Disklavier

In defense of any piano technician getting a little "hostile" over technical 
support of "gray market" pianos, I don't think you really understand the 
problem.  True, Yamaha is a huge company doing a global business.  Their 
products are manufactured specifically for different markets.  The pianos in 
particular are not interchangeable!

The bottom line, though, is some non-Yamaha piano dealer trying to make a 
buck and ripping off the American public.  Japanese, as well as other Asian 
people, generally do not purchase used merchandise - they buy new pianos.  
Americans, on the other hand, think that anything that isn't broken is as 
good as new. So in Japan, there is tremendous supply of used instruments and 
no market.  In the the USA, there is a tremendous market, but not a good 
supply of used instruments manufactured for the American market (climate).  
Therefore, many of these used pianos manufactured for the Asian climate are 
being imported into the United States by non-Yamaha dealers.  Since both the 
real Yamahas (those manufactured for the US) and the "gray market" Yamahas 
have the same name on them, most US customers don't realize the difference - 
however the dealers certainly do, and they are the culprits!

As a piano technician, I am absolutely appalled by the whole scheme.  These 
"gray market" pianos are usually sold for about half the price of a 
comparable US market piano, and the customers are told it is the real thing. 
  These pianos ALWAYS have irritating service problems, as the customers 
quickly discover.  They literally have thrown their piano dollars down the 
drain.

It is bad enough that we have to deal with gray market pianos, but to have 
to deal with the tears of gray market disklaviers would be absolutely too 
much!  One of the worst experiences you can have as a piano technician is to 
see the "look" and tears in the eyes of someone who has been ripped off.

  So if we get a little crusty protecting YOUR interests, be thankful we are 
on your side!

Carol Beigel



>From: "Shawn Nunley" <shawn@...>
>Reply-To: disklavier@egroups.com
>To: <disklavier@egroups.com>
>Subject: RE: [Re: [Re: [disklavier] Owners manual - older disklavier]]
>Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 14:02:57 -0800
>
>Mark,
>
>As right as you may be, it probably doesn't serve anybody very well to take
>a hostile tone.  You represent Yamaha when you use Yamaha in your 
>signature,
>and I don't think it's inappropriate for a buyer of a Yamaha product
>manufactured in one part of the world to expect support from Yamaha in
>another part of the world.  Yamaha is a Wolrd-Class organization, and
>consumers come to expect certain things from those organizations whether it
>is easy for the company to provide it or not.
>
>All reasons for lack of service, or refusal to support these products are
>naturally going to elicit conspiracy theories from some people.  Just 
>accept
>it.  Reasonable people will come to reasonable conclusions based on facts.
>Thank you for the facts in your reply.
>
>-Shawn Nunley
>(a happy Mark II owner)
>

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

I totally agree.  No body wants to get ripped off now to they?







At 12:28 AM 1/23/01 -0500, you wrote:

>In defense of any piano technician getting a little "hostile" over technical
>support of "gray market" pianos, I don't think you really understand the
>problem.  True, Yamaha is a huge company doing a global business.  Their
>products are manufactured specifically for different markets.  The pianos in
>particular are not interchangeable!
>
>The bottom line, though, is some non-Yamaha piano dealer trying to make a
>buck and ripping off the American public.  Japanese, as well as other Asian
>people, generally do not purchase used merchandise - they buy new pianos.
>Americans, on the other hand, think that anything that isn't broken is as
>good as new. So in Japan, there is tremendous supply of used instruments and
>no market.  In the the USA, there is a tremendous market, but not a good
>supply of used instruments manufactured for the American market (climate).
>Therefore, many of these used pianos manufactured for the Asian climate are
>being imported into the United States by non-Yamaha dealers.  Since both the
>real Yamahas (those manufactured for the US) and the "gray market" Yamahas
>have the same name on them, most US customers don't realize the difference -
>however the dealers certainly do, and they are the culprits!
>
>As a piano technician, I am absolutely appalled by the whole scheme.  These
>"gray market" pianos are usually sold for about half the price of a
>comparable US market piano, and the customers are told it is the real thing.
>   These pianos ALWAYS have irritating service problems, as the customers
>quickly discover.  They literally have thrown their piano dollars down the
>drain.
>
>It is bad enough that we have to deal with gray market pianos, but to have
>to deal with the tears of gray market disklaviers would be absolutely too
>much!  One of the worst experiences you can have as a piano technician is to
>see the "look" and tears in the eyes of someone who has been ripped off.
>
>   So if we get a little crusty protecting YOUR interests, be thankful we are
>on your side!
>
>Carol Beigel
>
>
>
> >From: "Shawn Nunley" <shawn@...>
> >Reply-To: disklavier@egroups.com
> >To: <disklavier@egroups.com>
> >Subject: RE: [Re: [Re: [disklavier] Owners manual - older disklavier]]
> >Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 14:02:57 -0800
> >
> >Mark,
> >
> >As right as you may be, it probably doesn't serve anybody very well to take
> >a hostile tone.  You represent Yamaha when you use Yamaha in your
> >signature,
> >and I don't think it's inappropriate for a buyer of a Yamaha product
> >manufactured in one part of the world to expect support from Yamaha in
> >another part of the world.  Yamaha is a Wolrd-Class organization, and
> >consumers come to expect certain things from those organizations whether it
> >is easy for the company to provide it or not.
> >
> >All reasons for lack of service, or refusal to support these products are
> >naturally going to elicit conspiracy theories from some people.  Just
> >accept
> >it.  Reasonable people will come to reasonable conclusions based on facts.
> >Thank you for the facts in your reply.
> >
> >-Shawn Nunley
> >(a happy Mark II owner)
> >
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
>
>
>To Post a message to the group, send it to:   disklavier@...
>
>To Post a private message to Todd Muncy, the group's founder and 
>moderator, send it to:
>disklavier-owner@egroups.com
>
>To reach our group's web site go to:
>http://egroups.com/group/disklavier
>
>To visit Todd's family web site that contains some fun disklavier content 
>among other things, go to:
>http://MuncyFamily.com
>
>THINKING OF LEAVING THE GROUP?
>If you are thinking of unsubcribing because you are getting too much mail, 
>go the the web site and change your email delivery option instead.  That 
>will fix the problem, while maintaining your access to the group.  If you 
>insist on leaving us completely send a blank email to:
>disklavier-unsubscribe@...
>
>Know someone who wants to join?  Have them send a blank email to:
>disklavier-subscribe@...

Carol,

I do understand the problem.  As I stated in my post, I think it is correct of Yamaha to refuse support for these instruments.  Your post actually serves to make my point that owners of these instruments are really the innocent victims, and I didn't think that taking a hostile tone with him was appropriate, especially when you are a representative of the company.

Justifiable or not, it's rude.  On *that* point, we may have a difference of opinion.  And that's OK too.

Shawn Nunley.

On Mon, 22 January 2001, "Carol Beigel" wrote:

> 
> In defense of any piano technician getting a little "hostile" over technical 
> support of "gray market" pianos, I don't think you really understand the 
> problem.  True, Yamaha is a huge company doing a global business.  Their 
> products are manufactured specifically for different markets.  The pianos in 
> particular are not interchangeable!
> 
> The bottom line, though, is some non-Yamaha piano dealer trying to make a 
> buck and ripping off the American public.  Japanese, as well as other Asian 
> people, generally do not purchase used merchandise - they buy new pianos.  
> Americans, on the other hand, think that anything that isn't broken is as 
> good as new. So in Japan, there is tremendous supply of used instruments and 
> no market.  In the the USA, there is a tremendous market, but not a good 
> supply of used instruments manufactured for the American market (climate).  
> Therefore, many of these used pianos manufactured for the Asian climate are 
> being imported into the United States by non-Yamaha dealers.  Since both the 
> real Yamahas (those manufactured for the US) and the "gray market" Yamahas 
> have the same name on them, most US customers don't realize the difference - 
> however the dealers certainly do, and they are the culprits!
> 
> As a piano technician, I am absolutely appalled by the whole scheme.  These 
> "gray market" pianos are usually sold for about half the price of a 
> comparable US market piano, and the customers are told it is the real thing. 
>   These pianos ALWAYS have irritating service problems, as the customers 
> quickly discover.  They literally have thrown their piano dollars down the 
> drain.
> 
> It is bad enough that we have to deal with gray market pianos, but to have 
> to deal with the tears of gray market disklaviers would be absolutely too 
> much!  One of the worst experiences you can have as a piano technician is to 
> see the "look" and tears in the eyes of someone who has been ripped off.
> 
>   So if we get a little crusty protecting YOUR interests, be thankful we are 
> on your side!
> 
> Carol Beigel
> 
> 
> 
> >From: "Shawn Nunley" <shawn@...>
> >Reply-To: disklavier@egroups.com
> >To: <disklavier@egroups.com>
> >Subject: RE: [Re: [Re: [disklavier] Owners manual - older disklavier]]
> >Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 14:02:57 -0800
> >
> >Mark,
> >
> >As right as you may be, it probably doesn't serve anybody very well to take
> >a hostile tone.  You represent Yamaha when you use Yamaha in your 
> >signature,
> >and I don't think it's inappropriate for a buyer of a Yamaha product
> >manufactured in one part of the world to expect support from Yamaha in
> >another part of the world.  Yamaha is a Wolrd-Class organization, and
> >consumers come to expect certain things from those organizations whether it
> >is easy for the company to provide it or not.
> >
> >All reasons for lack of service, or refusal to support these products are
> >naturally going to elicit conspiracy theories from some people.  Just 
> >accept
> >it.  Reasonable people will come to reasonable conclusions based on facts.
> >Thank you for the facts in your reply.
> >
> >-Shawn Nunley
> >(a happy Mark II owner)
> >
> 
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
> 
> 
> To Post a message to the group, send it to:   disklavier@...
> 
> To Post a private message to Todd Muncy, the group's founder and moderator, send it to:
> disklavier-owner@egroups.com
> 
> To reach our group's web site go to:
> http://egroups.com/group/disklavier
> 
> To visit Todd's family web site that contains some fun disklavier content among other things, go to:
> http://MuncyFamily.com
> 
> THINKING OF LEAVING THE GROUP?
> If you are thinking of unsubcribing because you are getting too much mail, go the the web site and change your email delivery option instead.  That will fix the problem, while maintaining your access to the group.  If you insist on leaving us completely send a blank email to:
> disklavier-unsubscribe@...
> 
> Know someone who wants to join?  Have them send a blank email to:
> disklavier-subscribe@...

I always have question regarding the statement below. How Yamaha 
manufactured for special market, for example US. US climate is not one 
climate. There are as many climate as those of in Asia (from South 
East Asia to Japan). In addition, when I was in my senior year in 
college, I had a practical training in Yamaha factory in Jakarta, 
Indonesia, and I was not aware that they make different pianos for 
different climates. 


--- In disklavier@yahoogroups.com, "Carol Beigel" <carolrpt@...> wrote:
Their 
> products are manufactured specifically for different markets.  The 
pianos in 

> particular are not interchangeable!
> 
> 
> Carol Beigel
>

--- In disklavier@yahoogroups.com, "George F. Litterst" 
<PianoBench@...> wrote:
I have another question "How does Yamaha know whether they are 
selling parts to fix a gray market piano?". Does Yamaha only sell 
parts through their dealers?



> 
> If you purchase a piano that was not made for North America, you  
> cannot get parts and service from Yamaha Corporation of America. 
And,  
> it is advisable to keep up the relative humidity in your home 
year  
> round.
> 
> Regards,
> PianoBench
> 
> 
> On Aug 26, 2007, at 11:57 PM, rondisklavier wrote:
> 
> > I always have question regarding the statement below. How Yamaha
> > manufactured for special market, for example US. US climate is 
not one
> > climate. There are as many climate as those of in Asia (from 
South
> > East Asia to Japan). In addition, when I was in my senior year in
> > college, I had a practical training in Yamaha factory in Jakarta,
> > Indonesia, and I was not aware that they make different pianos 
for
> > different climates.
> >
> > --- In disklavier@yahoogroups.com, "Carol Beigel" <carolrpt@>  
> > wrote:
> > Their
> > > products are manufactured specifically for different markets. 
The

> > pianos in
> > > particular are not interchangeable!
> > >
> > >
> > > Carol Beigel
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>

I really believe people also can get gray Yamaha parts easily from 
abroad. If they can import such a humagous piano, importing small 
parts should not be a problem. Therefore, I really do not think that 
people need to worry about buying gray pianos, especially if the 
price is very reasonable. I myself just bought MX100II made for US. 
I personally do not want to have unnecessary hazels if my piano is 
broken and need to get parts from outside of the US. But for those 
who have bought gray pianos, I do not think that it is the end of 
the world if their pianos are broken. The chance of Yamaha pianos go 
bad is very small.




--- In disklavier@yahoogroups.com, "George F. Litterst" 
<PianoBench@...> wrote:
>
> Good evening, everyone.
> 
> I don't know the details about how parts are controlled. However, 
my  
> local piano technician tells me that he is required to produce a  
> serial number when he orders a part from Yamaha.
> 
> Regards,
> PianoBench
> 
> 
> On Aug 27, 2007, at 11:51 PM, rondisklavier wrote:
> 
> > --- In disklavier@yahoogroups.com, "George F. Litterst"
> > <PianoBench@> wrote:
> > I have another question "How does Yamaha know whether they are
> > selling parts to fix a gray market piano?". Does Yamaha only sell
> > parts through their dealers?
> >
> > >
> > > If you purchase a piano that was not made for North America, 
you
> > > cannot get parts and service from Yamaha Corporation of 
America.
> > And,
> > > it is advisable to keep up the relative humidity in your home
> > year
> > > round.
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > > PianoBench
> > >
> > >
> > > On Aug 26, 2007, at 11:57 PM, rondisklavier wrote:
> > >
> > > > I always have question regarding the statement below. How 
Yamaha
> > > > manufactured for special market, for example US. US climate 
is
> > not one
> > > > climate. There are as many climate as those of in Asia (from
> > South
> > > > East Asia to Japan). In addition, when I was in my senior 
year in
> > > > college, I had a practical training in Yamaha factory in 
Jakarta,
> > > > Indonesia, and I was not aware that they make different 
pianos
> > for
> > > > different climates.
> > > >
> > > > --- In disklavier@yahoogroups.com, "Carol Beigel" <carolrpt@>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > Their
> > > > > products are manufactured specifically for different 
markets.

> > The
> > > > pianos in
> > > > > particular are not interchangeable!
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Carol Beigel
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>

Would be nice maybe, but that is not how it works.  It is extremely 
difficult to get Disklavier parts in the US for graymarket units.  The piano 
parts are often different as their dimensions are not always the same.  The 
pianos will not hold up very well in dryness caused by central heating 
systems.

The electronic parts are not UL approved and therefore can create a 
liability for the supplier.  On a gray market Disklavier, many connections 
are soldered and not easy to repair; but their made-for-the US counterparts 
have nice little connectors on both the circuit boards and the wires.

Mostly people who import gray market pianos are smaller operators and 
wholesalers.  They are not bound by Yamaha's service bonds with their 
dealers.

And lastly, Yamaha is not just one big corporation.  The U.S. Division, the 
Canadian, the Japanese, etc. divisions are completely independent from one 
another.  They do not have a central supplier.  Pianos are made differently 
for these different markets because it costs a lot more money to make a 
piano for a country that has homes whose moisture contents is very low 
during winter.

In my opinion as a piano and Disklavier technician, I would never recommend 
purchasing a graymarket piano or Disklavier.  Those up front supposed 
savings can be a huge headache if the piano ever needs servicing.  One good 
thunderstorm can wipe out your investment.

Carol Beigel

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "rondisklavier" <setiawansr@...>
To: <disklavier@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2007 1:46 AM
Subject: [disklavier] Re: gray market disklaviers (was owners manual)


>I really believe people also can get gray Yamaha parts easily from
> abroad. If they can import such a humagous piano, importing small
> parts should not be a problem. Therefore, I really do not think that
> people need to worry about buying gray pianos, especially if the
> price is very reasonable. I myself just bought MX100II made for US.
> I personally do not want to have unnecessary hazels if my piano is
> broken and need to get parts from outside of the US. But for those
> who have bought gray pianos, I do not think that it is the end of
> the world if their pianos are broken. The chance of Yamaha pianos go
> bad is very small.
>
>
>
>
> --- In disklavier@yahoogroups.com, "George F. Litterst"
> <PianoBench@...> wrote:
>>
>> Good evening, everyone.
>>
>> I don't know the details about how parts are controlled. However,
> my
>> local piano technician tells me that he is required to produce a
>> serial number when he orders a part from Yamaha.
>>
>> Regards,
>> PianoBench
>>
>>
>> On Aug 27, 2007, at 11:51 PM, rondisklavier wrote:
>>
>> > --- In disklavier@yahoogroups.com, "George F. Litterst"
>> > <PianoBench@> wrote:
>> > I have another question "How does Yamaha know whether they are
>> > selling parts to fix a gray market piano?". Does Yamaha only sell
>> > parts through their dealers?
>> >
>> > >
>> > > If you purchase a piano that was not made for North America,
> you
>> > > cannot get parts and service from Yamaha Corporation of
> America.
>> > And,
>> > > it is advisable to keep up the relative humidity in your home
>> > year
>> > > round.
>> > >
>> > > Regards,
>> > > PianoBench
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > On Aug 26, 2007, at 11:57 PM, rondisklavier wrote:
>> > >
>> > > > I always have question regarding the statement below. How
> Yamaha
>> > > > manufactured for special market, for example US. US climate
> is
>> > not one
>> > > > climate. There are as many climate as those of in Asia (from
>> > South
>> > > > East Asia to Japan). In addition, when I was in my senior
> year in
>> > > > college, I had a practical training in Yamaha factory in
> Jakarta,
>> > > > Indonesia, and I was not aware that they make different
> pianos
>> > for
>> > > > different climates.
>> > > >
>> > > > --- In disklavier@yahoogroups.com, "Carol Beigel" <carolrpt@>
>> > > > wrote:
>> > > > Their
>> > > > > products are manufactured specifically for different
> markets.
>> > The
>> > > > pianos in
>> > > > > particular are not interchangeable!
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Carol Beigel
>> > > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>
>
>
>
> To Post a message to the group, send it to:   disklavier@...
>
> To Post a private message to Todd Muncy, the group's founder and 
> moderator, send it to:
> disklavier-owner@...
>
> To reach our group's web site go to:
> http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier
>
> THINKING OF LEAVING THE GROUP?
> If you are thinking of unsubcribing because you are getting too much mail, 
> go the the web site and change your email delivery option instead.  That 
> will fix the problem, while maintaining your access to the group.  If you 
> insist on leaving us completely send a blank email to:
> disklavier-unsubscribe@...
>
> Know someone who wants to join?  Have them send a blank email to:
> disklavier-subscribe@... or give them this link:
> http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier/join
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
> -- 
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.484 / Virus Database: 269.12.9/975 - Release Date: 8/26/2007 
> 9:34 PM
>
>

Carol,

I used to have my practical training in Yamaha factory for my 
internship.
I asked the workers there whether they make different pianos for 
different destination, they told me that they DID NOT make piano for 
specific destination, all pianos were made the same. Regarding the 
electronics connection, all connections are not soldered, everything 
is connected by connectors. It cost too much to have technicians to 
solder things...The chance of them making mistake is also high. 

I am not a piano sellers or have anything to do with piano industry, 
I just do not believe that Yamaha makes pianos differently for 
different market. It will cost them too much monies, in addition, 
Japanese manufacturing is very very automated so doing different way 
for different market is utterly impossible.

Ron



--- In disklavier@yahoogroups.com, "Carol Beigel" <thecarolb@...> 
wrote:
>
> Would be nice maybe, but that is not how it works.  It is 
extremely 
> difficult to get Disklavier parts in the US for graymarket units.  
The piano 
> parts are often different as their dimensions are not always the 
same.  The 
> pianos will not hold up very well in dryness caused by central 
heating 
> systems.
> 
> The electronic parts are not UL approved and therefore can create 
a 
> liability for the supplier.  On a gray market Disklavier, many 
connections 
> are soldered and not easy to repair; but their made-for-the US 
counterparts 
> have nice little connectors on both the circuit boards and the 
wires.
> 
> Mostly people who import gray market pianos are smaller operators 
and 
> wholesalers.  They are not bound by Yamaha's service bonds with 
their 
> dealers.
> 
> And lastly, Yamaha is not just one big corporation.  The U.S. 
Division, the 
> Canadian, the Japanese, etc. divisions are completely independent 
from one 
> another.  They do not have a central supplier.  Pianos are made 
differently 
> for these different markets because it costs a lot more money to 
make a 
> piano for a country that has homes whose moisture contents is very 
low 
> during winter.
> 
> In my opinion as a piano and Disklavier technician, I would never 
recommend 
> purchasing a graymarket piano or Disklavier.  Those up front 
supposed 
> savings can be a huge headache if the piano ever needs servicing.  
One good 
> thunderstorm can wipe out your investment.
> 
> Carol Beigel
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "rondisklavier" <setiawansr@...>
> To: <disklavier@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2007 1:46 AM
> Subject: [disklavier] Re: gray market disklaviers (was owners 
manual)
> 
> 
> >I really believe people also can get gray Yamaha parts easily from
> > abroad. If they can import such a humagous piano, importing small
> > parts should not be a problem. Therefore, I really do not think 
that
> > people need to worry about buying gray pianos, especially if the
> > price is very reasonable. I myself just bought MX100II made for 
US.
> > I personally do not want to have unnecessary hazels if my piano 
is
> > broken and need to get parts from outside of the US. But for 
those
> > who have bought gray pianos, I do not think that it is the end of
> > the world if their pianos are broken. The chance of Yamaha 
pianos go
> > bad is very small.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In disklavier@yahoogroups.com, "George F. Litterst"
> > <PianoBench@> wrote:
> >>
> >> Good evening, everyone.
> >>
> >> I don't know the details about how parts are controlled. 
However,
> > my
> >> local piano technician tells me that he is required to produce a
> >> serial number when he orders a part from Yamaha.
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >> PianoBench
> >>
> >>
> >> On Aug 27, 2007, at 11:51 PM, rondisklavier wrote:
> >>
> >> > --- In disklavier@yahoogroups.com, "George F. Litterst"
> >> > <PianoBench@> wrote:
> >> > I have another question "How does Yamaha know whether they are
> >> > selling parts to fix a gray market piano?". Does Yamaha only 
sell
> >> > parts through their dealers?
> >> >
> >> > >
> >> > > If you purchase a piano that was not made for North America,
> > you
> >> > > cannot get parts and service from Yamaha Corporation of
> > America.
> >> > And,
> >> > > it is advisable to keep up the relative humidity in your 
home
> >> > year
> >> > > round.
> >> > >
> >> > > Regards,
> >> > > PianoBench
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > On Aug 26, 2007, at 11:57 PM, rondisklavier wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > > > I always have question regarding the statement below. How
> > Yamaha
> >> > > > manufactured for special market, for example US. US 
climate
> > is
> >> > not one
> >> > > > climate. There are as many climate as those of in Asia 
(from
> >> > South
> >> > > > East Asia to Japan). In addition, when I was in my senior
> > year in
> >> > > > college, I had a practical training in Yamaha factory in
> > Jakarta,
> >> > > > Indonesia, and I was not aware that they make different
> > pianos
> >> > for
> >> > > > different climates.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > --- In disklavier@yahoogroups.com, "Carol Beigel" 
<carolrpt@>
> >> > > > wrote:
> >> > > > Their
> >> > > > > products are manufactured specifically for different
> > markets.
> >> > The
> >> > > > pianos in
> >> > > > > particular are not interchangeable!
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > Carol Beigel
> >> > > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > To Post a message to the group, send it to:   disklavier@...
> >
> > To Post a private message to Todd Muncy, the group's founder and 
> > moderator, send it to:
> > disklavier-owner@...
> >
> > To reach our group's web site go to:
> > http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier
> >
> > THINKING OF LEAVING THE GROUP?
> > If you are thinking of unsubcribing because you are getting too 
much mail, 
> > go the the web site and change your email delivery option 
instead.  That 
> > will fix the problem, while maintaining your access to the 
group.  If you 
> > insist on leaving us completely send a blank email to:
> > disklavier-unsubscribe@...
> >
> > Know someone who wants to join?  Have them send a blank email to:
> > disklavier-subscribe@... or give them this link:
> > http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier/join
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -- 
> > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> > Version: 7.5.484 / Virus Database: 269.12.9/975 - Release Date: 
8/26/2007 

> > 9:34 PM
> >
> >
>

I really don't want to belabor the point, but Yamaha pianos are manufactured 
in different factories all over the world.  Some are made in Hamamatsu, some 
in United States, some in China. The definition of a gray market piano in 
the United States is one that is manufactured for a different climate zone. 
For instance, it is cheaper to manufacture a piano for the Asian market 
because the wood does not need to to kiln dried to 5% moisture content to 
survive a winter in a centrally heated home in North America.  Gray market 
pianos will often not hold a tuning during heating season, the finish will 
crack and fall off the cabinet, and the soundboard flattens out and loses 
its crown and tone.

As for the electrical connections, I have personally tried to service gray 
market Disklaviers only to find that many connections are soldered.  Any 
electrical appliance in the U.S. must bear UL approval to be considered 
safe.  Anyone who sells non UL approved parts risks a product liability 
lawsuit should there be a fire.

Buy what you will, but for my advice, I would not consider a gray market 
piano a good investment or a trouble free relationship.

Carol Beigel

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "rondisklavier" <setiawansr@...>
To: <disklavier@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2007 10:37 AM
Subject: [disklavier] Re: gray market disklaviers (was owners manual)


> Carol,
>
> I used to have my practical training in Yamaha factory for my
> internship.
> I asked the workers there whether they make different pianos for
> different destination, they told me that they DID NOT make piano for
> specific destination, all pianos were made the same. Regarding the
> electronics connection, all connections are not soldered, everything
> is connected by connectors. It cost too much to have technicians to
> solder things...The chance of them making mistake is also high.
>
> I am not a piano sellers or have anything to do with piano industry,
> I just do not believe that Yamaha makes pianos differently for
> different market. It will cost them too much monies, in addition,
> Japanese manufacturing is very very automated so doing different way
> for different market is utterly impossible.
>
> Ron
>
>
>
> --- In disklavier@yahoogroups.com, "Carol Beigel" <thecarolb@...>
> wrote:
>>
>> Would be nice maybe, but that is not how it works.  It is
> extremely
>> difficult to get Disklavier parts in the US for graymarket units.
> The piano
>> parts are often different as their dimensions are not always the
> same.  The
>> pianos will not hold up very well in dryness caused by central
> heating
>> systems.
>>
>> The electronic parts are not UL approved and therefore can create
> a
>> liability for the supplier.  On a gray market Disklavier, many
> connections
>> are soldered and not easy to repair; but their made-for-the US
> counterparts
>> have nice little connectors on both the circuit boards and the
> wires.
>>
>> Mostly people who import gray market pianos are smaller operators
> and
>> wholesalers.  They are not bound by Yamaha's service bonds with
> their
>> dealers.
>>
>> And lastly, Yamaha is not just one big corporation.  The U.S.
> Division, the
>> Canadian, the Japanese, etc. divisions are completely independent
> from one
>> another.  They do not have a central supplier.  Pianos are made
> differently
>> for these different markets because it costs a lot more money to
> make a
>> piano for a country that has homes whose moisture contents is very
> low
>> during winter.
>>
>> In my opinion as a piano and Disklavier technician, I would never
> recommend
>> purchasing a graymarket piano or Disklavier.  Those up front
> supposed
>> savings can be a huge headache if the piano ever needs servicing.
> One good
>> thunderstorm can wipe out your investment.
>>
>> Carol Beigel
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "rondisklavier" <setiawansr@...>
>> To: <disklavier@yahoogroups.com>
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2007 1:46 AM
>> Subject: [disklavier] Re: gray market disklaviers (was owners
> manual)
>>
>>
>> >I really believe people also can get gray Yamaha parts easily from
>> > abroad. If they can import such a humagous piano, importing small
>> > parts should not be a problem. Therefore, I really do not think
> that
>> > people need to worry about buying gray pianos, especially if the
>> > price is very reasonable. I myself just bought MX100II made for
> US.
>> > I personally do not want to have unnecessary hazels if my piano
> is
>> > broken and need to get parts from outside of the US. But for
> those
>> > who have bought gray pianos, I do not think that it is the end of
>> > the world if their pianos are broken. The chance of Yamaha
> pianos go
>> > bad is very small.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --- In disklavier@yahoogroups.com, "George F. Litterst"
>> > <PianoBench@> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Good evening, everyone.
>> >>
>> >> I don't know the details about how parts are controlled.
> However,
>> > my
>> >> local piano technician tells me that he is required to produce a
>> >> serial number when he orders a part from Yamaha.
>> >>
>> >> Regards,
>> >> PianoBench
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Aug 27, 2007, at 11:51 PM, rondisklavier wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > --- In disklavier@yahoogroups.com, "George F. Litterst"
>> >> > <PianoBench@> wrote:
>> >> > I have another question "How does Yamaha know whether they are
>> >> > selling parts to fix a gray market piano?". Does Yamaha only
> sell
>> >> > parts through their dealers?
>> >> >
>> >> > >
>> >> > > If you purchase a piano that was not made for North America,
>> > you
>> >> > > cannot get parts and service from Yamaha Corporation of
>> > America.
>> >> > And,
>> >> > > it is advisable to keep up the relative humidity in your
> home
>> >> > year
>> >> > > round.
>> >> > >
>> >> > > Regards,
>> >> > > PianoBench
>> >> > >
>> >> > >
>> >> > > On Aug 26, 2007, at 11:57 PM, rondisklavier wrote:
>> >> > >
>> >> > > > I always have question regarding the statement below. How
>> > Yamaha
>> >> > > > manufactured for special market, for example US. US
> climate
>> > is
>> >> > not one
>> >> > > > climate. There are as many climate as those of in Asia
> (from
>> >> > South
>> >> > > > East Asia to Japan). In addition, when I was in my senior
>> > year in
>> >> > > > college, I had a practical training in Yamaha factory in
>> > Jakarta,
>> >> > > > Indonesia, and I was not aware that they make different
>> > pianos
>> >> > for
>> >> > > > different climates.
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > > --- In disklavier@yahoogroups.com, "Carol Beigel"
> <carolrpt@>
>> >> > > > wrote:
>> >> > > > Their
>> >> > > > > products are manufactured specifically for different
>> > markets.
>> >> > The
>> >> > > > pianos in
>> >> > > > > particular are not interchangeable!
>> >> > > > >
>> >> > > > >
>> >> > > > > Carol Beigel
>> >> > > > >
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > >
>> >> > >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > To Post a message to the group, send it to:   disklavier@...
>> >
>> > To Post a private message to Todd Muncy, the group's founder and
>> > moderator, send it to:
>> > disklavier-owner@...
>> >
>> > To reach our group's web site go to:
>> > http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier
>> >
>> > THINKING OF LEAVING THE GROUP?
>> > If you are thinking of unsubcribing because you are getting too
> much mail,
>> > go the the web site and change your email delivery option
> instead.  That
>> > will fix the problem, while maintaining your access to the
> group.  If you
>> > insist on leaving us completely send a blank email to:
>> > disklavier-unsubscribe@...
>> >
>> > Know someone who wants to join?  Have them send a blank email to:
>> > disklavier-subscribe@... or give them this link:
>> > http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier/join
>> >
>> > Yahoo! Groups Links
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > -- 
>> > No virus found in this incoming message.
>> > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>> > Version: 7.5.484 / Virus Database: 269.12.9/975 - Release Date:
> 8/26/2007
>> > 9:34 PM
>> >
>> >
>>
>
>
>
>
> To Post a message to the group, send it to:   disklavier@...
>
> To Post a private message to Todd Muncy, the group's founder and 
> moderator, send it to:
> disklavier-owner@...
>
> To reach our group's web site go to:
> http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier
>
> THINKING OF LEAVING THE GROUP?
> If you are thinking of unsubcribing because you are getting too much mail, 
> go the the web site and change your email delivery option instead.  That 
> will fix the problem, while maintaining your access to the group.  If you 
> insist on leaving us completely send a blank email to:
> disklavier-unsubscribe@...
>
> Know someone who wants to join?  Have them send a blank email to:
> disklavier-subscribe@... or give them this link:
> http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier/join
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
> -- 
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.484 / Virus Database: 269.12.10/976 - Release Date: 8/27/2007 
> 6:20 PM
>
>

--- In disklavier@yahoogroups.com, "Carol Beigel" <thecarolb@...> 
wrote:
 
> For instance, it is cheaper to manufacture a piano for the Asian 
market 
> because the wood does not need to to kiln dried to 5% moisture 
content to 

Carol,

Asia is much bigger than America. There is not only one climate in 
Asia. How about people in Hawaii? Does Yamaha make a special piano for 
people in Hawaii or people in Texas? Your argument just does not make 
sense and without base. And about the connectors, Yamaha hires cheap 
labor in many places, do you think that they expect these low paid 
laborers to do soldering? I did work for a month in Yamaha factory, 
everything is well planned, everything just needs to be connected...

So what do I do with my Disklavier that I have here in Florida when I  
move to Phoenix?

On Aug 28, 2007, at 8:16 AM, Carol Beigel wrote:

> Would be nice maybe, but that is not how it works.  It is extremely
> difficult to get Disklavier parts in the US for graymarket units.   
> The piano
> parts are often different as their dimensions are not always the  
> same.  The
> pianos will not hold up very well in dryness caused by central heating
> systems.
>
> The electronic parts are not UL approved and therefore can create a
> liability for the supplier.  On a gray market Disklavier, many  
> connections
> are soldered and not easy to repair; but their made-for-the US  
> counterparts
> have nice little connectors on both the circuit boards and the wires.
>
> Mostly people who import gray market pianos are smaller operators and
> wholesalers.  They are not bound by Yamaha's service bonds with their
> dealers.
>
> And lastly, Yamaha is not just one big corporation.  The U.S.  
> Division, the
> Canadian, the Japanese, etc. divisions are completely independent  
> from one
> another.  They do not have a central supplier.  Pianos are made  
> differently
> for these different markets because it costs a lot more money to  
> make a
> piano for a country that has homes whose moisture contents is very low
> during winter.
>
> In my opinion as a piano and Disklavier technician, I would never  
> recommend
> purchasing a graymarket piano or Disklavier.  Those up front supposed
> savings can be a huge headache if the piano ever needs servicing.   
> One good
> thunderstorm can wipe out your investment.
>
> Carol Beigel
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "rondisklavier" <setiawansr@...>
> To: <disklavier@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2007 1:46 AM
> Subject: [disklavier] Re: gray market disklaviers (was owners manual)
>
>
>> I really believe people also can get gray Yamaha parts easily from
>> abroad. If they can import such a humagous piano, importing small
>> parts should not be a problem. Therefore, I really do not think that
>> people need to worry about buying gray pianos, especially if the
>> price is very reasonable. I myself just bought MX100II made for US.
>> I personally do not want to have unnecessary hazels if my piano is
>> broken and need to get parts from outside of the US. But for those
>> who have bought gray pianos, I do not think that it is the end of
>> the world if their pianos are broken. The chance of Yamaha pianos go
>> bad is very small.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --- In disklavier@yahoogroups.com, "George F. Litterst"
>> <PianoBench@...> wrote:
>>>
>>> Good evening, everyone.
>>>
>>> I don't know the details about how parts are controlled. However,
>> my
>>> local piano technician tells me that he is required to produce a
>>> serial number when he orders a part from Yamaha.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> PianoBench
>>>
>>>
>>> On Aug 27, 2007, at 11:51 PM, rondisklavier wrote:
>>>
>>>> --- In disklavier@yahoogroups.com, "George F. Litterst"
>>>> <PianoBench@> wrote:
>>>> I have another question "How does Yamaha know whether they are
>>>> selling parts to fix a gray market piano?". Does Yamaha only sell
>>>> parts through their dealers?
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> If you purchase a piano that was not made for North America,
>> you
>>>>> cannot get parts and service from Yamaha Corporation of
>> America.
>>>> And,
>>>>> it is advisable to keep up the relative humidity in your home
>>>> year
>>>>> round.
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>> PianoBench
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Aug 26, 2007, at 11:57 PM, rondisklavier wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I always have question regarding the statement below. How
>> Yamaha
>>>>>> manufactured for special market, for example US. US climate
>> is
>>>> not one
>>>>>> climate. There are as many climate as those of in Asia (from
>>>> South
>>>>>> East Asia to Japan). In addition, when I was in my senior
>> year in
>>>>>> college, I had a practical training in Yamaha factory in
>> Jakarta,
>>>>>> Indonesia, and I was not aware that they make different
>> pianos
>>>> for
>>>>>> different climates.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --- In disklavier@yahoogroups.com, "Carol Beigel" <carolrpt@>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> Their
>>>>>>> products are manufactured specifically for different
>> markets.
>>>> The
>>>>>> pianos in
>>>>>>> particular are not interchangeable!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Carol Beigel
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> To Post a message to the group, send it to:    
>> disklavier@...
>>
>> To Post a private message to Todd Muncy, the group's founder and
>> moderator, send it to:
>> disklavier-owner@...
>>
>> To reach our group's web site go to:
>> http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier
>>
>> THINKING OF LEAVING THE GROUP?
>> If you are thinking of unsubcribing because you are getting too  
>> much mail,
>> go the the web site and change your email delivery option  
>> instead.  That
>> will fix the problem, while maintaining your access to the group.   
>> If you
>> insist on leaving us completely send a blank email to:
>> disklavier-unsubscribe@...
>>
>> Know someone who wants to join?  Have them send a blank email to:
>> disklavier-subscribe@... or give them this link:
>> http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier/join
>>
>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -- 
>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>> Version: 7.5.484 / Virus Database: 269.12.9/975 - Release Date:  
>> 8/26/2007
>> 9:34 PM
>>
>>
>
>
>
> To Post a message to the group, send it to:    
> disklavier@...
>
> To Post a private message to Todd Muncy, the group's founder and  
> moderator, send it to:
> disklavier-owner@...
>
> To reach our group's web site go to:
> http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier
>
> THINKING OF LEAVING THE GROUP?
> If you are thinking of unsubcribing because you are getting too  
> much mail, go the the web site and change your email delivery  
> option instead.  That will fix the problem, while maintaining your  
> access to the group.  If you insist on leaving us completely send a  
> blank email to:
> disklavier-unsubscribe@...
>
> Know someone who wants to join?  Have them send a blank email to:
> disklavier-subscribe@... or give them this link:
> http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier/join
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

George,

You are correct about home in the US, Canada etc.
However, you assumption is that people in Asia do not use 
airconditioning.Human beings are the same, nobody likes humid 
environment. Therefore, the people who bought piano (especilly 
Disklavier), they are NOT poor people. They also have central air 
conditioner and they do turn on their air conditioner 24/7. As a 
result, the environment where those pianos experience is exactly the 
same as in US...As dry as in US. Are those pianos cracking? No, they 
are not. I had my C5 in Indonesia for years and it did not crack (my 
house is 100% air conditionered for 24 hours. How about the pianos 
in Yamaha Music Foundation that are in 100% airconditioner 
environment for years, do Yamaha Music Foundation in Indonesia needs 
to import special pianos for their music schools?

Sorry not to be argumentative, but we do need to know the condition 
is Asia, before we assume that those people do not live in an 
airconditioner environment. Once again, what you said is correct, 
out side wheather has nothing to do. The inside climate is the more 
important one.

RS


--- In disklavier@yahoogroups.com, "George F. Litterst" 
<PianoBench@...> wrote:
>
> Good afternoon, everyone.
> 
> Regarding the comment below from rondisklavier:
> 
> It is true that in a large country like the US, the average 
humidity  
> various from location to location. The key point, however, is 
this:  
> No matter where you go in the US and Canada, in all likelihood, 
the  
> indoor environment has central heating and/or air conditioning 
that  
> is active for a significant portion of the year. Both central 
heating  
> and air conditioning dry out the interior air. In order to stand 
up  
> to this kind of stress, the wood needs to be dried to a low 
moisture  
> content.
> 
> The outdoor humidity is irrelevant.
> 
> Regards,
> PianoBench
> 
> 
> On Aug 28, 2007, at 3:25 PM, rondisklavier wrote:
> 
> > --- In disklavier@yahoogroups.com, "Carol Beigel" <thecarolb@>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > For instance, it is cheaper to manufacture a piano for the 
Asian
> > market
> > > because the wood does not need to to kiln dried to 5% moisture
> > content to
> >
> > Carol,
> >
> > Asia is much bigger than America. There is not only one climate 
in
> > Asia. How about people in Hawaii? Does Yamaha make a special 
piano for
> > people in Hawaii or people in Texas? Your argument just does not 
make
> > sense and without base. And about the connectors, Yamaha hires 
cheap
> > labor in many places, do you think that they expect these low 
paid
> > laborers to do soldering? I did work for a month in Yamaha 
factory,
> > everything is well planned, everything just needs to be 
connected...

> >
> >
> >
>

I guess it will crack into small pieces....:))
It just does not make sense, does it!!!


--- In disklavier@yahoogroups.com, John Isella <jjisella@...> wrote:
>
> So what do I do with my Disklavier that I have here in Florida 
when I  
> move to Phoenix?
> 
> 
> 
> On Aug 28, 2007, at 8:16 AM, Carol Beigel wrote:
> 
> > Would be nice maybe, but that is not how it works.  It is 
extremely
> > difficult to get Disklavier parts in the US for graymarket 
units.   
> > The piano
> > parts are often different as their dimensions are not always 
the  
> > same.  The
> > pianos will not hold up very well in dryness caused by central 
heating
> > systems.
> >
> > The electronic parts are not UL approved and therefore can 
create a
> > liability for the supplier.  On a gray market Disklavier, many  
> > connections
> > are soldered and not easy to repair; but their made-for-the US  
> > counterparts
> > have nice little connectors on both the circuit boards and the 
wires.
> >
> > Mostly people who import gray market pianos are smaller 
operators and
> > wholesalers.  They are not bound by Yamaha's service bonds with 
their
> > dealers.
> >
> > And lastly, Yamaha is not just one big corporation.  The U.S.  
> > Division, the
> > Canadian, the Japanese, etc. divisions are completely 
independent  
> > from one
> > another.  They do not have a central supplier.  Pianos are made  
> > differently
> > for these different markets because it costs a lot more money 
to  
> > make a
> > piano for a country that has homes whose moisture contents is 
very low
> > during winter.
> >
> > In my opinion as a piano and Disklavier technician, I would 
never  
> > recommend
> > purchasing a graymarket piano or Disklavier.  Those up front 
supposed
> > savings can be a huge headache if the piano ever needs 
servicing.   
> > One good
> > thunderstorm can wipe out your investment.
> >
> > Carol Beigel
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "rondisklavier" <setiawansr@...>
> > To: <disklavier@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2007 1:46 AM
> > Subject: [disklavier] Re: gray market disklaviers (was owners 
manual)
> >
> >
> >> I really believe people also can get gray Yamaha parts easily 
from
> >> abroad. If they can import such a humagous piano, importing 
small
> >> parts should not be a problem. Therefore, I really do not think 
that
> >> people need to worry about buying gray pianos, especially if the
> >> price is very reasonable. I myself just bought MX100II made for 
US.
> >> I personally do not want to have unnecessary hazels if my piano 
is
> >> broken and need to get parts from outside of the US. But for 
those
> >> who have bought gray pianos, I do not think that it is the end 
of
> >> the world if their pianos are broken. The chance of Yamaha 
pianos go
> >> bad is very small.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --- In disklavier@yahoogroups.com, "George F. Litterst"
> >> <PianoBench@> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Good evening, everyone.
> >>>
> >>> I don't know the details about how parts are controlled. 
However,
> >> my
> >>> local piano technician tells me that he is required to produce 
a
> >>> serial number when he orders a part from Yamaha.
> >>>
> >>> Regards,
> >>> PianoBench
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Aug 27, 2007, at 11:51 PM, rondisklavier wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> --- In disklavier@yahoogroups.com, "George F. Litterst"
> >>>> <PianoBench@> wrote:
> >>>> I have another question "How does Yamaha know whether they are
> >>>> selling parts to fix a gray market piano?". Does Yamaha only 
sell
> >>>> parts through their dealers?
> >>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> If you purchase a piano that was not made for North America,
> >> you
> >>>>> cannot get parts and service from Yamaha Corporation of
> >> America.
> >>>> And,
> >>>>> it is advisable to keep up the relative humidity in your home
> >>>> year
> >>>>> round.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Regards,
> >>>>> PianoBench
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Aug 26, 2007, at 11:57 PM, rondisklavier wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> I always have question regarding the statement below. How
> >> Yamaha
> >>>>>> manufactured for special market, for example US. US climate
> >> is
> >>>> not one
> >>>>>> climate. There are as many climate as those of in Asia (from
> >>>> South
> >>>>>> East Asia to Japan). In addition, when I was in my senior
> >> year in
> >>>>>> college, I had a practical training in Yamaha factory in
> >> Jakarta,
> >>>>>> Indonesia, and I was not aware that they make different
> >> pianos
> >>>> for
> >>>>>> different climates.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> --- In disklavier@yahoogroups.com, "Carol Beigel" 
<carolrpt@>
> >>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>> Their
> >>>>>>> products are manufactured specifically for different
> >> markets.
> >>>> The
> >>>>>> pianos in
> >>>>>>> particular are not interchangeable!
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Carol Beigel
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> To Post a message to the group, send it to:    
> >> disklavier@...
> >>
> >> To Post a private message to Todd Muncy, the group's founder and
> >> moderator, send it to:
> >> disklavier-owner@...
> >>
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> >> http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier
> >>
> >> THINKING OF LEAVING THE GROUP?
> >> If you are thinking of unsubcribing because you are getting 
too  
> >> much mail,
> >> go the the web site and change your email delivery option  
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group.   
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> >> insist on leaving us completely send a blank email to:
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> >> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> >> Version: 7.5.484 / Virus Database: 269.12.9/975 - Release 
Date:  
> >> 8/26/2007
> >> 9:34 PM
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > To Post a message to the group, send it to:    
> > disklavier@...
> >
> > To Post a private message to Todd Muncy, the group's founder 
and  
> > moderator, send it to:
> > disklavier-owner@...
> >
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> >
> > THINKING OF LEAVING THE GROUP?
> > If you are thinking of unsubcribing because you are getting too  
> > much mail, go the the web site and change your email delivery  
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your  
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send a  

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> > disklavier-subscribe@... or give them this link:
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> > Yahoo! Groups Links
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> >
>

The point is that I believe Yamaha uses one kind of wood for every 
destination. They cannot assume that the pianos (especially grand 
and disklavier) will be used by poor people in Asia who do not have 
airconditioner at their home. If they use this assumption, they will 
use less expensive drying process. As a result those pianos made 
with this assumption will crack once they face a dry 
airconditionered house. You have to know that people who purchase 
grand or disklavier are rich people who have their house 
airconditionered for 24/7. I just do not believe the notion that 
Yamaha made various pianos for different destination because of the 
aforementioned logic and also I had a month of practical training in 
Yamaha factory. I asked the workers about this.

RS



--- In disklavier@yahoogroups.com, Jimmy Lewis <JimmyM@...> wrote:
>
> I don't know why this debate has been going so strong about 
different  
> piano.
> 
> Let me just say dear Sir, that I live in Canada, where the winter 
are  
> cold and dry.  My house will vary from 30% to 80 % humidity
> during a year period.  I also have central air, in summer the 
average  
> humidity factor is between 40-50%.
> 
> So you can imagine that this kind of variation will really affect 
a  
> piano.  Has to know if there is a marketing effect from Yamaha  
> regarding this,
> I have to say that I have received a certificate indicating that 
my  
> piano was manufacturer from North America climate.  As I have  
> travelled accros the continent many times, one thing I am aware 
is,  
> if you buy any type of wood furniture from a very humid place and  
> bring it back here, it will crack during its first winter, so if  
> Yamaha is using different type of wood, or at least use wood that 
is  
> dry slow enough to respond to our climate.
> 
> That is why I believe Yamaha has made piano for respective 
country  
> climate. There might be a lot of similarities between some 
countries  
> but here I would not like to own a piano that was made in India.  
As  
> for the rest for the electronic parts, this is another story.
> 
> Hope this input will help and stop the big debate about cheaper  
> piano, you get what you pay for.
> 
> Jimmy
> Le 07-08-28 à 17:45, rondisklavier a écrit :
> 
> > George,
> >
> > You are correct about home in the US, Canada etc.
> > However, you assumption is that people in Asia do not use
> > airconditioning.Human beings are the same, nobody likes humid
> > environment. Therefore, the people who bought piano (especilly
> > Disklavier), they are NOT poor people. They also have central air
> > conditioner and they do turn on their air conditioner 24/7. As a
> > result, the environment where those pianos experience is exactly 
the
> > same as in US...As dry as in US. Are those pianos cracking? No, 
they
> > are not. I had my C5 in Indonesia for years and it did not crack 
(my
> > house is 100% air conditionered for 24 hours. How about the 
pianos
> > in Yamaha Music Foundation that are in 100% airconditioner
> > environment for years, do Yamaha Music Foundation in Indonesia 
needs
> > to import special pianos for their music schools?
> >
> > Sorry not to be argumentative, but we do need to know the 
condition
> > is Asia, before we assume that those people do not live in an
> > airconditioner environment. Once again, what you said is correct,
> > out side wheather has nothing to do. The inside climate is the 
more
> > important one.
> >
> > RS
> >
> > --- In disklavier@yahoogroups.com, "George F. Litterst"
> > <PianoBench@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Good afternoon, everyone.
> > >
> > > Regarding the comment below from rondisklavier:
> > >
> > > It is true that in a large country like the US, the average
> > humidity
> > > various from location to location. The key point, however, is
> > this:
> > > No matter where you go in the US and Canada, in all likelihood,
> > the
> > > indoor environment has central heating and/or air conditioning
> > that
> > > is active for a significant portion of the year. Both central
> > heating
> > > and air conditioning dry out the interior air. In order to 
stand
> > up
> > > to this kind of stress, the wood needs to be dried to a low
> > moisture
> > > content.
> > >
> > > The outdoor humidity is irrelevant.
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > > PianoBench
> > >
> > >
> > > On Aug 28, 2007, at 3:25 PM, rondisklavier wrote:
> > >
> > > > --- In disklavier@yahoogroups.com, "Carol Beigel" 
<thecarolb@>
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > For instance, it is cheaper to manufacture a piano for the
> > Asian
> > > > market
> > > > > because the wood does not need to to kiln dried to 5% 
moisture
> > > > content to
> > > >
> > > > Carol,
> > > >
> > > > Asia is much bigger than America. There is not only one 
climate
> > in
> > > > Asia. How about people in Hawaii? Does Yamaha make a special
> > piano for
> > > > people in Hawaii or people in Texas? Your argument just does 
not
> > make
> > > > sense and without base. And about the connectors, Yamaha 
hires

> > cheap
> > > > labor in many places, do you think that they expect these low
> > paid
> > > > laborers to do soldering? I did work for a month in Yamaha
> > factory,
> > > > everything is well planned, everything just needs to be
> > connected...
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > 
> 
> Jimmy L.
>

rondisklavier wrote:
> Carol,
>
> I used to have my practical training in Yamaha factory for my 
> internship.
> I asked the workers there whether they make different pianos for 
> different destination, they told me that they DID NOT make piano for 
> specific destination, all pianos were made the same. Regarding the 
> electronics connection, all connections are not soldered, everything 
> is connected by connectors. It cost too much to have technicians to 
> solder things...The chance of them making mistake is also high. 
>
> I am not a piano sellers or have anything to do with piano industry, 
> I just do not believe that Yamaha makes pianos differently for 
> different market. It will cost them too much monies, in addition, 
> Japanese manufacturing is very very automated so doing different way 
> for different market is utterly impossible.
>   

Ron - out of interest, where was the factory?

Regards,

James

Jakarata, Indonesia. They make baby grand for American market.


--- In disklavier@yahoogroups.com, James Fry <groups@...> wrote:
>
> rondisklavier wrote:
> > Carol,
> >
> > I used to have my practical training in Yamaha factory for my 
> > internship.
> > I asked the workers there whether they make different pianos for 
> > different destination, they told me that they DID NOT make piano 
for 
> > specific destination, all pianos were made the same. Regarding 
the 
> > electronics connection, all connections are not soldered, 
everything 
> > is connected by connectors. It cost too much to have technicians 
to 
> > solder things...The chance of them making mistake is also high. 
> >
> > I am not a piano sellers or have anything to do with piano 
industry, 
> > I just do not believe that Yamaha makes pianos differently for 
> > different market. It will cost them too much monies, in 
addition, 
> > Japanese manufacturing is very very automated so doing different 
way 

> > for different market is utterly impossible.
> >   
> 
> Ron - out of interest, where was the factory?
> 
> Regards,
> 
> James
>

This is a sarcastic comment. No problem John, you can move anywhere in the USA (even Hawaii or Alaska, and maybe Canada and Mexico) But Yamaha does not

David Gardner wrote:
> May I kindly suggest that those that are currently interested in this 
> current round of "Grey Market" issues, take the conversation private?  
> I think I have had enough for the moment on this subject.
>  
> Thanks
>
Then mark the thread as such in your mail client and don't read the rest 
of the posts. Discussions like this are a valuable resource for the 
archives.

No it doesn't, it's a lot of crap. :)

With the air on here full time in Fl it's 60% humidity, if I move to  
Phoenix it will routinely get below 10%, stay within the US all would  
be ok by Y. If I move to Europe all bets are off...

The BS meter is pegged on this one.  ;)

JI

On Aug 28, 2007, at 5:56 PM, rondisklavier wrote:

> I guess it will crack into small pieces....:))
> It just does not make sense, does it!!!
>
>
> --- In disklavier@yahoogroups.com, John Isella <jjisella@...> wrote:
>>
>> So what do I do with my Disklavier that I have here in Florida
> when I
>> move to Phoenix?
>>
>>
>>
>> On Aug 28, 2007, at 8:16 AM, Carol Beigel wrote:
>>
>>> Would be nice maybe, but that is not how it works.  It is
> extremely
>>> difficult to get Disklavier parts in the US for graymarket
> units.
>>> The piano
>>> parts are often different as their dimensions are not always
> the
>>> same.  The
>>> pianos will not hold up very well in dryness caused by central
> heating
>>> systems.
>>>
>>> The electronic parts are not UL approved and therefore can
> create a
>>> liability for the supplier.  On a gray market Disklavier, many
>>> connections
>>> are soldered and not easy to repair; but their made-for-the US
>>> counterparts
>>> have nice little connectors on both the circuit boards and the
> wires.
>>>
>>> Mostly people who import gray market pianos are smaller
> operators and
>>> wholesalers.  They are not bound by Yamaha's service bonds with
> their
>>> dealers.
>>>
>>> And lastly, Yamaha is not just one big corporation.  The U.S.
>>> Division, the
>>> Canadian, the Japanese, etc. divisions are completely
> independent
>>> from one
>>> another.  They do not have a central supplier.  Pianos are made
>>> differently
>>> for these different markets because it costs a lot more money
> to
>>> make a
>>> piano for a country that has homes whose moisture contents is
> very low
>>> during winter.
>>>
>>> In my opinion as a piano and Disklavier technician, I would
> never
>>> recommend
>>> purchasing a graymarket piano or Disklavier.  Those up front
> supposed
>>> savings can be a huge headache if the piano ever needs
> servicing.
>>> One good
>>> thunderstorm can wipe out your investment.
>>>
>>> Carol Beigel
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "rondisklavier" <setiawansr@...>
>>> To: <disklavier@yahoogroups.com>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2007 1:46 AM
>>> Subject: [disklavier] Re: gray market disklaviers (was owners
> manual)
>>>
>>>
>>>> I really believe people also can get gray Yamaha parts easily
> from
>>>> abroad. If they can import such a humagous piano, importing
> small
>>>> parts should not be a problem. Therefore, I really do not think
> that
>>>> people need to worry about buying gray pianos, especially if the
>>>> price is very reasonable. I myself just bought MX100II made for
> US.
>>>> I personally do not want to have unnecessary hazels if my piano
> is
>>>> broken and need to get parts from outside of the US. But for
> those
>>>> who have bought gray pianos, I do not think that it is the end
> of
>>>> the world if their pianos are broken. The chance of Yamaha
> pianos go
>>>> bad is very small.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --- In disklavier@yahoogroups.com, "George F. Litterst"
>>>> <PianoBench@> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Good evening, everyone.
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't know the details about how parts are controlled.
> However,
>>>> my
>>>>> local piano technician tells me that he is required to produce
> a
>>>>> serial number when he orders a part from Yamaha.
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>> PianoBench
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Aug 27, 2007, at 11:51 PM, rondisklavier wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> --- In disklavier@yahoogroups.com, "George F. Litterst"
>>>>>> <PianoBench@> wrote:
>>>>>> I have another question "How does Yamaha know whether they are
>>>>>> selling parts to fix a gray market piano?". Does Yamaha only
> sell
>>>>>> parts through their dealers?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If you purchase a piano that was not made for North America,
>>>> you
>>>>>>> cannot get parts and service from Yamaha Corporation of
>>>> America.
>>>>>> And,
>>>>>>> it is advisable to keep up the relative humidity in your home
>>>>>> year
>>>>>>> round.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>> PianoBench
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Aug 26, 2007, at 11:57 PM, rondisklavier wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I always have question regarding the statement below. How
>>>> Yamaha
>>>>>>>> manufactured for special market, for example US. US climate
>>>> is
>>>>>> not one
>>>>>>>> climate. There are as many climate as those of in Asia (from
>>>>>> South
>>>>>>>> East Asia to Japan). In addition, when I was in my senior
>>>> year in
>>>>>>>> college, I had a practical training in Yamaha factory in
>>>> Jakarta,
>>>>>>>> Indonesia, and I was not aware that they make different
>>>> pianos
>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>> different climates.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --- In disklavier@yahoogroups.com, "Carol Beigel"
> <carolrpt@>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Their
>>>>>>>>> products are manufactured specifically for different
>>>> markets.
>>>>>> The
>>>>>>>> pianos in
>>>>>>>>> particular are not interchangeable!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Carol Beigel
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> To Post a message to the group, send it to:
>>>> disklavier@...
>>>>
>>>> To Post a private message to Todd Muncy, the group's founder and
>>>> moderator, send it to:
>>>> disklavier-owner@...
>>>>
>>>> To reach our group's web site go to:
>>>> http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier
>>>>
>>>> THINKING OF LEAVING THE GROUP?
>>>> If you are thinking of unsubcribing because you are getting
> too
>>>> much mail,
>>>> go the the web site and change your email delivery option
>>>> instead.  That
>>>> will fix the problem, while maintaining your access to the
> group.
>>>> If you
>>>> insist on leaving us completely send a blank email to:
>>>> disklavier-unsubscribe@...
>>>>
>>>> Know someone who wants to join?  Have them send a blank email
> to:
>>>> disklavier-subscribe@... or give them this link:
>>>> http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier/join
>>>>
>>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -- 
>>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>>>> Version: 7.5.484 / Virus Database: 269.12.9/975 - Release
> Date:
>>>> 8/26/2007
>>>> 9:34 PM
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> To Post a message to the group, send it to:
>>> disklavier@...
>>>
>>> To Post a private message to Todd Muncy, the group's founder
> and
>>> moderator, send it to:
>>> disklavier-owner@...
>>>
>>> To reach our group's web site go to:
>>> http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier
>>>
>>> THINKING OF LEAVING THE GROUP?
>>> If you are thinking of unsubcribing because you are getting too
>>> much mail, go the the web site and change your email delivery
>>> option instead.  That will fix the problem, while maintaining
> your
>>> access to the group.  If you insist on leaving us completely
> send a
>>> blank email to:
>>> disklavier-unsubscribe@...
>>>
>>> Know someone who wants to join?  Have them send a blank email to:
>>> disklavier-subscribe@... or give them this link:
>>> http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier/join
>>>
>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
>
>
> To Post a message to the group, send it to:    
> disklavier@...
>
> To Post a private message to Todd Muncy, the group's founder and  
> moderator, send it to:
> disklavier-owner@...
>
> To reach our group's web site go to:
> http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier
>
> THINKING OF LEAVING THE GROUP?
> If you are thinking of unsubcribing because you are getting too  
> much mail, go the the web site and change your email delivery  
> option instead.  That will fix the problem, while maintaining your  
> access to the group.  If you insist on leaving us completely send a  
> blank email to:
> disklavier-unsubscribe@...
>
> Know someone who wants to join?  Have them send a blank email to:
> disklavier-subscribe@... or give them this link:
> http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier/join
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

Judging by the service manuals for Disklaviers (from the very first ones in the mid 80's right up to now) there is very little difference between pianos sold in different markets, at least as far as spare parts are concerned. For most parts, there is only one part number, i.e. you get the same part, wherever in the world you order it. The piano/case parts appear to be the same, the only difference lies in the electronic parts relating to the power supply area, and the software provided for the Japanese market to give Japanese displays (and even that is ofted accomplished by a simple switch instead of a different part). The only difference in spec for the North American market appeared with the new Mark IV series, where they get the tablet controller which is unavailable in other markets, and they are the only ones who currently have access to the latest version of the software. Even with the recently introduced RoHS regulation in Europe, there has been no change in part numbers, i.e even electronic parts shipped to the US are likley to comply with this European legislation - it's cheaper than setting up separate production lines.

I would assume that, since Disklaviers are pulled straight from the piano production line (i.e. there is absolutely no difference between a straight piano and a Disklavier before the addition of the electronics), there would be no difference between parts destined for different markets.

The one thing to bear in mind, is that upright piano models were/are not available in every market, so nobody outside the US would have ever seen any of the US produced models, the US may not have seen any Kemble produced models, and Japan has many models which were never sold anywhere else.

I know that at least in some European countries, there is no problem getting parts for grey imports, even if it takes a few weeks to get them from Japan, as long as the correct part can be identified - which can be difficult if the only available parts list is in Japanese. ;) The only reservation concerns electronic products, in that if you try to fit non-European power supply parts or convert a grey import to CE spec, you are treading on dodgy legal ground.

athomik

On Aug 28 2007, rondisklavier wrote:

>Carol,
>
>I used to have my practical training in Yamaha factory for my
>internship.
>I asked the workers there whether they make different pianos for
>different destination, they told me that they DID NOT make piano for
>specific destination, all pianos were made the same. Regarding the
>electronics connection, all connections are not soldered, everything
>is connected by connectors. It cost too much to have technicians to
>solder things...The chance of them making mistake is also high.
>
>I am not a piano sellers or have anything to do with piano industry,
>I just do not believe that Yamaha makes pianos differently for
>different market. It will cost them too much monies, in addition,
>Japanese manufacturing is very very automated so doing different way
>for different market is utterly impossible.
>
>Ron
>
>
>
>;--- In disklavier@yahoogroups.com, "Carol Beigel"
>wrote:
>>
>> Would be nice maybe, but that is not how it works. It is
>extremely
>> difficult to get Disklavier parts in the US for graymarket units.
>The piano
>;> parts are often different as their dimensions are not always the
>same. The
>> pianos will not hold up very well in dryness caused by central
>heating
>> systems.
>>
>> The electronic parts are not UL approved and therefore can create
>a
>> liability for the supplier. On a gray market Disklavier, many
>connections
>> are soldered and not easy to repair; but their made-for-the US
>counterparts
>> have nice little connectors on both the circuit boards and the
>wires.
>>
>> Mostly people who import gray market pianos are smaller operators
>and
>> wholesalers. They are not bound by Yamaha's service bonds with
>their
>> dealers.
>>
>> And lastly, Yamaha is not just one big corporation. The U.S.
>Division, the
>> Canadian, the Japanese, etc. divisions are completely independent
>from one
>> another. They do not have a central supplier. Pianos are made
>differently
>> for these different markets because it costs a lot more money to
>make a
>> piano for a country that has homes whose moisture contents is very
>low
>> during winter.
>>
>> In my opinion as a piano and Disklavier technician, I would never
>recommend
>> purchasing a graymarket piano or Disklavier. Those up front
>supposed
>> savings can be a huge headache if the piano ever needs servicing.
>One good
>> thunderstorm can wipe out your investment.
>>
>> Carol Beigel
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "rondisklavier"
>> To:
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2007 1:46 AM
>> Subject: [disklavier] Re: gray market disklaviers (was owners
>;manual)
>>
>>
>> >I really believe people also can get gray Yamaha parts easily from
>> > abroad. If they can import such a humagous piano, importing small
>> > parts should not be a problem. Therefore, I really do not think
>that
>> > people need to worry about buying gray pianos, especially if the
>> > price is very reasonable. I myself just bought MX100II made for
>US.
>> > I personally do not want to have unnecessary hazels if my piano
>is
>> > broken and need to get parts from outside of the US. But for
>those
>> > who have bought gray pianos, I do not think that it is the end of
>> > the world if their pianos are broken. The chance of Yamaha
>pianos go
>> > bad is very small.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --- In disklavier@...m, "George F. Litterst"
>> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Good evening, everyone.
>> >>
>> >> I don't know the details about how parts are controlled.
>However,
>> > my
>> >> local piano technician tells me that he is required to produce a
>> >> serial number when he orders a part from Yamaha.
>> >>
>> >> Regards,
>> >> PianoBench
>> >>
>> >>
>>; >> On Aug 27, 2007, at 11:51 PM, rondisklavier wrote:
>>; >>
>> >> > --- In disklavier@yahoogroups.com, "George F. Litterst"
>> >> > wrote:
>> >> > I have another question "How does Yamaha know whether they are
>> >> > selling parts to fix a gray market piano?". Does Yamaha only
>sell
>> >> > parts through their dealers?
>> >> >
>>; >> > >
>> >> > > If you purchase a piano that was not made for North America,
>> > you
>> >> > > cannot get parts and service from Yamaha Corporation of
>> > America.
>> >> > And,
>> >> > > it is advisable to keep up the relative humidity in your
>home
>> >> > year
>> >> > > round.
>> >> > >
>> >> > > Regards,
>> >> > > PianoBench
>> >> > >
>> >> > >
>> >> > > On Aug 26, 2007, at 11:57 PM, rondisklavier wrote:
>> >> > >
>> >> > > > I always have question regarding the statement below. How
>> > Yamaha
>> >> > > > manufactured for special market, for example US. US
>climate
>> > is
>;> >> > not one
>> >> > > > climate. There are as many climate as those of in Asia
>(from
>> >> > South
>> >> > > > East Asia to Japan). In addition, when I was in my senior
>> > year in
>> >> > > > college, I had a practical training in Yamaha factory in
>> > Jakarta,
>> >> > > > Indonesia, and I was not aware that they make different
>> > pianos
>> >> > for
>> >> > > > different climates.
>> >> > > >;
>> >> > > > --- In disklavier@yahoogroups.com, "Carol Beigel"
>
>> >> > > >; wrote:
>> >> > > > Their
>> >> > > > > products are manufactured specifically for different
>> > markets.
>> >> > The
>> >> > > > pianos in
>> >> > > > > particular are not interchangeable!
>> >> > > > >
>> >> > > > >
>> >> > > > > Carol Beigel
>> >> > > > >
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > >
>> >> >; >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > To Post a message to the group, send it to: disklavier@...
>> >
>> > To Post a private message to Todd Muncy, the group's founder and
>> > moderator, send it to:
>> > disklavier-owner@...
>> >
>> > To reach our group's web site go to:
>> > http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier
>> >
>> > THINKING OF LEAVING THE GROUP?
>> > If you are thinking of unsubcribing because you are getting too
>much mail,
>> > go the the web site and change your email delivery option
>instead. That
>> > will fix the problem, while maintaining your access to the
>group. If you
>> > insist on leaving us completely send a blank email to:
>> > disklavier-unsubscribe@...
>> >
>> > Know someone who wants to join? Have them send a blank email to:
>> > disklavier-subscribe@... or give them this link:
>> > http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier/join
>> >
>> > Yahoo! Groups Links
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > No virus found in this incoming message.
>> > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>> > Version: 7.5.484 / Virus Database: 269.12.9/975 - Release Date:
>8/26/2007
>> > 9:34 PM
>> >
>> >
>>
>
>
>

Richard,

There is no doubt that Carol is very knowledgable in disklavier. 
However, this is a discussion group. None of the postings from the 
opposing view from that of Carol's are disrespect or codecending. 
Your posting is the one that sounded arrogant and hostile, just see 
your opening statement "Whom do you believe"

Athomik or me and others, just to try to find out the truth base on 
the size of the pianos and other means (my own experience working at 
Yamaha factory) to find out whether Yamaha really makes different 
pianos for American market. We are not advocating gray market 
pianos. Once again we just want find the truth of Yamaha statement. 
Based on the observations, it just seems very unlikely Yamaha 
changes their production processes. You can imagine how costly to 
customize every single components just for US market. On the other 
had, it will be a costly process to build non US market because they 
have to hire skillful technicians to assemble non US market pianos, 
(they have to solder things instead of using connectors). These are 
the logic that I use. If you do not agree with the logic, give us 
the reasoning. Not only saying "Whom do you believe". It is not 
conductive in a newsgroup discussion forum. It is the same like 
saying "I am the king, you listen what I say".

I personally own a disklavier so called made for American market (I 
have checked the serial number in YCA website). I am just curious 
whether there is any different between the American market's pianos 
and the non American pianos. 

RS



--- In disklavier@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Kerr" <KerrRichardH@...> 
wrote:
>
> Whom do you believe--a highly, skilled technician, who has devoted 
a near lifetime to the art of servicing Disklaviers every day,--or 
opinionated, arrogant "experts" whose logic relies solely on 
assumption, presumption, and downright guessing for their claimed 
knowledge and expertise?
> 
> I will go with the former, whom we have all learned to trust 
implicitly for accurate, unequivocal, and above all, practical 
information and advice. It is the height of arrogance to argue and 
speculate about "in the field" experience of such significent depth 
and dimension. We are well aware of the credentials of the former. 
Where and what are the credentails of those with all the opinions?
> 
> Based upon what I have read here, this is my simple reaction to 
the purchase of gray market pianos: Caveat Emptor! Buy one if you 
wish. Why not let this rest at that?
> 
> 
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
>   From: athomik 
>   To: disklavier@yahoogroups.com 
>   Sent: Friday, August 31, 2007 2:43 AM
>   Subject: Re: [disklavier] Re: gray market disklaviers (was 
owners manual)
> 
> 
> 
> 
>   Judging by the service manuals for Disklaviers (from the very 
first ones in the mid 80's right up to now) there is very little 
difference between pianos sold in different markets, at least as far 
as spare parts are concerned. For most parts, there is only one part 
number, i.e. you get the same part, wherever in the world you order 
it. The piano/case parts appear to be the same, the only difference 
lies in the electronic parts relating to the power supply area, and 
the software provided for the Japanese market to give Japanese 
displays (and even that is ofted accomplished by a simple switch 
instead of a different part). The only difference in spec for the 
North American market appeared with the new Mark IV series, where 
they get the tablet controller which is unavailable in other 
markets, and they are the only ones who currently have access to the 
latest version of the software. Even with the recently introduced 
RoHS regulation in Europe, there has been no change in part numbers, 
i.e even electronic parts shipped to the US are likley to comply 
with this European legislation - it's cheaper than setting up 
separate production lines. 
> 
>    I would assume that, since Disklaviers are pulled straight from 
the piano production line (i.e. there is absolutely no difference 
between a straight piano and a Disklavier before the addition of the 
electronics), there would be no difference between parts destined 
for different markets. 
> 
>   The one thing to bear in mind, is that upright piano models 
were/are not available in every market, so nobody outside the US 
would have ever seen any of the US produced models, the US may not 
have seen any Kemble produced models, and Japan has many models 
which were never sold anywhere else. 
> 
>   I know that at least in some European countries, there is no 
problem getting parts for grey imports, even if it takes a few weeks 
to get them from Japan, as long as the correct part can be 
identified - which can be difficult if the only available parts list 
is in Japanese. ;) The only reservation concerns electronic 
products, in that if you try to fit non-European power supply parts 
or convert a grey import to CE spec, you are treading on dodgy legal 
ground. 
> 
> 
>   athomik
> 
>   On Aug 28 2007, rondisklavier wrote: 
> 
>   >Carol,
>   >
>   >I used to have my practical training in Yamaha factory for my 
>   >internship.
>   >I asked the workers there whether they make different pianos 
for 
>   >different destination, they told me that they DID NOT make 
piano for 
>   >specific destination, all pianos were made the same. Regarding 
the 
>   >electronics connection, all connections are not soldered, 
everything 
>   >is connected by connectors. It cost too much to have 
technicians to 
>   >solder things...The chance of them making mistake is also high. 
>   >
>   >I am not a piano sellers or have anything to do with piano 
industry, 
>   >I just do not believe that Yamaha makes pianos differently for 
>   >different market. It will cost them too much monies, in 
addition, 
>   >Japanese manufacturing is very very automated so doing 
different way 
>   >for different market is utterly impossible.
>   >
>   >Ron
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >--- In disklavier@yahoogroups.com, "Carol Beigel" 
>   >wrote:
>   >>
>   >> Would be nice maybe, but that is not how it works. It is 
>   >extremely 
>   >> difficult to get Disklavier parts in the US for graymarket 
units. 
>   >The piano 
>   >> parts are often different as their dimensions are not always 
the 
>   >same. The 
>   >> pianos will not hold up very well in dryness caused by 
central 
>   >heating 
>   >> systems.
>   >> 
>   >> The electronic parts are not UL approved and therefore can 
create 
>   >a 
>   >> liability for the supplier. On a gray market Disklavier, many 
>   >connections 
>   >> are soldered and not easy to repair; but their made-for-the 
US 
>   >counterparts 
>   >> have nice little connectors on both the circuit boards and 
the 
>   >wires.
>   >> 
>   >> Mostly people who import gray market pianos are smaller 
operators 
>   >and 
>   >> wholesalers. They are not bound by Yamaha's service bonds 
with 
>   >their 
>   >> dealers.
>   >> 
>   >> And lastly, Yamaha is not just one big corporation. The U.S. 
>   >Division, the 
>   >> Canadian, the Japanese, etc. divisions are completely 
independent 
>   >from one 
>   >> another. They do not have a central supplier. Pianos are made 
>   >differently 
>   >> for these different markets because it costs a lot more money 
to 
>   >make a 
>   >> piano for a country that has homes whose moisture contents is 
very 
>   >low 
>   >> during winter.
>   >> 
>   >> In my opinion as a piano and Disklavier technician, I would 
never 
>   >recommend 
>   >> purchasing a graymarket piano or Disklavier. Those up front 
>   >supposed 
>   >> savings can be a huge headache if the piano ever needs 
servicing. 
>   >One good 
>   >> thunderstorm can wipe out your investment.
>   >> 
>   >> Carol Beigel
>   >> 
>   >> ----- Original Message ----- 
>   >> From: "rondisklavier" 
>   >> To: 
>   >> Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2007 1:46 AM
>   >> Subject: [disklavier] Re: gray market disklaviers (was owners 
>   >manual)
>   >> 
>   >> 
>   >> >I really believe people also can get gray Yamaha parts 
easily from
>   >> > abroad. If they can import such a humagous piano, importing 
small
>   >> > parts should not be a problem. Therefore, I really do not 
think 
>   >that
>   >> > people need to worry about buying gray pianos, especially 
if the
>   >> > price is very reasonable. I myself just bought MX100II made 
for 
>   >US.
>   >> > I personally do not want to have unnecessary hazels if my 
piano 
>   >is
>   >> > broken and need to get parts from outside of the US. But 
for 
>   >those
>   >> > who have bought gray pianos, I do not think that it is the 
end of
>   >> > the world if their pianos are broken. The chance of Yamaha 
>   >pianos go
>   >> > bad is very small.
>   >> >
>   >> >
>   >> >
>   >> >
>   >> > --- In disklavier@yahoogroups.com, "George F. Litterst"
>   >> > wrote:
>   >> >>
>   >> >> Good evening, everyone.
>   >> >>
>   >> >> I don't know the details about how parts are controlled. 
>   >However,
>   >> > my
>   >> >> local piano technician tells me that he is required to 
produce a
>   >> >> serial number when he orders a part from Yamaha.
>   >> >>
>   >> >> Regards,
>   >> >> PianoBench
>   >> >>
>   >> >>
>   >> >> On Aug 27, 2007, at 11:51 PM, rondisklavier wrote:
>   >> >>
>   >> >> > --- In disklavier@yahoogroups.com, "George F. Litterst"
>   >> >> > wrote:
>   >> >> > I have another question "How does Yamaha know whether 
they are
>   >> >> > selling parts to fix a gray market piano?". Does Yamaha 
only 
>   >sell
>   >> >> > parts through their dealers?
>   >> >> >
>   >> >> > >
>   >> >> > > If you purchase a piano that was not made for North 
America,
>   >> > you
>   >> >> > > cannot get parts and service from Yamaha Corporation of
>   >> > America.
>   >> >> > And,
>   >> >> > > it is advisable to keep up the relative humidity in 
your 
>   >home
>   >> >> > year
>   >> >> > > round.
>   >> >> > >
>   >> >> > > Regards,
>   >> >> > > PianoBench
>   >> >> > >
>   >> >> > >
>   >> >> > > On Aug 26, 2007, at 11:57 PM, rondisklavier wrote:
>   >> >> > >
>   >> >> > > > I always have question regarding the statement 
below. How
>   >> > Yamaha
>   >> >> > > > manufactured for special market, for example US. US 
>   >climate
>   >> > is
>   >> >> > not one
>   >> >> > > > climate. There are as many climate as those of in 
Asia 
>   >(from
>   >> >> > South
>   >> >> > > > East Asia to Japan). In addition, when I was in my 
senior
>   >> > year in
>   >> >> > > > college, I had a practical training in Yamaha 
factory in
>   >> > Jakarta,
>   >> >> > > > Indonesia, and I was not aware that they make 
different
>   >> > pianos
>   >> >> > for
>   >> >> > > > different climates.
>   >> >> > > >
>   >> >> > > > --- In disklavier@yahoogroups.com, "Carol Beigel" 
>   >
>   >> >> > > > wrote:
>   >> >> > > > Their
>   >> >> > > > > products are manufactured specifically for 
different
>   >> > markets.
>   >> >> > The
>   >> >> > > > pianos in
>   >> >> > > > > particular are not interchangeable!
>   >> >> > > > >
>   >> >> > > > >
>   >> >> > > > > Carol Beigel
>   >> >> > > > >
>   >> >> > > >
>   >> >> > > >
>   >> >> > > >
>   >> >> > >
>   >> >> >
>   >> >> >
>   >> >> >
>   >> >>
>   >> >
>   >> >
>   >> >
>   >> >
>   >> > To Post a message to the group, send it to: disklavier@
>   >> >
>   >> > To Post a private message to Todd Muncy, the group's 
founder and 
>   >> > moderator, send it to:
>   >> > disklavier-owner@
>   >> >
>   >> > To reach our group's web site go to:
>   >> > http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier
>   >> >
>   >> > THINKING OF LEAVING THE GROUP?
>   >> > If you are thinking of unsubcribing because you are getting 
too 
>   >much mail, 
>   >> > go the the web site and change your email delivery option 
>   >instead. That 
>   >> > will fix the problem, while maintaining your access to the 
>   >group. If you 
>   >> > insist on leaving us completely send a blank email to:
>   >> > disklavier-unsubscribe@
>   >> >
>   >> > Know someone who wants to join? Have them send a blank 
email to:
>   >> > disklavier-subscribe@ or give them this link:
>   >> > http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier/join
>   >> >
>   >> > Yahoo! Groups Links
>   >> >
>   >> >
>   >> >
>   >> >
>   >> >
>   >> > -- 
>   >> > No virus found in this incoming message.
>   >> > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>   >> > Version: 7.5.484 / Virus Database: 269.12.9/975 - Release 
Date: 

>   >8/26/2007 
>   >> > 9:34 PM
>   >> >
>   >> >
>   >>
>   >
>   >
>   >
>

Sorry, what I mean is conducive not conductive.
English is not my first language...


"If you do not agree with the logic, give us
the reasoning. Not only saying "Whom do you believe". It is not
conductive in a newsgroup discussion forum. It is the same like
saying "I am the king, you listen what I say".

I can't be 100% sure that certain parts, such as the soundboard and case are still treated differently for the US market (I believe that may have been the case in the past, but that for some time now wood for all markets is treated the same)

I was referring specifically to the problem of getting parts for gray market pianos in the US. I based my comments on the fact that I've worked on Disklaviers since they first became available outside Japan (1986), that Service manuals and parts lists are the same for anywhere in the world and that, apart from some electronic parts I mentioned, parts numbers listed in the manuals are the same for all markets , i.e. the parts ARE the same.

athomik

On Aug 31 2007, rondisklavier wrote:


>
>I personally own a disklavier so called made for American market (I
>have checked the serial number in YCA website). I am just curious
>whether there is any different between the American market's pianos
>and the non American pianos.
>
>RS
>
>
>
>--- In disklavier@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Kerr"
>wrote:
>>
>> Whom do you believe--a highly, skilled technician, who has devoted
>a near lifetime to the art of servicing Disklaviers every day,--or
>opinionated, arrogant "experts" whose logic relies solely on
>assumption, presumption, and downright guessing for their claimed
>knowledge and expertise?
>>
>> I will go with the former, whom we have all learned to trust
>implicitly for accurate, unequivocal, and above all, practical
>information and advice. It is the height of arrogance to argue and
>speculate about "in the field" experience of such significent depth
>and dimension. We are well aware of the credentials of the former.
>Where and what are the credentails of those with all the opinions?
>>
>> Based upon what I have read here, this is my simple reaction to
>the purchase of gray market pianos: Caveat Emptor! Buy one if you
>wish. Why not let this rest at that?
>>

> Once again we just want find the truth of Yamaha statement.

Which Yamaha statement would that be.   As weasel worded as the
article on buying used Disklaviers on YMA's website is, it doesn't
say anything of the sort.

http://www.yamaha.com/yamahavgn/CDA/ContentDetail/Text_WithCatMenu_XC/0
,,CNTID%25253D12175%252526CTID%25253D410010,00.html

I think there is an implicit message in the Yamaha Website. In 
addition, whenever I went to a Yamaha dealer, they explcitily said 
this.



--- In disklavier@yahoogroups.com, Ron Natalie <ron.natalie@...> wrote:

>
>  > Once again we just want find the truth of Yamaha statement.
> 
> Which Yamaha statement would that be.   As weasel worded as the
> article on buying used Disklaviers on YMA's website is, it doesn't
> say anything of the sort.
>

My Disklavier was purchased new in the US and I have no plans to 
purchase another piano so this argument is purely academic for me.  None 
the less I find this topic fascinating and appreciate the posts (with a 
few notable exceptions) on both sides of the issue.  I have a few 
questions (they are not intended to be sarcastic):

Do other piano manufactures dry non-US market pianos to substandard 
moisture levels in an effort to cut costs? 

What other markets require US standards for drying?  Are there no homes 
in northern Europe or Asia with forced air heat and/or very dry winter 
air?  Do these homes import US market pianos?

By the way, I live in the US and my home has neither AC nor forced air 
heating.

Respectfully,
Mark

Excellent questions! My doubts start from the same questions.



--- In disklavier@yahoogroups.com, Mark <marcus@...> wrote:

> What other markets require US standards for drying?  Are there no 
homes 
> in northern Europe or Asia with forced air heat and/or very dry 
winter 

> air?  Do these homes import US market pianos?
> Respectfully,
> Mark
>

Yes please, let's move on. 

--- In disklavier@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Kerr" <KerrRichardH@...> 
wrote:
>
> Whom do you believe--a highly, skilled technician, who has devoted 
a near lifetime to the art of servicing Disklaviers every day,--or 
opinionated, arrogant "experts" whose logic relies solely on 
assumption, presumption, and downright guessing for their claimed 
knowledge and expertise?
> 
> I will go with the former, whom we have all learned to trust 
implicitly for accurate, unequivocal, and above all, practical 
information and advice. It is the height of arrogance to argue and 
speculate about "in the field" experience of such significent depth 
and dimension. We are well aware of the credentials of the former. 
Where and what are the credentails of those with all the opinions?
> 
> Based upon what I have read here, this is my simple reaction to the 
purchase of gray market pianos: Caveat Emptor! Buy one if you wish. 
Why not let this rest at that?
> 
> 
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
>   From: athomik 
>   To: disklavier@yahoogroups.com 
>   Sent: Friday, August 31, 2007 2:43 AM
>   Subject: Re: [disklavier] Re: gray market disklaviers (was owners 
manual)
> 
> 
> 
> 
>   Judging by the service manuals for Disklaviers (from the very 
first ones in the mid 80's right up to now) there is very little 
difference between pianos sold in different markets, at least as far 
as spare parts are concerned. For most parts, there is only one part 
number, i.e. you get the same part, wherever in the world you order 
it. The piano/case parts appear to be the same, the only difference 
lies in the electronic parts relating to the power supply area, and 
the software provided for the Japanese market to give Japanese 
displays (and even that is ofted accomplished by a simple switch 
instead of a different part). The only difference in spec for the 
North American market appeared with the new Mark IV series, where 
they get the tablet controller which is unavailable in other markets, 
and they are the only ones who currently have access to the latest 
version of the software. Even with the recently introduced RoHS 
regulation in Europe, there has been no change in part numbers, i.e 
even electronic parts shipped to the US are likley to comply with 
this European legislation - it's cheaper than setting up separate 
production lines. 
> 
>    I would assume that, since Disklaviers are pulled straight from 
the piano production line (i.e. there is absolutely no difference 
between a straight piano and a Disklavier before the addition of the 
electronics), there would be no difference between parts destined for 
different markets. 
> 
>   The one thing to bear in mind, is that upright piano models 
were/are not available in every market, so nobody outside the US 
would have ever seen any of the US produced models, the US may not 
have seen any Kemble produced models, and Japan has many models which 
were never sold anywhere else. 
> 
>   I know that at least in some European countries, there is no 
problem getting parts for grey imports, even if it takes a few weeks 
to get them from Japan, as long as the correct part can be 
identified - which can be difficult if the only available parts list 
is in Japanese. ;) The only reservation concerns electronic products, 
in that if you try to fit non-European power supply parts or convert 
a grey import to CE spec, you are treading on dodgy legal ground. 
> 
> 
>   athomik
> 
>   On Aug 28 2007, rondisklavier wrote: 
> 
>   >Carol,
>   >
>   >I used to have my practical training in Yamaha factory for my 
>   >internship.
>   >I asked the workers there whether they make different pianos for 
>   >different destination, they told me that they DID NOT make piano 
for 
>   >specific destination, all pianos were made the same. Regarding 
the 
>   >electronics connection, all connections are not soldered, 
everything 
>   >is connected by connectors. It cost too much to have technicians 
to 
>   >solder things...The chance of them making mistake is also high. 
>   >
>   >I am not a piano sellers or have anything to do with piano 
industry, 
>   >I just do not believe that Yamaha makes pianos differently for 
>   >different market. It will cost them too much monies, in 
addition, 
>   >Japanese manufacturing is very very automated so doing different 
way 
>   >for different market is utterly impossible.
>   >
>   >Ron
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >--- In disklavier@yahoogroups.com, "Carol Beigel" 
>   >wrote:
>   >>
>   >> Would be nice maybe, but that is not how it works. It is 
>   >extremely 
>   >> difficult to get Disklavier parts in the US for graymarket 
units. 
>   >The piano 
>   >> parts are often different as their dimensions are not always 
the 
>   >same. The 
>   >> pianos will not hold up very well in dryness caused by central 
>   >heating 
>   >> systems.
>   >> 
>   >> The electronic parts are not UL approved and therefore can 
create 
>   >a 
>   >> liability for the supplier. On a gray market Disklavier, many 
>   >connections 
>   >> are soldered and not easy to repair; but their made-for-the US 
>   >counterparts 
>   >> have nice little connectors on both the circuit boards and the 
>   >wires.
>   >> 
>   >> Mostly people who import gray market pianos are smaller 
operators 
>   >and 
>   >> wholesalers. They are not bound by Yamaha's service bonds with 
>   >their 
>   >> dealers.
>   >> 
>   >> And lastly, Yamaha is not just one big corporation. The U.S. 
>   >Division, the 
>   >> Canadian, the Japanese, etc. divisions are completely 
independent 
>   >from one 
>   >> another. They do not have a central supplier. Pianos are made 
>   >differently 
>   >> for these different markets because it costs a lot more money 
to 
>   >make a 
>   >> piano for a country that has homes whose moisture contents is 
very 
>   >low 
>   >> during winter.
>   >> 
>   >> In my opinion as a piano and Disklavier technician, I would 
never 
>   >recommend 
>   >> purchasing a graymarket piano or Disklavier. Those up front 
>   >supposed 
>   >> savings can be a huge headache if the piano ever needs 
servicing. 
>   >One good 
>   >> thunderstorm can wipe out your investment.
>   >> 
>   >> Carol Beigel
>   >> 
>   >> ----- Original Message ----- 
>   >> From: "rondisklavier" 
>   >> To: 
>   >> Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2007 1:46 AM
>   >> Subject: [disklavier] Re: gray market disklaviers (was owners 
>   >manual)
>   >> 
>   >> 
>   >> >I really believe people also can get gray Yamaha parts easily 
from
>   >> > abroad. If they can import such a humagous piano, importing 
small
>   >> > parts should not be a problem. Therefore, I really do not 
think 
>   >that
>   >> > people need to worry about buying gray pianos, especially if 
the
>   >> > price is very reasonable. I myself just bought MX100II made 
for 
>   >US.
>   >> > I personally do not want to have unnecessary hazels if my 
piano 
>   >is
>   >> > broken and need to get parts from outside of the US. But for 
>   >those
>   >> > who have bought gray pianos, I do not think that it is the 
end of
>   >> > the world if their pianos are broken. The chance of Yamaha 
>   >pianos go
>   >> > bad is very small.
>   >> >
>   >> >
>   >> >
>   >> >
>   >> > --- In disklavier@yahoogroups.com, "George F. Litterst"
>   >> > wrote:
>   >> >>
>   >> >> Good evening, everyone.
>   >> >>
>   >> >> I don't know the details about how parts are controlled. 
>   >However,
>   >> > my
>   >> >> local piano technician tells me that he is required to 
produce a
>   >> >> serial number when he orders a part from Yamaha.
>   >> >>
>   >> >> Regards,
>   >> >> PianoBench
>   >> >>
>   >> >>
>   >> >> On Aug 27, 2007, at 11:51 PM, rondisklavier wrote:
>   >> >>
>   >> >> > --- In disklavier@yahoogroups.com, "George F. Litterst"
>   >> >> > wrote:
>   >> >> > I have another question "How does Yamaha know whether 
they are
>   >> >> > selling parts to fix a gray market piano?". Does Yamaha 
only 
>   >sell
>   >> >> > parts through their dealers?
>   >> >> >
>   >> >> > >
>   >> >> > > If you purchase a piano that was not made for North 
America,
>   >> > you
>   >> >> > > cannot get parts and service from Yamaha Corporation of
>   >> > America.
>   >> >> > And,
>   >> >> > > it is advisable to keep up the relative humidity in 
your 
>   >home
>   >> >> > year
>   >> >> > > round.
>   >> >> > >
>   >> >> > > Regards,
>   >> >> > > PianoBench
>   >> >> > >
>   >> >> > >
>   >> >> > > On Aug 26, 2007, at 11:57 PM, rondisklavier wrote:
>   >> >> > >
>   >> >> > > > I always have question regarding the statement below. 
How
>   >> > Yamaha
>   >> >> > > > manufactured for special market, for example US. US 
>   >climate
>   >> > is
>   >> >> > not one
>   >> >> > > > climate. There are as many climate as those of in 
Asia 
>   >(from
>   >> >> > South
>   >> >> > > > East Asia to Japan). In addition, when I was in my 
senior
>   >> > year in
>   >> >> > > > college, I had a practical training in Yamaha factory 
in
>   >> > Jakarta,
>   >> >> > > > Indonesia, and I was not aware that they make 
different
>   >> > pianos
>   >> >> > for
>   >> >> > > > different climates.
>   >> >> > > >
>   >> >> > > > --- In disklavier@yahoogroups.com, "Carol Beigel" 
>   >
>   >> >> > > > wrote:
>   >> >> > > > Their
>   >> >> > > > > products are manufactured specifically for different
>   >> > markets.
>   >> >> > The
>   >> >> > > > pianos in
>   >> >> > > > > particular are not interchangeable!
>   >> >> > > > >
>   >> >> > > > >
>   >> >> > > > > Carol Beigel
>   >> >> > > > >
>   >> >> > > >
>   >> >> > > >
>   >> >> > > >
>   >> >> > >
>   >> >> >
>   >> >> >
>   >> >> >
>   >> >>
>   >> >
>   >> >
>   >> >
>   >> >
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Date: 

>   >8/26/2007 
>   >> > 9:34 PM
>   >> >
>   >> >
>   >>
>   >
>   >
>   >
>