Digital BW, The Print

It turns out there is a very good chance this will effect any of us
using alternative inks for prints far superior to OEM solutions, or
any other reason. Please take a look at Jon's post here-

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/piezography3000/message/28031

A lot of us, for years, have been using Epson's great hardware but
other inks and papers to make the best possible prints we can. It's
felt a bit like a battle all along, and now you can see why, it was.
That these inovations have been incorporated into Epsons is the
biggest indication of all how helpful many have been. I'm thinking, of
course, of the viability Generations pigments pressuring the
marketplace no doubt impacting Ultrachrome's appearance, and Jon's
great mutli K developements now showing up in various forms from all
the manufacturers.
It's worth noting these did not first appear from Epson. 
thanks,
Tyler

There has also recently been a successful lawsuit against makers of
carts cloned from HP and HP won. I'm not sure about Canon.

It seems to me, though I know little of the specifics of engineering
these things, that what is needed is a totally unique ink delivery
system for desktop units that does not infringe upon the patents held
by these corporations. From a user persective it appears that 3rd
party ink manufacturers have depended on almost exact copies of
Epson's chipped carts and hoped for the best. Even the cis units use
Epson cloned carts in them. Now they will be highly motivated to
create their own totally uniqe designs, possibly made here in the US
to avoid the import fears that foreign companies certainly will
respond to. If end users can fill their own from bulk inks it may end
up being a postive thing for us consumers. Buying little quantities of
ink in tiny carts is a rip off anyway in my opinion, regardess who
fills them.

I'll be there will be a lot more court battles to come though. As of
right now Epson has the small desktop suppliers on the run. I think we
all knew this was going to happen eventually. Of course Bush is going
to sign it, if he can read it. He might have to have Cheney read it to
him and show him where to sign though.

john

Can someone clarify whether the 3800, or any 17" printer, would be 
considered desk-top, i.e. affected by this law?

I guess this means that people should stock up on cartridges asap... 
I have a 1280 and R220.

Also, I'm assuming that the sale of ink won't be affected directly.  
In the long run (as new desk top printers are introduced to market) 
it probably would be due to falling demand because of the lack of 
refillable cartridges.

This is not great news.

Jens



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@...m, "john dean" 
<deanwork2003@...> wrote:
>
> There has also recently been a successful lawsuit against makers of
> carts cloned from HP and HP won. I'm not sure about Canon.
> 
> It seems to me, though I know little of the specifics of engineering
> these things, that what is needed is a totally unique ink delivery
> system for desktop units that does not infringe upon the patents 
held
> by these corporations. From a user persective it appears that 3rd
> party ink manufacturers have depended on almost exact copies of
> Epson's chipped carts and hoped for the best. Even the cis units use
> Epson cloned carts in them. Now they will be highly motivated to
> create their own totally uniqe designs, possibly made here in the US
> to avoid the import fears that foreign companies certainly will
> respond to. If end users can fill their own from bulk inks it may 
end
> up being a postive thing for us consumers. Buying little quantities 
of
> ink in tiny carts is a rip off anyway in my opinion, regardess who
> fills them.
> 
> I'll be there will be a lot more court battles to come though. As of
> right now Epson has the small desktop suppliers on the run. I think 
we
> all knew this was going to happen eventually. Of course Bush is 
going
> to sign it, if he can read it. He might have to have Cheney read it 
to

> him and show him where to sign though.
> 
> john
>

Jens,

The ruling only affects printers with on-carriage cartridges and these
are 13" and smaller. The 3800 uses remote ink carts, but I do not
think anyone has yet made a CIS or cartridge for that printer.

The best thing you can do besides writing the President which will be
a pro-active feeling, is buying a supply of CIS systems. They too are
subject to the ruling and you will want to act quick as supplies will
run out. But hoarding cartridges is not a good idea. Switch to bottles
as its more economical and will allow you to continue buying inks for
a long time. Even a hoard of cartridges eventually runs out.

The sale of inks is not affected nor does it affect carts for large
format printers (off-carriage). However, most large format printmakers
use refillable carts anyway to reduce costs.

I think that refilling is also the best solution for the ecology.
While the impact of b&w is small on the environment, the impact of
color is huge. But any individual effort to not throw away a cartridge
is a great effort as far as the environment is concerned. I live in
Vermont and how we manage waste is very strict here.

The biggest impact will be on new desktop users who will never have
the chance to try. Existing users will find their way or upgrade to
larger formats.

It also does not affect our European customers who can continue to buy
desktop cartridges from our European resellers. But Europe will not be
allowed to sell into the USA, because USA does not have free-trade
like the EU enjoys.

regards,

Jon Cone

PS  please write the President - you just never know....


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "JensGerbitz"
<jensgerbitz@...> wrote:

>
> Can someone clarify whether the 3800, or any 17" printer, would be 
> considered desk-top, i.e. affected by this law?
> 
> I guess this means that people should stock up on cartridges asap... 
> I have a 1280 and R220.
> 
> Also, I'm assuming that the sale of ink won't be affected directly.  
> In the long run (as new desk top printers are introduced to market) 
> it probably would be due to falling demand because of the lack of 
> refillable cartridges.
> 
> This is not great news.
> 
> Jens
> 
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "john dean" 
> <deanwork2003@> wrote:
> >
> > There has also recently been a successful lawsuit against makers of
> > carts cloned from HP and HP won. I'm not sure about Canon.
> > 
> > It seems to me, though I know little of the specifics of engineering
> > these things, that what is needed is a totally unique ink delivery
> > system for desktop units that does not infringe upon the patents 
> held
> > by these corporations. From a user persective it appears that 3rd
> > party ink manufacturers have depended on almost exact copies of
> > Epson's chipped carts and hoped for the best. Even the cis units use
> > Epson cloned carts in them. Now they will be highly motivated to
> > create their own totally uniqe designs, possibly made here in the US
> > to avoid the import fears that foreign companies certainly will
> > respond to. If end users can fill their own from bulk inks it may 
> end
> > up being a postive thing for us consumers. Buying little quantities 
> of
> > ink in tiny carts is a rip off anyway in my opinion, regardess who
> > fills them.
> > 
> > I'll be there will be a lot more court battles to come though. As of
> > right now Epson has the small desktop suppliers on the run. I think 
> we
> > all knew this was going to happen eventually. Of course Bush is 
> going
> > to sign it, if he can read it. He might have to have Cheney read it 
> to
> > him and show him where to sign though.
> > 
> > john
> >
>

Thanks for the reply Jon.

As much as I would like to write the President, I'm on the other side 
of the 49th parallel.  In any case, I wish you much luck with this, 
for the sake of printers up here too.

Jens

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Jon Cone" 
<jon@...> wrote:
>
> Jens,
> 
> The ruling only affects printers with on-carriage cartridges and 
these
> are 13" and smaller. The 3800 uses remote ink carts, but I do not
> think anyone has yet made a CIS or cartridge for that printer.
> 
> The best thing you can do besides writing the President which will 
be
> a pro-active feeling, is buying a supply of CIS systems. They too 
are
> subject to the ruling and you will want to act quick as supplies 
will
> run out. But hoarding cartridges is not a good idea. Switch to 
bottles
> as its more economical and will allow you to continue buying inks 
for
> a long time. Even a hoard of cartridges eventually runs out.
> 
> The sale of inks is not affected nor does it affect carts for large
> format printers (off-carriage). However, most large format 
printmakers
> use refillable carts anyway to reduce costs.
> 
> I think that refilling is also the best solution for the ecology.
> While the impact of b&w is small on the environment, the impact of
> color is huge. But any individual effort to not throw away a 
cartridge
> is a great effort as far as the environment is concerned. I live in
> Vermont and how we manage waste is very strict here.
> 
> The biggest impact will be on new desktop users who will never have
> the chance to try. Existing users will find their way or upgrade to
> larger formats.
> 
> It also does not affect our European customers who can continue to 
buy
> desktop cartridges from our European resellers. But Europe will not 
be
> allowed to sell into the USA, because USA does not have free-trade
> like the EU enjoys.
> 
> regards,
> 
> Jon Cone
> 
> PS  please write the President - you just never know....
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "JensGerbitz"
> <jensgerbitz@> wrote:
> >
> > Can someone clarify whether the 3800, or any 17" printer, would 
be 
> > considered desk-top, i.e. affected by this law?
> > 
> > I guess this means that people should stock up on cartridges 
asap... 
> > I have a 1280 and R220.
> > 
> > Also, I'm assuming that the sale of ink won't be affected 
directly.  
> > In the long run (as new desk top printers are introduced to 
market) 
> > it probably would be due to falling demand because of the lack of 
> > refillable cartridges.
> > 
> > This is not great news.
> > 
> > Jens
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "john dean" 
> > <deanwork2003@> wrote:
> > >
> > > There has also recently been a successful lawsuit against 
makers of
> > > carts cloned from HP and HP won. I'm not sure about Canon.
> > > 
> > > It seems to me, though I know little of the specifics of 
engineering
> > > these things, that what is needed is a totally unique ink 
delivery
> > > system for desktop units that does not infringe upon the 
patents 
> > held
> > > by these corporations. From a user persective it appears that 
3rd
> > > party ink manufacturers have depended on almost exact copies of
> > > Epson's chipped carts and hoped for the best. Even the cis 
units use
> > > Epson cloned carts in them. Now they will be highly motivated to
> > > create their own totally uniqe designs, possibly made here in 
the US
> > > to avoid the import fears that foreign companies certainly will
> > > respond to. If end users can fill their own from bulk inks it 
may 
> > end
> > > up being a postive thing for us consumers. Buying little 
quantities 
> > of
> > > ink in tiny carts is a rip off anyway in my opinion, regardess 
who
> > > fills them.
> > > 
> > > I'll be there will be a lot more court battles to come though. 
As of
> > > right now Epson has the small desktop suppliers on the run. I 
think 
> > we
> > > all knew this was going to happen eventually. Of course Bush is 
> > going
> > > to sign it, if he can read it. He might have to have Cheney 
read it 

> > to
> > > him and show him where to sign though.
> > > 
> > > john
> > >
> >
>

Write your senator and congressman. At the very least they should be
aware that the issue even exists, because I'm sure most of them don't.

(Legal thoughts - slightly OT)

 

The law in this matter states, in relevant part:

 

"Section 19 U.S.C. 1337.  Unfair practices in import trade

.

(d) Exclusion of articles from entry 

 

(1) If the Commission determines. that there is a violation of this section,
it shall direct that the articles concerned, imported by any person
violating the provision of this section, be excluded from entry into the
United States, 

 

* unless, *  [emphasis added]

 

 after considering the effect of such exclusion upon the public health and
welfare, competitive conditions in the United States economy, the production
of like or directly competitive articles in the United States, and United
States consumers, it finds that such articles should not be excluded from
entry. ."

 

 

Writing letters that alert the politicians to a large constituency that
thinks this action will harm competition might be effective.  The letters
should key into this section and the fact that competition in ink resale
market will be adversely affected by an exclusion order.

 

The letters should vary their wording so that they are not identified as a
mass mailing.

 

Letters to agencies get more attention if they are via a congressional
(House or Senate) representative.  I'm not sure if anything can get the
attention of this White House.

 

The issues are very complex.  Don't challenge the law or the patents.  Use
them to your effect.

 

The *NET* competitive effect is the issue.  "Competition," not the survival
of a competitor is the issue.  Epson's competition with HP and Canon is
included.

 

Prohibitions against "tying" agreements, in that past (IBM punch card case),
would have knocked this down, but "modern" (heavily influenced by Chicago
School economics) antitrust does not trust "per se" theories and looks at a
"bigger" ("rule of reason") picture of competition.  In theory this is
great, but in practice, the issues become so complex that the side with the
most money to hire the best lawyers (and lobbyists, etc.) often has a huge
advantage.  

 

Healthy horizontal competition among HP, Canon and Epson is probably a major
part of the big picture the policy makers are hearing about, and it's very
intense.  Did you notice Kodak is explicitly competing on ink price?

 

"Below cost" sales prohibitions might have in the past stopped the
loss-leader character of competition that has developed.  But that approach
is also discredited. 

 

We can't really expect to be able to free ride on below cost sales of Epson
printers.  

 

One pro-competitive argument that is being increasingly getting attention is
that innovation is a factor to be considered.

 

Even if Epson succeeds in keeping out most carts, I think the CIS/CFS
business will survive, and large format cartridge refilling will probably
remain viable.  Third party ink sales will continue, but maybe not as well
in some markets as today. 

 

I wonder if software can even totally circumvent the chips and carts.

 

It's not over for users and innovative businesses.

 

Paul

www.PaulRoark.com <http://www.paulroark.com/>  

 

(& Former FTC antitrust enforcer)

 

 

 

 

 

  _____  

From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tyler
Boley
Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2007 11:02 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Epson's court victory

 

It turns out there is a very good chance this will effect any of us
using alternative inks for prints far superior to OEM solutions, or
any other reason. Please take a look at Jon's post here-

http://tech.
<http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/piezography3000/message/28031>
groups.yahoo.com/group/piezography3000/message/28031

A lot of us, for years, have been using Epson's great hardware but
other inks and papers to make the best possible prints we can. It's
felt a bit like a battle all along, and now you can see why, it was.
That these inovations have been incorporated into Epsons is the
biggest indication of all how helpful many have been. I'm thinking, of
course, of the viability Generations pigments pressuring the
marketplace no doubt impacting Ultrachrome's appearance, and Jon's
great mutli K developements now showing up in various forms from all
the manufacturers.
It's worth noting these did not first appear from Epson. 
thanks,
Tyler

 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Paul, 
    Well said, a very astute set of observations and I can tell you that the "relevent" EU commision is looking very closely at this situation as it is progressing overthere, and is in basic agreement with you.............

(* unless, * [emphasis added]

after considering the effect of such exclusion upon the public health and
welfare, competitive conditions in the United States economy, the production
of like or directly competitive articles in the United States, and United
States consumers, it finds that such articles should not be excluded from
entry. .")

 that your statment may well generate a "backlash" against Epson in the relevent EU commision and in the Commisioners at large.

Good Luck and keep up the good work.

John_E

----- Original Message ----
From: Paul Roark <paul.roark@...>
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, 2 November, 2007 6:05:19 AM
Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Epson's court victory

(Legal thoughts - slightly OT)

The law in this matter states, in relevant part:

"Section 19 U.S.C. 1337. Unfair practices in import trade

.

(d) Exclusion of articles from entry 

(1) If the Commission determines. that there is a violation of this section,
it shall direct that the articles concerned, imported by any person
violating the provision of this section, be excluded from entry into the
United States, 

* unless, * [emphasis added]

after considering the effect of such exclusion upon the public health and
welfare, competitive conditions in the United States economy, the production
of like or directly competitive articles in the United States, and United
States consumers, it finds that such articles should not be excluded from
entry. ."

Writing letters that alert the politicians to a large constituency that
thinks this action will harm competition might be effective. The letters
should key into this section and the fact that competition in ink resale
market will be adversely affected by an exclusion order.

The letters should vary their wording so that they are not identified as a
mass mailing.

Letters to agencies get more attention if they are via a congressional
(House or Senate) representative. I'm not sure if anything can get the
attention of this White House.

The issues are very complex. Don't challenge the law or the patents. Use
them to your effect.

The *NET* competitive effect is the issue. "Competition, " not the survival
of a competitor is the issue. Epson's competition with HP and Canon is
included.

Prohibitions against "tying" agreements, in that past (IBM punch card case),
would have knocked this down, but "modern" (heavily influenced by Chicago
School economics) antitrust does not trust "per se" theories and looks at a
"bigger" ("rule of reason") picture of competition. In theory this is
great, but in practice, the issues become so complex that the side with the
most money to hire the best lawyers (and lobbyists, etc.) often has a huge
advantage. 

Healthy horizontal competition among HP, Canon and Epson is probably a major
part of the big picture the policy makers are hearing about, and it's very
intense. Did you notice Kodak is explicitly competing on ink price?

"Below cost" sales prohibitions might have in the past stopped the
loss-leader character of competition that has developed. But that approach
is also discredited. 

We can't really expect to be able to free ride on below cost sales of Epson
printers. 

One pro-competitive argument that is being increasingly getting attention is
that innovation is a factor to be considered.

Even if Epson succeeds in keeping out most carts, I think the CIS/CFS
business will survive, and large format cartridge refilling will probably
remain viable. Third party ink sales will continue, but maybe not as well
in some markets as today. 

I wonder if software can even totally circumvent the chips and carts.

It's not over for users and innovative businesses.

Paul

www.PaulRoark. com <http://www.paulroar k.com/> 

(& Former FTC antitrust enforcer)

_____ 

From: DigitalBlackandWhit eThePrint@ yahoogroups. com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhit eThePrint@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Tyler
Boley
Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2007 11:02 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhit eThePrint@ yahoogroups. com
Subject: [Digital BW] Epson's court victory

It turns out there is a very good chance this will effect any of us
using alternative inks for prints far superior to OEM solutions, or
any other reason. Please take a look at Jon's post here-

http://tech.
<http://tech. groups.yahoo. com/group/ piezography3000/ message/28031>
groups.yahoo. com/group/ piezography3000/ message/28031

A lot of us, for years, have been using Epson's great hardware but
other inks and papers to make the best possible prints we can. It's
felt a bit like a battle all along, and now you can see why, it was.
That these inovations have been incorporated into Epsons is the
biggest indication of all how helpful many have been. I'm thinking, of
course, of the viability Generations pigments pressuring the
marketplace no doubt impacting Ultrachrome' s appearance, and Jon's
great mutli K developements now showing up in various forms from all
the manufacturers.
It's worth noting these did not first appear from Epson. 
thanks,
Tyler

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

John,

How about in the future keeping your political jabs to yourself?  Some
on this list find this kind of cheap shot juvenile.  This list is for
the discussion of B&W printing - let's keep it there.

Richard Cooke
Lake Forest, CA USA

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "john dean"
<deanwork2003@...> wrote:
>
> Of course Bush is going to sign it, if he can read it. He might have
to > have Cheney read it to him and show him where to sign though.

> 
> john
>

Richard,

 

Well said!!!!

 

Tom

 

  _____  

From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Richard
Cooke
Sent: Friday, November 02, 2007 10:44 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Epson's court victory

 

John,

How about in the future keeping your political jabs to yourself? Some
on this list find this kind of cheap shot juvenile. This list is for
the discussion of B&W printing - let's keep it there.

Richard Cooke
Lake Forest, CA USA

--- In DigitalBlackandWhit
<mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint%40yahoogroups.com>
eThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "john dean"
<deanwork2003@...> wrote:
>
> Of course Bush is going to sign it, if he can read it. He might have
to > have Cheney read it to him and show him where to sign though.
> 
> john
>

 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I'll tell you what will be a political, professional, and personal jab
is if he signs it. Don't think they are going to stop with little
carts, they will use it as a precident and move on to the rest. And,
by the way, politics directly effect black and white printing, everyday.

>
> John,
> 
> How about in the future keeping your political jabs to yourself?  Some
> on this list find this kind of cheap shot juvenile.  This list is for
> the discussion of B&W printing - let's keep it there.
> 
> Richard Cooke
> Lake Forest, CA USA

By the way, Epson has filed a second lawsuit going after the large format
cartridges.

And has anyone figured out how to refill 3800 carts yet?

They really are intent on wiping out the third party ink industry.

I wonder if a secondary competitor like Kodak might exploit the big-three's
efforts by making a machine that readily accepts competitive inks.

Note http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20298724/ :

"Analysts have been concerned about a potential slowdown in HP's ...
high-margin inkjet cartridges that have been long been the company's cash
cow. They have worried that Eastman Kodak Co.'s foray this year into the
inkjet-printer market with lower-priced products could harm HP's
profitability."

"But HP delivered a strong showing in the third quarter. Operating profit
for the division rose 11 percent from $884 million to $981 million. The unit
provided HP with nearly 40 percent of the company's total operating profit."


I think the extent of profitability of the ink sales helps support the
argument that the old prohibitions on tying were based on solid facts.
Regardless of the Chicago school theory, most people do not carefully
analyze total product costs when purchasing.  The low down payment suckers
lots of people. (Has anyone noticed the housing market?)

Mention of HP's inkjet profitability in letters might help persuade some
that "perfect competition" is not happening here.


On the other side of the coin, Kodak's behavior is more consistent with what
economists would predict.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

I'm sorry to admit that I came into this thread late but here's my
particular situation: I have an Epson 1280 using a CIS from MIS Associates.
Assuming that the CIS continues to work properly, will my ability to
purchase inks be affected by this lawsuit?

 

Thanks,

Tom

 

  _____  

From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Paul
Roark
Sent: Friday, November 02, 2007 11:24 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Epson's court victory

 

By the way, Epson has filed a second lawsuit going after the large format
cartridges.

And has anyone figured out how to refill 3800 carts yet?

They really are intent on wiping out the third party ink industry.

I wonder if a secondary competitor like Kodak might exploit the big-three's
efforts by making a machine that readily accepts competitive inks.

Note http://www.msnbc. <http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20298724/>
msn.com/id/20298724/ :

"Analysts have been concerned about a potential slowdown in HP's ...
high-margin inkjet cartridges that have been long been the company's cash
cow. They have worried that Eastman Kodak Co.'s foray this year into the
inkjet-printer market with lower-priced products could harm HP's
profitability."

"But HP delivered a strong showing in the third quarter. Operating profit
for the division rose 11 percent from $884 million to $981 million. The unit
provided HP with nearly 40 percent of the company's total operating profit."

I think the extent of profitability of the ink sales helps support the
argument that the old prohibitions on tying were based on solid facts.
Regardless of the Chicago school theory, most people do not carefully
analyze total product costs when purchasing. The low down payment suckers
lots of people. (Has anyone noticed the housing market?)

Mention of HP's inkjet profitability in letters might help persuade some
that "perfect competition" is not happening here.

On the other side of the coin, Kodak's behavior is more consistent with what
economists would predict.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 

 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Everything effects everything else everyday, at least a little. But  
while it will sometimes be a "judgment call", I think that in making  
it, we should try to keep our politics off the list. And I hope the  
list's moderators will require that (as part of a more general stay- 
on-topic policy).

I don't say this because I think John's politics are different from  
mine, nor because I think politics should be avoided in general. On  
the contrary, I'm very active. But because I am, I'm all the more  
eager to keep politics within bounds and to have parts of my life  
into which politics doesn't intrude. So far, photography in general  
and this list in particular are among those parts, and I hope it  
stays that way.
--
Sam

On Nov 2, 2007, at 7:52 AM, john dean wrote:

> I'll tell you what will be a political, professional, and personal jab
> is if he signs it. Don't think they are going to stop with little
> carts, they will use it as a precident and move on to the rest. And,
> by the way, politics directly effect black and white printing,  
> everyday.
>
>
>> John,
>>
>> How about in the future keeping your political jabs to yourself?   
>> Some
>> on this list find this kind of cheap shot juvenile.  This list is for
>> the discussion of B&W printing - let's keep it there.
>>
>> Richard Cooke
>> Lake Forest, CA USA

I am interested in Photography, Lets keep it that way.

I'll just say this.. You can vote every 4 years in this country, if you don't like that MOVE!!!

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Sam McCandless 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Friday, November 02, 2007 11:33 AM
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Epson's court victory


  Everything effects everything else everyday, at least a little. But 
  while it will sometimes be a "judgment call", I think that in making 
  it, we should try to keep our politics off the list. And I hope the 
  list's moderators will require that (as part of a more general stay- 
  on-topic policy).

  I don't say this because I think John's politics are different from 
  mine, nor because I think politics should be avoided in general. On 
  the contrary, I'm very active. But because I am, I'm all the more 
  eager to keep politics within bounds and to have parts of my life 
  into which politics doesn't intrude. So far, photography in general 
  and this list in particular are among those parts, and I hope it 
  stays that way.
  --
  Sam

  On Nov 2, 2007, at 7:52 AM, john dean wrote:

  > I'll tell you what will be a political, professional, and personal jab
  > is if he signs it. Don't think they are going to stop with little
  > carts, they will use it as a precident and move on to the rest. And,
  > by the way, politics directly effect black and white printing, 
  > everyday.
  >
  >
  >> John,
  >>
  >> How about in the future keeping your political jabs to yourself? 
  >> Some
  >> on this list find this kind of cheap shot juvenile. This list is for
  >> the discussion of B&W printing - let's keep it there.
  >>
  >> Richard Cooke
  >> Lake Forest, CA USA


   


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>...
> Assuming that the CIS continues to work properly, will
> my ability to purchase inks be affected by this lawsuit?

I don't believe Epson will be able to stop third party bulk ink sales. 

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

The answer to that is yes. CFS units that exist now that use chipped
carts which are seen to infringe on Epson's patents will no longer be
allowed to be imported into this country from what I can gather from
these discussions.

To me it looks like a done deal. I don't think it would have gotten as
far as the presidents desk without them having some idea as to the
final outcome. This has been a long time coming and big money has been
thrown into the case over a long period of time.

What we can hope for are cfs systems that accomidate all ink types and
printer sizes that are considered legal from an engineering
standpoint. That may not be easy to do for smaller printers.

John




--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Maugham"
<Thomas@...> wrote:
>
> I'm sorry to admit that I came into this thread late but here's my
> particular situation: I have an Epson 1280 using a CIS from MIS
Associates.
> Assuming that the CIS continues to work properly, will my ability to
> purchase inks be affected by this lawsuit?
> 
>  
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Tom
> 
>  
> 
>   _____  
> 
> From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Paul
> Roark
> Sent: Friday, November 02, 2007 11:24 AM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Epson's court victory
> 
>  
> 
> By the way, Epson has filed a second lawsuit going after the large
format
> cartridges.
> 
> And has anyone figured out how to refill 3800 carts yet?
> 
> They really are intent on wiping out the third party ink industry.
> 
> I wonder if a secondary competitor like Kodak might exploit the
big-three's
> efforts by making a machine that readily accepts competitive inks.
> 
> Note http://www.msnbc. <http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20298724/>
> msn.com/id/20298724/ :
> 
> "Analysts have been concerned about a potential slowdown in HP's ...
> high-margin inkjet cartridges that have been long been the company's
cash
> cow. They have worried that Eastman Kodak Co.'s foray this year into the
> inkjet-printer market with lower-priced products could harm HP's
> profitability."
> 
> "But HP delivered a strong showing in the third quarter. Operating
profit
> for the division rose 11 percent from $884 million to $981 million.
The unit
> provided HP with nearly 40 percent of the company's total operating
profit."
> 
> I think the extent of profitability of the ink sales helps support the
> argument that the old prohibitions on tying were based on solid facts.
> Regardless of the Chicago school theory, most people do not carefully
> analyze total product costs when purchasing. The low down payment
suckers
> lots of people. (Has anyone noticed the housing market?)
> 
> Mention of HP's inkjet profitability in letters might help persuade some
> that "perfect competition" is not happening here.
> 
> On the other side of the coin, Kodak's behavior is more consistent
with what

> economists would predict.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com 
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

My intention with the initial post was to get the information out
there, this is huge for some of us, and I hoped that would result in
others interested in keeping this form of printing alive might do the
letter writing or whatever they can. I have no idea where or not it
will help, it certainly can't hurt. Thanks to Paul and other we now
have more information on how best to be affective.
I have long ranted there should be a secondary line of printers for us
that are unchipped and priced so their viability does not depend on
ink sales. Of course that won't happen at the desktop level.

But more directly, here's how it "may" impact bulk ink availability.
It's safe to assume that a huge part of income for these small
companies is sales of carts. One can imagine that those sales are a
larger amount than their total margin. 
A sudden end to cart sales may mean a sudden start to debt
accumulation for them.
Therefore, without a way to quickly adapt, downsize, or find another
high volume product to quickly take it's place, the companies
themselves may bag it entirely, and therefore no more ink...

All the peripheral discussion about politics etc, while no doubt
sincere, should not deflect us from sitting down and writing the
letters. That's the deal.
Then... come what may... we did something rather than nothing.
Tyler
 

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark"
<paul.roark@...> wrote:

>
> >...
> > Assuming that the CIS continues to work properly, will
> > my ability to purchase inks be affected by this lawsuit?
> 
> I don't believe Epson will be able to stop third party bulk ink sales. 
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>

Sorry, I misread your question.

No one can stop sales of inks that don't exactly copy the formulas of
oem product, but they can stop particular means of delivery, and
therefore the expansion and viability of the market for those
companies that do produce the inksets.

The serious factor is what Tyler just described, without the cartridge
sales to the ubiquitous small printer market, and the revenue that it
generates to pay salaries and do innovative R&D, will these companies
survive as we know them now to supply any of us with anything other
than oem product.

john





> > Assuming that the CIS continues to work properly, will my ability to
> > purchase inks be affected by this lawsuit?
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > Thanks,
> > 
> > Tom
> > 
> >  
> > 
> >   _____  
> > 
> > From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> > [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
Paul
> > Roark
> > Sent: Friday, November 02, 2007 11:24 AM
> > To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Epson's court victory
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > By the way, Epson has filed a second lawsuit going after the large
> format
> > cartridges.
> > 
> > And has anyone figured out how to refill 3800 carts yet?
> > 
> > They really are intent on wiping out the third party ink industry.
> > 
> > I wonder if a secondary competitor like Kodak might exploit the
> big-three's
> > efforts by making a machine that readily accepts competitive inks.
> > 
> > Note http://www.msnbc. <http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20298724/>
> > msn.com/id/20298724/ :
> > 
> > "Analysts have been concerned about a potential slowdown in HP's ...
> > high-margin inkjet cartridges that have been long been the company's
> cash
> > cow. They have worried that Eastman Kodak Co.'s foray this year
into the
> > inkjet-printer market with lower-priced products could harm HP's
> > profitability."
> > 
> > "But HP delivered a strong showing in the third quarter. Operating
> profit
> > for the division rose 11 percent from $884 million to $981 million.
> The unit
> > provided HP with nearly 40 percent of the company's total operating
> profit."
> > 
> > I think the extent of profitability of the ink sales helps support the
> > argument that the old prohibitions on tying were based on solid facts.
> > Regardless of the Chicago school theory, most people do not carefully
> > analyze total product costs when purchasing. The low down payment
> suckers
> > lots of people. (Has anyone noticed the housing market?)
> > 
> > Mention of HP's inkjet profitability in letters might help
persuade some

> > that "perfect competition" is not happening here.
> > 
> > On the other side of the coin, Kodak's behavior is more consistent
> with what
> > economists would predict.
> > 
> > Paul
> > www.PaulRoark.com 
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>

Would not the sudden unavailabilty of carts, lead to more people buying in  bulk, chip setters and CIS systems so the revenue lost from cart sales will be made up sales of the mentioned items. I imagine someone from the 3rd party ink sales industry will have to weigh in on this. 
   
  Also, have not other manufacturers,  of software, music, clothing and watches sued to have the importation of pirated copyrighted and patented items banned. If this action is to protect epson's patented delivery systems it is their right to protect their investments .We do not like people using our copyrighted materials without permisson nor do any artists. But, I have great faith in  American and Chinese ingenuity. Someone will come up with a way and alter the basic structure of the cart so it falls outside of the law's jurisdiction. Personally, I mailed out the letter and email today to the president, and my congressment as well as the two senators in NJ. This was done snail mail and email. 
  Frank in NJ

Tyler Boley <tyler@...> wrote:
          My intention with the initial post was to get the information out
there, this is huge for some of us, and I hoped that would result in
others interested in keeping this form of printing alive might do the
letter writing or whatever they can. I have no idea where or not it
will help, it certainly can't hurt. Thanks to Paul and other we now
have more information on how best to be affective.
I have long ranted there should be a secondary line of printers for us
that are unchipped and priced so their viability does not depend on
ink sales. Of course that won't happen at the desktop level.

But more directly, here's how it "may" impact bulk ink availability.
It's safe to assume that a huge part of income for these small
companies is sales of carts. One can imagine that those sales are a
larger amount than their total margin. 
A sudden end to cart sales may mean a sudden start to debt
accumulation for them.
Therefore, without a way to quickly adapt, downsize, or find another
high volume product to quickly take it's place, the companies
themselves may bag it entirely, and therefore no more ink...

All the peripheral discussion about politics etc, while no doubt
sincere, should not deflect us from sitting down and writing the
letters. That's the deal.
Then... come what may... we did something rather than nothing.
Tyler


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark"
<paul.roark@...> wrote:
>
> >...
> > Assuming that the CIS continues to work properly, will
> > my ability to purchase inks be affected by this lawsuit?
> 
> I don't believe Epson will be able to stop third party bulk ink sales. 
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>



                         


"The luckiest dogs are those with clipped tails....they're the ones who won't be chasing their own arses."
 __________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Then a clear winner will be the first company that markets a chip free
printer. One that accepts whatever inks one wants to load and perhaps
bundled with a profiling kit, say a ???,  See what kind of traction it gains
while Epson, and perhaps HP and Canon tag along, before the realize they
will be fighting a losing battle. If they want to act like we'll all go
along because we need to, the review mirror will get full awfully fast for
Epson et la. 

 

Eric

 

Eric Neilsen Photo

4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9

Dallas, TX 75226

214 827-8301

 

http://ericneilsenphotography.com

SKype ejprinter

 

  _____  

From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Frank Jay
Sent: Friday, November 02, 2007 1:07 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Epson's court victory

 

Would not the sudden unavailabilty of carts, lead to more people buying in
bulk, chip setters and CIS systems so the revenue lost from cart sales will
be made up sales of the mentioned items. I imagine someone from the 3rd
party ink sales industry will have to weigh in on this. 

Also, have not other manufacturers, of software, music, clothing and watches
sued to have the importation of pirated copyrighted and patented items
banned. If this action is to protect epson's patented delivery systems it is
their right to protect their investments .We do not like people using our
copyrighted materials without permisson nor do any artists. But, I have
great faith in American and Chinese ingenuity. Someone will come up with a
way and alter the basic structure of the cart so it falls outside of the
law's jurisdiction. Personally, I mailed out the letter and email today to
the president, and my congressment as well as the two senators in NJ. This
was done snail mail and email. 
Frank in NJ

Tyler Boley <tyler@tylerboley. <mailto:tyler%40tylerboley.com> com> wrote:
My intention with the initial post was to get the information out
there, this is huge for some of us, and I hoped that would result in
others interested in keeping this form of printing alive might do the
letter writing or whatever they can. I have no idea where or not it
will help, it certainly can't hurt. Thanks to Paul and other we now
have more information on how best to be affective.
I have long ranted there should be a secondary line of printers for us
that are unchipped and priced so their viability does not depend on
ink sales. Of course that won't happen at the desktop level.

But more directly, here's how it "may" impact bulk ink availability.
It's safe to assume that a huge part of income for these small
companies is sales of carts. One can imagine that those sales are a
larger amount than their total margin. 
A sudden end to cart sales may mean a sudden start to debt
accumulation for them.
Therefore, without a way to quickly adapt, downsize, or find another
high volume product to quickly take it's place, the companies
themselves may bag it entirely, and therefore no more ink...

All the peripheral discussion about politics etc, while no doubt
sincere, should not deflect us from sitting down and writing the
letters. That's the deal.
Then... come what may... we did something rather than nothing.
Tyler

--- In DigitalBlackandWhit
<mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint%40yahoogroups.com>
eThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark"
<paul.roark@...> wrote:
>
> >...
> > Assuming that the CIS continues to work properly, will
> > my ability to purchase inks be affected by this lawsuit?
> 
> I don't believe Epson will be able to stop third party bulk ink sales. 
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>

"The luckiest dogs are those with clipped tails....they're the ones who
won't be chasing their own arses."
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail. <http://mail.yahoo.com> yahoo.com 

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

CIS systems are not exempt which use a container with or without a
chip attached but that can be read if it is used (the chip is not the
issue, simply its location), or empty into the printer through the
printer's needle via a port, or are held in place with a device
clipped against the carriage.

Sounds like every CIS being sold right now.   :(



Jon



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Frank Jay
<frankjay02@...> wrote:
>
> Would not the sudden unavailabilty of carts, lead to more people
buying in  bulk, chip setters and CIS systems so the revenue lost from
cart sales will be made up sales of the mentioned items. I imagine
someone from the 3rd party ink sales industry will have to weigh in on
this.

People using third party inks and carts in Epson large format  
printers has got to be such a small percentage considering the (10) 
thousands of printers they have out there, I am amazed that Epson  
even cares. Anyone know exact numbers? Of course we think the number  
is high because we are "bucking" the system.

Perhaps a poll of this group would have surprising results.
Mark

On Nov 2, 2007, at 3:13 PM, E Neilsen wrote:

> Then a clear winner will be the first company that markets a chip free
> printer. One that accepts whatever inks one wants to load and perhaps
> bundled with a profiling kit, say a ???,  See what kind of traction  
> it gains
> while Epson, and perhaps HP and Canon tag along, before the realize  
> they
> will be fighting a losing battle. If they want to act like we'll  
> all go
> along because we need to, the review mirror will get full awfully  
> fast for
> Epson et la.
>
>
>
> Eric
>
>
>
> Eric Neilsen Photo
>
> 4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9
>
> Dallas, TX 75226
>
> 214 827-8301
>
>
>
> http://ericneilsenphotography.com
>
> SKype ejprinter
>
>
>
>   _____
>
> From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of  
> Frank Jay
> Sent: Friday, November 02, 2007 1:07 PM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Epson's court victory
>
>
>
> Would not the sudden unavailabilty of carts, lead to more people  
> buying in
> bulk, chip setters and CIS systems so the revenue lost from cart  
> sales will
> be made up sales of the mentioned items. I imagine someone from the  
> 3rd
> party ink sales industry will have to weigh in on this.
>
> Also, have not other manufacturers, of software, music, clothing  
> and watches
> sued to have the importation of pirated copyrighted and patented items
> banned. If this action is to protect epson's patented delivery  
> systems it is
> their right to protect their investments .We do not like people  
> using our
> copyrighted materials without permisson nor do any artists. But, I  
> have
> great faith in American and Chinese ingenuity. Someone will come up  
> with a
> way and alter the basic structure of the cart so it falls outside  
> of the
> law's jurisdiction. Personally, I mailed out the letter and email  
> today to
> the president, and my congressment as well as the two senators in  
> NJ. This
> was done snail mail and email.
> Frank in NJ
>
> Tyler Boley <tyler@tylerboley. <mailto:tyler%40tylerboley.com> com>  
> wrote:
> My intention with the initial post was to get the information out
> there, this is huge for some of us, and I hoped that would result in
> others interested in keeping this form of printing alive might do the
> letter writing or whatever they can. I have no idea where or not it
> will help, it certainly can't hurt. Thanks to Paul and other we now
> have more information on how best to be affective.
> I have long ranted there should be a secondary line of printers for us
> that are unchipped and priced so their viability does not depend on
> ink sales. Of course that won't happen at the desktop level.
>
> But more directly, here's how it "may" impact bulk ink availability.
> It's safe to assume that a huge part of income for these small
> companies is sales of carts. One can imagine that those sales are a
> larger amount than their total margin.
> A sudden end to cart sales may mean a sudden start to debt
> accumulation for them.
> Therefore, without a way to quickly adapt, downsize, or find another
> high volume product to quickly take it's place, the companies
> themselves may bag it entirely, and therefore no more ink...
>
> All the peripheral discussion about politics etc, while no doubt
> sincere, should not deflect us from sitting down and writing the
> letters. That's the deal.
> Then... come what may... we did something rather than nothing.
> Tyler
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhit
> <mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint%40yahoogroups.com>
> eThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark"
> <paul.roark@...> wrote:
>>
>>> ...
>>> Assuming that the CIS continues to work properly, will
>>> my ability to purchase inks be affected by this lawsuit?
>>
>> I don't believe Epson will be able to stop third party bulk ink  
>> sales.
>>
>> Paul
>> www.PaulRoark.com
>>
>
> "The luckiest dogs are those with clipped tails....they're the ones  
> who
> won't be chasing their own arses."
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail. <http://mail.yahoo.com> yahoo.com
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other  
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So that includes refillable bottle carts too, of all sorts, like MIS
is selling now for the big ones?


Man, that sounds like a tough nut to crack unles someone can find a
way to make the inks float through the air an into the heads through 
levitation. That is down right anti competitive free-enterprise market
and unamerican.

john



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Jon Cone"
<jon@...> wrote:

>
> CIS systems are not exempt which use a container with or without a
> chip attached but that can be read if it is used (the chip is not the
> issue, simply its location), or empty into the printer through the
> printer's needle via a port, or are held in place with a device
> clipped against the carriage.
> 
> Sounds like every CIS being sold right now.   :(
> 
> 
> 
> Jon
> 
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Frank Jay
> <frankjay02@> wrote:
> >
> > Would not the sudden unavailabilty of carts, lead to more people
> buying in  bulk, chip setters and CIS systems so the revenue lost from
> cart sales will be made up sales of the mentioned items. I imagine
> someone from the 3rd party ink sales industry will have to weigh in on
> this.
>

Sounds like there needs to be some serious effort made on refilling the Epson carts.  Don't know what that might be, but it certainly would be useful to have an effecient, effective way to do it.
   
  Tom Baker

john dean <deanwork2003@...> wrote:
          So that includes refillable bottle carts too, of all sorts, like MIS
is selling now for the big ones?

Man, that sounds like a tough nut to crack unles someone can find a
way to make the inks float through the air an into the heads through 
levitation. That is down right anti competitive free-enterprise market
and unamerican.

john

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Jon Cone"
<jon@...> wrote:
>
> CIS systems are not exempt which use a container with or without a
> chip attached but that can be read if it is used (the chip is not the
> issue, simply its location), or empty into the printer through the
> printer's needle via a port, or are held in place with a device
> clipped against the carriage.
> 
> Sounds like every CIS being sold right now. :(
> 
> 
> 
> Jon
> 
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Frank Jay
> <frankjay02@> wrote:
> >
> > Would not the sudden unavailabilty of carts, lead to more people
> buying in bulk, chip setters and CIS systems so the revenue lost from
> cart sales will be made up sales of the mentioned items. I imagine
> someone from the 3rd party ink sales industry will have to weigh in on
> this.
>



                         


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

john dean wrote:
> 
> 
> So that includes refillable bottle carts too, of all sorts, like MIS
> is selling now for the big ones?
> 
> Man, that sounds like a tough nut to crack unles someone can find a
> way to make the inks float through the air an into the heads through
> levitation. That is down right anti competitive free-enterprise market
> and unamerican.

It's what patent law is all about; you craft an invention
and spend the time and money to patent it, you get protection
in return.  Further, if a patent holder doesn't vigorously
defend their patent claim, this can be used to invalidate
the patent.  That's likely why Epson goes to the expense to
litigate on infringement that is likely inconsequential to
their business - if they don't do this, then HP or some
Chinese knock-off could infringe and then win in court,
which would have a huge impact on Epson's business.

Dana

Yea and I'll bet their attorneys just got a big raise this week.
-------
Actually I do clean out and refill my Epson 10K carts with Jon's ink
on occasion and in the future I'm sure it will be a full time event
just so I can get used to doing it regularly. I can do one in about 10
minutes now and it can be refilled over and over and over.

With the 10K you can remove the cap, punch a whole in the backflow
bladder and fill with a syringe till your hearts content. Then reset
the chip. They work perfectly and never leak, and these are big 500ml
pressurized carts.

I've never tried to do this with the newer 9600-9800 220ml carts and I
wonder if they make them difficult to retrofit. They would NEVER want
people to catch on to the concept of buying ink in bulk, regardless of
the brand and filling ourselves.. But, come to think of it is seems
that if Epson got ink in those carts we could too?? some way...we've
got good hackers out there. 

john

> 
> It's what patent law is all about; you craft an invention
> and spend the time and money to patent it, you get protection
> in return.  Further, if a patent holder doesn't vigorously
> defend their patent claim, this can be used to invalidate
> the patent.  That's likely why Epson goes to the expense to
> litigate on infringement that is likely inconsequential to
> their business - if they don't do this, then HP or some
> Chinese knock-off could infringe and then win in court,
> which would have a huge impact on Epson's business.
> 
> Dana
>

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@...> wrote:
>
> 
> And has anyone figured out how to refill 3800 carts yet?
> 
Paul, the biggest hindrance is resetting the chips-do you have any idea 
if the auto-reset chips are universal, or printer- specific? If we can 
get past that, then the simplest way would be drilling a hole in the 
top, and corking it-IOW make your own funnel-fill carts out of Epsons.

Steven Karafyllakis

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark"
<paul.roark@...> wrote:
>
> 
> We can't really expect to be able to free ride on below cost sales
of Epson
> printers.  
> 
>  
Hello Paul,

This has been the general consensus amongst Epson desktop users, that
Epson is selling printers at below cost so it can make money on
consumables. And I believe it for a long time. 

But I'm starting to question this. What proof do we really have to
back up to this up? And where does this come from? Did Epson ever made
a statement about it and shown audited figures? 

I'll concede that the $29.99 printer may be a loss leader, but I'm not
 convinced about printers like the R260s which I recently bought. 

A Samsung DVD drive cost $33.00, HD-DVD is now $99.00 (regular price)
 at Best Buys today, Philips CRT's at $100, Nvidia PCI-E graphics card
with 256mb memory for $50. etc, etc. 

I'm willing to be shown some real hard figures, but till then, but I'm
 not so sure about the "loss leader" concept of Epson printers anymore.

Well, that's my $.02 cents.

Cheers,
Andre

Jon, 
  when I go target shooting and use wadcutters, I get a discount on my pack of 50 when I return a pack of 50 spent shells. the shells can be used I believe 4-5 times depending on how the metal holds up. The reloader saves money, and I Make money...we are both happy. 
      If you, as a person in the ink business, were to give a dollar amount credit if someone returns a used cart for a refilled cart, or some process of that nature, how would that affect you as inkmaker and us as end users. . Does'nt this law prohibit  only new imports?
   
  I do not know how many times a chip can be reset or a cart re-loaded but could not some workaround be figured out using those carts already in use in the US or is there a whole other more complicated legal issue at play here.
  just my two cents
  Frank in NJ
   


"The luckiest dogs are those with clipped tails....they're the ones who won't be chasing their own arses."
 __________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>> We can't really expect to be able to free ride on below cost 
>>sales of Epson printers. 
> 

>This has been the general consensus amongst Epson desktop users, 
>that Epson is selling printers at below cost so it can make
>money on consumables. And I believe it for a long time. 

>But I'm starting to question this. What proof do we really have
> to back up to this up? And where does this come from? Did 
>Epson ever made a statement about it and shown audited figures? 

An Epson rep told me they lose money on every 220 sold.  Of course, that
might not have been the truth.

>I'll concede that the $29.99 printer may be a loss leader, but 
>I'm not convinced about printers like the R260s which I recently bought.

I'm not sure where the line is.  I was hoping the 13" models were above the
line so Epson might make one that we could use.  However, if they are going
after large format, they look like they're planning on fighting all third
party ink sales.

Write those letters.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

If I had the resources___________. How do you spell blackmarket?

Walt

>-----Original Message-----
>From: john dean [mailto:deanwork2003@...]
>Sent: Friday, November 2, 2007 11:14 AM
>To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Epson's court victory
>
>So that includes refillable bottle carts too, of all sorts, like MIS
>is selling now for the big ones?
>
>
>Man, that sounds like a tough nut to crack unles someone can find a
>way to make the inks float through the air an into the heads through 
>levitation. That is down right anti competitive free-enterprise market
>and unamerican.
>
>john

Charlie Thomson wrote: "I'll just say this.. You can vote every 4 years in
this country, if you don't like that MOVE!!!"

Now there's a really intelligent, constructive post about black-and-white
photography.

Folks, let's not go down this road anymore...

Rick

Frank,

Good question.

We are in Vermont. We have no sewage other than a septic field and our
water supply through a spring and a dug well. So we have to have a
zero-impact footprint at this location. And the problem with recycling
an original EPSON Ultrachrome color ink cartridge is the 3% dye EPSON
indicates they use on their MSDS. Dye prevents us from using water to
clean their color carts as dye can not be filtered economically from
waste water. 

While we can fill an EPSON brand 2400 color cartridge with our new
color ink, we can not clean it and fill it with Piezography ink. Not
here. That would make too much pollution.  HOWEVER, and that's a big
however, we CAN refill an existing Piezography cartridge with
Piezography ink. That's not a problem and it's not illegal. Also our
cartridges are really sturdy and they were designed for refilling.
Would not make it a more expensive product either.

Chips can be reset for many many times and because the chip itself is
not in question and they are still able to be imported if needed. We
built our filling equipment to be low-impact so its easy to change
inks in about 3 minutes and the clean up uses a few ounces of water.
We're in a perfect position to do this.


regards,

Jon


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Frank Jay
<frankjay02@...> wrote:
>
> 
> 
> Jon, 
>   when I go target shooting and use wadcutters, I get a discount on
my pack of 50 when I return a pack of 50 spent shells. the shells can
be used I believe 4-5 times depending on how the metal holds up. The
reloader saves money, and I Make money...we are both happy. 
>       If you, as a person in the ink business, were to give a dollar
amount credit if someone returns a used cart for a refilled cart, or
some process of that nature, how would that affect you as inkmaker and
us as end users. . Does'nt this law prohibit  only new imports?
>    
>   I do not know how many times a chip can be reset or a cart
re-loaded but could not some workaround be figured out using those
carts already in use in the US or is there a whole other more
complicated legal issue at play here.
>   just my two cents
>   Frank in NJ

>> And has anyone figured out how to refill 3800 carts yet?
>
 
>Paul, the biggest hindrance is resetting the chips-
>do you have any idea if the auto-reset chips are universal, 
>or printer- specific?

I expect they are printer specific.

>If we can get past that, then the simplest way would be 
>drilling a hole in the top, and corking it-IOW make your 
>own funnel-fill carts out of Epsons.

I'll check with MIS.  That fact that they were looking for beta testers for
the carts must mean they have some chips or a way to reset.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

>... How do you spell blackmarket?

C A N A D A ?

Europe and Canada are not covered by the US ITC.  I can just see those
guards I met this summer searching hundreds of trunks for ... inkjet
cartridges?

I really don't think it's over for third party materials.  They'll just be
harder to get.  I suspect there are large volumes of really cheap,
pre-loaded carts coming in from China that are in trouble.  Frankly, from
just a personal perspective, I don't care about those.

I did write a letter -- hope others are doing so also.


Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Paul,

I remember something else happening a couple years ago or maybe last
year that critics said would turn ordinary citizens into smugglers.
Not our industry though.

Do you remember what that was? And if so what ever happened...

Jon



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark"
<paul.roark@...> wrote:
>
> >... How do you spell blackmarket?
> 
> C A N A D A ?
> 
> Europe and Canada are not covered by the US ITC.  I can just see those
> guards I met this summer searching hundreds of trunks for ... inkjet
> cartridges?
> 
> I really don't think it's over for third party materials.  They'll
just be
> harder to get.  I suspect there are large volumes of really cheap,
> pre-loaded carts coming in from China that are in trouble.  Frankly,
from

> just a personal perspective, I don't care about those.
> 
> I did write a letter -- hope others are doing so also.
> 
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>

I don't know about the 3800 carts, but I have the impression that for 
the smaller printers Epson has spent a FORTUNE engineering them so that 
they CANNOT be effectively refilled by simply drilling a hole in them 
and pouring ink in.  The inner ink storage and air vent pathways are so 
convoluted that the storage chamber(s) are not accessible from the edges 
of the carts.  The only way in to the main storage chamber(s) is through 
the foil side cover, and once that is pierced it cannot be resealed.

Again, maybe the larger printers use different styles of cartridges, but 
I wouldn't be surprised if Epson spread its anti-fill engineering across 
all its products.

Cheers,
Kip

Steven Karafyllakis wrote:
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
> <mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint%40yahoogroups.com>, "Paul Roark"
> <paul.roark@...> wrote:
> >
> >
> > And has anyone figured out how to refill 3800 carts yet?
> >
> Paul, the biggest hindrance is resetting the chips-do you have any idea
> if the auto-reset chips are universal, or printer- specific? If we can
> get past that, then the simplest way would be drilling a hole in the
> top, and corking it-IOW make your own funnel-fill carts out of Epsons.
>
> Steven Karafyllakis
>  


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> Then a clear winner will be the first company that markets a chip free
> printer. One that accepts whatever inks one wants to load and perhaps
> bundled with a profiling kit, say a ???,  See what kind of traction 
it gains
> while Epson, and perhaps HP and Canon tag along, before the realize 
they
> will be fighting a losing battle. If they want to act like we'll all 
go
> along because we need to, the review mirror will get full awfully 
fast for
> Epson et la. 
> 

That's not going to happen. Companies large enough to develop and 
market printers have no economic interest in making printers for 
consumers that do use proprietary inks and carts. Printers are cheap. 
The money is in the consumables.

Paul G.

Hi Jon,

>... the problem with recycling an original EPSON Ultrachrome 
>color ink cartridge is the 3% dye EPSON indicates they use 
>on their MSDS.

I've never seen this.  At
http://www.epson.com/cgi-bin/Store/support/Supportmsdsmain.jsp? Epson
routinely uses the phrase "proprietary dyes and pigments."  However, that
seems to be the phrase they use to include the pigments.  Have you ever seen
them actually admit there are dies in the UC inks?

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Charlie Thomson" 
<ctk4clt@...> wrote:
>
> I am interested in Photography, Lets keep it that way.
> 
> I'll just say this.. You can vote every 4 years in this country, if 
you don't like that MOVE!!!
> 

Don't be so damn naive. Politics affect every aspect of our lives. This 
is another example of big business affecting politics. If you think you 
live in a true democracy you are truly naive.

> From: Dana H. Myers
> 
> It's what patent law is all about; you craft an invention
> and spend the time and money to patent it, you get protection 
> in return.  Further, if a patent holder doesn't vigorously 
> defend their patent claim, this can be used to invalidate the 
> patent.  That's likely why Epson goes to the expense to 
> litigate on infringement that is likely inconsequential to 
> their business - if they don't do this, then HP or some 
> Chinese knock-off could infringe and then win in court, which 
> would have a huge impact on Epson's business.

What I don't understand is why no one has mentioned the possibility of
licensing from Epson. I would think they'd be willing to to do that for some
reasonable amount, like a buck a cart or something. Makers of cheap ink for
people who want to print web pages wouldn't be able to afford it, but I
don't care about them. I care about people who sell "fine art" inksets that
provide some advantage over Epson, such as the B&W inksets everyone uses
here. I don't really care if they cost a bit more than Epson carts, because
price isn't why I buy them.

-- 

Ciao,               Paul D. DeRocco
Paul                mailto:pderocco@ix.netcom.com

Paul,

Its on their MSDS. The copy we have gives a 3% measure to proprietary
dyes and pigments. Please email me off list with your fax#, although
EPSON may have a documents download site. I can get it faxed to you on
Monday if you do not find it online by looking through docs and pdfs
directories.


Jon


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark"
<paul.roark@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Jon,
> 
> >... the problem with recycling an original EPSON Ultrachrome 
> >color ink cartridge is the 3% dye EPSON indicates they use 
> >on their MSDS.
> 
> I've never seen this.  At
> http://www.epson.com/cgi-bin/Store/support/Supportmsdsmain.jsp? Epson
> routinely uses the phrase "proprietary dyes and pigments."  However,
that
> seems to be the phrase they use to include the pigments.  Have you
ever seen

> them actually admit there are dies in the UC inks?
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>

This triggers another line of argumentation to me.

We're all concerned here with high quality archival printing,  something
color ink sets can't achieve to the same level as dedicated B&W inks. 
This was already true without the information below: Epson ABW uses
yellow, no good for an archival print.  The info below could strengthen
that (which should become evident from wilhelm tests, I didn't check).

So with Epson re-monopilizing the cartridges it effectively
re-monopolizes the inks and therefor potentially kills the archival
printing area. This will have a serious impact on our cultural heritage.
Archival B&W prints we're making today will last for more then a
century. B&W images of old are today an invaluable source of information
and enjoyment. Granted, in the digital era there are more means to
deliver information to next generations, but the discs we're archiving
our backups on will not outlive the prints...

As a European I can't address your leaders but you may consider whether
this argument could hold. Presented in the way above it's non-legal and
probably should be cast in a better form. Of course Epson is not
directly after our niche B&W market, but we're affected by the battle in
their core market. Denying archival B&W prints for the generations to
come is an undesirable side-effect of Epson's current battle.

Any good?

Joost




--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Jon Cone"
<jon@...> wrote:

>. And the problem with recycling
> an original EPSON Ultrachrome color ink cartridge is the 3% dye EPSON
> indicates they use on their MSDS. Dye prevents us from using water to
> clean their color carts as dye can not be filtered economically from
> waste water.

This thing about carts and Epson... I can think of examples of rights  
on both sides of the question.  Yes, Epson has the right to protect  
its R&D investment.  On the other hand, there are notable examples of  
hardware products which are not proprietarily linked to consumables.   
Cars, for instance.  Car manufacturers are not in the gas business.   
You do not have to put GM gas in your Chevy, or wouldn't, if it  
existed.  Cameras.  Kokak could have insisted that only Kodak film be  
used in its cameras.  Record players, CD players... you're not  
limited to CDs made by the player's company.  What about paper?  If  
Epson can squawk about ink, what about paper?  Isn't that the same  
type of thing?  And what about somebody like Cone, who is doing  
something substantially different from what Epson does?  Yes, recent  
Epson printers address the b&w issue, but they do it differently from  
what Cone does.  Epson doesn't have a dedicated grayscale inkset.  I  
could see Epson's point better if third parties were simply copying  
Epson dye ink, for instance, and selling it cheaper.  But what about  
making a better mousetrap?  Seems like anybody should have the right  
to make a better mousetrap.  I don't buy third party ink because it's  
cheaper; I buy it because it either does something different, or  
because it does it better.  Or so I hope.  And finally, what about  
licensing?  Issue licenses.  You want to use only Epson ink, you  
don't need a license.  You want to use a third party ink, you buy a  
license, get an iLok dongle, the license goes on that, and you use  
whatever ink you want.  You're happy, although it would cost more,  
and Epson's happy because they get a taste.

I'll write a letter, but even if it gets to Bush I can just see that  
dumb arrogant sonofabitch being all proud of his not knowing anything  
about the issues of some damn inkjet printers- let alone fine art and  
its practitioners- and siding with Epson- it's a big company, after all.

James
> .
>
> 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jon,

 

I don’t know about the marketing topography of printers, but it seems that
this is not about that small segment that uses BW non-Epson inks. 

 

Why not make a deal with Epson? A certain segment of the population buys
Epson products because they can be used with Piezography. If this segment
cannot use Piezography, then they will not buy the associated Epson product.
There should be very little cannibalisation due to Piezography. Epson should
have much reason to be happy about Piezography. 

 

In any case, I am assuming that there will be a way to get Piezography inks
also in the future. The difference is what the user will think of Epson
every time she/he has to go through the hassle.

 

Regards,

 

Lars

 

  _____  

Fra: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af Jon Cone
Sendt: 3. november 2007 04:49
Til: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Emne: [Digital BW] Re: for Jon Cone re:Epson's court victory

 

Frank,

Good question.

We are in Vermont. We have no sewage other than a septic field and our
water supply through a spring and a dug well. So we have to have a
zero-impact footprint at this location. And the problem with recycling
an original EPSON Ultrachrome color ink cartridge is the 3% dye EPSON
indicates they use on their MSDS. Dye prevents us from using water to
clean their color carts as dye can not be filtered economically from
waste water. 

While we can fill an EPSON brand 2400 color cartridge with our new
color ink, we can not clean it and fill it with Piezography ink. Not
here. That would make too much pollution. HOWEVER, and that's a big
however, we CAN refill an existing Piezography cartridge with
Piezography ink. That's not a problem and it's not illegal. Also our
cartridges are really sturdy and they were designed for refilling.
Would not make it a more expensive product either.

Chips can be reset for many many times and because the chip itself is
not in question and they are still able to be imported if needed. We
built our filling equipment to be low-impact so its easy to change
inks in about 3 minutes and the clean up uses a few ounces of water.
We're in a perfect position to do this.

regards,

Jon

--- In DigitalBlackandWhit
<mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint%40yahoogroups.com>
eThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Frank Jay
<frankjay02@...> wrote:
>
> 
> 
> Jon, 
> when I go target shooting and use wadcutters, I get a discount on
my pack of 50 when I return a pack of 50 spent shells. the shells can
be used I believe 4-5 times depending on how the metal holds up. The
reloader saves money, and I Make money...we are both happy. 
> If you, as a person in the ink business, were to give a dollar
amount credit if someone returns a used cart for a refilled cart, or
some process of that nature, how would that affect you as inkmaker and
us as end users. . Does'nt this law prohibit only new imports?
> 
> I do not know how many times a chip can be reset or a cart
re-loaded but could not some workaround be figured out using those
carts already in use in the US or is there a whole other more
complicated legal issue at play here.
> just my two cents
> Frank in NJ

 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Why? Epson makes $ selling ink, not printers.
Mark

On Nov 3, 2007, at 8:07 AM, Lars Molte Jakobsen wrote:

> Epson should
> have much reason to be happy about Piezography.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

thanks Jon, I appreciate the reply. I can see the zero environmental footprint need up in that beautiful state.
  Frank in NJ

Jon Cone <jon@inkjetmall.com> wrote:
          Frank,

Good question.

We are in Vermont. We have no sewage other than a septic field and our
water supply through a spring and a dug well. So we have to have a
zero-impact footprint at this location. And the problem with recycling
an original EPSON Ultrachrome color ink cartridge is the 3% dye EPSON
indicates they use on their MSDS. Dye prevents us from using water to
clean their color carts as dye can not be filtered economically from
waste water. 

While we can fill an EPSON brand 2400 color cartridge with our new
color ink, we can not clean it and fill it with Piezography ink. Not
here. That would make too much pollution. HOWEVER, and that's a big
however, we CAN refill an existing Piezography cartridge with
Piezography ink. That's not a problem and it's not illegal. Also our
cartridges are really sturdy and they were designed for refilling.
Would not make it a more expensive product either.

Chips can be reset for many many times and because the chip itself is
not in question and they are still able to be imported if needed. We
built our filling equipment to be low-impact so its easy to change
inks in about 3 minutes and the clean up uses a few ounces of water.
We're in a perfect position to do this.

regards,

Jon

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Frank Jay
<frankjay02@...> wrote:
>
> 
> 
> Jon, 
> when I go target shooting and use wadcutters, I get a discount on
my pack of 50 when I return a pack of 50 spent shells. the shells can
be used I believe 4-5 times depending on how the metal holds up. The
reloader saves money, and I Make money...we are both happy. 
> If you, as a person in the ink business, were to give a dollar
amount credit if someone returns a used cart for a refilled cart, or
some process of that nature, how would that affect you as inkmaker and
us as end users. . Does'nt this law prohibit only new imports?
> 
> I do not know how many times a chip can be reset or a cart
re-loaded but could not some workaround be figured out using those
carts already in use in the US or is there a whole other more
complicated legal issue at play here.
> just my two cents
> Frank in NJ



                         


"The luckiest dogs are those with clipped tails....they're the ones who won't be chasing their own arses."
 __________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

All it takes to ruin a well written email is the mudslinging about the president. It diminishes the source of the thought. If he is so dumb, why is he president and you aren't. Just stick to the topic.
  Frank in NJ

James Irelan <james@...> wrote:I'll write a letter, but even if it gets to Bush I can just see that 
dumb arrogant sonofabitch being all proud of his not knowing anything 
about the issues of some damn inkjet printers- let alone fine art and 
its practitioners- and siding with Epson- it's a big company, after all.


"The luckiest dogs are those with clipped tails....they're the ones who won't be chasing their own arses."
 __________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Whether or not one agrees with the assessment of Bush's personal 
qualities (I personally do agree), it is indisuptable that he has a 
strong penchant for big business! We're talking politics here, not 
science, and this point is quite pertinent.

Mitch, Berkshire County

Frank Jay wrote:

> All it takes to ruin a well written email is the mudslinging about the president. It diminishes the source of the thought. If he is so dumb, why is he president and you aren't. Just stick to the topic.
>   Frank in NJ
>
> James Irelan <james@...> wrote:I'll write a letter, but even if it gets to Bush I can just see that 
> dumb arrogant sonofabitch being all proud of his not knowing anything 
> about the issues of some damn inkjet printers- let alone fine art and 
> its practitioners- and siding with Epson- it's a big company, after all.
>
>
> "The luckiest dogs are those with clipped tails....they're the ones who won't be chasing their own arses."
>  __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
> http://mail.yahoo.com 
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as they are often being updated.
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> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE \ufffdOWNER\ufffd AND \ufffdMODERATORS\ufffd OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  \ufffdOWNER\ufffd AND \ufffdMODERATORS\ufffd OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
>  
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>

Name calling is never pertinent...didn't you go to kindergarten.
  Talk the politics, not the person.
  Frank

Mitch Greenwald <migreen@...> wrote:
  Whether or not one agrees with the assessment of Bush's personal 
qualities (I personally do agree), it is indisuptable that he has a 
strong penchant for big business! We're talking politics here, not 
science, and this point is quite pertinent.

Mitch, Berkshire County

Frank Jay wrote:
> All it takes to ruin a well written email is the mudslinging about the president. It diminishes the source of the thought. If he is so dumb, why is he president and you aren't. Just stick to the topic.
> Frank in NJ
>
> James Irelan wrote:I'll write a letter, but even if it gets to Bush I can just see that 
> dumb arrogant sonofabitch being all proud of his not knowing anything 
> about the issues of some damn inkjet printers- let alone fine art and 
> its practitioners- and siding with Epson- it's a big company, after all.
>
>
> "The luckiest dogs are those with clipped tails....they're the ones who won't be chasing their own arses."
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
> http://mail.yahoo.com 
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as they are often being updated.
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and Moderators. See “Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines” in the Files section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
>
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE “OWNER” AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE “OWNER” AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
> 


Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as they are often being updated.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page.

Please follow these basic guidelines:
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership without notice.
- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the membership.
- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and Moderators. See “Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines” in the Files section:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/

BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE “OWNER” AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE “OWNER” AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.

Yahoo! Groups Links






"The luckiest dogs are those with clipped tails....they're the ones who won't be chasing their own arses."
 __________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Frank
Well said
Paul

-----Original Message-----
From: "Frank Jay" <frankjay02@...>
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 11/3/2007 6:14 AM
Subject: [Digital BW] I thought the political crap was done with

All it takes to ruin a well written email is the mudslinging about the president. It diminishes the source of the thought. If he is so dumb, why is he president and you aren't. Just stick to the topic.
  Frank in NJ

James Irelan <james@...> wrote:I'll write a letter, but even if it gets to Bush I can just see that 
dumb arrogant sonofabitch being all proud of his not knowing anything 
about the issues of some damn inkjet printers- let alone fine art and 
its practitioners- and 
[truncated by sender]

The truth is, neither political party is worth a damn. Bush sells out to big
business and the Clintons sell out to the Chinese. We need a new political
party.

The best idea in this entire thread was the suggestion regarding a
coordinated legal attack against Epson.

The beta/vhs anology is interesting. If anyone remembers, beta was far
superior to vhs. It was killed by idiotic marketing practice by Sony.
Perhaps Epson is making the same mistake.

 

  _____  

From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Paul
Grant
Sent: Saturday, November 03, 2007 10:07 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Digital BW] I thought the political crap was done with

 

Frank
Well said
Paul

-----Original Message-----
From: "Frank Jay" <frankjay02@yahoo. <mailto:frankjay02%40yahoo.com> com>
To: DigitalBlackandWhit
<mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint%40yahoogroups.com>
eThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 11/3/2007 6:14 AM
Subject: [Digital BW] I thought the political crap was done with

All it takes to ruin a well written email is the mudslinging about the
president. It diminishes the source of the thought. If he is so dumb, why is
he president and you aren't. Just stick to the topic.
Frank in NJ

James Irelan <james@redweather. <mailto:james%40redweather.com> com>
wrote:I'll write a letter, but even if it gets to Bush I can just see that 
dumb arrogant sonofabitch being all proud of his not knowing anything 
about the issues of some damn inkjet printers- let alone fine art and 
its practitioners- and 
[truncated by sender]

 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In a message dated 11/2/07 6:04:48 PM, andre1moreau@... writes:


> 
> But I'm starting to question this. What proof do we really have to
> back up to this up? And where does this come from? Did Epson ever made
> a statement about it and shown audited figures?
> 

This is hardly a statement that Epson would make themselves. Its been pointed 
out by others to explain Epson's marketing model (such as Harald Johnson in 
"Mastering Digital Printing"). The closest I have ever come to having an Epson 
employee agree to this statement was to have one reword it to "Lets just say 
that media and inks are a more lucrative profit center than desktop 
printers"... which seems both accurate and well worded.

C. David Tobie
Product Technology Manager
Digital Imaging Division
Datacolor Inc.
CDTobie@...
www.spyder3.com


**************************************
 See what's new at 
http://www.aol.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Prohibition once again? :-)

Canada is your friend. I would order carts for you anytime! Lol...

Denis from Canada

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Jon Cone"
<jon@...> wrote:

>
> Paul,
> 
> I remember something else happening a couple years ago or maybe last
> year that critics said would turn ordinary citizens into smugglers.
> Not our industry though.
> 
> Do you remember what that was? And if so what ever happened...
> 
> Jon
> 
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark"
> <paul.roark@> wrote:
> >
> > >... How do you spell blackmarket?
> > 
> > C A N A D A ?
> > 
> > Europe and Canada are not covered by the US ITC.  I can just see those
> > guards I met this summer searching hundreds of trunks for ... inkjet
> > cartridges?
> > 
> > I really don't think it's over for third party materials.  They'll
> just be
> > harder to get.  I suspect there are large volumes of really cheap,
> > pre-loaded carts coming in from China that are in trouble.  Frankly,
> from
> > just a personal perspective, I don't care about those.
> > 
> > I did write a letter -- hope others are doing so also.
> > 
> > 
> > Paul
> > www.PaulRoark.com
> >
>

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "the_des_bois"
<thedesbois@...> wrote:
>
> Prohibition once again? :-)
> 
> Canada is your friend. I would order carts for you anytime! Lol...
> 
> Denis from Canada

well, let me put my minor two-cents into this discussion. Denise is
correct, carts can be ordered via Canada (or Mexico, or Taiwan, or
Australia) as well as bulk ink.  I'm such a small-time operator, I
hardly think I'll be raided by the Feds for having illegal carts, nor
do I think I'll be hauled into court by Epson for infringement.  I'm
confident that the carts and inks will be available.

For the person who stated he wasn't sure that Epson sold printers
below cost, to make up profits in ink sales, I remind everyone to
remember that Epson just lost a lawsuit last year over having the
chips on the carts telling the printer it was out of ink, when at
least a third of the cart still had ink in it.  Epson got greedy, and
got caught. 

I bought a bunch of extra empty carts from MIS for future use, as I'm
sure a lot of these companies selling carts will be in deep financial
trouble, possibly resulting in bankruptcy. I don't know what the
future will hold, but I'm positive that eventually, a solution will be
found.  It may result in a blackmarket, such as pirated software, but
the ink and carts will be available for the short term until a
permanent solution is found.

Uncle Dannie

I would assume that any petition or public statement by end users
should stress the environmental implications of tossing used carts
into the landfill.... However, I'm not sure how you get them on that
basis when they cleaverly set up this "recycling program" for used
carats recently that covers them on that basis. I don't think that was
designed to protect the ground water. 

john

On Nov 3, 2007, at 8:14 AM, Frank Jay wrote:

> All it takes to ruin a well written email is the mudslinging about  
> the president. It diminishes the source of the thought. If he is so  
> dumb, why is he president and you aren't. Just stick to the topic.
>
>

I was, and now you aren't.  It was on topic (the topic being what  
could be done by writing a letter) and what would likely be Bush's  
reaction to such a letter, should he ever see it.  He does not listen  
to anyone, apparently, outside of his small circle of advisors.  He  
does not listen to the American people.  It is not mudslinging to  
assess his arrogance, nor his intelligence, which is average at  
best.  He is president because he at one time had effective grass  
roots political appeal, he saw the religious right as his power base  
and he wooed them, he fit into Karl Rove's vision, and he capitalized  
on Clinton's indiscretions.  And even though it is actually you who  
are mudslinging  me by saying something as dumb as "why aren't YOU  
president", yes you are right.  I am not smart enough to be the kind  
of president that I think should be president.  But at least I know  
it.  And obviously  the cynical power mongers who maneuvered Bush  
into office know it about Bush,  and yet they did it, and you voted  
for them.  Twice.  Enjoy the coming war with Iran.

I do apologize for leading any foray toward off topic politics, and  
will curtail my involvement.  But when we're talking about writing to  
the president for action, it is germane to consider the person to  
whom we write, and what consideration he might give our position  
based on his track record with far more grave concerns than inkjet  
carts.  I do not apologize for anything I said, however, except for  
the careless common expression which when taken literally maligns his  
mother, which was not intended.  I respect both his mother and his  
father.  I can't for an instant think that they are anything less  
than mortified with the way things turned out.

James
> .
>
> 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> From: James Irelan
> 
> I was, and now you aren't.  It was on topic (the topic being what  
> could be done by writing a letter) and what would likely be Bush's  
> reaction to such a letter, should he ever see it.  He does 
> not listen  
> to anyone, apparently, outside of his small circle of advisors.  He  
> does not listen to the American people.  It is not mudslinging to  
> assess his arrogance, nor his intelligence, which is average at  
> best.  He is president because he at one time had effective grass  
> roots political appeal, he saw the religious right as his power base  
> and he wooed them, he fit into Karl Rove's vision, and he 
> capitalized  
> on Clinton's indiscretions.  And even though it is actually you who  
> are mudslinging  me by saying something as dumb as "why aren't YOU  
> president", yes you are right.  I am not smart enough to be the kind  
> of president that I think should be president.  But at least I know  
> it.  And obviously  the cynical power mongers who maneuvered Bush  
> into office know it about Bush,  and yet they did it, and you voted  
> for them.  Twice.  Enjoy the coming war with Iran.
> 
> I do apologize for leading any foray toward off topic politics, and  
> will curtail my involvement.  But when we're talking about 
> writing to  
> the president for action, it is germane to consider the person to  
> whom we write, and what consideration he might give our position  
> based on his track record with far more grave concerns than inkjet  
> carts.  I do not apologize for anything I said, however, except for  
> the careless common expression which when taken literally 
> maligns his  
> mother, which was not intended.  I respect both his mother and his  
> father.  I can't for an instant think that they are anything less  
> than mortified with the way things turned out.

About 1% of that post was on-topic. The other 99% was BDS.

-- 

Ciao,               Paul D. DeRocco
Paul                mailto:pderocco@...

>I would assume that any petition or public statement by 
>end users should stress the environmental implications 
>of tossing used carts into the landfill.... 

In policy decisions everything goes into the mix, even if informally.
Everyone knows that, recycling programs notwithstanding, many will just
trash the little carts.

Pursue everything, including getting SSC or others to write software that
simply cuts out the chip entirely.  Then let them try to stop acrylic boxes
with funnel holes that happen to fit into Epson large format printers.

Indirectly we should be negotiating a mutually-beneficial partnership with
Epson.  High end B&W is a prestige niche.  We want to use the printers, and
they want us to also.  But, they want the whole business.  They'll back down
if they think we'll just go over to Canon, HP, Kodak, or whoever, or that
otherwise their desire to get it all is simply not going to happen.

I held records for cases & litigations handled and never had to actually go
through a single trial.  Rational people settle when you lay your cards on
the table in front of the client, demonstrate convincingly that you're going
to blow their ------- heads off if they go to trial, and offer them a
solution that gives everyone what they need. 

With luck Epson and this niche will find a solution that gives us and them
what we all need.  

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Paul, I hope this may be of some use to you.

This is an extract from Epson’s “Dye” and “Pigment” inks MSDS for the Epson Stylus 1400. Look at the colour coded MSDS statements this is supposed to be a dye ink and the Colourants should completely solubilise in water.
Pigments and Particles don’t dissolve in water. The same thing goes for the Ultra-Chromes in reverse, that Ink also contains both dye and Pigments. If this is correct then these MSDS’s are not truthful – or Epson’s advertising is not truthful and under EU Regulations they could be refused entry into the EU. It may be possible to link this with the inability to “Re-use” Epson Carts which would be in breach of the EU “Reach Agreement”. This May be applicable in the US as I believe that CA has introduced something similar to the “Reach Agreement”? 
Should you want them I have a No. of the relevant MSDS’s and I posted the web access to the Reach Agreement the other day.
 
 
2.      Composition Information
         
         This is an aqueous ink formulation
 
                                                Ink Composition.                 CAS No.                                % By Weight
 
                                                Carbon Black                                        1333-86-4                                    < 3%
                                                Proprietary dyes and Pigments               -                                               < 5%
                                                Proprietary organic materials                  -                                              5 - 10%
                                                Glycerols                                                    -                                             10 - 15%
                                                Water                                                     7732-18-5                                  balence            
 
 
9.      Physical and Chemical Properties of ink formulation
 
            Appearance:                             Black Liquid
            Odor:                                         None
            pH:                                             9.0 – 10.0
            Boiling point:                          Approximately 212 deg.  F / 100deg. C
            Freezing point:                        Less than 32deg. F / 0 deg. C
            Melting point:                          Less than 32deg. F / 0 deg. C
            Flash point:                              Greater than 230 deg. F / 110deg. C (closed cup, ASTM D 3278)
            Autoflammability:                   None
            Explosive properties:             None
            Oxidizing properties:             None
            Vapor density:                         Greater than 1 (air = 1)
            Relative density:                      1.07 at 68 deg. F / 20 deg. C
            Solubility in water:                 Complete
            Solubility in fat:                      No data available
            Partition coefficient:              No data available
            Viscosity:                                  Less than 5 mPa-s                                                
 
11.    Toxicology and Health Hazards
 
         Routes Of Overexposure:       Eye, skin, inhalation, and oral
 
            Acute Health Hazards:
 
·               Overexposure of eye surface to ink may be mildly irritating
·               Overexposure of skin to ink contact may cause irritation and in some people swelling and redness
·               Intentional inhalation overexposure to ink vapours may result in respiratory tract irritation
·               Intentional or accidental oral ingestion may cause upset stomach

----- Original Message ----
From: Paul Roark <paul.roark@...>
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, 3 November, 2007 7:54:35 PM
Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Re: Epson's court victory

>I would assume that any petition or public statement by 
>end users should stress the environmental implications 
>of tossing used carts into the landfill.... 

In policy decisions everything goes into the mix, even if informally.
Everyone knows that, recycling programs notwithstanding, many will just
trash the little carts.

Pursue everything, including getting SSC or others to write software that
simply cuts out the chip entirely. Then let them try to stop acrylic boxes
with funnel holes that happen to fit into Epson large format printers.

Indirectly we should be negotiating a mutually-beneficial partnership with
Epson. High end B&W is a prestige niche. We want to use the printers, and
they want us to also. But, they want the whole business. They'll back down
if they think we'll just go over to Canon, HP, Kodak, or whoever, or that
otherwise their desire to get it all is simply not going to happen.

I held records for cases & litigations handled and never had to actually go
through a single trial. Rational people settle when you lay your cards on
the table in front of the client, demonstrate convincingly that you're going
to blow their ------- heads off if they go to trial, and offer them a
solution that gives everyone what they need. 

With luck Epson and this niche will find a solution that gives us and them
what we all need. 

Paul
www.PaulRoark. com 





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>This is an extract from Epson's "Dye" and "Pigment" inks MSDS 
>for the Epson Stylus 1400. Look at the colour coded MSDS statements 
>this is supposed to be a dye ink and the Colourants should 
>completely solubilise in water.

>Pigments and Particles don't dissolve in water. 

>The same thing goes for the Ultra-Chromes in reverse, 

And yet the MSDSs look essentially the same.  They claim UC is completely
soluble. 

>that Ink also contains both dye and Pigments.

That's one of the questions I have.  Does it really contain dyes -- other
than the "dye stacks" that are one characterization of the pigments we use.

> If this is correct then these MSDS's are not truthful - 
> or Epson's advertising is not truthful ...

Yes, that's sort of what I'm getting at. 

>... the EU "Reach Agreement"...
> I posted the web access to the Reach Agreement the other day.

Could you re-post that?  I think I missed it.

As far as I know, the Epson MSDSs are all at
http://www.epson.com/cgi-bin/Store/support/Supportmsdsmain.jsp? 

Paul

John, as a reminder, Epson's "recycling" program appears to simply 
gather the carts and send them to an incinerator.

All municipal recycling programs that I am award of divert material 
that is to be considered recycled to a secondary use (depending on 
the type of material...some, like aluminum, can go back to primary 
use, while plastics usually result in lower grade plastic). Remaining 
material is sent to disposal at a landfill or incinerator*.

-matt

*some of these incinerators recover heat for electricity or steam.
>However, I'm not sure how you get them on that
> basis when they cleaverly set up this "recycling program" for used
> carats recently that covers them on that basis. I don't think that was
> designed to protect the ground water. 
> 
> john
X-PMFLAGS: 16384 0 1 INETSIG.PMS                            

--
Matt Haber
dance, portrait and fashion photography
http://www.matthaber.com

I didn't know that they didn't resuse the materials? Come to think of
it they would be difficult to clean out and a costly endeavor. If that
IS accurate then the whole Epson Recycling Program is a total fraud
and should be exposed as such! Putting waste into the air rather than
landfils isn't accomplishing anything but an illusion of environmental
responsibility (what else is new). If what you say is true that's
pretty significant for the arguement for a refillable system, which is
really what we should have for everything. 

john




--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Matt Haber"
<matt@...> wrote:

>
> John, as a reminder, Epson's "recycling" program appears to simply 
> gather the carts and send them to an incinerator.
> 
> All municipal recycling programs that I am award of divert material 
> that is to be considered recycled to a secondary use (depending on 
> the type of material...some, like aluminum, can go back to primary 
> use, while plastics usually result in lower grade plastic). Remaining 
> material is sent to disposal at a landfill or incinerator*.
> 
> -matt
> 
> *some of these incinerators recover heat for electricity or steam.
> >However, I'm not sure how you get them on that
> > basis when they cleaverly set up this "recycling program" for used
> > carats recently that covers them on that basis. I don't think that was
> > designed to protect the ground water. 
> > 
> > john
> X-PMFLAGS: 16384 0 1 INETSIG.PMS                            
> 
> --
> Matt Haber
> dance, portrait and fashion photography
> http://www.matthaber.com
>

John,

AFAIK, that's all the EPSON recycling program has ever been in North 
America, it's been a buyback and bury/burn program.


john dean wrote:
> I didn't know that they didn't resuse the materials? Come to think of
> it they would be difficult to clean out and a costly endeavor. If that
> IS accurate then the whole Epson Recycling Program is a total fraud
> and should be exposed as such! Putting waste into the air rather than
> landfils isn't accomplishing anything but an illusion of environmental
> responsibility (what else is new). If what you say is true that's
> pretty significant for the arguement for a refillable system, which is
> really what we should have for everything. 
>   


-- 

 
Keith Krebs

"Just some guy," caretaker of the Multiverse's largest EPSON printer 
User Community (highly recommended by Vogon Poets and MegaDodo 
Publications), at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EPSON_Printers/
and  the Multiverse's largest Canon printer User  Community at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Canon-printers
"For the rest of you out there, the secret is to bang the rocks together 
guys"

 

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

john dean wrote:
> I didn't know that they didn't resuse the materials? Come to think of
> it they would be difficult to clean out and a costly endeavor. If that
> IS accurate then the whole Epson Recycling Program is a total fraud
> and should be exposed as such! Putting waste into the air rather than
> landfils isn't accomplishing anything but an illusion of environmental
> responsibility (what else is new). If what you say is true that's
> pretty significant for the arguement for a refillable system, which is
> really what we should have for everything. 
>
> john
>
>   
Here's the original EPSON USA PR release on their "recycling" program.

http://www.epson.com/cmc_upload/pdf/FundingFactoryFinalRelease.pdf

Notice the "incineration"...

-- 

 
Keith Krebs

"Just some guy," caretaker of the Multiverse's largest EPSON printer 
User Community (highly recommended by Vogon Poets and MegaDodo 
Publications), at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EPSON_Printers/
and  the Multiverse's largest Canon printer User  Community at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Canon-printers
"For the rest of you out there, the secret is to bang the rocks together 
guys"

 

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> Perhaps Epson is making the same mistake.

Did you accidentally, or deliberately, forget HP and Canon in that sentence?

Bob Frost.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Robert W. Shearer" <rwshearer@...>

Does this ruling affect thos eusing continuous flow systems in their
printers?

D r e w 

On Fri, 2007-11-02 at 19:21 +0000, Jon Cone wrote:
> CIS systems are not exempt which use a container with or without a
> chip attached but that can be read if it is used (the chip is not the
> issue, simply its location), or empty into the printer through the
> printer's needle via a port, or are held in place with a device
> clipped against the carriage.

Paul and others... my I quote some of these posts? With credits of course?
There are some other lists with broader audiences I'd love to expose to some of your 
knowledge. Right now they are basically deluged with off topic, distracting, political, or 
agenda'd posts.
I'll try later today to get some decent posts there, could result in a few more letters.
Can't hurt.
Tyler

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Tyler Boley" <tyler@...> wrote:
>
> Paul and others... my I quote some of these posts? With credits of course?

better yet, if I could talk you into briefly joining these groups and correcting some of the 
misinformation there, it would be great. Paul, please include your ex-FTC creds as you have 
here, impressive.

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?t=30216
http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=20648

There's a lot of cynicism around, I have it too. But this just seems like so little effort, who 
knows?
Even if it's hopeless, at least some effort was put forward toward something we care about. 
Tyler

>
> There's a lot of cynicism around, I have it too. But this just  
> seems like so little effort, who
> knows?
> Even if it's hopeless, at least some effort was put forward toward  
> something we care about.
> Tyler
>


I sent my letter today, based on Paul's template, with some  
additional observations which I'm sure will sway nobody in power.   
I'm sure far at the bottom of their list in importance would be the  
artistic and livelihood concerns of artists, but I mentioned them  
anyway.  You're right; I'm not sanguine about holding any sway with  
anyone, but what're you gonna do but whatever it is you can to make  
your voice heard.

James

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Users of CIS systems or carts that violate Epson's patents have no problems
- until the systems break and you need to replace one of the carts that is
used to connect the CIS to the printer.  The problem is that the people we
buy from will find it much harder to buy supplies.  So, prices may go up and
supplies of carts may dry up.  

 

However, it's really too early to know.  I'm just not sure but what there
are carts that are fine and don't violate any patents.  I suspect the
companies with inventories of carts are doing a great business right now
selling to people like us who might be inclined to horde some supplies just
in case.

 

Paul

www.PaulRoark.com <http://www.paulroark.com/>  

 

 

  _____  

From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Drew Tait
Sent: Sunday, November 04, 2007 1:53 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Epson's court victory

 

Does this ruling affect thos eusing continuous flow systems in their
printers?

D r e w 
On Fri, 2007-11-02 at 19:21 +0000, Jon Cone wrote:
> CIS systems are not exempt which use a container with or without a
> chip attached but that can be read if it is used (the chip is not the
> issue, simply its location), or empty into the printer through the
> printer's needle via a port, or are held in place with a device
> clipped against the carriage.

 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Tyler,

 

Feel free to use whatever.  I am not an expert in ITC matters, but in
antitrust (competition matters) and with respect to knowing generally how
governmental agencies work I think I have a good handle on those issues.

 

Paul

www.PaulRoark.com <http://www.paulroark.com/>  

 

 

  _____  

From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tyler
Boley
Sent: Sunday, November 04, 2007 2:36 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Epson's court victory

 

Paul and others... my I quote some of these posts? With credits of course?
There are some other lists with broader audiences I'd love to expose to some
of your 
knowledge. Right now they are basically deluged with off topic, distracting,
political, or 
agenda'd posts.
I'll try later today to get some decent posts there, could result in a few
more letters.
Can't hurt.
Tyler

 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

and not a single person has mentioned the fact about Epson ripping consumers off with the nonsense that went on with the printers telling you "ink low replace now" when in fact there was plenty of ink (30%??) left in the carts. 
So if you think "buying direct from Epson" your assured OEM inks, your dreaming. Does Epson manufacture the cartridges? Do they make the ink? 

Even now the various Epson printers give you this warning to replace ink when you can still make many more prints. I'm surprised they have not put some kind of warning siren that goes off when your ink is low. :)
I say NO! to Epson's court victory. (if that's what you call it.)

Charles.

----- Original Message ----
From: Robert W. Shearer <rwshearer@...>
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, November 3, 2007 9:08:59 AM
Subject: RE: [Digital BW] I thought the political crap was done with

The truth is, neither political party is worth a damn. Bush sells out to big
business and the Clintons sell out to the Chinese. We need a new political
party.

The best idea in this entire thread was the suggestion regarding a
coordinated legal attack against Epson.

The beta/vhs anology is interesting. If anyone remembers, beta was far
superior to vhs. It was killed by idiotic marketing practice by Sony.
Perhaps Epson is making the same mistake.

_____ 

From: DigitalBlackandWhit eThePrint@ yahoogroups. com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhit eThePrint@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Paul
Grant
Sent: Saturday, November 03, 2007 10:07 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhit eThePrint@ yahoogroups. com
Subject: RE: [Digital BW] I thought the political crap was done with

Frank
Well said
Paul

-----Original Message-----
From: "Frank Jay" <frankjay02@ yahoo. <mailto:frankjay02% 40yahoo.com> com>
To: DigitalBlackandWhit
<mailto:DigitalBlac kandWhiteThePrin t%40yahoogroups. com>
eThePrint@yahoogrou ps.com
Sent: 11/3/2007 6:14 AM
Subject: [Digital BW] I thought the political crap was done with

All it takes to ruin a well written email is the mudslinging about the
president. It diminishes the source of the thought. If he is so dumb, why is
he president and you aren't. Just stick to the topic.
Frank in NJ

James Irelan <james@redweather. <mailto:james% 40redweather. com> com>
wrote:I'll write a letter, but even if it gets to Bush I can just see that 
dumb arrogant sonofabitch being all proud of his not knowing anything 
about the issues of some damn inkjet printers- let alone fine art and 
its practitioners- and 
[truncated by sender]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Charles Becker 
<gypyjunior@...> wrote:
>
> and not a single person has mentioned the fact about Epson ripping 
consumers off with the nonsense that went on with the printers 
telling you "ink low replace now" when in fact there was plenty of 
ink (30%??) left in the carts.

So, who am I?  Chopped Liver?  I thought I mentioned that fact in my 
message # 88330.  It just shows: Those with the gold, make the rules.

I just have to play out the hand that was delt me. I firmly believe 
in the underground, and someone, somewhere, will supply me with carts 
and inks. 

Uncle Dannie

Well, my answer to Epson is simply to buy either Canon or HP the next time around..... the reviews I have seen on some of the Canon printers suggest very economical ink usag...or maybe the HP which gets good reviews for B&W.

40 years is in corporate business consulting has tought me me that you are never "the only game in town".

David



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

While the dogma has been that the B&W market is such a gnat that Epson could
not care less about it, note the Epson ads in the current crop of photo
magazines on the stands -- complete with a full page B&W photo.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

All of these companies are newbies when it comes to fine photographic
printing, viewed in the larger view of photographic materials. They
see a market and are attempting to provide a solution.
But the market was never like this in the past. Few if any of us,
other than perhaps commercial labs doing quantity, ever accepted a
solution entirely from one company.
I used Agfa Portriga, in Ilford Bromophen with Kodak Benzatriazol
added, Kodak stop bath, unhardened fix I mixed, Kodak Selenium toner,
and on and on. Then some prints were on Pal Print, in Agfa Neutol...
well you get the idea. The artists were the ones messing about,
discovering ways to create extraordinary objects from these products,
never the board rooms. Their names make up our history.
Since when did we so readily accept the notion that product teams from
three manufacturers will determine the subtle nuances of how our
individual art appears?
Sorry, but when it comes to my life's work- I'm the decider.
For better or worse.
Polaroid and Kodak gave materials to the likes of Adams, Weston,
Caponigro, for feedback, and not even for marketing! Who here has been
approached for feedback from any of these companies? I've been doing
this quite a while, and my name out there a bit, my only contact with
Epson was an expression of disappointment I wasn't using their ink,
they didn't even look at the damn print.
My rant for the evening.

Tyler, the decider

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "David M. Dorn"
<dmdornctusa@...> wrote:
>
> Well, my answer to Epson is simply to buy either Canon or HP the
next time around..... the reviews I have seen on some of the Canon
printers suggest very economical ink usag...or maybe the HP which gets
good reviews for B&W.
> 
> 40 years is in corporate business consulting has tought me me that
you are never "the only game in town".

> 
> David
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

> and not a single person has mentioned the fact about Epson ripping 
> consumers off with the
> nonsense that went on with the printers telling you "ink low replace now" 
> when in fact there was >plenty of ink (30%??) left in the carts.
>Even now the various Epson printers give you this warning to replace ink 
>when you can still make >many more prints. I'm surprised they have not put 
>some kind of warning siren that goes off when >your ink is low. :)


Not sure what printer you are using, but my Epson R2400 gives me much more 
useful info than you suggest.

The first warning that I will need a new cart comes when the ink is down to 
20% in a cart, and the last when it is down to 5% (and it tells me those 
percentages), and when it gets to 0% it stops and requests me to change the 
cart.

In between, it gives me messages like the current one, saying that I can 
print about 25 more pages like the last one before I need a new cart.

All in all, very helpful reminders.

Bob Frost.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Charles Becker" <gypyjunior@...>

But are the cartridges then bone dry Bob, or still have 30% left in them, as 
has been suggested in earlier posts?

Tony Wells,
A new group member from England.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bob Frost" <bob@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2007 11:37 AM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] I thought the political crap was done with


> and not a single person has mentioned the fact about Epson ripping
> consumers off with the
> nonsense that went on with the printers telling you "ink low replace now"
> when in fact there was >plenty of ink (30%??) left in the carts.
>Even now the various Epson printers give you this warning to replace ink
>when you can still make >many more prints. I'm surprised they have not put
>some kind of warning siren that goes off when >your ink is low. :)


Not sure what printer you are using, but my Epson R2400 gives me much more
useful info than you suggest.

The first warning that I will need a new cart comes when the ink is down to
20% in a cart, and the last when it is down to 5% (and it tells me those
percentages), and when it gets to 0% it stops and requests me to change the
cart.

In between, it gives me messages like the current one, saying that I can
print about 25 more pages like the last one before I need a new cart.

All in all, very helpful reminders.

Bob Frost.

Tyler the Decider-

I'll vote for you, if you decide to run. But only if you promise to restore the NEA.


 


Bill Kennedy
K2 Press
Austin, Texas

-----Original Message-----
From: Tyler Boley <tyler@...>
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 11:39 pm
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Epson's court victory


















  



    

            
All of these companies are newbies when it comes to fine photographic

printing, viewed in the larger view of photographic materials. They

see a market and are attempting to provide a solution.

But the market was never like this in the past. Few if any of us,

other than perhaps commercial labs doing quantity, ever accepted a

solution entirely from one company.

I used Agfa Portriga, in Ilford Bromophen with Kodak Benzatriazol

added, Kodak stop bath, unhardened fix I mixed, Kodak Selenium toner,

and on and on. Then some prints were on Pal Print, in Agfa Neutol...

well you get the idea. The artists were the ones messing about,

discovering ways to create extraordinary objects from these products,

never the board rooms. Their names make up our history.

Since when did we so readily accept the notion that product teams from

three manufacturers will determine the subtle nuances of how our

individual art appears?

Sorry, but when it comes to my life's work- I'm the decider.

For better or worse.

Polaroid and Kodak gave materials to the likes of Adams, Weston,

Caponigro, for feedback, and not even for marketing! Who here has been

approached for feedback from any of these companies? I've been doing

this quite a while, and my name out there a bit, my only contact with

Epson was an expression of disappointment I wasn't using their ink,

they didn't even look at the damn print.

My rant for the evening.



Tyler, the decider



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "David M. Dorn"

<dmdornctusa@...> wrote:

>

> Well, my answer to Epson is simply to buy either Canon or HP the

next time around..... the reviews I have seen on some of the Canon

printers suggest very economical ink usag...or maybe the HP which gets

good reviews for B&W.

> 

> 40 years is in corporate business consulting has tought me me that

you are never "the only game in town".

> 

> David

> 

> 

> 

> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>





    
  

    
    








 


________________________________________________________________________
Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sounds like Socialism to me. We need more red  blooded American
competition out there.

j
-----------------------> 
> Epson was an expression of disappointment I wasn't using their ink,
> 
> they didn't even look at the damn print.
> 
> My rant for the evening.
> 
> 
> 
> Tyler, the decider
> 
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "David M. Dorn"
> 
> <dmdornctusa@> wrote:
> 
> >
> 
> > Well, my answer to Epson is simply to buy either Canon or HP the
> 
> next time around..... the reviews I have seen on some of the Canon
> 
> printers suggest very economical ink usag...or maybe the HP which gets
> 
> good reviews for B&W.
> 
> > 
> 
> > 40 years is in corporate business consulting has tought me me that
> 
> you are never "the only game in town".
> 
> > 
> 
> > David
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
> >
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>     
>   
> 
>     
>     
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> 
> ________________________________________________________________________
> Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL
Mail! - http://mail.aol.com

> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Arthur Entlich did a long essay on the Epson Printers forum yesterday 
discussing the Epson cartridge chips and their low ink warnings.  
Essentially, all the printer can tell you is an estimate of the ink 
remaining based on its assumptions about how much ink was used.  It is a 
rough estimate at best.  For example, Art suggests that the printers can 
print dots of various sizes as called for by the driver, but the ink 
counter probably only uses an average dot size when figuring ink usage. 

Cleaning cycles are assumed to use all the ink that would flow through 
an unrestricted nozzle, but if you're cleaning to clear a blocked 
nozzle(s) and no ink is getting through, the printer still assumes 
you're flushing a "normal" amount from the cartridge each time.  It is 
possible, if you have a really clogged head, to put in a new cartridge 
and run cleaning cycles to the point where the printer calculates that 
your cartridge is empty, even though in fact NO ink has been removed 
from it because of the clog.  Still, the chip on the cartridge will be 
written as "empty" and the cartridge will no longer function in any 
printer unless you can reset it somehow.

This is not necessarily a criticism of Epson, given that the cost of an 
actual ink measurement system would probably be prohibitively expensive 
to install in the level of printers that Epson wants to sell by the 
million.  I believe Epson was hammered in their class action because 
their assumptions built into the ink usage calculations were designed so 
that even with perfectly "normal" usage the customer still was told to 
throw away the cartridge when there were /substantial/ amounts of ink left.

I do think the Canon system (in their BCI-6 cartridges - don't know if 
the newer printers still use it) was the far better way to go - the 
printer calculates usage, and displays estimated ink levels in each 
cartridge as you go, but the low ink warning is only triggered by an 
optical sensor which can tell when the ink reservoir is empty, meaning 
the only ink left is that in the sponge section.

Cheers,
Kip

Bob Frost wrote:
> Not sure what printer you are using, but my Epson R2400 gives me much more 
> useful info than you suggest.
>
> <snip>
>   


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Oh, come on. You don't think Epson could have devised a more accurate
system after all these years to measure these carts? Why should they?
They only did minor corrections when they were sued into it in
California, and we all got our little rebates. I hope it happens again.

Look, both Canon and HP did it with their very first fine art printers
in a responsible way. They both recycle the ink and don't dump huge
quantities in to the waste tank (talking about environmental waste).
These other companies aren't perfect by a long shot but they did that
right.

And that is not even bringing up the MK to PK purge waste  which on a
national basis is huge too. 

john

--------

> This is not necessarily a criticism of Epson, given that the cost of an 
> actual ink measurement system would probably be prohibitively expensive 
> to install in the level of printers that Epson wants to sell by the 
> million.  I believe Epson was hammered in their class action because 
> their assumptions built into the ink usage calculations were
designed so 
> that even with perfectly "normal" usage the customer still was told to 
> throw away the cartridge when there were /substantial/ amounts of
ink left.
>

James Irelan wrote:
> 
> 
> This thing about carts and Epson... I can think of examples of rights
> on both sides of the question. Yes, Epson has the right to protect
> its R&D investment. On the other hand, there are notable examples of
> hardware products which are not proprietarily linked to consumables.
> Cars, for instance. Car manufacturers are not in the gas business.

If gasoline came in proprietary cartridges, the story would be
different :-).

> You do not have to put GM gas in your Chevy, or wouldn't, if it
> existed.

If GM had proprietary gasoline cartridges, then that would
present an issue.  It wouldn't matter where the gasoline
came from, but if GM patented their cartridges... see the
difference?  It's not the consumable that's patented, it's
the mechanism used to deliver the consumable.

> Cameras. Kokak could have insisted that only Kodak film be
> used in its cameras.

Again, let's not confuse the consumable with the mechanism
used to deliver the consumable.  Suppose Kodak created a
new format, let's call it Disc Film... oh wait, this already
happened :-).

> Record players, CD players... you're not
> limited to CDs made by the player's company.

but CDs *are* made under license from (at least) Philips:

http://www.ip.philips.com/services/?module=IpsLicenseProgram&command=View&id=16&part=2

> What about paper? If
> Epson can squawk about ink, what about paper? Isn't that the same
> type of thing?

Sure.  If Epson printers only accepted proprietary paper
cartridges, it would be.  Again, the difference is between
the consumable material itself and the mechanism used to
deliver it.

> And what about somebody like Cone, who is doing
> something substantially different from what Epson does? Yes, recent
> Epson printers address the b&w issue, but they do it differently from
> what Cone does.

I don't believe Epson can stop Cone from selling non-infringing
inks - Epson only has a claim with respect to the cartridges used
to deliver the ink.

[...]

> And finally, what about licensing? Issue licenses.

What *about* licensing?  What does Epson want in exchange for
licensing the use of  their cartridge technology?  If they had
a monopoly, it's possible they could be forced to license their
cartridge technology - but they don't have a monopoly.

[...]

> I'll write a letter, but even if it gets to Bush I can just see that
> dumb arrogant sonofabitch being all proud of his not knowing anything
> about the issues of some damn inkjet printers- let alone fine art and
> its practitioners- and siding with Epson- it's a big company, after all.

You might want to make sure you're seeing all sides of
the relevant issues before throwing too many stones.

Dana

> From: john dean
> 
> Oh, come on. You don't think Epson could have devised a more 
> accurate system after all these years to measure these carts? 

Given that the actual liquid ink costs just about zero, it's cheaper just to
put in some extra ink than to device a more expensive mechanism that
measures the remaining ink instead of estimating it. The only "cost" is that
people see the extra ink, and ignorantly decide that it was put there for
the purpose of somehow ripping them off. The whole thing is silly.

-- 

Ciao,               Paul D. DeRocco
Paul                mailto:pderocco@...om.com

Forgot to mention that if you use Epson's Colorbase to calibrate your 
printer (R2400 and up), Epson state that you will get up to 5% more ink out 
of your cartridges, because the calibration allows the printer to determine 
more precisely how much ink is needed for printing.

Bob Frost.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bob Frost" <bob@...>

> Given that the actual liquid ink costs just about zero, it's cheaper just 
> to
>put in some extra ink than to device a more expensive mechanism that
>measures the remaining ink instead of estimating it. The only "cost" is 
>that
>people see the extra ink, and ignorantly decide that it was put there for
>the purpose of somehow ripping them off. The whole thing is silly.

Agreed, Paul.

Bob Frost.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Paul D. DeRocco" <pderocco@...>

Actually, it's only silly if EPSON isn't using the "ink-estimation 
advantages" of their anti-competition chip to transparently and falsely 
justify the chip itself, or to base the patenting of the chip upon.

EPSON has chosen to use that "counting feature" as a design and more 
importantly, LEGAL, rationale for the chip itself.

Since EPSON DOES justify the chip on those features... Only an apologist 
for "however I figure out to make money is ok" would fail to see the 
difference.


Bob Frost wrote:
>> Given that the actual liquid ink costs just about zero, it's cheaper just 
>> to
>> put in some extra ink than to device a more expensive mechanism that
>> measures the remaining ink instead of estimating it. The only "cost" is 
>> that
>> people see the extra ink, and ignorantly decide that it was put there for
>> the purpose of somehow ripping them off. The whole thing is silly.
>>     
>
> Agreed, Paul.
>
> Bob Frost.
>
>   


-- 

 
Keith Krebs

"Just some guy," caretaker of the Multiverse's largest EPSON printer 
User Community (highly recommended by Vogon Poets and MegaDodo 
Publications), at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EPSON_Printers/
and  the Multiverse's largest Canon printer User  Community at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Canon-printers
"For the rest of you out there, the secret is to bang the rocks together 
guys"

 

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

MIS discontinuing refillable carts next week?
Just posted on the large format list..
You users better look into it.

The Decider

Part of their problem is the inherent limitations of piezo heads
themselves. A lot of people belive that thermal head technology is the
only solution and that the train has already left the station.

john







--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Editor, P.O.V.
Image Service" <editor@...> wrote:
>
> Actually, it's only silly if EPSON isn't using the "ink-estimation 
> advantages" of their anti-competition chip to transparently and falsely 
> justify the chip itself, or to base the patenting of the chip upon.
> 
> EPSON has chosen to use that "counting feature" as a design and more 
> importantly, LEGAL, rationale for the chip itself.
> 
> Since EPSON DOES justify the chip on those features... Only an
apologist 

> for "however I figure out to make money is ok" would fail to see the 
> difference.
>

>Part of their problem is the inherent limitations of piezo heads
>themselves. A lot of people belive that thermal head technology is the
>only solution and that the train has already left the station.

Hey, it seems only a short while ago that people were saying how much better 
piezo heads were than thermal heads!

bob Frost.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "john dean" <deanwork2003@...>

>
>
> You might want to make sure you're seeing all sides of
> the relevant issues before throwing too many stones.
>
> Boy, I know how important that is, because otherwise you might wind  
> up following the kind of wisdom that has got us where we are  
> today.  Thanks for your insight.
>

James
> 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

With the CFS on my printer all I need to do is look at the bottles to see
exactly how much ink I have left.  The CFS is, IMHO, the best thing that has
happened to inkjet printing. I no longer have to rely on any screwball
algorithms to tell me when to replace a cart. I have the spongeless carts on
my CFS so I intend to keep it in service for a very long time and just buy
bottles of ink as necessary as long as bulk ink remains available.

Just my 2 cents...

Best,
Tom

-----Original Message-----
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tony
Wells
Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2007 6:55 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] I thought the political crap was done with

But are the cartridges then bone dry Bob, or still have 30% left in them, as

has been suggested in earlier posts?

Tony Wells,
A new group member from England.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bob Frost" <bob@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2007 11:37 AM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] I thought the political crap was done with


> and not a single person has mentioned the fact about Epson ripping
> consumers off with the
> nonsense that went on with the printers telling you "ink low replace now"
> when in fact there was >plenty of ink (30%??) left in the carts.
>Even now the various Epson printers give you this warning to replace ink
>when you can still make >many more prints. I'm surprised they have not put
>some kind of warning siren that goes off when >your ink is low. :)


Not sure what printer you are using, but my Epson R2400 gives me much more
useful info than you suggest.

The first warning that I will need a new cart comes when the ink is down to
20% in a cart, and the last when it is down to 5% (and it tells me those
percentages), and when it gets to 0% it stops and requests me to change the
cart.

In between, it gives me messages like the current one, saying that I can
print about 25 more pages like the last one before I need a new cart.

All in all, very helpful reminders.

Bob Frost.


Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
they are often being updated.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.

Please follow these basic guidelines:
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them short.
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Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
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the membership.
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Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files section:
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BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND
"MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU
FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY
DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS,
GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  "OWNER" AND
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POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY
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ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY
THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER
MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
 
Yahoo! Groups Links

That's right, they used to be messy and a headache to clean up after
(Colorspan). But they've always been fast and that is why Canon and HP
kept working on them for delivering pigments.






--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Frost"
<bob@...> wrote:
>
> >Part of their problem is the inherent limitations of piezo heads
> >themselves. A lot of people belive that thermal head technology is the
> >only solution and that the train has already left the station.
> 
> Hey, it seems only a short while ago that people were saying how
much better 

> piezo heads were than thermal heads!
> 
> bob Frost.
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "john dean" <deanwork2003@...>
>

Well said Tyler!

Charles.

----- Original Message ----
From: Tyler Boley <tyler@...>
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, November 5, 2007 9:39:40 PM
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Epson's court victory









  


    
            All of these companies are newbies when it comes to fine photographic

printing, viewed in the larger view of photographic materials. They

see a market and are attempting to provide a solution.

But the market was never like this in the past. Few if any of us,

other than perhaps commercial labs doing quantity, ever accepted a

solution entirely from one company.

I used Agfa Portriga, in Ilford Bromophen with Kodak Benzatriazol

added, Kodak stop bath, unhardened fix I mixed, Kodak Selenium toner,

and on and on. Then some prints were on Pal Print, in Agfa Neutol...

well you get the idea. The artists were the ones messing about,

discovering ways to create extraordinary objects from these products,

never the board rooms. Their names make up our history.

Since when did we so readily accept the notion that product teams from

three manufacturers will determine the subtle nuances of how our

individual art appears?

Sorry, but when it comes to my life's work- I'm the decider.

For better or worse.

Polaroid and Kodak gave materials to the likes of Adams, Weston,

Caponigro, for feedback, and not even for marketing! Who here has been

approached for feedback from any of these companies? I've been doing

this quite a while, and my name out there a bit, my only contact with

Epson was an expression of disappointment I wasn't using their ink,

they didn't even look at the damn print.

My rant for the evening.



Tyler, the decider



--- In DigitalBlackandWhit eThePrint@ yahoogroups. com, "David M. Dorn"

<dmdornctusa@ ...> wrote:

>

> Well, my answer to Epson is simply to buy either Canon or HP the

next time around..... the reviews I have seen on some of the Canon

printers suggest very economical ink usag...or maybe the HP which gets

good reviews for B&W.

> 

> 40 years is in corporate business consulting has tought me me that

you are never "the only game in town".

> 

> David

> 

> 

> 

> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>





    
  

    
    




<!--

hello
  do any of the more experienced users know how long the MIS carts and chips usually last. I was takling to customer service and would like this inf. before I place an order.
  thanks
  Frank 

 __________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

That's true if your talking black and white tray fiber printing. But
color was just the opposite. Kodak owned the world and the choices we
had then were almost non-existant, not to mention impermanent in a way
that makes Epson seem like the savior of color photography.

john


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Charles Becker
<gypyjunior@...> wrote:
>
> Well said Tyler!
> 
> Charles.
> 
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Tyler Boley <tyler@...>
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Monday, November 5, 2007 9:39:40 PM
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Epson's court victory
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>   
> 
> 
>     
>             All of these companies are newbies when it comes to fine
photographic
> 
> printing, viewed in the larger view of photographic materials. They
> 
> see a market and are attempting to provide a solution.
> 
> But the market was never like this in the past. Few if any of us,
> 
> other than perhaps commercial labs doing quantity, ever accepted a
> 
> solution entirely from one company.
> 
> I used Agfa Portriga, in Ilford Bromophen with Kodak Benzatriazol
> 
> added, Kodak stop bath, unhardened fix I mixed, Kodak Selenium toner,
> 
> and on and on. Then some prints were on Pal Print, in Agfa Neutol...
> 
> well you get the idea. The artists were the ones messing about,
> 
> discovering ways to create extraordinary objects from these products,
> 
> never the board rooms. Their names make up our history.
> 
> Since when did we so readily accept the notion that product teams from
> 
> three manufacturers will determine the subtle nuances of how our
> 
> individual art appears?
> 
> Sorry, but when it comes to my life's work- I'm the decider.
> 
> For better or worse.
> 
> Polaroid and Kodak gave materials to the likes of Adams, Weston,
> 
> Caponigro, for feedback, and not even for marketing! Who here has been
> 
> approached for feedback from any of these companies? I've been doing
> 
> this quite a while, and my name out there a bit, my only contact with
> 
> Epson was an expression of disappointment I wasn't using their ink,
> 
> they didn't even look at the damn print.
> 
> My rant for the evening.
> 
> 
> 
> Tyler, the decider
> 
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhit eThePrint@ yahoogroups. com, "David M. Dorn"
> 
> <dmdornctusa@ ...> wrote:
> 
> >
> 
> > Well, my answer to Epson is simply to buy either Canon or HP the
> 
> next time around..... the reviews I have seen on some of the Canon
> 
> printers suggest very economical ink usag...or maybe the HP which gets
> 
> good reviews for B&W.
> 
> > 
> 
> > 40 years is in corporate business consulting has tought me me that
> 
> you are never "the only game in town".
> 
> > 
> 
> > David
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
> >
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>     
>   
> 
>     
>     
> 
> 
> 
> 
> <!--
> 
> #ygrp-mkp{
> border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:14px
0px;padding:0px 14px;}
> #ygrp-mkp hr{
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> 
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> 
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> color:#999;font-size:77%;}
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> #ygrp-sponsor #ov ul{
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> list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;font-size:77%;}
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font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold;color:#628c2a;font-size:100%;line-height:122%;}

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> -->
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
> http://mail.yahoo.com 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

> But are the cartridges then bone dry Bob, or still have 30% left in them, 
> as
> has been suggested in earlier posts?

No, they are not bone dry, because Epson states that this is detrimental to 
the printer. The stated figures for a 2100/2200 (from the Epson Service 
Manual) are

Total ink fill   18.3g +/- 0.5g

Usable ink    14.4g or more

Remaining ink     3.4g or less


I think my R2400 carts are about the same.

Bob Frost.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Tony Wells" <oaksfield@...>

As indeed it was to so many amateurs like myself ....

Tony Wells.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "john dean" <deanwork2003@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2007 9:52 PM
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Epson's court victory



That's true if your talking black and white tray fiber printing. But
color was just the opposite. Kodak owned the world and the choices we
had then were almost non-existant, not to mention impermanent in a way
that makes Epson seem like the savior of color photography.

john

In a message dated 11/6/2007 2:50:33 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
oaksfield@... writes:

But are  the cartridges then bone dry Bob, or still have 30% left in them, as 
has  been suggested in earlier posts?

Tony Wells,
A new group member from  England.



Re: large format cartridges:
 
Inside the plastic cartridge housing is a bag which actually holds the ink.  
As ink is drawn (pumped) from this bag through the valve on the cartridge, a  
certain level of pressure is maintained so that the ink lines will not have 
air  in them. It is always necessary to have some ink in the bag to maintain a  
continuous inkflow, bag to printhead. Thus the bag can never be 'bone dry'. 
30%,  however, is not going to be left in the bag when the printer stops 
printing...  that's a lot of ink. The machine will refuse to do a cleaning cycle with 
 low ink pressure, but will still print or do a nozzle check. If it refuses a 
 cleaning cycle, you know it's very low on  ink.
One way to determine for yourself, is to weigh a full cartridge, and weigh  
an empty one. You will always know how much ink you have left by weight.
 
Richard Massie



************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jay,

 

I've been re-using some refillable carts for years.  I suspect the
spongeless ones will be fine for a long time.  They can even be rinsed out
for re-use with an entirely different ink.  The worst "defect" I see in them
is they sometimes have outlet valves that don't seal when the cart in
re-loaded.  However, even this is just a nuisance, not a fatal problem.  So,
I think stocking up on the carts you need for a printer is a good deal, and
I think inks will be available for a long time. 

 

Paul

www.PaulRoark.com <http://www.paulroark.com/>  

 

 

  _____  

From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Frank Jay
Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2007 12:57 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] life expectancy of MIS carts and chips

 



hello
do any of the more experienced users know how long the MIS carts and chips
usually last. I was takling to customer service and would like this inf.
before I place an order.
thanks
Frank 

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail. <http://mail.yahoo.com> yahoo.com 

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

30% is in the ballpark. I've reset the chips when the printer says they're empty and am able to print 8-10 additional 8x10 in. prints. That includes a lengthly charge/cleaning cycle when the chip is reset.

Walt 

>-----Original Message-----
>From: CorrPro96@... [mailto:CorrPro96@...]
>Sent: Tuesday, November 6, 2007 04:37 PM
>To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [Digital BW] I thought the political crap was done with
>
> 
>In a message dated 11/6/2007 2:50:33 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
>oaksfield@... writes:
>
>But are  the cartridges then bone dry Bob, or still have 30% left in them, as 
>has  been suggested in earlier posts?
>
>Tony Wells,
>A new group member from  England.
>
>
>
>Re: large format cartridges:
> 
>Inside the plastic cartridge housing is a bag which actually holds the ink.  
>As ink is drawn (pumped) from this bag through the valve on the cartridge, a  
>certain level of pressure is maintained so that the ink lines will not have 
>air  in them. It is always necessary to have some ink in the bag to maintain a  
>continuous inkflow, bag to printhead. Thus the bag can never be 'bone dry'. 
>30%,  however, is not going to be left in the bag when the printer stops 
>printing...  that's a lot of ink. The machine will refuse to do a cleaning cycle with 
> low ink pressure, but will still print or do a nozzle check. If it refuses a 
> cleaning cycle, you know it's very low on  ink.
>One way to determine for yourself, is to weigh a full cartridge, and weigh  
>an empty one. You will always know how much ink you have left by weight.
> 
>Richard Massie
>
>
>
>************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as they are often being updated.
>
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
>If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page.
>
>Please follow these basic guidelines:
>- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
>- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership without notice.
>- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the membership.
>- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and Moderators. See ?Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines? in the Files section:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
>
>BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE ?OWNER? AND ?MODERATORS? OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  ?OWNER? AND ?MODERATORS? OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> 
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

Fuji....Agfa.... color paper.... and whatever processor you wanted with anyones chemistry!

Charles.

----- Original Message ----
From: john dean <deanwork2003@...>
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 6, 2007 1:52:12 PM
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Epson's court victory


That's true if your talking black and white tray fiber printing. But
color was just the opposite. Kodak owned the world and the choices we
had then were almost non-existant, not to mention impermanent in a way
that makes Epson seem like the savior of color photography.

john

--- In DigitalBlackandWhit eThePrint@ yahoogroups. com, Charles Becker
<gypyjunior@ ...> wrote:
>
> Well said Tyler!
> 
> Charles.
> 
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Tyler Boley <tyler@...>
> To: DigitalBlackandWhit eThePrint@ yahoogroups. com
> Sent: Monday, November 5, 2007 9:39:40 PM
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Epson's court victory
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All of these companies are newbies when it comes to fine
photographic
> 
> printing, viewed in the larger view of photographic materials. They
> 
> see a market and are attempting to provide a solution.
> 
> But the market was never like this in the past. Few if any of us,
> 
> other than perhaps commercial labs doing quantity, ever accepted a
> 
> solution entirely from one company.
> 
> I used Agfa Portriga, in Ilford Bromophen with Kodak Benzatriazol
> 
> added, Kodak stop bath, unhardened fix I mixed, Kodak Selenium toner,
> 
> and on and on. Then some prints were on Pal Print, in Agfa Neutol...
> 
> well you get the idea. The artists were the ones messing about,
> 
> discovering ways to create extraordinary objects from these products,
> 
> never the board rooms. Their names make up our history.
> 
> Since when did we so readily accept the notion that product teams from
> 
> three manufacturers will determine the subtle nuances of how our
> 
> individual art appears?
> 
> Sorry, but when it comes to my life's work- I'm the decider.
> 
> For better or worse.
> 
> Polaroid and Kodak gave materials to the likes of Adams, Weston,
> 
> Caponigro, for feedback, and not even for marketing! Who here has been
> 
> approached for feedback from any of these companies? I've been doing
> 
> this quite a while, and my name out there a bit, my only contact with
> 
> Epson was an expression of disappointment I wasn't using their ink,
> 
> they didn't even look at the damn print.
> 
> My rant for the evening.
> 
> 
> 
> Tyler, the decider
> 
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhit eThePrint@ yahoogroups. com, "David M. Dorn"
> 
> <dmdornctusa@ ...> wrote:
> 
> >
> 
> > Well, my answer to Epson is simply to buy either Canon or HP the
> 
> next time around..... the reviews I have seen on some of the Canon
> 
> printers suggest very economical ink usag...or maybe the HP which gets
> 
> good reviews for B&W.
> 
> > 
> 
> > 40 years is in corporate business consulting has tought me me that
> 
> you are never "the only game in town".
> 
> > 
> 
> > David
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
> >
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> <!--
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ __
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
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> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>




__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Can you imagine what would have happened if the processor stopped if the
"other" paper was put in to the 'brand name' RA4 developer? The wheels would
have come off.... hehehehehehe

One could even run several sheets of mixed paper in a processor without it
stopping. 

Freedom rang.

Eric


Eric Neilsen Photo
4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9
Dallas, TX 75226
214 827-8301
 
http://ericneilsenphotography.com
SKype ejprinter

-----Original Message-----
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Charles
Becker
Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2007 3:13 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Epson's court victory

Fuji....Agfa.... color paper.... and whatever processor you wanted with
anyones chemistry!

Charles.



----- Original Message ----
From: john dean <deanwork2003@...>
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 6, 2007 1:52:12 PM
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Epson's court victory


That's true if your talking black and white tray fiber printing. But
color was just the opposite. Kodak owned the world and the choices we
had then were almost non-existant, not to mention impermanent in a way
that makes Epson seem like the savior of color photography.

john

--- In DigitalBlackandWhit eThePrint@ yahoogroups. com, Charles Becker
<gypyjunior@ ...> wrote:
>
> Well said Tyler!
> 
> Charles.
> 
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Tyler Boley <tyler@...>
> To: DigitalBlackandWhit eThePrint@ yahoogroups. com
> Sent: Monday, November 5, 2007 9:39:40 PM
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Epson's court victory
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All of these companies are newbies when it comes to fine
photographic
> 
> printing, viewed in the larger view of photographic materials. They
> 
> see a market and are attempting to provide a solution.
> 
> But the market was never like this in the past. Few if any of us,
> 
> other than perhaps commercial labs doing quantity, ever accepted a
> 
> solution entirely from one company.
> 
> I used Agfa Portriga, in Ilford Bromophen with Kodak Benzatriazol
> 
> added, Kodak stop bath, unhardened fix I mixed, Kodak Selenium toner,
> 
> and on and on. Then some prints were on Pal Print, in Agfa Neutol...
> 
> well you get the idea. The artists were the ones messing about,
> 
> discovering ways to create extraordinary objects from these products,
> 
> never the board rooms. Their names make up our history.
> 
> Since when did we so readily accept the notion that product teams from
> 
> three manufacturers will determine the subtle nuances of how our
> 
> individual art appears?
> 
> Sorry, but when it comes to my life's work- I'm the decider.
> 
> For better or worse.
> 
> Polaroid and Kodak gave materials to the likes of Adams, Weston,
> 
> Caponigro, for feedback, and not even for marketing! Who here has been
> 
> approached for feedback from any of these companies? I've been doing
> 
> this quite a while, and my name out there a bit, my only contact with
> 
> Epson was an expression of disappointment I wasn't using their ink,
> 
> they didn't even look at the damn print.
> 
> My rant for the evening.
> 
> 
> 
> Tyler, the decider
> 
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhit eThePrint@ yahoogroups. com, "David M. Dorn"
> 
> <dmdornctusa@ ...> wrote:
> 
> >
> 
> > Well, my answer to Epson is simply to buy either Canon or HP the
> 
> next time around..... the reviews I have seen on some of the Canon
> 
> printers suggest very economical ink usag...or maybe the HP which gets
> 
> good reviews for B&W.
> 
> > 
> 
> > 40 years is in corporate business consulting has tought me me that
> 
> you are never "the only game in town".
> 
> > 
> 
> > David
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
> >
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> <!--
> 
> #ygrp-mkp{
> border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font- family:Arial; margin:14px
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ __
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
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> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>




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Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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I spoke to MIS this morning.  A newsletter explaining their situation 
will be out shortly, possibly today.  It will go to newsletter 
subscribers and also be posted on their website.

Mitch

On Nov 6, 2007, at 2:30 PM, Tyler Boley wrote:

> MIS discontinuing refillable carts next week?
> Just posted on the large format list..
> You users better look into it.
>
> The Decider
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
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It may be that publicity is needed to get this issue more widely known.
Everyone with a printer, particularly an Epson printer, will be affected by
a reduction in competition in aftermarket ink sales.  I've put a draft
letter that I have tried to send to CNN and NPR on my web page at
http://paulroark.com/Epson-ITC-Draft-Letter-2.zip  

I've included in this the legal framework that from my antitrust background
seems a logical way to attack the problem.  Personalize the letter and fire
it off to as many news organizations as you think might listen.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Absolutely.




  Personalize the letter and fire

> it off to as many news organizations as you think might listen.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>