EXS 24 Logic Sampler Users Group

If you know me, you will also know that I am one of the most loyal Logic
supporters.
But shelling out around 2500 Euros (and that would be the LEAST amount ot
money) for a Mac, just to own a machine that still is slower than what I
would get from upgrading my current machine (which would cost me 500 Euros
max.), is ridiculous.

I never had too much stability problems apart from the times where I was
testing a new beta or some new VST plugin either.
Call me a poor dude, OK, I am. I simply can't afford any Mac that would
deliver even the same performance that I am getting with my current machine
(an Athlon 1GHz).
Yes, it's that easy for me. I just can't afford it, period. Maybe I could if
it was for Logic only, but there's a whole bunch of apps I use regularly
that don't even exist on Macs. So I'd have to get at least some replacements
(if there are any).

And that's just it.
Simple and sad - but still true. I will continue using what I have for a
while (maybe even for a long while), but Cubase SX sure looks more tempting
than any Mac at the moment. At least in the long run.

Regards,
Sascha

----- Original Message -----

From: "Sascha Franck" <saschafranck@...>


> If you know me, you will also know that I am one of the most loyal Logic
> supporters.
> But shelling out around 2500 Euros (and that would be the LEAST amount ot
> money) for a Mac, just to own a machine that still is slower than what I
> would get from upgrading my current machine (which would cost me 500 Euros
> max.), is ridiculous.
>
> I never had too much stability problems apart from the times where I was
> testing a new beta or some new VST plugin either.
> Call me a poor dude, OK, I am. I simply can't afford any Mac that would
> deliver even the same performance that I am getting with my current
machine
> (an Athlon 1GHz).
> Yes, it's that easy for me. I just can't afford it, period. Maybe I could
if
> it was for Logic only, but there's a whole bunch of apps I use regularly
> that don't even exist on Macs. So I'd have to get at least some
replacements
> (if there are any).
>
> And that's just it.
> Simple and sad - but still true. I will continue using what I have for a
> while (maybe even for a long while), but Cubase SX sure looks more
tempting
> than any Mac at the moment. At least in the long run.
>
> Regards,
> Sascha

This is sad. Sascha has been one of the best promoters and tutors on the LUG
for Emagic Logic since I have been a Logic user for over the last 2 1/2
years giving a great deal of his time for the cause. I have learned a great
deal thanks to his efforts...

I am also a Windows Logic user who has spent well over $2500US mostly in the
last few months on LAWP 5.0, a LC, and as well on most of the 'instrument
add-ons' that are unfortunately embedded within LAxx and cannot be used with
any other sequencer as say a VST instrument can. Unfortunately also the FX
that come with Logic are not usable with other sequencers due to their
binding within Logic. This investment that I just made would not have been
done if I knew that I would not be able to keep up with future updates to
stay current. Just think of all the enhancements that have been added to
Logic over the last year. Logic 5.0 will become obsolete very quickly when
Logic 6.0 is launched sometime is the near future.

As Windows users, now we are told we now must give large additional monies
to the company who just made this transistion possible if we want to
continue on. I feel like we are being held hostage by Apple. No problem with
your computers, Mac users. Lets not get started again with how Apple stacks
up against the PC. I understand that Apple has a very good computer and has
great software. And thanks to Emagic for making great software products.

The main overall subject on the LUG for us Window's users over the last few
days somehow changed from stating our displeasure in this matter to 'come on
in, the water's fine' from several of the Apple users here. I state this
here on the ESX list since apparently much of our free speech is being
sensored on the LUG by the moderators due to overwhelming talk of the pluses
and minuses over these two operating systems. This is not reflecting in
anyway the great work that these moderators on the LUG have been doing and
continue to perform. They are highly respected for putting up with all the
recent additional bandwidth.

The main beef here for me is Apple stating 'Ha, give us a great deal of more
money if you want to use Logic in the future'. We Windows users have sent
(to effectively now Apple) the same amount of money for continued support as
the MAC users for 5.0 but are all of a sudden we are being singled out to
send additional money all over again.

I know that they are offering the free software upgrades. But somehow new
hardware investments for the Windows users is needed for the software to be
usable...


Danny

I am a Mac user, but the plight of the PC Logic users out there is very,
very saddening to me. I will certainly miss the contributions of all the PC
guys and gals out there! I really feel for you. Even the fate of Logic Mac
users lies in question. But I'm not too worried about us. I'm more concerned
from my PC brethren. -Jer

PS: I have many PC constituents who are going to move to Cubase. There goes
my cross-platform community of musicians. A very sad day indeed.

I'm more concerned
FOR my PC brethren. (woops)

I'm in the same boat as Sascha. I have invested more in PC related
software then that which I can run on a Mac. As much as I would love to
use a Mac for my audio work, I am tied into the PC and cannot afford to
buy a replacement machine such as the Mac.
 
I have already made enquiries about cross grading to Cubase SX, I have
taken a look at this software and I think it will deliver what most of
us PC Logic users want. The thing it cannot replace is the many, many
hours and experience gained using Logic.
 
I have decided that I am going to order SX, as the 300Eur is a very good
price and it will work out cheaper for me in the long run. Just a pity
that Steinberg are not doing the same cross grade deal for the EXS24 to
HALion product.
 
Regards
Terry

-----Original Message-----
From: Sascha Franck [mailto:saschafranck@...] 
Sent: 05 July 2002 00:11
To: exs-users@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [exs] Logic on a mac


If you know me, you will also know that I am one of the most loyal Logic
supporters.
But shelling out around 2500 Euros (and that would be the LEAST amount
ot
money) for a Mac, just to own a machine that still is slower than what I
would get from upgrading my current machine (which would cost me 500
Euros
max.), is ridiculous.

I never had too much stability problems apart from the times where I was
testing a new beta or some new VST plugin either.
Call me a poor dude, OK, I am. I simply can't afford any Mac that would
deliver even the same performance that I am getting with my current
machine
(an Athlon 1GHz).
Yes, it's that easy for me. I just can't afford it, period. Maybe I
could if
it was for Logic only, but there's a whole bunch of apps I use regularly
that don't even exist on Macs. So I'd have to get at least some
replacements
(if there are any).

And that's just it.
Simple and sad - but still true. I will continue using what I have for a
while (maybe even for a long while), but Cubase SX sure looks more
tempting
than any Mac at the moment. At least in the long run.

Regards,
Sascha



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

<< I have already made enquiries about cross grading to Cubase SX, I have
 taken a look at this software and I think it will deliver what most of
 us PC Logic users want. The thing it cannot replace is the many, many
 hours and experience gained using Logic.>>

does it mean that Logic 5 for PC is gonna stop working on setember 30? i 
think Logic 5 is a great tool for writing/recording music and will be for a 
long time even if Apple/Emagic decide not to carry on the development.... i 
know a few producers that still run Notator on Atari and make a living out of 
it....

----- Original Message -----

From: "Sascha Franck" <saschafranck@...>
To: <exs-users@yahoogroups.com>


> If you know me, you will also know that I am one of the most loyal Logic
> supporters.
> But shelling out around 2500 Euros (and that would be the LEAST amount ot
> money) for a Mac, just to own a machine that still is slower than what I
> would get from upgrading my current machine (which would cost me 500 Euros
> max.), is ridiculous.
Sacha - I dont want to get into this whole debate as I do agree the currnet
situation is unfortunate. However, check out second had prices where you
are. I bought a good s/h mac a year ago so I could run logic on its own
machine - My mac cost me 600 UKP (approx 900 euros) for a good G3 with SCSI
card and several SCSI drives and a CDR.

I still do some audio processing on the seperate PC that I now keep for
email & games away from the logic machine. This works well for me - maybe
this could be an option that might help you? Ok you wont get the latest
greatest dual-1GHz mac, but its the same in the PC world to be fair. You buy
the latest top CPU and MOBO and itll still cost you (e.g. 2.4G P4 = 350UKP +
mobo = 120UKP == approx 470UKP == approx 650 euros) Life behind the cutting
edge is always most economical.

Best Wishes,

~Pev


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @... address at http://mail.yahoo.com

i am also making the switch to sx.  out of curiosity, does anyone know of
the best email discussion list for cubase?

-reid

---------------------------------
brownboy@...
415.377.4056
http://www.orangeage.com/brownboy
http://www.orangeage.com/reidoda
---------------------------------

On Fri, 5 Jul 2002, Sascha Franck wrote:

> If you know me, you will also know that I am one of the most loyal Logic
> supporters.
> But shelling out around 2500 Euros (and that would be the LEAST amount ot
> money) for a Mac, just to own a machine that still is slower than what I
> would get from upgrading my current machine (which would cost me 500 Euros
> max.), is ridiculous.
>
> I never had too much stability problems apart from the times where I was
> testing a new beta or some new VST plugin either.
> Call me a poor dude, OK, I am. I simply can't afford any Mac that would
> deliver even the same performance that I am getting with my current machine
> (an Athlon 1GHz).
> Yes, it's that easy for me. I just can't afford it, period. Maybe I could if
> it was for Logic only, but there's a whole bunch of apps I use regularly
> that don't even exist on Macs. So I'd have to get at least some replacements
> (if there are any).
>
> And that's just it.
> Simple and sad - but still true. I will continue using what I have for a
> while (maybe even for a long while), but Cubase SX sure looks more tempting
> than any Mac at the moment. At least in the long run.
>
> Regards,
> Sascha
>
>
>
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send a blank email to:
>    exs-users-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> For a list of places to get free samples please see:
>    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/exs-users/links/
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Couldn't agree more with your sentiments Sascha.....it really stinks bad.

I have a hard time seeing how this is ultimately going to be positive. Cross 
platform compatibility has become a way of life for many, and that will begin 
to evaporate.

Good luck with SX.

best,

EP
In a message dated 7/4/02 4:12:47 PM, saschafranck@... writes:

>If you know me, you will also know that I am one of the most loyal Logic
>supporters.
>But shelling out around 2500 Euros (and that would be the LEAST amount
>ot
>money) for a Mac, just to own a machine that still is slower than what
>I
>would get from upgrading my current machine (which would cost me 500 Euros
>max.), is ridiculous.
>
>I never had too much stability problems apart from the times where I was
>testing a new beta or some new VST plugin either.
>Call me a poor dude, OK, I am. I simply can't afford any Mac that would
>deliver even the same performance that I am getting with my current machine
>(an Athlon 1GHz).
>Yes, it's that easy for me. I just can't afford it, period. Maybe I could
>if
>it was for Logic only, but there's a whole bunch of apps I use regularly
>that don't even exist on Macs. So I'd have to get at least some replacements
>(if there are any).
>
>And that's just it.
>Simple and sad - but still true. I will continue using what I have for
>a
>while (maybe even for a long while), but Cubase SX sure looks more tempting
>than any Mac at the moment. At least in the long run.
>
>Regards,
>Sascha
>
>
>
>
>
>
>To unsubscribe from this group, send a blank email to:
>   exs-users-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>For a list of places to get free samples please see:
>   http://groups.yahoo.com/group/exs-users/links/
>
>
>
> 
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
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>Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 01:10:42 +0200
>Subject: Re: [exs] Logic on a mac
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No Such User wrote:
> Sacha - I dont want to get into this whole debate as I do agree the
currnet
> situation is unfortunate. However, check out second had prices where you
> are. I bought a good s/h mac a year ago so I could run logic on its own
> machine - My mac cost me 600 UKP (approx 900 euros) for a good G3 with
SCSI
> card and several SCSI drives and a CDR.

Pev, that was certainly one of the things I considered.
But even then I'd still need to run a PC in addition, even linked through
MIDI, Audio and a network. Such a second hand Mac wouldn't even halfway
deliver the computing power that I need. So I'd need to use Cubase on my PC
as a VSTi host. And of course I don't need to tell you about the additional
troubles this would lead to (double saved files, double KB, mouse, maybe
even a third monitor, some additional MIDI/audio interface, etc etc).
I am indeed thinking about something like a powerbook as I allways wanted a
mobile solution as well - but that's lightyears away, especially as it had
to be a reasonable one as well.

>  Ok you wont get the latest
> greatest dual-1GHz mac, but its the same in the PC world to be fair. You
buy
> the latest top CPU and MOBO and itll still cost you (e.g. 2.4G P4 = 350UKP
+
> mobo = 120UKP == approx 470UKP == approx 650 euros) Life behind the
cutting
> edge is always most economical.

See, my current machine is an Athlon 1GHz. Made of well chosen components. I
will only have to echange mainboard, CPU and Ram and that PC will become an
Athlon XP 2000+. Tests have been proven (Logic tests) that this machine
should deliver a similar (if not slightly better) performance like a Dual
1GHz Mac. Total costs of that modification: 500 Euros (maybe even less). I
am not kidding or dreaming or whatever.
Next year I wanted buy a completely new computer, with 4GHz Opteron CPUs
coming ahead. At least that's what my plan was until monday.
I seriously can't see myself shelling out 3000 Euro for a Mac, not at all,
at least not in the foreseeable future. I know that once you're done with
the burden of the initial costs, Macs offer relatively good upgrade paths
too, especially because you can still get good prices for older machines.
But that still doesn't make it anymore affordable for me.

Also, I really have a LOT of things (especially plugins) that I'm using on a
daily base (most important ones: DR-008, Pentagon) and there's no Mac
versions of them.

In the end, I will update my current machine anyways (next thing I will
spend some money for) and have some fun with it.

Don't misunderstand me, I am not in panic mood or so at all.
I just know that I can do some nice things with what I have, Logic 5.2
certainly is the best choice for me, and it will stay like that for quite
some time. Especially on my updated "VRROOAAAM"-ing PC. Also, Emagic won't
stop supporting it immediately after Sept.30th., there's just no new
versions to be expected, but we'll still see bugfixes for quite a while
after that date.
In the long run, I will of course have to look for some alternatives - all
that "you can even do nice music on an Atari" doesn't apply to me. I am
allready working 100% natively, and apart from some reverb I will never buy
any external sound gear again in all my life (well, uhm, maybe another dozen
of guitars and amps in addition to those I allready have... ;-). So I want
to stay up to date with what's hot in native audio processing. And there's
gonna be one day LAW won't allow me to do that anymore.

If my next big step will be Cubase or a Mac - only time will tell. I
allready tried out SX in the shop, and while it still sucks ergonomically
(Logic is simply unbeatable at that) it surely has some fantastic features,
such as saveable mixer scenarios (individual channels, a bunch of them or
the complete setup), build in beat slicing and what not. I will buy that
anyways as I can update my old VST 3 version for 199 Euro only. Of course
I'll loose all the kickass Emagic instruments, that's indeed my major
concern, but I will have to buy Kontakt some day anyways (as it's just
great), allready have HAlion (even if I don't like it much at all) and the
EXSP (that I allready have) will make it easier too.

Anyways, no need to panic right now.

Cheers,
Sascha

--- Sascha Franck <saschafranck@...> wrote: 
> See, my current machine is an Athlon 1GHz. Made of well chosen components.
> I
> will only have to echange mainboard, CPU and Ram and that PC will become an
> Athlon XP 2000+. Tests have been proven (Logic tests) that this machine
> should deliver a similar (if not slightly better) performance like a Dual
> 1GHz Mac. Total costs of that modification: 500 Euros (maybe even less). I
> am not kidding or dreaming or whatever.
I'm always dubious of the tests people use to compare - I'd love to see some
documented tests say, using a complex arrangement of audiotracks, plugins and
VSTi's on PC's and macs of different specs as I cant help but think most of
peoples opinions about comparative performance are not much better than
supposition. Thats not to say I'm voting one way or the other, but that it
would be interesting. Maybe I ought to try and do some for my website...

> I seriously can't see myself shelling out 3000 Euro for a Mac, not at all,
Neither could I if in the same position! I agree that Apple hardware is not 
cheap. 

> Also, I really have a LOT of things (especially plugins) that I'm using on
> a
> daily base (most important ones: DR-008, Pentagon) and there's no Mac
> versions of them.
I agree with this as a problem too (I'd have liked to get DR-008 myself) but
a word of consolation from the other side of the fence - thats a two edged
sword. For example, PC users have never had the joy of SuperCollider, 
Max/MSP, th0nk 0+2, Metasynth, AudioMulch, SoundHack, Cellsynth and until 
recently Absynth....

> Don't misunderstand me, I am not in panic mood or so at all.
> I just know that I can do some nice things with what I have, Logic 5.2
> certainly is the best choice for me, and it will stay like that for quite
> some time. Especially on my updated "VRROOAAAM"-ing PC. Also, Emagic won't
> stop supporting it immediately after Sept.30th., there's just no new
> versions to be expected, but we'll still see bugfixes for quite a while
> after that date.
:-) Its nice to see someone being rational for a change! The number of people
on the LUG that have purportedly *already* changed to SX this week (!) is
just wierd. Although whether they have just picked up a crack CD and changed
from a logic crack to an SX crack I dont know...!

Best Wishes & Good luck!

~Pev

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Everything you'll ever need on one web page
from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts
http://uk.my.yahoo.com

I can't believe anyone expects that PC users will NOT to make the move.
I don't think Apple have taken this decision to immediately sell more MACs.
I suspect they feel that they can develop Logic faster and better if they
concentrate on one platform. The cost and effort of providing Windows ports
is probably holding back their development. This move will definitely be
beneficial to MAC Users for Version 6. Whether it is enough to make people
move from a PC platform will depend greatly on how the competitive Windows
platforms evolve.

My guess is that the standard App that will be adopted by studios in the
future, will be one that supports both environments with the widest user
base (and maybe even a Linux port) - Logic will have to remain significantly
better than the competition to survive as a MAC only app.

People who were angriest at the announcement were people who had most
definitely paid (and paid handsomely) for their copy of Logic, or the recent
upgrade (mine cost 110 GBP - the SX cross grade only costs 190 GBP) - People
who use illegal software are unlikely to feel as passionate about it. IF we
had known this was in the pipeline, many PC users would not have bought the
software, - and IF we hadn't already moved to V5, the current offer from
Steinberg would make it an absolute no brainer.

 -----Original Message-----
From: Pev [mailto:no_such_user@...]
Sent: 05 July 2002 11:22
To: exs-users@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [exs] Logic on a mac


  --- Sascha Franck <saschafranck@...> wrote:
  > See, my current machine is an Athlon 1GHz. Made of well chosen
components.
  > I
  > will only have to echange mainboard, CPU and Ram and that PC will become
an
  > Athlon XP 2000+. Tests have been proven (Logic tests) that this machine
  > should deliver a similar (if not slightly better) performance like a
Dual
  > 1GHz Mac. Total costs of that modification: 500 Euros (maybe even less).
I
  > am not kidding or dreaming or whatever.
  I'm always dubious of the tests people use to compare - I'd love to see
some
  documented tests say, using a complex arrangement of audiotracks, plugins
and
  VSTi's on PC's and macs of different specs as I cant help but think most
of
  peoples opinions about comparative performance are not much better than
  supposition. Thats not to say I'm voting one way or the other, but that it
  would be interesting. Maybe I ought to try and do some for my website...

  > I seriously can't see myself shelling out 3000 Euro for a Mac, not at
all,
  Neither could I if in the same position! I agree that Apple hardware is
not
  cheap.

  > Also, I really have a LOT of things (especially plugins) that I'm using
on
  > a
  > daily base (most important ones: DR-008, Pentagon) and there's no Mac
  > versions of them.
  I agree with this as a problem too (I'd have liked to get DR-008 myself)
but
  a word of consolation from the other side of the fence - thats a two edged
  sword. For example, PC users have never had the joy of SuperCollider,
  Max/MSP, th0nk 0+2, Metasynth, AudioMulch, SoundHack, Cellsynth and until
  recently Absynth....

  > Don't misunderstand me, I am not in panic mood or so at all.
  > I just know that I can do some nice things with what I have, Logic 5.2
  > certainly is the best choice for me, and it will stay like that for
quite
  > some time. Especially on my updated "VRROOAAAM"-ing PC. Also, Emagic
won't
  > stop supporting it immediately after Sept.30th., there's just no new
  > versions to be expected, but we'll still see bugfixes for quite a while
  > after that date.
  :-) Its nice to see someone being rational for a change! The number of
people
  on the LUG that have purportedly *already* changed to SX this week (!) is
  just wierd. Although whether they have just picked up a crack CD and
changed
  from a logic crack to an SX crack I dont know...!

  Best Wishes & Good luck!

  ~Pev

  __________________________________________________
  Do You Yahoo!?
  Everything you'll ever need on one web page
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

No Such User wrote:
> 
> > If you know me, you will also know that I am one of the most loyal Logic
> > supporters.
> > But shelling out around 2500 Euros (and that would be the LEAST amount ot
> > money) for a Mac, just to own a machine that still is slower than what I
> > would get from upgrading my current machine (which would cost me 500 Euros
> > max.), is ridiculous.
> Sacha - I dont want to get into this whole debate as I do agree the currnet
> situation is unfortunate. However, check out second had prices where you
> are. I bought a good s/h mac a year ago so I could run logic on its own
> machine - My mac cost me 600 UKP (approx 900 euros) for a good G3 with SCSI
> card and several SCSI drives and a CDR.

I still run Logic on a 7300/200. Still great for MIDI, but I only get
about 12 tracks of audio playback, and not many plug-ins. But y'can
easily pick up a 7300/200 for AU$180 (= 100 Euros).

Sure, but you have to look at the longevity of the product. If Steinberg
are offering a cross grade up to the end of September for a very reduced
price surly its a good idea to have this as an option.
 
 
Terry

-----Original Message-----
From: ruipacheco@... [mailto:ruipacheco@...] 
Sent: 05 July 2002 08:44
To: exs-users@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [exs] Logic on a mac


<< I have already made enquiries about cross grading to Cubase SX, I
have
taken a look at this software and I think it will deliver what most of
us PC Logic users want. The thing it cannot replace is the many, many
hours and experience gained using Logic.>>

does it mean that Logic 5 for PC is gonna stop working on setember 30? i

think Logic 5 is a great tool for writing/recording music and will be
for a 
long time even if Apple/Emagic decide not to carry on the
development.... i 
know a few producers that still run Notator on Atari and make a living
out of 
it....



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In exs-users@y..., Pev <no_such_user@y...> wrote:
> I'm always dubious of the tests people use to compare - I'd love to
see some
> documented tests say, using a complex arrangement of audiotracks,
plugins and
> VSTi's on PC's and macs of different specs as I cant help but think
most of
> peoples opinions about comparative performance are not much better than
> supposition. 

They've been mentioned before, but check out the tests that the German
Keyboards magazine (AMD vs Intel vs Apple) did that were reproduced in
Sound on Sound:

http://www.sospubs.co.uk/sos/jul02/articles/qa0702.asp

OK they don't actually use Logic, but they do use audio
software/plug-ins, and unlike pretty much all the other comparisons
I've come across, they don't use Photoshop or just compare raw CPU
speeds (measured in megahertz, megaflops, SPECint or whatever) -
neither of which are "fair" or even relevent.

--- In exs-users@y..., "robbmasters" <robb@n...> wrote:
> They've been mentioned before [...]

Though in hindsight, possibly not on *this* list!

Hi folks
When I load a sound from an EXS or Akai library, one shot works as I 
expect it to, i.e. when checked the sample plays through to the end, 
and when not checked stops playing on key release.  But when I make 
an instrument myself, in this case from .aiff files, all the samples 
play through to the end even when one shot is unchecked. Is there 
something else affecting this, or is it a glitchette? Regards Brian


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> Hi folks
> When I load a sound from an EXS or Akai library, one shot works as I
> expect it to, i.e. when checked the sample plays through to the end,
> and when not checked stops playing on key release.  But when I make
> an instrument myself, in this case from .aiff files, all the samples
> play through to the end even when one shot is unchecked. Is there
> something else affecting this, or is it a glitchette? Regards Brian

There's nothing wrong with your system. You just have to put the EXS ADSR
RELEASE to ZERO. By default the release is about half way open, long enough
to burn through most drum sounds. Close it all the way and your drums won't
sound like the one-shot is on anymore. -Jer

--- In exs-users@y..., "robbmasters" <robb@n...> wrote:

> They've been mentioned before, but check out the tests that the 
> German Keyboards magazine (AMD vs Intel vs Apple) did that were 
> reproduced in Sound on Sound:

> http://www.sospubs.co.uk/sos/jul02/articles/qa0702.asp

Another factor is the recent appearance of DDR (Double Data Rate)
memory.
A DDR memory thing includes two arrays of memory chips, which respond 
oppositely to up and down clock pulses, so although the components  
AFAIK aren't necessarily much faster than normal RAM, a block of DDR 
memory can still transfer data at twice the speed (like two little 
pistons going up and down in antiphase!). So if your 133 motherboard 
takes DDR memory, you get an effective memory speed of 266.

I saw this running on a friend's home-built system which was 
essentially the same as mine, except his motherboard had DDR memory, 
and his machine was a /lot/ faster than mine. Just watching it boot 
up was like ... woo, what the hell's going on here???
So I upgraded my  motherboard too to one that was slightly later and 
used DDR, and again, the performance went way up (same processor, OS, 
etc).

Was looking around at mac prices in the shops today because of the 
Apple/emagic takeover, and apparently none of these top-end 133-bus 
G4s yet support DDR memory except on their graphics boards, so for me 
switching to a mac would probably involve spending two grand to get a 
machine that was significantly slower than what I currently have.

Maybe when Apple have cleared their current stock we might see some 
faster DDR-equipped G4's, dunno.

:-(

=Erk=
Disclaimer: I am not really a mac person

> Was looking around at mac prices in the shops today because of the
> Apple/emagic takeover, and apparently none of these top-end 133-bus
> G4s yet support DDR memory except on their graphics boards, so for me
> switching to a mac would probably involve spending two grand to get a
> machine that was significantly slower than what I currently have.
> 
> Maybe when Apple have cleared their current stock we might see some
> faster DDR-equipped G4's, dunno.

Great discussion. To be honest, as a Mac owner, things are getting mighty
depressing. Apple used to be on the cutting edge in performance. Now Apple
seems to use the most outdated components around (besides their terrific
video card thanks to Nvidia). If they fall much further behind (even if I do
prefer the OS), it just won't be worth it anymore. In fact, it's pretty much
at that point now. If I wasn't a graphic designer, I think I'd seriously
consider converting my music production studio over to PC and build a
dual-processer 2.5Ghz WinXP system. I'll be honest, I really dislike
Windows, but if Apple is going to continue to deny that megahertz are
important while they get buried in real world test after test, I believe
they'll lose a lot of faithful users. I can get around on a PC just fine if
I must. If they keep pushing the Mac faithfuls into a performance corner,
they'll really start losing money fast. Let's see what happens at Mac Expo.
For the time being, my dual-800 G4 is doing very well and I'm an avid fan of
Logic, so let's see how I feel 6 months or a year from now. -Jer

From what I hear about the new hardware that will be introduced...don't get 
your hopes up too much. Sounds like it's gonna be a very small increase. I 
agree that it is incredibly frustrating to see how much more powerful PCs are 
now...and a tweaked XP system is very solid, fast and cheap. These machines 
handle way more voices for virtual instruments than Macs do, in the tests 
that I've done.

With the rumors of 3 and 4 ghz Intel/AMD machines....man, Apple has to play 
some serious catch up!

I guess the one bit of silver lining is that once Logic Titanium is fully 
OSX, multi-processor, altivec coded, we should see some serious performance 
and stability gains, even on the same hardware.

Here's hoping!

-EP

In a message dated 7/8/02 7:39:17 PM, HELP@... writes:

>Great discussion. To be honest, as a Mac owner, things are getting mighty
>depressing. Apple used to be on the cutting edge in performance. Now Apple
>seems to use the most outdated components around (besides their terrific
>video card thanks to Nvidia). If they fall much further behind (even if
>I do
>prefer the OS), it just won't be worth it anymore. In fact, it's pretty
>much
>at that point now. If I wasn't a graphic designer, I think I'd seriously
>consider converting my music production studio over to PC and build a
>dual-processer 2.5Ghz WinXP system. I'll be honest, I really dislike
>Windows, but if Apple is going to continue to deny that megahertz are
>important while they get buried in real world test after test, I believe
>they'll lose a lot of faithful users. I can get around on a PC just fine
>if
>I must. If they keep pushing the Mac faithfuls into a performance corner,
>they'll really start losing money fast. Let's see what happens at Mac Expo.
>For the time being, my dual-800 G4 is doing very well and I'm an avid fan
>of
>Logic, so let's see how I feel 6 months or a year from now. -Jer

PersingEP@... wrote:
> With the rumors of 3 and 4 ghz Intel/AMD machines....man, Apple has to
play
> some serious catch up!

That's what I seriously hope will happen - if they want to convince people
like me to switch platforms at all one day. And for the sake of Emagic, I
think it *must* happen. I mean, in the end, as soon as there is a
"competing" sequencer on Windows (SX seriously isn't, at least not yet),
more and more people will switch over to PCs, even in professional
environments.
Let's face it, virtual instruments and native effects have become a VERY
serious thing, now there's things that can easily compete with hardware 10
times as expensive, let alone the ease of handling with all the total recall
thing.
Then, I don't know if that is completely true or not (I'm not enough of an
expert), it seems that such 8x Opteron machines that we will see next year
will even run circles around fullblown PT systems, at least when it comes to
sheer performance numbers. And people will eventually start to code true
native high end effects as well, just because they don't have to care much
about CPU usage anymore.
My wild guess would be that quite some "pro" folks will simply buy a PC in
addition and run it as a VSTi or even as a mixing host, in addition to their
Macs. But I'd think that most smaller studios, especially home studios,
would still prefer having everything on a single machine - at least
personally I prefer that. No struggling with double saved files, no problems
with more than one mouse, keyboard, no monitor switching, no routings etc
etc.

> I guess the one bit of silver lining is that once Logic Titanium is fully
> OSX, multi-processor, altivec coded, we should see some serious
performance
> and stability gains, even on the same hardware.

I'd say so too. But do you really think it will even halfway deliver like
the double performance? This is what next years single CPU PCs should bring,
compared to, say, a dual 1GHz Mac.

Really, for me, as a person that - apart from a few minor things - most
likely will never buy a piece of external gear again, it's not only the
ridiculous price I'd have to pay for a Mac, it's also the "absolute"
performance. I just want the fastest machine (well, actually I allways buy
the second fastest things available, saves a LOT of money), yeah, it's that
simple.

Personally I can only hope that Apple is aware of that and therefor will
come up with some *affordable* solutions offering *enough* horsepower -
whatever that means. To me right now it more seems to be as if they were
sitting on some rather high "we are the platform for professional solutions"
horse.

But as usual, only time will tell.

Cheers,
Sascha

In a message dated 7/9/02 1:16:26 AM, saschafranck@... writes:

>
>I'd say so too. But do you really think it will even halfway deliver like
>the double performance? This is what next years single CPU PCs should bring,
>compared to, say, a dual 1GHz Mac.
>

Well...there is so little "real" performace increase from a single processor 
Mac with current Logic, and a dual processor. I heard it is something like 
MIDI and the Graphics are loaded to one processor? That's not the important 
stuff of course. We need native FX and instruments to be split between the 
processors to see the real increase. The only part of current Logic that is 
Altivec coded is the Mixer...what about all the effects and instruments. So 
yes, I think that the performance increase with tighter coding to Apple's OSX 
and taking advance of all of this stuff that's already in the Apple hardware.

Best case is that Emagic gets it more together like Reason is. It is amazing 
how processor efficient that program is! I never run out of CPU power, and 
you can have scads of instruments, effects, tracks playing...amazing. Since 
it obvious that lt CAN be done like the props have shown us, maybe emagic 
will have the opportunity to do this now with a big influx of cash, 
developers and focusing specifically on OSX only now.

It will be interesting to see for sure!

-EP

Best case is that Emagic gets it more together like Reason is. It is amazing
how processor efficient that program is! I never run out of CPU power, and
you can have scads of instruments, effects, tracks playing...amazing. Since
it obvious that lt CAN be done like the props have shown us, maybe emagic
will have the opportunity to do this now with a big influx of cash,
developers and focusing specifically on OSX only now.

It will be interesting to see for sure!
-EP
*****
yes,
this is the most interesting future of OSX finally ...
but , guys, don't you think we've got a strong CPU power already ?
it's time to make our capital grow :o)

igor

PersingEP@... wrote
> Well...there is so little "real" performace increase from a single
processor
> Mac with current Logic, and a dual processor. I heard it is something like
> MIDI and the Graphics are loaded to one processor? That's not the
important
> stuff of course.

Well, live inputs are handled by the second CPU as well. And in that
competition the dual 1GHz Mac indeed seems to smoke the competitors. So, for
all folks running external stuff into their multi-in cards that's a nice
solution.
Too bad us Win users won't see multi CPU support being implemented anymore -
I'd really be interested in a comparison.

> The only part of current Logic that is
> Altivec coded is the Mixer...what about all the effects and instruments.

Uhm... on Windows the optimizations for plugins (at least for some of them)
are allready there - delivering stunning increases in performance (for some
plugins it might be like 300-400% !!!). That's why I NEED that new
machine...

> Since
> it obvious that lt CAN be done like the props have shown us, maybe emagic
> will have the opportunity to do this now with a big influx of cash,
> developers and focusing specifically on OSX only now.
>
> It will be interesting to see for sure!

Defenitely. But hmm... what if some *other* company (there's allways some
rumours...) will do the same "hand-in-hand" development for Windows? Sure,
it's not of as much interest for M$ to do so as they have more things to
care about on their way to world domination than concentrating on music
support - but you never know.

Regards,
Sascha

> Defenitely. But hmm... what if some *other* company (there's allways some
> rumours...) will do the same "hand-in-hand" development for Windows? Sure,
> it's not of as much interest for M$ to do so as they have more things to
> care about on their way to world domination than concentrating on music
> support - but you never know.

MS will probably react soon. What if Steinberg also falls in Apple hands?


Andrea

--- PersingEP@... wrote: > 
> stuff of course. We need native FX and instruments to be split between the 
> processors to see the real increase. The only part of current Logic that is
> Altivec coded is the Mixer...what about all the effects and instruments. So
Errrr... Are you certain about this? ISTR that the native plugins were the
first thing to get the Altivec treatment being pretty much the most computa-
tionally intensive stuff in logic. Didnt people report greater numbers
of 'verbs after the altivec update? Thats not to say itll help one jot with
the Multi Processor issue. Only an OSX port will do that. Having had some 
experience with MP power when developing for the BeOS (Played with nuendo
on a DP Be Machine... wow!) I think that owners of MP boxen will get a very
pleasent surprise when the OSX version of Logic appears.

I think its a large coincidence that Apple bought Emagic, that everyones
waiting for a new Mac platform with lots of new features, and that its
MWNY in just over a week. I'm hoping for some revelations. If the rumors
were true and it were a perfect world, we'll see OSX10.2, Logic for OSX,
1.5GHz G4e PowerMacs, DDR Ram support, USB2 and a new enclosure with 
two 5 1/4" bays all being announced at MWNY.  Personally I only expect to
see 10.2 and Logic Titanium being released. But hey, I'm a dreamer...

~Pev
(excited as apparently his Logic 5/Gold update will *finally* appear on
his doorstep today or tomorrow. woot!)

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In a message dated 7/9/02 3:25:15 AM, no_such_user@... writes:

>> Altivec coded is the Mixer...what about all the effects and instruments.
>So
>Errrr... Are you certain about this? ISTR that the native plugins were
>the
>first thing to get the Altivec treatment being pretty much the most computa-
>tionally intensive stuff in logic. Didnt people report greater numbers
>of 'verbs after the altivec update? 

The Logic programmers themselves told me this info about Altivec being only 
the Mixer. AFAIK most of the plug-ins have not gotten altivec treatmeant and 
there are more XP optimizations on Windows at the moment for the plugs.

-EP

PersingEP@... wrote:

>
> Well...there is so little "real" performace increase from a single processor
> Mac with current Logic, and a dual processor. I heard it is something like
> MIDI and the Graphics are loaded to one processor? That's not the important
> stuff of course. We need native FX and instruments to be split between the
> processors to see the real increase.

Hi Eric,

The live inputs and the currently selected audio instrument ar also handled by
the second processor. George Leger posted a sweet little tip on the LUG as to
how to get them most out of the live inputs.

Physically connect the spare outputs of your audio interface to some spare
inputs. Then create live input objects for these inputs. The live inputs of
course have inserts. So insert processor intensive plugins in them (reverbs,
etc). The plugins, being instantiated on live inserts, will now be handled by
the second processor. And they will be accessible to your audio stream by
setting the output assignment of some busses to correspond with those physically
patched outputs. Then just send to those busses from your audio tracks's sends.
It's a sweet idea to maximize performance! I wish I had a DP Mac!!!


--
Eli Krantzberg
Nightshift Orchestra / Almat Productions
http://www.nightshiftorchestra.com

> patched outputs. Then just send to those busses from your audio tracks's
> sends.
> It's a sweet idea to maximize performance! I wish I had a DP Mac!!!

Thanks for this tip! -Jer

>> Well...there is so little "real" performace increase from a single processor
>> Mac with current Logic, and a dual processor. I heard it is something like
>> MIDI and the Graphics are loaded to one processor? That's not the important
>> stuff of course. We need native FX and instruments to be split between the
>> processors to see the real increase

Screen redraw and MIDI is also handled by the 2nd CPU as far as I know.
There are obvious increases in redraw speed versus when I disable dual
processor support. Absynth, an otherwise amazing synth, causes ASIO errors
when dual processor support is active. I've never seen compatibility
problems with other VST instruments. I hear a rumor that Absynth was being
updated to support dual chips as well... Jer

--- In exs-users@y..., PersingEP@a... wrote:
> Well...there is so little "real" performace increase from a single 
processor Mac with current Logic, and a dual processor. I heard it is 
something like MIDI and the Graphics are loaded to one processor? <

It depends where your system bottlenecks are. 
It might be that a system has run into a problem with memory access 
speed, and switching to DDR memory would make it fly, but adding a 
second processor just means that you now have two processors fighting 
over the same memory bandwidth that was already causing problems with 
one. 

I've found that my PC DDR system seems to cope with everything I 
throw at it irrespective of how many effects and instruments I've 
tried using, and as a result I've reorganised and have been selling 
off all my synthy hardware and soundcards so that absolutely 
everything ends up softinstrument-based. 

Unfortunately, after this reorganisation, if I switched to a lower-
powered machine I might not be able to get it all to work.
:-(

=Erk=

Nice tip!

Thanks for the info.

-EP
In a message dated 7/9/02 6:38:40 AM, elik@... writes:

>Hi Eric,
>
>The live inputs and the currently selected audio instrument ar also handled
>by
>the second processor. George Leger posted a sweet little tip on the LUG
>as to
>how to get them most out of the live inputs.
>
>Physically connect the spare outputs of your audio interface to some spare
>inputs. Then create live input objects for these inputs. The live inputs
>of
>course have inserts. So insert processor intensive plugins in them (reverbs,
>etc). The plugins, being instantiated on live inserts, will now be handled
>by
>the second processor. And they will be accessible to your audio stream
>by
>setting the output assignment of some busses to correspond with those 
physically

>patched outputs. Then just send to those busses from your audio tracks's
>sends.
>It's a sweet idea to maximize performance! I wish I had a DP Mac!!!

----- Original Message -----

From: <PersingEP@...>
To: <exs-users@yahoogroups.com>


> The Logic programmers themselves told me this info about Altivec being
only
> the Mixer. AFAIK most of the plug-ins have not gotten altivec treatmeant
and
> there are more XP optimizations on Windows at the moment for the plugs.
Ok, I stand corrected! :-) However an interesting read is at ;
  http://www.apple.com/creative/musicaudio/emagic/
I noticed the bit about :
  "Using DSP Optimization Technology (DOT) Logic Platinum 5 provides
  exceptional performance with the Power Mac G4 Velocity Engine. In general,
  DOT results in a doubling of the available CPU power if optimized modules
  in Logic are used. A number of the Logic Platinum 5 plug-ins are
  specifically optimized for the Power Mac G4 Velocity Engine. This allows
  a significant increase in the number of plug-in instances and voices which
  can be opened simultaneously."

Is this the available v5, or is it the forthcoming titanium version?

~Pev


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
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> Is this the available v5, or is it the forthcoming titanium version?

Available in v5. Don't know for how much (or even which) plugins though. At
least the ES2 is optimized (and it needs that...).

Regards,
Sascha

Logic Users,

First of all if we are going to discuss the future of wimpy Mac CPUs and the
possibilities of big strong Intel CPUs to come, I am surprised that there is
not more talk here about the upcoming Motorola G5 chip, a 64 bit processor
coming in at 1.8 ghz. or so, with amazing power and 4 Altivec 'DSP' engines
on board, and spiffy multi-processing capabilities. We would have it now if
not for some problems Apple is dealing with with heat control, a typical
problem given all that is going on inside. Most Mac people are certain it
will be here within 6 months. I am looking to upgrade to this sort of
machine rather than get a G4. In two years we will be up around 5 ghz. We
all know this anyway given the history of computers.

The real issue here is not CPU power but OS X. There is vastly more power in
this OS than can be reached through "Carbonizing" existing OS 9
applications. The key here is the inter-operation between the apps that is
only possible with apps that are native to the OS rather than ported. In
software created in the native 'Cocoa' programming environment, a user can
borrow capabilities programmed in one app and import them into another. I
think most of us in the music field would find this a pretty amazing thing
to be able to do. Also in OS X, any audio or MIDI stream can be sent from
one App to another.  This sort of thing goes right beyond the amazing low
latency, Audio-objects, and the advantages of CoreAudio and CoreMIDI.  We
should think about these things more, especially if you are are Windows
user.

My impression is that Apple and Steve Jobs want to get at this multimedia
power as soon as possible and have the best people working on it right now.
All the big companies such as Emagic and Steinberg are taking a relatively
conservative approach to OS X precisely because they are cross platform
companies with Apps that are equally capable on each type of computer. Yes
this is good for collaboration, but this is not good for Apple. Apple people
are not interested in because the company can not afford to wait until
programmers finally figure out that native OS X might be a direction worth
taking, especially if this means that there will be a real and important
difference in capability between the two platforms. Cross platform software
tends to highlight differences in CPU power rather than any compelling
differences between the the operating systems. People tend to use the Mac OS
because file management is easier and less time is spent tweaking the system
rather than because the software performs significantly differently. This is
quite bad for Apple; perhaps the worst possible outcome for them. The people
at Apple need killer apps for OS X to make it utterly compelling compared to
anything else in the computer world. The killer apps will drive people to
buy the computer hardware no matter how fast the CPUs are at any given
moment compare to WinTel machines. This is what Apple needs in order to
survive. Final Cut Pro is indeed a model here (people buy Macs just for this
application alone) and Apple is looking for the same thing to happen in the
music field. They are also looking to integrate audio, video, and other
creative areas in one big, powerful combination. Something important has
happened in the film/video field for Apple because of this, where many OS X
apps work with Final Cut pro to provide a significantly enhanced computer
solution.

It is also important for everyone to realize that Apple is not finished in
this process in the music field. Emagic is only one of a number of music
companies that I believe are going to bought by Apple over the next few
months. My prediction - Native Instruments will be the next company to
become a Mac only music software producer. If buying Emagic seems
unbelievable, yet happened, there is nothing to suppose that Apple will not
make a similar move in the area of software synths. It makes sense, even
though Emagic makes great synths and samplers too. Perhaps Mac users should
even suggest this to Steve, our pal.

For Windows users, who of course feel outraged, it is important to
understand that Mr. Jobs does not give a damn about people who work in the
Windows world. He was the guy who did the most to create the kind of
machines we all work on (his ego certainly sees it that way) and yet his
company's intellectual property was profoundly violated by MicroSoft due to
some mistakes Apple made when they asked Bill Gates to create Word and Excel
(they were written first for the Mac) for the Mac back in the Mid 80's. They
gave the farm away without realizing it and it was not so much because Apple
was stupid, but because Bill Gates is such a crook.

Now Jobs wants to make the Mac the best platform for creative and innovative
computing by levering the object oriented UNIX power of OS X. He has only
just started on this process and the new OS 10.2 release is an indication of
the directions he and coworkers are considering taking. Remember too that
Steve jobs is of the opinion that computers are still "terrible". I think he
is right in that regard, Mac OS 9 included.

Apple has a lot of money in reserve and they are going to use it to protect
and expand their market in new and aggressive ways. When Jobs killed clones
in the Mac market there was similar screaming such as you hear on this list
from Windows Emagic users, and from Mac users too. Now everyone knows he had
to kill cloning to save the Mac. What you are seeing now is the start of an
extension of that strategy in a new and even more aggressive direction.
Perhaps Jobs has finally learned a thing or two from Bill Gates. Kill or be
killed.

Regards

Paul Nicholls

> From: PersingEP@...
> Reply-To: exs-users@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 01:33:29 -0400 (EDT)
> To: exs-users@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [exs] Logic on a mac
> 
> From what I hear about the new hardware that will be introduced...don't get
> your hopes up too much. Sounds like it's gonna be a very small increase. I
> agree that it is incredibly frustrating to see how much more powerful PCs are
> now...and a tweaked XP system is very solid, fast and cheap. These machines
> handle way more voices for virtual instruments than Macs do, in the tests
> that I've done.
> 
> With the rumors of 3 and 4 ghz Intel/AMD machines....man, Apple has to play
> some serious catch up!
> 
> I guess the one bit of silver lining is that once Logic Titanium is fully
> OSX, multi-processor, altivec coded, we should see some serious performance
> and stability gains, even on the same hardware.
> 
> Here's hoping!
> 
> -EP
> 
> In a message dated 7/8/02 7:39:17 PM, HELP@... writes:
> 
>> Great discussion. To be honest, as a Mac owner, things are getting mighty
>> depressing. Apple used to be on the cutting edge in performance. Now Apple
>> seems to use the most outdated components around (besides their terrific
>> video card thanks to Nvidia). If they fall much further behind (even if
>> I do
>> prefer the OS), it just won't be worth it anymore. In fact, it's pretty
>> much
>> at that point now. If I wasn't a graphic designer, I think I'd seriously
>> consider converting my music production studio over to PC and build a
>> dual-processer 2.5Ghz WinXP system. I'll be honest, I really dislike
>> Windows, but if Apple is going to continue to deny that megahertz are
>> important while they get buried in real world test after test, I believe
>> they'll lose a lot of faithful users. I can get around on a PC just fine
>> if
>> I must. If they keep pushing the Mac faithfuls into a performance corner,
>> they'll really start losing money fast. Let's see what happens at Mac Expo.
>> For the time being, my dual-800 G4 is doing very well and I'm an avid fan
>> of
>> Logic, so let's see how I feel 6 months or a year from now. -Jer
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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>

In a message dated 7/9/02 3:06:15 PM, saschafranck@... writes:

>Available in v5. Don't know for how much (or even which) plugins though.
>At
>least the ES2 is optimized (and it needs that...).

The hilarious thing is that you don't notice these optimizations as much, 
since the overall 5.0 upgrade is a DOWNGRADE in CPU performance. I've lost 
about 10% CPU resources after upgrading to version 5...they of course don't 
tell you what a hit the new automation system places on your CPU. (I still 
use 4.8 and 5.0 and I'vereally noticed that there is a big difference in CPU 
consumption). Probably not as much a problem for Windows users, but on the 
Mac 10% really hurts!

-EP

I don't think Emagic wanted to drop their Windows products.  I doubt 
Apple want to throw away the 70,000 Emagic Windows customers.  I'm 
also pretty sure they're not too bothered how many of those 70,000 
users go out and buy Mac hardware.  

I beleive Emagic overspent on R&D over the last two years and with 
the delayed income from from LC and v5.0 were struggling to pay the 
bills.  Along came Apple who said "Ok, we like what you do, we'll 
save you but your finances are in a mess and you must make 
efficiency savings".   They looked at spending and income and the 
Mac products turned out to be most profitable.  The Emagic guys had 
a simple choice - let the company fall or make the required savings 
and continue with Apple's money and under Apple's rules.

I'm a Windows user who was very upset at the news.  But I've calmed 
down a little!  5.2 will be fine for now but in the future there 
will be products (new Logic features / new instruments / new 
harware) that will Mac only.  Given that you end up upgrading your 
computer every 18 months or so anyway the obvious solution is to buy 
a Mac the next time rather than a new PC.  I'd rather do that than 
switch to another sequencer. 

G.

Paul Nicholls wrote:

>First of all if we are going to discuss the future of wimpy Mac CPUs and the
>possibilities of big strong Intel CPUs to come, I am surprised that there is
>not more talk here about the upcoming Motorola G5 chip, a 64 bit processor
>coming in at 1.8 ghz. or so, with amazing power and 4 Altivec 'DSP' engines
>on board, and spiffy multi-processing capabilities. We would have it now if
>not for some problems Apple is dealing with with heat control, a typical
>problem given all that is going on inside. Most Mac people are certain it
>will be here within 6 months. I am looking to upgrade to this sort of
>machine rather than get a G4. In two years we will be up around 5 ghz. We
>all know this anyway given the history of computers.

Perhaps -- perhaps not. The move to .13 micron fabrication process is being
handled a lot better by some foundries than others. The move to 90nm --
who knows how well that will go at Motorola? Five Ghz chips will probably
be on 90 or even 65nm process. 

Whether processors cut the mustard depends on how well they keep the engine
stoked with data and instructions. Spending cycles waiting for something to
work with leaves a fast processor engine spinning its wheels. 

If you have been following the PowerPC for a while you will remember the
much vaunted 620 processor that was up there on all the roadmaps. It was to
follow the 601 and the 604. Well what happened to the marvellous all
conquering PPC 620? It was a fizzer. The architecture did not actually
deliver the expected performance and it was junked after a fortune was
spent on it. Like Copland.

Motorola just kept ramping up the clockspeed on the 604 and the market had
to wait for the G3. The G4 wasn't meant to be stalled at 500 MHz for 18
months either. From the reports I have read it was stuck there because it's
pipeline was short and therfore benchmarks did not scale with increasing
clockspeed. Bad design -- back to the drawing board. Transmeta have been
incredibly late delivering their 130nm 1Ghz 5800  chip that was promised
for ages ago. Shit happens.

So what should all this tell you? --- don't believe the hype.  

Believe in reliable 3rd party benchmaring of real products -- not empty
boasts about vapour. 

The rest of your post is exactly the sort of Kool-Aid inspired crap that
has just been banned from the LUG. 

It has nothing to do with the EXS24. 

Why don't we give it a rest?

Regards,
M

At 10:21 AM 10/07/02 -0500, you wrote:
>> The rest of your post is exactly the sort of Kool-Aid inspired crap that
>> has just been banned from the LUG.
>> 
>> It has nothing to do with the EXS24.
>
>Down boy... but I agree with the rest of your points. 

Hi Jer,

Thanks for your other post. 

I  wrote that because I thought it is a little insensitive to post
advocating that Jobs move to shaft PC users even more than he already has. 

I really like the whole cross platform thing. I really like that we are a
group of people with a shared interest -- who despite being spread all over
the world are able to share information and help each other in our
work/creative pursuits. I couldn't care less what platform floats your boat.

The points in the post I was referring to about M$ stealing the GUI from
Mac  --they don't hold water. There is a GUI like the Xerox/Windows/Mac GUI
on every operating system for the last 10 - 12 years -- Unix had X-Windows
etc , Linux has several, GEM was available on PC and other 680x0 platforms.
Xerox PARC invented the GUI it in the first place. As Steve Jobs once said:
"Good ideas are copied; the best ideas are stolen." 

M$ cut a few corners in developing their GUI -- what is the effect of that?
Bugger all. They could have bought GEM -- they would have got a Xerox style
GUI from somewhere. Coding Word for it would have been more work that's
all. There was no other option than to develop a modern graphical interface. 

OS/2 2.0 had it's own GUI in this style in 1992 so if it wasn't Windows
sweeping all before it in the 90's,  it would have been OS/2.  If OS/2 had
ended up on top, M$ would have still been in partnership with IBM --
therefore no Apple-IBM-Motorola troika. PowerPC was largely the IBM Power
architecture with a few minor Motorola bits tacked on. Where would Apple be
now if M$ hadn't ratted on IBM?

My Point?  The idea that any of this ancient history is a moral
justification for shafting musicians who use PC hardware is rubbish..

>This list is notorious
>for OT subject matter. I've often thought of the list name as a misnomer. It
>seems more like a group of talented people who talk about whatever it is
>they want to talk about it. I'm not a member of LUG, nor do I have a desire
>to be. I like this list for what it has been over the last year. A forum of
>pro users who talk about all the issues affecting such a niche. Admittedly,
>however, the Logic/Mac/PC has dominated our collective psyche lately.

That is interesting -- that you aren't on the LUG. The LUG has been a
train-wreck since the announcement and the moderators have been deluged by
2500+ messages. The LUG descended into a huge platform war the like of
which we have never seen. This move by Apple has split what has been a
fairly harmonious community. The Moderators have taken a stand in the last
couple of days explicitly banning this stuff.

Below I have pasted what they posted to the LUG.

Regards,
Murray
__________________________________

Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 01:27:35 -0000 

From: "lug_moderators" <lug_moderators@...> 
Subject: [ADMIN] Our New Moderation Policy
Due to the extremely volatile situation lately here on the LUG, 
an abnormal amount of platform wars have been started. Because 
of this, Windows "PCs" and Macintoshes will no longer be 
directly compared on this list, as this just creates a never 
ending debate. As of right now, *any* message that argues Mac 
vs. PC will either be rejected, or edited by the admins to 
remove the offensive comments. We will also edit or reject any 
messages that are even *likely* to start yet another Mac vs. 
PC debate, -or- are generally inflammatory in nature and non 
constructive. Please be careful what you post!
It is unfortunate that we have had to take such drastic 
measures, but the moderating team has been overwhelmed by the 
flood of messages debating platforms, and this cannot continue. 
For what it is worth, we moderators are an even mix of Mac and 
Windows users, so no means is this a decision biased because of 
the individual platform we happen to use. Everyone has had a 
full week now to express their opinions on Apple buying Emagic, 
as well as explain exactly why or why not switching to a Mac 
may or may not be a good idea, so there really is no point in 
repeating what has already been said many times before. 
We will eventually remove this "rule", so by no means will this 
be effect forever - just until everything calms down in a few 
weeks or months or however long it takes. We are very much 
looking forward to returning to a more casual moderation 
policy, but that's just not possible right now. On the other 
hand, advice on choosing PC or Mac hardware is still more than 
welcome, as is comparisons between Logic and other sequencers. 
This group is an invaluable resource to over 8,000 of us now, 
using both platforms, and that we are only trying to keep it 
that way. 
Thanks for your understanding, 
the LUG Moderators

> The rest of your post is exactly the sort of Kool-Aid inspired crap that
> has just been banned from the LUG.
> 
> It has nothing to do with the EXS24.

Down boy... but I agree with the rest of your points. This list is notorious
for OT subject matter. I've often thought of the list name as a misnomer. It
seems more like a group of talented people who talk about whatever it is
they want to talk about it. I'm not a member of LUG, nor do I have a desire
to be. I like this list for what it has been over the last year. A forum of
pro users who talk about all the issues affecting such a niche. Admittedly,
however, the Logic/Mac/PC has dominated our collective psyche lately.

Murray,

You have highlighted the fact that Motorola is a poorly managed company.
Apple is entirely aware of this and has long been frustrated by their
connections there. The question is what can Apple do to maintain a strong
company while they have such a problem with their CPU supplier? I think they
are trying to create something with their OS that is different and
compelling and this might be one explanation of the take over of Emagic and
other companies.

Regards

Paul

> From: Murray McDowall <murraymc@...>
> Reply-To: exs-users@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 23:27:15 +1000
> To: exs-users@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [exs] Some reasons why Steve Jobs bought Emagic
> 
> Paul Nicholls wrote:
> 
>> First of all if we are going to discuss the future of wimpy Mac CPUs and the
>> possibilities of big strong Intel CPUs to come, I am surprised that there is
>> not more talk here about the upcoming Motorola G5 chip, a 64 bit processor
>> coming in at 1.8 ghz. or so, with amazing power and 4 Altivec 'DSP' engines
>> on board, and spiffy multi-processing capabilities. We would have it now if
>> not for some problems Apple is dealing with with heat control, a typical
>> problem given all that is going on inside. Most Mac people are certain it
>> will be here within 6 months. I am looking to upgrade to this sort of
>> machine rather than get a G4. In two years we will be up around 5 ghz. We
>> all know this anyway given the history of computers.
> 
> Perhaps -- perhaps not. The move to .13 micron fabrication process is being
> handled a lot better by some foundries than others. The move to 90nm --
> who knows how well that will go at Motorola? Five Ghz chips will probably
> be on 90 or even 65nm process.
> 
> Whether processors cut the mustard depends on how well they keep the engine
> stoked with data and instructions. Spending cycles waiting for something to
> work with leaves a fast processor engine spinning its wheels.
> 
> If you have been following the PowerPC for a while you will remember the
> much vaunted 620 processor that was up there on all the roadmaps. It was to
> follow the 601 and the 604. Well what happened to the marvellous all
> conquering PPC 620? It was a fizzer. The architecture did not actually
> deliver the expected performance and it was junked after a fortune was
> spent on it. Like Copland.
> 
> Motorola just kept ramping up the clockspeed on the 604 and the market had
> to wait for the G3. The G4 wasn't meant to be stalled at 500 MHz for 18
> months either. From the reports I have read it was stuck there because it's
> pipeline was short and therfore benchmarks did not scale with increasing
> clockspeed. Bad design -- back to the drawing board. Transmeta have been
> incredibly late delivering their 130nm 1Ghz 5800  chip that was promised
> for ages ago. Shit happens.
> 
> So what should all this tell you? --- don't believe the hype.
> 
> Believe in reliable 3rd party benchmaring of real products -- not empty
> boasts about vapour.
> 
> The rest of your post is exactly the sort of Kool-Aid inspired crap that
> has just been banned from the LUG.
> 
> It has nothing to do with the EXS24.
> 
> Why don't we give it a rest?
> 
> Regards,
> M
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To unsubscribe from this group, send a blank email to:
> exs-users-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> For a list of places to get free samples please see:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/exs-users/links/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
>

Gordon,

Emagic very likely did not want to drop their Windows products but all the
other companies that Apple took over dropped their Windows products too. I
think it is part of a pattern that will likely continue. In fact, if the
pattern does not continue I do not see any point in it.

What you are highlighting is that fact that Emagic was vulnerable. Frankly
the fact that Mackie put out a MOTU version of Logic Control is another
example of how Emagic got screwed recently.

Regards

Paul

> From: gordonmurrison <gordon.murrison@...>
> Reply-To: exs-users@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 11:26:05 +0000
> To: exs-users@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [exs] Re: Some reasons why Steve Jobs bought Emagic
> 
> I don't think Emagic wanted to drop their Windows products.  I doubt
> Apple want to throw away the 70,000 Emagic Windows customers.  I'm
> also pretty sure they're not too bothered how many of those 70,000
> users go out and buy Mac hardware.
> 
> I beleive Emagic overspent on R&D over the last two years and with
> the delayed income from from LC and v5.0 were struggling to pay the
> bills.  Along came Apple who said "Ok, we like what you do, we'll
> save you but your finances are in a mess and you must make
> efficiency savings".   They looked at spending and income and the
> Mac products turned out to be most profitable.  The Emagic guys had
> a simple choice - let the company fall or make the required savings
> and continue with Apple's money and under Apple's rules.
> 
> I'm a Windows user who was very upset at the news.  But I've calmed
> down a little!  5.2 will be fine for now but in the future there
> will be products (new Logic features / new instruments / new
> harware) that will Mac only.  Given that you end up upgrading your
> computer every 18 months or so anyway the obvious solution is to buy
> a Mac the next time rather than a new PC.  I'd rather do that than
> switch to another sequencer.
> 
> G.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To unsubscribe from this group, send a blank email to:
> exs-users-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> For a list of places to get free samples please see:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/exs-users/links/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
>

Murray,

What you have said in regards to the contribution of Apple to a certain
style of computer interaction is perhaps also a form of mythology and does
not respect the differences between the work at the Park center and what was
finally produced on the first Mac. However, that is not the point at all. I
was really commenting on the state of mind of Steve Jobs (and really, is it
so unreasonable to point out that Bill Gates has engaged in many forms of
unethical business practise). I am reasonably certain that Steve Jobs does
think that way and therefore he has no sympathy for users who are being
screwed by the discontinuation of Windows software. I am just saying that he
is getting quite aggressive and he has a very strong ego. I am also pointing
out that the Apple corporate strategy might be coming directly Steve.

I don't think Apple wants a people to be working cross-platform. I think he
does not want the kind of CPU and hardware complaints we see here on this
list. What Apple wants is a concentration of compelling software only on the
Mac OS.

Regards

Paul 

> From: Murray McDowall <murraymc@...>
> Reply-To: exs-users@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 01:00:21 +1000
> To: exs-users@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [exs] Some reasons why Steve Jobs bought Emagic
> 
> At 10:21 AM 10/07/02 -0500, you wrote:
>>> The rest of your post is exactly the sort of Kool-Aid inspired crap that
>>> has just been banned from the LUG.
>>> 
>>> It has nothing to do with the EXS24.
>> 
>> Down boy... but I agree with the rest of your points.
> 
> Hi Jer,
> 
> Thanks for your other post.
> 
> I  wrote that because I thought it is a little insensitive to post
> advocating that Jobs move to shaft PC users even more than he already has.
> 
> I really like the whole cross platform thing. I really like that we are a
> group of people with a shared interest -- who despite being spread all over
> the world are able to share information and help each other in our
> work/creative pursuits. I couldn't care less what platform floats your boat.
> 
> The points in the post I was referring to about M$ stealing the GUI from
> Mac  --they don't hold water. There is a GUI like the Xerox/Windows/Mac GUI
> on every operating system for the last 10 - 12 years -- Unix had X-Windows
> etc , Linux has several, GEM was available on PC and other 680x0 platforms.
> Xerox PARC invented the GUI it in the first place. As Steve Jobs once said:
> "Good ideas are copied; the best ideas are stolen."
> 
> M$ cut a few corners in developing their GUI -- what is the effect of that?
> Bugger all. They could have bought GEM -- they would have got a Xerox style
> GUI from somewhere. Coding Word for it would have been more work that's
> all. There was no other option than to develop a modern graphical interface.
> 
> OS/2 2.0 had it's own GUI in this style in 1992 so if it wasn't Windows
> sweeping all before it in the 90's,  it would have been OS/2.  If OS/2 had
> ended up on top, M$ would have still been in partnership with IBM --
> therefore no Apple-IBM-Motorola troika. PowerPC was largely the IBM Power
> architecture with a few minor Motorola bits tacked on. Where would Apple be
> now if M$ hadn't ratted on IBM?
> 
> My Point?  The idea that any of this ancient history is a moral
> justification for shafting musicians who use PC hardware is rubbish..
> 
>> This list is notorious
>> for OT subject matter. I've often thought of the list name as a misnomer. It
>> seems more like a group of talented people who talk about whatever it is
>> they want to talk about it. I'm not a member of LUG, nor do I have a desire
>> to be. I like this list for what it has been over the last year. A forum of
>> pro users who talk about all the issues affecting such a niche. Admittedly,
>> however, the Logic/Mac/PC has dominated our collective psyche lately.
> 
> That is interesting -- that you aren't on the LUG. The LUG has been a
> train-wreck since the announcement and the moderators have been deluged by
> 2500+ messages. The LUG descended into a huge platform war the like of
> which we have never seen. This move by Apple has split what has been a
> fairly harmonious community. The Moderators have taken a stand in the last
> couple of days explicitly banning this stuff.
> 
> Below I have pasted what they posted to the LUG.
> 
> Regards,
> Murray
> __________________________________
> 
> Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 01:27:35 -0000
> From: "lug_moderators" <lug_moderators@...>
> Subject: [ADMIN] Our New Moderation Policy
> Due to the extremely volatile situation lately here on the LUG,
> an abnormal amount of platform wars have been started. Because
> of this, Windows "PCs" and Macintoshes will no longer be
> directly compared on this list, as this just creates a never
> ending debate. As of right now, *any* message that argues Mac
> vs. PC will either be rejected, or edited by the admins to
> remove the offensive comments. We will also edit or reject any
> messages that are even *likely* to start yet another Mac vs.
> PC debate, -or- are generally inflammatory in nature and non
> constructive. Please be careful what you post!
> It is unfortunate that we have had to take such drastic
> measures, but the moderating team has been overwhelmed by the
> flood of messages debating platforms, and this cannot continue.
> For what it is worth, we moderators are an even mix of Mac and
> Windows users, so no means is this a decision biased because of
> the individual platform we happen to use. Everyone has had a
> full week now to express their opinions on Apple buying Emagic,
> as well as explain exactly why or why not switching to a Mac
> may or may not be a good idea, so there really is no point in
> repeating what has already been said many times before.
> We will eventually remove this "rule", so by no means will this
> be effect forever - just until everything calms down in a few
> weeks or months or however long it takes. We are very much
> looking forward to returning to a more casual moderation
> policy, but that's just not possible right now. On the other
> hand, advice on choosing PC or Mac hardware is still more than
> welcome, as is comparisons between Logic and other sequencers.
> This group is an invaluable resource to over 8,000 of us now,
> using both platforms, and that we are only trying to keep it
> that way. 
> Thanks for your understanding,
> the LUG Moderators
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To unsubscribe from this group, send a blank email to:
> exs-users-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> For a list of places to get free samples please see:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/exs-users/links/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
>

Paul Nicholls wrote:
>Murray,
>
>What you have said in regards to the contribution of Apple to a certain
>style of computer interaction is perhaps also a form of mythology and does
>not respect the differences between the work at the Park center and what was
>finally produced on the first Mac. 

Hi Paul,

My first point was simply that this idea first saw the light of day at the
PARC not Apple. There were versions of the basic stuff in the 60's believe
it or not. I have seen a film of a demonstration of very early stuff along
these lines. Now what do you think -- how long would one company be the
sole purveyor of this general type of interface? Monkey see monkey do. The
first Macs (18 years ago now) had 128 kB of RAM and were slowed down quite
a bit by the GUI -- once hardware got to the point where a user friendly
interface was practical it was_inevitable_ that it would be everywhere. 

Apple had a great headstart but they were greedy and didn't make the move
being a software company. If they had licenced their OS Jobs would now be
in Gates position. Remember Gates insight all those years ago -- what if
hardware was free? He quit school and started Microsoft. Jobs missed that
one. He still doesn't get it. He still wants to sell a box with his
company's software inside at a luxury item price. There would be no Toyotas
or Hyundais in Jobs' utupian vision -- only black Porsches.

Other companies copied the ideas they saw realised in the Mac. So what? One
brand of TV was the first with a remote control. Somebody somewhere made
the first sequencer. Logic's arrange page is a whole lot like Cubase's on
the Atari  and nothing at all like Notators on the Atari. Do we hear people
squealing about this sort of appropriation of other companies ideas?

>However, that is not the point at all. I
>was really commenting on the state of mind of Steve Jobs (and really, is it
>so unreasonable to point out that Bill Gates has engaged in many forms of
>unethical business practise). I am reasonably certain that Steve Jobs does
>think that way and therefore he has no sympathy for users who are being
>screwed by the discontinuation of Windows software. I am just saying that he
>is getting quite aggressive and he has a very strong ego. I am also pointing
>out that the Apple corporate strategy might be coming directly Steve.

In all probability you are correct. He is an autocrat. What seemed
offensive in 
this context was the impression I got that YOU thought this way too. You
wrote this:

>If buying Emagic seems
>unbelievable, yet happened, there is nothing to suppose that Apple will not
>make a similar move in the area of software synths. It makes sense, even
>though Emagic makes great synths and samplers too. Perhaps Mac users should
>even suggest this to Steve, our pal.

This struck me as inflammatory -- that's why I said lets give it a rest. 

How about if I had posted something like the following instead?
___________
>Perhaps PC users should suggest that Bill Gates buy Adobe -- the Bush 
>Government is eating out of M$'s hand -- and then they could cease 
>all development on the Mac platform for M$ Office and all Adobe products   -- 
>just out of pure bloodymindedness. I bet this would strengthen the PC
platform 
>and Gates has a big ego n'all. 
_____________

>I don't think Apple wants a people to be working cross-platform. I think he
>does not want the kind of CPU and hardware complaints we see here on this
>list. What Apple wants is a concentration of compelling software only on the
>Mac OS.

A drowning man will clutch at a straw. 
A drowning man with 4 billion dollars is in a 
position to clutch at a lot of things I guess.

Regards,
M

In a message dated 7/10/02 9:18:04 AM, murraymc@... writes:

>What it boils down to is this: Gerhard and the boys drank the Kool-Aid.
>
>Where is Jim Jones when you need him?

LOL

:-)

Good one!

-EP

--- In exs-users@y..., Paul Nicholls <paulnicholls@s...> wrote:
> 
> What you are highlighting is that fact that Emagic was vulnerable. 
Frankly
> the fact that Mackie put out a MOTU version of Logic Control is 
another
> example of how Emagic got screwed recently.
> 



It's even worse than that - the Mackie Control not only supports 
MOTU but also Cubase and Sonar - everything apart from Logic!

I just can't believe a company like Emagic would not have an agreement to
prevent such a contingency. Wow!

> From: gordonmurrison <gordon.murrison@...>
> Reply-To: exs-users@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 22:19:29 +0000
> To: exs-users@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [exs] Re: Some reasons why Steve Jobs bought Emagic
> 
> --- In exs-users@y..., Paul Nicholls <paulnicholls@s...> wrote:
>> 
>> What you are highlighting is that fact that Emagic was vulnerable.
> Frankly
>> the fact that Mackie put out a MOTU version of Logic Control is
> another
>> example of how Emagic got screwed recently.
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's even worse than that - the Mackie Control not only supports
> MOTU but also Cubase and Sonar - everything apart from Logic!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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>

> >> What you are highlighting is that fact that Emagic was vulnerable.
Frankly
> >> the fact that Mackie put out a MOTU version of Logic Control is another
> >> example of how Emagic got screwed recently.
>
> > It's even worse than that - the Mackie Control not only supports
> > MOTU but also Cubase and Sonar - everything apart from Logic!
> 
> I just can't believe a company like Emagic would not have an agreement 
> to prevent such a contingency. Wow!


Yeah.. Especially if a large chunk of that "over one million dollars" they
spent developing the Logic Control was Emagic's. 

However I'm hoping that if there's never an easy way to just "flash" a
Logic/Mackie control to make it behave like the other, Emagic can at least
write some sort of Mackie Control emulator, like they have the HUI emulator.
Since they sent out the same types of data exactly it shouldn't be that hard
for them to buy a M.C. and reverse engineer what they need to do to design
an emulator. 

I'm more interested in the fact that the M.C. will work with several sample
editors like Cool Edit Pro, probably Wavelab, hopefully SoundForge, etc,
than the fact that it would work with another sequencer as well... I hope
Emagic doesn't punish all of us who would like to use a LC with other
software just because the LC could then work with another sequencer. In the
end you'd still have to buy the hardware for Emagic so they shouldn't care.
On the other hand, if Mackie or Steinberg comes up with a LC emulator for
the MC first.... 

Karma's a bitch if you piss her off ;-)

Jeremy
http://www.ixks.com/~sadus

because they have the money too :o)
I would have done the same if i had $$$$$$ ! ;o)

first and last contribution to the Logic/apple discussion.
Igor