Digital BW, The Print

Hey, I just become a member here because I have some questions. Basically I have been a 
large format shooter that used to print in the darkroom until one day I came across Paul 
Roark's website. I read a lot, took a leap of faith and purchased an C88+ and the mis bulk 
inks and printed a lot of my photographs on Photorag 308g. I can tell you one thing, the 
darkroom is still there, at the other side of the door. I just don't go in there anymore for 
anything else than developing my 8x10 negatives in pyro. I kind of like it that way. I love 
the look of my prints. They have a depth that even silver papers struggle to get. I still 
would like to see the fine detail that I see in the highlights of silver papers but matte 
papers cannot go there as much as they  cannot achieve deep dmaxes. 
So after this little introduction you probably know already where I am headed. Don't you?
I'll tell you anyways! 
I read a lot about this harman glossy paper with alumina, so much so that I am itching to 
try a few prints on that. So mainly,  I like to hear from those of you that are actualized and 
up to date with the world of B&W digital print on glossy papers to advise me of what is a 
good combination of printer & inkset to go with this paper or other papers of the same 
qualities. 
Should I just order photo black for my existing C88+ ( I got two of them, one B&W the 
other with standrd epson inks) or ...What? 
I also read some about BO printing with the epson 1800 and it sounds interesting but I am 
a sucker for smooth tones and am a little afraid I am not going to be satisfied with that 
setting.  Is anyone offering test prints so I can see the output of this setup?

I suppose that is enough of a long question for now.

Hope to hear from you!

Christian

Black Only is limited by print size. The smaller, the
worser. I suspect the main reasons for Black Only are
minimal learning curve and bogus film grain (good for
digicams). 

 Legion offers sample packages... good deals...they
acquired Moab, one of the best (known mostly for
Entrada and Kayenta), and have some distinctive new
papers of their own: eg Colorado Fiber Satine, a
reasonably priced top-tier paper that doesn't suffer
the glittery or "pearl" look of some of the more
expensive air-dried-glossy-emulators.

Using 2200 OEM/QTR with Colorado Fiber Satine, there's
no gloss differential but there is plenty of bronzing
when seen at +/- 20deg angle, and more obvious with
warm tone QTR...gloss isn't uneven, like it is with
most high gloss. Might be even better with Eboni/Black
Only or with newer Epson pigments.

I've yet to really explore Colorado Fiber Satine...the
only real negative at this point is shiney marks at a
certain point on white margins...I think this occurs
when the printer pauses, so the fix may be more RAM
(I've only got 1G).

Epson K3 Photo Black inks on a 3800 in ABW and Innova FibaGloss F-type makes
awesome prints.

The new Harmon Gloss is nice too if you like a completely smooth surface.

But Innova F-type remains unmatched in my book.

Dave.

-- 
Portfolio Slideshow: www.david-keenan.com/portfolio
2007 PAW Gallery: www.david-keenan.com/paw
Web Site: www.david-keenan.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Epson K3 (ABW mode) on either an R2400 or an SP 3800, with one of the 
newest f-type gloss papers for quick top-quality out-of-the-box 
results. I'm currently using a re-branded (by LexJet-Sunset Fiber 
Elite they call it) Innova Ultra-smooth Gloss and getting a dmax of 
2.5 and a finish and tone range I (mostly)love.

Steve Karafyllakis

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "c.olivet" 
<christianolivet@...> wrote:
>
> Hey, I just become a member here because I have some questions. 
Basically I have been a 
> large format shooter that used to print in the darkroom until one 
day I came across Paul 
> Roark's website. I read a lot, took a leap of faith and purchased 
an C88+ and the mis bulk 
> inks and printed a lot of my photographs on Photorag 308g. I can 
tell you one thing, the 
> darkroom is still there, at the other side of the door. I just 
don't go in there anymore for 
> anything else than developing my 8x10 negatives in pyro. I kind of 
like it that way. I love 
> the look of my prints. They have a depth that even silver papers 
struggle to get. I still 
> would like to see the fine detail that I see in the highlights of 
silver papers but matte 
> papers cannot go there as much as they  cannot achieve deep dmaxes. 
> So after this little introduction you probably know already where I 
am headed. Don't you?
> I'll tell you anyways! 
> I read a lot about this harman glossy paper with alumina, so much 
so that I am itching to 
> try a few prints on that. So mainly,  I like to hear from those of 
you that are actualized and 
> up to date with the world of B&W digital print on glossy papers to 
advise me of what is a 
> good combination of printer & inkset to go with this paper or other 
papers of the same 
> qualities. 
> Should I just order photo black for my existing C88+ ( I got two of 
them, one B&W the 
> other with standrd epson inks) or ...What? 
> I also read some about BO printing with the epson 1800 and it 
sounds interesting but I am 
> a sucker for smooth tones and am a little afraid I am not going to 
be satisfied with that 
> setting.  Is anyone offering test prints so I can see the output of 
this setup?

> 
> I suppose that is enough of a long question for now.
> 
> Hope to hear from you!
> 
> Christian
>

Hi Christian,

>... purchased an C88+ and the mis bulk inks and printed ...
> on Photorag 308g. ...
>... my prints. They have a depth that even silver papers struggle to get. 

>I still would like to see the fine detail that I see in the 
>highlights of silver papers but matte papers cannot go there 

Some will dispute this.  Maybe the C88 can't go there quite as well as some
of the others that have smoother highlights. 

I think one of the differences I see between silver printing and inkjet
printing is the extent to which inkjets can attain higher contrast in the
highlights that only bleaching could achieve with a silver print.  The
chemical processes inevitably rolled the highlight values off in a
"shoulder," whereas the inkjet technology produces a straight line curve
right up to the paper white.  Of course, if one likes the rolled-off
highlights, that can be done in Photoshop. 

>... they cannot achieve deep dmaxes. 

The glossy paper measured dmax is terrific.  But due to reflections, the
super-deep blacks are only visually realized when ideal lighting is
available.  All too often reflections mask the deepest blacks and the subtle
details there.  In real world display, the matte papers do rather well due
to their lack of reflections.  Under glass, the differences are usually
rather minor.  Like the highlights, the ability to have higher contrast in
the shadows also makes inkjet dmaxs more realistically useable than the
ultimate silver print dmaxs. 

Your C88 with MIS PKN ink can make quite good glossy prints.  So, you can
try some of the different papers rather easily.  Crane Silver Rag was one of
the early "fiber based" glossy papers that is definitely worth a try.  It
has no OBAs so is a bit warmer than the others.


>... I also read some about BO printing with the epson 1800 and 
> it sounds interesting but I am a sucker for smooth tones ...

The 1800 3-MK highlights are probably better and smoother than the C88.  See
http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/R1800.htm for a general write up of the
approach and http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/R1800-Image-Structure.pdf for
scans of the dot patterns that show relative smoothness.

The 1800 approach can also be used with PKN for glossy paper.  Eboni is
strictly a matte black ink.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Thanks for the answers so far. Paul your points are all valid. I do see more separation of 
tones than in silver papers. I do like that. Also my silver prints suffer from that reflectivity 
you talk about, and it is something I don't really like much. 

So the main thing is the paper. I am looking for something in between matte and gloss, so 
I can get deeper blacks and more definition and sharpness, especially in the highlights. 

I have tried silver rag and did not like the surface at all. To pebblely and shiny and bright.

To illustrate the look that I am trying to get you just have too look at any page of 
Lenswork Magazine. Believe it or not, I truly feel that the prints in that magazine look way 
better than my prints with c88 on photorag. 

Maybe what I want is impossible with inkjet technology. Maybe we just didn't get there yet. 
I don't know. But maybe you guys that print every single day will know more how to advise 
me.

So the main thing is the paper and it's got to be very smooth, closer to glosss than to 
matte, but not so much that it will look like RC.

Thanks again,

Christian


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" <paul.roark@...> 
wrote:

>
> Hi Christian,
> 
> >... purchased an C88+ and the mis bulk inks and printed ...
> > on Photorag 308g. ...
> >... my prints. They have a depth that even silver papers struggle to get. 
> 
> >I still would like to see the fine detail that I see in the 
> >highlights of silver papers but matte papers cannot go there 
> 
> Some will dispute this.  Maybe the C88 can't go there quite as well as some
> of the others that have smoother highlights. 
> 
> I think one of the differences I see between silver printing and inkjet
> printing is the extent to which inkjets can attain higher contrast in the
> highlights that only bleaching could achieve with a silver print.  The
> chemical processes inevitably rolled the highlight values off in a
> "shoulder," whereas the inkjet technology produces a straight line curve
> right up to the paper white.  Of course, if one likes the rolled-off
> highlights, that can be done in Photoshop. 
> 
> >... they cannot achieve deep dmaxes. 
> 
> The glossy paper measured dmax is terrific.  But due to reflections, the
> super-deep blacks are only visually realized when ideal lighting is
> available.  All too often reflections mask the deepest blacks and the subtle
> details there.  In real world display, the matte papers do rather well due
> to their lack of reflections.  Under glass, the differences are usually
> rather minor.  Like the highlights, the ability to have higher contrast in
> the shadows also makes inkjet dmaxs more realistically useable than the
> ultimate silver print dmaxs. 
> 
> Your C88 with MIS PKN ink can make quite good glossy prints.  So, you can
> try some of the different papers rather easily.  Crane Silver Rag was one of
> the early "fiber based" glossy papers that is definitely worth a try.  It
> has no OBAs so is a bit warmer than the others.
> 
>
> >... I also read some about BO printing with the epson 1800 and 
> > it sounds interesting but I am a sucker for smooth tones ...
> 
> The 1800 3-MK highlights are probably better and smoother than the C88.  See
> http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/R1800.htm for a general write up of the
> approach and http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/R1800-Image-Structure.pdf for
> scans of the dot patterns that show relative smoothness.
> 
> The 1800 approach can also be used with PKN for glossy paper.  Eboni is
> strictly a matte black ink.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>

Christian -

Are you aware of Epson¹s new paper release ­ Exhibition Fiber Paper? This
just MAY be what you are looking for, but it IS a bit pricy, and just
becoming available. Check with the folks at http://www.shadesofpaper.com/
and see what they have to say about it.

=Alan R.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

No, I am not aware of much. The last time I looked at papers was about a year ago. It 
seems there is a lot of new stuff coming out and it seems the trend is favoring the look of 
traditional photo paper. That can't be a bad thing, especially when coupled with much 
higher dmax than silver. 

It seems this new epson paper is one of the ones I should be testing soon. I'll get a box of 
that and some  of the Innova and harman. 

One more question. Is the mis photo black superior to whatever comes with the 3800 
printers? Deeper dmax? More neutral? etc.

Thanks

christian



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Alan Reinhart <avr@...> wrote:

>
> 
> Christian -
> 
> Are you aware of Epson¹s new paper release ­ Exhibition Fiber Paper? This
> just MAY be what you are looking for, but it IS a bit pricy, and just
> becoming available. Check with the folks at http://www.shadesofpaper.com/
> and see what they have to say about it.
> 
> =Alan R.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Not any more John.  Best small format B&W prints I've ever made on RC  
(and the new fiber papers) have been with the Epson R1800 using Paul  
Roark's 3-MK workflow, but subsituting the new MIS neutral PK (part#  
RCNTL-4-PKN).  These "3-PKN" prints have that luminous BO quality,  
but without the "grain".   Very smooth highlights and midtones.  QTR  
R1800 3-PKN profiles for use with luster papers (Red River UltraPro  
Satin 2.0 and IJA Microceramic Luster) available here:
http://homepage.mac.com/scho/.Public/R1800_3PKN.zip

Carl Schofield

On Nov 14, 2007, at 9:13 AM, john kelly wrote:

> Black Only is limited by print size. The smaller, the
> worser. I suspect the main reasons for Black Only are
> minimal learning curve and bogus film grain (good for
> digicams). ...snip

Carl,

I would really like to try the 3PK approach using your curves.

I already have my R1800 with 3MK so I have room for 3 PK carts. Just
to test it do you think it would be feasible to use 3 OEM PK carts by
switching the C R B chips from other empty OEMs I have? And by cutting
the plastic positioning "prongs" on the PK OEM carts?

Has anyone redirected the use of OEM in this way before?

Many thanks,

Denis

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Carl Schofield
<list@...> wrote:

>
> Not any more John.  Best small format B&W prints I've ever made on RC  
> (and the new fiber papers) have been with the Epson R1800 using Paul  
> Roark's 3-MK workflow, but subsituting the new MIS neutral PK (part#  
> RCNTL-4-PKN).  These "3-PKN" prints have that luminous BO quality,  
> but without the "grain".   Very smooth highlights and midtones.  QTR  
> R1800 3-PKN profiles for use with luster papers (Red River UltraPro  
> Satin 2.0 and IJA Microceramic Luster) available here:
> http://homepage.mac.com/scho/.Public/R1800_3PKN.zip
> 
> Carl Schofield
> 
> On Nov 14, 2007, at 9:13 AM, john kelly wrote:
> 
> > Black Only is limited by print size. The smaller, the
> > worser. I suspect the main reasons for Black Only are
> > minimal learning curve and bogus film grain (good for
> > digicams). ...snip
>

Hi Christian,

>... the main thing is the paper.

It is a huge factor.  In fact, with the 100% carbon pigment workflows I've
been using it's about all that affects tone.

> I am looking for something in between matte and gloss, 
> so I can get deeper blacks and more definition and sharpness, 
> especially in the highlights. 

In my tests the sharpness is usually limited by the printer.  The smooth
matte papers can be very sharp.  I'm wondering if what you're noticing is
that texture in the paper distracts from the fine detail.  Some like
texture, but I personally want the details captured by my medium format Tech
Pan shots to be what people see -- not paper.

>I have tried silver rag and did not like the surface at all. 
>To pebblely and shiny and bright.

I agree with the pebbly look, as well as the shiny -- but that is why I use
a smooth matte paper.  As to the brightness, it is actually not a brightened
paper.  You'll find some of the cheaper matte and glossy papers are over the
top with OBAs (optical brightening agents).

> To illustrate the look that I am trying to get you just have too 
> look at any page of Lenswork Magazine. 

I have indeed, and I like what I see.  Part of the LesWork look is the
tonality.  See page 3 of
http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/R1800-OBA-Papers.pdf .  I found that with
the R1800 3-MK (three Eboni MK jets, not dilute inks and no color inks)
workflow, a number of papers printed with this tonality.  But this is
strictly a matte paper workflow with Eboni.  See Carl's post with respect to
the 3-PK approach with the 1800.

>Maybe what I want is impossible with inkjet technology. 
>Maybe we just didn't get there yet. 

I have not tried the Harmon paper yet.  For very smooth paper with the new
"fiber based" "glossy" technology, I was impressed with Moab's entry in
terms of the finish.

> So the main thing is the paper and it's got to be very smooth, 
> closer to gloss than to matte, but not so much that it will 
> look like RC.

I think a lot of former silver printers are looking for this "holy grail" of
papers.  I'm no longer sure it's the way to go.  My fear is that if it's
glossy enough to have a glossy-level dmax, it's probably also glossy enough
that I'd see a slightly less than flat presentation when displayed, and I
truly dislike the dry mounting I used to have to do with silver prints.
It's a real pleasure to be able to just tape hang a matte print behind
glazing and never see any "surface" on the print, which to me turns "looking
at a B&W view" into "looking at a piece of paper."  Once a surface becomes
visible, to me it seriously damages the three dimensionality that I want in
my prints.  But then that's just my subjective view.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Denis,

I haven't used OEM carts this way, but it sounds like it should be  
possible if you have a chip resetter and a way to secure the chips to  
the carts.  I think the OEM PK is quite warm and I don't know how the  
density compares to the MIS RCNTL-PKN.  If you don't mind the warm  
tone and you are prepared to adjust the profiles (ink limit and  
linearization) if needed then give it a try.

Carl

On Nov 14, 2007, at 9:40 PM, the_des_bois wrote:

> Carl,
>
> I would really like to try the 3PK approach using your curves.
>
> I already have my R1800 with 3MK so I have room for 3 PK carts. Just
> to test it do you think it would be feasible to use 3 OEM PK carts by
> switching the C R B chips from other empty OEMs I have? And by cutting
> the plastic positioning "prongs" on the PK OEM carts?
>
> Has anyone redirected the use of OEM in this way before?
>
> Many thanks,
>
> Denis
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Carl Schofield
> <list@...> wrote:
>>
>> Not any more John.  Best small format B&W prints I've ever made on RC
>> (and the new fiber papers) have been with the Epson R1800 using Paul
>> Roark's 3-MK workflow, but subsituting the new MIS neutral PK (part#
>> RCNTL-4-PKN).  These "3-PKN" prints have that luminous BO quality,
>> but without the "grain".   Very smooth highlights and midtones.  QTR
>> R1800 3-PKN profiles for use with luster papers (Red River UltraPro
>> Satin 2.0 and IJA Microceramic Luster) available here:
>> http://homepage.mac.com/scho/.Public/R1800_3PKN.zip
>>
>> Carl Schofield
>>
>> On Nov 14, 2007, at 9:13 AM, john kelly wrote:
>>
>>> Black Only is limited by print size. The smaller, the
>>> worser. I suspect the main reasons for Black Only are
>>> minimal learning curve and bogus film grain (good for
>>> digicams). ...snip
>>

There are alot of choices out there.  I am playing with this right now 
too.  
Just to add one more paper to the mix:  I think Innova Semi Matte is 
one of the most under appreciated papers out there.  It has the d max 
of the gloss papers with less of a glossy finish.  As such, I think 
the deepest shadows are less likely to show a gloss differential.  It 
is not as smooth as the Harman or Innova ultra smooth, so this may be 
an issue for you.  I also think the Harman is a bit sharper and does 
separate shadows a little better.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "zonepeter" <zonepeter@...> 
wrote:
>
> There are alot of choices out there.  I am playing with this right now 
> too.  
> Just to add one more paper to the mix:  I think Innova Semi Matte is 
> one of the most under appreciated papers out there.

absolutely, it's the only one so far that has the slightly less than glossy feel of an air dried 
fiber. Perhaps just the slightest bit more gloss would have nailed it.

>  It has the d max 
> of the gloss papers with less of a glossy finish.  As such, I think 
> the deepest shadows are less likely to show a gloss differential.  It 
> is not as smooth as the Harman or Innova ultra smooth, so this may be 
> an issue for you.  I also think the Harman is a bit sharper and does 
> separate shadows a little better.

But it just looks like a gloss to me. It's good, but the noise about it seems a bit too much.
Take away the thick feel by matting it, and it's not terribley different from the standard 
and extremely well priced Hawk Mountain Gloss I've had a bit of experience with.
The Ilford name, the fiber in the title, and this whole alumina mystery seems to be the 
selling points.

The Innova is really unique at this point, and under hyped. Very nice. John Dean has been 
spraying it, and loves it.

Tyler

Do you need to use GLOP for the 3-PKN method?

Kevin Pang

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Carl Schofield 
<list@...> wrote:
>
> Not any more John.  Best small format B&W prints I've ever made on 
RC  
> (and the new fiber papers) have been with the Epson R1800 using 
Paul  
> Roark's 3-MK workflow, but subsituting the new MIS neutral PK 
(part#  
> RCNTL-4-PKN).  These "3-PKN" prints have that luminous BO quality,  
> but without the "grain".   Very smooth highlights and midtones.  
QTR  
> R1800 3-PKN profiles for use with luster papers (Red River 
UltraPro  

> Satin 2.0 and IJA Microceramic Luster) available here:
> http://homepage.mac.com/scho/.Public/R1800_3PKN.zip
> 
> Carl Schofield
> 
> On Nov 14, 2007, at 9:13 AM, john kelly wrote:
> 
> > Black Only is limited by print size. The smaller, the
> > worser. I suspect the main reasons for Black Only are
> > minimal learning curve and bogus film grain (good for
> > digicams). ...snip
>

If you use papers that exhibit objectionable bronzing or gloss  
differential then you could use glop.  I see a little bronzing with  
the luster papers, but enough to make me want to bother with adding  
glop.

Carl

On Nov 15, 2007, at 6:43 AM, kpbgsu wrote:

> Do you need to use GLOP for the 3-PKN method?
>
> Kevin Pang
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Carl Schofield
> <list@...> wrote:
>>
>> Not any more John.  Best small format B&W prints I've ever made on
> RC
>> (and the new fiber papers) have been with the Epson R1800 using
> Paul
>> Roark's 3-MK workflow, but subsituting the new MIS neutral PK
> (part#
>> RCNTL-4-PKN).  These "3-PKN" prints have that luminous BO quality,
>> but without the "grain".   Very smooth highlights and midtones.
> QTR
>> R1800 3-PKN profiles for use with luster papers (Red River
> UltraPro
>> Satin 2.0 and IJA Microceramic Luster) available here:
>> http://homepage.mac.com/scho/.Public/R1800_3PKN.zip
>>
>> Carl Schofield
>>
>> On Nov 14, 2007, at 9:13 AM, john kelly wrote:
>>
>>> Black Only is limited by print size. The smaller, the
>>> worser. I suspect the main reasons for Black Only are
>>> minimal learning curve and bogus film grain (good for
>>> digicams). ...snip
>>

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "the_des_bois"
<thedesbois@...> wrote:
>
> Carl,
> 
> I would really like to try the 3PK approach using your curves.
> 
> I already have my R1800 with 3MK so I have room for 3 PK carts. Just
> to test it do you think it would be feasible to use 3 OEM PK carts by
> switching the C R B chips from other empty OEMs I have? And by cutting
> the plastic positioning "prongs" on the PK OEM carts?
> 
> Has anyone redirected the use of OEM in this way before?
> 
> Many thanks,
> 
> Denis
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Carl Schofield
> <list@> wrote:
> >
> > Not any more John.  Best small format B&W prints I've ever made on
RC  
> > (and the new fiber papers) have been with the Epson R1800 using Paul  
> > Roark's 3-MK workflow, but subsituting the new MIS neutral PK (part#  
> > RCNTL-4-PKN).  These "3-PKN" prints have that luminous BO quality,  
> > but without the "grain".   Very smooth highlights and midtones.  QTR  
> > R1800 3-PKN profiles for use with luster papers (Red River UltraPro  
> > Satin 2.0 and IJA Microceramic Luster) available here:
> > http://homepage.mac.com/scho/.Public/R1800_3PKN.zip
> > 
> > Carl Schofield
> > 
> > On Nov 14, 2007, at 9:13 AM, john kelly wrote:
> > 
> > > Black Only is limited by print size. The smaller, the
> > > worser. I suspect the main reasons for Black Only are
> > > minimal learning curve and bogus film grain (good for
> > > digicams). ...snip
> >
>
I have recently bought an r1800 and ordered carts and PKN inks from
MIS.  I will have spare carts and could fit a set of three as PKN and
another set of three using Eboni at the same time, to save switching
inks. Is this doable and, if so how would I set this up and control
the carts?  I seem to be incapable of getting good prints using QTR on
my 2100 with MIS inks and am concerned that I will not comprehend how
to set up the carts, qidf and quad files.

Do I need a special Eboni for the r1800 or is the Eboni I am currently
using in my 2100/2200 the same or not as suitable?

Cheers,


Colin

Colin,

Eboni is the same ink.  No problem using 3 Eboni and 3 PKN, which is  
what I am doing with my 1800.  If you want to use Paul's 3-MK  
profiles, as is, then you need to put Eboni in the MK, PK, and GLOP  
cartridge positions.  If you also put MIS RCPKN in the C, R, and B  
cartridge positions then you can use my 3-PKN profiles as is for  
printing to RC or gloss/fiber papers.  You are of course free to  
arrange the inks in any positions you wish, but you will then need to  
change the qidf ink position references and reload the profiles.

Carl

On Nov 15, 2007, at 12:12 PM, colingruk wrote:

>>
> I have recently bought an r1800 and ordered carts and PKN inks from
> MIS.  I will have spare carts and could fit a set of three as PKN and
> another set of three using Eboni at the same time, to save switching
> inks. Is this doable and, if so how would I set this up and control
> the carts?  I seem to be incapable of getting good prints using QTR on
> my 2100 with MIS inks and am concerned that I will not comprehend how
> to set up the carts, qidf and quad files.
>
> Do I need a special Eboni for the r1800 or is the Eboni I am currently
> using in my 2100/2200 the same or not as suitable?
>
> Cheers,
>
>
> Colin

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Carl Schofield
<list@...> wrote:
>
> Colin,
> 
> Eboni is the same ink.  No problem using 3 Eboni and 3 PKN, which is  
> what I am doing with my 1800.  If you want to use Paul's 3-MK  
> profiles, as is, then you need to put Eboni in the MK, PK, and GLOP  
> cartridge positions.  If you also put MIS RCPKN in the C, R, and B  
> cartridge positions then you can use my 3-PKN profiles as is for  
> printing to RC or gloss/fiber papers.  You are of course free to  
> arrange the inks in any positions you wish, but you will then need to  
> change the qidf ink position references and reload the profiles.
> 
> Carl
Thanks very much Carl.

My order from MIS just arrived!

Colin

Additional curve files for fiber papers and icc profiles have been added to the file archive 
at the link below.  Curve, create-icc, and .quad files for printing with MIS PK
Neutral ink on Microceramic Luster, Red River Ultrasatin Pro 2.0, Innova
Semimatte Fiber, and Harmon Gloss FB Al in the Epson R1800 printer. Read curve
file headers for ink positions and print at 2880, unidirectional.
http://homepage.mac.com/scho/.Public/R1800_3PKN.zip
 
--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Carl Schofield <list@...> wrote:

>
> Not any more John.  Best small format B&W prints I've ever made on RC  
> (and the new fiber papers) have been with the Epson R1800 using Paul  
> Roark's 3-MK workflow, but subsituting the new MIS neutral PK (part#  
> RCNTL-4-PKN).  These "3-PKN" prints have that luminous BO quality,  
> but without the "grain".   Very smooth highlights and midtones.  QTR  
> R1800 3-PKN profiles for use with luster papers (Red River UltraPro  
> Satin 2.0 and IJA Microceramic Luster) available here:
> http://homepage.mac.com/scho/.Public/R1800_3PKN.zip
> 
> Carl Schofield
> 
> On Nov 14, 2007, at 9:13 AM, john kelly wrote:
> 
> > Black Only is limited by print size. The smaller, the
> > worser. I suspect the main reasons for Black Only are
> > minimal learning curve and bogus film grain (good for
> > digicams). ...snip
>

I have now added optional .quad files for each profile that includes glop (use in the regular 
glop cartridge slot).
http://homepage.mac.com/scho/.Public/R1800_3PKN.zip

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Carl Schofield <list@...> wrote:

>
> If you use papers that exhibit objectionable bronzing or gloss  
> differential then you could use glop.  I see a little bronzing with  
> the luster papers, but enough to make me want to bother with adding  
> glop.
> 
> Carl
> 
> On Nov 15, 2007, at 6:43 AM, kpbgsu wrote:
> 
> > Do you need to use GLOP for the 3-PKN method?
> >
> > Kevin Pang
> >
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Carl Schofield
> > <list@> wrote:
> >>
> >> Not any more John.  Best small format B&W prints I've ever made on
> > RC
> >> (and the new fiber papers) have been with the Epson R1800 using
> > Paul
> >> Roark's 3-MK workflow, but subsituting the new MIS neutral PK
> > (part#
> >> RCNTL-4-PKN).  These "3-PKN" prints have that luminous BO quality,
> >> but without the "grain".   Very smooth highlights and midtones.
> > QTR
> >> R1800 3-PKN profiles for use with luster papers (Red River
> > UltraPro
> >> Satin 2.0 and IJA Microceramic Luster) available here:
> >> http://homepage.mac.com/scho/.Public/R1800_3PKN.zip
> >>
> >> Carl Schofield
> >>
> >> On Nov 14, 2007, at 9:13 AM, john kelly wrote:
> >>
> >>> Black Only is limited by print size. The smaller, the
> >>> worser. I suspect the main reasons for Black Only are
> >>> minimal learning curve and bogus film grain (good for
> >>> digicams). ...snip
> >>
>

I agree about the Harmon.  I like it but could use a little less 
gloss.  It is certainly more glossy then my old darkroom prints.  I 
will use it for some things, though.  I hope people will give the 
Innova Semi Matte a try. I am having good luck without spraying it, 
which I can't say for the Ultrsmooth Gloss.  I am afraid if more 
don't try it, it will go away.

Peter

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Tyler Boley" 
<tyler@...> wrote:
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "zonepeter" 
<zonepeter@> 
> wrote:
> >
> > There are alot of choices out there.  I am playing with this 
right now 
> > too.  
> > Just to add one more paper to the mix:  I think Innova Semi Matte 
is 
> > one of the most under appreciated papers out there.
> 
> absolutely, it's the only one so far that has the slightly less 
than glossy feel of an air dried 
> fiber. Perhaps just the slightest bit more gloss would have nailed 
it.
> 
> >  It has the d max 
> > of the gloss papers with less of a glossy finish.  As such, I 
think 
> > the deepest shadows are less likely to show a gloss 
differential.  It 
> > is not as smooth as the Harman or Innova ultra smooth, so this 
may be 
> > an issue for you.  I also think the Harman is a bit sharper and 
does 
> > separate shadows a little better.
> 
> But it just looks like a gloss to me. It's good, but the noise 
about it seems a bit too much.
> Take away the thick feel by matting it, and it's not terribley 
different from the standard 
> and extremely well priced Hawk Mountain Gloss I've had a bit of 
experience with.
> The Ilford name, the fiber in the title, and this whole alumina 
mystery seems to be the 
> selling points.
> 
> The Innova is really unique at this point, and under hyped. Very 
nice. John Dean has been 

> spraying it, and loves it.
> 
> Tyler
>

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Tyler Boley" 
<tyler@...> wrote:
> The Innova is really unique at this point, and under hyped.

Are you refering to the Innova F Print Gloss Semi Matte?

yup

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Keith R." <kjrslr@...> wrote:

>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Tyler Boley" 
> <tyler@> wrote:
> > The Innova is really unique at this point, and under hyped.
> 
> Are you refering to the Innova F Print Gloss Semi Matte?
>

> It's a real pleasure to be able to just tape hang a matte print behind
> glazing and never see any "surface" on the print, which to me 
turns "looking
> at a B&W view" into "looking at a piece of paper."  Once a surface 
becomes
> visible, to me it seriously damages the three dimensionality that I 
want in
> my prints.  But then that's just my subjective view.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>
I have never liked the Cibachrome prints because of this effect of 
visible surface interfering with the very image. I have an original 
carbon print by Sandy King, and the kind of dimensionality and deep 
feeling of substance you have looking at it even behind glazing is 
unique, taking the carbon tissue dimensionality into account. That's 
my "holy grail" in printing, and so, until now, I find matte papers are 
more close of this "substance".

Juan Riera
www.juanriera.net

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Tyler Boley" 
<tyler@...> wrote:
>
> yup
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@...m, "Keith R." 
<kjrslr@> wrote:
> > Are you refering to the Innova F Print Gloss Semi Matte?
> >
>
That's what I thought, and have to agree.
It's a very fine, under appreciated(hyped) paper that utilizes PK ink
(read higher than mk)dMax on a not so reflective surface(as gloss)at a 
somewhat affordable price. I've only done color with it so far, mainly 
tests, and am getting ready to do some B&W with it.

I've also been using the Innova Semimatte with the new 3PKN workflow  
in an 1800 for B&W prints.  Very nice but as Tyler mentioned earlier  
I would also like to see a bit more gloss - something in between this  
and the Harmon Gloss (a bit too much) would be perfect.  Both of  
these papers need either glop or post printing spraying with  
PrintShield.  The former will reduce gloss slightly and the latter  
increases gloss, but both are very effective in eliminating GD and  
bronzing.  The glop is certainly easier to do with the 1800 and the  
PKN ink during printing and that is the approach I've settled on for  
now.

Carl

On Nov 17, 2007, at 11:13 AM, Keith R. wrote:

> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Tyler Boley"
> <tyler@...> wrote:
>>
>> yup
>>
>> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Keith R."
> <kjrslr@> wrote:
>>> Are you refering to the Innova F Print Gloss Semi Matte?
>>>
>>
> That's what I thought, and have to agree.
> It's a very fine, under appreciated(hyped) paper that utilizes PK ink
> (read higher than mk)dMax on a not so reflective surface(as gloss)at a
> somewhat affordable price. I've only done color with it so far, mainly
> tests, and am getting ready to do some B&W with it.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Carl Schofield <list@...

> wrote:
>
> I've also been using the Innova Semimatte... I would also like to see a bit more gloss - 
something in between this  
> and the Harmon Gloss (a bit too much) would be perfect....

we must be driving the paper makers nuts by now.

sure would be nice it they asked some of us for opinions before commiting to production, 
just a thought.

This whole glop/spray thing seems to be pressing in on our reality using these papers. Has 
anyone tryied them with an HP?

Tyler

> This whole glop/spray thing seems to be pressing in on our reality using these papers. 

Here here. I just don't want to have to use either of them. And I, too have been perplexed 
as to why these companies aren't more in contact with printers on this forum, especially 
those who can knowledgeably articulate what so many of us are truly looking for in these 
papers. It sure isn't hard to figure out if one spends even a half hour reading the posts! ;^)

Sarah

>And I, too have been perplexed
>as to why these companies aren't more in contact with printers on this 
>forum, especially
>those who can knowledgeably articulate what so many of us are truly looking 
>for in these
>papers.

I think the answer probably lies in the fact that the 'so many' that you 
mention are actually 'so few' in real terms??

Bob Frost

 ----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Sarah Renkes" <sagaface@...>

Sarah;

An issue we haven't really come to grips with! Someone mentioned Ilford 
Galerie as a paradigm...I used mostly Ilford MGFB lately, which was 
glossier; Kodak's FB papers were a bit different still; so what 
are "we" looking for? what we're getting is a range, just like we had 
in SG papers; Once the gloss-differential problem is solved (without 
spraying I hope) I think we'll be in excellent shape!

Steve Karafyllakis

>> what so many of us are truly looking for in these 
> papers. It sure isn't hard to figure out if one spends even a half 
hour reading the posts! ;^)

> 
> Sarah
>

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Frost"
<bob@...> wrote:
>
> >And I, too have been perplexed
> >as to why these companies aren't more in contact with printers on this 
> >forum, especially
> >those who can knowledgeably articulate what so many of us are truly
looking 
> >for in these
> >papers.
> 
> I think the answer probably lies in the fact that the 'so many' that
you 
> mention are actually 'so few' in real terms??
> 
> Bob Frost
> 

I'm sure that's the case. It does further beg the question then... who
ARE they running these beta products by? Seem we're a small group in
constant contact.
Tyler

I'm impressed by Legion-Moab's THREE "air dried glossy" types: 

http://www.moabpaper.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWCATS&Category=107

#1 Colorado Fiber Satine, #2 Colorado Fiber Glossy, then #3
ultra-inexpensive DOUBLE SIDED (!) LaSal Photo Luster. 

All have a hint of fiber-like texture, look convincingly air-dried,
show no "glitter" or bogus pearl-like texture. 

There's also high gloss and all sorts of mattes including what appears
to be the old ultra-white double-sided Kayenta, now called LaSal Matte
in a new weight. (LaSal is the name of  some mountains in SE
Utah...camped there recently)

I prefer Colorado Fiber Satine with my 2200/OEM.

Colorado Fiber Glossy's slight extra gloss seems to reduce
differential...the gloss on white borders of both Colorado Fiber
Glossy and LaSal Photo Luster seems sensitive to something in my 2200
transport system, might not be for more modern printers (but for that
I'd be tempted by both). Both Colorado Satine and Gloss are very
faintly more appealing to me than Lasal Gloss, but they're all very
close. 

Legion has a deal on a comprehensive Moab sample pack.



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Tyler Boley"
<tyler@...> wrote:
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Frost"
> <bob@> wrote:
> >
> > >And I, too have been perplexed
> > >as to why these companies aren't more in contact with printers on
this 
> > >forum,

Tyler, They run these products past their wives, children, students, etc.
The vast majority of the products that we used were NEVER really intended
for us. We just happen to get the most out of them. : ) 

 

 Eric

 

Eric Neilsen Photo

4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9

Dallas, TX 75226

214 827-8301

 

http://ericneilsenphotography.com

SKype ejprinter

 

  _____  

From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tyler
Boley
Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2007 1:43 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Damned good glossy prints

 

--- In DigitalBlackandWhit
<mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint%40yahoogroups.com>
eThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Frost"
<bob@...> wrote:
>
> >And I, too have been perplexed
> >as to why these companies aren't more in contact with printers on this 
> >forum, especially
> >those who can knowledgeably articulate what so many of us are truly
looking 
> >for in these
> >papers.
> 
> I think the answer probably lies in the fact that the 'so many' that
you 
> mention are actually 'so few' in real terms??
> 
> Bob Frost
> 

I'm sure that's the case. It does further beg the question then... who
ARE they running these beta products by? Seem we're a small group in
constant contact.
Tyler

 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Steve, Have you or anyone else compared these papers with heat drying vs
just air drying? And posted the results any where? If I needed to change the
gloss quality of a SG paper, I could change the heat under which they dried.


 

Eric Neilsen Photo

4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9

Dallas, TX 75226

214 827-8301

 

http://ericneilsenphotography.com

SKype ejprinter

 

  _____  

From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Steven
Karafyllakis
Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2007 1:14 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Damned good glossy prints

 

Sarah;

An issue we haven't really come to grips with! Someone mentioned Ilford 
Galerie as a paradigm...I used mostly Ilford MGFB lately, which was 
glossier; Kodak's FB papers were a bit different still; so what 
are "we" looking for? what we're getting is a range, just like we had 
in SG papers; Once the gloss-differential problem is solved (without 
spraying I hope) I think we'll be in excellent shape!

Steve Karafyllakis

>> what so many of us are truly looking for in these 
> papers. It sure isn't hard to figure out if one spends even a half 
hour reading the posts! ;^)
> 
> Sarah
>

 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Eric

I sometimes use a hair dryer (has no visible effect on gloss) to 
hasten 'dry-up' if I want to do a quick densitometer reading, but 
I've done no sytematic 'research' into it. I have tried to dry-mount 
the Ultra-smooth after a Premierart coating, and ruined the print 
completely. Dry-mounting before coating was better, but still tricky. 
Heat applied that way killed the gloss, but in a very patchy way. 

Steve Karafyllakis


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "E Neilsen" 
<e.neilsen2@...> wrote:
>
> Steve, Have you or anyone else compared these papers with heat 
drying vs
> just air drying? And posted the results any where? If I needed to 
change the
> gloss quality of a SG paper, I could change the heat under which 
they dried.
> 
> 
>  
> 
> Eric Neilsen Photo
> 
> 4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9
> 
> Dallas, TX 75226
> 
> 214 827-8301
> 
>  
> 
> http://ericneilsenphotography.com
> 
> SKype ejprinter
> 
>  
> 
>   _____  
> 
> From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Steven
> Karafyllakis
> Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2007 1:14 PM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Damned good glossy prints
> 
>  
> 
> Sarah;
> 
> An issue we haven't really come to grips with! Someone mentioned 
Ilford 
> Galerie as a paradigm...I used mostly Ilford MGFB lately, which was 
> glossier; Kodak's FB papers were a bit different still; so what 
> are "we" looking for? what we're getting is a range, just like we 
had 
> in SG papers; Once the gloss-differential problem is solved 
(without 
> spraying I hope) I think we'll be in excellent shape!
> 
> Steve Karafyllakis
> 
> >> what so many of us are truly looking for in these 
> > papers. It sure isn't hard to figure out if one spends even a 
half 

> hour reading the posts! ;^)
> > 
> > Sarah
> >
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Excellent question, I always hit my Portriga prints with some heat
when put on the drying racks, they glossied up and held that gloss
until dry, without it they were much more satin.
Still even with that, the Harman is glossier. I've been working a bit
more with it, and it is a very good paper, but still, not very similar
to any fiber silver prints I have or recall.
I really think that look was inherent in the materials, and something
equally nice, but but with qualities inherent to these new materials,
will be what we adjust to.
Wasn't the gelatin layer on top of the silver image layer?

Tyler

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "E Neilsen"
<e.neilsen2@...> wrote:
>
> Steve, Have you or anyone else compared these papers with heat drying vs
> just air drying? And posted the results any where? If I needed to
change the
> gloss quality of a SG paper, I could change the heat under which
they dried.
> 
> 
>  
> 
> Eric Neilsen Photo
> 
> 4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9
> 
> Dallas, TX 75226
> 
> 214 827-8301
> 
>  
> 
> http://ericneilsenphotography.com
> 
> SKype ejprinter
> 
>  
> 
>   _____  
> 
> From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
Steven

> Karafyllakis
> Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2007 1:14 PM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Damned good glossy prints
> 
>  
> 
> Sarah;
> 
> An issue we haven't really come to grips with! Someone mentioned Ilford 
> Galerie as a paradigm...I used mostly Ilford MGFB lately, which was 
> glossier; Kodak's FB papers were a bit different still; so what 
> are "we" looking for? what we're getting is a range, just like we had 
> in SG papers; Once the gloss-differential problem is solved (without 
> spraying I hope) I think we'll be in excellent shape!
> 
> Steve Karafyllakis
> 
> >> what so many of us are truly looking for in these 
> > papers. It sure isn't hard to figure out if one spends even a half 
> hour reading the posts! ;^)
> > 
> > Sarah
> >
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

I'll try plugging in the old mounting press and see what happens.  
That was always the final step with SG and one of the real joys.

Peter

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "E Neilsen" 
<e.neilsen2@...> wrote:
>
> Steve, Have you or anyone else compared these papers with heat 
drying vs
> just air drying? And posted the results any where? If I needed to 
change the
> gloss quality of a SG paper, I could change the heat under which 
they dried.
> 
> 
>  
> 
> Eric Neilsen Photo
> 
> 4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9
> 
> Dallas, TX 75226
> 
> 214 827-8301
> 
>  
> 
> http://ericneilsenphotography.com
> 
> SKype ejprinter
> 
>  
> 
>   _____  
> 
> From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Steven
> Karafyllakis
> Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2007 1:14 PM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Damned good glossy prints
> 
>  
> 
> Sarah;
> 
> An issue we haven't really come to grips with! Someone mentioned 
Ilford 
> Galerie as a paradigm...I used mostly Ilford MGFB lately, which was 
> glossier; Kodak's FB papers were a bit different still; so what 
> are "we" looking for? what we're getting is a range, just like we 
had 
> in SG papers; Once the gloss-differential problem is solved 
(without 
> spraying I hope) I think we'll be in excellent shape!
> 
> Steve Karafyllakis
> 
> >> what so many of us are truly looking for in these 
> > papers. It sure isn't hard to figure out if one spends even a 
half 

> hour reading the posts! ;^)
> > 
> > Sarah
> >
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

So I plugged in the old mounting press (amazing how dusty it has 
gotten).  Tried a sheet of Innova Semi Matte.  No change.  Then I 
tried a sheet of Harman.  Not sure.  I certainly feels different. 
(like happens with SG)  I think it is a bit more glossy (not what it 
needs)  I don't have 2 identical prints to compare.  Any changes are 
fairly subtle side by side comparison of the same print to be sure.
Interesting stuff.

Peter
--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "E Neilsen" 
<e.neilsen2@...> wrote:
>
> Steve, Have you or anyone else compared these papers with heat 
drying vs
> just air drying? And posted the results any where? If I needed to 
change the
> gloss quality of a SG paper, I could change the heat under which 
they dried.
> 
> 
>  
> 
> Eric Neilsen Photo
> 
> 4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9
> 
> Dallas, TX 75226
> 
> 214 827-8301
> 
>  
> 
> http://ericneilsenphotography.com
> 
> SKype ejprinter
> 
>  
> 
>   _____  
> 
> From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Steven
> Karafyllakis
> Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2007 1:14 PM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Damned good glossy prints
> 
>  
> 
> Sarah;
> 
> An issue we haven't really come to grips with! Someone mentioned 
Ilford 
> Galerie as a paradigm...I used mostly Ilford MGFB lately, which was 
> glossier; Kodak's FB papers were a bit different still; so what 
> are "we" looking for? what we're getting is a range, just like we 
had 
> in SG papers; Once the gloss-differential problem is solved 
(without 
> spraying I hope) I think we'll be in excellent shape!
> 
> Steve Karafyllakis
> 
> >> what so many of us are truly looking for in these 
> > papers. It sure isn't hard to figure out if one spends even a 
half 

> hour reading the posts! ;^)
> > 
> > Sarah
> >
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Peter, I never really noticed too much of a change in the flattening process
or in mounting. I was referring more to the temp of the air on the surface
while going from wet to dry. I am in the process of setting up some test
printers and I 'll do some glossy papers when I have them up and running.
Until then, I am still a matte kind of guy. 

 

 

Eric

 

Eric Neilsen Photo

4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9

Dallas, TX 75226

214 827-8301

 

http://ericneilsenphotography.com

SKype ejprinter

 

  _____  

From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of zonepeter
Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2007 5:02 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Glossy Quality RE: [Digital BW] Re: Damned good glossy prints

 

So I plugged in the old mounting press (amazing how dusty it has 
gotten). Tried a sheet of Innova Semi Matte. No change. Then I 
tried a sheet of Harman. Not sure. I certainly feels different. 
(like happens with SG) I think it is a bit more glossy (not what it 
needs) I don't have 2 identical prints to compare. Any changes are 
fairly subtle side by side comparison of the same print to be sure.
Interesting stuff.

Peter
--- In DigitalBlackandWhit
<mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint%40yahoogroups.com>
eThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "E Neilsen" 
<e.neilsen2@...> wrote:
>
> Steve, Have you or anyone else compared these papers with heat 
drying vs
> just air drying? And posted the results any where? If I needed to 
change the
> gloss quality of a SG paper, I could change the heat under which 
they dried.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Eric Neilsen Photo
> 
> 4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9
> 
> Dallas, TX 75226
> 
> 214 827-8301
> 
> 
> 
> http://ericneilsenp <http://ericneilsenphotography.com> hotography.com
> 
> SKype ejprinter
> 
> 
> 
> _____ 
> 
> From: DigitalBlackandWhit
<mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint%40yahoogroups.com>
eThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhit
<mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint%40yahoogroups.com>
eThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Steven
> Karafyllakis
> Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2007 1:14 PM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhit
<mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint%40yahoogroups.com>
eThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Damned good glossy prints
> 
> 
> 
> Sarah;
> 
> An issue we haven't really come to grips with! Someone mentioned 
Ilford 
> Galerie as a paradigm...I used mostly Ilford MGFB lately, which was 
> glossier; Kodak's FB papers were a bit different still; so what 
> are "we" looking for? what we're getting is a range, just like we 
had 
> in SG papers; Once the gloss-differential problem is solved 
(without 
> spraying I hope) I think we'll be in excellent shape!
> 
> Steve Karafyllakis
> 
> >> what so many of us are truly looking for in these 
> > papers. It sure isn't hard to figure out if one spends even a 
half 
> hour reading the posts! ;^)
> > 
> > Sarah
> >
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Steve, Mounting before spraying is a must for me with the ink jet process;
which can get expensive if you mess up at all. You lose the print, board,
adhesive and most valuable all that time. 

I would think that some tests would need to be done to see how hot it takes
to see a change, if it is indeed possible. I suspect that if you took a
piece of unprinted paper, and cooked it in the press or drying box BEFORE
printing, you'd be able to test the heat without image. Then you can go back
and try it with image content to see what happens to the ink and paper.  IN
my silver days, I rarely tried to increase the gloss. If I needed a glossier
print, I choose a different paper. 

 

 Eric

 

 

Eric Neilsen Photography

4101 Commerce Street

Suite 9

Dallas, TX 75226

http://e.neilsen.home.att.net

http://ericneilsenphotography.com

Skype ejprinter

  _____  

From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Steven
Karafyllakis
Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2007 3:52 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Glossy Quality RE: [Digital BW] Re: Damned good glossy prints

 

Eric

I sometimes use a hair dryer (has no visible effect on gloss) to 
hasten 'dry-up' if I want to do a quick densitometer reading, but 
I've done no sytematic 'research' into it. I have tried to dry-mount 
the Ultra-smooth after a Premierart coating, and ruined the print 
completely. Dry-mounting before coating was better, but still tricky. 
Heat applied that way killed the gloss, but in a very patchy way. 

Steve Karafyllakis

--- In DigitalBlackandWhit
<mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint%40yahoogroups.com>
eThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "E Neilsen" 
<e.neilsen2@...> wrote:
>
> Steve, Have you or anyone else compared these papers with heat 
drying vs
> just air drying? And posted the results any where? If I needed to 
change the
> gloss quality of a SG paper, I could change the heat under which 
they dried.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Eric Neilsen Photo
> 
> 4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9
> 
> Dallas, TX 75226
> 
> 214 827-8301
> 
> 
> 
> http://ericneilsenp <http://ericneilsenphotography.com> hotography.com
> 
> SKype ejprinter
> 
> 
> 
> _____ 
> 
> From: DigitalBlackandWhit
<mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint%40yahoogroups.com>
eThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhit
<mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint%40yahoogroups.com>
eThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Steven
> Karafyllakis
> Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2007 1:14 PM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhit
<mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint%40yahoogroups.com>
eThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Damned good glossy prints
> 
> 
> 
> Sarah;
> 
> An issue we haven't really come to grips with! Someone mentioned 
Ilford 
> Galerie as a paradigm...I used mostly Ilford MGFB lately, which was 
> glossier; Kodak's FB papers were a bit different still; so what 
> are "we" looking for? what we're getting is a range, just like we 
had 
> in SG papers; Once the gloss-differential problem is solved 
(without 
> spraying I hope) I think we'll be in excellent shape!
> 
> Steve Karafyllakis
> 
> >> what so many of us are truly looking for in these 
> > papers. It sure isn't hard to figure out if one spends even a 
half 
> hour reading the posts! ;^)
> > 
> > Sarah
> >
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Tyler (or anyone else): How does the Innova F Semi Matte surface 
compare with the discontinued Epson Semi-Matte?  I very much liked the 
Epson's smooth-but-not-really-glossy surface (and the consequent 
reasonably rich blacks).  But now it's gone, and I'd love to find a 
real fibre paper with the same type of surface.  The Harman FB AI Gloss 
is nice, but a bit too glossy to be ideal, IMHO.

Other nominations also welcomed, natch.

Bill Iverson

Bill,

I never tried the Epson semi matte, but I would recommend trying the 
Innova.  The other older Epson PK papers don't hold a candle to it in 
my opinion. ( I have tried semi gloss and premium luster)
It is less glossy than the Harman glossy, has a slight texture to it 
and is brighter white than the Harman.  It is also slightly less 
sharp.  It is my current favorit paper for PK (along with the Harman.
Someone in this thread has suggested the Moab Colorado Satine, but I 
have never used that.

Peter

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Iverson" 
<wiverson@...> wrote:
>
> Tyler (or anyone else): How does the Innova F Semi Matte surface 
> compare with the discontinued Epson Semi-Matte?  I very much liked 
the 
> Epson's smooth-but-not-really-glossy surface (and the consequent 
> reasonably rich blacks).  But now it's gone, and I'd love to find a 
> real fibre paper with the same type of surface.  The Harman FB AI 
Gloss 

> is nice, but a bit too glossy to be ideal, IMHO.
> 
> Other nominations also welcomed, natch.
> 
> Bill Iverson
>

I think the Innova would be close, but I don't have any prints made on
the Epson to compare.
Jim Doyle has a good sample pack of all of these papers, it's worth
seeing.
Tyler

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Iverson"
<wiverson@...> wrote:

>
> Tyler (or anyone else): How does the Innova F Semi Matte surface 
> compare with the discontinued Epson Semi-Matte?  I very much liked the 
> Epson's smooth-but-not-really-glossy surface (and the consequent 
> reasonably rich blacks).  But now it's gone, and I'd love to find a 
> real fibre paper with the same type of surface.  The Harman FB AI Gloss 
> is nice, but a bit too glossy to be ideal, IMHO.
> 
> Other nominations also welcomed, natch.
> 
> Bill Iverson
>

I agree. I just tried the Harmon and the dynamic range is excellent as
is the dmax and sharpness, but the surface is certainly more slick
than any fiber paper I ever used. To me it looks more like rc than I
would like. The gamut and dmax richer on the Innova F Semi-Matte than
the old Epson semi-matte. I love it, but it ain't cheap. We're gonna
get addicted to this stuff and we gotta get the prices down a little.

john



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Tyler Boley"
<tyler@...> wrote:
>
> I think the Innova would be close, but I don't have any prints made on
> the Epson to compare.
> Jim Doyle has a good sample pack of all of these papers, it's worth
> seeing.
> Tyler
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Iverson"
> <wiverson@> wrote:
> >
> > Tyler (or anyone else): How does the Innova F Semi Matte surface 
> > compare with the discontinued Epson Semi-Matte?  I very much liked
the 
> > Epson's smooth-but-not-really-glossy surface (and the consequent 
> > reasonably rich blacks).  But now it's gone, and I'd love to find a 
> > real fibre paper with the same type of surface.  The Harman FB AI
Gloss 

> > is nice, but a bit too glossy to be ideal, IMHO.
> > 
> > Other nominations also welcomed, natch.
> > 
> > Bill Iverson
> >
>

The new Ilford Galerie Gold Silk Fiber is selling for about half the  
price of the other fiber papers.  I haven't seen any user reports yet  
about this paper, but if it is as good as the others then perhaps we  
will start to see some decline in all fiber prices.

Carl

On Nov 19, 2007, at 11:34 PM, john dean wrote:

> I agree. I just tried the Harmon and the dynamic range is excellent as
> is the dmax and sharpness, but the surface is certainly more slick
> than any fiber paper I ever used. To me it looks more like rc than I
> would like. The gamut and dmax richer on the Innova F Semi-Matte than
> the old Epson semi-matte. I love it, but it ain't cheap. We're gonna
> get addicted to this stuff and we gotta get the prices down a little.
>
> john
>
>
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Tyler Boley"
> <tyler@...> wrote:
>>
>> I think the Innova would be close, but I don't have any prints  
>> made on
>> the Epson to compare.
>> Jim Doyle has a good sample pack of all of these papers, it's worth
>> seeing.
>> Tyler
>>
>> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Iverson"
>> <wiverson@> wrote:
>>>
>>> Tyler (or anyone else): How does the Innova F Semi Matte surface
>>> compare with the discontinued Epson Semi-Matte?  I very much liked
> the
>>> Epson's smooth-but-not-really-glossy surface (and the consequent
>>> reasonably rich blacks).  But now it's gone, and I'd love to find a
>>> real fibre paper with the same type of surface.  The Harman FB AI
> Gloss
>>> is nice, but a bit too glossy to be ideal, IMHO.
>>>
>>> Other nominations also welcomed, natch.
>>>
>>> Bill Iverson
>>>
>>
>

Carl:

I am curious about your use of the neutral MIS inks for glossy B&W 
prints, based on Paul Roark's 3MK process.  Do you use continuous 
flow, or blank cartridges filled with the RC-NTL-4-PKN ink?

Also, since Paul's process calls for an eboni cartridge in the glop 
slot, how do you account for that, if you want to use both the 3MK 
and 3PK sets on the same r1800?  Is it simply a matter of changing 
the cartridge assignments in QTRIP, or something more difficult (or 
even possible at all)?

Or, have all of these questions been answered in another post that I 
have missed.

Thanks much,
Ben


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Carl 
Schofield" <list@...> wrote:
>
> Additional curve files for fiber papers and icc profiles have been 
added to the file archive 
> at the link below.  Curve, create-icc, and .quad files for 
printing with MIS PK
> Neutral ink on Microceramic Luster, Red River Ultrasatin Pro 2.0, 
Innova
> Semimatte Fiber, and Harmon Gloss FB Al in the Epson R1800 
printer. Read curve
> file headers for ink positions and print at 2880, unidirectional.
> http://homepage.mac.com/scho/.Public/R1800_3PKN.zip
>  
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Carl 
Schofield <list@> wrote:
> >
> > Not any more John.  Best small format B&W prints I've ever made 
on RC  
> > (and the new fiber papers) have been with the Epson R1800 using 
Paul  
> > Roark's 3-MK workflow, but subsituting the new MIS neutral PK 
(part#  
> > RCNTL-4-PKN).  These "3-PKN" prints have that luminous BO 
quality,  
> > but without the "grain".   Very smooth highlights and midtones.  
QTR  
> > R1800 3-PKN profiles for use with luster papers (Red River 
UltraPro  

> > Satin 2.0 and IJA Microceramic Luster) available here:
> > http://homepage.mac.com/scho/.Public/R1800_3PKN.zip
> > 
> > Carl Schofield
> > 
> > On Nov 14, 2007, at 9:13 AM, john kelly wrote:
> > 
> > > Black Only is limited by print size. The smaller, the
> > > worser. I suspect the main reasons for Black Only are
> > > minimal learning curve and bogus film grain (good for
> > > digicams). ...snip
> >
>

Ben,

I use MIS empty carts.  The ink assignments are given in the header  
of each curve txt file, but you can rearrange any way you wish.  I am  
currently using Eboni in the PK, MK, Y slots, PKN in the C, R, B  
slots and glop in the glop position.  M has the RCNTL dark gray in  
case I want to do a partitioned 2K profile, but since I haven't used  
it I'll probably just put cleaning fluid there.  When you make these  
ink position changes you must of course edit the profiles accordingly  
and re-load.

Carl

On Dec 7, 2007, at 3:42 PM, bjshazam wrote:

> Carl:
>
> I am curious about your use of the neutral MIS inks for glossy B&W
> prints, based on Paul Roark's 3MK process.  Do you use continuous
> flow, or blank cartridges filled with the RC-NTL-4-PKN ink?
>
> Also, since Paul's process calls for an eboni cartridge in the glop
> slot, how do you account for that, if you want to use both the 3MK
> and 3PK sets on the same r1800?  Is it simply a matter of changing
> the cartridge assignments in QTRIP, or something more difficult (or
> even possible at all)?
>
> Or, have all of these questions been answered in another post that I
> have missed.
>
> Thanks much,
> Ben
>
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Carl
> Schofield" <list@...> wrote:
>>
>> Additional curve files for fiber papers and icc profiles have been
> added to the file archive
>> at the link below.  Curve, create-icc, and .quad files for
> printing with MIS PK
>> Neutral ink on Microceramic Luster, Red River Ultrasatin Pro 2.0,
> Innova
>> Semimatte Fiber, and Harmon Gloss FB Al in the Epson R1800
> printer. Read curve
>> file headers for ink positions and print at 2880, unidirectional.
>> http://homepage.mac.com/scho/.Public/R1800_3PKN.zip
>>
>> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Carl
> Schofield <list@> wrote:
>>>
>>> Not any more John.  Best small format B&W prints I've ever made
> on RC
>>> (and the new fiber papers) have been with the Epson R1800 using
> Paul
>>> Roark's 3-MK workflow, but subsituting the new MIS neutral PK
> (part#
>>> RCNTL-4-PKN).  These "3-PKN" prints have that luminous BO
> quality,
>>> but without the "grain".   Very smooth highlights and midtones.
> QTR
>>> R1800 3-PKN profiles for use with luster papers (Red River
> UltraPro
>>> Satin 2.0 and IJA Microceramic Luster) available here:
>>> http://homepage.mac.com/scho/.Public/R1800_3PKN.zip
>>>
>>> Carl Schofield
>>>
>>> On Nov 14, 2007, at 9:13 AM, john kelly wrote:
>>>
>>>> Black Only is limited by print size. The smaller, the
>>>> worser. I suspect the main reasons for Black Only are
>>>> minimal learning curve and bogus film grain (good for
>>>> digicams). ...snip
>>>
>>

Carl:

Many thanks.  That makes perfect sense.

Follow-up question:  With MIS ceasing sale of spongless blank 
cartridges, any idea where one might find them?

Best,
Ben


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Carl Schofield 
<list@...> wrote:
>
> Ben,
> 
> I use MIS empty carts.  The ink assignments are given in the 
header  
> of each curve txt file, but you can rearrange any way you wish.  I 
am  
> currently using Eboni in the PK, MK, Y slots, PKN in the C, R, B  
> slots and glop in the glop position.  M has the RCNTL dark gray 
in  
> case I want to do a partitioned 2K profile, but since I haven't 
used  
> it I'll probably just put cleaning fluid there.  When you make 
these  
> ink position changes you must of course edit the profiles 
accordingly  
> and re-load.
> 
> Carl
> 
> On Dec 7, 2007, at 3:42 PM, bjshazam wrote:
> 
> > Carl:
> >
> > I am curious about your use of the neutral MIS inks for glossy 
B&W
> > prints, based on Paul Roark's 3MK process.  Do you use continuous
> > flow, or blank cartridges filled with the RC-NTL-4-PKN ink?
> >
> > Also, since Paul's process calls for an eboni cartridge in the 
glop
> > slot, how do you account for that, if you want to use both the 
3MK
> > and 3PK sets on the same r1800?  Is it simply a matter of 
changing
> > the cartridge assignments in QTRIP, or something more difficult 
(or
> > even possible at all)?
> >
> > Or, have all of these questions been answered in another post 
that I
> > have missed.
> >
> > Thanks much,
> > Ben
> >
> >
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Carl
> > Schofield" <list@> wrote:
> >>
> >> Additional curve files for fiber papers and icc profiles have 
been
> > added to the file archive
> >> at the link below.  Curve, create-icc, and .quad files for
> > printing with MIS PK
> >> Neutral ink on Microceramic Luster, Red River Ultrasatin Pro 
2.0,
> > Innova
> >> Semimatte Fiber, and Harmon Gloss FB Al in the Epson R1800
> > printer. Read curve
> >> file headers for ink positions and print at 2880, 
unidirectional.

> >> http://homepage.mac.com/scho/.Public/R1800_3PKN.zip
> >>
> >> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Carl
> > Schofield <list@> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Not any more John.  Best small format B&W prints I've ever made
> > on RC
> >>> (and the new fiber papers) have been with the Epson R1800 using
> > Paul
> >>> Roark's 3-MK workflow, but subsituting the new MIS neutral PK
> > (part#
> >>> RCNTL-4-PKN).  These "3-PKN" prints have that luminous BO
> > quality,
> >>> but without the "grain".   Very smooth highlights and midtones.
> > QTR
> >>> R1800 3-PKN profiles for use with luster papers (Red River
> > UltraPro
> >>> Satin 2.0 and IJA Microceramic Luster) available here:
> >>> http://homepage.mac.com/scho/.Public/R1800_3PKN.zip
> >>>
> >>> Carl Schofield
> >>>
> >>> On Nov 14, 2007, at 9:13 AM, john kelly wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Black Only is limited by print size. The smaller, the
> >>>> worser. I suspect the main reasons for Black Only are
> >>>> minimal learning curve and bogus film grain (good for
> >>>> digicams). ...snip
> >>>
> >>
>

>... Paul's process calls for an eboni cartridge in the glop slot...

That was just one of many setups the 1800 can support.  I assumed many would
want one printer for color and B&W.  So, that was my "default" setup.

The 1800 can support all sorts of alternatives.  Carl is apparently getting
excellent 3-PKN (260 UT-RC Neutral inkset).

On my 1800 I can copy and paste the point lists from one channel to another
as I move the inks around, and it usually prints well.  Apparently some
printers have experienced a need to re-linearize when this is done.

Note that if the RC-PKN is put in for glossy printing, it could also be used
to cool down matte prints.  It's not 100% carbon, of course, but it'll still
be very stable and fine for most uses. 

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Ben,

I bought extras from MIS and I'm hoping I'll be able to get by  
reusing those or if necessary, switch to a CIS.

Carl

On Dec 7, 2007, at 7:01 PM, bjshazam wrote:

> Carl:
>
> Many thanks.  That makes perfect sense.
>
> Follow-up question:  With MIS ceasing sale of spongless blank
> cartridges, any idea where one might find them?
>
> Best,
> Ben
>
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Carl Schofield
> <list@...> wrote:
>>
>> Ben,
>>
>> I use MIS empty carts.  The ink assignments are given in the
> header
>> of each curve txt file, but you can rearrange any way you wish.  I
> am
>> currently using Eboni in the PK, MK, Y slots, PKN in the C, R, B
>> slots and glop in the glop position.  M has the RCNTL dark gray
> in
>> case I want to do a partitioned 2K profile, but since I haven't
> used
>> it I'll probably just put cleaning fluid there.  When you make
> these
>> ink position changes you must of course edit the profiles
> accordingly
>> and re-load.
>>
>> Carl
>>
>> On Dec 7, 2007, at 3:42 PM, bjshazam wrote:
>>
>>> Carl:
>>>
>>> I am curious about your use of the neutral MIS inks for glossy
> B&W
>>> prints, based on Paul Roark's 3MK process.  Do you use continuous
>>> flow, or blank cartridges filled with the RC-NTL-4-PKN ink?
>>>
>>> Also, since Paul's process calls for an eboni cartridge in the
> glop
>>> slot, how do you account for that, if you want to use both the
> 3MK
>>> and 3PK sets on the same r1800?  Is it simply a matter of
> changing
>>> the cartridge assignments in QTRIP, or something more difficult
> (or
>>> even possible at all)?
>>>
>>> Or, have all of these questions been answered in another post
> that I
>>> have missed.
>>>
>>> Thanks much,
>>> Ben
>>>
>>>
>>> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Carl
>>> Schofield" <list@> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Additional curve files for fiber papers and icc profiles have
> been
>>> added to the file archive
>>>> at the link below.  Curve, create-icc, and .quad files for
>>> printing with MIS PK
>>>> Neutral ink on Microceramic Luster, Red River Ultrasatin Pro
> 2.0,
>>> Innova
>>>> Semimatte Fiber, and Harmon Gloss FB Al in the Epson R1800
>>> printer. Read curve
>>>> file headers for ink positions and print at 2880,
> unidirectional.
>>>> http://homepage.mac.com/scho/.Public/R1800_3PKN.zip
>>>>
>>>> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Carl
>>> Schofield <list@> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Not any more John.  Best small format B&W prints I've ever made
>>> on RC
>>>>> (and the new fiber papers) have been with the Epson R1800 using
>>> Paul
>>>>> Roark's 3-MK workflow, but subsituting the new MIS neutral PK
>>> (part#
>>>>> RCNTL-4-PKN).  These "3-PKN" prints have that luminous BO
>>> quality,
>>>>> but without the "grain".   Very smooth highlights and midtones.
>>> QTR
>>>>> R1800 3-PKN profiles for use with luster papers (Red River
>>> UltraPro
>>>>> Satin 2.0 and IJA Microceramic Luster) available here:
>>>>> http://homepage.mac.com/scho/.Public/R1800_3PKN.zip
>>>>>
>>>>> Carl Schofield
>>>>>
>>>>> On Nov 14, 2007, at 9:13 AM, john kelly wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Black Only is limited by print size. The smaller, the
>>>>>> worser. I suspect the main reasons for Black Only are
>>>>>> minimal learning curve and bogus film grain (good for
>>>>>> digicams). ...snip
>>>>>
>>>>
>>

Carl,

Is the ink you are referring to as MIS RCNTL-4-PKN is:

"PKN - Ultratone Photo Black Neutral -
Paul has discovered that, by adding some archival blue pigments to the
Ultratone Photo Black ink, he can achieve a significantly higher Dmax
on gloss and semi-gloss papers. The addition of the blue has only
minor effects on the fade resistance of the ink. As with all Ultratone
inks, no dyes are added." (from MIS webiste) ?

Could the part number have changed to :   	UTPKN-4  	Bulk Ink  	4 oz
Bottle of PKN  	$18.00

I am having a hard time finding the exact ink you are referring to on
MIS's website. Could you direct me to the right one? I understand
there seems to be a difference between PK and PKN.

Many thanks,

Denis Bouchard
www.denisbouchard.ca

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "bjshazam"
<bjshazam@...> wrote:

>
> Carl:
> 
> Many thanks.  That makes perfect sense.
> 
> Follow-up question:  With MIS ceasing sale of spongless blank 
> cartridges, any idea where one might find them?
> 
> Best,
> Ben
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Carl Schofield 
> <list@> wrote:
> >
> > Ben,
> > 
> > I use MIS empty carts.  The ink assignments are given in the 
> header  
> > of each curve txt file, but you can rearrange any way you wish.  I 
> am  
> > currently using Eboni in the PK, MK, Y slots, PKN in the C, R, B  
> > slots and glop in the glop position.  M has the RCNTL dark gray 
> in  
> > case I want to do a partitioned 2K profile, but since I haven't 
> used  
> > it I'll probably just put cleaning fluid there.  When you make 
> these  
> > ink position changes you must of course edit the profiles 
> accordingly  
> > and re-load.
> > 
> > Carl
> > 
> > On Dec 7, 2007, at 3:42 PM, bjshazam wrote:
> > 
> > > Carl:
> > >
> > > I am curious about your use of the neutral MIS inks for glossy 
> B&W
> > > prints, based on Paul Roark's 3MK process.  Do you use continuous
> > > flow, or blank cartridges filled with the RC-NTL-4-PKN ink?
> > >
> > > Also, since Paul's process calls for an eboni cartridge in the 
> glop
> > > slot, how do you account for that, if you want to use both the 
> 3MK
> > > and 3PK sets on the same r1800?  Is it simply a matter of 
> changing
> > > the cartridge assignments in QTRIP, or something more difficult 
> (or
> > > even possible at all)?
> > >
> > > Or, have all of these questions been answered in another post 
> that I
> > > have missed.
> > >
> > > Thanks much,
> > > Ben
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Carl
> > > Schofield" <list@> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> Additional curve files for fiber papers and icc profiles have 
> been
> > > added to the file archive
> > >> at the link below.  Curve, create-icc, and .quad files for
> > > printing with MIS PK
> > >> Neutral ink on Microceramic Luster, Red River Ultrasatin Pro 
> 2.0,
> > > Innova
> > >> Semimatte Fiber, and Harmon Gloss FB Al in the Epson R1800
> > > printer. Read curve
> > >> file headers for ink positions and print at 2880, 
> unidirectional.
> > >> http://homepage.mac.com/scho/.Public/R1800_3PKN.zip
> > >>
> > >> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Carl
> > > Schofield <list@> wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>> Not any more John.  Best small format B&W prints I've ever made
> > > on RC
> > >>> (and the new fiber papers) have been with the Epson R1800 using
> > > Paul
> > >>> Roark's 3-MK workflow, but subsituting the new MIS neutral PK
> > > (part#
> > >>> RCNTL-4-PKN).  These "3-PKN" prints have that luminous BO
> > > quality,
> > >>> but without the "grain".   Very smooth highlights and midtones.
> > > QTR
> > >>> R1800 3-PKN profiles for use with luster papers (Red River
> > > UltraPro
> > >>> Satin 2.0 and IJA Microceramic Luster) available here:
> > >>> http://homepage.mac.com/scho/.Public/R1800_3PKN.zip
> > >>>
> > >>> Carl Schofield
> > >>>
> > >>> On Nov 14, 2007, at 9:13 AM, john kelly wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>>> Black Only is limited by print size. The smaller, the
> > >>>> worser. I suspect the main reasons for Black Only are
> > >>>> minimal learning curve and bogus film grain (good for
> > >>>> digicams). ...snip
> > >>>
> > >>
> >
>

Denis,

I don't mean to answer for Carl, but be sure not to use my original PKN that
is on the MIS "Roark's Lab" page
(http://www.inksupply.com/roarkslab.cfm)(not my doing).

At that page MIS states: 
"PKN - Ultratone Photo Black Neutral -
Paul has discovered that, by adding some archival blue pigments to the
Ultratone Photo Black ink, he can achieve a significantly higher Dmax
on gloss and semi-gloss papers."

I agree.

MIS continues: "The addition of the blue has only minor effects on the fade 
resistance of the ink..."

Well, I wish.  I have not tested these inks.  The ink has about 40% color
pigments in it.  Cyan is very lightfast, so I used as much of that as
possible.  However, to avoid green in the shadows there is also a fair
amount of magenta in it.  Magenta is not very lightfast for pigments -- not
close to good carbon.  (Note that in many cases I use the R800Blue instead
of magenta, but it's not that much better than the magenta.)

As noted above, to make this ink as lightfast as I could, I used as much
cyan as I could relative to magenta.  That makes this ink too cyan for
midtone use.  So, I definitely do not recommend a black only or 3-MK
approach with this original PKN.  It's for the best dmax on older printers
-- nothing else.

What I recommend for the 1800 is the inks I recently mixed for the R260.
These PKN versions have a mix of blue that is appropriate for midtones and
specifically the 3-PK approach on the R1800.  These are at
http://www.inksupply.com/r260_blackandwhite.cfm   Note the "Neutral,"
"Cool," or "Warm" labels at the top of each MIS inkset tabel.  The cartridge
sets are listed in the first 3 tables.  The bulk inks are in the second 3
tables.  

The warm RC inks are pure carbon.  The neutral are going to print medium
warm on many papers in the midtone positions, even though the 100% black is
a bit on the cool side.  That is, the inks tend to print warmer when in
midtone positions.  Carl is using the "neutral" PKN (bulk ink # RC-NTL-4-PK)
for all positions.  

If you want a more straight line response from paper white to 100% black,
use of a Cool PK (bulk # RC-CL-4-PK) in the midtones will help, but continue
with the "neutral" for the 100% black and deep shadows.  You'll have to look
at Carl's curves to see what ink position is used where.  The "Neutral" PK
has about half the blue as the original PKN.  The "Cool" RC PK has about 50%
more blue than the Neutral RC PK, and still less than the original PKN.

Hope this helps.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 

> > >> Carl Schofield wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>> Best small format B&W prints I've ever made on RC
> > >>> (and the new fiber papers) have been with the Epson R1800 
> > >>> using Paul Roark's 3-MK workflow, but subsituting the 
> > >>> new MIS neutral PK (part# RCNTL-4-PKN). These "3-PKN" 
> > >>> prints have that luminous BO quality,
> > >>> but without the "grain". Very smooth highlights and midtones.
> > >>> QTR R1800 3-PKN profiles ... available here:
> > >>> http://homepage.mac.com/scho/.Public/R1800_3PKN.zip
> > >>>
> > >>> Carl Schofield

Bonjour Paul,

Well I don't think Carl will mind. :-) Your answer is very exhaustive
and allows me to understand what goes on behind the scene.

Many thanks for such a detailed and long reply on a Christmas day!

Denis Bouchard
www.denisbouchard.ca


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark"
<paul.roark@...> wrote:
>
> Denis,
> 
> I don't mean to answer for Carl, but be sure not to use my original
PKN that
> is on the MIS "Roark's Lab" page
> (http://www.inksupply.com/roarkslab.cfm)(not my doing).
> 
> At that page MIS states: 
> "PKN - Ultratone Photo Black Neutral -
> Paul has discovered that, by adding some archival blue pigments to the
> Ultratone Photo Black ink, he can achieve a significantly higher Dmax
> on gloss and semi-gloss papers."
> 
> I agree.
> 
> MIS continues: "The addition of the blue has only minor effects on
the fade 
> resistance of the ink..."
> 
> Well, I wish.  I have not tested these inks.  The ink has about 40%
color
> pigments in it.  Cyan is very lightfast, so I used as much of that as
> possible.  However, to avoid green in the shadows there is also a fair
> amount of magenta in it.  Magenta is not very lightfast for pigments
-- not
> close to good carbon.  (Note that in many cases I use the R800Blue
instead
> of magenta, but it's not that much better than the magenta.)
> 
> As noted above, to make this ink as lightfast as I could, I used as much
> cyan as I could relative to magenta.  That makes this ink too cyan for
> midtone use.  So, I definitely do not recommend a black only or 3-MK
> approach with this original PKN.  It's for the best dmax on older
printers
> -- nothing else.
> 
> What I recommend for the 1800 is the inks I recently mixed for the R260.
> These PKN versions have a mix of blue that is appropriate for
midtones and
> specifically the 3-PK approach on the R1800.  These are at
> http://www.inksupply.com/r260_blackandwhite.cfm   Note the "Neutral,"
> "Cool," or "Warm" labels at the top of each MIS inkset tabel.  The
cartridge
> sets are listed in the first 3 tables.  The bulk inks are in the
second 3
> tables.  
> 
> The warm RC inks are pure carbon.  The neutral are going to print medium
> warm on many papers in the midtone positions, even though the 100%
black is
> a bit on the cool side.  That is, the inks tend to print warmer when in
> midtone positions.  Carl is using the "neutral" PKN (bulk ink #
RC-NTL-4-PK)
> for all positions.  
> 
> If you want a more straight line response from paper white to 100%
black,
> use of a Cool PK (bulk # RC-CL-4-PK) in the midtones will help, but
continue
> with the "neutral" for the 100% black and deep shadows.  You'll have
to look
> at Carl's curves to see what ink position is used where.  The
"Neutral" PK
> has about half the blue as the original PKN.  The "Cool" RC PK has
about 50%

> more blue than the Neutral RC PK, and still less than the original PKN.
> 
> Hope this helps.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com 
> 
> > > >> Carl Schofield wrote:
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Best small format B&W prints I've ever made on RC
> > > >>> (and the new fiber papers) have been with the Epson R1800 
> > > >>> using Paul Roark's 3-MK workflow, but subsituting the 
> > > >>> new MIS neutral PK (part# RCNTL-4-PKN). These "3-PKN" 
> > > >>> prints have that luminous BO quality,
> > > >>> but without the "grain". Very smooth highlights and midtones.
> > > >>> QTR R1800 3-PKN profiles ... available here:
> > > >>> http://homepage.mac.com/scho/.Public/R1800_3PKN.zip
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Carl Schofield
>

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark"
<paul.roark@...> wrote:
>
> Denis,
> 
> I don't mean to answer for Carl, but be sure not to use my original
PKN that
> is on the MIS "Roark's Lab" page
> (http://www.inksupply.com/roarkslab.cfm)(not my doing).
> 
> At that page MIS states: 
> "PKN - Ultratone Photo Black Neutral -
> Paul has discovered that, by adding some archival blue pigments to the
> Ultratone Photo Black ink, he can achieve a significantly higher Dmax
> on gloss and semi-gloss papers."
> 
> I agree.
> 
Paul.




In message 88451 you advised me "For a neutral PK print, take a look
at the UT-RC inkset. The PKN is quite nice.
It has some cyan and R800 Blue in it, but I held it down as much as I
could and still have what I considered a good black black only print."

Following this advice I bought 24 Oz of "UTPKN-4", installed them in a
new continuous supply system and used loads of expensive new fiber
papers in testing.

Is this the wrong ink to have used?  

You also said "There are also dilute RC inks for the R260 etc. that
would make a good inkset for the 1800, but I have not gone there." for
this reason I did not buy them. 

Possibly this accounts for the poor results I had from QTR
linearization but I now have photoshop curves to linearize these.

Please supply the link to what I should buy when I have used up all
this stuff.  Perhaps I should just ditch it.

Colin

Hi Colin,

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark"
<paul.roark@...> wrote:
>> ... be sure not to use my original PKN that
>> is on the MIS "Roark's Lab" page
>> (http://www.inksupply.com/roarkslab.cfm)(not my doing).

... because it is too green (too much cyan) for the midtones.

>In message 88451 you advised me "For a neutral PK print, 
>take a look at the UT-RC inkset. The PKN is quite nice.
>It has some cyan and R800 Blue in it, but I held it down 
>as much as I could and still have what I considered a good 
>black only print."

Yes, the RC inks have a blue mix that is appropriate for the midtones, and
they have less blue in them than the original PKN that is too greenish for
midtone use.

>Following this advice I bought 24 Oz of "UTPKN-4", installed 
>them in a new continuous supply system and used loads of 
>expensive new fiber papers in testing.

>Is this the wrong ink to have used? 

It looks like that is what they call the original PKN from this page:
http://www.inksupply.com/roarkslab.cfm  and it will probably be a bit on the
green side.  If you have a newer printer, it may also be too high a load.
The new, fast printers like a lower load PK.

>You also said "There are also dilute RC inks for the R260 etc. 
>that would make a good inkset for the 1800, but I have not gone 
>there." For this reason I did not buy them.

Carl is having such good luck with the RC neutral PK, that I'd recommend
following his lead on this.

http://www.inksupply.com/r260_blackandwhite.cfm is the MIS page that has the
RC inks on it.  See the labels at the tops of each table.  The first three
are the carts, then the bulk inks are listed by their warmth -- warm
(carbon), neutral (what Carl is using), and cool (which might give you a
straighter tone curve if used in the highlights and light midtones --
experiment).

Hope this helps.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Hi Paul,

Are you suggesting a typical two ink QTR partitioned profile with PKN  
and PKC or is there a better way to get the cooler ink into the  
highlights and midtones?

Carl

snip...

>
> http://www.inksupply.com/r260_blackandwhite.cfm is the MIS page  
> that has the
> RC inks on it.  See the labels at the tops of each table.  The  
> first three
> are the carts, then the bulk inks are listed by their warmth -- warm
> (carbon), neutral (what Carl is using), and cool (which might give  
> you a
> straighter tone curve if used in the highlights and light midtones --
> experiment).
>
> Hope this helps.
>
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>

Hi Carl,


>Are you suggesting a typical two ink QTR partitioned profile 
>with PKN and PKC or is there a better way to get the cooler 
>ink into the highlights and midtones?

I'm not sure what will work out the best.  I'd probably try starting a
single cool PK in the first one to come on, with the neutral PKs in the
other 2 of a 3-PK workflow, and see if that allowed me enough cool ink to
pull the warmth hump to wherever I liked it.  With the Eboni-6 inks on the
PA Smooth BW paper, I'm liking a 3 Lab B rise.  On the natural papers , this
starts to get warmer than I like.  So, it's subjective.   But I'd basically
be doing a 3-PK(n) workflow, adjusting the curves as needed.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 

_______
...

>> http://www.inksupply.com/r260_blackandwhite.cfm  is the 
>> MIS page that has the RC inks on it. See the labels at 
>> the tops of each table. ..

Thanks Paul, I'll give this a try.  Do you know what the relative  
firing order is for the C, R, and B channels in the 1800?

Carl

On Dec 26, 2007, at 3:46 PM, Paul Roark wrote:

> Hi Carl,
>
>
>> Are you suggesting a typical two ink QTR partitioned profile
>> with PKN and PKC or is there a better way to get the cooler
>> ink into the highlights and midtones?
>
> I'm not sure what will work out the best.  I'd probably try starting a
> single cool PK in the first one to come on, with the neutral PKs in  
> the
> other 2 of a 3-PK workflow, and see if that allowed me enough cool  
> ink to
> pull the warmth hump to wherever I liked it.  With the Eboni-6 inks  
> on the
> PA Smooth BW paper, I'm liking a 3 Lab B rise.  On the natural  
> papers , this
> starts to get warmer than I like.  So, it's subjective.   But I'd  
> basically
> be doing a 3-PK(n) workflow, adjusting the curves as needed.
>
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>
> _______
> ...
>>> http://www.inksupply.com/r260_blackandwhite.cfm  is the
>>> MIS page that has the RC inks on it. See the labels at
>>> the tops of each table. ..
>

With QTR, you can determine which one comes on first.  Just look at the
graphs or starting numbers.  (I'm on Windows.  I'm not sure what differences
there are in the interface for Mac.)  The tricky part will be seeing how
much adjustment you can make in a curve before artifacts show up.

 

Paul

www.PaulRoark.com <http://www.paulroark.com/>  

 

 

  _____  

From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Carl
Schofield
Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2007 1:01 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re:Damned good glossy prints

 

Thanks Paul, I'll give this a try. Do you know what the relative 
firing order is for the C, R, and B channels in the 1800?

Carl

On Dec 26, 2007, at 3:46 PM, Paul Roark wrote:

> Hi Carl,
>
>
>> Are you suggesting a typical two ink QTR partitioned profile
>> with PKN and PKC or is there a better way to get the cooler
>> ink into the highlights and midtones?
>
> I'm not sure what will work out the best. I'd probably try starting a
> single cool PK in the first one to come on, with the neutral PKs in 
> the
> other 2 of a 3-PK workflow, and see if that allowed me enough cool 
> ink to
> pull the warmth hump to wherever I liked it. With the Eboni-6 inks 
> on the
> PA Smooth BW paper, I'm liking a 3 Lab B rise. On the natural 
> papers , this
> starts to get warmer than I like. So, it's subjective. But I'd 
> basically
> be doing a 3-PK(n) workflow, adjusting the curves as needed.
>
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>
> _______
> ...
>>> http://www.inksuppl <http://www.inksupply.com/r260_blackandwhite.cfm>
y.com/r260_blackandwhite.cfm is the
>>> MIS page that has the RC inks on it. See the labels at
>>> the tops of each table. ..
>

 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]