Digital BW, The Print

My initial testing of the 1400 suggests it's a very good printer.  QTR 
ver. 2.6.1 has Black Only profiles for MIS Eboni and UT-RC PK inks in 
it.  (They are just copies of the 260 profiles.)  They appear to be 
fine.

The Epson driver prints with a fairly straight ramp with the UT-RC inks 
when Color Controls is set to Gamma 2.2.

The 260 ICCs are not quite right, however.  I'll make new ones.  So, 
the Epson driver appears to be slightly different than the 260, but 
it's close.

MIS is NOT supporting this printer with carts yet.  However, the UT-RC 
inks work well and bulk inks are sold in the 260 page at 
http://www.inksupply.com/r260_blackandwhite.cfm 

So, while it's too soon to get any carts from MIS, the 1400 appears to 
be a very fine B&W printer.  I'll be making ICCs and curves for it soon.

Paul     
www.PaulRoark.com

Hi Paul, 

Thanks again for all your hard work.

Do you see the 1400 as being able to support your C-6 inkset?

Scott

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "pr_roark" 
<pr_roark@...> wrote:
>
> My initial testing of the 1400 suggests it's a very good printer.  
QTR 
> ver. 2.6.1 has Black Only profiles for MIS Eboni and UT-RC PK inks 
in 
> it.  (They are just copies of the 260 profiles.)  They appear to be 
> fine.
> 
> The Epson driver prints with a fairly straight ramp with the UT-RC 
inks 
> when Color Controls is set to Gamma 2.2.
> 
> The 260 ICCs are not quite right, however.  I'll make new ones.  
So, 
> the Epson driver appears to be slightly different than the 260, but 
> it's close.
> 
> MIS is NOT supporting this printer with carts yet.  However, the UT-
RC 
> inks work well and bulk inks are sold in the 260 page at 
> http://www.inksupply.com/r260_blackandwhite.cfm 
> 
> So, while it's too soon to get any carts from MIS, the 1400 appears 
to 
> be a very fine B&W printer.  I'll be making ICCs and curves for it 
soon.

> 
> Paul     
> www.PaulRoark.com
>

> Do you see the 1400 as being able to support your C-6 inkset?

I'll be trying it with Eboni-6.  I expect it to be warmer than the 
printers with the large dots.  Then again, Eboni BO is so good, it 
might be that the use of the dilute carbon would be minimal.  With the 
Carbon-6 I, frankly, expect to run into the limits of the surfactant in 
it (Photo Flo).   The 1800 microbanded with Carbon-6. 

Paul    
www.PaulRoark.com

O.K., thanks, BO sounds good. Is that with 1 or 3 K's? And, will PK 
work in the 1400 or just MK?

Thanks again,
Scott

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "pr_roark" 
<pr_roark@...> wrote:
>
> 
> > Do you see the 1400 as being able to support your C-6 inkset?
> 
> I'll be trying it with Eboni-6.  I expect it to be warmer than the 
> printers with the large dots.  Then again, Eboni BO is so good, it 
> might be that the use of the dilute carbon would be minimal.  With 
the 
> Carbon-6 I, frankly, expect to run into the limits of the surfactant 
in 

> it (Photo Flo).   The 1800 microbanded with Carbon-6. 
> 
> Paul    
> www.PaulRoark.com
>

>
>  Is that with 1 or 3 K's? 

My sample of the 1400 needs only a single channel of Eboni -- no 
microbanding.


> And, will PK work in the 1400 or just MK?

Don't know yet.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com  


> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "pr_roark" 
> <pr_roark@> wrote:
> >
> > 
> > > Do you see the 1400 as being able to support your C-6 inkset?
> > 
> > I'll be trying it with Eboni-6.  I expect it to be warmer than 
the 
> > printers with the large dots.  Then again, Eboni BO is so good, 
it 
> > might be that the use of the dilute carbon would be minimal.  
With 
> the 
> > Carbon-6 I, frankly, expect to run into the limits of the 
surfactant 

> in 
> > it (Photo Flo).   The 1800 microbanded with Carbon-6. 
> > 
> > Paul    
> > www.PaulRoark.com
> >
>

I have posted some 1600 dpi scans comparing the 1400 with, for example, 
the 1800.  If my sample is typical, the 1400 could be the best black 
only printer yet.  See

http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/1600dpi-Scans.jpg

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

>... If my sample is typical, the 1400 could be the best black 
> only printer yet.  
> See http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/1600dpi-Scans.jpg

It appears the 1400 tends to microband, at least with Black Only 
printing, if the top border is less than one inch.  I've found some of 
this with the 1800 also, but less so.  I've speculated that the 1.5 
picoliter printers are more sensitive to paper feed accuracy, and that 
they may be best when both sets of rollers are engaged.   

I'm doing a series of cards that require a 1/4" top border, and the 
1400 cannot do it without microbanding, whereas the old 2200 (with 
Carbon-6) has no problem at all with the narrow border.

Paul     
www.PaulRoark.com

Paul,

Do these look like they would work on the oem 1400 carts?:

http://www.inksupply.com/epson_oem_refill_kit.cfm?model=SP#top

--- In 
DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "scott_now_coming" 
<scott_now_coming@...> wrote:
>
> Paul,
> 
> Do these look like they would work on the oem 1400 carts?:
> 
> http://www.inksupply.com/epson_oem_refill_kit.cfm?model=SP#top
>

I've asked MIS about the 1400 carts and their refill kits.

From what I can see, the exit ports are standard OEM Epson.  So, I'm 
guessing the refill kits work -- at least physically.  The problems 
would probably be that the Epson 1400 chip may not be able to be 
reset or replaced, and Eboni in the past has had compatibility issues 
with dyes.

Clearly some sellers are getting 1400 chips.  I have some, but I 
don't know if they are available at retail, and I don't know if they 
will fit on OEM cars.

With respect to the compatibility issue, I think I'd rinse the cart 
with a cleaning fluid or my generic water + glyerol mix, and then a 
couple loads of the replacement ink.

Paul   
www.PaulRoark.com

What about the 'cheapie' CIS unit sold on e-Bay? I see they make one 
for the 1400.

Scott


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "pr_roark" 
<pr_roark@...> wrote:
>
> 
> --- In 
> DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "scott_now_coming" 
> <scott_now_coming@> wrote:
> >
> > Paul,
> > 
> > Do these look like they would work on the oem 1400 carts?:
> > 
> > http://www.inksupply.com/epson_oem_refill_kit.cfm?model=SP#top
> >
> 
> I've asked MIS about the 1400 carts and their refill kits.
> 
> From what I can see, the exit ports are standard OEM Epson.  So, 
I'm 
> guessing the refill kits work -- at least physically.  The problems 
> would probably be that the Epson 1400 chip may not be able to be 
> reset or replaced, and Eboni in the past has had compatibility 
issues 
> with dyes.
> 
> Clearly some sellers are getting 1400 chips.  I have some, but I 
> don't know if they are available at retail, and I don't know if 
they 

> will fit on OEM cars.
> 
> With respect to the compatibility issue, I think I'd rinse the cart 
> with a cleaning fluid or my generic water + glyerol mix, and then a 
> couple loads of the replacement ink.
> 
> Paul   
> www.PaulRoark.com
>

Scott,

The word from MIS is that the refill procedures do not work for the 
1400.  They'll look into it.

> What about the 'cheapie' CIS unit sold on e-Bay? 

I have 2 of the cheap SuperJetUSA units running -- just fine as a 
matter of fact.  The instructions are a bit minimal, but it's 
probably fairly obvious how to prime the system by holding the cart 
upside down and use a syringe with a modified bottom fill adapter on 
it or other fitting.  Just pull the air out and let the ink fill the 
cart from the filled ink tank.  The ink level appears to be somewhat 
critical.  I put spacers under the tank to be sure the ink level is 
not below the head (resulting in a reverse syphon that pulls air into 
the system).

At this time I'm not at a position to recommend any glossy printing 
options, but I have MIS color pigs with Eboni in a 260 and it makes a 
very nice every-day printer.  The MIS colors did not profile well 
with my color profiling software, so I just made a curves layer that 
does a reasonable job and is easy to use.  That approach would make a 
very good casual color + very good B&W matte printing solution.

I'll take a look at B&W solutions that can do matte and glossy.  It's 
too early so see if glop is also appropriate.  In light of my feeling 
that a cheap eBay CIS may be the best way to use Epson desktop 
printers with third party inks, I'll be looking at a system that can 
do matte and glossy without having to change inks.

Paul    
www.PaulRoark.com

Thanks Paul,

For all your hard work and sharing your knowledge. :>)

Scott

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "pr_roark" 
<pr_roark@...> wrote:
>
> Scott,
> 
> The word from MIS is that the refill procedures do not work for the 
> 1400.  They'll look into it.
> 
> > What about the 'cheapie' CIS unit sold on e-Bay? 
> 
> I have 2 of the cheap SuperJetUSA units running -- just fine as a 
> matter of fact.  The instructions are a bit minimal, but it's 
> probably fairly obvious how to prime the system by holding the cart 
> upside down and use a syringe with a modified bottom fill adapter 
on 
> it or other fitting.  Just pull the air out and let the ink fill 
the 
> cart from the filled ink tank.  The ink level appears to be 
somewhat 
> critical.  I put spacers under the tank to be sure the ink level is 
> not below the head (resulting in a reverse syphon that pulls air 
into 
> the system).
> 
> At this time I'm not at a position to recommend any glossy printing 
> options, but I have MIS color pigs with Eboni in a 260 and it makes 
a 
> very nice every-day printer.  The MIS colors did not profile well 
> with my color profiling software, so I just made a curves layer 
that 
> does a reasonable job and is easy to use.  That approach would make 
a 
> very good casual color + very good B&W matte printing solution.
> 
> I'll take a look at B&W solutions that can do matte and glossy.  
It's 
> too early so see if glop is also appropriate.  In light of my 
feeling 
> that a cheap eBay CIS may be the best way to use Epson desktop 
> printers with third party inks, I'll be looking at a system that 
can 

> do matte and glossy without having to change inks.
> 
> Paul    
> www.PaulRoark.com
>

Hi Paul and Scott,

I have been reading from the sidelines on the 1400, and Paul has 
given me some great advice. Since I am new at this, Paul, I need you 
to dumb this down so I can get my head around it all.

I have a set of replacement carts for my 1400 and have done ok with 
black only printing, and keeping the color carts as they came with 
the printer.

I downloaded qtr, and the settings on the program just use the black 
cartridge for the 1400. I am ready to buy ink, but I dont know what 
to do.

So... do I stay with one cart black and white printing,or would 
multiple black carts be more sucessful? And if so, should i buy a 
set of 6 different blacks? and finally, is there a setting in QTR to 
allow you to use the different blacks?

Thanks!

"niteowl1004" <cohen.scott@...> wrote:
...
> I have a set of replacement carts for my 1400 and have done ok with 
> black only printing, and keeping the color carts as they came with 
> the printer.
> 
> I downloaded qtr, and the settings on the program just use the black 
> cartridge for the 1400. I am ready to buy ink, but I dont know what 
> to do.
> 
> So... do I stay with one cart black and white printing,or would 
> multiple black carts be more sucessful? And if so, should i buy a 
> set of 6 different blacks? and finally, is there a setting in QTR to 
> allow you to use the different blacks?
> 
> Thanks!

At this time MIS has no carts for the 1400.  So, to use any MIS inks 
one would have to use a CIS.  These are available from MIS at 
http://www.inksupply.com/cfs_1400.cfm or on eBay.  Additionally, I have 
2 SuperJetUSA (eBay) units running well.

It's also too early for me to say what will work best on the 1400.  I 
know that Eboni black only -- using only the Black/K position -- works 
well, as long as the print has at least 1" borders on top and bottom.

I assume from my 260 experience that MIS color pigments work well in 
the printer, but my profiling software did not do a very good job with 
its relatively limited color patch approach.  I made a set of curves 
that work well enough for me, however.  (I do not hold myself out as a 
professional color printer.)  I have not done this for the 1400.

I also know that the MIS UT-RC B&W inks for the 260 work well in the 
1400, at least for matte papers.  I simply have not tested the glossy 
papers yet.  See http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/R260.htm .  The 1400 
in many respects is just a large 260.

In light of the decreasing availability of empty third party cartridges 
for Epson printers, I will explore an inkset approach that will allow 
all types of paper without having to change ink.  Changing ink with a 
CIS is not easy.

So, the bottom line is that it's just too early for me to have a 
recommendation or for MIS to have any pre-packaged B&W solution 
available.  If I had room for only one printer, the 1400 with a CIS and 
MIS Eboni black and color pigments might well be what I'd do.  This is 
how my 260 is set up.  But this approach will not print glossy papers.

Hope this helps.

Paul   
www.PaulRoark.com

Thanks Paul,

Since i already have empty refillable carts, I could buy the MIS bulk 
ink and refill them myself i think.

So at this point, would you leave the other positions alone and just 
print with the black only option? Then I guess i would only have to buy 
the ebony 6 black...

I read your article on repalcing the yellow positon with light grey to 
help the midtones, which led me to think the quality would be better if 
i used additional channels with the other MIS inkset.

Sorry for all the questions....when i get real confused, i go in my 
darkroom, open up a bottle of fixer, and remember why i want to go 
digital...

Scott

Scott,

> Since i already have empty refillable carts, I could buy 
> the MIS bulk ink and refill them myself i think.

Yes.  Have you found a good source for empty 1400 carts and chips?


> So at this point, would you leave the other positions alone 
> and just print with the black only option? 

I'm not sure about Eboni's compatibility with Claria inks.  If they 
are not compatible, they'll mix on the pad and you'll notice some 
clogging.

By the way, the 1400 makes very nice black only prints with MIS UT-RC 
PKN -- which also is sold as a PK-Cool and may be more neutral on 
most glossy papers.

> Then I guess i would only have to buy the ebony 6 black...

All MIS Eboni is the same.  So, you could buy Eboni-6 K (Eboni) or if 
you have any from a previous MIS inkset, that'll do also.

> I read your article on repalcing the yellow positon with 
> light grey to help the midtones, which led me to think the 
> quality would be better if 
> i used additional channels with the other MIS inkset.

I'm not sure what article that is, but I suspect I was talking about 
eh 2400.  So far, the 1400 seems to be printing rather well with less 
than all channels firing.  


> Sorry for all the questions....when i get real confused, i go in my 
> darkroom, open up a bottle of fixer, and remember why i want to go 
> digital...

It's just a little early in my 1400 exploration to know which 
direction I'll go with it.  I'm starting to lean toward a single B&W 
installation that can do carbon warm to cool, matte and glossy, 
including glop.

Paul    
www.PaulRoark.com

"The great paper chase" only lists matte papers, and most of the 
discussion here continues that -- even that glossy papers often 
permit a higher dMax.

I must admit that I've been printing ONLY on matte papers ... but now 
am interested in finding a glossy paper -- for both my black and 
whites, and (dare I say) for my color as well.  I must confess that I 
don't even know where to start, but could throw a dart.  Any more 
promising suggestions?

Arthur Fink

	A r t h u r  .  F i n k  .  P h o t o g r a p h y
	-------------------------------------------------
	Ten New Island Avenue         . land 207.766.5722
	Peaks Island, Maine 04108     . cell 207.615.5722
	www.arthurfinkphoto.com  . af@...

	More dance images  www.f64gallery.com/arthur.html
                    www.arthurfinkphoto.com/BatesShow2007

	Problems with my e-mail address?  My provider has
	been returning some mail as if it were spam!  You
	can address me at    arthurfinkphoto@...

Arthur,

I would start with the new Baryta coated papers.  My personal favorite 
is the Ilford Gold Fiber Silk.  It is slightly warm tone, very smooth 
and not too much gloss.  The Harmon Gloss is whiter and too glossy for 
my taste.  Another paper I have had good luck iwht is the Innova 
Fibepeint Satin (semi matte).  It has a bit more texture and less gloss 
but is also a wonderful paper. Whiteness is between the other 2.

I really like the extra Dmax of these papers and the dynamic range it 
allows, although lately I have been wondering if I shouldn't wander 
back to the matte papers for the depth and 3 demensionality they 
provide.  Oh well, its always something.

Anyway, the Ilford is much cheaper than the others, so it might be a 
good place to start.

Peter

I really like the Harmon gloss. Closest thing I have ever found to 
silver. I have looked at them all. Very expensive, but beautiful 
surface and amazingly high d-max and sharpness. For an RC type paper I 
have been using Epson Premium Semigloss for years. It is much cheaper 
and looks really good drymounted. Saying that though, the Harmon is 
better if you can afford it. One way I have kept cost down is that I 
have taken and really like Clayton Jones' suggestion of making test 
prints on 1/4 letter sized pieces. Never thought that would work, but 
it does wonderfully and saves a bundle on ink and paper.

Scott Jones Photography
http://www.ScottJonesPhoto.com

I second your comment on the Harmon Gloss..I find it outstanding for my b/w
and also feel it works well for Color.the Ilford Gold is a good choise as
well.  It has a bit too much texture for my taste but is substantially
cheaper than the Harmon Fiber.    Another nice one is the Epson Exhibition
Fiber.  Again it has some Texture as well.

 

Paul

From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Scott
Jones
Sent: Saturday, May 10, 2008 3:43 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Glossy papers

 

I really like the Harmon gloss. Closest thing I have ever found to 
silver. I have looked at them all. Very expensive, but beautiful 
surface and amazingly high d-max and sharpness. For an RC type paper I 
have been using Epson Premium Semigloss for years. It is much cheaper 
and looks really good drymounted. Saying that though, the Harmon is 
better if you can afford it. One way I have kept cost down is that I 
have taken and really like Clayton Jones' suggestion of making test 
prints on 1/4 letter sized pieces. Never thought that would work, but 
it does wonderfully and saves a bundle on ink and paper.

Scott Jones Photography
http://www.ScottJonesPhoto.com

 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I agree on the comments about texture. All the papers except the Harmon 
have different quantity and quality of texture, but the Harmon seems to 
be unique in having a creamy smooth surface (which I like and favor).

Scott Jones Photography
http://www.ScottJonesPhoto.com

> "Scott Jones" <peanutdogs@...> wrote:
>
> One way I have kept cost down is that I 
> have taken and really like ... suggestion of making test 
> prints on 1/4 letter sized pieces. 
>

I have gone the opposite route. I am making proofs at 16x20 up to 
24x30.

For image capture I am using 4x5 film and a Canon 1DsII digital. I 
got tired of never really **seeing** what is in my images when I look 
at my prints. Especially compared to the detail that I uncover when 
zooming in on the monitor. 

Plus you really need to see the proofs big to catch and correct all 
of the smaller "errors" that don't show up in smaller prints. ;>)

So, I loaded up my Epson 7600 with some cheap ink for proofing. Then 
I bought 9 rolls of Espon Premium Semi-Gloss with the "buy 2, get 1 
free" promo. 

The net cost for the Semi-Gloss 170 - a very nice paper - is $57 for 
a roll of 24"x100'.  That comes to around $.28 per squre foot, as 
cheap as Epson Enhanced Matte in 24" rolls. 

 A 16x20 is 2.2 sq ft, or about $.62 for the paper. A 24x30 is 5 sq 
ft, which comes to $1.40. Then figure your ink cost in ml and add in 
the cost for 1.2 to 1.5 ml of ink per square foot.  My ink cost is a 
little over $.02 per ml.  

***********************************************************

For final output I use Epson K3 Vivid inks on a 7880 and one of the 
newer premium fiber papers.  I have tried most of them - they are all 
great papers. My preference, in order, is:

1. Epson Exhibition Fiber.
2. Harmon Glossy FB Ai
3. Hahnemuhle Fine Art Baryta
4. Innova Fibaprint Ultrasmooth Gloss
5. Ilford Galerie Gold Fibre Silk


But I must say, you could re-order that list at random and find 
someone who agrees with the order. We are really getting down to 
small personal preferences at this point.

I would recommend doing essentially what I have done for most people: 
Use Epson Premium Semi-Matte, Premium Luster, or Premium Semi-Gloss 
for proofs.  Then pick 1 or 2 of the premium papers for final output. 

We certainly have a lot of great tools available today.  Hard to 
belive it was just 10 years ago that the Epson Photo EX 
with "Archival Matte" was state of the art. ;>)

Best,
Michael

Hi Scott,

Where did you find the re-fillable carts for the 1400? Can you post a 
link?

Thanks,
Scott

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "niteowl1004" 
<cohen.scott@...> wrote:
>
> Thanks Paul,
> 
> Since i already have empty refillable carts, I could buy the MIS 
bulk 
> ink and refill them myself i think.
> 
> So at this point, would you leave the other positions alone and 
just 
> print with the black only option? Then I guess i would only have to 
buy 
> the ebony 6 black...
> 
> I read your article on repalcing the yellow positon with light grey 
to 
> help the midtones, which led me to think the quality would be 
better if 

> i used additional channels with the other MIS inkset.
> 
> Sorry for all the questions....when i get real confused, i go in my 
> darkroom, open up a bottle of fixer, and remember why i want to go 
> digital...
> 
> Scott
>

Hello Paul and Scott,

I just wanted to jump in and say im very intrested in this topic 
since I just bought a 1400.

There are a few sources for 1400 refillable cartridges with auto 
reset chips. This ebay auction is one: 

http://cgi.ebay.com/Empty-refillable-cartridges-for-Epson-stylus-1400-
print_W0QQitemZ200222790929QQcmdZViewItem

I dont know if all catridges and chips are like this but if you read 
the fine print its an all or nothing deal.....you have to use all 6 
cartridges it says so just putting one catridge in wont work.

Im waiting also to see where Scott got his cartridges from because im 
either going to get a set or a CIS for my printer.

Thanks Paul for your work on the 1400 I cant wait to see what all you 
come up with for it.

James


--- In 
DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "scott_now_coming" 
<scott_now_coming@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Scott,
> 
> Where did you find the re-fillable carts for the 1400? Can you post 
a 
> link?
> 
> Thanks,
> Scott
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "niteowl1004" 
> <cohen.scott@> wrote:
> >
> > Thanks Paul,
> > 
> > Since i already have empty refillable carts, I could buy the MIS 
> bulk 
> > ink and refill them myself i think.
> > 
> > So at this point, would you leave the other positions alone and 
> just 
> > print with the black only option? Then I guess i would only have 
to 
> buy 
> > the ebony 6 black...
> > 
> > I read your article on repalcing the yellow positon with light 
grey 
> to 
> > help the midtones, which led me to think the quality would be 
> better if 
> > i used additional channels with the other MIS inkset.
> > 
> > Sorry for all the questions....when i get real confused, i go in 
my 
> > darkroom, open up a bottle of fixer, and remember why i want to 
go 

> > digital...
> > 
> > Scott
> >
>

Hi Arthur,

Start here:

http://www.itsupplies.com/cgi-
bin/itsupplies.storefront/EN/Catalog/1870

Crane makes a nice one, too:

http://www.itsupplies.com/cgi-
bin/itsupplies.storefront/482706660f0267aa27404200c14c05de/Catalog/155
1

These two papers use Photo Black as opposed to Matte Black. he finish 
is like a silver gelatin print.

If you're looking for an actual "glossy" finish, I don't know what to 
suggest.

Scott

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Arthur Fink 
<af@...> wrote:
>
> "The great paper chase" only lists matte papers, and most of the 
> discussion here continues that -- even that glossy papers often 
> permit a higher dMax.
> 
> I must admit that I've been printing ONLY on matte papers ... but 
now 
> am interested in finding a glossy paper -- for both my black and 
> whites, and (dare I say) for my color as well.  I must confess that 
I 

> don't even know where to start, but could throw a dart.  Any more 
> promising suggestions?
> 
> Arthur Fink
> 
> 	A r t h u r  .  F i n k  .  P h o t o g r a p h y
> 	-------------------------------------------------
> 	Ten New Island Avenue         . land 207.766.5722
> 	Peaks Island, Maine 04108     . cell 207.615.5722
> 	www.arthurfinkphoto.com  . af@...
> 
> 	More dance images  www.f64gallery.com/arthur.html
>                     www.arthurfinkphoto.com/BatesShow2007
> 
> 	Problems with my e-mail address?  My provider has
> 	been returning some mail as if it were spam!  You
> 	can address me at    arthurfinkphoto@...
>

>... Paul ... I cant wait to see what all you 
> come up with for it.

I'm trying to get some feedback from MIS, among others, to help me 
prioritize the goals.

Here are a few of the assumptions I'm working with:

First, I think the market will move more toward CIS type units, as I 
think they can be made such that they do not infringe any Epson 
patents.  As a practical matter, they are available.  They do raise 
the bar a bit in the sense of a barrier to using third party inks, 
but that same characterisic may also make them less of a concern to 
Epson.  I'm sure Epson does a cost/benefit analysis in deciding what 
to target.  I'm hoping they see it in their interest to allow a 
small, dedicated B&W market to use this printer. 

With this assumption, a dedicated B&W inkset must "do it all" (within 
reason) without changing inks -- matte, glossy, neutral, and warm.

Second, while the fixed Lab A (cyan-magenta mix) of the older 
variable-tone inksets like UT2 and UT7 were a frustration to me, that 
limitation greatly simplifies profiling and accomplishing the other 
goals.  Additionally, the automated profiling that I'd hoped would 
happen with the UT-3D inkset didn't work as well as I'd hoped.  As 
such, I'm inclined to move back to a variable tone approach that uses 
a carbon channel and a cool channel and simply varies the Lab B by 
moving a slider (in effect and in QTR) that alters the ratio of the 
channels.

In short, I think an easier to profile variable tone inkset like the 
UT2/UT7 is a better direction than a 3D approach.

I'm leaning toward glop being in the Y position.

While it may not be something I'll be using for most of my printing, 
I understand the appeal of the new glossy papers.  They (as well as 
matte papers) must print as well as possible with an Epson driver 
workflow.  (My preferred Eboni black only does just fine with QTR.)

So, that's where I'm tentatively heading.  So far, so good.

Paul     
www.PaulRoark.com

It would be interesting to find a heat baked glossy finish for the ink jet papers. I don't have a dryer anymore.

gar

*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********

On 5/11/08 at 2:43 PM scott_now_coming wrote:

>Hi Arthur,
>
>Start here:
>
>http://www.itsupplies.com/cgi-
>bin/itsupplies.storefront/EN/Catalog/1870
>
>Crane makes a nice one, too:
>
>http://www.itsupplies.com/cgi-
>bin/itsupplies.storefront/482706660f0267aa27404200c14c05de/Catalog/155
>1
>
>These two papers use Photo Black as opposed to Matte Black. he finish 
>is like a silver gelatin print.
>
>If you're looking for an actual "glossy" finish, I don't know what to 
>suggest.
>
>Scott
>
>--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Arthur Fink 
><af@...> wrote:
>>
>> "The great paper chase" only lists matte papers, and most of the 
>> discussion here continues that -- even that glossy papers often 
>> permit a higher dMax.
>> 
>> I must admit that I've been printing ONLY on matte papers ... but 
>now 
>> am interested in finding a glossy paper -- for both my black and 
>> whites, and (dare I say) for my color as well.  I must confess that 
>I 
>> don't even know where to start, but could throw a dart.  Any more 
>> promising suggestions?
>> 
>> Arthur Fink
>> 
>> 	A r t h u r  .  F i n k  .  P h o t o g r a p h y
>> 	-------------------------------------------------
>> 	Ten New Island Avenue         . land 207.766.5722
>> 	Peaks Island, Maine 04108     . cell 207.615.5722
>> 	www.arthurfinkphoto.com  . af@...
>> 
>> 	More dance images  www.f64gallery.com/arthur.html
>>                     www.arthurfinkphoto.com/BatesShow2007
>> 
>> 	Problems with my e-mail address?  My provider has
>> 	been returning some mail as if it were spam!  You
>> 	can address me at    arthurfinkphoto@...
>>
>
>
>
>------------------------------------
>
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--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "pr_roark" 
<pr_roark@...> wrote:

Paul;


>
>>  a dedicated B&W inkset must "do it all" (within 
> reason) without changing inks -- matte, glossy, neutral, and warm.
> 

A bit more difficult to do with only 6 channels, yes? but still:MK 
PKN LKN might give you a 2K glossy and 3k matte (using PKN as a 
darker LKN for matte papers) without neutralizing toners, leaving a 
glop channel, and two range-extending toner channels for sepia and 
cool tones. Or some variation like that. If we only had a true blue, 
and a durable orange. Speaking of which, have you heard anything 
about the new R1900 orange? I'm hoping that's a new pig not just a 
blend of existing colors. I suppose MIS will eventually have an 
equivalent?

I too look forward to seeing where you go with this- my older R1800 
is starting to sound pretty funky...soon I'll be back to one R1800 
workhorse for matte, sepia matte, glossy and the glop also.

Steve karafyllakis


>

Steve,

> >  a dedicated B&W inkset must "do it all" (within 
> > reason) without changing inks -- matte, glossy, neutral, and warm.
> > 
> 
> A bit more difficult to do with only 6 channels, yes?

Offsetting that is a 1.5 pl drop and a printer that can print 
smoothly (no microbanding) with only one jet.  In some respects this 
1400 blows away the old 1800

Currently my "UT14a" has Eboni, Pk, Pkn, Lk, Lkn, and glop in it.  
This prints with a rather straight curve with no adjustments and 
Color Controls set at gamma 1.8.

With NCA set, the 2 PKs hit about 2.15 on Kirkland glossy. The low 
ink limits even with NCA require 2 PKs for the Epson driver (not so 
QTR).

I'm probably going to omit sepia, leaving that as a option some could 
put into the Y position.  I think really good glossy, using Glop, may 
be more important to most people given the baryta coatings, etc. that 
are coming out.

By the way, the Epson 1400 driver appears to include a color 
management engine of sorts.  ICCs can be inserted in the driver, 
including QTR's RGB ICCs -- though I have not got them working right 
yet.  If we can find the right settings or whatever to get QTR's ICCs 
to work with the driver, it opens these B&W workflows to non-Adobe 
applications.  (Nice -- also nice that Epson seems to listen.)

> Speaking of which, have you heard anything 
> about the new R1900 orange? 

I assume it's a new pigment and MIS will have a clone as needed.

Paul   
www.PaulRoark.com

Paul, have you been able to redirect the drain hose to the outside of the 1400 not to fill up the inside pads?
I did that with my 220 and it has worked like a charm for now 2 years.
Thanks.
PO

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: pr_roark 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Monday, May 12, 2008 2:08 PM
  Subject: [Digital BW] Re: 1400


  Steve,

  > > a dedicated B&W inkset must "do it all" (within 
  > > reason) without changing inks -- matte, glossy, neutral, and warm.
  > > 
  > 
  > A bit more difficult to do with only 6 channels, yes?

  Offsetting that is a 1.5 pl drop and a printer that can print 
  smoothly (no microbanding) with only one jet. In some respects this 
  1400 blows away the old 1800

  Currently my "UT14a" has Eboni, Pk, Pkn, Lk, Lkn, and glop in it. 
  This prints with a rather straight curve with no adjustments and 
  Color Controls set at gamma 1.8.

  With NCA set, the 2 PKs hit about 2.15 on Kirkland glossy. The low 
  ink limits even with NCA require 2 PKs for the Epson driver (not so 
  QTR).

  I'm probably going to omit sepia, leaving that as a option some could 
  put into the Y position. I think really good glossy, using Glop, may 
  be more important to most people given the baryta coatings, etc. that 
  are coming out.

  By the way, the Epson 1400 driver appears to include a color 
  management engine of sorts. ICCs can be inserted in the driver, 
  including QTR's RGB ICCs -- though I have not got them working right 
  yet. If we can find the right settings or whatever to get QTR's ICCs 
  to work with the driver, it opens these B&W workflows to non-Adobe 
  applications. (Nice -- also nice that Epson seems to listen.)

  > Speaking of which, have you heard anything 
  > about the new R1900 orange? 

  I assume it's a new pigment and MIS will have a clone as needed.

  Paul 
  www.PaulRoark.com 



   

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Just to complicate things, here in NZ, Epson sells a different model, the 1410, which has different cartridges - so, even if this is an excellent BW solution, we may be out of luck for compatible cartridges over here.

Why do they vary their models so much? Maybe to make it harder to get third party cartridges?

On the bright side, I get clogs daily with OEM inks, let alone MIS inks!

Richard

--
http://smallfield.vze.com 

   "When we try to pick out anything by itself, we find it 
   hitched to everything else in the universe."
   --John Muir (1838-1914)

I bought my carts at inketsoutlet.com I dont know if they are any good,
I just ordered my first inks, I will let you all know how it goes

Scott

I have to ask...what is glop?

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "niteowl1004" 
<cohen.scott@...> wrote:
>
> 
> I have to ask...what is glop?
>

Gloss optimizer, hence, 'GLOP'. :~)

Scott

Gulp... and I just recently got an 1800! Haven't even found carts for
it yet so I load them with Eboni. Mild buyer's remorse coming on.. !

Been very happy with BO Eboni single cart in my 220. Can I expect to
get comparable DMax when I get the 3 carts loaded with Eboni in my 1800?

Thanks!

Paul

<pr_roark@...> wrote:

>
> 
> I have posted some 1600 dpi scans comparing the 1400 with, for example, 
> the 1800.  If my sample is typical, the 1400 could be the best black 
> only printer yet.  See
> 
> http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/1600dpi-Scans.jpg
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>

Oops.. make that "so I can load them with Eboni".

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Whiting"
<paulmwhiting@...> wrote:
>
> Gulp... and I just recently got an 1800! Haven't even found carts for
> it yet so I load them with Eboni. Mild buyer's remorse coming on.. !
> 
> Been very happy with BO Eboni single cart in my 220. Can I expect to
> get comparable DMax when I get the 3 carts loaded with Eboni in my 1800?
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Paul
> 
> <pr_roark@> wrote:
> >
> > 
> > I have posted some 1600 dpi scans comparing the 1400 with, for
example, 

> > the 1800.  If my sample is typical, the 1400 could be the best black 
> > only printer yet.  See
> > 
> > http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/1600dpi-Scans.jpg
> > 
> > Paul
> > www.PaulRoark.com
> >
>

Paul;
> 
> Offsetting that is a 1.5 pl drop and a printer that can print 
> smoothly (no microbanding) with only one jet. > 

Yep, I knew they could do it; Epson made cheap printers before and 
after the R1800 that didn't microband, why they allowed this one to 
be set up like that I can't quite figure. And I do think it was a 
matter of setup in the driver-when I started fooling with the Epson 
Adjustment Program I managed to get rid of the microbanding, with the 
exception of a few scratches on the first and last 1" of print area. 
I haven't mentioned this before because I don't know what I'm doing 
enough to guide anyone, and there seems to be a great deal of 
potential for screwing up the printer. 

> Currently my "UT14a" has Eboni, Pk, Pkn, Lk, Lkn, and glop in it.  
> This prints with a rather straight curve with no adjustments and 
> Color Controls set at gamma 1.8.
> 
> With NCA set, the 2 PKs hit about 2.15 on Kirkland glossy. The low 
> ink limits even with NCA require 2 PKs for the Epson driver (not so 
> QTR).
> 
> I'm probably going to omit sepia, leaving that as a option some 
could 
> put into the Y position.  I think really good glossy, using Glop, 
may 
> be more important to most people given the baryta coatings, etc. 
that 
> are coming out.

Undoubtedly more important for most printers, though sepia is very 
popular around here. Florida may be a red or blue state this election 
cycle, but Palm Beach County will always be BEIGE. My one concession 
to sofa-matching I guess...
> 

Steve Karafyllakis

...
> Been very happy with BO Eboni single cart in my 220. Can I expect to
> get comparable DMax when I get the 3 carts loaded with Eboni in 
> my 1800?
> 

The 1800 3MK gets about as good a dmax as any of them, and the best 
I've ever seen on Arches un-coated.  After all, you have a huge load of 
ink you can deliver if the paper can take it.

The 3MK is a fine workflow.  But, like most technological things, there 
is progress.  Of course, from Epson's perspective, part of that 
progress is keeping third party inks out.  So, the 1800 carts are far 
more available than the 1400 carts.  As far as I know, no one has a 
resetter for any of the Claria printer chips either, and those auto-
reset chips are a bit of a nuisance -- except with a CIS.

Paul   
www.PaulRoark.com

> >... I think really good glossy, using Glop, may 
> > be more important to most people given the baryta 
> > coatings, etc.  that  are coming out.
> 
> Undoubtedly more important for most printers, though sepia is very 
> popular around here...

Frankly, if I were printing a lot of true, dark sepia tone, I'd either 
use an OEM K3 or blended B&W ink mix that included Epson M and Y (not 
my favorite MIS pigments).  In practice, what I find is that MIS carbon 
on some papers is warm enough for me, though I have not seen a good 
carbon that can actually reach the true sepia tones.

Paul  
www.PaulRoark.com

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "pr_roark"
<pr_roark@...>

That's good to hear, Paul, guess I was getting a little concerned
about these micro-banding horror stories. And doesn't it stand to
reason you'd get smoother transitions with three carts? I don't know,
I'm very new at this. But again, I've been very happy with my single
cart setup for my R220.

What was holding me back was thinking that MIS carts weren't available
but several posts mentioned them being on the MIS website, and sure
enough they are in fact listed. I finally called them today, talked
with a live person (very friendly, by the way) and she explained that
their pre-filled with Eboni carts are not threatened under the suit
because Epson makes nothing like them, therefore no competition. So
I'm going to finally order some and try them out. And, they are
refillable using their new refill kit. I asked if I could put MIS
cleaning fluid in the color positions, which is what I have in my
R220. That way I get a very low-cost cleaning on power up. The MIS
person said we'd have to ask you on that score.

Thanks for the helpful comments, we all appreciate your hard work on
this cutting edge field!

Paul

> The 1800 3MK gets about as good a dmax as any of them, and the best 
> I've ever seen on Arches un-coated.  After all, you have a huge load of 
> ink you can deliver if the paper can take it.
> 
> The 3MK is a fine workflow.  But, like most technological things, there 
> is progress.  Of course, from Epson's perspective, part of that 
> progress is keeping third party inks out.  So, the 1800 carts are far 
> more available than the 1400 carts.  As far as I know, no one has a 
> resetter for any of the Claria printer chips either, and those auto-
> reset chips are a bit of a nuisance -- except with a CIS.
> 
> Paul   
> www.PaulRoark.com
>

>... I was getting a little concerned
> about these micro-banding horror stories.

With a magnifying glass you can still see occasional microbanding on 
most printers.  But they keep getting better, and most don't look at 
prints with a microscope.

> ... MIS ... explained that their pre-filled with Eboni carts 
> are not threatened under the suit
> because Epson makes nothing like them, therefore no competition.

I hope they are right in their analysis.  However, if the carts are 
imported and infringe on Epson patents, the supply of them might just 
dry up.

> So I'm going to finally order some and try them out. 
> And, they are refillable using their new refill kit.

Don't use a bottom-fill system.  I'm quite sure they'll send you 
carts that have a stopper in them that is easily removed for re-
filling with a syringe and bulk ink.  That is when you'll also find 
out if any of the carts leak.  If they leak out the outlet when you 
remove the stopper and refill them, I'd order a new, replacement 
cart.  Not only is a leaking cart a mess, but it also is likely to 
get an air bubble in it when refilled.  This will cause a bad nozzle 
check and may be hard to clear.  Sadly, a certain percentage of the 
spongeless carts for the 1800 (and similar) have imperfect poppet 
valves in them.

The other weak point in the products is the chip.  It's not a bad 
idea to have a set of replacement chips.

> I asked if I could put MIS
> cleaning fluid in the color positions, which is what I have in my
> R220. That way I get a very low-cost cleaning on power up. 

Yes, but what MIS calls "UC Base" is the better way to go because it 
has more glycerol in it, which will help keep the pads moist.  I now 
use my C6 base for this purpose.  See the "clear base" formula at 
http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Ink-Mixing.pdf I've mixed it with 
the UC base with no problems.

Good luck with the setup.

Paul     
www.PaulRoark.com

I think this is the refill kit the MIS rep meant, I'm not sure, but I
suspect so: http://www.inksupply.com/epson_oem_refill_kit.cfm

Unfortunately it appears to be bottom-fill system you warn of. Do you
know of any other system, or is the only remaining option to go CFS?

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "pr_roark"
<pr_roark@...> wrote:
 
> Don't use a bottom-fill system.  I'm quite sure they'll send you 
> carts that have a stopper in them that is easily removed for re-
> filling with a syringe and bulk ink.  That is when you'll also find 
> out if any of the carts leak.  If they leak out the outlet when you 
> remove the stopper and refill them, I'd order a new, replacement 
> cart.  Not only is a leaking cart a mess, but it also is likely to 
> get an air bubble in it when refilled.  This will cause a bad nozzle 
> check and may be hard to clear.  Sadly, a certain percentage of the 
> spongeless carts for the 1800 (and similar) have imperfect poppet 
> valves in them.

Checked my old packing slip... apparently what I use in my R220 is
MIS-FLUID-4. Is that what you mean? or something else...

I'll download your formula, thanks for that tip@

Paul

> Yes, but what MIS calls "UC Base" is the better way to go because it 
> has more glycerol in it, which will help keep the pads moist.  I now 
> use my C6 base for this purpose.  See the "clear base" formula at 
> http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Ink-Mixing.pdf I've mixed it with 
> the UC base with no problems.

> Good luck with the setup.
> 
> Paul     
> www.PaulRoark.com
>

> With a magnifying glass you can still see occasional microbanding on 
> most printers.  But they keep getting better, and most don't look at 
> prints with a microscope.

I find that with an R1800 with 3MK I sometimes get micro-banding on
certain papers while the same image on another one will not have it.
Could it be related to different dot gains on different coatings? I've
never ever seen any banding using Somerset Enhanced. Sadly it does not
work for all images.


> 
> Yes, but what MIS calls "UC Base" is the better way to go because it 
> has more glycerol in it, which will help keep the pads moist.  I now 
> use my C6 base for this purpose.  See the "clear base" formula at 
> http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Ink-Mixing.pdf I've mixed it with 
> the UC base with no problems.
> 

Could one use MIS "UC Base" as a base to dilute MIS MK Eboni? Are they
compatible? Should be since the MIS UC R1800 colors use Eboni in the
black MK position right?

Thanks,

Denis

> I think this is the refill kit the MIS rep meant, ...
>  http://www.inksupply.com/epson_oem_refill_kit.cfm
> 
> Unfortunately it appears to be bottom-fill system you
> warn of. Do you know of any other system, ...

I think the carts MIS will ship will be refillable.  Wait and be 
sure.  There should be a removable stopper in the top of the 
reservoir.  Sometimes this is flush with the top and a jeweler's 
screwdriver is needed to slide down beside it and pry it out.

Assuming this, you need an $18 bottle of Eboni. Eboni is the same for 
all MIS inksets.  http://www.inksupply.com/eb6.cfm is one page that 
has it.  You need a chip resetter: 
http://inksupply.com/epson_inkjet_cartridge_chip_resetter.cfm 
and a syringe with a blunt needle.  
See http://inksupply.com/accessory.cfm?action=find&sub_cat=1 for 
accessories, in general.

When the printer tells you the carts are about empty, remove them, 
fill all three reservoirs with Eboni, using the 10 cc syringe and the 
bottle of Eboni, reset the chips, and re-install the cart.  That's 
about it.  Very easy.  Expect to get some ink on your hands and do 
this where ink will not stain anything.  Clean the syringe and set it 
aside for next time. 

Paul  
www.PaulRoark.com

Paul,

The refill kit you are linking to is the kit for EPSON OEM Carts. I've
used it with great success but it will not work on after-market carts,
sponge or spongeless.

What you need is simply some syringes, needles, bottom fill adapter,
SK168 chip reseter... all of which can be found on this page:

http://www.inksupply.com/accessory.cfm?action=find&sub_cat=1

I use 10CC syringes (I started with 3), the 1.5" blunt needles, bottom
fill adapter and the chip reseter, plus the Eboni ink in bulk and the
UC base in bulk. 

You might want to look at these pages:

http://inksupply.com/epson_inkjet_cartridge_chip_resetter.cfm

http://www.inksupply.com/c82refill.cfm

Not easy site to navigate and find stuff... but it's all there.

Good luck!

Denis  

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Whiting"
<paulmwhiting@...> wrote:

>
> I think this is the refill kit the MIS rep meant, I'm not sure, but I
> suspect so: http://www.inksupply.com/epson_oem_refill_kit.cfm
> 
> Unfortunately it appears to be bottom-fill system you warn of. Do you
> know of any other system, or is the only remaining option to go CFS?
>

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "the_des_bois" 
<thedesbois@...> wrote:
>
> 
> > With a magnifying glass you can still see occasional 
> > microbanding on most printers.  But they keep getting 
> > better, and most don't look at prints with a microscope.
> 
> I find that with an R1800 with 3MK I sometimes get micro-banding on
> certain papers while the same image on another one will not have it.

> Could it be related to different dot gains on different coatings? 

Could be.  I'm sure there are lots of variables.  I suspect that the 
head alignment is also optimized for a specific thickness.

The only place I have a problem is within one inch of the top and 
bottom edges of the paper.  So, I usually print with wide margins.


> 
> > 
> > Yes, but what MIS calls "UC Base" is the better way to go 
> > because it has more glycerol in it, which will help keep
> > the pads moist.  I now use my C6 base for this purpose.  
> > See the "clear base" formula at 
> > http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Ink-Mixing.pdf 

 
> Could one use MIS "UC Base" as a base to dilute MIS MK Eboni?

I tried it.  Don't bother.  It's rough printing, very warm, and has 
too low a specific gravity.  Don't bother with Glop either.  It's 
great for the UT type inks and MIS color pigments, but not Eboni.

UC base is not what is used in the R1800 color inks.  MIS sells it as 
a dilutant for those inks, but it's the wrong one.  Among other 
things the bronzing is terrible with it.  Glop is the best thing to 
use for UT and MIS color pigments, but, again, not Eboni.  Finding 
the best base for Eboni was a major part of the Eboni-6 effort, and 
MIS will not sell the base we found that works.  For 3.5 pico liter 
printers, however, Carbon-6 and its generic base works fine.

Paul  
www.PaulRoark.com

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "the_des_bois"
<thedesbois@...> wrote:

Yes, thank you Denis, I'm familiar with the items you mention. That's
what I use with great success on my R220 when doing BO printing with
one cartridge. I have all the items you mention... have Eboni ink in
the black position and cleaning fluid in the others. 

Do you mean to say this refill cart works _only_ on OEM carts? So it
won't work on the UTBO carts at the bottom of this page?
http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Ink-Mixing.pdf  I was told today by
MIS that these UTBO carts are refillable - but how, I wonder.

The spongeless carts alone are no longer available, right? Sorry, but
I continue to get very confused by all this!

How about this option: I buy three OEM glop carts, empty them, and
refill those using that kit. That way I don't have color compatibility
issues when using new ink. Problem with this approach is that Paul
cautions against this bottom-fill method.

Paul

>
> Paul,
> 
> The refill kit you are linking to is the kit for EPSON OEM Carts. I've
> used it with great success but it will not work on after-market carts,
> sponge or spongeless.
> 
> What you need is simply some syringes, needles, bottom fill adapter,
> SK168 chip reseter... all of which can be found on this page:
> 
> http://www.inksupply.com/accessory.cfm?action=find&sub_cat=1
> 
> I use 10CC syringes (I started with 3), the 1.5" blunt needles, bottom
> fill adapter and the chip reseter, plus the Eboni ink in bulk and the
> UC base in bulk. 
> 
> You might want to look at these pages:
> 
> http://inksupply.com/epson_inkjet_cartridge_chip_resetter.cfm
> 
> http://www.inksupply.com/c82refill.cfm
> 
> Not easy site to navigate and find stuff... but it's all there.
> 
> Good luck!
> 
> Denis  
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Whiting"
> <paulmwhiting@> wrote:
> >
> > I think this is the refill kit the MIS rep meant, I'm not sure, but I
> > suspect so: http://www.inksupply.com/epson_oem_refill_kit.cfm
> > 
> > Unfortunately it appears to be bottom-fill system you warn of. Do you
> > know of any other system, or is the only remaining option to go CFS?
> >
>

Hi all,

I dont know if the reply got through, but I got the carts at
inkjetsoutlet.com they look pretty sturdy, and I ordered ink from MIS to
start to work with, I am using eboni6 in the K position for now, until I
hear from wiser minds on doing multi channel printing. I also ordered
the 1400 dye inks (color) I want to print both color and B&W if I can.
As always and ideas on what is working for you guys

Scott


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "pr_roark"
<pr_roark@...> wrote:
>
>
> I have posted some 1600 dpi scans comparing the 1400 with, for
example,
> the 1800. If my sample is typical, the 1400 could be the best black
> only printer yet. See
>
> http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/1600dpi-Scans.jpg
>
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "niteowl1004" 
<cohen.scott@...> wrote:
>
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> I dont know if the reply got through, but I got the carts at
> inkjetsoutlet.com they look pretty sturdy, and I ordered ink from 
MIS to
> start to work with, I am using eboni6 in the K position for now, 
until I
> hear from wiser minds on doing multi channel printing. I also 
ordered
> the 1400 dye inks (color) I want to print both color and B&W if I 
can.
> As always and ideas on what is working for you guys
> 
> Scott


Scott,

Have you filled, installed and printed with one of the 1400 carts you 
purchased from inkjetsoutlet.com ? Do they work? Any problems? Will 
the chips re-set?

Thanks,
Scott

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "niteowl1004"
<cohen.scott@...> wrote:

Thanks for that link, Scott, I just checked out their website. Were
you able to obtain empty carts? All the carts I found there, at least
for the R1800, are pre-filled. Sorry if I'm missing that part of the
site, but perhaps you can direct me to that area. Thank you!

Paul

> Hi all,
> 
> I dont know if the reply got through, but I got the carts at
> inkjetsoutlet.com they look pretty sturdy, and I ordered ink from MIS to
> start to work with, I am using eboni6 in the K position for now, until I
> hear from wiser minds on doing multi channel printing. I also ordered
> the 1400 dye inks (color) I want to print both color and B&W if I can.
> As always and ideas on what is working for you guys
> 
> Scott
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "pr_roark"
> <pr_roark@> wrote:
> >
> >
> > I have posted some 1600 dpi scans comparing the 1400 with, for
> example,
> > the 1800. If my sample is typical, the 1400 could be the best black
> > only printer yet. See
> >
> > http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/1600dpi-Scans.jpg
> >
> > Paul
> > www.PaulRoark.com
> >
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Whiting"
<paulmwhiting@...> wrote:
Oops, that was niteowl who sent me that link! Thanks, niteowl!

> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "niteowl1004"
> <cohen.scott@> wrote:
> 
> Thanks for that link, Scott, I just checked out their website. Were
> you able to obtain empty carts? All the carts I found there, at least
> for the R1800, are pre-filled. Sorry if I'm missing that part of the
> site, but perhaps you can direct me to that area. Thank you!
> 
> Paul
> 
> > Hi all,
> > 
> > I dont know if the reply got through, but I got the carts at
> > inkjetsoutlet.com they look pretty sturdy, and I ordered ink from
MIS to
> > start to work with, I am using eboni6 in the K position for now,
until I

> > hear from wiser minds on doing multi channel printing. I also ordered
> > the 1400 dye inks (color) I want to print both color and B&W if I can.
> > As always and ideas on what is working for you guys
> > 
> > Scott
> > 
> > 
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "pr_roark"
> > <pr_roark@> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > I have posted some 1600 dpi scans comparing the 1400 with, for
> > example,
> > > the 1800. If my sample is typical, the 1400 could be the best black
> > > only printer yet. See
> > >
> > > http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/1600dpi-Scans.jpg
> > >
> > > Paul
> > > www.PaulRoark.com
> > >
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>

Scott,

> ... I am using eboni6 in the K position for now, ...
> I also ordered the 1400 dye inks (color) I want to print 
> both color and B&W if I can.

In the "old days" with the 1280, we found that the Eboni and dye mixed 
on the parking pad and caused some nuisance clogging.  We found we had 
to rinse the dyes out of the pad to avoid the problem.  You might run 
into the same problem.  

In my 260 I use MIS color pigments, which are compatible with Eboni. 
The color was off, so profiling is needed.

Paul   
www.PaulRoark.com

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "pr_roark"
<pr_roark@...> wrote:
Many apologies everyone, Paul. both Scotts, Denis, and everyone else.
I'm feeling very dumb but I have had trouble navigating this group.
Consequently I found myself ignoring some answers to my questions -
not ignoring really, I just didn't see them because of they way
they were listed. Sometimes I'm sure I repeated questions because I
didn't see the answers. There seem to be several ways of viewing a
thread, and they're not always chronological. Sometimes I go to 'next
message' but it's the next message numerically not chronologically -
so then I find myself in a different thread.

So I've taken some time trying to learn how these threads can be
viewed and I do believe I'm coming up with some answers - they were
there all the time. So, bear with me!

I've been on various forums going way back to CompuServe but somehow I
found that a lot easier to navigate. I've looked at the help menus but
couldn't find much to help - can anyone recommend someplace on Yahoo
that gives a brief tutorial on these groups? Thanks!

>
> Scott,
> 
> > ... I am using eboni6 in the K position for now, ...
> > I also ordered the 1400 dye inks (color) I want to print 
> > both color and B&W if I can.
> 
> In the "old days" with the 1280, we found that the Eboni and dye mixed 
> on the parking pad and caused some nuisance clogging.  We found we had 
> to rinse the dyes out of the pad to avoid the problem.  You might run 
> into the same problem.  
> 
> In my 260 I use MIS color pigments, which are compatible with Eboni. 
> The color was off, so profiling is needed.
> 
> Paul   
> www.PaulRoark.com
>

I believe, Paul, that threading is controlled (or not) by setting a  
preference in your e-mail "client" (I guess it's a client of your  
ISP's server). For example, on my Mac, that piece of e-mail software,  
which is called "Apple Mail" or, internally, simply "Mail", will -  
once set - begin to stack all the e-mails you get on a given subject,  
so that you have them all together, although the ones you've already  
opened are (optionally) obscured beneath the most recent one(s). And  
your replies are interleaved. I _think_ all e-mail software does this  
in essentially the same way but don't know what the non-Apple  
providers call it. But I do think the use of the word "preferences"  
for the settings might be generic. And, at least in Apple software,  
the preference settings come near the beginning of the list of menu  
items, at the opposite end from "help".

Hope this helps.
--
Sam

On May 14, 2008, at 1:19 PM, Paul Whiting wrote:

> [snip]
> Many apologies everyone, Paul. both Scotts, Denis, and everyone else.
> I'm feeling very dumb but I have had trouble navigating this group.
> Consequently I found myself ignoring some answers to my questions -
> not ignoring really, I just didn't see them because of they way
> they were listed. Sometimes I'm sure I repeated questions because I
> didn't see the answers. There seem to be several ways of viewing a
> thread, and they're not always chronological. Sometimes I go to 'next
> message' but it's the next message numerically not chronologically -
> so then I find myself in a different thread.
>
> So I've taken some time trying to learn how these threads can be
> viewed and I do believe I'm coming up with some answers - they were
> there all the time. So, bear with me!
>
> I've been on various forums going way back to CompuServe but somehow I
> found that a lot easier to navigate. I've looked at the help menus but
> couldn't find much to help - can anyone recommend someplace on Yahoo
> that gives a brief tutorial on these groups? Thanks!
>>
>> Scott,
>> [snip]

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Sam McCandless
<samcc@...> wrote:

I see what you're saying, Sam, thanks, that makes sense. However I am
participating in the group on the website, not through e-mail. I'm
slowly catching on however!

Regards,

Paul

> I believe, Paul, that threading is controlled (or not) by setting a  
> preference in your e-mail "client" (I guess it's a client of your  
> ISP's server). For example, on my Mac, that piece of e-mail software,  
> which is called "Apple Mail" or, internally, simply "Mail", will -  
> once set - begin to stack all the e-mails you get on a given subject,  
> so that you have them all together, although the ones you've already  
> opened are (optionally) obscured beneath the most recent one(s). And  
> your replies are interleaved. I _think_ all e-mail software does this  
> in essentially the same way but don't know what the non-Apple  
> providers call it. But I do think the use of the word "preferences"  
> for the settings might be generic. And, at least in Apple software,  
> the preference settings come near the beginning of the list of menu  
> items, at the opposite end from "help".
> 
> Hope this helps.
> --
> Sam
> 
> 
> On May 14, 2008, at 1:19 PM, Paul Whiting wrote:
> 
> > [snip]
> > Many apologies everyone, Paul. both Scotts, Denis, and everyone else.
> > I'm feeling very dumb but I have had trouble navigating this group.
> > Consequently I found myself ignoring some answers to my questions -
> > not ignoring really, I just didn't see them because of they way
> > they were listed. Sometimes I'm sure I repeated questions because I
> > didn't see the answers. There seem to be several ways of viewing a
> > thread, and they're not always chronological. Sometimes I go to 'next
> > message' but it's the next message numerically not chronologically -
> > so then I find myself in a different thread.
> >
> > So I've taken some time trying to learn how these threads can be
> > viewed and I do believe I'm coming up with some answers - they were
> > there all the time. So, bear with me!
> >
> > I've been on various forums going way back to CompuServe but somehow I
> > found that a lot easier to navigate. I've looked at the help menus but
> > couldn't find much to help - can anyone recommend someplace on Yahoo
> > that gives a brief tutorial on these groups? Thanks!
> >>
> >> Scott,
> >> [snip]
>

Yahoo is aptly named.
Comp-U-Serve was great.

gar

*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********

On 5/14/08 at 8:19 PM Paul Whiting wrote:

>--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "pr_roark"
><pr_roark@...> wrote:
>Many apologies everyone, Paul. both Scotts, Denis, and everyone else.
>I'm feeling very dumb but I have had trouble navigating this group.
>Consequently I found myself ignoring some answers to my questions -
>not ignoring really, I just didn't see them because of they way
>they were listed. Sometimes I'm sure I repeated questions because I
>didn't see the answers. There seem to be several ways of viewing a
>thread, and they're not always chronological. Sometimes I go to 'next
>message' but it's the next message numerically not chronologically -
>so then I find myself in a different thread.
>
>So I've taken some time trying to learn how these threads can be
>viewed and I do believe I'm coming up with some answers - they were
>there all the time. So, bear with me!
>
>I've been on various forums going way back to CompuServe but somehow I
>found that a lot easier to navigate. I've looked at the help menus but
>couldn't find much to help - can anyone recommend someplace on Yahoo
>that gives a brief tutorial on these groups? Thanks!
>>
>> Scott,
>> 
>> > ... I am using eboni6 in the K position for now, ...
>> > I also ordered the 1400 dye inks (color) I want to print 
>> > both color and B&W if I can.
>> 
>> In the "old days" with the 1280, we found that the Eboni and dye mixed 
>> on the parking pad and caused some nuisance clogging.  We found we had 
>> to rinse the dyes out of the pad to avoid the problem.  You might run 
>> into the same problem.  
>> 
>> In my 260 I use MIS color pigments, which are compatible with Eboni. 
>> The color was off, so profiling is needed.
>> 
>> Paul   
>> www.PaulRoark.com
>>
>
>
>
>------------------------------------
>
>Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
>they are often being updated.
>
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
>If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
>unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
>page.
>
>Please follow these basic guidelines:
>- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
>them short.
>- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
>Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
>membership without notice.
>- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
>printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from
>the membership.
>- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
>guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner
>and Moderators. See “Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines” in the Files
>section:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
>
>BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
>YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE “OWNER” AND
>“MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO
>YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR
>EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF
>PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE 
>“OWNER” AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN
>ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE
>OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii)
>UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii)
>STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
>YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE
>PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Gary Weaver"
<garww@...> wrote:

(excuse thread drift, everybody)

I go back to the era of ATO and Tapcis... under DOS! Remember those?

> Yahoo is aptly named.
> Comp-U-Serve was great.
> 
> gar
> 
> *********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********
> 
> On 5/14/08 at 8:19 PM Paul Whiting wrote:
> 
> >--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "pr_roark"
> ><pr_roark@> wrote:
> >Many apologies everyone, Paul. both Scotts, Denis, and everyone else.
> >I'm feeling very dumb but I have had trouble navigating this group.
> >Consequently I found myself ignoring some answers to my questions -
> >not ignoring really, I just didn't see them because of they way
> >they were listed. Sometimes I'm sure I repeated questions because I
> >didn't see the answers. There seem to be several ways of viewing a
> >thread, and they're not always chronological. Sometimes I go to 'next
> >message' but it's the next message numerically not chronologically -
> >so then I find myself in a different thread.
> >
> >So I've taken some time trying to learn how these threads can be
> >viewed and I do believe I'm coming up with some answers - they were
> >there all the time. So, bear with me!
> >
> >I've been on various forums going way back to CompuServe but somehow I
> >found that a lot easier to navigate. I've looked at the help menus but
> >couldn't find much to help - can anyone recommend someplace on Yahoo
> >that gives a brief tutorial on these groups? Thanks!
> >>
> >> Scott,
> >> 
> >> > ... I am using eboni6 in the K position for now, ...
> >> > I also ordered the 1400 dye inks (color) I want to print 
> >> > both color and B&W if I can.
> >> 
> >> In the "old days" with the 1280, we found that the Eboni and dye
mixed 
> >> on the parking pad and caused some nuisance clogging.  We found
we had 
> >> to rinse the dyes out of the pad to avoid the problem.  You might
run 
> >> into the same problem.  
> >> 
> >> In my 260 I use MIS color pigments, which are compatible with Eboni. 
> >> The color was off, so profiling is needed.
> >> 
> >> Paul   
> >> www.PaulRoark.com
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >------------------------------------
> >
> >Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other
resources as
> >they are often being updated.
> >
> >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >
> >If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
> >unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting
this same
> >page.
> >
> >Please follow these basic guidelines:
> >- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages
to keep
> >them short.
> >- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
> >Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
> >membership without notice.
> >- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
> >printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be
removed from
> >the membership.
> >- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
> >guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group
Owner
> >and Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files
> >section:
> >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> >
> >BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE
PRINT
> >YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND
> >"MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE
LIABLE TO
> >YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR
> >EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF
> >PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE 
> >"OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN
> >ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i)
THE USE
> >OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii)
> >UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA;
(iii)

> >STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> >YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE
> >PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>

Hi Paul.

Tapcis sounds familiar?? Console is the only way to go. GUI are for the impared. 

We should swap 1-bit photos some day  :  )

CIS 75146.16 - worthless number that I'll never forget  :  )

As archie sang; "tHOSE WERE DA DAYS.."

*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********

On 5/16/08 at 3:04 AM Paul Whiting wrote:

>--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@...m, "Gary Weaver"
><garww@...> wrote:
>
>(excuse thread drift, everybody)
>
>I go back to the era of ATO and Tapcis... under DOS! Remember those?
>
>> Yahoo is aptly named.
>> Comp-U-Serve was great.
>> 
>> gar
>> 
>> *********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********
>> 
>> On 5/14/08 at 8:19 PM Paul Whiting wrote:
>> 
>> >--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "pr_roark"
>> ><pr_roark@> wrote:
>> >Many apologies everyone, Paul. both Scotts, Denis, and everyone else.
>> >I'm feeling very dumb but I have had trouble navigating this group.
>> >Consequently I found myself ignoring some answers to my questions -
>> >not ignoring really, I just didn't see them because of they way
>> >they were listed. Sometimes I'm sure I repeated questions because I
>> >didn't see the answers. There seem to be several ways of viewing a
>> >thread, and they're not always chronological. Sometimes I go to 'next
>> >message' but it's the next message numerically not chronologically -
>> >so then I find myself in a different thread.
>> >
>> >So I've taken some time trying to learn how these threads can be
>> >viewed and I do believe I'm coming up with some answers - they were
>> >there all the time. So, bear with me!
>> >
>> >I've been on various forums going way back to CompuServe but somehow I
>> >found that a lot easier to navigate. I've looked at the help menus but
>> >couldn't find much to help - can anyone recommend someplace on Yahoo
>> >that gives a brief tutorial on these groups? Thanks!
>> >>
>> >> Scott,
>> >> 
>> >> > ... I am using eboni6 in the K position for now, ...
>> >> > I also ordered the 1400 dye inks (color) I want to print 
>> >> > both color and B&W if I can.
>> >> 
>> >> In the "old days" with the 1280, we found that the Eboni and dye
>mixed 
>> >> on the parking pad and caused some nuisance clogging.  We found
>we had 
>> >> to rinse the dyes out of the pad to avoid the problem.  You might
>run 
>> >> into the same problem.  
>> >> 
>> >> In my 260 I use MIS color pigments, which are compatible with Eboni. 
>> >> The color was off, so profiling is needed.
>> >> 
>> >> Paul   
>> >> www.PaulRoark.com
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >------------------------------------
>> >
>> >Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other
>resources as
>> >they are often being updated.
>> >
>> >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>> >
>> >If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
>> >unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting
>this same
>> >page.
>> >
>> >Please follow these basic guidelines:
>> >- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages
>to keep
>> >them short.
>> >- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
>> >Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
>> >membership without notice.
>> >- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
>> >printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be
>removed from
>> >the membership.
>> >- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
>> >guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group
>Owner
>> >and Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files
>> >section:
>> >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
>> >
>> >BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE
>PRINT
>> >YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND
>> >"MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE
>LIABLE TO
>> >YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR
>> >EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF
>> >PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE 
>> >"OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN
>> >ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i)
>THE USE
>> >OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii)
>> >UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA;
>(iii)
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--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "pr_roark"
<pr_roark@...> wrote:
 
> The only place I have a problem is within one inch of the top and 
> bottom edges of the paper.  So, I usually print with wide margins.
> 

Hello Paul,

I have an Epson 1400 on order and just read this message.

If I understand correctly, the maximum image size that can be printed
without banding with an Epson 1400 using 13"x19" paper is 17" on the
long side. 

What about the short side, any restriction there? 

Thanks for all the help,
Andre

Andre wrote:

> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "pr_roark"
> <pr_roark@> wrote:
>  
> > The only place I have a problem is within one inch of the top and 
> > bottom edges of the paper.  So, I usually print with wide margins.
> > 
> 


> I have an Epson 1400 on order and just read this message.
> 
> If I understand correctly, the maximum image size that 
> can be printed without banding with an Epson 1400 using 
> 13"x19" paper is 17" on the long side. 

I'm only talking about the B&W inksets I make/use.  I'm not sure 
about OEM color.  I'm also not sure about all papers, etc.  However, 
I've noticed a pattern that if margins on 1.5 pl printers at top and 
bottom are less than about 1", the probability of microbanding at 
these top and bottom edges is rather high.  It does not affect the 
sides of the print.  It's almost certainly a paper transport issue of 
some type.  The thickness of paper may also be a factor.

By the way, the URL below is to a graph showing the Lab A & B tones 
for the "Matte-Neutral-1" curve used with H. Photo Rag and the 1400 
with the UT-14a beta inkset. 

http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/UT-14a-PhotoRag-Tones.jpg 

A similar straight-line tone curve between paper white and deep 
shadows appears to result when this curve is used to print many matte 
papers.  As such, I'm hopeful that one curve will be enough -- 
particularly when used with Create ICC-RGB -- for many papers.  I'll 
make similar curves for other tones.  Glossy prints of various tones 
as well as 100% carbon matte and glossy (neutral 100% carbon glossy 
prints must be sprayed with Print Shield) are within the UT14a's 
reach without changing inks.  

But, this is still beta and not available from MIS yet.

Paul   
www.PaulRoark.com

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "pr_roark"
<pr_roark@...> wrote:
> It appears the 1400 tends to microband, at least with Black Only 
> printing, if the top border is less than one inch.  I've found some of 
> this with the 1800 also, but less so.  I've speculated that the 1.5 
> picoliter printers are more sensitive to paper feed accuracy, and that 
> they may be best when both sets of rollers are engaged.   

I found the same on my R265!

Just to let you know, I wrote an article (in italian) on my website
about BO with Claria:
http://www.andreaolivotto.com/photo_r265bo_it.php

--
Andrea Olivotto
http://www.andreaolivotto.com

By the way, I loaded Eboni-6 into the 1400 and it ran nearly 
perfectly.  With the Epson driver, Color Controls with gamma 2.2, the 
ramp was just slightly light.  I'd guess many will just use a slight 
slider adjustment to match their monitors.  

The 1400 Eboni-6 paper tones were very close to the C88+ Carbon-13-5.  
See http://inksupply.com/eb6.cfm 

Eboni-6 is sold in bulk by MIS at http://inksupply.com/eb6.cfm 

I also have some notes on Eboni-6 at http://www.paulroark.com/BW-
Info/Eboni-6.pdf  

Paul   
www.PaulRoark.com

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "pr_roark" 
<pr_roark@...> wrote:
>
> By the way, I loaded Eboni-6 into the 1400 and it ran nearly 
> perfectly.  With the Epson driver, Color Controls with gamma 2.2, 
the 
> ramp was just slightly light.  I'd guess many will just use a 
slight 
> slider adjustment to match their monitors.  
> 
> The 1400 Eboni-6 paper tones were very close to the C88+ Carbon-13-
5.  
> See http://inksupply.com/eb6.cfm 
> 
> Eboni-6 is sold in bulk by MIS at http://inksupply.com/eb6.cfm 
> 
> I also have some notes on Eboni-6 at http://www.paulroark.com/BW-
> Info/Eboni-6.pdf  
> 
> Paul   
> www.PaulRoark.com
>

Hi Paul and all!

I started using Eboni-6 in my 1400 in the black position. I have 
done about a dozen prints with the refillable cart I got at 
inkjetsoutlet.com. So far it works very well. Are you using the full 
set (all channels) in your printer? I am using the MIS black only 
setting (one channel)and am getting pretty good results.

> <pr_roark@> wrote:
> >
> > ... I loaded Eboni-6 into the 1400 and it ran nearly 
> > perfectly.  ...


<cohen.scott@...> wrote:
> 
> I started using Eboni-6 in my 1400 in the black position. 
>... with the refillable cart I got at 
> inkjetsoutlet.com. So far it works very well. 

> Are you using the full set (all channels) in your printer? ...

I have the full Eboni-6 set loaded now.  Ofcourse with the full set one 
can either use them or just do an Eboni black only.  I'll have to see 
later when I'll use which approach.  I'm inclined to like the non-OBA 
papers best with the Eboni only and the bright papers with the full set.

I'll also be looking at the possibilities of using just a few of the 
Eboni dilutions with the MK.  The 1400 certainly does not need the full 
6 dilutions for smoothness.  As such, the slightly different tones of 
the different dilutions may end up being one more way to control tone 
while still staying with 100% carbon.  

Paul 
www.PaulRoark.com

maybe there is a heaven for us, after all  :  )

*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********

On 5/28/08 at 7:55 PM pr_roark wrote:

>By the way, I loaded Eboni-6 into the 1400 and it ran nearly 
>perfectly.  With the Epson driver, Color Controls with gamma 2.2, the 
>ramp was just slightly light.  I'd guess many will just use a slight 
>slider adjustment to match their monitors.  
>
>The 1400 Eboni-6 paper tones were very close to the C88+ Carbon-13-5.  
>See http://inksupply.com/eb6.cfm 
>
>Eboni-6 is sold in bulk by MIS at http://inksupply.com/eb6.cfm 
>
>I also have some notes on Eboni-6 at http://www.paulroark.com/BW-
>Info/Eboni-6.pdf  
>
>Paul   
>www.PaulRoark.com

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Gary Weaver"
<garww@...> wrote:
>
> maybe there is a heaven for us, after all  :  )
> 
> *********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********
> 
Gary,

There's more. Paul posted this yesteday:

"By the way, it's not out yet, but by the end of the week the MIS UT14
might be available. It'll be a B&W inkset that is glossy and matte
compatible wihtout changing inks. It's a bit premature -- don't
bother MIS yet with orders -- but see http://www.paulroark.com/BW-
Info/UT14.pdf"

Cheers,
André

andre,

I save so many messages from this group. I suspect I will need a new printer, too  :  )

gar

*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********

On 5/29/08 at 12:35 PM Andre Moreau wrote:

>--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Gary Weaver"
><garww@...> wrote:
>>
>> maybe there is a heaven for us, after all  :  )
>> 
>> *********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********
>> 
>Gary,
>
>There's more. Paul posted this yesteday:
>
>"By the way, it's not out yet, but by the end of the week the MIS UT14
>might be available. It'll be a B&W inkset that is glossy and matte
>compatible wihtout changing inks. It's a bit premature -- don't
>bother MIS yet with orders -- but see http://www.paulroark.com/BW-
>Info/UT14.pdf"
>
>Cheers,
>André

Paul, this msg has really provoked several questions. Since I am new to this "game" I don't understand all the jargon.  So the questions are:
1. What is Claria Black only? I am anxious to try it.
2. I just loaded MIS 1400 in my brand new without flushing the Claria color inkis. Can I expect difficulties?
3.  What did you mean about the Epson and MIS chips being compatable?
Thanking you in advance.
Craig 

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

R Craig Blackman <blac1588@...> wrote:
>
>...
> 1. What is Claria Black only?

Rather than use all the inks, you print with only the one black ink.  Many of the older Epson printers have that option in the normal Epson driver.  However, most of the newer Epson drivers do not have an option to print with black ink only.  However, QuadToneRip -- see http://www.quadtonerip.com/html/QTRoverview.html -- supports the 1400 and allows one to print with only the black ink or any combination of inks you might like.

> 2. I just loaded MIS 1400 in my brand new without flushing the Claria color inkis. Can I expect difficulties?

I'm not sure what inkset you're using, but the MIS inksets like the UT14 are very good.  However, pigments on glossy paper have always had their problems.  They -- the pigments -- tend to just sit on top of the paper and have artifacts like bronzing that detract from  the image.  

> 3.  What did you mean about the Epson and MIS chips being compatable?

My experience with the recent printers and MIS chips (auto reset) is that if the printer has a mix of MIS and Epson chips in it, the printer will not run.  All the chips must be either MIS or Epson.  I was hoping someone would identify a source of third party chips there were, in fact, compatible with the Epson chips so that we could use the Epson Claria K with other, non-Epson carts in the other positions.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

"pr_roark" <roark.paul@...> wrote:
>
> ...
> 
> My experience with the recent printers and MIS chips (auto reset) is that if the printer has a mix of MIS and Epson chips in it, the printer will not run...


I've been informed off list that at least some MIS chips will run in the 1400 with the OEM Epson Claria K cart installed.  Please let me know your experiences.  I'll buy a Claria 1400 K cart also to test the MIS chips I have.

Thanks,

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Regarding the removal of MIS cart: can they be reinstalled and if so, what is the best way to store them?
Craig




________________________________

From: pr_roark <roark.paul@...>
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sun, February 28, 2010 10:09:59 AM
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: 1400

  
"pr_roark" <roark.paul@ ...> wrote:
>
> ...
> 
> My experience with the recent printers and MIS chips (auto reset) is that if the printer has a mix of MIS and Epson chips in it, the printer will not run...

I've been informed off list that at least some MIS chips will run in the 1400 with the OEM Epson Claria K cart installed. Please let me know your experiences. I'll buy a Claria 1400 K cart also to test the MIS chips I have.

Thanks,

Paul
www.PaulRoark. com 




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

R Craig Blackman <blac1588@...> wrote:
>
> Regarding the removal of MIS cart: can they be reinstalled and if so, what is the best way to store them?


Yes, the MIS carts can be removed and re-installed.  Most simply put a piece of tape over the outlet.  I often use a syringe with water in it to rinse the ink off the outlet first.  If they are going to be out for a long time, you might also want to tape over the air inlet.  I put mine in a zip lock bag and store them outlet down.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Paul, thanks a million. You made my day.
Craig




________________________________

From: pr_roark <roark.paul@...>
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sun, February 28, 2010 7:46:26 PM
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: 1400

  
R Craig Blackman <blac1588@.. .> wrote:
>
> Regarding the removal of MIS cart: can they be reinstalled and if so, what is the best way to store them?

Yes, the MIS carts can be removed and re-installed. Most simply put a piece of tape over the outlet. I often use a syringe with water in it to rinse the ink off the outlet first. If they are going to be out for a long time, you might also want to tape over the air inlet. I put mine in a zip lock bag and store them outlet down.

Paul
www.PaulRoark. com 




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I bought a Claria black Epson cart for my 1400 and tried it with the other positions filled with third party carts & chips.  With the Claria K cart installed, the printer would not recognize any of the other carts & chips.  While I have Eboni-6 in most of the other carts, I can't be sure where the carts came from, as I've use both MIS and other third party carts.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "pr_roark" <roark.paul@...> wrote:

>
> "pr_roark" <roark.paul@> wrote:
> >
> > ...
> > 
> > My experience with the recent printers and MIS chips (auto reset) is that if the printer has a mix of MIS and Epson chips in it, the printer will not run...
> 
> 
> I've been informed off list that at least some MIS chips will run in the 1400 with the OEM Epson Claria K cart installed.  Please let me know your experiences.  I'll buy a Claria 1400 K cart also to test the MIS chips I have.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>

Hi

I run the Epson 1400 with the MIS UT-14 inkset and all the cartridges are from MIS (Dec 2009). Just installed the Epson Black cartridge that came with the printer and it installed okay. The five remaining MIS cartridges are still recognized. Printed out a calibration print via QTR and all the inks printed.

One question though will the claria ink cause any problems with the UT-14 pigment ink?

Hope this helps

Jon

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "pr_roark" <roark.paul@...> wrote:

>
> I bought a Claria black Epson cart for my 1400 and tried it with the other positions filled with third party carts & chips.  With the Claria K cart installed, the printer would not recognize any of the other carts & chips.  While I have Eboni-6 in most of the other carts, I can't be sure where the carts came from, as I've use both MIS and other third party carts.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "pr_roark" <roark.paul@> wrote:
> >
> > "pr_roark" <roark.paul@> wrote:
> > >
> > > ...
> > > 
> > > My experience with the recent printers and MIS chips (auto reset) is that if the printer has a mix of MIS and Epson chips in it, the printer will not run...
> > 
> > 
> > I've been informed off list that at least some MIS chips will run in the 1400 with the OEM Epson Claria K cart installed.  Please let me know your experiences.  I'll buy a Claria 1400 K cart also to test the MIS chips I have.
> > 
> > Thanks,
> > 
> > Paul
> > www.PaulRoark.com
> >
>

Paul, you wrote:"With the Claria K cart installed, the printer would not recognize any of the other carts & chips."
How then did you get yr printer to print? 
Craig
cblack@...



________________________________

From: pr_roark <roark.paul@...>
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wed, March 3, 2010 12:20:08 AM
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: 1400

  
I bought a Claria black Epson cart for my 1400 and tried it with the other positions filled with third party carts & chips. With the Claria K cart installed, the printer would not recognize any of the other carts & chips. While I have Eboni-6 in most of the other carts, I can't be sure where the carts came from, as I've use both MIS and other third party carts.

Paul
www.PaulRoark. com 

--- In DigitalBlackandWhit eThePrint@ yahoogroups. com, "pr_roark" <roark.paul@ ...> wrote:
>
> "pr_roark" <roark.paul@ > wrote:
> >
> > ...
> > 
> > My experience with the recent printers and MIS chips (auto reset) is that if the printer has a mix of MIS and Epson chips in it, the printer will not run...
> 
> 
> I've been informed off list that at least some MIS chips will run in the 1400 with the OEM Epson Claria K cart installed. Please let me know your experiences. I'll buy a Claria 1400 K cart also to test the MIS chips I have.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark. com
>




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thanks for the  input. I just asked Paul a q. regarding the Claria K.
Hope between the two replies I will be aok.
Tks 
Craig




________________________________

From: badger346 <jandsblackburn@...>
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wed, March 3, 2010 6:49:15 AM
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: 1400

  
Hi

I run the Epson 1400 with the MIS UT-14 inkset and all the cartridges are from MIS (Dec 2009). Just installed the Epson Black cartridge that came with the printer and it installed okay. The five remaining MIS cartridges are still recognized. Printed out a calibration print via QTR and all the inks printed.

One question though will the claria ink cause any problems with the UT-14 pigment ink?

Hope this helps

Jon

--- In DigitalBlackandWhit eThePrint@ yahoogroups. com, "pr_roark" <roark.paul@ ...> wrote:
>
> I bought a Claria black Epson cart for my 1400 and tried it with the other positions filled with third party carts & chips. With the Claria K cart installed, the printer would not recognize any of the other carts & chips. While I have Eboni-6 in most of the other carts, I can't be sure where the carts came from, as I've use both MIS and other third party carts.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark. com 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhit eThePrint@ yahoogroups. com, "pr_roark" <roark.paul@ > wrote:
> >
> > "pr_roark" <roark.paul@ > wrote:
> > >
> > > ...
> > > 
> > > My experience with the recent printers and MIS chips (auto reset) is that if the printer has a mix of MIS and Epson chips in it, the printer will not run...
> > 
> > 
> > I've been informed off list that at least some MIS chips will run in the 1400 with the OEM Epson Claria K cart installed. Please let me know your experiences. I'll buy a Claria 1400 K cart also to test the MIS chips I have.
> > 
> > Thanks,
> > 
> > Paul
> > www.PaulRoark. com
> >
>




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

R Craig Blackman <blac1588@...> wrote:
>
> Paul, you wrote:"With the Claria K cart installed, the 
> printer would not recognize any of the other carts & chips."

> How then did you get yr printer to print? 

I didn't.  I had to remove the Epson cart.

It sounds like MIS has a type of 1400 cart now that is compatible with the Claria chips.  I just don't have that set of carts.  I'll see if MIS knows what is and is not compatible in their stock.  I ran into this problem with the 260 also.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Hello,
has anyone got experience of PremierArt Velvet BW Fine Art? I was going to order some Alise Photo, but my local supplier hasn't got any in the sheet size I want and I'd be interested to hear from anyone who has used them both, about how they compare.

thanks,
Richard
____________
http://www.richardsmallfield.com

This is MIS's response concerning the mixing of MIS and Epson carts & chips in the 1400:  

"The chips we are using cannot be used with the OEM chips due to compatibility issues.  If you have someone that it is working for it would be the first I have heard of.  The OEM Claria and our claria compatible inks both react very poorly with the Eboni inks, and will cause sludge buildup in the priming system that will eventually cause printer failure.  All of our chips are the same between the pre-filled and empty cartridges."

I'm not sure how some MIS chips can be compatible and others not.  Maybe the firmware in the 1400 has been changed.

I've heard of the Eboni-dye incompatibility before.  That was an issue way back in the 1280 days.  The Eboni-6 base (not Eboni itself) is also said to be a problem with Epson UltraChrome inks.  I suspect the generic C6 type of base avoids some of this.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Thanks, Paul. I remain a bit baffled about using the Claria black only. Eventually, I will work it out.
Craig




________________________________

From: pr_roark <roark.paul@...>
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wed, March 3, 2010 12:55:44 PM
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: 1400

  
R Craig Blackman <blac1588@.. .> wrote:
>
> Paul, you wrote:"With the Claria K cart installed, the 
> printer would not recognize any of the other carts & chips."

> How then did you get yr printer to print? 

I didn't. I had to remove the Epson cart.

It sounds like MIS has a type of 1400 cart now that is compatible with the Claria chips. I just don't have that set of carts. I'll see if MIS knows what is and is not compatible in their stock. I ran into this problem with the 260 also.

Paul
www.PaulRoark. com 




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

R Craig Blackman <blac1588@...> wrote:
>
> I remain a bit baffled about using the Claria black only. 

To make the Claria BO profiles for the 260, I had to install an entire set of Claria inks.

As a practical matter, I'll probably ignore the inks unless Epson makes a Claria printer that uses large carts and sells the inks at prices that are comparable to current large cart ink prices.  

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

pr_roark schreef:
> R Craig Blackman <blac1588@...> wrote:
>> I remain a bit baffled about using the Claria black only. 
> 
> To make the Claria BO profiles for the 260, I had to install an entire set of Claria inks.
> 
> As a practical matter, I'll probably ignore the inks unless Epson makes a Claria printer that uses large carts and sells the inks at prices that are comparable to current large cart ink prices.  
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com 
> 
> 

If I recall it correctly the Epson B500DN + B300 have big carts with 
Claria.
CMYK only though.



-- 
Met vriendelijke groeten,   Ernst


Dinkla Gallery Canvas Wrap Actions

|      Dinkla Grafische Techniek      |
|         www.pigment-print.com        |
|                 ( unvollendet )                 |

pr_roark schreef:
> R Craig Blackman <blac1588@...> wrote:
>> I remain a bit baffled about using the Claria black only. 
> 
> To make the Claria BO profiles for the 260, I had to install an entire set of Claria inks.
> 
> As a practical matter, I'll probably ignore the inks unless Epson makes a Claria printer that uses large carts and sells the inks at prices that are comparable to current large cart ink prices.  
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com 
> 
> 

My mistake. Durabrite they have.

-- 
Met vriendelijke groeten,   Ernst


Dinkla Gallery Canvas Wrap Actions

|      Dinkla Grafische Techniek      |
|         www.pigment-print.com        |
|                 ( unvollendet )                 |

Hi

Thanks for the info. I put the Eboni cartridge back in and the 1400 appears to be printing okay.

One thought though - if I put a cleaning cartridge in the black position to clean the printhead and remove the pigment claria mix, does anyone think that it would be feasible to have the Claria black using one print head with the other five pigment cartridges using the other print heads? The Claria black would only be used by itself using QTR.

Whilst trying out the Claria black with QTR last night I produced a BO profile for Ilford Gallerie Smooth Gloss. If anybody wants a copy let me know. (It's similar to my UT-14 C & LC profile but more glossy & a bit darker)

Jon

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "pr_roark" <roark.paul@...> wrote:

>
> This is MIS's response concerning the mixing of MIS and Epson carts & chips in the 1400:  
> 
> "The chips we are using cannot be used with the OEM chips due to compatibility issues.  If you have someone that it is working for it would be the first I have heard of.  The OEM Claria and our claria compatible inks both react very poorly with the Eboni inks, and will cause sludge buildup in the priming system that will eventually cause printer failure.  All of our chips are the same between the pre-filled and empty cartridges."
> 
> I'm not sure how some MIS chips can be compatible and others not.  Maybe the firmware in the 1400 has been changed.
> 
> I've heard of the Eboni-dye incompatibility before.  That was an issue way back in the 1280 days.  The Eboni-6 base (not Eboni itself) is also said to be a problem with Epson UltraChrome inks.  I suspect the generic C6 type of base avoids some of this.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>

Hi,
I live in the SW corner of the Denver Metro area (Coalmine and Wadsworth).
I am replacing my 280 with a new printer.
The 280 is set up with the MIS inks.
I have the MIS cartridges and about half a bottle of each ink.
There may be one or two plugged nozzles.

If someone is willing to meet me I will give them the printer.

We need to do this soon so the inks don't plug up.

Mike J.

Richard, this may be a bit late in responding, but I found the paper you mentioned to be an excellent one for BW. I have ordered some for myself.
Craig




________________________________

From: Richard Smallfield <rich_s@richardsmallfield.com>
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wed, March 3, 2010 1:00:23 PM
Subject: [Digital BW] PremierArt Velvet BW

  
Hello,
has anyone got experience of PremierArt Velvet BW Fine Art? I was going to order some Alise Photo, but my local supplier hasn't got any in the sheet size I want and I'd be interested to hear from anyone who has used them both, about how they compare.

thanks,
Richard
____________
http://www.richards mallfield. com




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