsmusic
> > > > > > > www. myspace. com/ interconnectedmusic
> > > > > > > www. myspace. com/ memorygeist
> > > > > > > www. DiN. org. uk
> > > > > > > www. musicamaximamagneti ca. com
> > > > > > > www. shimarecords. co. uk
> > > > > > > www. rubberrecords. gr
> > > > > > > Athens - Greece
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --- On Tue, 11/25/08, Frequency Divider <freq.div@ .>  
> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > From: Frequency Divider <freq.div@ .>
> > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Doepfer_a100] Re: starting a modular - Z3000
> > > > waveform
> > > > > > quality?
> > > > > > > To: Doepfer_a100@ yahoogroups. com
> > > > > > > Date: Tuesday, November 25, 2008, 9:31 PM
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > i would like to suggest the creation of a seperate list  
> or yahoo
> > > > > > group
> > > > > > > for any future sine wave purity discussions. you could  
> even join
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > alternate tunings list for obsessive talk about tuning  
> the vco
> > > > in
> > > > > > cents
> > > > > > > and fractions of cents
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Argitoth schreef:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > btw, here's the Tip Top Audio VCO waveform test:
> > > > > > > > http://www.muffwigg ler.com/forum/ viewtopic. php?t=2158
> > > > > > > > <http://www.muffwigg ler.com/forum/ viewtopic. php?t=2158 
> >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Is it just me or does Analogue Systems VCO produce  
> better
> > > > > > traingles and
> > > > > > > > sines?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Thanks James,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Laryn91, I just recorded my synth using the filter as a
> > > > > > waveshaper.
> > > > > > > > Good tracking is not needed, you just have to patch a  
> 1v/oct
> > > > > > signal
> > > > > > > > into the filter's VC, but that VC needs an attenuator.  
> You
> > > > don't
> > > > > > want
> > > > > > > > to give it full VC. Here's the recording:
> > > > > > > > http://www.elanhick ler.com/misc/ filter-waveshapi ng- 
> test.wav
> > > > > > > > <http://www.elanhick ler.com/misc/ filter-waveshapi
> > ng-test.wav
> > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > 1. Raw sound without filtering.
> > > > > > > > 2. With filtering (notice how you can't hear low  
> notes, that's
> > > > > > how it
> > > > > > > > should be with sine waves, however the problem is that  
> low
> > > > notes
> > > > > > also
> > > > > > > > have small peaks)
> > > > > > > > 3. With filtering used as a modulator (the lesser  
> peaks means
> > > > > > it's not
> > > > > > > > good as a modulator, not enough volume anymore)
> > > > > > > > 4. Without filtering used as a pitch modulator (this  
> is how
> > > > the
> > > > > > > > modulation should sound)
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Hmm... Its anyone's guess if a filter is really worth  
> using
> > > > as a
> > > > > > waveshaper.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- ---------
> > > > --------- -
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > > > > > > > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg. com
> > > > > > > > Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.10/1810 -  
> Release
> > > > Date:
> > > > > > 11/24/2008 2:36 PM
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> >
>
>
> 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

perfect sines can create sound that only perfect sines can create,
musical and non-musical.

On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 2:17 AM, Monroe Eskew <monroe.eskew@gmail.com> wrote:
> I'm just curious what relevance to music is. It doesn't make sense to
> complain when a flute doesn't produce a pure sine. Each instrument
> has its own character and musical desirability. Lots of the best
> tones from analog synths are far from pure sine. I can see why
> someone would want that pure sine sound in a particular musical
> application, but can't you approximate it well enough for musical
> purposes with standard equipment like A111 or RS95, or as you mention
> M15 or ZO? If you run it through a strong LPF with no resonance then
> you further shape the wave towards sine perfection.
>
> I'm just wondering if you are interested in musical applications or
> maybe scientific applications instead? Or are you just a
> perfectionist? (It's OK if you are.)
>
> Monroe
>
> On Nov 29, 2008, at 8:20 AM, laryn91 wrote:
>
>> I don't get it either. All I asked is if anyone knows of any euro
>> VCO that can produce a sine
>> wave without audible harmonic distortion (Plan-B and ZO so far). To
>> me this a very useful
>> feature.
>>
>> But my request seems to get hijacked by self-righteous posters who
>> expect everyone to
>> either adopt their personal analog synthesis religion or justify
>> their inability to hear
>> harmonic distortion.
>>
>> --- In Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com, "madrayken" <dene.carter@...>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > Only just joined this curiously tense thread.
>> >
>> > Is there something so fundamentally (unintended joke) annoying about
>> > wanting sine waves when spending well over a thousand pounds on a
>> > mono-synth?
>> >
>> > *I* want sine waves as pure as possible because I like using ring
>> mod
>> > which tends to sound rather nasty and noisy with anything other than
>> > pure sines. I know because I've tried using things other than sine
>> > waves, not because someone told me so.
>> >
>> > I heard the A110 wasn't a pure sine.
>> > I bought an A111 and a dual cwejman instead.
>> > They produce nice non-noisy sines and the ring mod produced sounds
>> > good to my ears.
>> > I am now happy.
>> >
>> > I'm happy to hear what solutions other people have found to the
>> > pure-sine dilemma. I'm also happy to hear that other people don't
>> care
>> > about pure sines - that's interesting in itself, and I love hearing
>> > the work-arounds.
>> >
>> > Can't we all move on or play nice?
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --- In Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com, Monroe Eskew <monroe.eskew@>
>> > wrote:
>> > >
>> > > So what is the purpose of this? Isn't a slightly imperfect sine
>> > > impossible to distinguish aurally? And can't you filter out any
>> > > imperfections to near-silence with an LPF?
>> > >
>> > > On Nov 28, 2008, at 10:02 AM, laryn91 wrote:
>> > >
>> > > > My ZO starts to distort at lower freqs (looks like a square with
>> > > > rounded corners). So it's a
>> > > > sine for only part of its range.
>> > > >
>> > > > I'm not so much interested about whose *distorted* sine wave
>> sounds
>> > > > best, but who's sine
>> > > > output actually has no audible harmonic distortion (i.e
>> fundamental
>> > > > only).
>> > > >
>> > > > --- In Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com, Bakis Sirros
>> > > > <synth_freak_2000@> wrote:
>> > > > >
>> > > > > or maybe Cyndustries Zeroscillator...i think that should
>> also have
>> > > > a very good sinewave.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > that said, i also really like a lot the sine of the A111's
>> (i use
>> > > > them all the time!) and the
>> > > > sine of the AFG (regarding Euro).
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Bakis Sirros - Parallel Worlds / Interconnected / Memory Geist
>> > > > > [Doepfer_a100] group owner
>> > > > > www. parallel - worlds - music. com
>> > > > > www. myspace. com/ parallelworldsmusic
>> > > > > www. myspace. com/ interconnectedmusic
>> > > > > www. myspace. com/ memorygeist
>> > > > > www. DiN. org. uk
>> > > > > www. musicamaximamagnetica. com
>> > > > > www. shimarecords. co. uk
>> > > > > www. rubberrecords. gr
>> > > > > Athens - Greece
>> > > > >
>> > > > > --- On Fri, 11/28/08, laryn91 <caymus91@> wrote:
>> > > > >
>> > > > > From: laryn91 <caymus91@>
>> > > > > Subject: [Doepfer_a100] Re: starting a modular - Z3000
>> waveform
>> > > > quality?
>> > > > > To: Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com
>> > > > > Date: Friday, November 28, 2008, 7:17 PM
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > > I originally asked if anybody sold a VCO with undistorted sine
>> > > > outputs. In summary here
>> > > > > are the replies I got:
>> > > > >
>> > > > > 1 - Manufactures claim they can spec any wave with rounded
>> peaks
>> > > > as "Sine". Even if
>> > > > you
>> > > > > can clearly hear even harmonic distortion - any roundish
>> looking
>> > > > shape is a close
>> > > > enough
>> > > > > to be called a Sine.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > 2 - Analog vs. Digital religion states that analog must always
>> > > > remain imprecise because
>> > > > > that is its character. We don't want a clean analog wave
>> with no
>> > > > added harmonics in our
>> > > > > system because that would make it digital.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > 3 - Finally the topic police posted their overall
>> disapproval of
>> > > > this discussion. Even
>> > > > > banning members was suggested!
>> > > > >
>> > > > > So I learned if you want a real sine wave (as defined by
>> Fourier),
>> > > > get Plan-B Model 15...
>> > > > >
>> > > > > --- In Doepfer_a100@ yahoogroups. com, york luethje <ybl@>
>> wrote:
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > Why ban people? I found the debate lively at first,
>> although it
>> > > > later turned somewhat
>> > > > > obnoxious. Dieter Doepfer has given an excellent reply and I
>> think
>> > > > matters should rest
>> > > > > there.
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > York
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __
>> > > > > > From: kovski774 <kovski@>
>> > > > > > To: Doepfer_a100@ yahoogroups. com
>> > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 6:30:55 AM
>> > > > > > Subject: [Doepfer_a100] Re: starting a modular - Z3000
>> waveform
>> > > > quality?
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > or perhaps we can just ban argitoth? the guy's a trainwreck,
>> > > > spoils
>> > > > > > every message board he signs up to with inane opinions
>> presented
>> > > > as
>> > > > > > fact and a TOTAL lack of self awareness.
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > --- In Doepfer_a100@ yahoogroups. com, Bakis Sirros
>> > > > > > <synth_freak_ 2000@> wrote:
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > yes, good idea. i can then NOT join that group...
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > Bakis Sirros - Parallel Worlds / Interconnected / Memory
>> Geist
>> > > > > > > [Doepfer_a100] group owner
>> > > > > > > www. parallel - worlds - music. com
>> > > > > > > www. myspace. com/ parallelworldsmusic
>> > > > > > > www. myspace. com/ interconnectedmusic
>> > > > > > > www. myspace. com/ memorygeist
>> > > > > > > www. DiN. org. uk
>> > > > > > > www. musicamaximamagneti ca. com
>> > > > > > > www. shimarecords. co. uk
>> > > > > > > www. rubberrecords. gr
>> > > > > > > Athens - Greece
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > --- On Tue, 11/25/08, Frequency Divider <freq.div@ .>
>> wrote:
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > From: Frequency Divider <freq.div@ .>
>> > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Doepfer_a100] Re: starting a modular - Z3000
>> > > > waveform
>> > > > > > quality?
>> > > > > > > To: Doepfer_a100@ yahoogroups. com
>> > > > > > > Date: Tuesday, November 25, 2008, 9:31 PM
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > i would like to suggest the creation of a seperate list
>> or yahoo
>> > > > > > group
>> > > > > > > for any future sine wave purity discussions. you could
>> even join
>> > > > > > the
>> > > > > > > alternate tunings list for obsessive talk about tuning
>> the vco
>> > > > in
>> > > > > > cents
>> > > > > > > and fractions of cents
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > Argitoth schreef:
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > btw, here's the Tip Top Audio VCO waveform test:
>> > > > > > > > http://www.muffwigg ler.com/forum/ viewtopic. php?t=2158
>> > > > > > > > <http://www.muffwigg ler.com/forum/ viewtopic. php?t=2158
>> >
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > Is it just me or does Analogue Systems VCO produce
>> better
>> > > > > > traingles and
>> > > > > > > > sines?
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > Thanks James,
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > Laryn91, I just recorded my synth using the filter as a
>> > > > > > waveshaper.
>> > > > > > > > Good tracking is not needed, you just have to patch a
>> 1v/oct
>> > > > > > signal
>> > > > > > > > into the filter's VC, but that VC needs an attenuator.
>> You
>> > > > don't
>> > > > > > want
>> > > > > > > > to give it full VC. Here's the recording:
>> > > > > > > > http://www.elanhick ler.com/misc/ filter-waveshapi ng-
>> test.wav
>> > > > > > > > <http://www.elanhick ler.com/misc/ filter-waveshapi
>> > ng-test.wav
>> > > > >
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > 1. Raw sound without filtering.
>> > > > > > > > 2. With filtering (notice how you can't hear low
>> notes, that's
>> > > > > > how it
>> > > > > > > > should be with sine waves, however the problem is that
>> low
>> > > > notes
>> > > > > > also
>> > > > > > > > have small peaks)
>> > > > > > > > 3. With filtering used as a modulator (the lesser
>> peaks means
>> > > > > > it's not
>> > > > > > > > good as a modulator, not enough volume anymore)
>> > > > > > > > 4. Without filtering used as a pitch modulator (this
>> is how
>> > > > the
>> > > > > > > > modulation should sound)
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > Hmm... Its anyone's guess if a filter is really worth
>> using
>> > > > as a
>> > > > > > waveshaper.
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- ---------
>> > > > --------- -
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message.
>> > > > > > > > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg. com
>> > > > > > > > Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.10/1810 -
>> Release
>> > > > Date:
>> > > > > > 11/24/2008 2:36 PM
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>> > > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>> > > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>> > >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> 



-- 
www.elanhickler.com

Hi all,

i want to build myself a little VC electro motor, you know, one of  
these little model-plane 12V motors but with VC RPM. It's not supposed  
to track V/oct cleanly, just be somewhat predictably controllable via  
a CV.

I'm not much of an electronics genius, but i figured that i would use  
a non-inverting amp based on an OP-amp to buffer the CV, then use the  
output as the voltage to drive the motor (the second connector of the  
motor being connected to ground).  Obviously, the Op-amp would be  
powered by the a-100 +/-12 V, so the design should be able to output  
-12...12V to drive the motor (with the negative voltage reversing  
direction).

Does that sound about right?


cheers,
denis

You could say that about any waveform, instrument, songbird, or  
Christopher Walken.

On Dec 1, 2008, at 6:51 AM, Argitoth wrote:

> perfect sines can create sound that only perfect sines can create,
> musical and non-musical.
>
> On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 2:17 AM, Monroe Eskew  
> <monroe.eskew@gmail.com> wrote:
> > I'm just curious what relevance to music is. It doesn't make sense  
> to
> > complain when a flute doesn't produce a pure sine. Each instrument
> > has its own character and musical desirability. Lots of the best
> > tones from analog synths are far from pure sine. I can see why
> > someone would want that pure sine sound in a particular musical
> > application, but can't you approximate it well enough for musical
> > purposes with standard equipment like A111 or RS95, or as you  
> mention
> > M15 or ZO? If you run it through a strong LPF with no resonance then
> > you further shape the wave towards sine perfection.
> >
> > I'm just wondering if you are interested in musical applications or
> > maybe scientific applications instead? Or are you just a
> > perfectionist? (It's OK if you are.)
> >
> > Monroe
> >
> > On Nov 29, 2008, at 8:20 AM, laryn91 wrote:
> >
> >> I don't get it either. All I asked is if anyone knows of any euro
> >> VCO that can produce a sine
> >> wave without audible harmonic distortion (Plan-B and ZO so far). To
> >> me this a very useful
> >> feature.
> >>
> >> But my request seems to get hijacked by self-righteous posters who
> >> expect everyone to
> >> either adopt their personal analog synthesis religion or justify
> >> their inability to hear
> >> harmonic distortion.
> >>
> >> --- In Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com, "madrayken" <dene.carter@...>
> >> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > Only just joined this curiously tense thread.
> >> >
> >> > Is there something so fundamentally (unintended joke) annoying  
> about
> >> > wanting sine waves when spending well over a thousand pounds on a
> >> > mono-synth?
> >> >
> >> > *I* want sine waves as pure as possible because I like using ring
> >> mod
> >> > which tends to sound rather nasty and noisy with anything other  
> than
> >> > pure sines. I know because I've tried using things other than  
> sine
> >> > waves, not because someone told me so.
> >> >
> >> > I heard the A110 wasn't a pure sine.
> >> > I bought an A111 and a dual cwejman instead.
> >> > They produce nice non-noisy sines and the ring mod produced  
> sounds
> >> > good to my ears.
> >> > I am now happy.
> >> >
> >> > I'm happy to hear what solutions other people have found to the
> >> > pure-sine dilemma. I'm also happy to hear that other people don't
> >> care
> >> > about pure sines - that's interesting in itself, and I love  
> hearing
> >> > the work-arounds.
> >> >
> >> > Can't we all move on or play nice?
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > --- In Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com, Monroe Eskew <monroe.eskew@>
> >> > wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > > So what is the purpose of this? Isn't a slightly imperfect sine
> >> > > impossible to distinguish aurally? And can't you filter out any
> >> > > imperfections to near-silence with an LPF?
> >> > >
> >> > > On Nov 28, 2008, at 10:02 AM, laryn91 wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > > > My ZO starts to distort at lower freqs (looks like a square  
> with
> >> > > > rounded corners). So it's a
> >> > > > sine for only part of its range.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > I'm not so much interested about whose *distorted* sine wave
> >> sounds
> >> > > > best, but who's sine
> >> > > > output actually has no audible harmonic distortion (i.e
> >> fundamental
> >> > > > only).
> >> > > >
> >> > > > --- In Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com, Bakis Sirros
> >> > > > <synth_freak_2000@> wrote:
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > or maybe Cyndustries Zeroscillator...i think that should
> >> also have
> >> > > > a very good sinewave.
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > that said, i also really like a lot the sine of the A111's
> >> (i use
> >> > > > them all the time!) and the
> >> > > > sine of the AFG (regarding Euro).
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > Bakis Sirros - Parallel Worlds / Interconnected / Memory  
> Geist
> >> > > > > [Doepfer_a100] group owner
> >> > > > > www. parallel - worlds - music. com
> >> > > > > www. myspace. com/ parallelworldsmusic
> >> > > > > www. myspace. com/ interconnectedmusic
> >> > > > > www. myspace. com/ memorygeist
> >> > > > > www. DiN. org. uk
> >> > > > > www. musicamaximamagnetica. com
> >> > > > > www. shimarecords. co. uk
> >> > > > > www. rubberrecords. gr
> >> > > > > Athens - Greece
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > --- On Fri, 11/28/08, laryn91 <caymus91@> wrote:
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > From: laryn91 <caymus91@>
> >> > > > > Subject: [Doepfer_a100] Re: starting a modular - Z3000
> >> waveform
> >> > > > quality?
> >> > > > > To: Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com
> >> > > > > Date: Friday, November 28, 2008, 7:17 PM
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > I originally asked if anybody sold a VCO with undistorted  
> sine
> >> > > > outputs. In summary here
> >> > > > > are the replies I got:
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > 1 - Manufactures claim they can spec any wave with rounded
> >> peaks
> >> > > > as "Sine". Even if
> >> > > > you
> >> > > > > can clearly hear even harmonic distortion - any roundish
> >> looking
> >> > > > shape is a close
> >> > > > enough
> >> > > > > to be called a Sine.
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > 2 - Analog vs. Digital religion states that analog must  
> always
> >> > > > remain imprecise because
> >> > > > > that is its character. We don't want a clean analog wave
> >> with no
> >> > > > added harmonics in our
> >> > > > > system because that would make it digital.
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > 3 - Finally the topic police posted their overall
> >> disapproval of
> >> > > > this discussion. Even
> >> > > > > banning members was suggested!
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > So I learned if you want a real sine wave (as defined by
> >> Fourier),
> >> > > > get Plan-B Model 15...
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > --- In Doepfer_a100@ yahoogroups. com, york luethje <ybl@>
> >> wrote:
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > Why ban people? I found the debate lively at first,
> >> although it
> >> > > > later turned somewhat
> >> > > > > obnoxious. Dieter Doepfer has given an excellent reply  
> and I
> >> think
> >> > > > matters should rest
> >> > > > > there.
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > York
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __
> >> > > > > > From: kovski774 <kovski@>
> >> > > > > > To: Doepfer_a100@ yahoogroups. com
> >> > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 6:30:55 AM
> >> > > > > > Subject: [Doepfer_a100] Re: starting a modular - Z3000
> >> waveform
> >> > > > quality?
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > or perhaps we can just ban argitoth? the guy's a  
> trainwreck,
> >> > > > spoils
> >> > > > > > every message board he signs up to with inane opinions
> >> presented
> >> > > > as
> >> > > > > > fact and a TOTAL lack of self awareness.
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > --- In Doepfer_a100@ yahoogroups. com, Bakis Sirros
> >> > > > > > <synth_freak_ 2000@> wrote:
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > yes, good idea. i can then NOT join that group...
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > Bakis Sirros - Parallel Worlds / Interconnected /  
> Memory
> >> Geist
> >> > > > > > > [Doepfer_a100] group owner
> >> > > > > > > www. parallel - worlds - music. com
> >> > > > > > > www. myspace. com/ parallelworldsmusic
> >> > > > > > > www. myspace. com/ interconnectedmusic
> >> > > > > > > www. myspace. com/ memorygeist
> >> > > > > > > www. DiN. org. uk
> >> > > > > > > www. musicamaximamagneti ca. com
> >> > > > > > > www. shimarecords. co. uk
> >> > > > > > > www. rubberrecords. gr
> >> > > > > > > Athens - Greece
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > --- On Tue, 11/25/08, Frequency Divider <freq.div@ .>
> >> wrote:
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > From: Frequency Divider <freq.div@ .>
> >> > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Doepfer_a100] Re: starting a modular -  
> Z3000
> >> > > > waveform
> >> > > > > > quality?
> >> > > > > > > To: Doepfer_a100@ yahoogroups. com
> >> > > > > > > Date: Tuesday, November 25, 2008, 9:31 PM
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > i would like to suggest the creation of a seperate list
> >> or yahoo
> >> > > > > > group
> >> > > > > > > for any future sine wave purity discussions. you could
> >> even join
> >> > > > > > the
> >> > > > > > > alternate tunings list for obsessive talk about tuning
> >> the vco
> >> > > > in
> >> > > > > > cents
> >> > > > > > > and fractions of cents
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > Argitoth schreef:
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > btw, here's the Tip Top Audio VCO waveform test:
> >> > > > > > > > http://www.muffwigg ler.com/forum/ viewtopic. php? 
> t=2158
> >> > > > > > > > <http://www.muffwigg ler.com/forum/ viewtopic. php? 
> t=2158
> >> >
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > Is it just me or does Analogue Systems VCO produce
> >> better
> >> > > > > > traingles and
> >> > > > > > > > sines?
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > Thanks James,
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > Laryn91, I just recorded my synth using the filter  
> as a
> >> > > > > > waveshaper.
> >> > > > > > > > Good tracking is not needed, you just have to patch a
> >> 1v/oct
> >> > > > > > signal
> >> > > > > > > > into the filter's VC, but that VC needs an  
> attenuator.
> >> You
> >> > > > don't
> >> > > > > > want
> >> > > > > > > > to give it full VC. Here's the recording:
> >> > > > > > > > http://www.elanhick ler.com/misc/ filter-waveshapi  
> ng-
> >> test.wav
> >> > > > > > > > <http://www.elanhick ler.com/misc/ filter-waveshapi
> >> > ng-test.wav
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > 1. Raw sound without filtering.
> >> > > > > > > > 2. With filtering (notice how you can't hear low
> >> notes, that's
> >> > > > > > how it
> >> > > > > > > > should be with sine waves, however the problem is  
> that
> >> low
> >> > > > notes
> >> > > > > > also
> >> > > > > > > > have small peaks)
> >> > > > > > > > 3. With filtering used as a modulator (the lesser
> >> peaks means
> >> > > > > > it's not
> >> > > > > > > > good as a modulator, not enough volume anymore)
> >> > > > > > > > 4. Without filtering used as a pitch modulator (this
> >> is how
> >> > > > the
> >> > > > > > > > modulation should sound)
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > Hmm... Its anyone's guess if a filter is really worth
> >> using
> >> > > > as a
> >> > > > > > waveshaper.
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- ---------
> >> > > > --------- -
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message.
> >> > > > > > > > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg. com
> >> > > > > > > > Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.10/1810 -
> >> Release
> >> > > > Date:
> >> > > > > > 11/24/2008 2:36 PM
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >> > > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >> > >
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
>
> -- 
> www.elanhickler.com
>
> 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

By your question, I'm guessing you're either unfamiliar with or never designed sounds 
using Additive Synthesis. But quality sines are a necessary component for these cool class 
of sounds. For example, if you wanted to create a sound similar in character and dynamics 
of a flute, you could probably make a pretty good one controlling 3 or 4 sine wave 
oscillators as the excitation. There are many sources for info on the web about Additive 
Synthesis if you're interested. You can't make the same type of dynamic sounds with only 
subtractive synthesis.

I also find the sine very useful as a natural sounding modulation source. The A-111 
rounded peak triangle wave lacks that natural characteristic. And if you want more fine 
and subtle control for FM, nothing beats a sine!

A sine wave is useful as building block only if it contains the fundamental and no 
overtones. An audibly distorted sine wave is not "character", but imprecision and 
sloppiness. If the A-111 outputs a triangle-with-rounded-peaks, it should not mislead 
customers and spec it as a "Sine". Call it Tri2 or Soft Tri instead. A Sine means something 
very specific: 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sine_wave

If the A-111 produced ramped or rounded edge waves at its "Square" wave out jack - 
would you think that's "character " or just a faulty or bad design?




--- In Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com, Monroe Eskew <monroe.eskew@...> wrote:

>
> I'm just curious what relevance to music is.  It doesn't make sense to  
> complain when a flute doesn't produce a pure sine.  Each instrument  
> has its own character and musical desirability.  Lots of the best  
> tones from analog synths are far from pure sine.  I can see why  
> someone would want that pure sine sound in a particular musical  
> application, but can't you approximate it well enough for musical  
> purposes with standard equipment like A111 or RS95, or as you mention  
> M15 or ZO?  If you run it through a strong LPF with no resonance then  
> you further shape the wave towards sine perfection.
> 
> I'm just wondering if you are interested in musical applications or  
> maybe scientific applications instead?  Or are you just a  
> perfectionist?  (It's OK if you are.)
> 
> Monroe
> 
> 
> On Nov 29, 2008, at 8:20 AM, laryn91 wrote:
> 
> > I don't get it either. All I asked is if anyone knows of any euro  
> > VCO that can produce a sine
> > wave without audible harmonic distortion (Plan-B and ZO so far). To  
> > me this a very useful
> > feature.
> >
> > But my request seems to get hijacked by self-righteous posters who  
> > expect everyone to
> > either adopt their personal analog synthesis religion or justify  
> > their inability to hear
> > harmonic distortion.
> >
> > --- In Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com, "madrayken" <dene.carter@>  
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Only just joined this curiously tense thread.
> > >
> > > Is there something so fundamentally (unintended joke) annoying about
> > > wanting sine waves when spending well over a thousand pounds on a
> > > mono-synth?
> > >
> > > *I* want sine waves as pure as possible because I like using ring  
> > mod
> > > which tends to sound rather nasty and noisy with anything other than
> > > pure sines. I know because I've tried using things other than sine
> > > waves, not because someone told me so.
> > >
> > > I heard the A110 wasn't a pure sine.
> > > I bought an A111 and a dual cwejman instead.
> > > They produce nice non-noisy sines and the ring mod produced sounds
> > > good to my ears.
> > > I am now happy.
> > >
> > > I'm happy to hear what solutions other people have found to the
> > > pure-sine dilemma. I'm also happy to hear that other people don't  
> > care
> > > about pure sines - that's interesting in itself, and I love hearing
> > > the work-arounds.
> > >
> > > Can't we all move on or play nice?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com, Monroe Eskew <monroe.eskew@>
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > So what is the purpose of this? Isn't a slightly imperfect sine
> > > > impossible to distinguish aurally? And can't you filter out any
> > > > imperfections to near-silence with an LPF?
> > > >
> > > > On Nov 28, 2008, at 10:02 AM, laryn91 wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > My ZO starts to distort at lower freqs (looks like a square with
> > > > > rounded corners). So it's a
> > > > > sine for only part of its range.
> > > > >
> > > > > I'm not so much interested about whose *distorted* sine wave  
> > sounds
> > > > > best, but who's sine
> > > > > output actually has no audible harmonic distortion (i.e  
> > fundamental
> > > > > only).
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com, Bakis Sirros
> > > > > <synth_freak_2000@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > or maybe Cyndustries Zeroscillator...i think that should  
> > also have
> > > > > a very good sinewave.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > that said, i also really like a lot the sine of the A111's  
> > (i use
> > > > > them all the time!) and the
> > > > > sine of the AFG (regarding Euro).
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Bakis Sirros - Parallel Worlds / Interconnected / Memory Geist
> > > > > > [Doepfer_a100] group owner
> > > > > > www. parallel - worlds - music. com
> > > > > > www. myspace. com/ parallelworldsmusic
> > > > > > www. myspace. com/ interconnectedmusic
> > > > > > www. myspace. com/ memorygeist
> > > > > > www. DiN. org. uk
> > > > > > www. musicamaximamagnetica. com
> > > > > > www. shimarecords. co. uk
> > > > > > www. rubberrecords. gr
> > > > > > Athens - Greece
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- On Fri, 11/28/08, laryn91 <caymus91@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > From: laryn91 <caymus91@>
> > > > > > Subject: [Doepfer_a100] Re: starting a modular - Z3000  
> > waveform
> > > > > quality?
> > > > > > To: Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > > Date: Friday, November 28, 2008, 7:17 PM
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I originally asked if anybody sold a VCO with undistorted sine
> > > > > outputs. In summary here
> > > > > > are the replies I got:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 1 - Manufactures claim they can spec any wave with rounded  
> > peaks
> > > > > as "Sine". Even if
> > > > > you
> > > > > > can clearly hear even harmonic distortion - any roundish  
> > looking
> > > > > shape is a close
> > > > > enough
> > > > > > to be called a Sine.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 2 - Analog vs. Digital religion states that analog must always
> > > > > remain imprecise because
> > > > > > that is its character. We don't want a clean analog wave  
> > with no
> > > > > added harmonics in our
> > > > > > system because that would make it digital.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 3 - Finally the topic police posted their overall  
> > disapproval of
> > > > > this discussion. Even
> > > > > > banning members was suggested!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > So I learned if you want a real sine wave (as defined by  
> > Fourier),
> > > > > get Plan-B Model 15...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In Doepfer_a100@ yahoogroups. com, york luethje <ybl@>  
> > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Why ban people? I found the debate lively at first,  
> > although it
> > > > > later turned somewhat
> > > > > > obnoxious. Dieter Doepfer has given an excellent reply and I  
> > think
> > > > > matters should rest
> > > > > > there.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > York
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __
> > > > > > > From: kovski774 <kovski@>
> > > > > > > To: Doepfer_a100@ yahoogroups. com
> > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 6:30:55 AM
> > > > > > > Subject: [Doepfer_a100] Re: starting a modular - Z3000  
> > waveform
> > > > > quality?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > or perhaps we can just ban argitoth? the guy's a trainwreck,
> > > > > spoils
> > > > > > > every message board he signs up to with inane opinions  
> > presented
> > > > > as
> > > > > > > fact and a TOTAL lack of self awareness.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --- In Doepfer_a100@ yahoogroups. com, Bakis Sirros
> > > > > > > <synth_freak_ 2000@> wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > yes, good idea. i can then NOT join that group...
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Bakis Sirros - Parallel Worlds / Interconnected / Memory  
> > Geist
> > > > > > > > [Doepfer_a100] group owner
> > > > > > > > www. parallel - worlds - music. com
> > > > > > > > www. myspace. com/ parallelworldsmusic
> > > > > > > > www. myspace. com/ interconnectedmusic
> > > > > > > > www. myspace. com/ memorygeist
> > > > > > > > www. DiN. org. uk
> > > > > > > > www. musicamaximamagneti ca. com
> > > > > > > > www. shimarecords. co. uk
> > > > > > > > www. rubberrecords. gr
> > > > > > > > Athens - Greece
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > --- On Tue, 11/25/08, Frequency Divider <freq.div@ .>  
> > wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > From: Frequency Divider <freq.div@ .>
> > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Doepfer_a100] Re: starting a modular - Z3000
> > > > > waveform
> > > > > > > quality?
> > > > > > > > To: Doepfer_a100@ yahoogroups. com
> > > > > > > > Date: Tuesday, November 25, 2008, 9:31 PM
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > i would like to suggest the creation of a seperate list  
> > or yahoo
> > > > > > > group
> > > > > > > > for any future sine wave purity discussions. you could  
> > even join
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > alternate tunings list for obsessive talk about tuning  
> > the vco
> > > > > in
> > > > > > > cents
> > > > > > > > and fractions of cents
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Argitoth schreef:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > btw, here's the Tip Top Audio VCO waveform test:
> > > > > > > > > http://www.muffwigg ler.com/forum/ viewtopic. php?t=2158
> > > > > > > > > <http://www.muffwigg ler.com/forum/ viewtopic. php?t=2158 
> > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Is it just me or does Analogue Systems VCO produce  
> > better
> > > > > > > traingles and
> > > > > > > > > sines?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Thanks James,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Laryn91, I just recorded my synth using the filter as a
> > > > > > > waveshaper.
> > > > > > > > > Good tracking is not needed, you just have to patch a  
> > 1v/oct
> > > > > > > signal
> > > > > > > > > into the filter's VC, but that VC needs an attenuator.  
> > You
> > > > > don't
> > > > > > > want
> > > > > > > > > to give it full VC. Here's the recording:
> > > > > > > > > http://www.elanhick ler.com/misc/ filter-waveshapi ng- 
> > test.wav
> > > > > > > > > <http://www.elanhick ler.com/misc/ filter-waveshapi
> > > ng-test.wav
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 1. Raw sound without filtering.
> > > > > > > > > 2. With filtering (notice how you can't hear low  
> > notes, that's
> > > > > > > how it
> > > > > > > > > should be with sine waves, however the problem is that  
> > low
> > > > > notes
> > > > > > > also
> > > > > > > > > have small peaks)
> > > > > > > > > 3. With filtering used as a modulator (the lesser  
> > peaks means
> > > > > > > it's not
> > > > > > > > > good as a modulator, not enough volume anymore)
> > > > > > > > > 4. Without filtering used as a pitch modulator (this  
> > is how
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > modulation should sound)
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Hmm... Its anyone's guess if a filter is really worth  
> > using
> > > > > as a
> > > > > > > waveshaper.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- ---------
> > > > > --------- -
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > > > > > > > > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg. com
> > > > > > > > > Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.10/1810 -  
> > Release
> > > > > Date:
> > > > > > > 11/24/2008 2:36 PM
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

I'd say check out how much current this baby is going to suck from the a100.You
don't want to blow the powersupply in your a100, I guess.

P = I * U

So check the wattage of the motor.
But you probably already did.


Greets

Ernst





On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 4:05 PM, Denis Gökdag <q-art@gmx.net> wrote:

>   Hi all,
>
> i want to build myself a little VC electro motor, you know, one of
> these little model-plane 12V motors but with VC RPM. It's not supposed
> to track V/oct cleanly, just be somewhat predictably controllable via
> a CV.
>
> I'm not much of an electronics genius, but i figured that i would use
> a non-inverting amp based on an OP-amp to buffer the CV, then use the
> output as the voltage to drive the motor (the second connector of the
> motor being connected to ground). Obviously, the Op-amp would be
> powered by the a-100 +/-12 V, so the design should be able to output
> -12...12V to drive the motor (with the negative voltage reversing
> direction).
>
> Does that sound about right?
>
> cheers,
> denis
>
>  
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Good point, i guess i'll want to use some PC power supply for the motor.

Cheers!

d



On Dec 1, 2008, at 5:07 PM, achtung_999 wrote:

> I'd say check out how much current this baby is going to suck from  
> the a100.You
> don't want to blow the powersupply in your a100, I guess.
>
> P = I * U
>
> So check the wattage of the motor.
> But you probably already did.
>
> Greets
>
> Ernst
>
> On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 4:05 PM, Denis Gökdag <q-art@gmx.net> wrote:
>
> > Hi all,
> >
> > i want to build myself a little VC electro motor, you know, one of
> > these little model-plane 12V motors but with VC RPM. It's not  
> supposed
> > to track V/oct cleanly, just be somewhat predictably controllable  
> via
> > a CV.
> >
> > I'm not much of an electronics genius, but i figured that i would  
> use
> > a non-inverting amp based on an OP-amp to buffer the CV, then use  
> the
> > output as the voltage to drive the motor (the second connector of  
> the
> > motor being connected to ground). Obviously, the Op-amp would be
> > powered by the a-100 +/-12 V, so the design should be able to output
> > -12...12V to drive the motor (with the negative voltage reversing
> > direction).
> >
> > Does that sound about right?
> >
> > cheers,
> > denis
> >
> >
> >
>
> .
>
> 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

You must fall into this group:

" I'm guessing you're either unfamiliar with or never
> designed sounds
> using Additive Synthesis. "

I and many others successfully use Additive techniques on our analog synthesizers every 
day. Just because YOU can't or don't know how, you shouldn't make pompus blanket 
statements like yours below. 

It only exposes your lack of depth in analog synthesis techniques ;-)



--- In Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com, achtung_999 <heinrich.himmelwasser@...> 
wrote:
>
> "For example, if you wanted to create a sound similar in character and
> dynamics
> of a flute, you could probably make a pretty good one controlling 3 or 4
> sine wave
> oscillators as the excitation. There are many sources for info on the web
> about Additive
> Synthesis if you're interested."
> 
> 
> I think it is rather extremely naïve that you think you can model natural
> sounds with additive synthesis.History has proven that many people thought
> it was possible but failed in the end.
> Why?
> They could not get the phases of the seperate sine building blocks correctly
> lined up with analog oscillators.
> I guess you could do with reading some of monsieur Fourier's theory.
> 
> It wasn't until computers got significantly powerful enough that Fourier's
> theories could be implemented fully.
> And then still....
> 
> I have nothing against additive synthesis and i understand your need for
> true sine function oscillators for this.
> But please don't act like additive synthesis is going to give you a good
> imitation of an 'existing real life' sound..
> 
> 
> Greetings,
> 
> Ernst
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 5:49 PM, laryn91 <caymus91@...> wrote:
> 
> >   By your question, I'm guessing you're either unfamiliar with or never
> > designed sounds
> > using Additive Synthesis. But quality sines are a necessary component for
> > these cool class
> > of sounds. For example, if you wanted to create a sound similar in
> > character and dynamics
> > of a flute, you could probably make a pretty good one controlling 3 or 4
> > sine wave
> > oscillators as the excitation. There are many sources for info on the web
> > about Additive
> > Synthesis if you're interested. You can't make the same type of dynamic
> > sounds with only
> > subtractive synthesis.
> >
> > I also find the sine very useful as a natural sounding modulation source.
> > The A-111
> > rounded peak triangle wave lacks that natural characteristic. And if you
> > want more fine
> > and subtle control for FM, nothing beats a sine!
> >
> > A sine wave is useful as building block only if it contains the fundamental
> > and no
> > overtones. An audibly distorted sine wave is not "character", but
> > imprecision and
> > sloppiness. If the A-111 outputs a triangle-with-rounded-peaks, it should
> > not mislead
> > customers and spec it as a "Sine". Call it Tri2 or Soft Tri instead. A Sine
> > means something
> > very specific:
> >
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sine_wave
> >
> > If the A-111 produced ramped or rounded edge waves at its "Square" wave out
> > jack -
> > would you think that's "character " or just a faulty or bad design?
> >
> >
> > --- In Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com <Doepfer_a100%40yahoogroups.com>,
> > Monroe Eskew <monroe.eskew@> wrote:
> > >
> > > I'm just curious what relevance to music is. It doesn't make sense to
> > > complain when a flute doesn't produce a pure sine. Each instrument
> > > has its own character and musical desirability. Lots of the best
> > > tones from analog synths are far from pure sine. I can see why
> > > someone would want that pure sine sound in a particular musical
> > > application, but can't you approximate it well enough for musical
> > > purposes with standard equipment like A111 or RS95, or as you mention
> > > M15 or ZO? If you run it through a strong LPF with no resonance then
> > > you further shape the wave towards sine perfection.
> > >
> > > I'm just wondering if you are interested in musical applications or
> > > maybe scientific applications instead? Or are you just a
> > > perfectionist? (It's OK if you are.)
> > >
> > > Monroe
> > >
> > >
> > > On Nov 29, 2008, at 8:20 AM, laryn91 wrote:
> > >
> > > > I don't get it either. All I asked is if anyone knows of any euro
> > > > VCO that can produce a sine
> > > > wave without audible harmonic distortion (Plan-B and ZO so far). To
> > > > me this a very useful
> > > > feature.
> > > >
> > > > But my request seems to get hijacked by self-righteous posters who
> > > > expect everyone to
> > > > either adopt their personal analog synthesis religion or justify
> > > > their inability to hear
> > > > harmonic distortion.
> > > >
> > > > --- In Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com <Doepfer_a100%40yahoogroups.com>,
> > "madrayken" <dene.carter@>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Only just joined this curiously tense thread.
> > > > >
> > > > > Is there something so fundamentally (unintended joke) annoying about
> > > > > wanting sine waves when spending well over a thousand pounds on a
> > > > > mono-synth?
> > > > >
> > > > > *I* want sine waves as pure as possible because I like using ring
> > > > mod
> > > > > which tends to sound rather nasty and noisy with anything other than
> > > > > pure sines. I know because I've tried using things other than sine
> > > > > waves, not because someone told me so.
> > > > >
> > > > > I heard the A110 wasn't a pure sine.
> > > > > I bought an A111 and a dual cwejman instead.
> > > > > They produce nice non-noisy sines and the ring mod produced sounds
> > > > > good to my ears.
> > > > > I am now happy.
> > > > >
> > > > > I'm happy to hear what solutions other people have found to the
> > > > > pure-sine dilemma. I'm also happy to hear that other people don't
> > > > care
> > > > > about pure sines - that's interesting in itself, and I love hearing
> > > > > the work-arounds.
> > > > >
> > > > > Can't we all move on or play nice?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com 
<Doepfer_a100%40yahoogroups.com>,
> > Monroe Eskew <monroe.eskew@>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > So what is the purpose of this? Isn't a slightly imperfect sine
> > > > > > impossible to distinguish aurally? And can't you filter out any
> > > > > > imperfections to near-silence with an LPF?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Nov 28, 2008, at 10:02 AM, laryn91 wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > My ZO starts to distort at lower freqs (looks like a square with
> > > > > > > rounded corners). So it's a
> > > > > > > sine for only part of its range.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I'm not so much interested about whose *distorted* sine wave
> > > > sounds
> > > > > > > best, but who's sine
> > > > > > > output actually has no audible harmonic distortion (i.e
> > > > fundamental
> > > > > > > only).
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --- In 
Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com<Doepfer_a100%40yahoogroups.com>,
> > Bakis Sirros
> > > > > > > <synth_freak_2000@> wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > or maybe Cyndustries Zeroscillator...i think that should
> > > > also have
> > > > > > > a very good sinewave.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > that said, i also really like a lot the sine of the A111's
> > > > (i use
> > > > > > > them all the time!) and the
> > > > > > > sine of the AFG (regarding Euro).
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Bakis Sirros - Parallel Worlds / Interconnected / Memory Geist
> > > > > > > > [Doepfer_a100] group owner
> > > > > > > > www. parallel - worlds - music. com
> > > > > > > > www. myspace. com/ parallelworldsmusic
> > > > > > > > www. myspace. com/ interconnectedmusic
> > > > > > > > www. myspace. com/ memorygeist
> > > > > > > > www. DiN. org. uk
> > > > > > > > www. musicamaximamagnetica. com
> > > > > > > > www. shimarecords. co. uk
> > > > > > > > www. rubberrecords. gr
> > > > > > > > Athens - Greece
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > --- On Fri, 11/28/08, laryn91 <caymus91@> wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > From: laryn91 <caymus91@>
> > > > > > > > Subject: [Doepfer_a100] Re: starting a modular - Z3000
> > > > waveform
> > > > > > > quality?
> > > > > > > > To: 
Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com<Doepfer_a100%40yahoogroups.com>

> > > > > > > > Date: Friday, November 28, 2008, 7:17 PM
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I originally asked if anybody sold a VCO with undistorted sine
> > > > > > > outputs. In summary here
> > > > > > > > are the replies I got:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > 1 - Manufactures claim they can spec any wave with rounded
> > > > peaks
> > > > > > > as "Sine". Even if
> > > > > > > you
> > > > > > > > can clearly hear even harmonic distortion - any roundish
> > > > looking
> > > > > > > shape is a close
> > > > > > > enough
> > > > > > > > to be called a Sine.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > 2 - Analog vs. Digital religion states that analog must always
> > > > > > > remain imprecise because
> > > > > > > > that is its character. We don't want a clean analog wave
> > > > with no
> > > > > > > added harmonics in our
> > > > > > > > system because that would make it digital.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > 3 - Finally the topic police posted their overall
> > > > disapproval of
> > > > > > > this discussion. Even
> > > > > > > > banning members was suggested!
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > So I learned if you want a real sine wave (as defined by
> > > > Fourier),
> > > > > > > get Plan-B Model 15...
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > --- In Doepfer_a100@ yahoogroups. com, york luethje <ybl@>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Why ban people? I found the debate lively at first,
> > > > although it
> > > > > > > later turned somewhat
> > > > > > > > obnoxious. Dieter Doepfer has given an excellent reply and I
> > > > think
> > > > > > > matters should rest
> > > > > > > > there.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > York
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __
> > > > > > > > > From: kovski774 <kovski@>
> > > > > > > > > To: Doepfer_a100@ yahoogroups. com
> > > > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 6:30:55 AM
> > > > > > > > > Subject: [Doepfer_a100] Re: starting a modular - Z3000
> > > > waveform
> > > > > > > quality?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > or perhaps we can just ban argitoth? the guy's a trainwreck,
> > > > > > > spoils
> > > > > > > > > every message board he signs up to with inane opinions
> > > > presented
> > > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > > fact and a TOTAL lack of self awareness.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > --- In Doepfer_a100@ yahoogroups. com, Bakis Sirros
> > > > > > > > > <synth_freak_ 2000@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > yes, good idea. i can then NOT join that group...
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Bakis Sirros - Parallel Worlds / Interconnected / Memory
> > > > Geist
> > > > > > > > > > [Doepfer_a100] group owner
> > > > > > > > > > www. parallel - worlds - music. com
> > > > > > > > > > www. myspace. com/ parallelworldsmusic
> > > > > > > > > > www. myspace. com/ interconnectedmusic
> > > > > > > > > > www. myspace. com/ memorygeist
> > > > > > > > > > www. DiN. org. uk
> > > > > > > > > > www. musicamaximamagneti ca. com
> > > > > > > > > > www. shimarecords. co. uk
> > > > > > > > > > www. rubberrecords. gr
> > > > > > > > > > Athens - Greece
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > --- On Tue, 11/25/08, Frequency Divider <freq.div@ .>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > From: Frequency Divider <freq.div@ .>
> > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Doepfer_a100] Re: starting a modular - Z3000
> > > > > > > waveform
> > > > > > > > > quality?
> > > > > > > > > > To: Doepfer_a100@ yahoogroups. com
> > > > > > > > > > Date: Tuesday, November 25, 2008, 9:31 PM
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > i would like to suggest the creation of a seperate list
> > > > or yahoo
> > > > > > > > > group
> > > > > > > > > > for any future sine wave purity discussions. you could
> > > > even join
> > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > alternate tunings list for obsessive talk about tuning
> > > > the vco
> > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > cents
> > > > > > > > > > and fractions of cents
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Argitoth schreef:
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > btw, here's the Tip Top Audio VCO waveform test:
> > > > > > > > > > > http://www.muffwigg ler.com/forum/ viewtopic. php?t=2158
> > > > > > > > > > > <http://www.muffwigg ler.com/forum/ viewtopic.
> > php?t=2158
> > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Is it just me or does Analogue Systems VCO produce
> > > > better
> > > > > > > > > traingles and
> > > > > > > > > > > sines?
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Thanks James,
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Laryn91, I just recorded my synth using the filter as a
> > > > > > > > > waveshaper.
> > > > > > > > > > > Good tracking is not needed, you just have to patch a
> > > > 1v/oct
> > > > > > > > > signal
> > > > > > > > > > > into the filter's VC, but that VC needs an attenuator.
> > > > You
> > > > > > > don't
> > > > > > > > > want
> > > > > > > > > > > to give it full VC. Here's the recording:
> > > > > > > > > > > http://www.elanhick ler.com/misc/ filter-waveshapi ng-
> > > > test.wav
> > > > > > > > > > > <http://www.elanhick ler.com/misc/ filter-waveshapi
> > > > > ng-test.wav
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > 1. Raw sound without filtering.
> > > > > > > > > > > 2. With filtering (notice how you can't hear low
> > > > notes, that's
> > > > > > > > > how it
> > > > > > > > > > > should be with sine waves, however the problem is that
> > > > low
> > > > > > > notes
> > > > > > > > > also
> > > > > > > > > > > have small peaks)
> > > > > > > > > > > 3. With filtering used as a modulator (the lesser
> > > > peaks means
> > > > > > > > > it's not
> > > > > > > > > > > good as a modulator, not enough volume anymore)
> > > > > > > > > > > 4. Without filtering used as a pitch modulator (this
> > > > is how
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > modulation should sound)
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Hmm... Its anyone's guess if a filter is really worth
> > > > using
> > > > > > > as a
> > > > > > > > > waveshaper.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- ---------
> > > > > > > --------- -
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > > > > > > > > > > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg. com
> > > > > > > > > > > Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.10/1810 -
> > > > Release
> > > > > > > Date:
> > > > > > > > > 11/24/2008 2:36 PM
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
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> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > > > > > > >
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> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

I've been using this PWM circuit to run motors:

http://solorb.com/elect/pwm/pwm1/

Main thing is to use a transistor to do the actual PWM instead of 
running too much current through the opamps themselves. You could 
replace the potentiometer for the PWM with a vactrol of some sort and it 
should work fine for VC. It's something I mean to try myself. I run six 
of these circuits and six 12V cassette player motors from a 12V 0.3 amp 
wall wart, so the draw isn't that heavy at all. You don't want the PWM 
mixed in with your synthesizer grounds however, since it's super noisy! 
So yes, use another PSU, but it doesn't need to be so heavy duty.

Unfortunately, this circuit doesn't do reverse. For that, you will need 
to investigate an IC called an H-Bridge, which can switch from positive 
to negative. Most datasheets of an H Bridge will give a simple app for 
this. You should also look at the documentation of the Arduino project 
for simple PWM motor control circuits, there should be one with an H 
Bridge in there as well.

best!
Derek

Denis Gökdag wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> i want to build myself a little VC electro motor, you know, one of  
> these little model-plane 12V motors but with VC RPM. It's not supposed  
> to track V/oct cleanly, just be somewhat predictably controllable via  
> a CV.
> 
> I'm not much of an electronics genius, but i figured that i would use  
> a non-inverting amp based on an OP-amp to buffer the CV, then use the  
> output as the voltage to drive the motor (the second connector of the  
> motor being connected to ground).  Obviously, the Op-amp would be  
> powered by the a-100 +/-12 V, so the design should be able to output  
> -12...12V to drive the motor (with the negative voltage reversing  
> direction).
> 
> Does that sound about right?
> 
> 
> cheers,
> denis
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
> 

-- 
derek holzer ::: http://www.umatic.nl ::: http://blog.myspace.com/macumbista
---Oblique Strategy # 137:
"Repetition is a form of change"

Ooooooorrrrrrr....... use the PWM out of one of your oscillators to 
control the MOSFET transistor directly. That would be the most simple 
solution, then you could get rid of everything to the left of R9 in that 
schematic, as that is the part which makes the square wave PWM. In that 
case, just use your separate 12V PSU connected via the protection diodes 
to the "D" of the transistor.

Still doesn't do reverse, but that's where the H Bridge would come in.

best,
d.

Derek Holzer wrote:
> I've been using this PWM circuit to run motors:
> 
> http://solorb.com/elect/pwm/pwm1/
> 
> Main thing is to use a transistor to do the actual PWM instead of 
> running too much current through the opamps themselves. You could 
> replace the potentiometer for the PWM with a vactrol of some sort and it 
> should work fine for VC. It's something I mean to try myself. I run six 
> of these circuits and six 12V cassette player motors from a 12V 0.3 amp 
> wall wart, so the draw isn't that heavy at all. You don't want the PWM 
> mixed in with your synthesizer grounds however, since it's super noisy! 
> So yes, use another PSU, but it doesn't need to be so heavy duty.
> 
> Unfortunately, this circuit doesn't do reverse. For that, you will need 
> to investigate an IC called an H-Bridge, which can switch from positive 
> to negative. Most datasheets of an H Bridge will give a simple app for 
> this. You should also look at the documentation of the Arduino project 
> for simple PWM motor control circuits, there should be one with an H 
> Bridge in there as well.
> 
> best!
> Derek
> 
> Denis Gökdag wrote:
>> Hi all,
>>
>> i want to build myself a little VC electro motor, you know, one of  
>> these little model-plane 12V motors but with VC RPM. It's not supposed  
>> to track V/oct cleanly, just be somewhat predictably controllable via  
>> a CV.
>>
>> I'm not much of an electronics genius, but i figured that i would use  
>> a non-inverting amp based on an OP-amp to buffer the CV, then use the  
>> output as the voltage to drive the motor (the second connector of the  
>> motor being connected to ground).  Obviously, the Op-amp would be  
>> powered by the a-100 +/-12 V, so the design should be able to output  
>> -12...12V to drive the motor (with the negative voltage reversing  
>> direction).
>>
>> Does that sound about right?
>>
>>
>> cheers,
>> denis
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------
>>
>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>
>>
>>
>>
> 

-- 
derek holzer ::: http://www.umatic.nl ::: http://blog.myspace.com/macumbista
---Oblique Strategy # 153:
"The inconsistency principle"

"For example, if you wanted to create a sound similar in character and
dynamics
of a flute, you could probably make a pretty good one controlling 3 or 4
sine wave
oscillators as the excitation. There are many sources for info on the web
about Additive
Synthesis if you're interested."


I think it is rather extremely naïve that you think you can model natural
sounds with additive synthesis.History has proven that many people thought
it was possible but failed in the end.
Why?
They could not get the phases of the seperate sine building blocks correctly
lined up with analog oscillators.
I guess you could do with reading some of monsieur Fourier's theory.

It wasn't until computers got significantly powerful enough that Fourier's
theories could be implemented fully.
And then still....

I have nothing against additive synthesis and i understand your need for
true sine function oscillators for this.
But please don't act like additive synthesis is going to give you a good
imitation of an 'existing real life' sound..


Greetings,

Ernst




On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 5:49 PM, laryn91 <caymus91@mac.com> wrote:

>   By your question, I'm guessing you're either unfamiliar with or never
> designed sounds
> using Additive Synthesis. But quality sines are a necessary component for
> these cool class
> of sounds. For example, if you wanted to create a sound similar in
> character and dynamics
> of a flute, you could probably make a pretty good one controlling 3 or 4
> sine wave
> oscillators as the excitation. There are many sources for info on the web
> about Additive
> Synthesis if you're interested. You can't make the same type of dynamic
> sounds with only
> subtractive synthesis.
>
> I also find the sine very useful as a natural sounding modulation source.
> The A-111
> rounded peak triangle wave lacks that natural characteristic. And if you
> want more fine
> and subtle control for FM, nothing beats a sine!
>
> A sine wave is useful as building block only if it contains the fundamental
> and no
> overtones. An audibly distorted sine wave is not "character", but
> imprecision and
> sloppiness. If the A-111 outputs a triangle-with-rounded-peaks, it should
> not mislead
> customers and spec it as a "Sine". Call it Tri2 or Soft Tri instead. A Sine
> means something
> very specific:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sine_wave
>
> If the A-111 produced ramped or rounded edge waves at its "Square" wave out
> jack -
> would you think that's "character " or just a faulty or bad design?
>
>
> --- In Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com <Doepfer_a100%40yahoogroups.com>,
> Monroe Eskew <monroe.eskew@...> wrote:
> >
> > I'm just curious what relevance to music is. It doesn't make sense to
> > complain when a flute doesn't produce a pure sine. Each instrument
> > has its own character and musical desirability. Lots of the best
> > tones from analog synths are far from pure sine. I can see why
> > someone would want that pure sine sound in a particular musical
> > application, but can't you approximate it well enough for musical
> > purposes with standard equipment like A111 or RS95, or as you mention
> > M15 or ZO? If you run it through a strong LPF with no resonance then
> > you further shape the wave towards sine perfection.
> >
> > I'm just wondering if you are interested in musical applications or
> > maybe scientific applications instead? Or are you just a
> > perfectionist? (It's OK if you are.)
> >
> > Monroe
> >
> >
> > On Nov 29, 2008, at 8:20 AM, laryn91 wrote:
> >
> > > I don't get it either. All I asked is if anyone knows of any euro
> > > VCO that can produce a sine
> > > wave without audible harmonic distortion (Plan-B and ZO so far). To
> > > me this a very useful
> > > feature.
> > >
> > > But my request seems to get hijacked by self-righteous posters who
> > > expect everyone to
> > > either adopt their personal analog synthesis religion or justify
> > > their inability to hear
> > > harmonic distortion.
> > >
> > > --- In Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com <Doepfer_a100%40yahoogroups.com>,
> "madrayken" <dene.carter@>
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Only just joined this curiously tense thread.
> > > >
> > > > Is there something so fundamentally (unintended joke) annoying about
> > > > wanting sine waves when spending well over a thousand pounds on a
> > > > mono-synth?
> > > >
> > > > *I* want sine waves as pure as possible because I like using ring
> > > mod
> > > > which tends to sound rather nasty and noisy with anything other than
> > > > pure sines. I know because I've tried using things other than sine
> > > > waves, not because someone told me so.
> > > >
> > > > I heard the A110 wasn't a pure sine.
> > > > I bought an A111 and a dual cwejman instead.
> > > > They produce nice non-noisy sines and the ring mod produced sounds
> > > > good to my ears.
> > > > I am now happy.
> > > >
> > > > I'm happy to hear what solutions other people have found to the
> > > > pure-sine dilemma. I'm also happy to hear that other people don't
> > > care
> > > > about pure sines - that's interesting in itself, and I love hearing
> > > > the work-arounds.
> > > >
> > > > Can't we all move on or play nice?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com <Doepfer_a100%40yahoogroups.com>,
> Monroe Eskew <monroe.eskew@>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > So what is the purpose of this? Isn't a slightly imperfect sine
> > > > > impossible to distinguish aurally? And can't you filter out any
> > > > > imperfections to near-silence with an LPF?
> > > > >
> > > > > On Nov 28, 2008, at 10:02 AM, laryn91 wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > My ZO starts to distort at lower freqs (looks like a square with
> > > > > > rounded corners). So it's a
> > > > > > sine for only part of its range.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I'm not so much interested about whose *distorted* sine wave
> > > sounds
> > > > > > best, but who's sine
> > > > > > output actually has no audible harmonic distortion (i.e
> > > fundamental
> > > > > > only).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com<Doepfer_a100%40yahoogroups.com>,
> Bakis Sirros
> > > > > > <synth_freak_2000@> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > or maybe Cyndustries Zeroscillator...i think that should
> > > also have
> > > > > > a very good sinewave.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > that said, i also really like a lot the sine of the A111's
> > > (i use
> > > > > > them all the time!) and the
> > > > > > sine of the AFG (regarding Euro).
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Bakis Sirros - Parallel Worlds / Interconnected / Memory Geist
> > > > > > > [Doepfer_a100] group owner
> > > > > > > www. parallel - worlds - music. com
> > > > > > > www. myspace. com/ parallelworldsmusic
> > > > > > > www. myspace. com/ interconnectedmusic
> > > > > > > www. myspace. com/ memorygeist
> > > > > > > www. DiN. org. uk
> > > > > > > www. musicamaximamagnetica. com
> > > > > > > www. shimarecords. co. uk
> > > > > > > www. rubberrecords. gr
> > > > > > > Athens - Greece
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --- On Fri, 11/28/08, laryn91 <caymus91@> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > From: laryn91 <caymus91@>
> > > > > > > Subject: [Doepfer_a100] Re: starting a modular - Z3000
> > > waveform
> > > > > > quality?
> > > > > > > To: Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com<Doepfer_a100%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > > > Date: Friday, November 28, 2008, 7:17 PM
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I originally asked if anybody sold a VCO with undistorted sine
> > > > > > outputs. In summary here
> > > > > > > are the replies I got:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > 1 - Manufactures claim they can spec any wave with rounded
> > > peaks
> > > > > > as "Sine". Even if
> > > > > > you
> > > > > > > can clearly hear even harmonic distortion - any roundish
> > > looking
> > > > > > shape is a close
> > > > > > enough
> > > > > > > to be called a Sine.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > 2 - Analog vs. Digital religion states that analog must always
> > > > > > remain imprecise because
> > > > > > > that is its character. We don't want a clean analog wave
> > > with no
> > > > > > added harmonics in our
> > > > > > > system because that would make it digital.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > 3 - Finally the topic police posted their overall
> > > disapproval of
> > > > > > this discussion. Even
> > > > > > > banning members was suggested!
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > So I learned if you want a real sine wave (as defined by
> > > Fourier),
> > > > > > get Plan-B Model 15...
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --- In Doepfer_a100@ yahoogroups. com, york luethje <ybl@>
> > > wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Why ban people? I found the debate lively at first,
> > > although it
> > > > > > later turned somewhat
> > > > > > > obnoxious. Dieter Doepfer has given an excellent reply and I
> > > think
> > > > > > matters should rest
> > > > > > > there.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > York
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __
> > > > > > > > From: kovski774 <kovski@>
> > > > > > > > To: Doepfer_a100@ yahoogroups. com
> > > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 6:30:55 AM
> > > > > > > > Subject: [Doepfer_a100] Re: starting a modular - Z3000
> > > waveform
> > > > > > quality?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > or perhaps we can just ban argitoth? the guy's a trainwreck,
> > > > > > spoils
> > > > > > > > every message board he signs up to with inane opinions
> > > presented
> > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > fact and a TOTAL lack of self awareness.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > --- In Doepfer_a100@ yahoogroups. com, Bakis Sirros
> > > > > > > > <synth_freak_ 2000@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > yes, good idea. i can then NOT join that group...
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Bakis Sirros - Parallel Worlds / Interconnected / Memory
> > > Geist
> > > > > > > > > [Doepfer_a100] group owner
> > > > > > > > > www. parallel - worlds - music. com
> > > > > > > > > www. myspace. com/ parallelworldsmusic
> > > > > > > > > www. myspace. com/ interconnectedmusic
> > > > > > > > > www. myspace. com/ memorygeist
> > > > > > > > > www. DiN. org. uk
> > > > > > > > > www. musicamaximamagneti ca. com
> > > > > > > > > www. shimarecords. co. uk
> > > > > > > > > www. rubberrecords. gr
> > > > > > > > > Athens - Greece
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > --- On Tue, 11/25/08, Frequency Divider <freq.div@ .>
> > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > From: Frequency Divider <freq.div@ .>
> > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Doepfer_a100] Re: starting a modular - Z3000
> > > > > > waveform
> > > > > > > > quality?
> > > > > > > > > To: Doepfer_a100@ yahoogroups. com
> > > > > > > > > Date: Tuesday, November 25, 2008, 9:31 PM
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > i would like to suggest the creation of a seperate list
> > > or yahoo
> > > > > > > > group
> > > > > > > > > for any future sine wave purity discussions. you could
> > > even join
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > alternate tunings list for obsessive talk about tuning
> > > the vco
> > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > cents
> > > > > > > > > and fractions of cents
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Argitoth schreef:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > btw, here's the Tip Top Audio VCO waveform test:
> > > > > > > > > > http://www.muffwigg ler.com/forum/ viewtopic. php?t=2158
> > > > > > > > > > <http://www.muffwigg ler.com/forum/ viewtopic.
> php?t=2158
> > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Is it just me or does Analogue Systems VCO produce
> > > better
> > > > > > > > traingles and
> > > > > > > > > > sines?
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Thanks James,
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Laryn91, I just recorded my synth using the filter as a
> > > > > > > > waveshaper.
> > > > > > > > > > Good tracking is not needed, you just have to patch a
> > > 1v/oct
> > > > > > > > signal
> > > > > > > > > > into the filter's VC, but that VC needs an attenuator.
> > > You
> > > > > > don't
> > > > > > > > want
> > > > > > > > > > to give it full VC. Here's the recording:
> > > > > > > > > > http://www.elanhick ler.com/misc/ filter-waveshapi ng-
> > > test.wav
> > > > > > > > > > <http://www.elanhick ler.com/misc/ filter-waveshapi
> > > > ng-test.wav
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > 1. Raw sound without filtering.
> > > > > > > > > > 2. With filtering (notice how you can't hear low
> > > notes, that's
> > > > > > > > how it
> > > > > > > > > > should be with sine waves, however the problem is that
> > > low
> > > > > > notes
> > > > > > > > also
> > > > > > > > > > have small peaks)
> > > > > > > > > > 3. With filtering used as a modulator (the lesser
> > > peaks means
> > > > > > > > it's not
> > > > > > > > > > good as a modulator, not enough volume anymore)
> > > > > > > > > > 4. Without filtering used as a pitch modulator (this
> > > is how
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > modulation should sound)
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Hmm... Its anyone's guess if a filter is really worth
> > > using
> > > > > > as a
> > > > > > > > waveshaper.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- ---------
> > > > > > --------- -
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > > > > > > > > > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg. com
> > > > > > > > > > Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.10/1810 -
> > > Release
> > > > > > Date:
> > > > > > > > 11/24/2008 2:36 PM
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
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> > > > > > > > >
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> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
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> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
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> > > > >
> > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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> >
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>  
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I agree. My professional expertise is in speech research and speech synthesis and studies 
have shown the human ear cannot distinguish static phase relationships in a monophonic 
signal.

BTW, looking at many of the posts for this thread (not yours), I notice arguments are often 
extreme black and white from the usual confrontational posters. If you can't do Additive 
synthesis 100% on analog then it's useless. If you can't make a pure 0% THD sine, then 
they are useless. Useful sines can only be generated by sine cores, etc...

I find a lot of utility with my 1% THD triangle converted sines in Additive and FM 
applications :-)




--- In Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com, Chris Muir <cbm@...> wrote:

>
> 
> On Dec 1, 2008, at 10:03 AM, achtung_999 wrote:
> 
> > I think it is rather extremely naïve that you think you can model  
> > natural
> > sounds with additive synthesis.History has proven that many people  
> > thought
> > it was possible but failed in the end.
> 
> 
> There have a number of pretty good additive synthesis and resynthesis  
> projects. Several systems, albeit digital, allowed phases to roll  
> freely. There have price barriers in commercializing these, though.
> 
> There are certainly challenges in implementing an additive system with  
> analog electronics, but keeping phase relationships might not be as  
> important as you think, though.
> 
> - C
> 
> Chris Muir
> cbm@...	
> http://www.xfade.com
>

Go on be naive.

On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 7:19 PM, laryn91 <caymus91@mac.com> wrote:

>   You must fall into this group:
>
>
> " I'm guessing you're either unfamiliar with or never
> > designed sounds
> > using Additive Synthesis. "
>
> I and many others successfully use Additive techniques on our analog
> synthesizers every
> day. Just because YOU can't or don't know how, you shouldn't make pompus
> blanket
> statements like yours below.
>
> It only exposes your lack of depth in analog synthesis techniques ;-)
>
> --- In Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com <Doepfer_a100%40yahoogroups.com>,
> achtung_999 <heinrich.himmelwasser@...>
> wrote:
> >
> > "For example, if you wanted to create a sound similar in character and
> > dynamics
> > of a flute, you could probably make a pretty good one controlling 3 or 4
> > sine wave
> > oscillators as the excitation. There are many sources for info on the web
> > about Additive
> > Synthesis if you're interested."
> >
> >
> > I think it is rather extremely naïve that you think you can model natural
> > sounds with additive synthesis.History has proven that many people
> thought
> > it was possible but failed in the end.
> > Why?
> > They could not get the phases of the seperate sine building blocks
> correctly
> > lined up with analog oscillators.
> > I guess you could do with reading some of monsieur Fourier's theory.
> >
> > It wasn't until computers got significantly powerful enough that
> Fourier's
> > theories could be implemented fully.
> > And then still....
> >
> > I have nothing against additive synthesis and i understand your need for
> > true sine function oscillators for this.
> > But please don't act like additive synthesis is going to give you a good
> > imitation of an 'existing real life' sound..
> >
> >
> > Greetings,
> >
> > Ernst
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 5:49 PM, laryn91 <caymus91@...> wrote:
> >
> > > By your question, I'm guessing you're either unfamiliar with or never
> > > designed sounds
> > > using Additive Synthesis. But quality sines are a necessary component
> for
> > > these cool class
> > > of sounds. For example, if you wanted to create a sound similar in
> > > character and dynamics
> > > of a flute, you could probably make a pretty good one controlling 3 or
> 4
> > > sine wave
> > > oscillators as the excitation. There are many sources for info on the
> web
> > > about Additive
> > > Synthesis if you're interested. You can't make the same type of dynamic
> > > sounds with only
> > > subtractive synthesis.
> > >
> > > I also find the sine very useful as a natural sounding modulation
> source.
> > > The A-111
> > > rounded peak triangle wave lacks that natural characteristic. And if
> you
> > > want more fine
> > > and subtle control for FM, nothing beats a sine!
> > >
> > > A sine wave is useful as building block only if it contains the
> fundamental
> > > and no
> > > overtones. An audibly distorted sine wave is not "character", but
> > > imprecision and
> > > sloppiness. If the A-111 outputs a triangle-with-rounded-peaks, it
> should
> > > not mislead
> > > customers and spec it as a "Sine". Call it Tri2 or Soft Tri instead. A
> Sine
> > > means something
> > > very specific:
> > >
> > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sine_wave
> > >
> > > If the A-111 produced ramped or rounded edge waves at its "Square" wave
> out
> > > jack -
> > > would you think that's "character " or just a faulty or bad design?
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com <Doepfer_a100%40yahoogroups.com><Doepfer_a100%
> 40yahoogroups.com>,
>
> > > Monroe Eskew <monroe.eskew@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I'm just curious what relevance to music is. It doesn't make sense to
> > > > complain when a flute doesn't produce a pure sine. Each instrument
> > > > has its own character and musical desirability. Lots of the best
> > > > tones from analog synths are far from pure sine. I can see why
> > > > someone would want that pure sine sound in a particular musical
> > > > application, but can't you approximate it well enough for musical
> > > > purposes with standard equipment like A111 or RS95, or as you mention
> > > > M15 or ZO? If you run it through a strong LPF with no resonance then
> > > > you further shape the wave towards sine perfection.
> > > >
> > > > I'm just wondering if you are interested in musical applications or
> > > > maybe scientific applications instead? Or are you just a
> > > > perfectionist? (It's OK if you are.)
> > > >
> > > > Monroe
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Nov 29, 2008, at 8:20 AM, laryn91 wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > I don't get it either. All I asked is if anyone knows of any euro
> > > > > VCO that can produce a sine
> > > > > wave without audible harmonic distortion (Plan-B and ZO so far). To
> > > > > me this a very useful
> > > > > feature.
> > > > >
> > > > > But my request seems to get hijacked by self-righteous posters who
> > > > > expect everyone to
> > > > > either adopt their personal analog synthesis religion or justify
> > > > > their inability to hear
> > > > > harmonic distortion.
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com<Doepfer_a100%40yahoogroups.com><Doepfer_a100%
> 40yahoogroups.com>,
> > > "madrayken" <dene.carter@>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Only just joined this curiously tense thread.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Is there something so fundamentally (unintended joke) annoying
> about
> > > > > > wanting sine waves when spending well over a thousand pounds on a
> > > > > > mono-synth?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > *I* want sine waves as pure as possible because I like using ring
> > > > > mod
> > > > > > which tends to sound rather nasty and noisy with anything other
> than
> > > > > > pure sines. I know because I've tried using things other than
> sine
> > > > > > waves, not because someone told me so.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I heard the A110 wasn't a pure sine.
> > > > > > I bought an A111 and a dual cwejman instead.
> > > > > > They produce nice non-noisy sines and the ring mod produced
> sounds
> > > > > > good to my ears.
> > > > > > I am now happy.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I'm happy to hear what solutions other people have found to the
> > > > > > pure-sine dilemma. I'm also happy to hear that other people don't
> > > > > care
> > > > > > about pure sines - that's interesting in itself, and I love
> hearing
> > > > > > the work-arounds.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Can't we all move on or play nice?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com<Doepfer_a100%40yahoogroups.com>
> <Doepfer_a100%40yahoogroups.com>,
> > > Monroe Eskew <monroe.eskew@>
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > So what is the purpose of this? Isn't a slightly imperfect sine
> > > > > > > impossible to distinguish aurally? And can't you filter out any
> > > > > > > imperfections to near-silence with an LPF?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Nov 28, 2008, at 10:02 AM, laryn91 wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > My ZO starts to distort at lower freqs (looks like a square
> with
> > > > > > > > rounded corners). So it's a
> > > > > > > > sine for only part of its range.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I'm not so much interested about whose *distorted* sine wave
> > > > > sounds
> > > > > > > > best, but who's sine
> > > > > > > > output actually has no audible harmonic distortion (i.e
> > > > > fundamental
> > > > > > > > only).
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > --- In
> Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com <Doepfer_a100%40yahoogroups.com>
> <Doepfer_a100%40yahoogroups.com>,
>
> > > Bakis Sirros
> > > > > > > > <synth_freak_2000@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > or maybe Cyndustries Zeroscillator...i think that should
> > > > > also have
> > > > > > > > a very good sinewave.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > that said, i also really like a lot the sine of the A111's
> > > > > (i use
> > > > > > > > them all the time!) and the
> > > > > > > > sine of the AFG (regarding Euro).
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Bakis Sirros - Parallel Worlds / Interconnected / Memory
> Geist
> > > > > > > > > [Doepfer_a100] group owner
> > > > > > > > > www. parallel - worlds - music. com
> > > > > > > > > www. myspace. com/ parallelworldsmusic
> > > > > > > > > www. myspace. com/ interconnectedmusic
> > > > > > > > > www. myspace. com/ memorygeist
> > > > > > > > > www. DiN. org. uk
> > > > > > > > > www. musicamaximamagnetica. com
> > > > > > > > > www. shimarecords. co. uk
> > > > > > > > > www. rubberrecords. gr
> > > > > > > > > Athens - Greece
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > --- On Fri, 11/28/08, laryn91 <caymus91@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > From: laryn91 <caymus91@>
> > > > > > > > > Subject: [Doepfer_a100] Re: starting a modular - Z3000
> > > > > waveform
> > > > > > > > quality?
> > > > > > > > > To:
> Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com <Doepfer_a100%40yahoogroups.com>
> <Doepfer_a100%40yahoogroups.com>
>
> > > > > > > > > Date: Friday, November 28, 2008, 7:17 PM
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I originally asked if anybody sold a VCO with undistorted
> sine
> > > > > > > > outputs. In summary here
> > > > > > > > > are the replies I got:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 1 - Manufactures claim they can spec any wave with rounded
> > > > > peaks
> > > > > > > > as "Sine". Even if
> > > > > > > > you
> > > > > > > > > can clearly hear even harmonic distortion - any roundish
> > > > > looking
> > > > > > > > shape is a close
> > > > > > > > enough
> > > > > > > > > to be called a Sine.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 2 - Analog vs. Digital religion states that analog must
> always
> > > > > > > > remain imprecise because
> > > > > > > > > that is its character. We don't want a clean analog wave
> > > > > with no
> > > > > > > > added harmonics in our
> > > > > > > > > system because that would make it digital.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 3 - Finally the topic police posted their overall
> > > > > disapproval of
> > > > > > > > this discussion. Even
> > > > > > > > > banning members was suggested!
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > So I learned if you want a real sine wave (as defined by
> > > > > Fourier),
> > > > > > > > get Plan-B Model 15...
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > --- In Doepfer_a100@ yahoogroups. com, york luethje <ybl@>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Why ban people? I found the debate lively at first,
> > > > > although it
> > > > > > > > later turned somewhat
> > > > > > > > > obnoxious. Dieter Doepfer has given an excellent reply and
> I
> > > > > think
> > > > > > > > matters should rest
> > > > > > > > > there.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > York
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __
> > > > > > > > > > From: kovski774 <kovski@>
> > > > > > > > > > To: Doepfer_a100@ yahoogroups. com
> > > > > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 6:30:55 AM
> > > > > > > > > > Subject: [Doepfer_a100] Re: starting a modular - Z3000
> > > > > waveform
> > > > > > > > quality?
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > or perhaps we can just ban argitoth? the guy's a
> trainwreck,
> > > > > > > > spoils
> > > > > > > > > > every message board he signs up to with inane opinions
> > > > > presented
> > > > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > > > fact and a TOTAL lack of self awareness.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > --- In Doepfer_a100@ yahoogroups. com, Bakis Sirros
> > > > > > > > > > <synth_freak_ 2000@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > yes, good idea. i can then NOT join that group...
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Bakis Sirros - Parallel Worlds / Interconnected /
> Memory
> > > > > Geist
> > > > > > > > > > > [Doepfer_a100] group owner
> > > > > > > > > > > www. parallel - worlds - music. com
> > > > > > > > > > > www. myspace. com/ parallelworldsmusic
> > > > > > > > > > > www. myspace. com/ interconnectedmusic
> > > > > > > > > > > www. myspace. com/ memorygeist
> > > > > > > > > > > www. DiN. org. uk
> > > > > > > > > > > www. musicamaximamagneti ca. com
> > > > > > > > > > > www. shimarecords. co. uk
> > > > > > > > > > > www. rubberrecords. gr
> > > > > > > > > > > Athens - Greece
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > --- On Tue, 11/25/08, Frequency Divider <freq.div@ .>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > From: Frequency Divider <freq.div@ .>
> > > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Doepfer_a100] Re: starting a modular -
> Z3000
> > > > > > > > waveform
> > > > > > > > > > quality?
> > > > > > > > > > > To: Doepfer_a100@ yahoogroups. com
> > > > > > > > > > > Date: Tuesday, November 25, 2008, 9:31 PM
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > i would like to suggest the creation of a seperate list
> > > > > or yahoo
> > > > > > > > > > group
> > > > > > > > > > > for any future sine wave purity discussions. you could
> > > > > even join
> > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > alternate tunings list for obsessive talk about tuning
> > > > > the vco
> > > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > > cents
> > > > > > > > > > > and fractions of cents
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Argitoth schreef:
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > btw, here's the Tip Top Audio VCO waveform test:
> > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.muffwigg ler.com/forum/ viewtopic.
> php?t=2158
> > > > > > > > > > > > <http://www.muffwigg ler.com/forum/ viewtopic.
> > > php?t=2158
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Is it just me or does Analogue Systems VCO produce
> > > > > better
> > > > > > > > > > traingles and
> > > > > > > > > > > > sines?
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks James,
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Laryn91, I just recorded my synth using the filter as
> a
> > > > > > > > > > waveshaper.
> > > > > > > > > > > > Good tracking is not needed, you just have to patch a
> > > > > 1v/oct
> > > > > > > > > > signal
> > > > > > > > > > > > into the filter's VC, but that VC needs an
> attenuator.
> > > > > You
> > > > > > > > don't
> > > > > > > > > > want
> > > > > > > > > > > > to give it full VC. Here's the recording:
> > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.elanhick ler.com/misc/ filter-waveshapi
> ng-
> > > > > test.wav
> > > > > > > > > > > > <http://www.elanhick ler.com/misc/ filter-waveshapi
> > > > > > ng-test.wav
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > 1. Raw sound without filtering.
> > > > > > > > > > > > 2. With filtering (notice how you can't hear low
> > > > > notes, that's
> > > > > > > > > > how it
> > > > > > > > > > > > should be with sine waves, however the problem is
> that
> > > > > low
> > > > > > > > notes
> > > > > > > > > > also
> > > > > > > > > > > > have small peaks)
> > > > > > > > > > > > 3. With filtering used as a modulator (the lesser
> > > > > peaks means
> > > > > > > > > > it's not
> > > > > > > > > > > > good as a modulator, not enough volume anymore)
> > > > > > > > > > > > 4. Without filtering used as a pitch modulator (this
> > > > > is how
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > modulation should sound)
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Hmm... Its anyone's guess if a filter is really worth
> > > > > using
> > > > > > > > as a
> > > > > > > > > > waveshaper.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- ---------
> > > > > > > > --------- -
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > > > > > > > > > > > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg. com
> > > > > > > > > > > > Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.10/1810 -
> > > > > Release
> > > > > > > > Date:
> > > > > > > > > > 11/24/2008 2:36 PM
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
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> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
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> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
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> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
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> > > > > > >
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> > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
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> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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> >
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>  
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

You are really trolling eh?
Maybe you should open up and try to see what people are trying to tell you.
As you read on the bottom I have nothing against additive synthesis as
a creative
tool.
But scientificly additive synthesis does not make sense in the analog
domain.
Unless you have  total control over the phase domain.
It is not for nothing that the history of hands on additive synthesis starts
at the synclavier.
But hey, history is boring when you are 19 eh?






On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 7:20 PM, achtung_999 <heinrich.himmelwasser@gmail.com
> wrote:

> Go on be naive.
>
>
> On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 7:19 PM, laryn91 <caymus91@mac.com> wrote:
>
>>   You must fall into this group:
>>
>>
>> " I'm guessing you're either unfamiliar with or never
>> > designed sounds
>> > using Additive Synthesis. "
>>
>> I and many others successfully use Additive techniques on our analog
>> synthesizers every
>> day. Just because YOU can't or don't know how, you shouldn't make pompus
>> blanket
>> statements like yours below.
>>
>> It only exposes your lack of depth in analog synthesis techniques ;-)
>>
>> --- In Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com <Doepfer_a100%40yahoogroups.com>,
>> achtung_999 <heinrich.himmelwasser@...>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > "For example, if you wanted to create a sound similar in character and
>> > dynamics
>> > of a flute, you could probably make a pretty good one controlling 3 or 4
>> > sine wave
>> > oscillators as the excitation. There are many sources for info on the
>> web
>> > about Additive
>> > Synthesis if you're interested."
>> >
>> >
>> > I think it is rather extremely naïve that you think you can model
>> natural
>> > sounds with additive synthesis.History has proven that many people
>> thought
>> > it was possible but failed in the end.
>> > Why?
>> > They could not get the phases of the seperate sine building blocks
>> correctly
>> > lined up with analog oscillators.
>> > I guess you could do with reading some of monsieur Fourier's theory.
>> >
>> > It wasn't until computers got significantly powerful enough that
>> Fourier's
>> > theories could be implemented fully.
>> > And then still....
>> >
>> > I have nothing against additive synthesis and i understand your need for
>> > true sine function oscillators for this.
>> > But please don't act like additive synthesis is going to give you a good
>> > imitation of an 'existing real life' sound..
>> >
>> >
>> > Greetings,
>> >
>> > Ernst
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 5:49 PM, laryn91 <caymus91@...> wrote:
>> >
>> > > By your question, I'm guessing you're either unfamiliar with or never
>> > > designed sounds
>> > > using Additive Synthesis. But quality sines are a necessary component
>> for
>> > > these cool class
>> > > of sounds. For example, if you wanted to create a sound similar in
>> > > character and dynamics
>> > > of a flute, you could probably make a pretty good one controlling 3 or
>> 4
>> > > sine wave
>> > > oscillators as the excitation. There are many sources for info on the
>> web
>> > > about Additive
>> > > Synthesis if you're interested. You can't make the same type of
>> dynamic
>> > > sounds with only
>> > > subtractive synthesis.
>> > >
>> > > I also find the sine very useful as a natural sounding modulation
>> source.
>> > > The A-111
>> > > rounded peak triangle wave lacks that natural characteristic. And if
>> you
>> > > want more fine
>> > > and subtle control for FM, nothing beats a sine!
>> > >
>> > > A sine wave is useful as building block only if it contains the
>> fundamental
>> > > and no
>> > > overtones. An audibly distorted sine wave is not "character", but
>> > > imprecision and
>> > > sloppiness. If the A-111 outputs a triangle-with-rounded-peaks, it
>> should
>> > > not mislead
>> > > customers and spec it as a "Sine". Call it Tri2 or Soft Tri instead. A
>> Sine
>> > > means something
>> > > very specific:
>> > >
>> > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sine_wave
>> > >
>> > > If the A-111 produced ramped or rounded edge waves at its "Square"
>> wave out
>> > > jack -
>> > > would you think that's "character " or just a faulty or bad design?
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > --- In Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com <Doepfer_a100%40yahoogroups.com><Doepfer_a100%
>> 40yahoogroups.com>,
>>
>> > > Monroe Eskew <monroe.eskew@> wrote:
>> > > >
>> > > > I'm just curious what relevance to music is. It doesn't make sense
>> to
>> > > > complain when a flute doesn't produce a pure sine. Each instrument
>> > > > has its own character and musical desirability. Lots of the best
>> > > > tones from analog synths are far from pure sine. I can see why
>> > > > someone would want that pure sine sound in a particular musical
>> > > > application, but can't you approximate it well enough for musical
>> > > > purposes with standard equipment like A111 or RS95, or as you
>> mention
>> > > > M15 or ZO? If you run it through a strong LPF with no resonance then
>> > > > you further shape the wave towards sine perfection.
>> > > >
>> > > > I'm just wondering if you are interested in musical applications or
>> > > > maybe scientific applications instead? Or are you just a
>> > > > perfectionist? (It's OK if you are.)
>> > > >
>> > > > Monroe
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > On Nov 29, 2008, at 8:20 AM, laryn91 wrote:
>> > > >
>> > > > > I don't get it either. All I asked is if anyone knows of any euro
>> > > > > VCO that can produce a sine
>> > > > > wave without audible harmonic distortion (Plan-B and ZO so far).
>> To
>> > > > > me this a very useful
>> > > > > feature.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > But my request seems to get hijacked by self-righteous posters who
>> > > > > expect everyone to
>> > > > > either adopt their personal analog synthesis religion or justify
>> > > > > their inability to hear
>> > > > > harmonic distortion.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > --- In Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com<Doepfer_a100%40yahoogroups.com><Doepfer_a100%
>> 40yahoogroups.com>,
>> > > "madrayken" <dene.carter@>
>> > > > > wrote:
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > Only just joined this curiously tense thread.
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > Is there something so fundamentally (unintended joke) annoying
>> about
>> > > > > > wanting sine waves when spending well over a thousand pounds on
>> a
>> > > > > > mono-synth?
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > *I* want sine waves as pure as possible because I like using
>> ring
>> > > > > mod
>> > > > > > which tends to sound rather nasty and noisy with anything other
>> than
>> > > > > > pure sines. I know because I've tried using things other than
>> sine
>> > > > > > waves, not because someone told me so.
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > I heard the A110 wasn't a pure sine.
>> > > > > > I bought an A111 and a dual cwejman instead.
>> > > > > > They produce nice non-noisy sines and the ring mod produced
>> sounds
>> > > > > > good to my ears.
>> > > > > > I am now happy.
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > I'm happy to hear what solutions other people have found to the
>> > > > > > pure-sine dilemma. I'm also happy to hear that other people
>> don't
>> > > > > care
>> > > > > > about pure sines - that's interesting in itself, and I love
>> hearing
>> > > > > > the work-arounds.
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > Can't we all move on or play nice?
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > --- In Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com<Doepfer_a100%40yahoogroups.com>
>> <Doepfer_a100%40yahoogroups.com>,
>> > > Monroe Eskew <monroe.eskew@>
>> > > > > > wrote:
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > So what is the purpose of this? Isn't a slightly imperfect
>> sine
>> > > > > > > impossible to distinguish aurally? And can't you filter out
>> any
>> > > > > > > imperfections to near-silence with an LPF?
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > On Nov 28, 2008, at 10:02 AM, laryn91 wrote:
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > My ZO starts to distort at lower freqs (looks like a square
>> with
>> > > > > > > > rounded corners). So it's a
>> > > > > > > > sine for only part of its range.
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > I'm not so much interested about whose *distorted* sine wave
>> > > > > sounds
>> > > > > > > > best, but who's sine
>> > > > > > > > output actually has no audible harmonic distortion (i.e
>> > > > > fundamental
>> > > > > > > > only).
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > --- In
>> Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com <Doepfer_a100%40yahoogroups.com>
>> <Doepfer_a100%40yahoogroups.com>,
>>
>> > > Bakis Sirros
>> > > > > > > > <synth_freak_2000@> wrote:
>> > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > or maybe Cyndustries Zeroscillator...i think that should
>> > > > > also have
>> > > > > > > > a very good sinewave.
>> > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > that said, i also really like a lot the sine of the A111's
>> > > > > (i use
>> > > > > > > > them all the time!) and the
>> > > > > > > > sine of the AFG (regarding Euro).
>> > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > Bakis Sirros - Parallel Worlds / Interconnected / Memory
>> Geist
>> > > > > > > > > [Doepfer_a100] group owner
>> > > > > > > > > www. parallel - worlds - music. com
>> > > > > > > > > www. myspace. com/ parallelworldsmusic
>> > > > > > > > > www. myspace. com/ interconnectedmusic
>> > > > > > > > > www. myspace. com/ memorygeist
>> > > > > > > > > www. DiN. org. uk
>> > > > > > > > > www. musicamaximamagnetica. com
>> > > > > > > > > www. shimarecords. co. uk
>> > > > > > > > > www. rubberrecords. gr
>> > > > > > > > > Athens - Greece
>> > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > --- On Fri, 11/28/08, laryn91 <caymus91@> wrote:
>> > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > From: laryn91 <caymus91@>
>> > > > > > > > > Subject: [Doepfer_a100] Re: starting a modular - Z3000
>> > > > > waveform
>> > > > > > > > quality?
>> > > > > > > > > To:
>> Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com <Doepfer_a100%40yahoogroups.com>
>> <Doepfer_a100%40yahoogroups.com>
>>
>> > > > > > > > > Date: Friday, November 28, 2008, 7:17 PM
>> > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > I originally asked if anybody sold a VCO with undistorted
>> sine
>> > > > > > > > outputs. In summary here
>> > > > > > > > > are the replies I got:
>> > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > 1 - Manufactures claim they can spec any wave with rounded
>> > > > > peaks
>> > > > > > > > as "Sine". Even if
>> > > > > > > > you
>> > > > > > > > > can clearly hear even harmonic distortion - any roundish
>> > > > > looking
>> > > > > > > > shape is a close
>> > > > > > > > enough
>> > > > > > > > > to be called a Sine.
>> > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > 2 - Analog vs. Digital religion states that analog must
>> always
>> > > > > > > > remain imprecise because
>> > > > > > > > > that is its character. We don't want a clean analog wave
>> > > > > with no
>> > > > > > > > added harmonics in our
>> > > > > > > > > system because that would make it digital.
>> > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > 3 - Finally the topic police posted their overall
>> > > > > disapproval of
>> > > > > > > > this discussion. Even
>> > > > > > > > > banning members was suggested!
>> > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > So I learned if you want a real sine wave (as defined by
>> > > > > Fourier),
>> > > > > > > > get Plan-B Model 15...
>> > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > --- In Doepfer_a100@ yahoogroups. com, york luethje <ybl@
>> >
>> > > > > wrote:
>> > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > Why ban people? I found the debate lively at first,
>> > > > > although it
>> > > > > > > > later turned somewhat
>> > > > > > > > > obnoxious. Dieter Doepfer has given an excellent reply and
>> I
>> > > > > think
>> > > > > > > > matters should rest
>> > > > > > > > > there.
>> > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > York
>> > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __
>> > > > > > > > > > From: kovski774 <kovski@>
>> > > > > > > > > > To: Doepfer_a100@ yahoogroups. com
>> > > > > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 6:30:55 AM
>> > > > > > > > > > Subject: [Doepfer_a100] Re: starting a modular - Z3000
>> > > > > waveform
>> > > > > > > > quality?
>> > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > or perhaps we can just ban argitoth? the guy's a
>> trainwreck,
>> > > > > > > > spoils
>> > > > > > > > > > every message board he signs up to with inane opinions
>> > > > > presented
>> > > > > > > > as
>> > > > > > > > > > fact and a TOTAL lack of self awareness.
>> > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > --- In Doepfer_a100@ yahoogroups. com, Bakis Sirros
>> > > > > > > > > > <synth_freak_ 2000@> wrote:
>> > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > yes, good idea. i can then NOT join that group...
>> > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > Bakis Sirros - Parallel Worlds / Interconnected /
>> Memory
>> > > > > Geist
>> > > > > > > > > > > [Doepfer_a100] group owner
>> > > > > > > > > > > www. parallel - worlds - music. com
>> > > > > > > > > > > www. myspace. com/ parallelworldsmusic
>> > > > > > > > > > > www. myspace. com/ interconnectedmusic
>> > > > > > > > > > > www. myspace. com/ memorygeist
>> > > > > > > > > > > www. DiN. org. uk
>> > > > > > > > > > > www. musicamaximamagneti ca. com
>> > > > > > > > > > > www. shimarecords. co. uk
>> > > > > > > > > > > www. rubberrecords. gr
>> > > > > > > > > > > Athens - Greece
>> > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > --- On Tue, 11/25/08, Frequency Divider <freq.div@ .>
>> > > > > wrote:
>> > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > From: Frequency Divider <freq.div@ .>
>> > > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Doepfer_a100] Re: starting a modular -
>> Z3000
>> > > > > > > > waveform
>> > > > > > > > > > quality?
>> > > > > > > > > > > To: Doepfer_a100@ yahoogroups. com
>> > > > > > > > > > > Date: Tuesday, November 25, 2008, 9:31 PM
>> > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > i would like to suggest the creation of a seperate
>> list
>> > > > > or yahoo
>> > > > > > > > > > group
>> > > > > > > > > > > for any future sine wave purity discussions. you could
>> > > > > even join
>> > > > > > > > > > the
>> > > > > > > > > > > alternate tunings list for obsessive talk about tuning
>> > > > > the vco
>> > > > > > > > in
>> > > > > > > > > > cents
>> > > > > > > > > > > and fractions of cents
>> > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > Argitoth schreef:
>> > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > > btw, here's the Tip Top Audio VCO waveform test:
>> > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.muffwigg ler.com/forum/ viewtopic.
>> php?t=2158
>> > > > > > > > > > > > <http://www.muffwigg ler.com/forum/ viewtopic.
>> > > php?t=2158
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > > Is it just me or does Analogue Systems VCO produce
>> > > > > better
>> > > > > > > > > > traingles and
>> > > > > > > > > > > > sines?
>> > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks James,
>> > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > > Laryn91, I just recorded my synth using the filter
>> as a
>> > > > > > > > > > waveshaper.
>> > > > > > > > > > > > Good tracking is not needed, you just have to patch
>> a
>> > > > > 1v/oct
>> > > > > > > > > > signal
>> > > > > > > > > > > > into the filter's VC, but that VC needs an
>> attenuator.
>> > > > > You
>> > > > > > > > don't
>> > > > > > > > > > want
>> > > > > > > > > > > > to give it full VC. Here's the recording:
>> > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.elanhick ler.com/misc/ filter-waveshapi
>> ng-
>> > > > > test.wav
>> > > > > > > > > > > > <http://www.elanhick ler.com/misc/ filter-waveshapi
>> > > > > > ng-test.wav
>> > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > > 1. Raw sound without filtering.
>> > > > > > > > > > > > 2. With filtering (notice how you can't hear low
>> > > > > notes, that's
>> > > > > > > > > > how it
>> > > > > > > > > > > > should be with sine waves, however the problem is
>> that
>> > > > > low
>> > > > > > > > notes
>> > > > > > > > > > also
>> > > > > > > > > > > > have small peaks)
>> > > > > > > > > > > > 3. With filtering used as a modulator (the lesser
>> > > > > peaks means
>> > > > > > > > > > it's not
>> > > > > > > > > > > > good as a modulator, not enough volume anymore)
>> > > > > > > > > > > > 4. Without filtering used as a pitch modulator (this
>> > > > > is how
>> > > > > > > > the
>> > > > > > > > > > > > modulation should sound)
>> > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > > Hmm... Its anyone's guess if a filter is really
>> worth
>> > > > > using
>> > > > > > > > as a
>> > > > > > > > > > waveshaper.
>> > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- ---------
>> > > > > > > > --------- -
>> > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message.
>> > > > > > > > > > > > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg. com
>> > > > > > > > > > > > Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.10/1810 -
>> > > > > Release
>> > > > > > > > Date:
>> > > > > > > > > > 11/24/2008 2:36 PM
>> > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>> > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>> > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>> > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>> > > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> >
>> >
>> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>> >
>>
>>  
>>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Dec 1, 2008, at 10:03 AM, achtung_999 wrote:

> I think it is rather extremely naïve that you think you can model  
> natural
> sounds with additive synthesis.History has proven that many people  
> thought
> it was possible but failed in the end.


There have a number of pretty good additive synthesis and resynthesis  
projects. Several systems, albeit digital, allowed phases to roll  
freely. There have price barriers in commercializing these, though.

There are certainly challenges in implementing an additive system with  
analog electronics, but keeping phase relationships might not be as  
important as you think, though.

- C

Chris Muir
cbm@well.com	
http://www.xfade.com

I'm actually agreeing with you. I was referring to the common argument since a pure sine 
is not possible, so the crappy 10%-20% THD sines from Deopfer, Tip Top, ASys etc. 
should be good enough for us. 

Maybe try to do better since it's been known for 40 years that it's easy and simple to get 
cleaner sines with less than 1% THD.



--- In Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com, Argitoth <argitoth@...> wrote:

>
> ... I don't understand why people can't accept the fact some of us
> desire perfection.
> 
> On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 12:22 PM, achtung_999
> <heinrich.himmelwasser@...> wrote:
> > I don't intend to be a 'confrontational' poster. Have never been in this
> > board but this thread has too much people talking past eachother.I'm off
> > this thread, have fun splitting hairs.
> >
> > On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 8:14 PM, laryn91 <caymus91@...> wrote:
> >
> >> I agree. My professional expertise is in speech research and speech
> >> synthesis and studies
> >> have shown the human ear cannot distinguish static phase relationships in
> >> a
> >> monophonic
> >> signal.
> >>
> >> BTW, looking at many of the posts for this thread (not yours), I notice
> >> arguments are often
> >> extreme black and white from the usual confrontational posters. If you
> >> can't do Additive
> >> synthesis 100% on analog then it's useless. If you can't make a pure 0%
> >> THD
> >> sine, then
> >> they are useless. Useful sines can only be generated by sine cores, etc...
> >>
> >> I find a lot of utility with my 1% THD triangle converted sines in
> >> Additive
> >> and FM
> >> applications :-)
> >>
> >>
> >> --- In Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com <Doepfer_a100%40yahoogroups.com>,
> >> Chris Muir <cbm@> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > On Dec 1, 2008, at 10:03 AM, achtung_999 wrote:
> >> >
> >> > > I think it is rather extremely naïve that you think you can model
> >> > > natural
> >> > > sounds with additive synthesis.History has proven that many people
> >> > > thought
> >> > > it was possible but failed in the end.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > There have a number of pretty good additive synthesis and resynthesis
> >> > projects. Several systems, albeit digital, allowed phases to roll
> >> > freely. There have price barriers in commercializing these, though.
> >> >
> >> > There are certainly challenges in implementing an additive system with
> >> > analog electronics, but keeping phase relationships might not be as
> >> > important as you think, though.
> >> >
> >> > - C
> >> >
> >> > Chris Muir
> >> > cbm@
> >> > http://www.xfade.com
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> www.elanhickler.com
>

Thanks for that Chris.I know of some very good systems myself too.
Try SPEAR: http://www.klingbeil.com/spear/
But the aim of my message was to find out why these people are on one hand
hammering on a true scientificly perfect sine wave generator and then on the
other hand ignore the scientific part of additive synthesis.




On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 7:30 PM, Chris Muir <cbm@well.com> wrote:

>
> On Dec 1, 2008, at 10:03 AM, achtung_999 wrote:
>
> > I think it is rather extremely naïve that you think you can model
> > natural
> > sounds with additive synthesis.History has proven that many people
> > thought
> > it was possible but failed in the end.
>
> There have a number of pretty good additive synthesis and resynthesis
> projects. Several systems, albeit digital, allowed phases to roll
> freely. There have price barriers in commercializing these, though.
>
> There are certainly challenges in implementing an additive system with
> analog electronics, but keeping phase relationships might not be as
> important as you think, though.
>
> - C
>
> Chris Muir
> cbm@well.com <cbm%40well.com>
> http://www.xfade.com
>
>  
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Additive synthesis? Why, I'd NEVER heard of that! What a cool concept. You mean one can construct sounds by adding, rather than substracting? Fascinating. A whole new world just opened up for me. Thank you! Thank you!




________________________________

From: laryn91 <caymus91@mac.com>
To: Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, December 1, 2008 11:49:15 AM
Subject: [Doepfer_a100] Re: starting a modular - Z3000 waveform quality?


By your question, I'm guessing you're either unfamiliar with or never designed sounds 
using Additive Synthesis. But quality sines are a necessary component for these cool class 
of sounds. For example, if you wanted to create a sound similar in character and dynamics 
of a flute, you could probably make a pretty good one controlling 3 or 4 sine wave 
oscillators as the excitation. There are many sources for info on the web about Additive 
Synthesis if you're interested. You can't make the same type of dynamic sounds with only 
subtractive synthesis.

I also find the sine very useful as a natural sounding modulation source. The A-111 
rounded peak triangle wave lacks that natural characteristic. And if you want more fine 
and subtle control for FM, nothing beats a sine!

A sine wave is useful as building block only if it contains the fundamental and no 
overtones. An audibly distorted sine wave is not "character", but imprecision and 
sloppiness. If the A-111 outputs a triangle-with- rounded-peaks, it should not mislead 
customers and spec it as a "Sine". Call it Tri2 or Soft Tri instead. A Sine means something 
very specific: 

http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Sine_wave

If the A-111 produced ramped or rounded edge waves at its "Square" wave out jack - 
would you think that's "character " or just a faulty or bad design?

--- In Doepfer_a100@ yahoogroups. com, Monroe Eskew <monroe.eskew@ ...> wrote:
>
> I'm just curious what relevance to music is.  It doesn't make sense to 
> complain when a flute doesn't produce a pure sine.  Each instrument 
> has its own character and musical desirability.  Lots of the best 
> tones from analog synths are far from pure sine.  I can see why 
> someone would want that pure sine sound in a particular musical 
> application, but can't you approximate it well enough for musical 
> purposes with standard equipment like A111 or RS95, or as you mention 
> M15 or ZO?  If you run it through a strong LPF with no resonance then 
> you further shape the wave towards sine perfection.
> 
> I'm just wondering if you are interested in musical applications or 
> maybe scientific applications instead?  Or are you just a 
> perfectionist?  (It's OK if you are.)
> 
> Monroe
> 
> 
> On Nov 29, 2008, at 8:20 AM, laryn91 wrote:
> 
> > I don't get it either. All I asked is if anyone knows of any euro 
> > VCO that can produce a sine
> > wave without audible harmonic distortion (Plan-B and ZO so far). To 
> > me this a very useful
> > feature.
> >
> > But my request seems to get hijacked by self-righteous posters who 
> > expect everyone to
> > either adopt their personal analog synthesis religion or justify 
> > their inability to hear
> > harmonic distortion.
> >
> > --- In Doepfer_a100@ yahoogroups. com, "madrayken" <dene.carter@ > 
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Only just joined this curiously tense thread.
> > >
> > > Is there something so fundamentally (unintended joke) annoying about
> > > wanting sine waves when spending well over a thousand pounds on a
> > > mono-synth?
> > >
> > > *I* want sine waves as pure as possible because I like using ring 
> > mod
> > > which tends to sound rather nasty and noisy with anything other than
> > > pure sines. I know because I've tried using things other than sine
> > > waves, not because someone told me so.
> > >
> > > I heard the A110 wasn't a pure sine.
> > > I bought an A111 and a dual cwejman instead.
> > > They produce nice non-noisy sines and the ring mod produced sounds
> > > good to my ears.
> > > I am now happy.
> > >
> > > I'm happy to hear what solutions other people have found to the
> > > pure-sine dilemma. I'm also happy to hear that other people don't 
> > care
> > > about pure sines - that's interesting in itself, and I love hearing
> > > the work-arounds.
> > >
> > > Can't we all move on or play nice?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In Doepfer_a100@ yahoogroups. com, Monroe Eskew <monroe.eskew@ >
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > So what is the purpose of this? Isn't a slightly imperfect sine
> > > > impossible to distinguish aurally? And can't you filter out any
> > > > imperfections to near-silence with an LPF?
> > > >
> > > > On Nov 28, 2008, at 10:02 AM, laryn91 wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > My ZO starts to distort at lower freqs (looks like a square with
> > > > > rounded corners). So it's a
> > > > > sine for only part of its range.
> > > > >
> > > > > I'm not so much interested about whose *distorted* sine wave 
> > sounds
> > > > > best, but who's sine
> > > > > output actually has no audible harmonic distortion (i.e 
> > fundamental
> > > > > only).
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In Doepfer_a100@ yahoogroups. com, Bakis Sirros
> > > > > <synth_freak_ 2000@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > or maybe Cyndustries Zeroscillator. ..i think that should 
> > also have
> > > > > a very good sinewave.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > that said, i also really like a lot the sine of the A111's 
> > (i use
> > > > > them all the time!) and the
> > > > > sine of the AFG (regarding Euro).
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Bakis Sirros - Parallel Worlds / Interconnected / Memory Geist
> > > > > > [Doepfer_a100] group owner
> > > > > > www. parallel - worlds - music. com
> > > > > > www. myspace. com/ parallelworldsmusic
> > > > > > www. myspace. com/ interconnectedmusic
> > > > > > www. myspace. com/ memorygeist
> > > > > > www. DiN. org. uk
> > > > > > www. musicamaximamagneti ca. com
> > > > > > www. shimarecords. co. uk
> > > > > > www. rubberrecords. gr
> > > > > > Athens - Greece
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- On Fri, 11/28/08, laryn91 <caymus91@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > From: laryn91 <caymus91@>
> > > > > > Subject: [Doepfer_a100] Re: starting a modular - Z3000 
> > waveform
> > > > > quality?
> > > > > > To: Doepfer_a100@ yahoogroups. com
> > > > > > Date: Friday, November 28, 2008, 7:17 PM
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I originally asked if anybody sold a VCO with undistorted sine
> > > > > outputs. In summary here
> > > > > > are the replies I got:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 1 - Manufactures claim they can spec any wave with rounded 
> > peaks
> > > > > as "Sine". Even if
> > > > > you
> > > > > > can clearly hear even harmonic distortion - any roundish 
> > looking
> > > > > shape is a close
> > > > > enough
> > > > > > to be called a Sine.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 2 - Analog vs. Digital religion states that analog must always
> > > > > remain imprecise because
> > > > > > that is its character. We don't want a clean analog wave 
> > with no
> > > > > added harmonics in our
> > > > > > system because that would make it digital.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 3 - Finally the topic police posted their overall 
> > disapproval of
> > > > > this discussion. Even
> > > > > > banning members was suggested!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > So I learned if you want a real sine wave (as defined by 
> > Fourier),
> > > > > get Plan-B Model 15...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In Doepfer_a100@ yahoogroups. com, york luethje <ybl@> 
> > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Why ban people? I found the debate lively at first, 
> > although it
> > > > > later turned somewhat
> > > > > > obnoxious. Dieter Doepfer has given an excellent reply and I 
> > think
> > > > > matters should rest
> > > > > > there.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > York
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __
> > > > > > > From: kovski774 <kovski@>
> > > > > > > To: Doepfer_a100@ yahoogroups. com
> > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 6:30:55 AM
> > > > > > > Subject: [Doepfer_a100] Re: starting a modular - Z3000 
> > waveform
> > > > > quality?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > or perhaps we can just ban argitoth? the guy's a trainwreck,
> > > > > spoils
> > > > > > > every message board he signs up to with inane opinions 
> > presented
> > > > > as
> > > > > > > fact and a TOTAL lack of self awareness.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --- In Doepfer_a100@ yahoogroups. com, Bakis Sirros
> > > > > > > <synth_freak_ 2000@> wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > yes, good idea. i can then NOT join that group...
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Bakis Sirros - Parallel Worlds / Interconnected / Memory 
> > Geist
> > > > > > > > [Doepfer_a100] group owner
> > > > > > > > www. parallel - worlds - music. com
> > > > > > > > www. myspace. com/ parallelworldsmusic
> > > > > > > > www. myspace. com/ interconnectedmusic
> > > > > > > > www. myspace. com/ memorygeist
> > > > > > > > www. DiN. org. uk
> > > > > > > > www. musicamaximamagneti ca. com
> > > > > > > > www. shimarecords. co. uk
> > > > > > > > www. rubberrecords. gr
> > > > > > > > Athens - Greece
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > --- On Tue, 11/25/08, Frequency Divider <freq.div@ .> 
> > wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > From: Frequency Divider <freq.div@ .>
> > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Doepfer_a100] Re: starting a modular - Z3000
> > > > > waveform
> > > > > > > quality?
> > > > > > > > To: Doepfer_a100@ yahoogroups. com
> > > > > > > > Date: Tuesday, November 25, 2008, 9:31 PM
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > i would like to suggest the creation of a seperate list 
> > or yahoo
> > > > > > > group
> > > > > > > > for any future sine wave purity discussions. you could 
> > even join
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > alternate tunings list for obsessive talk about tuning 
> > the vco
> > > > > in
> > > > > > > cents
> > > > > > > > and fractions of cents
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Argitoth schreef:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > btw, here's the Tip Top Audio VCO waveform test:
> > > > > > > > > http://www.muffwigg ler.com/forum/ viewtopic. php?t=2158
> > > > > > > > > <http://www.muffwigg ler.com/forum/ viewtopic. php?t=2158 
> > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Is it just me or does Analogue Systems VCO produce 
> > better
> > > > > > > traingles and
> > > > > > > > > sines?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Thanks James,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Laryn91, I just recorded my synth using the filter as a
> > > > > > > waveshaper.
> > > > > > > > > Good tracking is not needed, you just have to patch a 
> > 1v/oct
> > > > > > > signal
> > > > > > > > > into the filter's VC, but that VC needs an attenuator. 
> > You
> > > > > don't
> > > > > > > want
> > > > > > > > > to give it full VC. Here's the recording:
> > > > > > > > > http://www.elanhick ler.com/misc/ filter-waveshapi ng- 
> > test.wav
> > > > > > > > > <http://www.elanhick ler.com/misc/ filter-waveshapi
> > > ng-test.wav
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 1. Raw sound without filtering.
> > > > > > > > > 2. With filtering (notice how you can't hear low 
> > notes, that's
> > > > > > > how it
> > > > > > > > > should be with sine waves, however the problem is that 
> > low
> > > > > notes
> > > > > > > also
> > > > > > > > > have small peaks)
> > > > > > > > > 3. With filtering used as a modulator (the lesser 
> > peaks means
> > > > > > > it's not
> > > > > > > > > good as a modulator, not enough volume anymore)
> > > > > > > > > 4. Without filtering used as a pitch modulator (this 
> > is how
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > modulation should sound)
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Hmm... Its anyone's guess if a filter is really worth 
> > using
> > > > > as a
> > > > > > > waveshaper.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- ---------
> > > > > --------- -
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > > > > > > > > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg. com
> > > > > > > > > Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.10/1810 - 
> > Release
> > > > > Date:
> > > > > > > 11/24/2008 2:36 PM
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

    


      

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I don't intend to be a 'confrontational' poster. Have never been in this
board but this thread has too much people talking past eachother.I'm off
this thread, have fun splitting hairs.







On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 8:14 PM, laryn91 <caymus91@mac.com> wrote:

>   I agree. My professional expertise is in speech research and speech
> synthesis and studies
> have shown the human ear cannot distinguish static phase relationships in a
> monophonic
> signal.
>
> BTW, looking at many of the posts for this thread (not yours), I notice
> arguments are often
> extreme black and white from the usual confrontational posters. If you
> can't do Additive
> synthesis 100% on analog then it's useless. If you can't make a pure 0% THD
> sine, then
> they are useless. Useful sines can only be generated by sine cores, etc...
>
> I find a lot of utility with my 1% THD triangle converted sines in Additive
> and FM
> applications :-)
>
>
> --- In Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com <Doepfer_a100%40yahoogroups.com>,
> Chris Muir <cbm@...> wrote:
> >
> >
> > On Dec 1, 2008, at 10:03 AM, achtung_999 wrote:
> >
> > > I think it is rather extremely naïve that you think you can model
> > > natural
> > > sounds with additive synthesis.History has proven that many people
> > > thought
> > > it was possible but failed in the end.
> >
> >
> > There have a number of pretty good additive synthesis and resynthesis
> > projects. Several systems, albeit digital, allowed phases to roll
> > freely. There have price barriers in commercializing these, though.
> >
> > There are certainly challenges in implementing an additive system with
> > analog electronics, but keeping phase relationships might not be as
> > important as you think, though.
> >
> > - C
> >
> > Chris Muir
> > cbm@...
> > http://www.xfade.com
> >
>
>  
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

... I don't understand why people can't accept the fact some of us
desire perfection.

On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 12:22 PM, achtung_999
<heinrich.himmelwasser@gmail.com> wrote:
> I don't intend to be a 'confrontational' poster. Have never been in this
> board but this thread has too much people talking past eachother.I'm off
> this thread, have fun splitting hairs.
>
> On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 8:14 PM, laryn91 <caymus91@mac.com> wrote:
>
>> I agree. My professional expertise is in speech research and speech
>> synthesis and studies
>> have shown the human ear cannot distinguish static phase relationships in
>> a
>> monophonic
>> signal.
>>
>> BTW, looking at many of the posts for this thread (not yours), I notice
>> arguments are often
>> extreme black and white from the usual confrontational posters. If you
>> can't do Additive
>> synthesis 100% on analog then it's useless. If you can't make a pure 0%
>> THD
>> sine, then
>> they are useless. Useful sines can only be generated by sine cores, etc...
>>
>> I find a lot of utility with my 1% THD triangle converted sines in
>> Additive
>> and FM
>> applications :-)
>>
>>
>> --- In Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com <Doepfer_a100%40yahoogroups.com>,
>> Chris Muir <cbm@...> wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> > On Dec 1, 2008, at 10:03 AM, achtung_999 wrote:
>> >
>> > > I think it is rather extremely naïve that you think you can model
>> > > natural
>> > > sounds with additive synthesis.History has proven that many people
>> > > thought
>> > > it was possible but failed in the end.
>> >
>> >
>> > There have a number of pretty good additive synthesis and resynthesis
>> > projects. Several systems, albeit digital, allowed phases to roll
>> > freely. There have price barriers in commercializing these, though.
>> >
>> > There are certainly challenges in implementing an additive system with
>> > analog electronics, but keeping phase relationships might not be as
>> > important as you think, though.
>> >
>> > - C
>> >
>> > Chris Muir
>> > cbm@...
>> > http://www.xfade.com
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> 



-- 
www.elanhickler.com

On 12/1/08 11:23 AM, "Argitoth" <argitoth@gmail.com> wrote:

> ... I don't understand why people can't accept the fact some of us
> desire perfection.

Duke Ellington: "If it sounds good, it IS good."
perfect anything doesn't mean it sounds good, it just all will sound the
same, plenty of great pre-amps out there, but classics are always quite
colored like the the Neve. There are plenty of pre-amp with better specs
than the neve for $100, but a Neve is still a $3000+ preamp.

If you want perfect, that is software/digital the only reason analog still
exists is because it often sounds better, why, the imperfections.
Analog: tweaked until it sounds good
Digital: tweaked until it looks good

as for that sine, no one cared about that poor sine wave until about 10
years ago. Many synths don't offer it, even Blacet wasn't going to include
it on their VCO, until enough of us asked about it. So it probably is an
after-thought on many modules especially on designs older than 5 years. The
sine was really dead until microsound folks like Ryoji Ikeda started to
exploit it. Still those "perfect" sterile waves were from test equipment or
computers, as it took a mammoth $5000.00 test osc to produce such perfect
sines for them or the computer which could easily do it. But without out
even the subtle imperfections that analog will always exhibit and gives it
it's uniqueness often "warmth."

Since you're result is audio, I'd kinda think you you should base your
direction and opinions on what sounds good to you.
-p

p. hendricks, Analog sines can be perfect enough as proven by some of
the modules out now and in production, nothing more needs to be said.
All we need now is good 1v/oct for whatever modules are producing
those sines.

On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 11:53 PM, p. hendricks <ph@comcast.net> wrote:
> On 12/1/08 11:23 AM, "Argitoth" <argitoth@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> ... I don't understand why people can't accept the fact some of us
>> desire perfection.
>
> Duke Ellington: "If it sounds good, it IS good."
> perfect anything doesn't mean it sounds good, it just all will sound the
> same, plenty of great pre-amps out there, but classics are always quite
> colored like the the Neve. There are plenty of pre-amp with better specs
> than the neve for $100, but a Neve is still a $3000+ preamp.
>
> If you want perfect, that is software/digital the only reason analog still
> exists is because it often sounds better, why, the imperfections.
> Analog: tweaked until it sounds good
> Digital: tweaked until it looks good
>
> as for that sine, no one cared about that poor sine wave until about 10
> years ago. Many synths don't offer it, even Blacet wasn't going to include
> it on their VCO, until enough of us asked about it. So it probably is an
> after-thought on many modules especially on designs older than 5 years. The
> sine was really dead until microsound folks like Ryoji Ikeda started to
> exploit it. Still those "perfect" sterile waves were from test equipment or
> computers, as it took a mammoth $5000.00 test osc to produce such perfect
> sines for them or the computer which could easily do it. But without out
> even the subtle imperfections that analog will always exhibit and gives it
> it's uniqueness often "warmth."
>
> Since you're result is audio, I'd kinda think you you should base your
> direction and opinions on what sounds good to you.
> -p
>
> 



-- 
www.elanhickler.com

On 12/1/08 11:01 PM, "Argitoth" <argitoth@gmail.com> wrote:

> Analog sines can be perfect enough as proven by some of
> the modules out now and in production, nothing more needs to be said.
if it's perfect, digital is much more efficient/cheaper and more perfect.
> All we need now is good 1v/oct for whatever modules are producing
> those sines.
why's that? is someone going to hear them in a musical application? then You
probably don't want perfect as they won't have character or sound good....
if you want perfect, digital is where it's at... simple.
if a digital perfect sine sounds good to you why would you want the 100,000+
fold expense of re-creating something so mathematically simple and sterile
in with analog components?  We now have computers that can do this math,
it's perfect... but do you like how it sounds.
What are you trying to achieve?

I will not participate in the emotional discussion about sine waves but want
to mention some technical details (some of these have been already mentioned
earlier):

All standard VCO circuits I know are based on a sawtooth or triangle core.
When the sine wave is derived from one of these VCO cores you will never
obtain a perfect sine. The antiparallel diodes are the simplest solution to
derive a sine-like wave from a triangle, the FET circuit is a bit better but
even far away from beeing perfect. Each kind of waveform converter is a
compromise (except rectangle). If you want a perfect sine you need a VCO
with a sine core. And in return: if you want a perfect triangle you need a
VCO with a triangle core, if you want a perfect sawtooth ...

The A-143-9 is the only oscillator in the A-100 that uses a sine core.
Though it was not planned as a VCO but mainly VCLFO it can be (ab)used as
sine VCO. The main drawback of the A-143-9 is the missing temperature
compensation of the exponential generator. We consider to develop a sine VCO
based on the A-143-9 circuit but with a temperature compensated exponential
generator. I expect that the price would be in the Euro 100 range. We are
also working on a VCO with sine core and linear FM with thru-zero feature.
But this is another "construction site" because the linear FM and thru-zero
feature is much more complicated than adding "only" the temperature
compensation.

And we will point out in the module information and user's guide of A-110
and A-111 that the sine outputs should be called more precisely "sine-like".
But even rectangles or triangles are not perfect (each rectangle is kind of
trapezoid as each rising and falling edge has a slope that depends on the
inherent slew limiting characteristic of analog circuitry).

Best wishes
Dieter Doepfer

> Hi all,
>
> i want to build myself a little VC electro motor, you know, one of
> these little model-plane 12V motors but with VC RPM. It's not supposed
> to track V/oct cleanly, just be somewhat predictably controllable via
> a CV.
>
> I'm not much of an electronics genius, but i figured that i would use
> a non-inverting amp based on an OP-amp to buffer the CV, then use the
> output as the voltage to drive the motor (the second connector of the
> motor being connected to ground).  Obviously, the Op-amp would be
> powered by the a-100 +/-12 V, so the design should be able to output
> -12...12V to drive the motor (with the negative voltage reversing
> direction).
>
> Does that sound about right?
>
> cheers,
> denis

Denis,

I don't think that a standard opamp can do the job unless you use a motor
that requires only a few milliamperes.
The next step would be to add a power output to a standard opamp. For motor
control 2 power transistors added to the opamp output (one npn and one pnp)
should do the job. I can send you the schematics directly if you want.
But this will not generate a RPM that's reasonably proportional to the
applied voltage. Each motor has an "offset" voltage. Below this voltage the
motor will not work, i.e. you have to apply e.g. 6V before a 12V motor will
begin to run. Only in the working range (e.g. +6...+12V) you will have a
behaviour with RPM reasonably proportional to the applied voltage.

Best wishes
Dieter Doepfer

Hey Derek,

excellent advice....thanks :-)  PWM makes a lot of sense, and that  
circuit looks like i may actually be able to get that soldered *grin*

What are you dong with those tape motors?

Cheers,
d

On Dec 1, 2008, at 6:33 PM, Derek Holzer wrote:

> Ooooooorrrrrrr....... use the PWM out of one of your oscillators to
> control the MOSFET transistor directly. That would be the most simple
> solution, then you could get rid of everything to the left of R9 in  
> that
> schematic, as that is the part which makes the square wave PWM. In  
> that
> case, just use your separate 12V PSU connected via the protection  
> diodes
> to the "D" of the transistor.
>
> Still doesn't do reverse, but that's where the H Bridge would come in.
>
> best,
> d.
>
> Derek Holzer wrote:
> > I've been using this PWM circuit to run motors:
> >
> > http://solorb.com/elect/pwm/pwm1/
> >
> > Main thing is to use a transistor to do the actual PWM instead of
> > running too much current through the opamps themselves. You could
> > replace the potentiometer for the PWM with a vactrol of some sort  
> and it
> > should work fine for VC. It's something I mean to try myself. I  
> run six
> > of these circuits and six 12V cassette player motors from a 12V  
> 0.3 amp
> > wall wart, so the draw isn't that heavy at all. You don't want the  
> PWM
> > mixed in with your synthesizer grounds however, since it's super  
> noisy!
> > So yes, use another PSU, but it doesn't need to be so heavy duty.
> >
> > Unfortunately, this circuit doesn't do reverse. For that, you will  
> need
> > to investigate an IC called an H-Bridge, which can switch from  
> positive
> > to negative. Most datasheets of an H Bridge will give a simple app  
> for
> > this. You should also look at the documentation of the Arduino  
> project
> > for simple PWM motor control circuits, there should be one with an H
> > Bridge in there as well.
> >
> > best!
> > Derek
> >
> > Denis Gökdag wrote:
> >> Hi all,
> >>
> >> i want to build myself a little VC electro motor, you know, one of
> >> these little model-plane 12V motors but with VC RPM. It's not  
> supposed
> >> to track V/oct cleanly, just be somewhat predictably controllable  
> via
> >> a CV.
> >>
> >> I'm not much of an electronics genius, but i figured that i would  
> use
> >> a non-inverting amp based on an OP-amp to buffer the CV, then use  
> the
> >> output as the voltage to drive the motor (the second connector of  
> the
> >> motor being connected to ground). Obviously, the Op-amp would be
> >> powered by the a-100 +/-12 V, so the design should be able to  
> output
> >> -12...12V to drive the motor (with the negative voltage reversing
> >> direction).
> >>
> >> Does that sound about right?
> >>
> >>
> >> cheers,
> >> denis
> >>
> >>
> >> ------------------------------------
> >>
> >> Yahoo! Groups Links
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
>
> .
>
>

Hi Dieter,

thanks for the advice. The PWM-based circuit that Derek mentioned  
should help overcome that "offset" voltage in the motor, right? (as in  
such a pulse-based circuit, you always apply the full 12V  
voltage.....just not all the time).

Basically the idea is to use a CV to modulate the PW of a VCO (the  
a-111 goes from 0% PW to 100% PW IIRC), then use this VCO to drive a  
power amp as shown here http://solorb.com/elect/pwm/ 
pwm1/    .....which basically is similar to controlling RPM with the CV.

(omitting the comparator circuit, and plugging the 111 into R9).

This is gonna be fun :-)


Cheers,
denis



On Dec 2, 2008, at 10:26 AM, <yahoo@doepfer.de> <yahoo@doepfer.de>  
wrote:

> > Hi all,
> >
> > i want to build myself a little VC electro motor, you know, one of
> > these little model-plane 12V motors but with VC RPM. It's not  
> supposed
> > to track V/oct cleanly, just be somewhat predictably controllable  
> via
> > a CV.
> >
> > I'm not much of an electronics genius, but i figured that i would  
> use
> > a non-inverting amp based on an OP-amp to buffer the CV, then use  
> the
> > output as the voltage to drive the motor (the second connector of  
> the
> > motor being connected to ground). Obviously, the Op-amp would be
> > powered by the a-100 +/-12 V, so the design should be able to output
> > -12...12V to drive the motor (with the negative voltage reversing
> > direction).
> >
> > Does that sound about right?
> >
> > cheers,
> > denis
>
> Denis,
>
> I don't think that a standard opamp can do the job unless you use a  
> motor
> that requires only a few milliamperes.
> The next step would be to add a power output to a standard opamp.  
> For motor
> control 2 power transistors added to the opamp output (one npn and  
> one pnp)
> should do the job. I can send you the schematics directly if you want.
> But this will not generate a RPM that's reasonably proportional to the
> applied voltage. Each motor has an "offset" voltage. Below this  
> voltage the
> motor will not work, i.e. you have to apply e.g. 6V before a 12V  
> motor will
> begin to run. Only in the working range (e.g. +6...+12V) you will  
> have a
> behaviour with RPM reasonably proportional to the applied voltage.
>
> Best wishes
> Dieter Doepfer
>
> .
>
>

> Hi Dieter,
>
> thanks for the advice. The PWM-based circuit that Derek mentioned
> should help overcome that "offset" voltage in the motor, right? (as in
> such a pulse-based circuit, you always apply the full 12V
> voltage.....just not all the time).
>
> Basically the idea is to use a CV to modulate the PW of a VCO (the
> a-111 goes from 0% PW to 100% PW IIRC), then use this VCO to drive a
> power amp as shown here http://solorb.com/elect/pwm/
> pwm1/    .....which basically is similar to controlling RPM with the CV.
>
> (omitting the comparator circuit, and plugging the 111 into R9).
>
> This is gonna be fun :-)
>
>
> Cheers,
> denis

I'm not sure if the PWM will solve the offset problem. After all the motor
works as a "low pass" filter for the PWM. Consequently e.g. a 25% PWM
voltage with 12V level should cause the same result as 3V DC. As far as I
know the main reason for PWM was the power dissipation of the control
electronics as switching causes much less unneeded heat than linear DC
control. It's the same for switching power supplies vs. linear power
supplies (e.g. smaller heat sinks for switching supplies). But I'm not the
motor specialist and maybe I'm wrong.

Dieter

btw. we did some VC motor applications for Kraftwerk but in this
appliactions servo motors were used and the CV controls the position of the
robot elements (via Midi-CV) rather than the RPM.

I get a fairly useful range using the circuit I provided the link for. 
My next step will be to rig up some voltage control as well, maybe with 
vactrols or maybe just with CV or PWM to a transistor. But yes, the 
motor stalls at a certain point, and I would say that the response is 
much more "linear" than "exponential" ;-) For extremely detailed control 
over motors, you should look into stepper/servo motors, but in that case 
you'd be better controlling it with some kind of microcontroller like an 
Arduino.

What I use the motors for, BTW:

http://www.umatic.nl/tonewheels.html

best!
Derek

yahoo@doepfer.de wrote:
>> Hi Dieter,
>>
>> thanks for the advice. The PWM-based circuit that Derek mentioned
>> should help overcome that "offset" voltage in the motor, right? (as in
>> such a pulse-based circuit, you always apply the full 12V
>> voltage.....just not all the time).
>>
>> Basically the idea is to use a CV to modulate the PW of a VCO (the
>> a-111 goes from 0% PW to 100% PW IIRC), then use this VCO to drive a
>> power amp as shown here http://solorb.com/elect/pwm/
>> pwm1/    .....which basically is similar to controlling RPM with the CV.
>>
>> (omitting the comparator circuit, and plugging the 111 into R9).
>>
>> This is gonna be fun :-)
>>
>>
>> Cheers,
>> denis
> 
> I'm not sure if the PWM will solve the offset problem. After all the motor
> works as a "low pass" filter for the PWM. Consequently e.g. a 25% PWM
> voltage with 12V level should cause the same result as 3V DC. As far as I
> know the main reason for PWM was the power dissipation of the control
> electronics as switching causes much less unneeded heat than linear DC
> control. It's the same for switching power supplies vs. linear power
> supplies (e.g. smaller heat sinks for switching supplies). But I'm not the
> motor specialist and maybe I'm wrong.
> 
> Dieter
> 
> btw. we did some VC motor applications for Kraftwerk but in this
> appliactions servo motors were used and the CV controls the position of the
> robot elements (via Midi-CV) rather than the RPM.
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
> 

-- 
derek holzer ::: http://www.umatic.nl ::: http://blog.myspace.com/macumbista
---Oblique Strategy # 105:
"Listen to the quiet voice"

> And we will point out in the module information and user's guide of A-110
> and A-111 that the sine outputs should be called more precisely "sine-like".

Dieter,

It's probably just me, but where do you point that out for the A-111? In my A-111 manual 
you say just the opposite:
 
"Sine waves are pure waves: they just contain the
fundamental, without any harmonics (see Fig. 5).
They are thus not suitable for subtractive synthesis
(shaping sound with a filter) - as there's nothing to take
away!"

To the contrary, the A-111 sine is still suitable for subtractive synthesis. To be accurate, 
you should say "not suitable for additive synthesis" instead.

>If you want a perfect sine you need a VCO
> with a sine core.

Instead of an impossible "perfect sine", how about just a sine with no *audible* overtones 
(<1% THD) like Arp,  Moog, Aries, Polyfusion, EML,etc. used to make? That would now 
make the A-111 useful for additive synthesis and FM.

All you need to do is copy their simple but superior triangle-to-sine converter design. ;-)




--- In Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com, <yahoo@...> wrote:

>
> I will not participate in the emotional discussion about sine waves but want
> to mention some technical details (some of these have been already mentioned
> earlier):
> 
> All standard VCO circuits I know are based on a sawtooth or triangle core.
> When the sine wave is derived from one of these VCO cores you will never
> obtain a perfect sine. The antiparallel diodes are the simplest solution to
> derive a sine-like wave from a triangle, the FET circuit is a bit better but
> even far away from beeing perfect. Each kind of waveform converter is a
> compromise (except rectangle). If you want a perfect sine you need a VCO
> with a sine core. And in return: if you want a perfect triangle you need a
> VCO with a triangle core, if you want a perfect sawtooth ...
> 
> The A-143-9 is the only oscillator in the A-100 that uses a sine core.
> Though it was not planned as a VCO but mainly VCLFO it can be (ab)used as
> sine VCO. The main drawback of the A-143-9 is the missing temperature
> compensation of the exponential generator. We consider to develop a sine VCO
> based on the A-143-9 circuit but with a temperature compensated exponential
> generator. I expect that the price would be in the Euro 100 range. We are
> also working on a VCO with sine core and linear FM with thru-zero feature.
> But this is another "construction site" because the linear FM and thru-zero
> feature is much more complicated than adding "only" the temperature
> compensation.
> 
> And we will point out in the module information and user's guide of A-110
> and A-111 that the sine outputs should be called more precisely "sine-like".
> But even rectangles or triangles are not perfect (each rectangle is kind of
> trapezoid as each rising and falling edge has a slope that depends on the
> inherent slew limiting characteristic of analog circuitry).
> 
> Best wishes
> Dieter Doepfer
>

Great post Dieter, and for the record I love that my A-143-9 doesn't have
temperature compensation. It makes for very organic changes over long
periods.

On Tue, Dec 2, 2008 at 5:26 AM, <yahoo@doepfer.de> wrote:

>   I will not participate in the emotional discussion about sine waves but
> want
> to mention some technical details (some of these have been already
> mentioned
> earlier):
>
> All standard VCO circuits I know are based on a sawtooth or triangle core.
> When the sine wave is derived from one of these VCO cores you will never
> obtain a perfect sine. The antiparallel diodes are the simplest solution to
> derive a sine-like wave from a triangle, the FET circuit is a bit better
> but
> even far away from beeing perfect. Each kind of waveform converter is a
> compromise (except rectangle). If you want a perfect sine you need a VCO
> with a sine core. And in return: if you want a perfect triangle you need a
> VCO with a triangle core, if you want a perfect sawtooth ...
>
> The A-143-9 is the only oscillator in the A-100 that uses a sine core.
> Though it was not planned as a VCO but mainly VCLFO it can be (ab)used as
> sine VCO. The main drawback of the A-143-9 is the missing temperature
> compensation of the exponential generator. We consider to develop a sine
> VCO
> based on the A-143-9 circuit but with a temperature compensated exponential
> generator. I expect that the price would be in the Euro 100 range. We are
> also working on a VCO with sine core and linear FM with thru-zero feature.
> But this is another "construction site" because the linear FM and thru-zero
> feature is much more complicated than adding "only" the temperature
> compensation.
>
> And we will point out in the module information and user's guide of A-110
> and A-111 that the sine outputs should be called more precisely
> "sine-like".
> But even rectangles or triangles are not perfect (each rectangle is kind of
> trapezoid as each rising and falling edge has a slope that depends on the
> inherent slew limiting characteristic of analog circuitry).
>
> Best wishes
> Dieter Doepfer
>
>  
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> as for that sine, no one cared about that poor sine wave until about 10
> years ago. Many synths don't offer it, even Blacet wasn't going to include

The analog sine actually has a more prominent roll in EM history than that. In the 40's and 
50', most oscillators in studios were sine because that's what test equipment usually 
provided. 

Later, in the analog golden era, most modular and many monosynths provided quality 
sines (Arp, Moog, EML, Aries Polyfusion, etc.). You can hear the widespread use of the sine 
in a lot of EM music written back then.

The analog revival in the 80'sand 90's was primarily driven by analog bass requirements. 
That meant a very *fat* sawtooth oscillator driving a hi-Q LPF. 

From looks of it, it's still pretty much the same requirement today.I'm guessing it's why 
many on this thread can't imagine why a musician would want a dull and "sterile" wave like 
the sine.

And probably why vendors like Doepfer put no engineering effort into sines - customers 
want fat unstable waves - not precise thin waves!


--- In Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com, "p. hendricks" <ph@...> wrote:

>
> On 12/1/08 11:23 AM, "Argitoth" <argitoth@...> wrote:
> 
> > ... I don't understand why people can't accept the fact some of us
> > desire perfection.
> 
> Duke Ellington: "If it sounds good, it IS good."
> perfect anything doesn't mean it sounds good, it just all will sound the
> same, plenty of great pre-amps out there, but classics are always quite
> colored like the the Neve. There are plenty of pre-amp with better specs
> than the neve for $100, but a Neve is still a $3000+ preamp.
> 
> If you want perfect, that is software/digital the only reason analog still
> exists is because it often sounds better, why, the imperfections.
> Analog: tweaked until it sounds good
> Digital: tweaked until it looks good
> 
> as for that sine, no one cared about that poor sine wave until about 10
> years ago. Many synths don't offer it, even Blacet wasn't going to include
> it on their VCO, until enough of us asked about it. So it probably is an
> after-thought on many modules especially on designs older than 5 years. The
> sine was really dead until microsound folks like Ryoji Ikeda started to
> exploit it. Still those "perfect" sterile waves were from test equipment or
> computers, as it took a mammoth $5000.00 test osc to produce such perfect
> sines for them or the computer which could easily do it. But without out
> even the subtle imperfections that analog will always exhibit and gives it
> it's uniqueness often "warmth."
> 
> Since you're result is audio, I'd kinda think you you should base your
> direction and opinions on what sounds good to you.
> -p
>

That's in the A-110 info page - NOT the A-111. Right?


--- In Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com, Pieter Volger <volger@...> wrote:

>
> RTFM
> 
> "_Technical remarks:
> _The core of the A-110 is a sawtooth oscillator (in contrast to the 
> A-111-1 <http://www.doepfer.de/a111.htm>, which is based on a triangle 
> oscillator). The other waveforms are derived from the sawtooth by 
> internal waveform converters. As the sawtooth reset (i.e. the 
> back-to-zero slope) is not infinite fast but takes a little bit of time 
> the derived waveforms triangle and sine are not perfect ! At the top of 
> the waveform they have a small glitch or notch that is caused by the 
> sawtooth reset and cannot be eliminated by the waveform converters. The 
> sine is derived from the triangle by a simple diode-based converter and 
> the sine shape is not perfect (only a rounded triangle).
> If a perfect triangle is required the A-111-1 
> <http://www.doepfer.de/a111.htm> is recommended. For a perfect sine the 
> quadrature LFO/VCO A-143-9 <http://www.doepfer.de/a1439.htm> is recommended.
> "
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> laryn91 schrieb:
> >
> > > And we will point out in the module information and user's guide of 
> > A-110
> > > and A-111 that the sine outputs should be called more precisely 
> > "sine-like".
> >
> > Dieter,
> >
> > It's probably just me, but where do you point that out for the A-111? 
> > In my A-111 manual
> > you say just the opposite:
> >
> > "Sine waves are pure waves: they just contain the
> > fundamental, without any harmonics (see Fig. 5).
> > They are thus not suitable for subtractive synthesis
> > (shaping sound with a filter) - as there's nothing to take
> > away!"
> >
> > To the contrary, the A-111 sine is still suitable for subtractive 
> > synthesis. To be accurate,
> > you should say "not suitable for additive synthesis" instead.
> >
> > >If you want a perfect sine you need a VCO
> > > with a sine core.
> >
> > Instead of an impossible "perfect sine", how about just a sine with no 
> > *audible* overtones
> > (<1% THD) like Arp, Moog, Aries, Polyfusion, EML,etc. used to make? 
> > That would now
> > make the A-111 useful for additive synthesis and FM.
> >
> > All you need to do is copy their simple but superior triangle-to-sine 
> > converter design. ;-)
> >
> > --- In Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com 
> > <mailto:Doepfer_a100%40yahoogroups.com>, <yahoo@> wrote:
> > >
> > > I will not participate in the emotional discussion about sine waves 
> > but want
> > > to mention some technical details (some of these have been already 
> > mentioned
> > > earlier):
> > >
> > > All standard VCO circuits I know are based on a sawtooth or triangle 
> > core.
> > > When the sine wave is derived from one of these VCO cores you will never
> > > obtain a perfect sine. The antiparallel diodes are the simplest 
> > solution to
> > > derive a sine-like wave from a triangle, the FET circuit is a bit 
> > better but
> > > even far away from beeing perfect. Each kind of waveform converter is a
> > > compromise (except rectangle). If you want a perfect sine you need a VCO
> > > with a sine core. And in return: if you want a perfect triangle you 
> > need a
> > > VCO with a triangle core, if you want a perfect sawtooth ...
> > >
> > > The A-143-9 is the only oscillator in the A-100 that uses a sine core.
> > > Though it was not planned as a VCO but mainly VCLFO it can be 
> > (ab)used as
> > > sine VCO. The main drawback of the A-143-9 is the missing temperature
> > > compensation of the exponential generator. We consider to develop a 
> > sine VCO
> > > based on the A-143-9 circuit but with a temperature compensated 
> > exponential
> > > generator. I expect that the price would be in the Euro 100 range. 
> > We are
> > > also working on a VCO with sine core and linear FM with thru-zero 
> > feature.
> > > But this is another "construction site" because the linear FM and 
> > thru-zero
> > > feature is much more complicated than adding "only" the temperature
> > > compensation.
> > >
> > > And we will point out in the module information and user's guide of 
> > A-110
> > > and A-111 that the sine outputs should be called more precisely 
> > "sine-like".
> > > But even rectangles or triangles are not perfect (each rectangle is 
> > kind of
> > > trapezoid as each rising and falling edge has a slope that depends 
> > on the
> > > inherent slew limiting characteristic of analog circuitry).
> > >
> > > Best wishes
> > > Dieter Doepfer
> > >
> >
> >
>

RTFM

"_Technical remarks:
_The core of the A-110 is a sawtooth oscillator (in contrast to the 
A-111-1 <http://www.doepfer.de/a111.htm>, which is based on a triangle 
oscillator). The other waveforms are derived from the sawtooth by 
internal waveform converters. As the sawtooth reset (i.e. the 
back-to-zero slope) is not infinite fast but takes a little bit of time 
the derived waveforms triangle and sine are not perfect ! At the top of 
the waveform they have a small glitch or notch that is caused by the 
sawtooth reset and cannot be eliminated by the waveform converters. The 
sine is derived from the triangle by a simple diode-based converter and 
the sine shape is not perfect (only a rounded triangle).
If a perfect triangle is required the A-111-1 
<http://www.doepfer.de/a111.htm> is recommended. For a perfect sine the 
quadrature LFO/VCO A-143-9 <http://www.doepfer.de/a1439.htm> is recommended.
"











laryn91 schrieb:

>
> > And we will point out in the module information and user's guide of 
> A-110
> > and A-111 that the sine outputs should be called more precisely 
> "sine-like".
>
> Dieter,
>
> It's probably just me, but where do you point that out for the A-111? 
> In my A-111 manual
> you say just the opposite:
>
> "Sine waves are pure waves: they just contain the
> fundamental, without any harmonics (see Fig. 5).
> They are thus not suitable for subtractive synthesis
> (shaping sound with a filter) - as there's nothing to take
> away!"
>
> To the contrary, the A-111 sine is still suitable for subtractive 
> synthesis. To be accurate,
> you should say "not suitable for additive synthesis" instead.
>
> >If you want a perfect sine you need a VCO
> > with a sine core.
>
> Instead of an impossible "perfect sine", how about just a sine with no 
> *audible* overtones
> (<1% THD) like Arp, Moog, Aries, Polyfusion, EML,etc. used to make? 
> That would now
> make the A-111 useful for additive synthesis and FM.
>
> All you need to do is copy their simple but superior triangle-to-sine 
> converter design. ;-)
>
> --- In Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com 
> <mailto:Doepfer_a100%40yahoogroups.com>, <yahoo@...> wrote:
> >
> > I will not participate in the emotional discussion about sine waves 
> but want
> > to mention some technical details (some of these have been already 
> mentioned
> > earlier):
> >
> > All standard VCO circuits I know are based on a sawtooth or triangle 
> core.
> > When the sine wave is derived from one of these VCO cores you will never
> > obtain a perfect sine. The antiparallel diodes are the simplest 
> solution to
> > derive a sine-like wave from a triangle, the FET circuit is a bit 
> better but
> > even far away from beeing perfect. Each kind of waveform converter is a
> > compromise (except rectangle). If you want a perfect sine you need a VCO
> > with a sine core. And in return: if you want a perfect triangle you 
> need a
> > VCO with a triangle core, if you want a perfect sawtooth ...
> >
> > The A-143-9 is the only oscillator in the A-100 that uses a sine core.
> > Though it was not planned as a VCO but mainly VCLFO it can be 
> (ab)used as
> > sine VCO. The main drawback of the A-143-9 is the missing temperature
> > compensation of the exponential generator. We consider to develop a 
> sine VCO
> > based on the A-143-9 circuit but with a temperature compensated 
> exponential
> > generator. I expect that the price would be in the Euro 100 range. 
> We are
> > also working on a VCO with sine core and linear FM with thru-zero 
> feature.
> > But this is another "construction site" because the linear FM and 
> thru-zero
> > feature is much more complicated than adding "only" the temperature
> > compensation.
> >
> > And we will point out in the module information and user's guide of 
> A-110
> > and A-111 that the sine outputs should be called more precisely 
> "sine-like".
> > But even rectangles or triangles are not perfect (each rectangle is 
> kind of
> > trapezoid as each rising and falling edge has a slope that depends 
> on the
> > inherent slew limiting characteristic of analog circuitry).
> >
> > Best wishes
> > Dieter Doepfer
> >
>
>

Not sure why you found it relevant to quote the A-110 manual. My post below refers to 
the A-111.

--- In Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com, Pieter Volger <volger@...> wrote:

>
> RTFM
> 
> "_Technical remarks:
> _The core of the A-110 is a sawtooth oscillator (in contrast to the 
> A-111-1 <http://www.doepfer.de/a111.htm>, which is based on a triangle 
> oscillator). The other waveforms are derived from the sawtooth by 
> internal waveform converters. As the sawtooth reset (i.e. the 
> back-to-zero slope) is not infinite fast but takes a little bit of time 
> the derived waveforms triangle and sine are not perfect ! At the top of 
> the waveform they have a small glitch or notch that is caused by the 
> sawtooth reset and cannot be eliminated by the waveform converters. The 
> sine is derived from the triangle by a simple diode-based converter and 
> the sine shape is not perfect (only a rounded triangle).
> If a perfect triangle is required the A-111-1 
> <http://www.doepfer.de/a111.htm> is recommended. For a perfect sine the 
> quadrature LFO/VCO A-143-9 <http://www.doepfer.de/a1439.htm> is recommended.
> "
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> laryn91 schrieb:
> >
> > > And we will point out in the module information and user's guide of 
> > A-110
> > > and A-111 that the sine outputs should be called more precisely 
> > "sine-like".
> >
> > Dieter,
> >
> > It's probably just me, but where do you point that out for the A-111? 
> > In my A-111 manual
> > you say just the opposite:
> >
> > "Sine waves are pure waves: they just contain the
> > fundamental, without any harmonics (see Fig. 5).
> > They are thus not suitable for subtractive synthesis
> > (shaping sound with a filter) - as there's nothing to take
> > away!"
> >
> > To the contrary, the A-111 sine is still suitable for subtractive 
> > synthesis. To be accurate,
> > you should say "not suitable for additive synthesis" instead.
> >
> > >If you want a perfect sine you need a VCO
> > > with a sine core.
> >
> > Instead of an impossible "perfect sine", how about just a sine with no 
> > *audible* overtones
> > (<1% THD) like Arp, Moog, Aries, Polyfusion, EML,etc. used to make? 
> > That would now
> > make the A-111 useful for additive synthesis and FM.
> >
> > All you need to do is copy their simple but superior triangle-to-sine 
> > converter design. ;-)
> >
> > --- In Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com 
> > <mailto:Doepfer_a100%40yahoogroups.com>, <yahoo@> wrote:
> > >
> > > I will not participate in the emotional discussion about sine waves 
> > but want
> > > to mention some technical details (some of these have been already 
> > mentioned
> > > earlier):
> > >
> > > All standard VCO circuits I know are based on a sawtooth or triangle 
> > core.
> > > When the sine wave is derived from one of these VCO cores you will never
> > > obtain a perfect sine. The antiparallel diodes are the simplest 
> > solution to
> > > derive a sine-like wave from a triangle, the FET circuit is a bit 
> > better but
> > > even far away from beeing perfect. Each kind of waveform converter is a
> > > compromise (except rectangle). If you want a perfect sine you need a VCO
> > > with a sine core. And in return: if you want a perfect triangle you 
> > need a
> > > VCO with a triangle core, if you want a perfect sawtooth ...
> > >
> > > The A-143-9 is the only oscillator in the A-100 that uses a sine core.
> > > Though it was not planned as a VCO but mainly VCLFO it can be 
> > (ab)used as
> > > sine VCO. The main drawback of the A-143-9 is the missing temperature
> > > compensation of the exponential generator. We consider to develop a 
> > sine VCO
> > > based on the A-143-9 circuit but with a temperature compensated 
> > exponential
> > > generator. I expect that the price would be in the Euro 100 range. 
> > We are
> > > also working on a VCO with sine core and linear FM with thru-zero 
> > feature.
> > > But this is another "construction site" because the linear FM and 
> > thru-zero
> > > feature is much more complicated than adding "only" the temperature
> > > compensation.
> > >
> > > And we will point out in the module information and user's guide of 
> > A-110
> > > and A-111 that the sine outputs should be called more precisely 
> > "sine-like".
> > > But even rectangles or triangles are not perfect (each rectangle is 
> > kind of
> > > trapezoid as each rising and falling edge has a slope that depends 
> > on the
> > > inherent slew limiting characteristic of analog circuitry).
> > >
> > > Best wishes
> > > Dieter Doepfer
> > >
> >
> >
>

Sorry, I missed the "will" part  :-p

I had this link to the Aries VCO in one of the posts on this (endless) thread. This is an 
excellent tri-to-sine converter (I can't hear any additional overtones). Better than the more 
common 3080 converter and significantly better than your diode converter. Aries claimed 
to produce <1% THD.

http://www.leinermedia.net/aries/AriesSchematics/AR-317s.gif

I'm not sure why you found adding a slightly filtered triangle sounding wave useful when 
there's already a triangle wave output. My suggestion is if your customers are not 
interested in a clean Sine output, use the panel real estate for something more useful.


--- In Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com, <yahoo@...> wrote:

>
> You find my answers written inline.
> 
> Best wishes
> Dieter Doepfer
> 
> > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> > Von: Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com
> > [mailto:Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com]Im Auftrag von laryn91
> > Gesendet: Dienstag, 2. Dezember 2008 17:20
> > An: Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com
> > Betreff: [Doepfer_a100] Re: Sine wave discussion
> >
> >
> > > And we will point out in the module information and user's guide of
> A-110
> > > and A-111 that the sine outputs should be called more precisely
> "sine-like".
> >
> > Dieter,
> >
> > It's probably just me, but where do you point that out for the A-111?
> 
> I wrote that "we will", not that "we did". That's the future tense from what
> I learned in scool - but I'm not a native speaker.
> 
> > >If you want a perfect sine you need a VCO with a sine core.
> >
> > Instead of an impossible "perfect sine", how about just a sine with no
> *audible* overtones
> > (<1% THD) like Arp,  Moog, Aries, Polyfusion, EML,etc. used to make? That
> would now
> > make the A-111 useful for additive synthesis and FM.
> >
> > All you need to do is copy their simple but superior
> > triangle-to-sine converter design. ;-)
> 
> Though I can't believe that they really reach <1% THD (but indeed I never
> measured it): do you (or anybody else in the group) know the circuitry of
> these converters. Are they made with diodes, OTAs or the JFET circuit (these
> are the three triangle-to-sine converter principles I know). I don't have
> the schematics of these VCOs.
> 
> We would have offered a VCO with a more perfect sine in the past. But it
> took more than 12 years (the A-111 is available since spring 1996) until
> someone complained about the poor sine. I'll see what we can do. Maybe we
> offer a small tri-to-sine converter board for the A-111-1 that can be used
> instead of the simple diode converter.
> 
> There was a similar discussion about 2 years ago (~ September 2006) and Tim
> Stinchcombe suggested an improved sine wave converter based on the JFET
> principle. We have built a prototype of this converter in 2006 but the
> discussion fell asleep very soon and it seemed that nobody was interested
> anymore. We could dig this design and offer it as an addendum to the A-111-1
> or equip all new A-111-1 with this board. The additional charges would be in
> the 15 Euro range (about 10 electronical parts mounted on a small board).
> 
> Best wishes
> Dieter Doepfer
>

You find my answers written inline.

Best wishes
Dieter Doepfer

> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com]Im Auftrag von laryn91
> Gesendet: Dienstag, 2. Dezember 2008 17:20
> An: Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com
> Betreff: [Doepfer_a100] Re: Sine wave discussion
>
>
> > And we will point out in the module information and user's guide of
A-110
> > and A-111 that the sine outputs should be called more precisely
"sine-like".
>
> Dieter,
>
> It's probably just me, but where do you point that out for the A-111?

I wrote that "we will", not that "we did". That's the future tense from what
I learned in scool - but I'm not a native speaker.

> >If you want a perfect sine you need a VCO with a sine core.
>
> Instead of an impossible "perfect sine", how about just a sine with no
*audible* overtones
> (<1% THD) like Arp,  Moog, Aries, Polyfusion, EML,etc. used to make? That
would now
> make the A-111 useful for additive synthesis and FM.
>
> All you need to do is copy their simple but superior
> triangle-to-sine converter design. ;-)

Though I can't believe that they really reach <1% THD (but indeed I never
measured it): do you (or anybody else in the group) know the circuitry of
these converters. Are they made with diodes, OTAs or the JFET circuit (these
are the three triangle-to-sine converter principles I know). I don't have
the schematics of these VCOs.

We would have offered a VCO with a more perfect sine in the past. But it
took more than 12 years (the A-111 is available since spring 1996) until
someone complained about the poor sine. I'll see what we can do. Maybe we
offer a small tri-to-sine converter board for the A-111-1 that can be used
instead of the simple diode converter.

There was a similar discussion about 2 years ago (~ September 2006) and Tim
Stinchcombe suggested an improved sine wave converter based on the JFET
principle. We have built a prototype of this converter in 2006 but the
discussion fell asleep very soon and it seemed that nobody was interested
anymore. We could dig this design and offer it as an addendum to the A-111-1
or equip all new A-111-1 with this board. The additional charges would be in
the 15 Euro range (about 10 electronical parts mounted on a small board).

Best wishes
Dieter Doepfer

> And probably why vendors like Doepfer put no engineering effort into
sines - customers
> want fat unstable waves - not precise thin waves!

We will put efforts into sines and we already have ! We have the existing
A-143-9 quadrature oscillator which has probably a more perfect sine than
all the other oscillators your mentioned. And you also ignored my suggestion
to improve the A-143-9 by adding a temperature compensation. We definitely
listen to what our customers want to have. Most of the newer A-100 modules
are based on ideas and suggestions of this group ! But it needs to be more
than one interested user before start a new design or redesign. So lets
start with a poll how many users would be interested in

a) improved tri-to-sine converter for A-111-1 (about Euro 15 additional
charges)
b) temperature compensated exponential generator for the A-143-9 (about Euro
30 additional charges)

I think that's much more constructive than to offend other users.

Best wishes
Dieter Doepfer

The part of this circuit that does the conversion seems pretty  
straight ahead and looks simple enough to make as a stan-alone module.  
If one was needing to make sines and had a triangle VCO already (that  
made a decent Triangle wave) then a converter module would work fine -  
a bit esoteric for mass production though.
-James

PS - sorry to all for starting this thread with my Z3000 post. I had  
my questions answered a long time ago.


On Dec 2, 2008, at 10:38 AM, laryn91 wrote:

> Sorry, I missed the "will" part :-p
>
> I had this link to the Aries VCO in one of the posts on this  
> (endless) thread. This is an
> excellent tri-to-sine converter (I can't hear any additional  
> overtones). Better than the more
> common 3080 converter and significantly better than your diode  
> converter. Aries claimed
> to produce <1% THD.
>
> http://www.leinermedia.net/aries/AriesSchematics/AR-317s.gif
>
> I'm not sure why you found adding a slightly filtered triangle  
> sounding wave useful when
> there's already a triangle wave output. My suggestion is if your  
> customers are not
> interested in a clean Sine output, use the panel real estate for  
> something more useful.
>
> --- In Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com, <yahoo@...> wrote:
> >
> > You find my answers written inline.
> >
> > Best wishes
> > Dieter Doepfer
> >
> > > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> > > Von: Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com
> > > [mailto:Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com]Im Auftrag von laryn91
> > > Gesendet: Dienstag, 2. Dezember 2008 17:20
> > > An: Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com
> > > Betreff: [Doepfer_a100] Re: Sine wave discussion
> > >
> > >
> > > > And we will point out in the module information and user's  
> guide of
> > A-110
> > > > and A-111 that the sine outputs should be called more precisely
> > "sine-like".
> > >
> > > Dieter,
> > >
> > > It's probably just me, but where do you point that out for the  
> A-111?
> >
> > I wrote that "we will", not that "we did". That's the future tense  
> from what
> > I learned in scool - but I'm not a native speaker.
> >
> > > >If you want a perfect sine you need a VCO with a sine core.
> > >
> > > Instead of an impossible "perfect sine", how about just a sine  
> with no
> > *audible* overtones
> > > (<1% THD) like Arp, Moog, Aries, Polyfusion, EML,etc. used to  
> make? That
> > would now
> > > make the A-111 useful for additive synthesis and FM.
> > >
> > > All you need to do is copy their simple but superior
> > > triangle-to-sine converter design. ;-)
> >
> > Though I can't believe that they really reach <1% THD (but indeed  
> I never
> > measured it): do you (or anybody else in the group) know the  
> circuitry of
> > these converters. Are they made with diodes, OTAs or the JFET  
> circuit (these
> > are the three triangle-to-sine converter principles I know). I  
> don't have
> > the schematics of these VCOs.
> >
> > We would have offered a VCO with a more perfect sine in the past.  
> But it
> > took more than 12 years (the A-111 is available since spring 1996)  
> until
> > someone complained about the poor sine. I'll see what we can do.  
> Maybe we
> > offer a small tri-to-sine converter board for the A-111-1 that can  
> be used
> > instead of the simple diode converter.
> >
> > There was a similar discussion about 2 years ago (~ September  
> 2006) and Tim
> > Stinchcombe suggested an improved sine wave converter based on the  
> JFET
> > principle. We have built a prototype of this converter in 2006 but  
> the
> > discussion fell asleep very soon and it seemed that nobody was  
> interested
> > anymore. We could dig this design and offer it as an addendum to  
> the A-111-1
> > or equip all new A-111-1 with this board. The additional charges  
> would be in
> > the 15 Euro range (about 10 electronical parts mounted on a small  
> board).
> >
> > Best wishes
> > Dieter Doepfer
> >
>
>
> 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

sorry, you are right.
my fault!



laryn91 schrieb:

>
> That's in the A-110 info page - NOT the A-111. Right?
>
> --- In Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com 
> <mailto:Doepfer_a100%40yahoogroups.com>, Pieter Volger <volger@...> wrote:
> >
> > RTFM
> >
> > "_Technical remarks:
> > _The core of the A-110 is a sawtooth oscillator (in contrast to the
> > A-111-1 <http://www.doepfer.de/a111.htm 
> <http://www.doepfer.de/a111.htm>>, which is based on a triangle
> > oscillator). The other waveforms are derived from the sawtooth by
> > internal waveform converters. As the sawtooth reset (i.e. the
> > back-to-zero slope) is not infinite fast but takes a little bit of time
> > the derived waveforms triangle and sine are not perfect ! At the top of
> > the waveform they have a small glitch or notch that is caused by the
> > sawtooth reset and cannot be eliminated by the waveform converters. The
> > sine is derived from the triangle by a simple diode-based converter and
> > the sine shape is not perfect (only a rounded triangle).
> > If a perfect triangle is required the A-111-1
> > <http://www.doepfer.de/a111.htm <http://www.doepfer.de/a111.htm>> is 
> recommended. For a perfect sine the
> > quadrature LFO/VCO A-143-9 <http://www.doepfer.de/a1439.htm 
> <http://www.doepfer.de/a1439.htm>> is recommended.
> > "
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > laryn91 schrieb:
> > >
> > > > And we will point out in the module information and user's guide of
> > > A-110
> > > > and A-111 that the sine outputs should be called more precisely
> > > "sine-like".
> > >
> > > Dieter,
> > >
> > > It's probably just me, but where do you point that out for the A-111?
> > > In my A-111 manual
> > > you say just the opposite:
> > >
> > > "Sine waves are pure waves: they just contain the
> > > fundamental, without any harmonics (see Fig. 5).
> > > They are thus not suitable for subtractive synthesis
> > > (shaping sound with a filter) - as there's nothing to take
> > > away!"
> > >
> > > To the contrary, the A-111 sine is still suitable for subtractive
> > > synthesis. To be accurate,
> > > you should say "not suitable for additive synthesis" instead.
> > >
> > > >If you want a perfect sine you need a VCO
> > > > with a sine core.
> > >
> > > Instead of an impossible "perfect sine", how about just a sine 
> with no
> > > *audible* overtones
> > > (<1% THD) like Arp, Moog, Aries, Polyfusion, EML,etc. used to make?
> > > That would now
> > > make the A-111 useful for additive synthesis and FM.
> > >
> > > All you need to do is copy their simple but superior triangle-to-sine
> > > converter design. ;-)
> > >
> > > --- In Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com 
> <mailto:Doepfer_a100%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > <mailto:Doepfer_a100%40yahoogroups.com>, <yahoo@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I will not participate in the emotional discussion about sine waves
> > > but want
> > > > to mention some technical details (some of these have been already
> > > mentioned
> > > > earlier):
> > > >
> > > > All standard VCO circuits I know are based on a sawtooth or 
> triangle
> > > core.
> > > > When the sine wave is derived from one of these VCO cores you 
> will never
> > > > obtain a perfect sine. The antiparallel diodes are the simplest
> > > solution to
> > > > derive a sine-like wave from a triangle, the FET circuit is a bit
> > > better but
> > > > even far away from beeing perfect. Each kind of waveform 
> converter is a
> > > > compromise (except rectangle). If you want a perfect sine you 
> need a VCO
> > > > with a sine core. And in return: if you want a perfect triangle you
> > > need a
> > > > VCO with a triangle core, if you want a perfect sawtooth ...
> > > >
> > > > The A-143-9 is the only oscillator in the A-100 that uses a sine 
> core.
> > > > Though it was not planned as a VCO but mainly VCLFO it can be
> > > (ab)used as
> > > > sine VCO. The main drawback of the A-143-9 is the missing 
> temperature
> > > > compensation of the exponential generator. We consider to develop a
> > > sine VCO
> > > > based on the A-143-9 circuit but with a temperature compensated
> > > exponential
> > > > generator. I expect that the price would be in the Euro 100 range.
> > > We are
> > > > also working on a VCO with sine core and linear FM with thru-zero
> > > feature.
> > > > But this is another "construction site" because the linear FM and
> > > thru-zero
> > > > feature is much more complicated than adding "only" the temperature
> > > > compensation.
> > > >
> > > > And we will point out in the module information and user's guide of
> > > A-110
> > > > and A-111 that the sine outputs should be called more precisely
> > > "sine-like".
> > > > But even rectangles or triangles are not perfect (each rectangle is
> > > kind of
> > > > trapezoid as each rising and falling edge has a slope that depends
> > > on the
> > > > inherent slew limiting characteristic of analog circuitry).
> > > >
> > > > Best wishes
> > > > Dieter Doepfer
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>

Couldn't we just use a standard LPF for this?

On Dec 2, 2008, at 11:46 AM, James Husted wrote:

> The part of this circuit that does the conversion seems pretty
> straight ahead and looks simple enough to make as a stan-alone module.
> If one was needing to make sines and had a triangle VCO already (that
> made a decent Triangle wave) then a converter module would work fine -
> a bit esoteric for mass production though.
> -James
>
> PS - sorry to all for starting this thread with my Z3000 post. I had
> my questions answered a long time ago.
>
> On Dec 2, 2008, at 10:38 AM, laryn91 wrote:
>
> > Sorry, I missed the "will" part :-p
> >
> > I had this link to the Aries VCO in one of the posts on this
> > (endless) thread. This is an
> > excellent tri-to-sine converter (I can't hear any additional
> > overtones). Better than the more
> > common 3080 converter and significantly better than your diode
> > converter. Aries claimed
> > to produce <1% THD.
> >
> > http://www.leinermedia.net/aries/AriesSchematics/AR-317s.gif
> >
> > I'm not sure why you found adding a slightly filtered triangle
> > sounding wave useful when
> > there's already a triangle wave output. My suggestion is if your
> > customers are not
> > interested in a clean Sine output, use the panel real estate for
> > something more useful.
> >
> > --- In Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com, <yahoo@...> wrote:
> > >
> > > You find my answers written inline.
> > >
> > > Best wishes
> > > Dieter Doepfer
> > >
> > > > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> > > > Von: Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com
> > > > [mailto:Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com]Im Auftrag von laryn91
> > > > Gesendet: Dienstag, 2. Dezember 2008 17:20
> > > > An: Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com
> > > > Betreff: [Doepfer_a100] Re: Sine wave discussion
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > And we will point out in the module information and user's
> > guide of
> > > A-110
> > > > > and A-111 that the sine outputs should be called more  
> precisely
> > > "sine-like".
> > > >
> > > > Dieter,
> > > >
> > > > It's probably just me, but where do you point that out for the
> > A-111?
> > >
> > > I wrote that "we will", not that "we did". That's the future tense
> > from what
> > > I learned in scool - but I'm not a native speaker.
> > >
> > > > >If you want a perfect sine you need a VCO with a sine core.
> > > >
> > > > Instead of an impossible "perfect sine", how about just a sine
> > with no
> > > *audible* overtones
> > > > (<1% THD) like Arp, Moog, Aries, Polyfusion, EML,etc. used to
> > make? That
> > > would now
> > > > make the A-111 useful for additive synthesis and FM.
> > > >
> > > > All you need to do is copy their simple but superior
> > > > triangle-to-sine converter design. ;-)
> > >
> > > Though I can't believe that they really reach <1% THD (but indeed
> > I never
> > > measured it): do you (or anybody else in the group) know the
> > circuitry of
> > > these converters. Are they made with diodes, OTAs or the JFET
> > circuit (these
> > > are the three triangle-to-sine converter principles I know). I
> > don't have
> > > the schematics of these VCOs.
> > >
> > > We would have offered a VCO with a more perfect sine in the past.
> > But it
> > > took more than 12 years (the A-111 is available since spring 1996)
> > until
> > > someone complained about the poor sine. I'll see what we can do.
> > Maybe we
> > > offer a small tri-to-sine converter board for the A-111-1 that can
> > be used
> > > instead of the simple diode converter.
> > >
> > > There was a similar discussion about 2 years ago (~ September
> > 2006) and Tim
> > > Stinchcombe suggested an improved sine wave converter based on the
> > JFET
> > > principle. We have built a prototype of this converter in 2006 but
> > the
> > > discussion fell asleep very soon and it seemed that nobody was
> > interested
> > > anymore. We could dig this design and offer it as an addendum to
> > the A-111-1
> > > or equip all new A-111-1 with this board. The additional charges
> > would be in
> > > the 15 Euro range (about 10 electronical parts mounted on a small
> > board).
> > >
> > > Best wishes
> > > Dieter Doepfer
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Would it be possible to offer two sine outputs - the existing sine
output for those of us who like it's character AND a new improved one
for those wanting something more clinical?

Cheers,
Adam-V 

--- In Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com, <yahoo@...> wrote:
> There was a similar discussion about 2 years ago (~ September 2006)
and Tim
> Stinchcombe suggested an improved sine wave converter based on the JFET
> principle. We have built a prototype of this converter in 2006 but the
> discussion fell asleep very soon and it seemed that nobody was
interested
> anymore. We could dig this design and offer it as an addendum to the
A-111-1
> or equip all new A-111-1 with this board. The additional charges
would be in
> the 15 Euro range (about 10 electronical parts mounted on a small
board).

> 
> Best wishes
> Dieter Doepfer
>

Couldn't we just have a poll? My suspicion is that the practical value of very good analogue sine waves will be high for only some. As Dieter posted, an  earlier discussion then fizzled out and didn't result in any product modifications. Maybe the discussion has shown there there is indeed a lot of (commercially tangible) interest in an oscillator with a very good sine output. On the other hand, maybe the interest is more intellectual and doesn't incite people to actually part with their money and buy the new design. A poll could give us at least an indication. I suggest something like this

"Do you want Doepfer to modify the sine-converter in the A-111 to produce a purer sine wave? The cost increase would be in the 5% - 10% range."


York




________________________________

From: Monroe Eskew <monroe.eskew@gmail.com>
To: Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 2, 2008 3:39:52 PM
Subject: Re: [Doepfer_a100] Re: Sine wave discussion


Couldn't we just use a standard LPF for this?

On Dec 2, 2008, at 11:46 AM, James Husted wrote:

> The part of this circuit that does the conversion seems pretty
> straight ahead and looks simple enough to make as a stan-alone module.
> If one was needing to make sines and had a triangle VCO already (that
> made a decent Triangle wave) then a converter module would work fine -
> a bit esoteric for mass production though.
> -James
>
> PS - sorry to all for starting this thread with my Z3000 post. I had
> my questions answered a long time ago.
>
> On Dec 2, 2008, at 10:38 AM, laryn91 wrote:
>
> > Sorry, I missed the "will" part :-p
> >
> > I had this link to the Aries VCO in one of the posts on this
> > (endless) thread. This is an
> > excellent tri-to-sine converter (I can't hear any additional
> > overtones). Better than the more
> > common 3080 converter and significantly better than your diode
> > converter. Aries claimed
> > to produce <1% THD.
> >
> > http://www.leinerme dia.net/aries/ AriesSchematics/ AR-317s.gif
> >
> > I'm not sure why you found adding a slightly filtered triangle
> > sounding wave useful when
> > there's already a triangle wave output. My suggestion is if your
> > customers are not
> > interested in a clean Sine output, use the panel real estate for
> > something more useful.
> >
> > --- In Doepfer_a100@ yahoogroups. com, <yahoo@...> wrote:
> > >
> > > You find my answers written inline.
> > >
> > > Best wishes
> > > Dieter Doepfer
> > >
> > > > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht--- --
> > > > Von: Doepfer_a100@ yahoogroups. com
> > > > [mailto:Doepfer_a100@ yahoogroups. com]Im Auftrag von laryn91
> > > > Gesendet: Dienstag, 2. Dezember 2008 17:20
> > > > An: Doepfer_a100@ yahoogroups. com
> > > > Betreff: [Doepfer_a100] Re: Sine wave discussion
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > And we will point out in the module information and user's
> > guide of
> > > A-110
> > > > > and A-111 that the sine outputs should be called more 
> precisely
> > > "sine-like".
> > > >
> > > > Dieter,
> > > >
> > > > It's probably just me, but where do you point that out for the
> > A-111?
> > >
> > > I wrote that "we will", not that "we did". That's the future tense
> > from what
> > > I learned in scool - but I'm not a native speaker.
> > >
> > > > >If you want a perfect sine you need a VCO with a sine core.
> > > >
> > > > Instead of an impossible "perfect sine", how about just a sine
> > with no
> > > *audible* overtones
> > > > (<1% THD) like Arp, Moog, Aries, Polyfusion, EML,etc. used to
> > make? That
> > > would now
> > > > make the A-111 useful for additive synthesis and FM.
> > > >
> > > > All you need to do is copy their simple but superior
> > > > triangle-to- sine converter design. ;-)
> > >
> > > Though I can't believe that they really reach <1% THD (but indeed
> > I never
> > > measured it): do you (or anybody else in the group) know the
> > circuitry of
> > > these converters. Are they made with diodes, OTAs or the JFET
> > circuit (these
> > > are the three triangle-to- sine converter principles I know). I
> > don't have
> > > the schematics of these VCOs.
> > >
> > > We would have offered a VCO with a more perfect sine in the past.
> > But it
> > > took more than 12 years (the A-111 is available since spring 1996)
> > until
> > > someone complained about the poor sine. I'll see what we can do.
> > Maybe we
> > > offer a small tri-to-sine converter board for the A-111-1 that can
> > be used
> > > instead of the simple diode converter.
> > >
> > > There was a similar discussion about 2 years ago (~ September
> > 2006) and Tim
> > > Stinchcombe suggested an improved sine wave converter based on the
> > JFET
> > > principle. We have built a prototype of this converter in 2006 but
> > the
> > > discussion fell asleep very soon and it seemed that nobody was
> > interested
> > > anymore. We could dig this design and offer it as an addendum to
> > the A-111-1
> > > or equip all new A-111-1 with this board. The additional charges
> > would be in
> > > the 15 Euro range (about 10 electronical parts mounted on a small
> > board).
> > >
> > > Best wishes
> > > Dieter Doepfer
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> 

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

    


      

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi laryn91

> To the contrary, the A-111 sine is still suitable for subtractive synthesis. To be accurate, 
> you should say "not suitable for additive synthesis" instead.
I think you should turn around and think about another group to bother. 
You don't understand any word someone is telling you. As already 
explained: additive synthesis with pure sines is not a topic for 
analogue synths, because you cannot frequency lock the single partial 
frequencies.


But I doubt the technical side is your main interest - it is about being 
right and about knowing it better than the others. So I offer to you: 
Yes you are better than we all, we all are little idiots compared to you 
- but please shut down this topic.

Otherwise I really I think it is time for Bakis to intervene...

Florian

Couldn't you lock partials if you designed a complex clock divider/osc
sync? Actually, what if you designed a module similar to a filterbank,
but produced sines instead of boosting a particular band of
frequencies?

On Tue, Dec 2, 2008 at 3:19 PM, Florian Anwander
<fanwander@mnet-online.de> wrote:
> Hi laryn91
>
>> To the contrary, the A-111 sine is still suitable for subtractive
>> synthesis. To be accurate,
>> you should say "not suitable for additive synthesis" instead.
> I think you should turn around and think about another group to bother.
> You don't understand any word someone is telling you. As already
> explained: additive synthesis with pure sines is not a topic for
> analogue synths, because you cannot frequency lock the single partial
> frequencies.
>
> But I doubt the technical side is your main interest - it is about being
> right and about knowing it better than the others. So I offer to you:
> Yes you are better than we all, we all are little idiots compared to you
> - but please shut down this topic.
>
> Otherwise I really I think it is time for Bakis to intervene...
>
> Florian
>
> 



-- 
www.elanhickler.com

On Tue, Dec 2, 2008 at 2:31 PM, Argitoth <argitoth@gmail.com> wrote:
> Couldn't you lock partials if you designed a complex clock divider/osc
> sync? Actually, what if you designed a module similar to a filterbank,
> but produced sines instead of boosting a particular band of
> frequencies?

What if you just bought a DX7 already?

I apologize, I thought I could keep my composure, but this thread just
keeps on going and going and...

-Brandon

http://www.analoguesystems.co.uk/modules/rs370.htm




________________________________

From: Argitoth <argitoth@gmail.com>
To: Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 2, 2008 5:31:07 PM
Subject: Re: [Doepfer_a100] Re: Sine wave discussion - EOD?


Couldn't you lock partials if you designed a complex clock divider/osc
sync? Actually, what if you designed a module similar to a filterbank,
but produced sines instead of boosting a particular band of
frequencies?

On Tue, Dec 2, 2008 at 3:19 PM, Florian Anwander
<fanwander@mnet- online.de> wrote:
> Hi laryn91
>
>> To the contrary, the A-111 sine is still suitable for subtractive
>> synthesis. To be accurate,
>> you should say "not suitable for additive synthesis" instead.
> I think you should turn around and think about another group to bother.
> You don't understand any word someone is telling you. As already
> explained: additive synthesis with pure sines is not a topic for
> analogue synths, because you cannot frequency lock the single partial
> frequencies.
>
> But I doubt the technical side is your main interest - it is about being
> right and about knowing it better than the others. So I offer to you:
> Yes you are better than we all, we all are little idiots compared to you
> - but please shut down this topic.
>
> Otherwise I really I think it is time for Bakis to intervene...
>
> Florian
>
> 

-- 
www.elanhickler. com
    


      

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

the A111 IS useful for linear FM as it is now.
i am using my A111's for linear FM for 8 years now...


Bakis Sirros - Parallel Worlds / Interconnected / Memory Geist
[Doepfer_a100] group owner
www. parallel - worlds - music. com
www. myspace. com/ parallelworldsmusic
www. myspace. com/ interconnectedmusic
www. myspace. com/ memorygeist
www. DiN. org. uk
www. musicamaximamagnetica. com
www. shimarecords. co. uk
www. rubberrecords. gr
Athens - Greece

--- On Tue, 12/2/08, laryn91 <caymus91@mac.com> wrote:

From: laryn91 <caymus91@mac.com>
Subject: [Doepfer_a100] Re: Sine wave discussion
To: Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, December 2, 2008, 6:19 PM






> And we will point out in the module information and user's guide of A-110
> and A-111 that the sine outputs should be called more precisely "sine-like".

Dieter,

It's probably just me, but where do you point that out for the A-111? In my A-111 manual 
you say just the opposite:

"Sine waves are pure waves: they just contain the
fundamental, without any harmonics (see Fig. 5).
They are thus not suitable for subtractive synthesis
(shaping sound with a filter) - as there's nothing to take
away!"

To the contrary, the A-111 sine is still suitable for subtractive synthesis. To be accurate, 
you should say "not suitable for additive synthesis" instead.

>If you want a perfect sine you need a VCO
> with a sine core.

Instead of an impossible "perfect sine", how about just a sine with no *audible* overtones 
(<1% THD) like Arp, Moog, Aries, Polyfusion, EML,etc. used to make? That would now 
make the A-111 useful for additive synthesis and FM.

All you need to do is copy their simple but superior triangle-to- sine converter design. ;-)

--- In Doepfer_a100@ yahoogroups. com, <yahoo@...> wrote:
>
> I will not participate in the emotional discussion about sine waves but want
> to mention some technical details (some of these have been already mentioned
> earlier):
> 
> All standard VCO circuits I know are based on a sawtooth or triangle core.
> When the sine wave is derived from one of these VCO cores you will never
> obtain a perfect sine. The antiparallel diodes are the simplest solution to
> derive a sine-like wave from a triangle, the FET circuit is a bit better but
> even far away from beeing perfect. Each kind of waveform converter is a
> compromise (except rectangle). If you want a perfect sine you need a VCO
> with a sine core. And in return: if you want a perfect triangle you need a
> VCO with a triangle core, if you want a perfect sawtooth ...
> 
> The A-143-9 is the only oscillator in the A-100 that uses a sine core.
> Though it was not planned as a VCO but mainly VCLFO it can be (ab)used as
> sine VCO. The main drawback of the A-143-9 is the missing temperature
> compensation of the exponential generator. We consider to develop a sine VCO
> based on the A-143-9 circuit but with a temperature compensated exponential
> generator. I expect that the price would be in the Euro 100 range. We are
> also working on a VCO with sine core and linear FM with thru-zero feature.
> But this is another "construction site" because the linear FM and thru-zero
> feature is much more complicated than adding "only" the temperature
> compensation.
> 
> And we will point out in the module information and user's guide of A-110
> and A-111 that the sine outputs should be called more precisely "sine-like".
> But even rectangles or triangles are not perfect (each rectangle is kind of
> trapezoid as each rising and falling edge has a slope that depends on the
> inherent slew limiting characteristic of analog circuitry).
> 
> Best wishes
> Dieter Doepfer
>

 














      

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Dec 2, 2008, at 2:35 PM, Brandon Daniel wrote:

> What if you just bought a DX7 already?

Not really the same thing. Some of the cooler early Buchla stuff from  
Morton Subotnick relied on a lot of fairly high quality sines out of  
Buchla 258 oscillators. I see nothing wrong with wanting high quality  
sines from an analog oscillator.


> I apologize, I thought I could keep my composure, but this thread just
> keeps on going and going and...


I agree that this is more like an Analog Heaven thread than a Doepfer  
list thread, but you're always free to skip it.

- C

Chris Muir
cbm@well.com	
http://www.xfade.com

hi Dieter,
 
ok, i'll make this poll soon.
 
thanks,
Bakis. (a Very Tolerant moderator)
 


Bakis Sirros - Parallel Worlds / Interconnected / Memory Geist
[Doepfer_a100] group owner
www. parallel - worlds - music. com
www. myspace. com/ parallelworldsmusic
www. myspace. com/ interconnectedmusic
www. myspace. com/ memorygeist
www. DiN. org. uk
www. musicamaximamagnetica. com
www. shimarecords. co. uk
www. rubberrecords. gr
Athens - Greece

--- On Tue, 12/2/08, yahoo@doepfer.de <yahoo@doepfer.de> wrote:

From: yahoo@doepfer.de <yahoo@doepfer.de>
Subject: [Doepfer_a100] the sine story continues ...
To: Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, December 2, 2008, 8:13 PM






> And probably why vendors like Doepfer put no engineering effort into
sines - customers
> want fat unstable waves - not precise thin waves!

We will put efforts into sines and we already have ! We have the existing
A-143-9 quadrature oscillator which has probably a more perfect sine than
all the other oscillators your mentioned. And you also ignored my suggestion
to improve the A-143-9 by adding a temperature compensation. We definitely
listen to what our customers want to have. Most of the newer A-100 modules
are based on ideas and suggestions of this group ! But it needs to be more
than one interested user before start a new design or redesign. So lets
start with a poll how many users would be interested in

a) improved tri-to-sine converter for A-111-1 (about Euro 15 additional
charges)
b) temperature compensated exponential generator for the A-143-9 (about Euro
30 additional charges)

I think that's much more constructive than to offend other users.

Best wishes
Dieter Doepfer

 














      

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> hi Dieter,
>  
> ok, i'll make this poll soon.
>  
> thanks,
> Bakis. (a Very Tolerant moderator)

Thank you. I hope it will to put some oil on troubled waters :-)

Dieter