Digital BW, The Print

Greetings everyone!

 A photographer friend recommended this group to provide me with 
some answers to digital printing on glossy/semi-gloss papers.

I'm a former model who is now working at the other end of the camera 
photographing other models to help them build and develop their 
books. When I shoot film I have access to a wet darkroom, it's 
messy, very time consuming but the results are quite good. For 
digital printing (Epson 2200 and high gloss/semi gloss papers) the 
results don't compare to silver prints. But I'd prefer to shoot 
digital and print on glossy papers, since b&w gloss prints are the 
industry standard requested by agencies for modeling portfolios. 

Can someone make some recommendations for inks that will improve the 
quality of my digital prints on gloss papers. Hope to hear back from 
someone soon.

Have a wonderful day!
Jo

Jo,

Welcome to this sometimes neurotic, disfunctional group.

I am going to assume you do NOT want to mess with loading your own 
inks, and playing around with RIPs, etc. Not knowing what you find 
lacking in the 2200 printer (and there are many limitations there), I 
can tell you you have 2 options that will give you better Gloss/Semi 
Gloss prints straight out of the box:

(1) Epson R2400 using the Epson Advanced Black and White (ABW) mode. 
You will get better black density (Dmax) and a more neutral print. 
You can make the prints cooler, warmer, or other hues with relative 
ease with ABW. The drawback is that there is still some residual 
bronzing and gloss differential. But many people live with it, quite 
happily.
(2) HP printers with their Vivera inks. Make sure you look at a model 
that supports the b/w ink cartridges. You will get excellent gloss, 
semi-gloss prints. The drawback is that you are limited to the 
recommended HP papers, which are not completely water proof. The 
prints dry down just fine after 24 hours.

One way to go about is to take a lap-top loaded with the printer 
drivers for the printer (down-load from manufacturer web site), a USB 
cable, and head over to CompUsa. Ask them to hook up their display 
printers. If the manufacturer rep is around, you may not even have to 
buy the paper for the respective printers. Try them out, and see if 
they suit your needs.

Hope this helps.

Shilesh

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Joanne Emerson" 
<jojo_xmodel@y...> wrote:
>
> Greetings everyone!
> 
>  A photographer friend recommended this group to provide me with 
> some answers to digital printing on glossy/semi-gloss papers.
> 
> I'm a former model who is now working at the other end of the 
camera 
> photographing other models to help them build and develop their 
> books. When I shoot film I have access to a wet darkroom, it's 
> messy, very time consuming but the results are quite good. For 
> digital printing (Epson 2200 and high gloss/semi gloss papers) the 
> results don't compare to silver prints. But I'd prefer to shoot 
> digital and print on glossy papers, since b&w gloss prints are the 
> industry standard requested by agencies for modeling portfolios. 
> 
> Can someone make some recommendations for inks that will improve 
the 
> quality of my digital prints on gloss papers. Hope to hear back 
from 

> someone soon.
> 
> Have a wonderful day!
> Jo
>

Thank you, Shilesh! 

Will using a RIP provide more options for me?
I have downloaded and installed a quadtone rip, are there special 
inks I can buy for glossy or semi gloss papers if I use this 
software?


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Shilesh Jani" 
<shileshjani@b...> wrote:
>
> Jo,
> 
> Welcome to this sometimes neurotic, disfunctional group.
> 
> I am going to assume you do NOT want to mess with loading your own 
> inks, and playing around with RIPs, etc. Not knowing what you find 
> lacking in the 2200 printer (and there are many limitations 
there), I 
> can tell you you have 2 options that will give you better 
Gloss/Semi 
> Gloss prints straight out of the box:
> 
> (1) Epson R2400 using the Epson Advanced Black and White (ABW) 
mode. 
> You will get better black density (Dmax) and a more neutral print. 
> You can make the prints cooler, warmer, or other hues with 
relative 
> ease with ABW. The drawback is that there is still some residual 
> bronzing and gloss differential. But many people live with it, 
quite 
> happily.
> (2) HP printers with their Vivera inks. Make sure you look at a 
model 
> that supports the b/w ink cartridges. You will get excellent 
gloss, 
> semi-gloss prints. The drawback is that you are limited to the 
> recommended HP papers, which are not completely water proof. The 
> prints dry down just fine after 24 hours.
> 
> One way to go about is to take a lap-top loaded with the printer 
> drivers for the printer (down-load from manufacturer web site), a 
USB 
> cable, and head over to CompUsa. Ask them to hook up their display 
> printers. If the manufacturer rep is around, you may not even have 
to 
> buy the paper for the respective printers. Try them out, and see 
if 
> they suit your needs.
> 
> Hope this helps.
> 
> Shilesh
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Joanne 
Emerson" 
> <jojo_xmodel@y...> wrote:
> >
> > Greetings everyone!
> > 
> >  A photographer friend recommended this group to provide me with 
> > some answers to digital printing on glossy/semi-gloss papers.
> > 
> > I'm a former model who is now working at the other end of the 
> camera 
> > photographing other models to help them build and develop their 
> > books. When I shoot film I have access to a wet darkroom, it's 
> > messy, very time consuming but the results are quite good. For 
> > digital printing (Epson 2200 and high gloss/semi gloss papers) 
the 
> > results don't compare to silver prints. But I'd prefer to shoot 
> > digital and print on glossy papers, since b&w gloss prints are 
the 

> > industry standard requested by agencies for modeling portfolios. 
> > 
> > Can someone make some recommendations for inks that will improve 
> the 
> > quality of my digital prints on gloss papers. Hope to hear back 
> from 
> > someone soon.
> > 
> > Have a wonderful day!
> > Jo
> >
>

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Joanne Emerson" 
<jojo_xmodel@y...> wrote:
>
> 
> Thank you, Shilesh! 
> 
> Will using a RIP provide more options for me?
> I have downloaded and installed a quadtone rip, are there special 
> inks I can buy for glossy or semi gloss papers if I use this 
> software?
>

Try www.paulroark.com, one of gurus of this forum.  A lot of information on papers, inks, 
just general info. for B&W printing. Take a look for recommended inks for the gloss and semi 
gloss papers for your printer.  Also note that Kirkland Photo Glossy Paper which you can buy 
at Costco makes an excellent proofing paper.  Unfortunatley, it only comes in a 8.5 by 11 
size.  

Good luck with your search.

Martin

Jo

Having a RIP always provides more options and control. QTR is indeed 
great. And yes, you can play around with different inks, but be 
forewarned it will seriouly curtail your productivity (making usable 
prints)initiallly. And no, I am afraid there are no proven b/w inks 
for use with gloss type papers. That does not mean there are no 
alternative inks - there are many. But, you will face one of the 
following problems (1) gloss differential with pigment type inks from 
MIS, InkjetMall, etc or (2) Metamerism from dye type inks from Lyson

The 2400 (or 4800 if you want larger prints) will be such a dramatic 
improvement over your current 2200 that you may find all the messing 
around rather unnecessary. And yes, you can use QTR will the 2400. 

For glossy, semi-glossy prints on the 2200 using Epson inks, QTR will 
NOT reduce the pesky problem of bronzing/gloss differential. I forgot 
to add earlier that if you are willing to spray coat (or laminate) 
your prints than the bronzing/gloss differential can be reduced or 
even eliminated. But perfecting spraying techniques is another PhD 
project.

I am still under the assumption that you do not want to make a career 
out of playing with inks. Currently there are no proven third-party 
pigment type b/w inks for the 2200 which will beat the 2400 out-of-
the-box in the bronzing/gloss differential area.

Good luck, and if you can, sign up with Tom O'Connell's monthly print 
exchanges. You get to see a variety of inks and papers.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBW-PrintExchanges/

I am working on a potential (unproven, no fade resistance data) 
solution with NanoChrome inks, and if you are interested in playing, 
send me an email, and I will walk you through it.

Shilesh

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Joanne Emerson" 
<jojo_xmodel@y...> wrote:
>
> 
> Thank you, Shilesh! 
> 
> Will using a RIP provide more options for me?
> I have downloaded and installed a quadtone rip, are there special 
> inks I can buy for glossy or semi gloss papers if I use this 
> software?
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Shilesh Jani" 
> <shileshjani@b...> wrote:
> >
> > Jo,
> > 
> > Welcome to this sometimes neurotic, disfunctional group.
> > 
> > I am going to assume you do NOT want to mess with loading your 
own 
> > inks, and playing around with RIPs, etc. Not knowing what you 
find 
> > lacking in the 2200 printer (and there are many limitations 
> there), I 
> > can tell you you have 2 options that will give you better 
> Gloss/Semi 
> > Gloss prints straight out of the box:
> > 
> > (1) Epson R2400 using the Epson Advanced Black and White (ABW) 
> mode. 
> > You will get better black density (Dmax) and a more neutral 
print. 
> > You can make the prints cooler, warmer, or other hues with 
> relative 
> > ease with ABW. The drawback is that there is still some residual 
> > bronzing and gloss differential. But many people live with it, 
> quite 
> > happily.
> > (2) HP printers with their Vivera inks. Make sure you look at a 
> model 
> > that supports the b/w ink cartridges. You will get excellent 
> gloss, 
> > semi-gloss prints. The drawback is that you are limited to the 
> > recommended HP papers, which are not completely water proof. The 
> > prints dry down just fine after 24 hours.
> > 
> > One way to go about is to take a lap-top loaded with the printer 
> > drivers for the printer (down-load from manufacturer web site), a 
> USB 
> > cable, and head over to CompUsa. Ask them to hook up their 
display 
> > printers. If the manufacturer rep is around, you may not even 
have 
> to 
> > buy the paper for the respective printers. Try them out, and see 
> if 
> > they suit your needs.
> > 
> > Hope this helps.
> > 
> > Shilesh
> > 
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Joanne 
> Emerson" 
> > <jojo_xmodel@y...> wrote:
> > >
> > > Greetings everyone!
> > > 
> > >  A photographer friend recommended this group to provide me 
with 
> > > some answers to digital printing on glossy/semi-gloss papers.
> > > 
> > > I'm a former model who is now working at the other end of the 
> > camera 
> > > photographing other models to help them build and develop their 
> > > books. When I shoot film I have access to a wet darkroom, it's 
> > > messy, very time consuming but the results are quite good. For 
> > > digital printing (Epson 2200 and high gloss/semi gloss papers) 
> the 
> > > results don't compare to silver prints. But I'd prefer to shoot 
> > > digital and print on glossy papers, since b&w gloss prints are 
> the 
> > > industry standard requested by agencies for modeling 
portfolios. 
> > > 
> > > Can someone make some recommendations for inks that will 
improve 

> > the 
> > > quality of my digital prints on gloss papers. Hope to hear back 
> > from 
> > > someone soon.
> > > 
> > > Have a wonderful day!
> > > Jo
> > >
> >
>

Oh my! This is starting to sound a little too complicated. What are 
these alternative inks you are refering too? Will they work with the 
Epson 2200 and gloss papers? How about the quadtone rip? I may be 
better off shooting film and using a wet darkroom or buying the 2400.
Please explain.

Thnx!
Jo

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Shilesh Jani" 
<shileshjani@b...> wrote:
>
> Jo
> 
> Having a RIP always provides more options and control. QTR is 
indeed 
> great. And yes, you can play around with different inks, but be 
> forewarned it will seriouly curtail your productivity (making 
usable 
> prints)initiallly. And no, I am afraid there are no proven b/w 
inks 
> for use with gloss type papers. That does not mean there are no 
> alternative inks - there are many. But, you will face one of the 
> following problems (1) gloss differential with pigment type inks 
from 
> MIS, InkjetMall, etc or (2) Metamerism from dye type inks from 
Lyson
> 
> The 2400 (or 4800 if you want larger prints) will be such a 
dramatic 
> improvement over your current 2200 that you may find all the 
messing 
> around rather unnecessary. And yes, you can use QTR will the 2400. 
> 
> For glossy, semi-glossy prints on the 2200 using Epson inks, QTR 
will 
> NOT reduce the pesky problem of bronzing/gloss differential. I 
forgot 
> to add earlier that if you are willing to spray coat (or laminate) 
> your prints than the bronzing/gloss differential can be reduced or 
> even eliminated. But perfecting spraying techniques is another PhD 
> project.
> 
> I am still under the assumption that you do not want to make a 
career 
> out of playing with inks. Currently there are no proven third-
party 
> pigment type b/w inks for the 2200 which will beat the 2400 out-of-
> the-box in the bronzing/gloss differential area.
> 
> Good luck, and if you can, sign up with Tom O'Connell's monthly 
print 
> exchanges. You get to see a variety of inks and papers.
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBW-PrintExchanges/
> 
> I am working on a potential (unproven, no fade resistance data) 
> solution with NanoChrome inks, and if you are interested in 
playing, 
> send me an email, and I will walk you through it.
> 
> Shilesh
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Joanne 
Emerson" 
> <jojo_xmodel@y...> wrote:
> >
> > 
> > Thank you, Shilesh! 
> > 
> > Will using a RIP provide more options for me?
> > I have downloaded and installed a quadtone rip, are there 
special 
> > inks I can buy for glossy or semi gloss papers if I use this 
> > software?
> > 
> > 
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Shilesh 
Jani" 
> > <shileshjani@b...> wrote:
> > >
> > > Jo,
> > > 
> > > Welcome to this sometimes neurotic, disfunctional group.
> > > 
> > > I am going to assume you do NOT want to mess with loading your 
> own 
> > > inks, and playing around with RIPs, etc. Not knowing what you 
> find 
> > > lacking in the 2200 printer (and there are many limitations 
> > there), I 
> > > can tell you you have 2 options that will give you better 
> > Gloss/Semi 
> > > Gloss prints straight out of the box:
> > > 
> > > (1) Epson R2400 using the Epson Advanced Black and White (ABW) 
> > mode. 
> > > You will get better black density (Dmax) and a more neutral 
> print. 
> > > You can make the prints cooler, warmer, or other hues with 
> > relative 
> > > ease with ABW. The drawback is that there is still some 
residual 
> > > bronzing and gloss differential. But many people live with it, 
> > quite 
> > > happily.
> > > (2) HP printers with their Vivera inks. Make sure you look at 
a 
> > model 
> > > that supports the b/w ink cartridges. You will get excellent 
> > gloss, 
> > > semi-gloss prints. The drawback is that you are limited to the 
> > > recommended HP papers, which are not completely water proof. 
The 
> > > prints dry down just fine after 24 hours.
> > > 
> > > One way to go about is to take a lap-top loaded with the 
printer 
> > > drivers for the printer (down-load from manufacturer web 
site), a 
> > USB 
> > > cable, and head over to CompUsa. Ask them to hook up their 
> display 
> > > printers. If the manufacturer rep is around, you may not even 
> have 
> > to 
> > > buy the paper for the respective printers. Try them out, and 
see 
> > if 
> > > they suit your needs.
> > > 
> > > Hope this helps.
> > > 
> > > Shilesh
> > > 
> > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Joanne 
> > Emerson" 
> > > <jojo_xmodel@y...> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Greetings everyone!
> > > > 
> > > >  A photographer friend recommended this group to provide me 
> with 
> > > > some answers to digital printing on glossy/semi-gloss papers.
> > > > 
> > > > I'm a former model who is now working at the other end of 
the 
> > > camera 
> > > > photographing other models to help them build and develop 
their 
> > > > books. When I shoot film I have access to a wet darkroom, 
it's 
> > > > messy, very time consuming but the results are quite good. 
For 
> > > > digital printing (Epson 2200 and high gloss/semi gloss 
papers) 
> > the 
> > > > results don't compare to silver prints. But I'd prefer to 
shoot 
> > > > digital and print on glossy papers, since b&w gloss prints 
are 
> > the 
> > > > industry standard requested by agencies for modeling 
> portfolios. 
> > > > 
> > > > Can someone make some recommendations for inks that will 
> improve 
> > > the 
> > > > quality of my digital prints on gloss papers. Hope to hear 
back 

> > > from 
> > > > someone soon.
> > > > 
> > > > Have a wonderful day!
> > > > Jo
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

> ... I am afraid there are no proven b/w inks
> for use with gloss type papers. That does not mean there are no
> alternative inks - there are many. But, you will face one of the
> following problems (1) gloss differential with pigment type inks from
> MIS, InkjetMall, etc or (2) Metamerism from dye type inks from Lyson


I find the bronzing and gloss differential with the new MIS inks to be
rather minimal on many glossy papers.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

The alternative inksets are those from InkjetMall, MIS, Lyson, and
others. Each inkset has its strong and weak points. I think Shilesh's
main point is that with the 2400 you can get very good prints out of
the box. (See Clayton Jones' discussion --
http://www.cjcom.net/articles/digiprn9.htm --
of BW printing on the 2400. As for the 2200, I've used MIS PKN 
http://www.inksupply.com/roarkslab.cfm
for black only printing on glossy papers and there is very little
bronzing, great dmax, but some dottiness, which isn't necessarily
bad.) Gloss differential/bronzing are not completely eliminated,
however, with the 2400. As far as I know, no pigment inkset completely
eliminates gloss differential/bronzing -- that, as well great dmax,is
why many people are interested in the potential of the Nanochrome inkset.

Chris Hargens


 In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Joanne Emerson"
<jojo_xmodel@y...> wrote:

>
> Oh my! This is starting to sound a little too complicated. What are 
> these alternative inks you are refering too? Will they work with the 
> Epson 2200 and gloss papers? How about the quadtone rip? I may be 
> better off shooting film and using a wet darkroom or buying the 2400.
> Please explain.
> 
> Thnx!
> Jo
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Shilesh Jani" 
> <shileshjani@b...> wrote:
> >
> > Jo
> > 
> > Having a RIP always provides more options and control. QTR is 
> indeed 
> > great. And yes, you can play around with different inks, but be 
> > forewarned it will seriouly curtail your productivity (making 
> usable 
> > prints)initiallly. And no, I am afraid there are no proven b/w 
> inks 
> > for use with gloss type papers. That does not mean there are no 
> > alternative inks - there are many. But, you will face one of the 
> > following problems (1) gloss differential with pigment type inks 
> from 
> > MIS, InkjetMall, etc or (2) Metamerism from dye type inks from 
> Lyson
> > 
> > The 2400 (or 4800 if you want larger prints) will be such a 
> dramatic 
> > improvement over your current 2200 that you may find all the 
> messing 
> > around rather unnecessary. And yes, you can use QTR will the 2400. 
> > 
> > For glossy, semi-glossy prints on the 2200 using Epson inks, QTR 
> will 
> > NOT reduce the pesky problem of bronzing/gloss differential. I 
> forgot 
> > to add earlier that if you are willing to spray coat (or laminate) 
> > your prints than the bronzing/gloss differential can be reduced or 
> > even eliminated. But perfecting spraying techniques is another PhD 
> > project.
> > 
> > I am still under the assumption that you do not want to make a 
> career 
> > out of playing with inks. Currently there are no proven third-
> party 
> > pigment type b/w inks for the 2200 which will beat the 2400 out-of-
> > the-box in the bronzing/gloss differential area.
> > 
> > Good luck, and if you can, sign up with Tom O'Connell's monthly 
> print 
> > exchanges. You get to see a variety of inks and papers.
> > 
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBW-PrintExchanges/
> > 
> > I am working on a potential (unproven, no fade resistance data) 
> > solution with NanoChrome inks, and if you are interested in 
> playing, 
> > send me an email, and I will walk you through it.

>

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark"
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:

 
> I find the bronzing and gloss differential with the new MIS inks to be
> rather minimal on many glossy papers.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>

What new inks are you referring to -- UT7 with Eboni?

Chris

Paul,

How do the new MIS inks compare with the K3 2400 system regarding 
bronzing, and on what papers?

I have played with the 2400, and I still do not like the inks sitting 
on the surface, even though bronzing has been reduced. 

Shilesh

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
>
> 
> 
> > ... I am afraid there are no proven b/w inks
> > for use with gloss type papers. That does not mean there are no
> > alternative inks - there are many. But, you will face one of the
> > following problems (1) gloss differential with pigment type inks 
from

> > MIS, InkjetMall, etc or (2) Metamerism from dye type inks from Lyson
> 
> 
> I find the bronzing and gloss differential with the new MIS inks to be
> rather minimal on many glossy papers.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>

That appears to be one of the more subtle benefits of the Nanochrome  
inks.  The image looks like it is embedded into the BO prints I've  
been making on Hahnemuhle PR Satin using the Nanochrome K.

Carl

On Jan 21, 2006, at 8:09 PM, Shilesh Jani wrote:

> Paul,
>
> How do the new MIS inks compare with the K3 2400 system regarding
> bronzing, and on what papers?
>
> I have played with the 2400, and I still do not like the inks sitting
> on the surface, even though bronzing has been reduced.
>
> Shilesh
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark"
> <paul.roark@v...> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> ... I am afraid there are no proven b/w inks
>>> for use with gloss type papers. That does not mean there are no
>>> alternative inks - there are many. But, you will face one of the
>>> following problems (1) gloss differential with pigment type inks
> from
>>> MIS, InkjetMall, etc or (2) Metamerism from dye type inks from Lyson
>>
>>
>> I find the bronzing and gloss differential with the new MIS inks  
>> to be
>> rather minimal on many glossy papers.
>>
>> Paul
>> www.PaulRoark.com

And......would YOU display prints on these papers without coating them?

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
>
> 
> 
> > ... I am afraid there are no proven b/w inks
> > for use with gloss type papers. That does not mean there are no
> > alternative inks - there are many. But, you will face one of the
> > following problems (1) gloss differential with pigment type inks 
from

> > MIS, InkjetMall, etc or (2) Metamerism from dye type inks from Lyson
> 
> 
> I find the bronzing and gloss differential with the new MIS inks to be
> rather minimal on many glossy papers.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>

Jo,

Yes it can get complicated. In reality it all depends on your needs. 
It sure would help if we knew what you find the 2200 needs to be 
improved upon. 

If it is the uncontrolable color casts, then QTR will definitely help 
a lot.

If you are not happy about the gloss differential, then you can (1) 
consider another printer, (2) alternative inks, or (3) coating your 
prints.

Your need for glossy prints is, I am afraid, the holy grail for 
inkjet b/w. Things are so much better than 2 years ago, but there is 
a long way to go yet.

I would be happy to send you some example prints. Others in this 
forum would gladly do the same.

Regards.

Shilesh

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Joanne Emerson" 
<jojo_xmodel@y...> wrote:
>
> Oh my! This is starting to sound a little too complicated. What are 
> these alternative inks you are refering too? Will they work with 
the 
> Epson 2200 and gloss papers? How about the quadtone rip? I may be 
> better off shooting film and using a wet darkroom or buying the 
2400.
> Please explain.
> 
> Thnx!
> Jo
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Shilesh Jani" 
> <shileshjani@b...> wrote:
> >
> > Jo
> > 
> > Having a RIP always provides more options and control. QTR is 
> indeed 
> > great. And yes, you can play around with different inks, but be 
> > forewarned it will seriouly curtail your productivity (making 
> usable 
> > prints)initiallly. And no, I am afraid there are no proven b/w 
> inks 
> > for use with gloss type papers. That does not mean there are no 
> > alternative inks - there are many. But, you will face one of the 
> > following problems (1) gloss differential with pigment type inks 
> from 
> > MIS, InkjetMall, etc or (2) Metamerism from dye type inks from 
> Lyson
> > 
> > The 2400 (or 4800 if you want larger prints) will be such a 
> dramatic 
> > improvement over your current 2200 that you may find all the 
> messing 
> > around rather unnecessary. And yes, you can use QTR will the 
2400. 
> > 
> > For glossy, semi-glossy prints on the 2200 using Epson inks, QTR 
> will 
> > NOT reduce the pesky problem of bronzing/gloss differential. I 
> forgot 
> > to add earlier that if you are willing to spray coat (or 
laminate) 
> > your prints than the bronzing/gloss differential can be reduced 
or 
> > even eliminated. But perfecting spraying techniques is another 
PhD 
> > project.
> > 
> > I am still under the assumption that you do not want to make a 
> career 
> > out of playing with inks. Currently there are no proven third-
> party 
> > pigment type b/w inks for the 2200 which will beat the 2400 out-
of-
> > the-box in the bronzing/gloss differential area.
> > 
> > Good luck, and if you can, sign up with Tom O'Connell's monthly 
> print 
> > exchanges. You get to see a variety of inks and papers.
> > 
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBW-PrintExchanges/
> > 
> > I am working on a potential (unproven, no fade resistance data) 
> > solution with NanoChrome inks, and if you are interested in 
> playing, 
> > send me an email, and I will walk you through it.
> > 
> > Shilesh
> > 
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Joanne 
> Emerson" 
> > <jojo_xmodel@y...> wrote:
> > >
> > > 
> > > Thank you, Shilesh! 
> > > 
> > > Will using a RIP provide more options for me?
> > > I have downloaded and installed a quadtone rip, are there 
> special 
> > > inks I can buy for glossy or semi gloss papers if I use this 
> > > software?
> > > 
> > > 
> > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Shilesh 
> Jani" 
> > > <shileshjani@b...> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Jo,
> > > > 
> > > > Welcome to this sometimes neurotic, disfunctional group.
> > > > 
> > > > I am going to assume you do NOT want to mess with loading 
your 
> > own 
> > > > inks, and playing around with RIPs, etc. Not knowing what you 
> > find 
> > > > lacking in the 2200 printer (and there are many limitations 
> > > there), I 
> > > > can tell you you have 2 options that will give you better 
> > > Gloss/Semi 
> > > > Gloss prints straight out of the box:
> > > > 
> > > > (1) Epson R2400 using the Epson Advanced Black and White 
(ABW) 
> > > mode. 
> > > > You will get better black density (Dmax) and a more neutral 
> > print. 
> > > > You can make the prints cooler, warmer, or other hues with 
> > > relative 
> > > > ease with ABW. The drawback is that there is still some 
> residual 
> > > > bronzing and gloss differential. But many people live with 
it, 
> > > quite 
> > > > happily.
> > > > (2) HP printers with their Vivera inks. Make sure you look at 
> a 
> > > model 
> > > > that supports the b/w ink cartridges. You will get excellent 
> > > gloss, 
> > > > semi-gloss prints. The drawback is that you are limited to 
the 
> > > > recommended HP papers, which are not completely water proof. 
> The 
> > > > prints dry down just fine after 24 hours.
> > > > 
> > > > One way to go about is to take a lap-top loaded with the 
> printer 
> > > > drivers for the printer (down-load from manufacturer web 
> site), a 
> > > USB 
> > > > cable, and head over to CompUsa. Ask them to hook up their 
> > display 
> > > > printers. If the manufacturer rep is around, you may not even 
> > have 
> > > to 
> > > > buy the paper for the respective printers. Try them out, and 
> see 
> > > if 
> > > > they suit your needs.
> > > > 
> > > > Hope this helps.
> > > > 
> > > > Shilesh
> > > > 
> > > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Joanne 
> > > Emerson" 
> > > > <jojo_xmodel@y...> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Greetings everyone!
> > > > > 
> > > > >  A photographer friend recommended this group to provide me 
> > with 
> > > > > some answers to digital printing on glossy/semi-gloss 
papers.

> > > > > 
> > > > > I'm a former model who is now working at the other end of 
> the 
> > > > camera 
> > > > > photographing other models to help them build and develop 
> their 
> > > > > books. When I shoot film I have access to a wet darkroom, 
> it's 
> > > > > messy, very time consuming but the results are quite good. 
> For 
> > > > > digital printing (Epson 2200 and high gloss/semi gloss 
> papers) 
> > > the 
> > > > > results don't compare to silver prints. But I'd prefer to 
> shoot 
> > > > > digital and print on glossy papers, since b&w gloss prints 
> are 
> > > the 
> > > > > industry standard requested by agencies for modeling 
> > portfolios. 
> > > > > 
> > > > > Can someone make some recommendations for inks that will 
> > improve 
> > > > the 
> > > > > quality of my digital prints on gloss papers. Hope to hear 
> back 
> > > > from 
> > > > > someone soon.
> > > > > 
> > > > > Have a wonderful day!
> > > > > Jo
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Joanne Emerson" 
<jojo_xmodel@y...> wrote:
>
> Oh my! This is starting to sound a little too complicated. What are 
> these alternative inks you are refering too? Will they work with the 
> Epson 2200 and gloss papers? How about the quadtone rip? I may be 
> better off shooting film and using a wet darkroom or buying the 2400.
> Please explain.
> 
> Thnx!
> Jo
> 
>

Here is the MIS Associates web page for the Epson 2200 using the QTR RIP:  

http://www.inksupply.com/ut2200bh.cfm


  Note, that the inks are strictly for B&W printing.  Others can tell you about bronzing or 
gloss differential (if any) with the above inks and QTR.

I have no experience with the Epson 2200.  But I can vouch for the 2400, the glossy prints 
are very nice with the Epson k3 inks.


Martin

> 
> > I find the bronzing and gloss differential with the new MIS inks to be
> > rather minimal on many glossy papers.
> >
> > Paul
> > www.PaulRoark.com
> >
> 
> What new inks are you referring to -- UT7 with Eboni?

About a year ago MIS started using a new base for all the UT type inks, not
the Eboni.  The new base made a very significant improvement in bronzing.
The gloss differential depends on what paper and black is being used.  I,
frankly, thing the dual dark gray ink generation of the black on glossy
paper, like is done with UT7 on the 2200 with curves does a good job of
avoiding the dulling that can happen with MIS PK.  The 2 dark grays can lay
down a dmax that is as good as the PK, but they are lower pigment load inks.
So, I think there is a better coating with the base that makes the
difference.


> How do the new MIS inks compare with the K3 2400 system regarding
> bronzing, and on what papers?

The uncoated MIS pigs are lower gloss and have less bronzing, but I have not
done a lot of work comparing the color inksets in a 2400.  Again, the PK
gloss differential issue is one I'm not certain on.  The MIS K4 PK uses a
lower load than the older PK.  Whether it can retain the same gloss as the
midtones is something I'm not sure of.  The coated PK seems to have the best
dmax and gloss retention there.  Balancing the gloss differential versus the
dmax is tricky.  That's why I mixed a special PKN for the 220.  I and some
others have tried Epson PK with MIS midtones, but then we tended to get a
transition area between the coated and uncoated pigs that looked rough.  I
think I'm still of the opinion the dual dark gray solution looks the best
with the uncoated pigs -- it's the same inks all the way down, with a
relatively low load of pigs and lots of base to coat them.  However, that
would be with the UT2 and UT7, not the 2400 with color inks.

> And......would YOU display prints on these papers without coating them?

I use Kirkland glossy paper, un-coated for brochures.  I think they look
fine.  Premium Semimatte and the beta Silver Rag also looked like they'd be
OK un-coated.  For display prints I still use matte paper -- no reflection
at all and easier to mount.  Frankly my reaction to the Silver Rag was that
they may have a paper that comes close to the fabled silver print, but after
getting used to matte papers, I'm not sure I want to go back to the silver
print look for display prints.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Paul,

>...they may have a paper that comes close to the fabled silver print, 
>but after getting used to matte papers, I'm not sure I want to go 
>back to the silver print look for display prints.

Exactly my sentiments, and "fabled" is a good word.  I held on to that
standard in my mind for a long time, but last summer I searched
through a box of old fiber base silver prints (mostly on Oriental
Seagull, Ilford MGFB and Galerie) looking for something and was struck
by how distracting and annoying the glare and reflections were.  I'd
forgotten how bad it was and realized how much I've come to love the
completely reflectionless carbon ink prints.  

I think that was the final step in completely leaving behind the last
traces of desire to recreate the look of emulsion prints of any sort.
I believe I have now, even subconsciously, fully accepted and
embraced the fact that we are working with a different medium.  

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Hear, hear. Now let us (Epson, or anyone else for that matter)find a 
the K ink which gives us Dmax in the 2 range on matte papers.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clayton Jones" 
<cj@c...> wrote:
>
> Paul,
> 
> >...they may have a paper that comes close to the fabled silver 
print, 
> >but after getting used to matte papers, I'm not sure I want to go 
> >back to the silver print look for display prints.
> 
> Exactly my sentiments, and "fabled" is a good word.  I held on to 
that
> standard in my mind for a long time, but last summer I searched
> through a box of old fiber base silver prints (mostly on Oriental
> Seagull, Ilford MGFB and Galerie) looking for something and was 
struck
> by how distracting and annoying the glare and reflections were.  I'd
> forgotten how bad it was and realized how much I've come to love the
> completely reflectionless carbon ink prints.  
> 
> I think that was the final step in completely leaving behind the 
last
> traces of desire to recreate the look of emulsion prints of any 
sort.

> I believe I have now, even subconsciously, fully accepted and
> embraced the fact that we are working with a different medium.  
> 
> Regards,
> Clayton
> 
> 
> Info on black and white digital printing at    
> http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
>

Nanochrome black ink gives dmax on matte papers close to 2.

On Jan 22, 2006, at 2:31 PM, Shilesh Jani wrote:

> Hear, hear. Now let us (Epson, or anyone else for that matter)find a
> the K ink which gives us Dmax in the 2 range on matte papers.
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clayton Jones"
> <cj@c...> wrote:
>>
>> Paul,
>>
>>> ...they may have a paper that comes close to the fabled silver
> print,
>>> but after getting used to matte papers, I'm not sure I want to go
>>> back to the silver print look for display prints.
>>
>> Exactly my sentiments, and "fabled" is a good word.  I held on to
> that
>> standard in my mind for a long time, but last summer I searched
>> through a box of old fiber base silver prints (mostly on Oriental
>> Seagull, Ilford MGFB and Galerie) looking for something and was
> struck
>> by how distracting and annoying the glare and reflections were.  I'd
>> forgotten how bad it was and realized how much I've come to love the
>> completely reflectionless carbon ink prints.
>>
>> I think that was the final step in completely leaving behind the
> last
>> traces of desire to recreate the look of emulsion prints of any
> sort.
>> I believe I have now, even subconsciously, fully accepted and
>> embraced the fact that we are working with a different medium.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Clayton
>>
>>
>> Info on black and white digital printing at
>> http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
>>

Matte paper might well be reflectionless held in your hand, with no 
glass-but if you put a silver gel print, a semi-matte inkjet print 
and a matte inkjet print under glass and hang them on the wall, they 
all become equally reflective, since you are now looking at the 
reflections of the glass. The factors that do not get equalized are 
the more important ones-the tonal range and dmax of the FB print, 
the better dmax and shadow detail retention of the semi-matte 
inkjet. So I for one (since we seem to be conducting another 
impromptu poll) am not ready to write of the FB look and advantages. 
I've said it before, I'll say it again: I want it all.

 my 2c worth

Steven Karafyllakis

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Shilesh Jani" 
<shileshjani@b...> wrote:
>
> Hear, hear. Now let us (Epson, or anyone else for that matter)find 
a 
> the K ink which gives us Dmax in the 2 range on matte papers.
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clayton 
Jones" 
> <cj@c...> wrote:
> >
> > Paul,
> > 
> > >...they may have a paper that comes close to the fabled silver 
> print, 
> > >but after getting used to matte papers, I'm not sure I want to 
go 
> > >back to the silver print look for display prints.
> > 
> > Exactly my sentiments, and "fabled" is a good word.  I held on 
to 
> that
> > standard in my mind for a long time, but last summer I searched
> > through a box of old fiber base silver prints (mostly on Oriental
> > Seagull, Ilford MGFB and Galerie) looking for something and was 
> struck
> > by how distracting and annoying the glare and reflections were.  
I'd
> > forgotten how bad it was and realized how much I've come to love 
the

> > completely reflectionless carbon ink prints.  
> > 
> > I think that was the final step in completely leaving behind the 
> last
> > traces of desire to recreate the look of emulsion prints of any 
> sort.
> > I believe I have now, even subconsciously, fully accepted and
> > embraced the fact that we are working with a different medium.  
> > 
> > Regards,
> > Clayton
> > 
> > 
> > Info on black and white digital printing at    
> > http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
> >
>

Steve,

Thanks a lot - you've just ruined the "feel-good" I was having!

How's it going? Haven't seen you in a print exchange in a while. 
Would love to see more of the Florida Swampland and the Greek Isles. 

Shilesh

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Steven 
Karafyllakis" <steve@s...> wrote:
>
> Matte paper might well be reflectionless held in your hand, with no 
> glass-but if you put a silver gel print, a semi-matte inkjet print 
> and a matte inkjet print under glass and hang them on the wall, 
they 
> all become equally reflective, since you are now looking at the 
> reflections of the glass. The factors that do not get equalized are 
> the more important ones-the tonal range and dmax of the FB print, 
> the better dmax and shadow detail retention of the semi-matte 
> inkjet. So I for one (since we seem to be conducting another 
> impromptu poll) am not ready to write of the FB look and 
advantages. 
> I've said it before, I'll say it again: I want it all.
> 
>  my 2c worth
> 
> Steven Karafyllakis
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Shilesh Jani" 
> <shileshjani@b...> wrote:
> >
> > Hear, hear. Now let us (Epson, or anyone else for that matter)
find 
> a 
> > the K ink which gives us Dmax in the 2 range on matte papers.
> > 
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clayton 
> Jones" 
> > <cj@c...> wrote:
> > >
> > > Paul,
> > > 
> > > >...they may have a paper that comes close to the fabled silver 
> > print, 
> > > >but after getting used to matte papers, I'm not sure I want to 
> go 
> > > >back to the silver print look for display prints.
> > > 
> > > Exactly my sentiments, and "fabled" is a good word.  I held on 
> to 
> > that
> > > standard in my mind for a long time, but last summer I searched
> > > through a box of old fiber base silver prints (mostly on 
Oriental
> > > Seagull, Ilford MGFB and Galerie) looking for something and was 
> > struck
> > > by how distracting and annoying the glare and reflections 
were.  
> I'd
> > > forgotten how bad it was and realized how much I've come to 
love 
> the
> > > completely reflectionless carbon ink prints.  
> > > 
> > > I think that was the final step in completely leaving behind 
the 

> > last
> > > traces of desire to recreate the look of emulsion prints of any 
> > sort.
> > > I believe I have now, even subconsciously, fully accepted and
> > > embraced the fact that we are working with a different medium.  
> > > 
> > > Regards,
> > > Clayton
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Info on black and white digital printing at    
> > > http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
> > >
> >
>

Don't put them behind glass...or worse yet, cheap glass.

> From: Shilesh Jani <shileshjani@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 20:26:11 -0000
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Printing On Gloss...Possible with Digital B&W?
> 
> Steve,
> 
> Thanks a lot - you've just ruined the "feel-good" I was having!
> 
> How's it going? Haven't seen you in a print exchange in a while.
> Would love to see more of the Florida Swampland and the Greek Isles.
> 
> Shilesh
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Steven
> Karafyllakis" <steve@s...> wrote:
>> 
>> Matte paper might well be reflectionless held in your hand, with no
>> glass-but if you put a silver gel print, a semi-matte inkjet print
>> and a matte inkjet print under glass and hang them on the wall,
> they 
>> all become equally reflective, since you are now looking at the
>> reflections of the glass. The factors that do not get equalized are
>> the more important ones-the tonal range and dmax of the FB print,
>> the better dmax and shadow detail retention of the semi-matte
>> inkjet. So I for one (since we seem to be conducting another
>> impromptu poll) am not ready to write of the FB look and
> advantages. 
>> I've said it before, I'll say it again: I want it all.
>> 
>>  my 2c worth
>> 
>> Steven Karafyllakis
>>

Sorry Shilesh, didn't mean to pop your bubble. I had an interesting 
weekend last week: I took part in an outdoor art fair, little white 
tent and all. I had both inkjets and FB prints under glass on the 
walls, and inkjets only in flip-racks on the side. 

The most common question the entire weekend is 'what's a carbon-
pigment inkjet print?' Good opportunity to educate a lot of people.

Many also expressed surprise and amazement at how good the inkjets 
looked, on the wall next to some of my best FB prints. But there 
were a few-(not many mind you) that immediately said 'yea, they're 
good, but I can still see the difference'. That says to me  we (or 
at least I) still have that 10% to go, though we are so much closer 
than a couple years ago.
And yes, you can make the argument that it is it's own medium and 
should be accepted on its own terms, but face it-in most ways, for 
most uses, digital printing isn't really going to be a parallel 
technology. It is a replacement, and I for one don't want to have to 
make any excuses or feel like we have given up anything in quality 
for the sake of convenience or whatever. So pardon me if I keep 
pushing till we get there! (dirty job... etc.,etc.)

Steve


 --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Shilesh Jani" 
<shileshjani@b...> wrote:
>
> Steve,
> 
> Thanks a lot - you've just ruined the "feel-good" I was having!
> 
> How's it going? Haven't seen you in a print exchange in a while. 
> Would love to see more of the Florida Swampland and the Greek 
Isles. 
> 
> Shilesh
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Steven 
> Karafyllakis" <steve@s...> wrote:
> >
> > Matte paper might well be reflectionless held in your hand, with 
no 
> > glass-but if you put a silver gel print, a semi-matte inkjet 
print 
> > and a matte inkjet print under glass and hang them on the wall, 
> they 
> > all become equally reflective, since you are now looking at the 
> > reflections of the glass. The factors that do not get equalized 
are 
> > the more important ones-the tonal range and dmax of the FB 
print, 
> > the better dmax and shadow detail retention of the semi-matte 
> > inkjet. So I for one (since we seem to be conducting another 
> > impromptu poll) am not ready to write of the FB look and 
> advantages. 
> > I've said it before, I'll say it again: I want it all.
> > 
> >  my 2c worth
> > 
> > Steven Karafyllakis
> > 
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Shilesh 
Jani" 
> > <shileshjani@b...> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hear, hear. Now let us (Epson, or anyone else for that matter)
> find 
> > a 
> > > the K ink which gives us Dmax in the 2 range on matte papers.
> > > 
> > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clayton 
> > Jones" 
> > > <cj@c...> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Paul,
> > > > 
> > > > >...they may have a paper that comes close to the fabled 
silver 
> > > print, 
> > > > >but after getting used to matte papers, I'm not sure I want 
to 
> > go 
> > > > >back to the silver print look for display prints.
> > > > 
> > > > Exactly my sentiments, and "fabled" is a good word.  I held 
on 
> > to 
> > > that
> > > > standard in my mind for a long time, but last summer I 
searched
> > > > through a box of old fiber base silver prints (mostly on 
> Oriental
> > > > Seagull, Ilford MGFB and Galerie) looking for something and 
was 
> > > struck
> > > > by how distracting and annoying the glare and reflections 
> were.  
> > I'd
> > > > forgotten how bad it was and realized how much I've come to 
> love 
> > the
> > > > completely reflectionless carbon ink prints.  
> > > > 
> > > > I think that was the final step in completely leaving behind 
> the 
> > > last
> > > > traces of desire to recreate the look of emulsion prints of 
any 
> > > sort.
> > > > I believe I have now, even subconsciously, fully accepted and
> > > > embraced the fact that we are working with a different 
medium.  

> > > > 
> > > > Regards,
> > > > Clayton
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > Info on black and white digital printing at    
> > > > http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

Hell no, it is a pissy, rainy day here anyway - and, I understand. 
When newstand magazines such as B&W and Lenswork are routinely 
hitting 2.0, it makes me wonder what I am doing accepting the 1.6 - 
1.7 range. The last 2 weeks, I have not done much in my spare time 
than putz around with NanoChromes. At this time I have given up the 
idea that they may be a panacea to all our woes (desires?). 
But.....the last hope is to use the NanoChrome K with more 
traditional inks in the LK, LLK, LLLK (sorry, I had to do that 
because I am working on a Quad set right now). If you push the K far 
enough into the shadows, the cool tone of the ink becomes rather moot.

Regards.

Shilesh

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Steven 
Karafyllakis" <steve@s...> wrote:
>
> Sorry Shilesh, didn't mean to pop your bubble. I had an interesting 
> weekend last week: I took part in an outdoor art fair, little white 
> tent and all. I had both inkjets and FB prints under glass on the 
> walls, and inkjets only in flip-racks on the side. 
> 
> The most common question the entire weekend is 'what's a carbon-
> pigment inkjet print?' Good opportunity to educate a lot of people.
> 
> Many also expressed surprise and amazement at how good the inkjets 
> looked, on the wall next to some of my best FB prints. But there 
> were a few-(not many mind you) that immediately said 'yea, they're 
> good, but I can still see the difference'. That says to me  we (or 
> at least I) still have that 10% to go, though we are so much closer 
> than a couple years ago.
> And yes, you can make the argument that it is it's own medium and 
> should be accepted on its own terms, but face it-in most ways, for 
> most uses, digital printing isn't really going to be a parallel 
> technology. It is a replacement, and I for one don't want to have 
to 
> make any excuses or feel like we have given up anything in quality 
> for the sake of convenience or whatever. So pardon me if I keep 
> pushing till we get there! (dirty job... etc.,etc.)
> 
> Steve
> 
> 
>  --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Shilesh 
Jani" 
> <shileshjani@b...> wrote:
> >
> > Steve,
> > 
> > Thanks a lot - you've just ruined the "feel-good" I was having!
> > 
> > How's it going? Haven't seen you in a print exchange in a while. 
> > Would love to see more of the Florida Swampland and the Greek 
> Isles. 
> > 
> > Shilesh
> > 
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Steven 
> > Karafyllakis" <steve@s...> wrote:
> > >
> > > Matte paper might well be reflectionless held in your hand, 
with 
> no 
> > > glass-but if you put a silver gel print, a semi-matte inkjet 
> print 
> > > and a matte inkjet print under glass and hang them on the wall, 
> > they 
> > > all become equally reflective, since you are now looking at the 
> > > reflections of the glass. The factors that do not get equalized 
> are 
> > > the more important ones-the tonal range and dmax of the FB 
> print, 
> > > the better dmax and shadow detail retention of the semi-matte 
> > > inkjet. So I for one (since we seem to be conducting another 
> > > impromptu poll) am not ready to write of the FB look and 
> > advantages. 
> > > I've said it before, I'll say it again: I want it all.
> > > 
> > >  my 2c worth
> > > 
> > > Steven Karafyllakis
> > > 
> > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Shilesh 
> Jani" 
> > > <shileshjani@b...> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hear, hear. Now let us (Epson, or anyone else for that matter)
> > find 
> > > a 
> > > > the K ink which gives us Dmax in the 2 range on matte papers.
> > > > 
> > > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clayton 
> > > Jones" 
> > > > <cj@c...> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Paul,
> > > > > 
> > > > > >...they may have a paper that comes close to the fabled 
> silver 
> > > > print, 
> > > > > >but after getting used to matte papers, I'm not sure I 
want 
> to 
> > > go 
> > > > > >back to the silver print look for display prints.
> > > > > 
> > > > > Exactly my sentiments, and "fabled" is a good word.  I held 
> on 
> > > to 
> > > > that
> > > > > standard in my mind for a long time, but last summer I 
> searched
> > > > > through a box of old fiber base silver prints (mostly on 
> > Oriental
> > > > > Seagull, Ilford MGFB and Galerie) looking for something and 
> was 
> > > > struck
> > > > > by how distracting and annoying the glare and reflections 
> > were.  
> > > I'd
> > > > > forgotten how bad it was and realized how much I've come to 
> > love 
> > > the
> > > > > completely reflectionless carbon ink prints.  
> > > > > 
> > > > > I think that was the final step in completely leaving 
behind 
> > the 
> > > > last
> > > > > traces of desire to recreate the look of emulsion prints of 
> any 
> > > > sort.
> > > > > I believe I have now, even subconsciously, fully accepted 
and

> > > > > embraced the fact that we are working with a different 
> medium.  
> > > > > 
> > > > > Regards,
> > > > > Clayton
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > Info on black and white digital printing at    
> > > > > http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

I'll be curious to know how your mixed bag of inks works out.  Are  
you intending to use the Nanochrome black with the Epson K3 light  
blacks?

Carl

On Jan 22, 2006, at 8:22 PM, Shilesh Jani wrote:

> Hell no, it is a pissy, rainy day here anyway - and, I understand.
> When newstand magazines such as B&W and Lenswork are routinely
> hitting 2.0, it makes me wonder what I am doing accepting the 1.6 -
> 1.7 range. The last 2 weeks, I have not done much in my spare time
> than putz around with NanoChromes. At this time I have given up the
> idea that they may be a panacea to all our woes (desires?).
> But.....the last hope is to use the NanoChrome K with more
> traditional inks in the LK, LLK, LLLK (sorry, I had to do that
> because I am working on a Quad set right now). If you push the K far
> enough into the shadows, the cool tone of the ink becomes rather moot.
>
> Regards.
>
> Shilesh
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Steven
> Karafyllakis" <steve@s...> wrote:
>>
>> Sorry Shilesh, didn't mean to pop your bubble. I had an interesting
>> weekend last week: I took part in an outdoor art fair, little white
>> tent and all. I had both inkjets and FB prints under glass on the
>> walls, and inkjets only in flip-racks on the side.
>>
>> The most common question the entire weekend is 'what's a carbon-
>> pigment inkjet print?' Good opportunity to educate a lot of people.
>>
>> Many also expressed surprise and amazement at how good the inkjets
>> looked, on the wall next to some of my best FB prints. But there
>> were a few-(not many mind you) that immediately said 'yea, they're
>> good, but I can still see the difference'. That says to me  we (or
>> at least I) still have that 10% to go, though we are so much closer
>> than a couple years ago.
>> And yes, you can make the argument that it is it's own medium and
>> should be accepted on its own terms, but face it-in most ways, for
>> most uses, digital printing isn't really going to be a parallel
>> technology. It is a replacement, and I for one don't want to have
> to
>> make any excuses or feel like we have given up anything in quality
>> for the sake of convenience or whatever. So pardon me if I keep
>> pushing till we get there! (dirty job... etc.,etc.)
>>
>> Steve
>>
>>
>>  --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Shilesh
> Jani"
>> <shileshjani@b...> wrote:
>>>
>>> Steve,
>>>
>>> Thanks a lot - you've just ruined the "feel-good" I was having!
>>>
>>> How's it going? Haven't seen you in a print exchange in a while.
>>> Would love to see more of the Florida Swampland and the Greek
>> Isles.
>>>
>>> Shilesh
>>>
>>> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Steven
>>> Karafyllakis" <steve@s...> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Matte paper might well be reflectionless held in your hand,
> with
>> no
>>>> glass-but if you put a silver gel print, a semi-matte inkjet
>> print
>>>> and a matte inkjet print under glass and hang them on the wall,
>>> they
>>>> all become equally reflective, since you are now looking at the
>>>> reflections of the glass. The factors that do not get equalized
>> are
>>>> the more important ones-the tonal range and dmax of the FB
>> print,
>>>> the better dmax and shadow detail retention of the semi-matte
>>>> inkjet. So I for one (since we seem to be conducting another
>>>> impromptu poll) am not ready to write of the FB look and
>>> advantages.
>>>> I've said it before, I'll say it again: I want it all.
>>>>
>>>>  my 2c worth
>>>>
>>>> Steven Karafyllakis
>>>>
>>>> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Shilesh
>> Jani"
>>>> <shileshjani@b...> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Hear, hear. Now let us (Epson, or anyone else for that matter)
>>> find
>>>> a
>>>>> the K ink which gives us Dmax in the 2 range on matte papers.
>>>>>
>>>>> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clayton
>>>> Jones"
>>>>> <cj@c...> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Paul,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ...they may have a paper that comes close to the fabled
>> silver
>>>>> print,
>>>>>>> but after getting used to matte papers, I'm not sure I
> want
>> to
>>>> go
>>>>>>> back to the silver print look for display prints.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Exactly my sentiments, and "fabled" is a good word.  I held
>> on
>>>> to
>>>>> that
>>>>>> standard in my mind for a long time, but last summer I
>> searched
>>>>>> through a box of old fiber base silver prints (mostly on
>>> Oriental
>>>>>> Seagull, Ilford MGFB and Galerie) looking for something and
>> was
>>>>> struck
>>>>>> by how distracting and annoying the glare and reflections
>>> were.
>>>> I'd
>>>>>> forgotten how bad it was and realized how much I've come to
>>> love
>>>> the
>>>>>> completely reflectionless carbon ink prints.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think that was the final step in completely leaving
> behind
>>> the
>>>>> last
>>>>>> traces of desire to recreate the look of emulsion prints of
>> any
>>>>> sort.
>>>>>> I believe I have now, even subconsciously, fully accepted
> and
>>>>>> embraced the fact that we are working with a different
>> medium.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>> Clayton
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Info on black and white digital printing at
>>>>>> http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>

Steve,

> Matte paper might well be reflectionless held in your hand, with no 
> glass-but if you put a silver gel print, a semi-matte inkjet print 
> and a matte inkjet print under glass and hang them on the wall, they 
> all become equally reflective, since you are now looking at the 
> reflections of the glass. The factors that do not get equalized are 
> the more important ones-the tonal range and dmax of the FB print, 
> the better dmax and shadow detail retention of the semi-matte 
> inkjet. So I for one (since we seem to be conducting another 
> impromptu poll) am not ready to write of the FB look and advantages. 
> I've said it before, I'll say it again: I want it all.

Very true, all good points.  I hope someday we do have it all.  


Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Carl,

In a few days, as soon as my replacement 2400 arrives, I will be 
loading Nanochrome K (as the black ink), the Epson MK (as the 
darkest gray), followed by LK, LLK.

My thought is to restrict the Nanochrome K to the very dark end of 
the scale so its's color does not impact the overall print.

IAH, I am just playing around.

Regards.

Shilesh

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Carl Schofield 
<scho@m...> wrote:
>
> I'll be curious to know how your mixed bag of inks works out.  
Are  
> you intending to use the Nanochrome black with the Epson K3 light  
> blacks?
> 
> Carl
> 
> On Jan 22, 2006, at 8:22 PM, Shilesh Jani wrote:
> 
> > Hell no, it is a pissy, rainy day here anyway - and, I 
understand.
> > When newstand magazines such as B&W and Lenswork are routinely
> > hitting 2.0, it makes me wonder what I am doing accepting the 
1.6 -
> > 1.7 range. The last 2 weeks, I have not done much in my spare 
time
> > than putz around with NanoChromes. At this time I have given up 
the
> > idea that they may be a panacea to all our woes (desires?).
> > But.....the last hope is to use the NanoChrome K with more
> > traditional inks in the LK, LLK, LLLK (sorry, I had to do that
> > because I am working on a Quad set right now). If you push the K 
far
> > enough into the shadows, the cool tone of the ink becomes rather 
moot.
> >
> > Regards.
> >
> > Shilesh
> >
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Steven
> > Karafyllakis" <steve@s...> wrote:
> >>
> >> Sorry Shilesh, didn't mean to pop your bubble. I had an 
interesting
> >> weekend last week: I took part in an outdoor art fair, little 
white
> >> tent and all. I had both inkjets and FB prints under glass on 
the
> >> walls, and inkjets only in flip-racks on the side.
> >>
> >> The most common question the entire weekend is 'what's a carbon-
> >> pigment inkjet print?' Good opportunity to educate a lot of 
people.
> >>
> >> Many also expressed surprise and amazement at how good the 
inkjets
> >> looked, on the wall next to some of my best FB prints. But there
> >> were a few-(not many mind you) that immediately said 'yea, 
they're
> >> good, but I can still see the difference'. That says to me  we 
(or
> >> at least I) still have that 10% to go, though we are so much 
closer
> >> than a couple years ago.
> >> And yes, you can make the argument that it is it's own medium 
and
> >> should be accepted on its own terms, but face it-in most ways, 
for
> >> most uses, digital printing isn't really going to be a parallel
> >> technology. It is a replacement, and I for one don't want to 
have
> > to
> >> make any excuses or feel like we have given up anything in 
quality
> >> for the sake of convenience or whatever. So pardon me if I keep
> >> pushing till we get there! (dirty job... etc.,etc.)
> >>
> >> Steve
> >>
> >>
> >>  --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Shilesh
> > Jani"
> >> <shileshjani@b...> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Steve,
> >>>
> >>> Thanks a lot - you've just ruined the "feel-good" I was having!
> >>>
> >>> How's it going? Haven't seen you in a print exchange in a 
while.
> >>> Would love to see more of the Florida Swampland and the Greek
> >> Isles.
> >>>
> >>> Shilesh
> >>>
> >>> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Steven
> >>> Karafyllakis" <steve@s...> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> Matte paper might well be reflectionless held in your hand,
> > with
> >> no
> >>>> glass-but if you put a silver gel print, a semi-matte inkjet
> >> print
> >>>> and a matte inkjet print under glass and hang them on the 
wall,
> >>> they
> >>>> all become equally reflective, since you are now looking at 
the
> >>>> reflections of the glass. The factors that do not get 
equalized
> >> are
> >>>> the more important ones-the tonal range and dmax of the FB
> >> print,
> >>>> the better dmax and shadow detail retention of the semi-matte
> >>>> inkjet. So I for one (since we seem to be conducting another
> >>>> impromptu poll) am not ready to write of the FB look and
> >>> advantages.
> >>>> I've said it before, I'll say it again: I want it all.
> >>>>
> >>>>  my 2c worth
> >>>>
> >>>> Steven Karafyllakis
> >>>>
> >>>> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Shilesh
> >> Jani"
> >>>> <shileshjani@b...> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Hear, hear. Now let us (Epson, or anyone else for that 
matter)

> >>> find
> >>>> a
> >>>>> the K ink which gives us Dmax in the 2 range on matte papers.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clayton
> >>>> Jones"
> >>>>> <cj@c...> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Paul,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> ...they may have a paper that comes close to the fabled
> >> silver
> >>>>> print,
> >>>>>>> but after getting used to matte papers, I'm not sure I
> > want
> >> to
> >>>> go
> >>>>>>> back to the silver print look for display prints.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Exactly my sentiments, and "fabled" is a good word.  I held
> >> on
> >>>> to
> >>>>> that
> >>>>>> standard in my mind for a long time, but last summer I
> >> searched
> >>>>>> through a box of old fiber base silver prints (mostly on
> >>> Oriental
> >>>>>> Seagull, Ilford MGFB and Galerie) looking for something and
> >> was
> >>>>> struck
> >>>>>> by how distracting and annoying the glare and reflections
> >>> were.
> >>>> I'd
> >>>>>> forgotten how bad it was and realized how much I've come to
> >>> love
> >>>> the
> >>>>>> completely reflectionless carbon ink prints.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I think that was the final step in completely leaving
> > behind
> >>> the
> >>>>> last
> >>>>>> traces of desire to recreate the look of emulsion prints of
> >> any
> >>>>> sort.
> >>>>>> I believe I have now, even subconsciously, fully accepted
> > and
> >>>>>> embraced the fact that we are working with a different
> >> medium.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Regards,
> >>>>>> Clayton
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Info on black and white digital printing at
> >>>>>> http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
>

Shilesh Jani wrote:

> Carl,
>
> In a few days, as soon as my replacement 2400 arrives, I will be
> loading Nanochrome K (as the black ink), the Epson MK (as the
> darkest gray), followed by LK, LLK.
>
> My thought is to restrict the Nanochrome K to the very dark end of
> the scale so its's color does not impact the overall print.
>
> IAH, I am just playing around.
>
> Regards.
>
> Shilesh

Just a dumb question - why aren't you using the NanoChromes as a set? 
What advantage do you see in using the K3s for the color inks? Seems 
like you must be giving up some gamut width, not to mention the fact 
that the NanoChrome K is the correct color to work with the rest of the 
NanoChromes.

So I'm lost. What are you trying to accomplish by mixing the inksets?
--
Bruce Watson

Hello Bruce,
>>In a few days, as soon as my replacement 2400 arrives, I will be
>>loading Nanochrome K (as the black ink), the Epson MK (as the
>>darkest gray), followed by LK, LLK.

>- why aren't you using the NanoChromes as a set? 
>What advantage do you see in using the K3s for the color inks? 

Maybe it's because the Nanos aren't made for the K3 printers - there
is no LLK.  


Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

I'd be interesting in seeing how the Nanochrome inkset would work
running QTR on a 2200. Seems to me that the chief advantage of the
2400 -- the ability to print on glossy papers without the usual UC
gloss differential/bronzing problems -- would be disappear. Further,
with the Nanochromes you would get greater dmax on both matte and
glossy papers. 

Chris Hargens
 


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clayton Jones"
<cj@c...> wrote:

>
> Hello Bruce,
> >>In a few days, as soon as my replacement 2400 arrives, I will be
> >>loading Nanochrome K (as the black ink), the Epson MK (as the
> >>darkest gray), followed by LK, LLK.
> 
> >- why aren't you using the NanoChromes as a set? 
> >What advantage do you see in using the K3s for the color inks? 
> 
> Maybe it's because the Nanos aren't made for the K3 printers - there
> is no LLK.  
> 
> 
> Regards,
> Clayton
> 
> 
> Info on black and white digital printing at    
> http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
>

Nanochrome K underperforms Epson K3 PK, although not by a large visual
amount.  On certain matte papers it seems, judging from some posts here, to
be only as good as Eboni.

> From: Chris Hargens <chargens@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 17:39:33 -0000
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Printing On Gloss...Possible with Digital B&W?
> 
> I'd be interesting in seeing how the Nanochrome inkset would work
> running QTR on a 2200. Seems to me that the chief advantage of the
> 2400 -- the ability to print on glossy papers without the usual UC
> gloss differential/bronzing problems -- would be disappear. Further,
> with the Nanochromes you would get greater dmax on both matte and
> glossy papers. 
> 
> Chris Hargens
>

Hello everyone, I'm back from out of town.

I can see there's been much discussion about printing b&w on glossy 
media while I've been away. Unfortunately, I'm not sure if anyone 
has answered my question. Yes,I could purchase a 2400 printer, but 
until I do, I'm stuck with this 2200 using QTR or Epson drivers. I'm 
just looking for the best possible solution. Will the UT7 inks give 
me reduced bronzing? Must I also use a GLOP? I'd like to learn more 
about this since printing on glossy or semi glossy media is the 
industry standard for what I do. Finding a solution is becoming 
quite complex and I'm starting to feel like a really dumb broad, so 
please be patient with me.

Have a good day!
Joanne


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Chris Hargens" 
<chargens@s...> wrote:
>
> I'd be interesting in seeing how the Nanochrome inkset would work
> running QTR on a 2200. Seems to me that the chief advantage of the
> 2400 -- the ability to print on glossy papers without the usual UC
> gloss differential/bronzing problems -- would be disappear. 
Further,
> with the Nanochromes you would get greater dmax on both matte and
> glossy papers. 
> 
> Chris Hargens
>  
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clayton 
Jones"
> <cj@c...> wrote:
> >
> > Hello Bruce,
> > >>In a few days, as soon as my replacement 2400 arrives, I will 
be
> > >>loading Nanochrome K (as the black ink), the Epson MK (as the
> > >>darkest gray), followed by LK, LLK.
> > 
> > >- why aren't you using the NanoChromes as a set? 
> > >What advantage do you see in using the K3s for the color inks? 
> > 
> > Maybe it's because the Nanos aren't made for the K3 printers - 
there

> > is no LLK.  
> > 
> > 
> > Regards,
> > Clayton
> > 
> > 
> > Info on black and white digital printing at    
> > http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
> >
>

Thanks for the input, Steve. Are you referring to dmax? I'm not trying
to be argumentative, but how do you account then for Daniel Staver's
post (72934)? Also what about gloss differential/bronzing? The
messages I've read suggest that the Nanochrome inkset outperforms K3
in this area.
You've been working with this inkset. What's your impression?


Chris Hargens 


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale
<stevekale@b...> wrote:
>
> Nanochrome K underperforms Epson K3 PK, although not by a large visual
> amount.  On certain matte papers it seems, judging from some posts
here, to
> be only as good as Eboni.
> 
> 
> > From: Chris Hargens <chargens@s...>
> > Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 17:39:33 -0000
> > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Printing On Gloss...Possible with
Digital B&W?

> > 
> > I'd be interesting in seeing how the Nanochrome inkset would work
> > running QTR on a 2200. Seems to me that the chief advantage of the
> > 2400 -- the ability to print on glossy papers without the usual UC
> > gloss differential/bronzing problems -- would be disappear. Further,
> > with the Nanochromes you would get greater dmax on both matte and
> > glossy papers. 
> > 
> > Chris Hargens
> >
>

Hello Jo,

I must ask this: have you printed a b/w photograph with the 2200 
using either the Epson driver or QTR? If so, what do you find lacking 
in the prints? If it is bronzing, then you can spray the prints.

One we know what your exact needs, we can help you further.

Shilesh

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Joanne Emerson" 
<jojo_xmodel@y...> wrote:
>
> Hello everyone, I'm back from out of town.
> 
> I can see there's been much discussion about printing b&w on glossy 
> media while I've been away. Unfortunately, I'm not sure if anyone 
> has answered my question. Yes,I could purchase a 2400 printer, but 
> until I do, I'm stuck with this 2200 using QTR or Epson drivers. 
I'm 
> just looking for the best possible solution. Will the UT7 inks give 
> me reduced bronzing? Must I also use a GLOP? I'd like to learn more 
> about this since printing on glossy or semi glossy media is the 
> industry standard for what I do. Finding a solution is becoming 
> quite complex and I'm starting to feel like a really dumb broad, so 
> please be patient with me.
> 
> Have a good day!
> Joanne
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Chris 
Hargens" 

> <chargens@s...> wrote:
> >
> > I'd be interesting in seeing how the Nanochrome inkset would work
> > running QTR on a 2200. Seems to me that the chief advantage of the
> > 2400 -- the ability to print on glossy papers without the usual UC
> > gloss differential/bronzing problems -- would be disappear. 
> Further,
> > with the Nanochromes you would get greater dmax on both matte and
> > glossy papers. 
> > 
> > Chris Hargens
> >  
> > 
> > 
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clayton 
> Jones"
> > <cj@c...> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hello Bruce,
> > > >>In a few days, as soon as my replacement 2400 arrives, I will 
> be
> > > >>loading Nanochrome K (as the black ink), the Epson MK (as the
> > > >>darkest gray), followed by LK, LLK.
> > > 
> > > >- why aren't you using the NanoChromes as a set? 
> > > >What advantage do you see in using the K3s for the color inks? 
> > > 
> > > Maybe it's because the Nanos aren't made for the K3 printers - 
> there
> > > is no LLK.  
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Regards,
> > > Clayton
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Info on black and white digital printing at    
> > > http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
> > >
> >
>

Bruce,

It is along story - suffice to say I have given up on using 
NanoChrome as a single universal inkset for color, b/w, matte, and RC 
papers because the cool LK is tough to neutralize and take it into 
the warm side of neutral. So, along with that goes my ability to 
print on RC papers (my desire was not there anyway). 

But the NanoChrome K does indeed deliver much greater Dmax (~1.9) on 
Hanhnemuhle rag papers, compared to 1.6 for the Epson MK, and perhaps 
1.7 for Eboni. Going from 1.7 to 1.9 is rather huge. So my thought is 
to create a b/w inkset for matte papers using the NanoChrome K. The 
choice of LK, LLK, LLLK, etc is rather a matter of preference. This 
is all about b/w prints, so color gamut is moot. I will always keep 
the LM and LC (and perhaps Y) for control of tone.

Make sense? I know, it is pure madness!

Shilesh



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, hogarth@s... 
wrote:
>
> Shilesh Jani wrote:
> 
> > Carl,
> >
> > In a few days, as soon as my replacement 2400 arrives, I will be
> > loading Nanochrome K (as the black ink), the Epson MK (as the
> > darkest gray), followed by LK, LLK.
> >
> > My thought is to restrict the Nanochrome K to the very dark end of
> > the scale so its's color does not impact the overall print.
> >
> > IAH, I am just playing around.
> >
> > Regards.
> >
> > Shilesh
> 
> Just a dumb question - why aren't you using the NanoChromes as a 
set? 
> What advantage do you see in using the K3s for the color inks? 
Seems 
> like you must be giving up some gamut width, not to mention the 
fact 
> that the NanoChrome K is the correct color to work with the rest of 
the 
> NanoChromes.
> 
> So I'm lost. What are you trying to accomplish by mixing the 
inksets?

> --
> Bruce Watson
>

Hi Shilesh, yes, I have. I find the results are good on matte paper 
with QTR but not Epson because of the slight color cast. On gloss 
paper using the Epson driver, the prints turn out brown with 
bronzing...very unsatisfactory. Same more or less with QTR. Now bear 
in mind I am using Ultrachrome inks, which is why I'm starting to 
investigate other inks for my 2200 that hopefully will give me more 
favorable results. 

Question: You mention spraying the prints, what do you suggest?

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Shilesh Jani" 
<shileshjani@b...> wrote:
>
> Hello Jo,
> 
> I must ask this: have you printed a b/w photograph with the 2200 
> using either the Epson driver or QTR? If so, what do you find 
lacking 
> in the prints? If it is bronzing, then you can spray the prints.
> 
> One we know what your exact needs, we can help you further.
> 
> Shilesh
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Joanne 
Emerson" 
> <jojo_xmodel@y...> wrote:
> >
> > Hello everyone, I'm back from out of town.
> > 
> > I can see there's been much discussion about printing b&w on 
glossy 
> > media while I've been away. Unfortunately, I'm not sure if 
anyone 
> > has answered my question. Yes,I could purchase a 2400 printer, 
but 
> > until I do, I'm stuck with this 2200 using QTR or Epson drivers. 
> I'm 
> > just looking for the best possible solution. Will the UT7 inks 
give 
> > me reduced bronzing? Must I also use a GLOP? I'd like to learn 
more 
> > about this since printing on glossy or semi glossy media is the 
> > industry standard for what I do. Finding a solution is becoming 
> > quite complex and I'm starting to feel like a really dumb broad, 
so 
> > please be patient with me.
> > 
> > Have a good day!
> > Joanne
> > 
> > 
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Chris 
> Hargens" 
> > <chargens@s...> wrote:
> > >
> > > I'd be interesting in seeing how the Nanochrome inkset would 
work
> > > running QTR on a 2200. Seems to me that the chief advantage of 
the
> > > 2400 -- the ability to print on glossy papers without the 
usual UC
> > > gloss differential/bronzing problems -- would be disappear. 
> > Further,
> > > with the Nanochromes you would get greater dmax on both matte 
and
> > > glossy papers. 
> > > 
> > > Chris Hargens
> > >  
> > > 
> > > 
> > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clayton 
> > Jones"
> > > <cj@c...> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hello Bruce,
> > > > >>In a few days, as soon as my replacement 2400 arrives, I 
will 
> > be
> > > > >>loading Nanochrome K (as the black ink), the Epson MK (as 
the
> > > > >>darkest gray), followed by LK, LLK.
> > > > 
> > > > >- why aren't you using the NanoChromes as a set? 
> > > > >What advantage do you see in using the K3s for the color 
inks? 
> > > > 
> > > > Maybe it's because the Nanos aren't made for the K3 
printers - 

> > there
> > > > is no LLK.  
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > Regards,
> > > > Clayton
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > Info on black and white digital printing at    
> > > > http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

Chris,

NanoChrome on a 2200 does work, and you are right you can print 
glossy and matte, and NO bronzing. Sounds great doesn't it? But wait 
a minute: The K and LK of NanoChrome are rather cold in tone, and can 
be neutralized or taken into the warm spectrum only if you add both 
LM (or M) AND Y. When you add Y you are in rather sticky situation 
becuase the print can swing along the magenta-green axis under 
daylight-flourescent lighting conditions. If you accept slightly 
green prints under fluro lights, you should be fine.

Seeing such a high Dmax AND absolutely no bronzing in a print is a 
joy indeed.

Shilesh

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@...m, "Chris Hargens" 
<chargens@s...> wrote:
>
> I'd be interesting in seeing how the Nanochrome inkset would work
> running QTR on a 2200. Seems to me that the chief advantage of the
> 2400 -- the ability to print on glossy papers without the usual UC
> gloss differential/bronzing problems -- would be disappear. Further,
> with the Nanochromes you would get greater dmax on both matte and
> glossy papers. 
> 
> Chris Hargens
>  
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clayton Jones"
> <cj@c...> wrote:
> >
> > Hello Bruce,
> > >>In a few days, as soon as my replacement 2400 arrives, I will be
> > >>loading Nanochrome K (as the black ink), the Epson MK (as the
> > >>darkest gray), followed by LK, LLK.
> > 
> > >- why aren't you using the NanoChromes as a set? 
> > >What advantage do you see in using the K3s for the color inks? 
> > 
> > Maybe it's because the Nanos aren't made for the K3 printers - 
there

> > is no LLK.  
> > 
> > 
> > Regards,
> > Clayton
> > 
> > 
> > Info on black and white digital printing at    
> > http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
> >
>

Shilesh,

I added the Nanochrome black to my Epson 4000 dual piezo quad setup.   
Works great and I now have the option of producing prints with cool  
shadow tones and a huge dmax on rag papers.  The Nanochrome black  
simply replaced the flush cart in the unused PK position.
So, my inks set-up in the 4000 is as now follows (CS = carbon sepia,  
k7 = Neutral k7):
MK - Piezo k7 MK
C - Piezo CS dark gray
M - Piezo CS mid gray
Y - Piezo k7 light gray #7
PK - Nanochrome K
LC - Piezo k7 dark gray #3
LM - Piezo k7 mid gray #5
LK - Piezo CS light gray

I now have two K's to choose from and 4 profiles to run these quad  
inks.  One set with the piezo MK for k7 neutral and CS and a new  
second set with the Nanochrome K.  The latter gives me cool shadows,  
but also much deeper blacks (dmax 1.9+ vs 1.6+ with the k7 MK) in the  
shadows.  Sort of a subtle split tone appearance in some prints, but  
I'm happy so far with this setup.  I might pull the Nanochrome K back  
into the shadows a bit more.  Pity I can't access both K channels at  
once on the 4000 or I'd use that piezo MK as a very dark gray to  
transition from the Nanochrome K to the dark piezo grays.  I sent you  
the profiles to look at and the icc's will give you a good softproof  
of the print colors.

Carl

On Jan 23, 2006, at 8:34 PM, Shilesh Jani wrote:

> Bruce,
>
> It is along story - suffice to say I have given up on using
> NanoChrome as a single universal inkset for color, b/w, matte, and RC
> papers because the cool LK is tough to neutralize and take it into
> the warm side of neutral. So, along with that goes my ability to
> print on RC papers (my desire was not there anyway).
>
> But the NanoChrome K does indeed deliver much greater Dmax (~1.9) on
> Hanhnemuhle rag papers, compared to 1.6 for the Epson MK, and perhaps
> 1.7 for Eboni. Going from 1.7 to 1.9 is rather huge. So my thought is
> to create a b/w inkset for matte papers using the NanoChrome K. The
> choice of LK, LLK, LLLK, etc is rather a matter of preference. This
> is all about b/w prints, so color gamut is moot. I will always keep
> the LM and LC (and perhaps Y) for control of tone.
>
> Make sense? I know, it is pure madness!
>
> Shilesh
>
>
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, hogarth@s...
> wrote:
>>
>> Shilesh Jani wrote:
>>
>>> Carl,
>>>
>>> In a few days, as soon as my replacement 2400 arrives, I will be
>>> loading Nanochrome K (as the black ink), the Epson MK (as the
>>> darkest gray), followed by LK, LLK.
>>>
>>> My thought is to restrict the Nanochrome K to the very dark end of
>>> the scale so its's color does not impact the overall print.
>>>
>>> IAH, I am just playing around.
>>>
>>> Regards.
>>>
>>> Shilesh
>>
>> Just a dumb question - why aren't you using the NanoChromes as a
> set?
>> What advantage do you see in using the K3s for the color inks?
> Seems
>> like you must be giving up some gamut width, not to mention the
> fact
>> that the NanoChrome K is the correct color to work with the rest of
> the
>> NanoChromes.
>>
>> So I'm lost. What are you trying to accomplish by mixing the
> inksets?
>> --
>> Bruce Watson
>>

Jo,

I am not a sprayer ;-), but I have heard good things about Premier 
Art Print Shield. Many months ago, I had painstakingly sprayed an RC 
print with some acrylic from the art supply store. It was very nice, 
but what a hassle, phew. You can always get prints sprayed 
commercially, I guess.

OK, now I know what you have tried, and what you want improved. 
Neither Paul Roark nor Inksupply (MIS) represent UT7 inks as free 
from bronzing. Infact, Paul talks of using GLOP in the Y position to 
help reduce bronzing with this inkset. So my assumption is that as-is 
UT7 will not be much help in reducing bronzing. Perhaps a kind soul 
in this forum who uses the inkset will volunteer to make a print for 
you.

You may want to check messages in thsi forum by Daniel Staver and 
Steve Karafyllakis who I know have played with GLOP, and perhaps 
others too.

The best, sure-fire bet is to use inks specifically designed to do 
what you want, i.e., the Epson K3 inks. You could easily buy the K, 
LK, and LLK 220 ml carts for the 4800 printer, suck the inks out, 
load them into the 2200 carts, write QTR curves, and viola you've got 
the latest and greatest in RC b/w printing. I bet this will produce 
the LEAST bronzing on RC papers than any other 3rd party b/w 
pigmented inset. Oh, boy I hope I have not vaused a firestorm with 
that last statement. 

If I were going down that path, here is what I would do:

K2200 = PK4800
C2200 = C4800
M2200 = M4800
LC2200 = L4800
LM2200 = L4800
LK2200 = LK4800
Y2200 = LLK4800.

This allows you to neutralize in QTR the otherwise warm PK, LK, and 
LLK.

Sounds like fun, doen't it? Welcome to the neurosis I alluded to 
earlier.

Shilesh

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Joanne Emerson" 
<jojo_xmodel@y...> wrote:
>
> Hi Shilesh, yes, I have. I find the results are good on matte paper 
> with QTR but not Epson because of the slight color cast. On gloss 
> paper using the Epson driver, the prints turn out brown with 
> bronzing...very unsatisfactory. Same more or less with QTR. Now 
bear 
> in mind I am using Ultrachrome inks, which is why I'm starting to 
> investigate other inks for my 2200 that hopefully will give me more 
> favorable results. 
> 
> Question: You mention spraying the prints, what do you suggest?
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Shilesh Jani" 
> <shileshjani@b...> wrote:
> >
> > Hello Jo,
> > 
> > I must ask this: have you printed a b/w photograph with the 2200 
> > using either the Epson driver or QTR? If so, what do you find 
> lacking 
> > in the prints? If it is bronzing, then you can spray the prints.
> > 
> > One we know what your exact needs, we can help you further.
> > 
> > Shilesh
> > 
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Joanne 
> Emerson" 
> > <jojo_xmodel@y...> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hello everyone, I'm back from out of town.
> > > 
> > > I can see there's been much discussion about printing b&w on 
> glossy 
> > > media while I've been away. Unfortunately, I'm not sure if 
> anyone 
> > > has answered my question. Yes,I could purchase a 2400 printer, 
> but 
> > > until I do, I'm stuck with this 2200 using QTR or Epson 
drivers. 
> > I'm 
> > > just looking for the best possible solution. Will the UT7 inks 
> give 
> > > me reduced bronzing? Must I also use a GLOP? I'd like to learn 
> more 
> > > about this since printing on glossy or semi glossy media is the 
> > > industry standard for what I do. Finding a solution is becoming 
> > > quite complex and I'm starting to feel like a really dumb 
broad, 
> so 
> > > please be patient with me.
> > > 
> > > Have a good day!
> > > Joanne
> > > 
> > > 
> > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Chris 
> > Hargens" 
> > > <chargens@s...> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I'd be interesting in seeing how the Nanochrome inkset would 
> work
> > > > running QTR on a 2200. Seems to me that the chief advantage 
of 

> the
> > > > 2400 -- the ability to print on glossy papers without the 
> usual UC
> > > > gloss differential/bronzing problems -- would be disappear. 
> > > Further,
> > > > with the Nanochromes you would get greater dmax on both matte 
> and
> > > > glossy papers. 
> > > > 
> > > > Chris Hargens
> > > >  
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clayton 
> > > Jones"
> > > > <cj@c...> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Hello Bruce,
> > > > > >>In a few days, as soon as my replacement 2400 arrives, I 
> will 
> > > be
> > > > > >>loading Nanochrome K (as the black ink), the Epson MK (as 
> the
> > > > > >>darkest gray), followed by LK, LLK.
> > > > > 
> > > > > >- why aren't you using the NanoChromes as a set? 
> > > > > >What advantage do you see in using the K3s for the color 
> inks? 
> > > > > 
> > > > > Maybe it's because the Nanos aren't made for the K3 
> printers - 
> > > there
> > > > > is no LLK.  
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > Regards,
> > > > > Clayton
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > Info on black and white digital printing at    
> > > > > http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

Hello Joanne,

>I can see there's been much discussion about printing b&w on glossy 
>media while I've been away. Unfortunately, I'm not sure if anyone 
>has answered my question. Yes,I could purchase a 2400 printer, but 
>until I do, I'm stuck with this 2200 using QTR or Epson drivers. I'm 
>just looking for the best possible solution. Will the UT7 inks give 
>me reduced bronzing? Must I also use a GLOP? I'd like to learn more 
>about this since printing on glossy or semi glossy media is the 
>industry standard for what I do. Finding a solution is becoming 
>quite complex and I'm starting to feel like a really dumb broad, so 
>please be patient with me.

I can't answer your question because I only print matte, but maybe I
can offer some perspective as an interested observer.  From
discussions on this forum over the past 2+ years since the 2200
appeared, it seems that glossy printing has never become perfectly
satisfactory.  All sorts of things have been tried including glop and
various sprays, with various inks from UC to UT7 to custom mixtures,
and various softwares from Epson to QTR/IP/IJC, etc., in every
possible combination.

My impression is that the latest MIS ink with the new base is about
as good as it has ever been.  But my sense from reading the posts is
that it's still not perfectly satisfactory (and if I'm wrong on any of
this I hope other folks will jump in here and maybe you'll get the
info you need).  My sense is that the search continues, and people try
one thing and aren't fully satisfied and then try something else.  It
seems endless, with regular discussions of the merits/demerits of
various ink/paper/spray/RIP/curve/workflow combinations.

Out of the fog of battle emerges the 2400 (and other K3 printers),
which apparently the glossy folks are very happy about.  From what I
understand, it produces very fine glossy prints without bronzing,
gloss differential and metamerism, and excellent dmax and smoothness,
with complete tone control and without requiring a RIP (again, if I'm
wrong someone jump in here).

If the above is true, then it seems that it comes down to whether your
personal techno-fiddling patience threshold allows you to stick with
the 2200 and duke it out, or whether you're willing to spend the money
to get a 2400 and avoid all the hassles and save time.  Some people
don't mind tinkering and experimenting (some even love it), and others
have no patience for it and just want to do the photography.

What is your time worth?  Will the time you spend experimenting with
the 2200 searching for a satisfactory solution (and the ink/paper cost
of the same) outweigh the cost buying a 2400 and the time/effort of
selling the 2200?  

I hope this helps.

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Joanne,

Shilesh has described almost exactly what I do, except that I use
IJC/OPM and this is my ink setup:

K2200 = MK4000/4800 (same)
LK2200 = PK4800
C2200 = LK4800
LC2200 = LLK4800
M2200 = LC4800
LM2200 = Krystal Topkote
Y2200 = R800 blue.

I chose the blue and the LC after testing. R800 red is also good, if
you like warm tones. The Topkote and the blue could be switched, of
course. It doesn't matter to me, because I overcoat on a second pass.

I've sent you an email.

Best,
Helen

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Shilesh Jani"
<shileshjani@b...> wrote:
>
> Jo,
> 
...

> 
> The best, sure-fire bet is to use inks specifically designed to do 
> what you want, i.e., the Epson K3 inks. You could easily buy the K, 
> LK, and LLK 220 ml carts for the 4800 printer, suck the inks out, 
> load them into the 2200 carts, write QTR curves, and viola you've got 
> the latest and greatest in RC b/w printing. I bet this will produce 
> the LEAST bronzing on RC papers than any other 3rd party b/w 
> pigmented inset. Oh, boy I hope I have not vaused a firestorm with 
> that last statement. 
> 
> If I were going down that path, here is what I would do:
> 
> K2200 = PK4800
> C2200 = C4800
> M2200 = M4800
> LC2200 = L4800
> LM2200 = L4800
> LK2200 = LK4800
> Y2200 = LLK4800.
> 
> This allows you to neutralize in QTR the otherwise warm PK, LK, and 
> LLK.
> 
> Sounds like fun, doen't it? Welcome to the neurosis I alluded to 
> earlier.
> 
> Shilesh

Oops, I should have added the comparisons between overcoating with
Krystal Topkote, Printshield and Sureguard. I'll do that tomorrow.

Best,
Helen

Clayton,

Well put. The only minor clarification: the K3 class of printers have 
significantly REDUCED bronzing, not eliminated it. I can see it when 
holding prints in my hands, I doubt it will be a factor behind glass.

Shilesh

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clayton Jones" 
<cj@c...> wrote:
>
> Hello Joanne,
> 
> >I can see there's been much discussion about printing b&w on 
glossy 
> >media while I've been away. Unfortunately, I'm not sure if anyone 
> >has answered my question. Yes,I could purchase a 2400 printer, but 
> >until I do, I'm stuck with this 2200 using QTR or Epson drivers. 
I'm 
> >just looking for the best possible solution. Will the UT7 inks 
give 
> >me reduced bronzing? Must I also use a GLOP? I'd like to learn 
more 
> >about this since printing on glossy or semi glossy media is the 
> >industry standard for what I do. Finding a solution is becoming 
> >quite complex and I'm starting to feel like a really dumb broad, 
so 
> >please be patient with me.
> 
> I can't answer your question because I only print matte, but maybe I
> can offer some perspective as an interested observer.  From
> discussions on this forum over the past 2+ years since the 2200
> appeared, it seems that glossy printing has never become perfectly
> satisfactory.  All sorts of things have been tried including glop 
and
> various sprays, with various inks from UC to UT7 to custom mixtures,
> and various softwares from Epson to QTR/IP/IJC, etc., in every
> possible combination.
> 
> My impression is that the latest MIS ink with the new base is about
> as good as it has ever been.  But my sense from reading the posts is
> that it's still not perfectly satisfactory (and if I'm wrong on any 
of
> this I hope other folks will jump in here and maybe you'll get the
> info you need).  My sense is that the search continues, and people 
try
> one thing and aren't fully satisfied and then try something else.  
It
> seems endless, with regular discussions of the merits/demerits of
> various ink/paper/spray/RIP/curve/workflow combinations.
> 
> Out of the fog of battle emerges the 2400 (and other K3 printers),
> which apparently the glossy folks are very happy about.  From what I
> understand, it produces very fine glossy prints without bronzing,
> gloss differential and metamerism, and excellent dmax and 
smoothness,
> with complete tone control and without requiring a RIP (again, if 
I'm
> wrong someone jump in here).
> 
> If the above is true, then it seems that it comes down to whether 
your
> personal techno-fiddling patience threshold allows you to stick with
> the 2200 and duke it out, or whether you're willing to spend the 
money
> to get a 2400 and avoid all the hassles and save time.  Some people
> don't mind tinkering and experimenting (some even love it), and 
others
> have no patience for it and just want to do the photography.
> 
> What is your time worth?  Will the time you spend experimenting with
> the 2200 searching for a satisfactory solution (and the ink/paper 
cost

> of the same) outweigh the cost buying a 2400 and the time/effort of
> selling the 2200?  
> 
> I hope this helps.
> 
> Regards,
> Clayton
> 
> 
> Info on black and white digital printing at    
> http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
>

Way to go, Helen!

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "helen_bach2003" 
<helenbach@h...> wrote:
>
> Joanne,
> 
> Shilesh has described almost exactly what I do, except that I use
> IJC/OPM and this is my ink setup:
> 
> K2200 = MK4000/4800 (same)
> LK2200 = PK4800
> C2200 = LK4800
> LC2200 = LLK4800
> M2200 = LC4800
> LM2200 = Krystal Topkote
> Y2200 = R800 blue.
> 
> I chose the blue and the LC after testing. R800 red is also good, if
> you like warm tones. The Topkote and the blue could be switched, of
> course. It doesn't matter to me, because I overcoat on a second 
pass.
> 
> I've sent you an email.
> 
> Best,
> Helen
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Shilesh Jani"
> <shileshjani@b...> wrote:
> >
> > Jo,
> > 
> ...
> > 
> > The best, sure-fire bet is to use inks specifically designed to 
do 
> > what you want, i.e., the Epson K3 inks. You could easily buy the 
K, 
> > LK, and LLK 220 ml carts for the 4800 printer, suck the inks out, 
> > load them into the 2200 carts, write QTR curves, and viola you've 
got 
> > the latest and greatest in RC b/w printing. I bet this will 
produce 
> > the LEAST bronzing on RC papers than any other 3rd party b/w 
> > pigmented inset. Oh, boy I hope I have not vaused a firestorm 
with 
> > that last statement. 
> > 
> > If I were going down that path, here is what I would do:
> > 
> > K2200 = PK4800
> > C2200 = C4800
> > M2200 = M4800
> > LC2200 = L4800
> > LM2200 = L4800
> > LK2200 = LK4800
> > Y2200 = LLK4800.
> > 
> > This allows you to neutralize in QTR the otherwise warm PK, LK, 
and 

> > LLK.
> > 
> > Sounds like fun, doen't it? Welcome to the neurosis I alluded to 
> > earlier.
> > 
> > Shilesh
>

Shilesh;

I'm currently using the MIS version of the K3 inks (K4), and my 
eperience is that they bronze LESS than the Epsons. At least when I 
finally changed out the PK the last of the bronzing went away and 
glop became virtually pointless. The downside is that the Epson PK 
produces a tiny bit better Dmax, but nothing really significant.

> So my assumption is that as-is 
> UT7 will not be much help in reducing bronzing. Perhaps a kind 
soul 
> in this forum who uses the inkset will volunteer to make a print 
for 
> you.

If the K4 PK LK and LLK combination is of interest, I'd be happy to 
provide a sample print. Perhaps someone else can provide the 
eqivalent in K3 for comparison?

Personally, I think if Jo is game enough to dive into QTR and 
refilling, she would do better to go straight to the readily 
available and much less expensive MIS K4 rather than draining 4800 
Epson carts. The cost difference over the long haul is significant, 
and quantity headshots in the modeling world bring in very little $ 
per print. 

> You may want to check messages in thsi forum by Daniel Staver and 
> Steve Karafyllakis who I know have played with GLOP, and perhaps 
> others too.

> ... Paul talks of using GLOP in the Y position to
> help reduce bronzing with this inkset. So my assumption is that as-is
> UT7 will not be much help in reducing bronzing...

With the current MIS inks -- including UT2 and  UT7 -- I no longer recommend
Glop.  

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

You said on "both matte and glossy papers".  On certain matte papers Nano NK
performs very well, eg HPR and HPR Satin.  It has a "normal" response on
Epson Archival Matte and PremierArt Hot Press.  Epson PK does slightly
better on RC papers but of course you have bronzing and gloss differential
to worry about.

> From: Chris Hargens <chargens@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 23:50:50 -0000
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Printing On Gloss...Possible with Digital B&W?
> 
> Thanks for the input, Steve. Are you referring to dmax? I'm not trying
> to be argumentative, but how do you account then for Daniel Staver's
> post (72934)? Also what about gloss differential/bronzing? The
> messages I've read suggest that the Nanochrome inkset outperforms K3
> in this area.
> You've been working with this inkset. What's your impression?
> 
> 
> Chris Hargens 
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale
> <stevekale@b...> wrote:
>> 
>> Nanochrome K underperforms Epson K3 PK, although not by a large visual
>> amount.  On certain matte papers it seems, judging from some posts
> here, to
>> be only as good as Eboni.
>> 
>> 
>>> From: Chris Hargens <chargens@s...>
>>> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
>>> Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 17:39:33 -0000
>>> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
>>> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Printing On Gloss...Possible with
> Digital B&W?
>>> 
>>> I'd be interesting in seeing how the Nanochrome inkset would work
>>> running QTR on a 2200. Seems to me that the chief advantage of the
>>> 2400 -- the ability to print on glossy papers without the usual UC
>>> gloss differential/bronzing problems -- would be disappear. Further,
>>> with the Nanochromes you would get greater dmax on both matte and
>>> glossy papers. 
>>> 
>>> Chris Hargens
>>>

That sounds like the definition of illuminant metamerism.
Would the following statement be correct?  When printed at the inksets
native gray tone(s), the prints are metamerism free, but when profiled to
produce neutral D50 grays, the prints exhibits illuminant metamerism.

Best regards,
John Moody

-----Original Message-----
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Shilesh
Jani
Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 8:44 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Printing On Gloss...Possible with Digital B&W?

Chris,

NanoChrome on a 2200 does work, and you are right you can print
glossy and matte, and NO bronzing. Sounds great doesn't it? But wait
a minute: The K and LK of NanoChrome are rather cold in tone, and can
be neutralized or taken into the warm spectrum only if you add both
LM (or M) AND Y. When you add Y you are in rather sticky situation
becuase the print can swing along the magenta-green axis under
daylight-flourescent lighting conditions. If you accept slightly
green prints under fluro lights, you should be fine.

Seeing such a high Dmax AND absolutely no bronzing in a print is a
joy indeed.

Shilesh




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Steven
Karafyllakis" <steve@s...> wrote:

> If the K4 PK LK and LLK combination is of interest, I'd be happy to 
> provide a sample print. Perhaps someone else can provide the 
> eqivalent in K3 for comparison?
> 

And I'd be happy to send her a 2200/K3 and 2200/K3 + Krystal Topkote.
I had already made the offer by email.

I don't think that the vague bundle of half-baked reasons I have for
using the K3 inks would apply to the headshot business.

Thoughts about doing headshots with a 2200 and QTR: just out of
interest how long does it take to do a letter/A4 sized print with QTR?
Wouldn't it be a good idea to offer colour as well? I do wonder if
this isn't one case where printing onto light-sensitive paper (I'm not
going to call it analogue) is the cheapest and best way of doing it.

Best,
Helen

Silver printing of headshots for serious marketeers (eg for adolescent
models, managers of 50 years old motel lounge rock bands or aging
former starlets) involves hundreds of prints and costs start at around
$2.50 each, dropping  to  $.50 each or less (depending on
middlemen)...the standard and cheapest  when the headshots are
lithographic. 

Nobody important cares about gloss for headshots, it's only a
photographer's affectation. It has nothing to do with utility, whether
portfolio or reproduction. In any case, the utility of printed
headshots is vanishing...the main distribution is now online anyway.

Ordinarily the images require captions, which when photographically
printed means they are contact printed for sharpness...they're
sometimes even gang printed (eg 4-up) and cut.

I don't think inkjet printing can do a typical order of, say, 500,
within a time frame that allows the work to be done
economically...even at minimum wage. Better to have the work done in
India. 

Check it out. Visit labs or websites that deliver the services. 

Djon

>   I do wonder if
> this isn't one case where printing onto light-sensitive paper (I'm not
> going to call it analogue) is the cheapest and best way of doing it.
> 
> Best,
> Helen
>

What you say makes sense. But it leads me to also question the
Nanochrome for color printing since it appears that in color prints
your neutrals would be susceptible to color shifts under changing
lighting conditions. Of course all prints do this to some extent. When
I print color on Entrada Natura and the print emerges from my 2200
under the room's fluorescent light -- I do the PS edit in the dark --
it usually looks slightly yellowish to me; but when I view the print
under natural light, or my Ott-lite, the apparent color cast
disappears. Unlike the metamerism I see in 2200 UC BW prints using the
Epson driver, this change in tone seems like natural phenomena of
lighting rather than a weird byproduct of combining different colored
pigments to achieve a neutral gray.

Chris Hargens




--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Shilesh Jani"
<shileshjani@b...> wrote:

>
> Chris,
> 
> NanoChrome on a 2200 does work, and you are right you can print 
> glossy and matte, and NO bronzing. Sounds great doesn't it? But wait 
> a minute: The K and LK of NanoChrome are rather cold in tone, and can 
> be neutralized or taken into the warm spectrum only if you add both 
> LM (or M) AND Y. When you add Y you are in rather sticky situation 
> becuase the print can swing along the magenta-green axis under 
> daylight-flourescent lighting conditions. If you accept slightly 
> green prints under fluro lights, you should be fine.
> 
> Seeing such a high Dmax AND absolutely no bronzing in a print is a 
> joy indeed.
> 
> Shilesh
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Chris Hargens" 
> <chargens@s...> wrote:
> >
> > I'd be interesting in seeing how the Nanochrome inkset would work
> > running QTR on a 2200. Seems to me that the chief advantage of the
> > 2400 -- the ability to print on glossy papers without the usual UC
> > gloss differential/bronzing problems -- would be disappear. Further,
> > with the Nanochromes you would get greater dmax on both matte and
> > glossy papers. 
> > 
> > Chris Hargens
> >  
> > 
> > 
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clayton Jones"
> > <cj@c...> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hello Bruce,
> > > >>In a few days, as soon as my replacement 2400 arrives, I will be
> > > >>loading Nanochrome K (as the black ink), the Epson MK (as the
> > > >>darkest gray), followed by LK, LLK.
> > > 
> > > >- why aren't you using the NanoChromes as a set? 
> > > >What advantage do you see in using the K3s for the color inks? 
> > > 
> > > Maybe it's because the Nanos aren't made for the K3 printers - 
> there
> > > is no LLK.  
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Regards,
> > > Clayton
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Info on black and white digital printing at    
> > > http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
> > >
> >
>

--- In 
DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "helen_bach2003" 
<helenbach@h...> wrote:
>
> Joanne,
> 
> Shilesh has described almost exactly what I do, except that I use
> IJC/OPM and this is my ink setup:
> 
> K2200 = MK4000/4800 (same)
> LK2200 = PK4800
> C2200 = LK4800
> LC2200 = LLK4800
> M2200 = LC4800
> LM2200 = Krystal Topkote
> Y2200 = R800 blue.
> 
> I chose the blue and the LC after testing. R800 red is also good, 
if
> you like warm tones. The Topkote and the blue could be switched, of
> course. It doesn't matter to me, because I overcoat on a second 
pass.
> 
> I've sent you an email.
> 
> Best,
> Helen
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Shilesh Jani"
> <shileshjani@b...> wrote:
> >
> > Jo,
> > 
> ...
> > 
> > The best, sure-fire bet is to use inks specifically designed to 
do 
> > what you want, i.e., the Epson K3 inks. You could easily buy the 
K, 
> > LK, and LLK 220 ml carts for the 4800 printer, suck the inks 
out, 
> > load them into the 2200 carts, write QTR curves, and viola 
you've got 
> > the latest and greatest in RC b/w printing. I bet this will 
produce 
> > the LEAST bronzing on RC papers than any other 3rd party b/w 
> > pigmented inset. Oh, boy I hope I have not vaused a firestorm 
with 
> > that last statement. 
> > 
> > If I were going down that path, here is what I would do:
> > 
> > K2200 = PK4800
> > C2200 = C4800
> > M2200 = M4800
> > LC2200 = L4800
> > LM2200 = L4800
> > LK2200 = LK4800
> > Y2200 = LLK4800.
> > 
> > This allows you to neutralize in QTR the otherwise warm PK, LK, 
and 

> > LLK.
> > 
> > Sounds like fun, doen't it? Welcome to the neurosis I alluded to 
> > earlier.
> > 
> > Shilesh
>

Helen, Shilesh...so if I understand you both correctly, you buy ink 
carts for the 4800 printer and use these inks in the empty 2200 
carts? Man, that sounds messy and quite labor intensive. What about 
these Nanochrome inks for the 2200? Is there less bronzing with 
them?  How can I find out more about these inks?

Jo


--- In 
DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "helen_bach2003" 
<helenbach@h...> wrote:
>
> Joanne,
> 
> Shilesh has described almost exactly what I do, except that I use
> IJC/OPM and this is my ink setup:
> 
> K2200 = MK4000/4800 (same)
> LK2200 = PK4800
> C2200 = LK4800
> LC2200 = LLK4800
> M2200 = LC4800
> LM2200 = Krystal Topkote
> Y2200 = R800 blue.
> 
> I chose the blue and the LC after testing. R800 red is also good, 
if
> you like warm tones. The Topkote and the blue could be switched, of
> course. It doesn't matter to me, because I overcoat on a second 
pass.
> 
> I've sent you an email.
> 
> Best,
> Helen
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Shilesh Jani"
> <shileshjani@b...> wrote:
> >
> > Jo,
> > 
> ...
> > 
> > The best, sure-fire bet is to use inks specifically designed to 
do 
> > what you want, i.e., the Epson K3 inks. You could easily buy the 
K, 
> > LK, and LLK 220 ml carts for the 4800 printer, suck the inks 
out, 
> > load them into the 2200 carts, write QTR curves, and viola 
you've got 
> > the latest and greatest in RC b/w printing. I bet this will 
produce 
> > the LEAST bronzing on RC papers than any other 3rd party b/w 
> > pigmented inset. Oh, boy I hope I have not vaused a firestorm 
with 
> > that last statement. 
> > 
> > If I were going down that path, here is what I would do:
> > 
> > K2200 = PK4800
> > C2200 = C4800
> > M2200 = M4800
> > LC2200 = L4800
> > LM2200 = L4800
> > LK2200 = LK4800
> > Y2200 = LLK4800.
> > 
> > This allows you to neutralize in QTR the otherwise warm PK, LK, 
and 

> > LLK.
> > 
> > Sounds like fun, doen't it? Welcome to the neurosis I alluded to 
> > earlier.
> > 
> > Shilesh
>

Thank you, Clayton!

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clayton Jones" 
<cj@c...> wrote:
>
> Hello Joanne,
> 
> >I can see there's been much discussion about printing b&w on 
glossy 
> >media while I've been away. Unfortunately, I'm not sure if anyone 
> >has answered my question. Yes,I could purchase a 2400 printer, 
but 
> >until I do, I'm stuck with this 2200 using QTR or Epson drivers. 
I'm 
> >just looking for the best possible solution. Will the UT7 inks 
give 
> >me reduced bronzing? Must I also use a GLOP? I'd like to learn 
more 
> >about this since printing on glossy or semi glossy media is the 
> >industry standard for what I do. Finding a solution is becoming 
> >quite complex and I'm starting to feel like a really dumb broad, 
so 
> >please be patient with me.
> 
> I can't answer your question because I only print matte, but maybe 
I
> can offer some perspective as an interested observer.  From
> discussions on this forum over the past 2+ years since the 2200
> appeared, it seems that glossy printing has never become perfectly
> satisfactory.  All sorts of things have been tried including glop 
and
> various sprays, with various inks from UC to UT7 to custom 
mixtures,
> and various softwares from Epson to QTR/IP/IJC, etc., in every
> possible combination.
> 
> My impression is that the latest MIS ink with the new base is about
> as good as it has ever been.  But my sense from reading the posts 
is
> that it's still not perfectly satisfactory (and if I'm wrong on 
any of
> this I hope other folks will jump in here and maybe you'll get the
> info you need).  My sense is that the search continues, and people 
try
> one thing and aren't fully satisfied and then try something else.  
It
> seems endless, with regular discussions of the merits/demerits of
> various ink/paper/spray/RIP/curve/workflow combinations.
> 
> Out of the fog of battle emerges the 2400 (and other K3 printers),
> which apparently the glossy folks are very happy about.  From what 
I
> understand, it produces very fine glossy prints without bronzing,
> gloss differential and metamerism, and excellent dmax and 
smoothness,
> with complete tone control and without requiring a RIP (again, if 
I'm
> wrong someone jump in here).
> 
> If the above is true, then it seems that it comes down to whether 
your
> personal techno-fiddling patience threshold allows you to stick 
with
> the 2200 and duke it out, or whether you're willing to spend the 
money
> to get a 2400 and avoid all the hassles and save time.  Some people
> don't mind tinkering and experimenting (some even love it), and 
others
> have no patience for it and just want to do the photography.
> 
> What is your time worth?  Will the time you spend experimenting 
with
> the 2200 searching for a satisfactory solution (and the ink/paper 
cost

> of the same) outweigh the cost buying a 2400 and the time/effort of
> selling the 2200?  
> 
> I hope this helps.
> 
> Regards,
> Clayton
> 
> 
> Info on black and white digital printing at    
> http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
>

Joanne,

Look at the last posting by Steve Karafyllakis. He has volunteered 
to print with MIS K4 inks for you, and I can offer the exact same 
photograph printed on a 2400 using Epson K3 inks. Send us an email 
with the image you want printed.

Shilesh

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Joanne 
Emerson" <jojo_xmodel@y...> wrote:
>
> Thank you, Clayton!
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clayton 
Jones" 
> <cj@c...> wrote:
> >
> > Hello Joanne,
> > 
> > >I can see there's been much discussion about printing b&w on 
> glossy 
> > >media while I've been away. Unfortunately, I'm not sure if 
anyone 
> > >has answered my question. Yes,I could purchase a 2400 printer, 
> but 
> > >until I do, I'm stuck with this 2200 using QTR or Epson 
drivers. 
> I'm 
> > >just looking for the best possible solution. Will the UT7 inks 
> give 
> > >me reduced bronzing? Must I also use a GLOP? I'd like to learn 
> more 
> > >about this since printing on glossy or semi glossy media is the 
> > >industry standard for what I do. Finding a solution is becoming 
> > >quite complex and I'm starting to feel like a really dumb 
broad, 
> so 
> > >please be patient with me.
> > 
> > I can't answer your question because I only print matte, but 
maybe 
> I
> > can offer some perspective as an interested observer.  From
> > discussions on this forum over the past 2+ years since the 2200
> > appeared, it seems that glossy printing has never become 
perfectly
> > satisfactory.  All sorts of things have been tried including 
glop 
> and
> > various sprays, with various inks from UC to UT7 to custom 
> mixtures,
> > and various softwares from Epson to QTR/IP/IJC, etc., in every
> > possible combination.
> > 
> > My impression is that the latest MIS ink with the new base is 
about
> > as good as it has ever been.  But my sense from reading the 
posts 
> is
> > that it's still not perfectly satisfactory (and if I'm wrong on 
> any of
> > this I hope other folks will jump in here and maybe you'll get 
the
> > info you need).  My sense is that the search continues, and 
people 
> try
> > one thing and aren't fully satisfied and then try something 
else.  
> It
> > seems endless, with regular discussions of the merits/demerits of
> > various ink/paper/spray/RIP/curve/workflow combinations.
> > 
> > Out of the fog of battle emerges the 2400 (and other K3 
printers),
> > which apparently the glossy folks are very happy about.  From 
what 
> I
> > understand, it produces very fine glossy prints without bronzing,
> > gloss differential and metamerism, and excellent dmax and 
> smoothness,
> > with complete tone control and without requiring a RIP (again, 
if 
> I'm
> > wrong someone jump in here).
> > 
> > If the above is true, then it seems that it comes down to 
whether 
> your
> > personal techno-fiddling patience threshold allows you to stick 
> with
> > the 2200 and duke it out, or whether you're willing to spend the 
> money
> > to get a 2400 and avoid all the hassles and save time.  Some 
people
> > don't mind tinkering and experimenting (some even love it), and 
> others
> > have no patience for it and just want to do the photography.
> > 
> > What is your time worth?  Will the time you spend experimenting 
> with
> > the 2200 searching for a satisfactory solution (and the 
ink/paper 
> cost
> > of the same) outweigh the cost buying a 2400 and the time/effort 
of

> > selling the 2200?  
> > 
> > I hope this helps.
> > 
> > Regards,
> > Clayton
> > 
> > 
> > Info on black and white digital printing at    
> > http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
> >
>

Jo,

Emptying a 4800 cartridge is no big deal. If you are willing to fill
your own, the extra work involved in emptying the simple cartridges is
trivial.

It looks like you have the opportunity to do an interesting
comparison: K4 inks from Steve, proper K3 from Shilesh and pseudo
K3+Topkote from me.

Best,
Helen


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Joanne Emerson"
<jojo_xmodel@y...> wrote:

>
> Helen, Shilesh...so if I understand you both correctly, you buy ink 
> carts for the 4800 printer and use these inks in the empty 2200 
> carts? Man, that sounds messy and quite labor intensive. What about 
> these Nanochrome inks for the 2200? Is there less bronzing with 
> them?  How can I find out more about these inks?
> 
> Jo

Helen, Joanne, Steve,

Would you be interested in a mini technical exchange?

Shilesh

--- In 
DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "helen_bach2003" 
<helenbach@h...> wrote:
>
> Jo,
> 
> Emptying a 4800 cartridge is no big deal. If you are willing to 
fill
> your own, the extra work involved in emptying the simple 
cartridges is
> trivial.
> 
> It looks like you have the opportunity to do an interesting
> comparison: K4 inks from Steve, proper K3 from Shilesh and pseudo
> K3+Topkote from me.
> 
> Best,
> Helen
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Joanne 
Emerson"
> <jojo_xmodel@y...> wrote:
> >
> > Helen, Shilesh...so if I understand you both correctly, you buy 
ink 
> > carts for the 4800 printer and use these inks in the empty 2200 
> > carts? Man, that sounds messy and quite labor intensive. What 
about 

> > these Nanochrome inks for the 2200? Is there less bronzing with 
> > them?  How can I find out more about these inks?
> > 
> > Jo
>

Djon, you are correct in your comment about the economies of scale 
of printing offered by labs. But I am not a high volume operator. So 
to go that route at this time would not offer me any significant 
advantage. And yes, most intermediate to professional models do have 
a website, but black and white headshots, full length, 3/4 length, 
etc. shots (although it may seem old school) are still the industry 
standard for younger models as requested by their agents and 
agencies. When I started in the business in my late teens it was a 
necessity, maybe not anymore but still quite in demand.
 
Jo

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "djon43" 
<djon43@y...> wrote:
>
>  
> Silver printing of headshots for serious marketeers (eg for 
adolescent
> models, managers of 50 years old motel lounge rock bands or aging
> former starlets) involves hundreds of prints and costs start at 
around
> $2.50 each, dropping  to  $.50 each or less (depending on
> middlemen)...the standard and cheapest  when the headshots are
> lithographic. 
> 
> Nobody important cares about gloss for headshots, it's only a
> photographer's affectation. It has nothing to do with utility, 
whether
> portfolio or reproduction. In any case, the utility of printed
> headshots is vanishing...the main distribution is now online 
anyway.
> 
> Ordinarily the images require captions, which when photographically
> printed means they are contact printed for sharpness...they're
> sometimes even gang printed (eg 4-up) and cut.
> 
> I don't think inkjet printing can do a typical order of, say, 500,
> within a time frame that allows the work to be done
> economically...even at minimum wage. Better to have the work done 
in
> India. 
> 
> Check it out. Visit labs or websites that deliver the services. 
> 
> Djon
> 
> 
> 
> 
> >   I do wonder if
> > this isn't one case where printing onto light-sensitive paper 
(I'm not
> > going to call it analogue) is the cheapest and best way of doing 
it.

> > 
> > Best,
> > Helen
> >
>

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "helen_bach2003" 
<helenbach@h...> wrote:
>
> Jo,
> 
> Emptying a 4800 cartridge is no big deal. If you are willing to fill
> your own, the extra work involved in emptying the simple cartridges 
is
> trivial.
> 


Trivial almost makes it sound difficult. Slit the label, pop the 
cover, cut a corner off the bad and empty. The now dead empties can 
be used to make a CIS by those that are interested in such things.

Shilesh, I'm a little new to this but where can I find more info on 
the MIS K4 inks? I've searched their website and cannot find any 
reference to these inks. Can you tell me more about them?

Jo
--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Shilesh Jani" 
<shileshjani@b...> wrote:
>
> Joanne,
> 
> Look at the last posting by Steve Karafyllakis. He has volunteered 
> to print with MIS K4 inks for you, and I can offer the exact same 
> photograph printed on a 2400 using Epson K3 inks. Send us an email 
> with the image you want printed.
> 
> Shilesh
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Joanne 
> Emerson" <jojo_xmodel@y...> wrote:
> >
> > Thank you, Clayton!
> > 
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clayton 
> Jones" 
> > <cj@c...> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hello Joanne,
> > > 
> > > >I can see there's been much discussion about printing b&w on 
> > glossy 
> > > >media while I've been away. Unfortunately, I'm not sure if 
> anyone 
> > > >has answered my question. Yes,I could purchase a 2400 
printer, 
> > but 
> > > >until I do, I'm stuck with this 2200 using QTR or Epson 
> drivers. 
> > I'm 
> > > >just looking for the best possible solution. Will the UT7 
inks 
> > give 
> > > >me reduced bronzing? Must I also use a GLOP? I'd like to 
learn 
> > more 
> > > >about this since printing on glossy or semi glossy media is 
the 
> > > >industry standard for what I do. Finding a solution is 
becoming 
> > > >quite complex and I'm starting to feel like a really dumb 
> broad, 
> > so 
> > > >please be patient with me.
> > > 
> > > I can't answer your question because I only print matte, but 
> maybe 
> > I
> > > can offer some perspective as an interested observer.  From
> > > discussions on this forum over the past 2+ years since the 2200
> > > appeared, it seems that glossy printing has never become 
> perfectly
> > > satisfactory.  All sorts of things have been tried including 
> glop 
> > and
> > > various sprays, with various inks from UC to UT7 to custom 
> > mixtures,
> > > and various softwares from Epson to QTR/IP/IJC, etc., in every
> > > possible combination.
> > > 
> > > My impression is that the latest MIS ink with the new base is 
> about
> > > as good as it has ever been.  But my sense from reading the 
> posts 
> > is
> > > that it's still not perfectly satisfactory (and if I'm wrong 
on 
> > any of
> > > this I hope other folks will jump in here and maybe you'll get 
> the
> > > info you need).  My sense is that the search continues, and 
> people 
> > try
> > > one thing and aren't fully satisfied and then try something 
> else.  
> > It
> > > seems endless, with regular discussions of the merits/demerits 
of
> > > various ink/paper/spray/RIP/curve/workflow combinations.
> > > 
> > > Out of the fog of battle emerges the 2400 (and other K3 
> printers),
> > > which apparently the glossy folks are very happy about.  From 
> what 
> > I
> > > understand, it produces very fine glossy prints without 
bronzing,
> > > gloss differential and metamerism, and excellent dmax and 
> > smoothness,
> > > with complete tone control and without requiring a RIP (again, 
> if 
> > I'm
> > > wrong someone jump in here).
> > > 
> > > If the above is true, then it seems that it comes down to 
> whether 
> > your
> > > personal techno-fiddling patience threshold allows you to 
stick 
> > with
> > > the 2200 and duke it out, or whether you're willing to spend 
the 
> > money
> > > to get a 2400 and avoid all the hassles and save time.  Some 
> people
> > > don't mind tinkering and experimenting (some even love it), 
and 
> > others
> > > have no patience for it and just want to do the photography.
> > > 
> > > What is your time worth?  Will the time you spend 
experimenting 
> > with
> > > the 2200 searching for a satisfactory solution (and the 
> ink/paper 
> > cost
> > > of the same) outweigh the cost buying a 2400 and the 
time/effort 

> of
> > > selling the 2200?  
> > > 
> > > I hope this helps.
> > > 
> > > Regards,
> > > Clayton
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Info on black and white digital printing at    
> > > http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
> > >
> >
>

Joanne,

Here it is:

http://www.inksupply.com/arcink_k4.cfm

Please note that this inkset is recommended for 2400, etc printers. 
It includes LLK (which your 2200 does not have). So you will have to 
sacrifice one of the color ink positions on your 2200. I would get 
PK, C, LC, M, LM, LK, and LLK if I were you - you scarifice Y (which 
will limit your ability to print sepia). The esesntial inks are PK, 
LK, LLK, LM, and LC, the rest is up to you.

MIS does not appear to prefill these inks for the 2200, so you will 
have to fill them yourself.

http://www.inksupply.com/epsoncarts_xx.cfm

These do NOT appear to be spongless carts, so there may be some 
filling technique issues (vacuum fill?).

Let me know if you are interested in receiving Epson 2400 K3 prints 
from me, preferably of one of your images.

Shilesh

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Joanne Emerson" 
<jojo_xmodel@y...> wrote:
>
> Shilesh, I'm a little new to this but where can I find more info on 
> the MIS K4 inks? I've searched their website and cannot find any 
> reference to these inks. Can you tell me more about them?
> 
> Jo
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Shilesh Jani" 
> <shileshjani@b...> wrote:
> >
> > Joanne,
> > 
> > Look at the last posting by Steve Karafyllakis. He has 
volunteered 
> > to print with MIS K4 inks for you, and I can offer the exact same 
> > photograph printed on a 2400 using Epson K3 inks. Send us an 
email 
> > with the image you want printed.
> > 
> > Shilesh
> > 
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Joanne 
> > Emerson" <jojo_xmodel@y...> wrote:
> > >
> > > Thank you, Clayton!
> > > 
> > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clayton 
> > Jones" 
> > > <cj@c...> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hello Joanne,
> > > > 
> > > > >I can see there's been much discussion about printing b&w on 
> > > glossy 
> > > > >media while I've been away. Unfortunately, I'm not sure if 
> > anyone 
> > > > >has answered my question. Yes,I could purchase a 2400 
> printer, 
> > > but 
> > > > >until I do, I'm stuck with this 2200 using QTR or Epson 
> > drivers. 
> > > I'm 
> > > > >just looking for the best possible solution. Will the UT7 
> inks 
> > > give 
> > > > >me reduced bronzing? Must I also use a GLOP? I'd like to 
> learn 
> > > more 
> > > > >about this since printing on glossy or semi glossy media is 
> the 
> > > > >industry standard for what I do. Finding a solution is 
> becoming 
> > > > >quite complex and I'm starting to feel like a really dumb 
> > broad, 
> > > so 
> > > > >please be patient with me.
> > > > 
> > > > I can't answer your question because I only print matte, but 
> > maybe 
> > > I
> > > > can offer some perspective as an interested observer.  From
> > > > discussions on this forum over the past 2+ years since the 
2200
> > > > appeared, it seems that glossy printing has never become 
> > perfectly
> > > > satisfactory.  All sorts of things have been tried including 
> > glop 
> > > and
> > > > various sprays, with various inks from UC to UT7 to custom 
> > > mixtures,
> > > > and various softwares from Epson to QTR/IP/IJC, etc., in every
> > > > possible combination.
> > > > 
> > > > My impression is that the latest MIS ink with the new base is 
> > about
> > > > as good as it has ever been.  But my sense from reading the 
> > posts 
> > > is
> > > > that it's still not perfectly satisfactory (and if I'm wrong 
> on 
> > > any of
> > > > this I hope other folks will jump in here and maybe you'll 
get 
> > the
> > > > info you need).  My sense is that the search continues, and 
> > people 
> > > try
> > > > one thing and aren't fully satisfied and then try something 
> > else.  
> > > It
> > > > seems endless, with regular discussions of the 
merits/demerits 
> of
> > > > various ink/paper/spray/RIP/curve/workflow combinations.
> > > > 
> > > > Out of the fog of battle emerges the 2400 (and other K3 
> > printers),
> > > > which apparently the glossy folks are very happy about.  From 
> > what 
> > > I
> > > > understand, it produces very fine glossy prints without 
> bronzing,
> > > > gloss differential and metamerism, and excellent dmax and 
> > > smoothness,
> > > > with complete tone control and without requiring a RIP 
(again, 

> > if 
> > > I'm
> > > > wrong someone jump in here).
> > > > 
> > > > If the above is true, then it seems that it comes down to 
> > whether 
> > > your
> > > > personal techno-fiddling patience threshold allows you to 
> stick 
> > > with
> > > > the 2200 and duke it out, or whether you're willing to spend 
> the 
> > > money
> > > > to get a 2400 and avoid all the hassles and save time.  Some 
> > people
> > > > don't mind tinkering and experimenting (some even love it), 
> and 
> > > others
> > > > have no patience for it and just want to do the photography.
> > > > 
> > > > What is your time worth?  Will the time you spend 
> experimenting 
> > > with
> > > > the 2200 searching for a satisfactory solution (and the 
> > ink/paper 
> > > cost
> > > > of the same) outweigh the cost buying a 2400 and the 
> time/effort 
> > of
> > > > selling the 2200?  
> > > > 
> > > > I hope this helps.
> > > > 
> > > > Regards,
> > > > Clayton
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > Info on black and white digital printing at    
> > > > http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

Thank you, Shilesh, I'll check it out, don't leave town as I'm sure 
I'll have more questions...lol.

Jo

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Shilesh Jani" 
<shileshjani@b...> wrote:
>
> Joanne,
> 
> Here it is:
> 
> http://www.inksupply.com/arcink_k4.cfm
> 
> Please note that this inkset is recommended for 2400, etc 
printers. 
> It includes LLK (which your 2200 does not have). So you will have 
to 
> sacrifice one of the color ink positions on your 2200. I would get 
> PK, C, LC, M, LM, LK, and LLK if I were you - you scarifice Y 
(which 
> will limit your ability to print sepia). The esesntial inks are 
PK, 
> LK, LLK, LM, and LC, the rest is up to you.
> 
> MIS does not appear to prefill these inks for the 2200, so you 
will 
> have to fill them yourself.
> 
> http://www.inksupply.com/epsoncarts_xx.cfm
> 
> These do NOT appear to be spongless carts, so there may be some 
> filling technique issues (vacuum fill?).
> 
> Let me know if you are interested in receiving Epson 2400 K3 
prints 
> from me, preferably of one of your images.
> 
> Shilesh
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Joanne 
Emerson" 
> <jojo_xmodel@y...> wrote:
> >
> > Shilesh, I'm a little new to this but where can I find more info 
on 
> > the MIS K4 inks? I've searched their website and cannot find any 
> > reference to these inks. Can you tell me more about them?
> > 
> > Jo
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Shilesh 
Jani" 
> > <shileshjani@b...> wrote:
> > >
> > > Joanne,
> > > 
> > > Look at the last posting by Steve Karafyllakis. He has 
> volunteered 
> > > to print with MIS K4 inks for you, and I can offer the exact 
same 
> > > photograph printed on a 2400 using Epson K3 inks. Send us an 
> email 
> > > with the image you want printed.
> > > 
> > > Shilesh
> > > 
> > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Joanne 
> > > Emerson" <jojo_xmodel@y...> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Thank you, Clayton!
> > > > 
> > > > --- In 
DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clayton 
> > > Jones" 
> > > > <cj@c...> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Hello Joanne,
> > > > > 
> > > > > >I can see there's been much discussion about printing b&w 
on 
> > > > glossy 
> > > > > >media while I've been away. Unfortunately, I'm not sure 
if 
> > > anyone 
> > > > > >has answered my question. Yes,I could purchase a 2400 
> > printer, 
> > > > but 
> > > > > >until I do, I'm stuck with this 2200 using QTR or Epson 
> > > drivers. 
> > > > I'm 
> > > > > >just looking for the best possible solution. Will the UT7 
> > inks 
> > > > give 
> > > > > >me reduced bronzing? Must I also use a GLOP? I'd like to 
> > learn 
> > > > more 
> > > > > >about this since printing on glossy or semi glossy media 
is 
> > the 
> > > > > >industry standard for what I do. Finding a solution is 
> > becoming 
> > > > > >quite complex and I'm starting to feel like a really dumb 
> > > broad, 
> > > > so 
> > > > > >please be patient with me.
> > > > > 
> > > > > I can't answer your question because I only print matte, 
but 
> > > maybe 
> > > > I
> > > > > can offer some perspective as an interested observer.  From
> > > > > discussions on this forum over the past 2+ years since the 
> 2200
> > > > > appeared, it seems that glossy printing has never become 
> > > perfectly
> > > > > satisfactory.  All sorts of things have been tried 
including 
> > > glop 
> > > > and
> > > > > various sprays, with various inks from UC to UT7 to custom 
> > > > mixtures,
> > > > > and various softwares from Epson to QTR/IP/IJC, etc., in 
every
> > > > > possible combination.
> > > > > 
> > > > > My impression is that the latest MIS ink with the new base 
is 
> > > about
> > > > > as good as it has ever been.  But my sense from reading 
the 
> > > posts 
> > > > is
> > > > > that it's still not perfectly satisfactory (and if I'm 
wrong 
> > on 
> > > > any of
> > > > > this I hope other folks will jump in here and maybe you'll 
> get 
> > > the
> > > > > info you need).  My sense is that the search continues, 
and 
> > > people 
> > > > try
> > > > > one thing and aren't fully satisfied and then try 
something 
> > > else.  
> > > > It
> > > > > seems endless, with regular discussions of the 
> merits/demerits 
> > of
> > > > > various ink/paper/spray/RIP/curve/workflow combinations.
> > > > > 
> > > > > Out of the fog of battle emerges the 2400 (and other K3 
> > > printers),
> > > > > which apparently the glossy folks are very happy about.  
From 
> > > what 
> > > > I
> > > > > understand, it produces very fine glossy prints without 
> > bronzing,
> > > > > gloss differential and metamerism, and excellent dmax and 
> > > > smoothness,
> > > > > with complete tone control and without requiring a RIP 
> (again, 
> > > if 
> > > > I'm
> > > > > wrong someone jump in here).
> > > > > 
> > > > > If the above is true, then it seems that it comes down to 
> > > whether 
> > > > your
> > > > > personal techno-fiddling patience threshold allows you to 
> > stick 
> > > > with
> > > > > the 2200 and duke it out, or whether you're willing to 
spend 
> > the 
> > > > money
> > > > > to get a 2400 and avoid all the hassles and save time.  
Some 
> > > people
> > > > > don't mind tinkering and experimenting (some even love 
it), 
> > and 
> > > > others
> > > > > have no patience for it and just want to do the 
photography.

> > > > > 
> > > > > What is your time worth?  Will the time you spend 
> > experimenting 
> > > > with
> > > > > the 2200 searching for a satisfactory solution (and the 
> > > ink/paper 
> > > > cost
> > > > > of the same) outweigh the cost buying a 2400 and the 
> > time/effort 
> > > of
> > > > > selling the 2200?  
> > > > > 
> > > > > I hope this helps.
> > > > > 
> > > > > Regards,
> > > > > Clayton
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > Info on black and white digital printing at    
> > > > > http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

>These do NOT appear to be spongless carts, so there may be some 
>filling technique issues (vacuum fill?).

There is no issue with the MIS 2200 carts with sponges.  I don't know
where this irrational obsession with spongless carts has come from. 
The MIS refillable 2200 carts are great and easy to use.  Just top
fill with a syringe through the hole and put in the plug.  Done.  No
muss, no fuss, no priming, no vacuum anything.

When you put them in the slot, let the ink carriage sit for 5 minutes
before pressing the ink button.  This allows the new ink to work its
way down into the head.  Press the ink button too soon and you'll have
air in the heads and get bad nozzle tests and have to do cleaning
cycles and waste ink.  Just wait 5 minutes or so and you'll rarely
have to do cleaning cycles.  I usually insert the new carts and then
head for the kitchen for a snack.

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Clayton:
>  I don't know
> where this irrational obsession with spongless carts has come from. 

Having suffered it myself, I'd say it is "post traumatic stress 
syndrome" brought on by having to repeatedly suck foam out of the 
1270/1280 carts in order to refill them. It even sounds gross, doesn't 
it? (G)

Steve Karafyllakis


http://www.stevekphoto.com

They're shite and I won't touch them.  I'm using spongeless carts from
Mandev in the UK and they work a treat.  If any air gets in via the poppet
valve, say when loading or unloading, it can make its way to the top of the
cart.  Basic stuff and it works well.  The sponge carts trap air around the
poppet valve.  Avoid them if you can.

> From: Clayton Jones <cj@...>

> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Printing On Gloss...Possible with Digital B&W?
> 
>> These do NOT appear to be spongless carts, so there may be some
>> filling technique issues (vacuum fill?).
> 
> There is no issue with the MIS 2200 carts with sponges.  I don't know
> where this irrational obsession with spongless carts has come from.
> The MIS refillable 2200 carts are great and easy to use.  Just top
> fill with a syringe through the hole and put in the plug.  Done.  No
> muss, no fuss, no priming, no vacuum anything.

I'm not seeing any colour shifts between varying degrees of sunlight and
halogen - other than the warmth of paper white.

> From: John Moody <moodymz3@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 07:38:37 -0500
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Re: Printing On Gloss...Possible with Digital B&W?
> 
> That sounds like the definition of illuminant metamerism.
> Would the following statement be correct?  When printed at the inksets
> native gray tone(s), the prints are metamerism free, but when profiled to
> produce neutral D50 grays, the prints exhibits illuminant metamerism.
> 
> Best regards,
> John Moody
>

Thanks for sharing the observation.
It might be interesting to place a colorchecker on both the nano print and
one from Epson ABW and take a picture of them in different light with the
1Ds-MII.

Best regards,
John Moody

-----Original Message-----
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Steve Kale
Sent: Wednesday, January 25, 2006 4:01 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Printing On Gloss...Possible with Digital B&W?

I'm not seeing any colour shifts between varying degrees of sunlight and
halogen - other than the warmth of paper white.


> From: John Moody <moodymz3@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 07:38:37 -0500
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Re: Printing On Gloss...Possible with Digital
B&W?
>
> That sounds like the definition of illuminant metamerism.
> Would the following statement be correct?  When printed at the inksets
> native gray tone(s), the prints are metamerism free, but when profiled to
> produce neutral D50 grays, the prints exhibits illuminant metamerism.
>
> Best regards,
> John Moody
>




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Steve.
One would think that there should be given that true neutrals usually
reflect the impinging illuminant ie: "red sails at sunset" and all
that stuff. 

Regards
Duane


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale
<stevekale@b...> wrote:

>
> I'm not seeing any colour shifts between varying degrees of sunlight and
> halogen - other than the warmth of paper white.
> 
>

I'm not yet a refiller, as I've been waiting for the spongeless carts.
 My reading of the posts in this and related groups is that some
people like Clayton seem to get lucky and have a good run with the
spongey carts, whereas others have problems. It's hard to know whether
this is luck or technique.  I decided not to risk it, and wait for the
spongeless carts.  

When I decided to wait, I thought it would not be long.  However MIS
have been promising spongeless carts for the 2100/2200 for ages, and
most recently promised me them early in 2006.  I'm not holding my
breath.  Ironically you can get them from MIS for the newer 2400, but
not yet for the older 2100/2200.

Steve - Do you have any problems getting Les at Mandev to reply to
your emails?  He didn't reply to mine.  He may not wish to ship abroad.

Joanne - you're not a dumb broad.  Your questions are informed,
intelligent and articulate.  I have the same sort of problem/question,
and based on what I've read so far, I'm inclined to try and get some
spongeless carts from Mandev and K4 inks from MIS and see what
happens.  If you're worred about making the whole thing too technical
and trial-and-error, rest assured that refilling the spongeless carts
seems to be a breeze **from what I've read**.

Ferdinand  (lurking and learning)


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale
<stevekale@b...> wrote:
>
> They're shite and I won't touch them.  I'm using spongeless carts from
> Mandev in the UK and they work a treat.  If any air gets in via the
poppet
> valve, say when loading or unloading, it can make its way to the top
of the
> cart.  Basic stuff and it works well.  The sponge carts trap air
around the
> poppet valve.  Avoid them if you can.
> 
> 
> > From: Clayton Jones <cj@c...>
> 
> > Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Printing On Gloss...Possible with
Digital B&W?

> > 
> >> These do NOT appear to be spongless carts, so there may be some
> >> filling technique issues (vacuum fill?).
> > 
> > There is no issue with the MIS 2200 carts with sponges.  I don't know
> > where this irrational obsession with spongless carts has come from.
> > The MIS refillable 2200 carts are great and easy to use.  Just top
> > fill with a syringe through the hole and put in the plug.  Done.  No
> > muss, no fuss, no priming, no vacuum anything.
>

Spongeless carts are available from US Sublimation
   
  john_e

ferdinand_paris <ferdinand_paris@...> wrote:
  I'm not yet a refiller, as I've been waiting for the spongeless carts.
My reading of the posts in this and related groups is that some
people like Clayton seem to get lucky and have a good run with the
spongey carts, whereas others have problems. It's hard to know whether
this is luck or technique.  I decided not to risk it, and wait for the
spongeless carts.  

When I decided to wait, I thought it would not be long.  However MIS
have been promising spongeless carts for the 2100/2200 for ages, and
most recently promised me them early in 2006.  I'm not holding my
breath.  Ironically you can get them from MIS for the newer 2400, but
not yet for the older 2100/2200.

Steve - Do you have any problems getting Les at Mandev to reply to
your emails?  He didn't reply to mine.  He may not wish to ship abroad.

Joanne - you're not a dumb broad.  Your questions are informed,
intelligent and articulate.  I have the same sort of problem/question,
and based on what I've read so far, I'm inclined to try and get some
spongeless carts from Mandev and K4 inks from MIS and see what
happens.  If you're worred about making the whole thing too technical
and trial-and-error, rest assured that refilling the spongeless carts
seems to be a breeze **from what I've read**.

Ferdinand  (lurking and learning)


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale
<stevekale@b...> wrote:
>
> They're shite and I won't touch them.  I'm using spongeless carts from
> Mandev in the UK and they work a treat.  If any air gets in via the
poppet
> valve, say when loading or unloading, it can make its way to the top
of the
> cart.  Basic stuff and it works well.  The sponge carts trap air
around the
> poppet valve.  Avoid them if you can.
> 
> 
> > From: Clayton Jones <cj@c...>
> 
> > Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Printing On Gloss...Possible with
Digital B&W?
> > 
> >> These do NOT appear to be spongless carts, so there may be some
> >> filling technique issues (vacuum fill?).
> > 
> > There is no issue with the MIS 2200 carts with sponges.  I don't know
> > where this irrational obsession with spongless carts has come from.
> > The MIS refillable 2200 carts are great and easy to use.  Just top
> > fill with a syringe through the hole and put in the plug.  Done.  No
> > muss, no fuss, no priming, no vacuum anything.
>





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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

No problems: les@...

> From: ferdinand_paris <ferdinand_paris@...>

> 
> Steve - Do you have any problems getting Les at Mandev to reply to
> your emails?  He didn't reply to mine.  He may not wish to ship abroad.

Steve Kale wrote:
> No problems: les@...
> 
> 
>> From: ferdinand_paris <ferdinand_paris@...>
> 
>> 
>> Steve - Do you have any problems getting Les at Mandev to reply to
>> your emails?  He didn't reply to mine.  He may not wish to ship abroad.
>

Be persistent. First time I emailed Les I didn't get a reply but on the 
second attempt he was very helpful and the cartridges arrived promptly 
and to my surprise included specially designed colour coded syringes. I 
haven't actually tried them yet but they look a lot better designed than 
the MIS sponge ones with proper removable plugs etc.

Howard

Thanks to both of you for the advice and encouragement.

F_P

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Howard Shaw
<glassman@b...> wrote:
>
> Steve Kale wrote:
> > No problems: les@m...
> > 
> > 
> >> From: ferdinand_paris <ferdinand_paris@y...>
> > 
> >> 
> >> Steve - Do you have any problems getting Les at Mandev to reply to
> >> your emails?  He didn't reply to mine.  He may not wish to ship
abroad.
> >
> 
> Be persistent. First time I emailed Les I didn't get a reply but on the 
> second attempt he was very helpful and the cartridges arrived promptly 
> and to my surprise included specially designed colour coded syringes. I 
> haven't actually tried them yet but they look a lot better designed
than 

> the MIS sponge ones with proper removable plugs etc.
> 
> Howard
>

For the 2200, the sponge provides capillary action that reduces the ink
pressure at the head, preventing the ink from dripping out of it.
Without the sponge, the cart design must provide some other mechanism to
reduce the pressure at the exit port.  MIS may be having trouble developing
a workable design that does not infringe on patented designs.

Best regards,
John Moody

-----Original Message-----
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of
ferdinand_paris
Sent: Wednesday, January 25, 2006 10:58 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Printing On Gloss...Possible with Digital B&W?

I'm not yet a refiller, as I've been waiting for the spongeless carts.
My reading of the posts in this and related groups is that some
people like Clayton seem to get lucky and have a good run with the
spongey carts, whereas others have problems. It's hard to know whether
this is luck or technique.  I decided not to risk it, and wait for the
spongeless carts.

When I decided to wait, I thought it would not be long.  However MIS
have been promising spongeless carts for the 2100/2200 for ages, and
most recently promised me them early in 2006.  I'm not holding my
breath.  Ironically you can get them from MIS for the newer 2400, but
not yet for the older 2100/2200.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

John,
I searched the US Sublimation website but couldn't find any reference
to spongeless carts for the 2200.

Chris Hargens



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, John
<charleysfabrics@y...> wrote:
>
> Spongeless carts are available from US Sublimation
>    
>   john_e
> 
> ferdinand_paris <ferdinand_paris@y...> wrote:
>   I'm not yet a refiller, as I've been waiting for the spongeless carts.
> My reading of the posts in this and related groups is that some
> people like Clayton seem to get lucky and have a good run with the
> spongey carts, whereas others have problems. It's hard to know whether
> this is luck or technique.  I decided not to risk it, and wait for the
> spongeless carts.  
> 
> When I decided to wait, I thought it would not be long.  However MIS
> have been promising spongeless carts for the 2100/2200 for ages, and
> most recently promised me them early in 2006.  I'm not holding my
> breath.  Ironically you can get them from MIS for the newer 2400, but
> not yet for the older 2100/2200.
> 
> Steve - Do you have any problems getting Les at Mandev to reply to
> your emails?  He didn't reply to mine.  He may not wish to ship abroad.
> 
> Joanne - you're not a dumb broad.  Your questions are informed,
> intelligent and articulate.  I have the same sort of problem/question,
> and based on what I've read so far, I'm inclined to try and get some
> spongeless carts from Mandev and K4 inks from MIS and see what
> happens.  If you're worred about making the whole thing too technical
> and trial-and-error, rest assured that refilling the spongeless carts
> seems to be a breeze **from what I've read**.
> 
> Ferdinand  (lurking and learning)
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale
> <stevekale@b...> wrote:
> >
> > They're shite and I won't touch them.  I'm using spongeless carts from
> > Mandev in the UK and they work a treat.  If any air gets in via the
> poppet
> > valve, say when loading or unloading, it can make its way to the top
> of the
> > cart.  Basic stuff and it works well.  The sponge carts trap air
> around the
> > poppet valve.  Avoid them if you can.
> > 
> > 
> > > From: Clayton Jones <cj@c...>
> > 
> > > Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Printing On Gloss...Possible with
> Digital B&W?
> > > 
> > >> These do NOT appear to be spongless carts, so there may be some
> > >> filling technique issues (vacuum fill?).
> > > 
> > > There is no issue with the MIS 2200 carts with sponges.  I don't
know
> > > where this irrational obsession with spongless carts has come from.
> > > The MIS refillable 2200 carts are great and easy to use.  Just top
> > > fill with a syringe through the hole and put in the plug.  Done.  No
> > > muss, no fuss, no priming, no vacuum anything.
> >
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other
resources as they are often being updated.
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish
to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting
this same page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
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to keep them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from
the membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital
B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be
removed from the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group
Owner and Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the
Files section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> 
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PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER"
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CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO,
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YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD
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> 
> 
> 
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> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Are you serious?  About the only reason I can think of for the sponge is an
anti-spill mechanism.  Air must enter the cartridge in order for ink to exit
but you don't want ink to spill out the top...  At any rate, 2100 spongeless
carts have been around for a while in the UK.

> From: John Moody <moodymz3@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 06:13:09 -0500
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Re: Printing On Gloss...Possible with Digital B&W?
> 
> For the 2200, the sponge provides capillary action that reduces the ink
> pressure at the head, preventing the ink from dripping out of it.
> Without the sponge, the cart design must provide some other mechanism to
> reduce the pressure at the exit port.  MIS may be having trouble developing
> a workable design that does not infringe on patented designs.
> 
> Best regards,
> John Moody

Absolutely serious.  There are drawbacks to the sponge, but that is the
function it performs.  Epson had sponge in prior 2200 carts; the improvement
over prior art is described in their patent.

Best regards,
John Moody

-----Original Message-----
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Steve Kale
Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2006 12:52 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Printing On Gloss...Possible with Digital B&W?

Are you serious?  About the only reason I can think of for the sponge is an
anti-spill mechanism.  Air must enter the cartridge in order for ink to exit
but you don't want ink to spill out the top...  At any rate, 2100 spongeless
carts have been around for a while in the UK.


> From: John Moody <moodymz3@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 06:13:09 -0500
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Re: Printing On Gloss...Possible with Digital
B&W?
>
> For the 2200, the sponge provides capillary action that reduces the ink
> pressure at the head, preventing the ink from dripping out of it.
> Without the sponge, the cart design must provide some other mechanism to
> reduce the pressure at the exit port.  MIS may be having trouble
developing
> a workable design that does not infringe on patented designs.
>
> Best regards,
> John Moody




Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
they are often being updated.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.

Please follow these basic guidelines:
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
membership without notice.
- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from
the membership.
- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and
Moderators. See Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines in the Files section:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/

BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE OWNER AND
MODERATORS OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU
FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY
DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS,
GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  OWNER AND
MODERATORS OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE
POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY
TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR
ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY
THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER
MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hmmm I don't recall any in Epson carts when I last pulled one to pieces.
I'll take another look when I get an empty.

> From: John Moody <moodymz3@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 13:14:16 -0500
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Re: Printing On Gloss...Possible with Digital B&W?
> 
> Absolutely serious.  There are drawbacks to the sponge, but that is the
> function it performs.  Epson had sponge in prior 2200 carts; the improvement
> over prior art is described in their patent.
> 
> Best regards,
> John Moody
>

That's right, as I said, they improved the carts by taking the sponge out.
They are now spongless.  Epson is very proud of the clever way they control
the ink pressure at the outlet as it empties.  Take a real good look at the
cart, it's a plumbing marvel.  Somewhere I had a picture of the internal
plumbing and valves that made it clear how it worked.  Maybe I can find it
later.

Best regards,
John Moody

-----Original Message-----
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Steve Kale
Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2006 1:51 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Printing On Gloss...Possible with Digital B&W?

Hmmm I don't recall any in Epson carts when I last pulled one to pieces.
I'll take another look when I get an empty.


> From: John Moody <moodymz3@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 13:14:16 -0500
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Re: Printing On Gloss...Possible with Digital
B&W?
>
> Absolutely serious.  There are drawbacks to the sponge, but that is the
> function it performs.  Epson had sponge in prior 2200 carts; the
improvement
> over prior art is described in their patent.
>
> Best regards,
> John Moody
>





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

OK well for what it's worth the spongeless 21/2200 carts I've been using
don't have any issues with ink leaking out into the printer.  They have two
holes in the top that come shipped with plugs in them.  The stopper for the
primary filling chamber is replaced once the cartridge is full.  The second
stopper over the hole at the top of the spill chamber where air comes in
remains out (and can act as a spare if you lose the one for the filling
chamber).  The carts are certainly considerably more sophisticated than the
MIS ones but not as complicated as Epson's.  I prime them with an MIS bottom
fill adaptor when they are brand new - it's not necessary to do this when
refilling.  I have noticed some drops of ink coming out the poppet valve on
some carts when refilling if the poppet valve is not properly sealed when
the cartridge is out of the printer.  This just requires some monitoring and
is easily corrected when noticed.  Of course the poppet valve is depressed
when they're in the printer.  I'm very happy with these cartridges and would
never want to go back to the MIS sponge ones.

> From: John Moody <moodymz3@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 14:56:19 -0500
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Re: Printing On Gloss...Possible with Digital B&W?
> 
> That's right, as I said, they improved the carts by taking the sponge out.
> They are now spongless.  Epson is very proud of the clever way they control
> the ink pressure at the outlet as it empties.  Take a real good look at the
> cart, it's a plumbing marvel.  Somewhere I had a picture of the internal
> plumbing and valves that made it clear how it worked.  Maybe I can find it
> later.
> 
> Best regards,
> John Moody

The Mandev carts sound good.
I dug up the link that explains the fancy valving.
http://www.epson.co.jp/e/technology/sankei_7.htm
In the US, WeInk has some that I have read mixed reviews on, and they are
somewhat expensive, $155US for 8 with a refill tool.  The comments have been
that they work well, but may require shims to hold them motionless relative
to the carriage.

Best regards,
John Moody

-----Original Message-----
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Steve Kale
Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2006 3:27 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Printing On Gloss...Possible with Digital B&W?

OK well for what it's worth the spongeless 21/2200 carts I've been using
don't have any issues with ink leaking out into the printer.  They have two
holes in the top that come shipped with plugs in them.  The stopper for the
primary filling chamber is replaced once the cartridge is full.  The second
stopper over the hole at the top of the spill chamber where air comes in
remains out (and can act as a spare if you lose the one for the filling
chamber).  The carts are certainly considerably more sophisticated than the
MIS ones but not as complicated as Epson's.  I prime them with an MIS bottom
fill adaptor when they are brand new - it's not necessary to do this when
refilling.  I have noticed some drops of ink coming out the poppet valve on
some carts when refilling if the poppet valve is not properly sealed when
the cartridge is out of the printer.  This just requires some monitoring and
is easily corrected when noticed.  Of course the poppet valve is depressed
when they're in the printer.  I'm very happy with these cartridges and would
never want to go back to the MIS sponge ones.


> From: John Moody <moodymz3@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 14:56:19 -0500
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Re: Printing On Gloss...Possible with Digital
B&W?
>
> That's right, as I said, they improved the carts by taking the sponge out.
> They are now spongless.  Epson is very proud of the clever way they
control
> the ink pressure at the outlet as it empties.  Take a real good look at
the
> cart, it's a plumbing marvel.  Somewhere I had a picture of the internal
> plumbing and valves that made it clear how it worked.  Maybe I can find it
> later.
>
> Best regards,
> John Moody





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Teve what spongless cartridges are you using?

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale 
<stevekale@b...> wrote:
>
> OK well for what it's worth the spongeless 21/2200 carts I've been 
using
> don't have any issues with ink leaking out into the printer.  They 
have two
> holes in the top that come shipped with plugs in them.  The 
stopper for the
> primary filling chamber is replaced once the cartridge is full.  
The second
> stopper over the hole at the top of the spill chamber where air 
comes in
> remains out (and can act as a spare if you lose the one for the 
filling
> chamber).  The carts are certainly considerably more sophisticated 
than the
> MIS ones but not as complicated as Epson's.  I prime them with an 
MIS bottom
> fill adaptor when they are brand new - it's not necessary to do 
this when
> refilling.  I have noticed some drops of ink coming out the poppet 
valve on
> some carts when refilling if the poppet valve is not properly 
sealed when
> the cartridge is out of the printer.  This just requires some 
monitoring and
> is easily corrected when noticed.  Of course the poppet valve is 
depressed
> when they're in the printer.  I'm very happy with these cartridges 
and would
> never want to go back to the MIS sponge ones.
> 
> 
> > From: John Moody <moodymz3@y...>
> > Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 14:56:19 -0500
> > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Re: Printing On Gloss...Possible with 
Digital B&W?
> > 
> > That's right, as I said, they improved the carts by taking the 
sponge out.
> > They are now spongless.  Epson is very proud of the clever way 
they control
> > the ink pressure at the outlet as it empties.  Take a real good 
look at the
> > cart, it's a plumbing marvel.  Somewhere I had a picture of the 
internal
> > plumbing and valves that made it clear how it worked.  Maybe I 
can find it

> > later.
> > 
> > Best regards,
> > John Moody
>

21/2200 carts sold in the UK by Mandev (les at mandev.co.uk)

> From: Joe <drjoe2@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 21:05:26 -0000
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: [Digital BW] Steve What spongeless cartridges are you using?
> 
> Teve what spongless cartridges are you using?
>

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "ferdinand_paris"
> I'm inclined to try and get some spongeless carts from
> Mandev and K4 inks from MIS and see what happens.

This was in relation to the 2100/2200, but it's dawned on me that
perhaps one shouldn't use the K4 inks in the 2100/2200.  There was
some suggestion to this effect in the archives, but nothing conclusive.  

Does anyone have any more up-to-date infor on this?  Is it still the
case that the MIS Pro inks are preferred for the 2100/2200 if I want
UC equivalent, and the K4 should be avoided?

F_P

> ...  Is it still the
> case that the MIS Pro inks are preferred for the 2100/2200 if I want
> UC equivalent, and the K4 should be avoided?
> 

My tests suggest the colors are the same.  The PK is different.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

In what respects -- dmax, bronzing? -- are the MIS Pro and MIS K4 PK
different? I ask because I'm considering each of these inksets for BW
printing on glossy paper.

Chris Hargens



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark"
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:

>
> 
> 
> > ...  Is it still the
> > case that the MIS Pro inks are preferred for the 2100/2200 if I want
> > UC equivalent, and the K4 should be avoided?
> > 
> 
> My tests suggest the colors are the same.  The PK is different.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>

My question was about whether there was some risk to the printer, or
perhaps whether using them in the 2100 with a different print head
than they were designed for may have an adverse effect on the print.  

After all, there must be some reason that MIS recommend Pro for the
2100/2200, and K4 for the 2400.

My reading of this group is that people are saying better things about
K4 than they are about Pro (esp bronzing and gloss differential, and
this thread is about printing on gloss after all), although this may
simply reflect the relative newness of K4.

So:

1. Is K4 safe for the 2100/2200?
2. Are there any adverse impacts on the print of using K4 in 2100/2200?
3. In a printer which can use both (if one exists) which is better?

F_P


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Chris Hargens"
<chargens@s...> wrote:

>
> In what respects -- dmax, bronzing? -- are the MIS Pro and MIS K4 PK
> different? I ask because I'm considering each of these inksets for BW
> printing on glossy paper.
> 
> Chris Hargens
> 
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark"
> <paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> >
> > 
> > 
> > > ...  Is it still the
> > > case that the MIS Pro inks are preferred for the 2100/2200 if I want
> > > UC equivalent, and the K4 should be avoided?
> > > 
> > 
> > My tests suggest the colors are the same.  The PK is different.
> > 
> > Paul
> > www.PaulRoark.com
> >
>

> In what respects -- dmax, bronzing? -- are the MIS Pro and MIS K4 PK
> different?

The K4 PK is a lower load ink than the MP PK.  I also had to lower the load
for the R220.  It's odd that something in the dither of the latest printers
requires a lower load than the old ones.  Optimizing that load is one key to
getting the best dmax -- like optimizing the ink limit.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 

> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark"
> <paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > > ...  Is it still the
> > > case that the MIS Pro inks are preferred for the 2100/2200 if I want
> > > UC equivalent, and the K4 should be avoided?
> > >
> >
> > My tests suggest the colors are the same.  The PK is different.
> >
> > Paul
> > www.PaulRoark.com
> >
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Steve,

Surely it is obvious that unless something is done to keep the ink in the 
cartridge, it will simply flow out through the printhead under the influence 
of gravity. The system is open; a hole in the top of the cart, and holes in 
the printhead, so liquid will flow out the bottom if nothing is done to stop 
it. Users of CIS systems often suffer from this. The level of liquid in the 
ink bottles has to be carefully balanced against the level of the printhead. 
Too high and the inks simply runs straight through into the waste chamber. 
Too low and the printhead can't generate enough pressure to lift the ink 
from the bottles.

So the foam in the old carts, and the valves in the new carts, reduce the 
head of ink, and thus the tendency to flow out of the printhead while idle. 
Since the holes in the printhead are very small, surface tension effects may 
help prevent leakage, but given enough head of ink (or touch the printhead 
on the ink pad at rest) and the ink will surely flow if there is a 
sufficient head of ink.

I always thought the long wiggly channels on the top of old carts through 
which the air enters the carts might also have something to do with reducing 
the inflow of air, and thus the tendency of the ink to flow out, but I'm not 
sure on this.

Bob Frost.

-----Original Message-----
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Steve Kale

OK well for what it's worth the spongeless 21/2200 carts I've been using
don't have any issues with ink leaking out into the printer.  They have two
holes in the top that come shipped with plugs in them.  The stopper for the
primary filling chamber is replaced once the cartridge is full.  The second
stopper over the hole at the top of the spill chamber where air comes in
remains out (and can act as a spare if you lose the one for the filling
chamber).  The carts are certainly considerably more sophisticated than the
MIS ones but not as complicated as Epson's.